MEETING WITH (DELETED)

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00146198
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 5
• Document Creation Date: January 17, 2025
• Document Release Date: January 15, 1983
• Publication Date: August 7, 1975

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MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
SUBJECT: Meeting with! "
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7 Aug,ast 1975
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1. 110/DDS&T) and I met withE
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!yesterday. He met us at the airpo-rt
' and took us to his home Nvhere we had our discussion, returning us
to the airport for our flight back to Washington. �
!stated that he had a copy of his �correctecl
transcipt of a telephone coiiVersation with David Senn of the
�Rockefeller Commission. 'We told hirn that our interest was 130t
� in the dastro operation, .as such. However, the report thee-, �
land I did in 1967 (he recalled being intervieiVed by us) did
provide some leads- to a new subject ofinterest. The 1967 report
referred to his involvement in August through October of 1960
� with the treatment of some cigars. The record showed that those
cigars were never used and were destroyed by him after the retire-
ment of Col. Edwards in Tune of 1963. We told him that the.. record -
also showed that in February 1961 he had tested some.pillsV. �
1 -1 He remembered both. these � -
-incidents.. We told him that our question was how he happened to
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". know to go to � � for these materials.. The significance.
. of this question now is that the Agency is. trying to reConstruct a
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relationship that TSD had with Fort Detrick.
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3� r )first showed us his transcript, which is v .in ery
general terms, but that is meaningful if one is familiar with. his
peripheral role in the Caslso affair. It reported the receipt of
the cigars and delivery VA.' . . � ��-las well as thpir return to him -
after being treated. It also recorded his experimenting with the �
pills!. * " -71 When interviewed by Belin*&_ i ' ,- - -7. Istated
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that e did not know what materials were used in treating the cigars.
His description of ther - ]test, in talking with Bann, described
� the unsatisfactory nature of the-test. I toldC that in 1967 :-� "
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[..- --., -had told.i.ls that the material was botulinum to which.-
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which possihly expla-eneel th. un.-
salis factory results of his test'.
1.�0�4
4. 1 idescribed how he first came to be involved with
the people in TSD. He wasnteiestcd in developing a system, of
type-identity of individuals1
;
Through this interese,
became familiar with! jar TSD. They developed �
some 50 packages of Eype-identification materials. He does not �
know what happened to this system, and suspects that they may��
have been destroyed by persons Who did not have the same intprest
in the concept as he. As a matter of interest, there were other � �
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forms of identiRca.tion,E . , , .
1 .......
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.....lassumaed that TSD was doing work at Detrick. ..fie
C. �
was nev t t
e� r told. this directly, but felhat work was bsing� done.
there. H&-was x,tnt familiar with the
xecog,nized the � digraph. / �
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although he ..
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A.
\� �� to.. � � . ..." . � .. .
. . . , . � . . � . ... / . . �
�, � � � : � - .7 . . ' �
. 6-- 1:: - . Istated that in the late l950S.. (perhaps around :���
1957) someone in the �DDI invited a number of inter-Agency (sicY.
� people to go out to Detrick for a three-day program. . That wa.; ...- _ ..:.� �-�::.`
prior to the time,. according to his recollection, that Detrick . -.:. ..�.:.-.;.-.,!..t......
. constructed the cinder block building that it used later for a good ,.:---...." � . .
' deal of its special work. He saw the building ata later date.' ,It .
� was built quite close to the road and he felt it could easily be
. sabotaged. SomeOne could hit it with a bazooka iyhicliwould....."
. "colle.p.se the vacuum system" which would lead to con.siderable.
- trouble by the release of bacteria. 17.7:. -, ...31oes���� not recall. . .
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knowing any one at Port Detrick, aft-hough he hadi�-..;:...;::_::.-.....F ;...-.0
. .
. . � � ��� � ' � j He did not want to go . .
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out there in any event, because the micro-biologists were'"parading" .
� and he might become identified with it. He stated that he knew that ..,.:
TSD had direct access to Detrick, and ano to NIII, but. that he cannot 7-
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answer today how he knew. � � '
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�_ 8, I felt that he consideredi 7and,
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(the latter now deceased) as friendly competitors. He seemed to
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hold a different opinion ofr /about whom 11.e was '
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critical for public statements that I understands he cu.rrently
-: is niakingr
- ' with! .
� becap.sei
\felt that he could deal directly
1 but he had to keep(: ifrom knovricr n this
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' *0'42'
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!insisted on people dealing only with him.
ana managed to conduct some informal business this way_
1 :fat that perhaps the best person with knowledge was a man ���
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�who had the ."best brains" and an overall responsibility in TSD.
- He gave us the following name and 'address: � � � - � �-�
Bissell's- This explainedr --. lassociation with a variety of
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-proposals- He said that he coy.1(1 talk withr i who had "lots
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of ideas." I-Iis, I :role �SQemed to be a sort of fez-isibility
X CVICW� The DDP called him-in from time to time to check the
Admiral Raborn had promised someone that there would be a .. -� -. I
.. feasibility of ideas from a inecli9a1 point of view. As an exarnple,
% TSD - - -- I
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1
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* .9- We talked about[ ____Iparticipation in the treatment of : z
the cigars and the making of the pills. We asked how he happened
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- to know to go toE ' -1 Given the nature of the material 'We . "
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hoped that it indicated some knowledge on his part of vhat was. -����-
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under development at Detrick. He thinks that Col. Edwards
�, � came to him and suggested it. I--Id viewed his role in this instance..
as serving asE .. .... .
,.. ' " ' - �: - �� -1..--. -; - .� � - . ' 8 � - I . � 1 It also provided the medical screen-for reviewing the
concept of what XSD offered. Col. Edwards would have told him.- . .
to go to _TSD or i 'land would not have mentionedc ....-.z...- �� s by
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�name. . . �
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7, I recalled thatr-- aopointed Special.
Scientific Advisor to DDP Bissell, and that his office was adjoining
failed on this, a.ndt 7was called in. 'His pa.rticipation led to P-
successful conclusion of the investigation and the system is used
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in police work today, according' to him.
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use of drugs in connection with interrogation and ptograms in defense
against drugs.
11. We asked if heltnew at a He sa.id that he had .
worked with. him on one prom. ' _
. � In reviewing the materials! _
- came to believe that it woulc.fTiot servo the purpose claimed :and
"a group of us worked against it." They proved that they were
--7 ,. �.,
� right. L f"didn't like this" and'. said he never really
. worked with 125.6. again. There was a man involVed in some way with .
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' this by the name of C ....-(spelling uncertain). � .. ' �
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12. r -Italked about other things that he did. He referred
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to. the case ofi . : .
_.'�
c:;e5
-. � 10. Vie asked' 1if he had any knowledge of tbe Agency
funding for the Detrick progra-th or for construction of the building
there. He said he had none. � The, only knowledge that he had of th..
TSD 'budget was 1.vher; he once�saw some papers dealing with a
contract withr .� �
1 This was a program concerned with
� 1 He said that he talked to no
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lease officers on operations without approval, .so far as. operations �
1
- are concerned. i �
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'13. jsaid that he was 'familiar with delivery systerns
that had been. developed for application of certainynaterials. He � .
lake* about the microbioinoculator (dart system) 2..;n.d related it to
the application of tranquilizers to elseants, lions and tigers. He �
;as familiar with . an E � �� He said that he had lobbied
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to =take sure that these systems were not used on humans.
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� ft.: . 14. l'tre summarized fo-r{ what he had told us asking
... - if it was correct that he had no direct knov/ledge or involvement
in the TSD program. at Detrick4 that his knowledge -,.-as indirect,
1,,�ing, related to specific instaes. He stated that this \vas correct.
.., :
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S. D. Breckinridge'g it �
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