(DELETED) INTERVIEW WITH. RE OPINIONS ON INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Keywords: MKULTRA
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00146372
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: January 17, 2025
• Document Release Date: January 15, 1983
• Publication Date: February 28, 1952

6-, Office Memorandum � UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO 1 Via t FROM sutijECT: irD meaning of -secrecy, Set out below. are a stance, the. details 1. On Tue erview wi A DATE: - interview with. February 1952 26 Februar 12 2, the writer had an extended in- i67h1s office in the terview, exclusive of some research in and examination a library and files, lasted frcm approximately 10!.3u A�l to 5:00 PM. The intern w.aid on through the Contact Eranch but ' introductions as in the interview were reaarded as unnecessary. No difficulties were encountered in this matter. ....' � '-'�'4:7/ rr:�:.:::,--....':.��7 r., .L., ir}t-,.;:..,...7 :N.,;;- '�.;:t.'4- . '' c :-Lisr.1-' . :.. .. ` , _ is extremely active, moves and talks rapidly, appears ...,. ign y Intelligent, and throughout the lonF interview was courteous, amiable, and �n. � Po-operative. After establishing in the writer's Was competent and thoroughly unclerstocd the the writer opened up and discussed positive matters. series of questions a '. we s ' ch cover, in sub- of the interview with -.1...007.'..qr ....-.-.4, ',,,,,......!; P Concerning the reneral problem of the so-called "truth serums", what are your views as-to our using these tech- niques? A: I consider that we are at war at the present time and we must assume that the other side is using drugs, coercion, torture, hypnosis, and all other related elements for their purposes. I think we should be willinr to tnke chances to rain our end r, 1 do noL believr! it. would 1,e too darling if they found we were using drugs or other methods of gaining information. Certainly, the Soviets I t 1:1vvy+ , . t4(41.0,,vi .1.YA � .! 0)f ^ � .� 16;01*"' tCt,r jito4t- :frtk r ! ep.�. r.: 04;', estIttfv't � :42414 � believe that we will try the same methods thPy are using and, if we (3c:hit, we would be foolish. L thin it es- sential that ydur Af7,ency be prepared to use these methods. i think you should support long-range experimentation and you certainly should be prepared to attack problems with the best, possible information and techniques that you have at hand immediately. Q: Do you have an interest in the ::idzenLy case or related ones and do you have any ideas as to how these things ...are produced? A: Yes. If you will note in my paper (paper is attached), I have -given considerable thought to the L'iovieL trials. while I do not believe anyone knows specifically how these things are brought about, I think they are brsught ateat possibly by torture, duress, drugs, hypnosis, and ether related methods such as exhaustion, fatigue, and dietary deficiencies. In addition, as: you khi;:, the � oviets do not hesitate to take a long time tp.conditien � their 7ubjects. Frobably you will never have to resort to this. As I see it, your main interest would be in obtaining information from unwilling people and, if possible, preventing your people from givinii,.informa- tion if taken by the other side. You have worked with the so-called "truth serums" will you comment on them? A: "arlth serums" are not serums in any sense of the word. ahoy are drugs or chemicals and they do not always pro- duce the truth. t believe your Agency should use this method to net information. Derrina; the Chicago-Lyi.:e third-degree, which I know you won't use, there is no way of extracting infcrmation successfully from a re- calcitrant and stubborn witneU: There may be other methods but I do not know of any results along these lines such as sound, shock, etc. � I. � .�4� - � . �� , 4. - . - � � ;?...".74:�;.: -414-c-Ic4wy-,Aft , - - - , " � .11t1;' , t7 4 . � in many cases, of course, ptrallol his answers in the attached document. 44,7r l+e�rte 13 What drugs or chemicals do you feel should he tried A: T, nernonally, have done almoat nil of my work with scoroiamine as you will not, from my paper, although do have some knowledge of the barbiturate drugs. However, if I were attacking a given case at the pre- sent time and if a good anesthetist were available, i would try the barbiturate drugs, amytal or pcnto- thal, in preference to scopolamine. think they would be more effective. I have read Dr. Janes H. 4ATTH7'451 paper and he had amazing results. His re- sults were better than mine since he claims 100. am dubious of such high results with recalcitrant subjects. I do not know of any "wonder" drugs or .. "new" drugs and it is my belief that you should stick to something that you know is at least partial- ly succcszful before trying experimental methods that may not work. What technique have you used to obtain information? A: I again refer you to my paper. As I mentioned above, U3'!d sccpolamine in almost all my cases wnch num- bered about forty, and I would say the work was about 50, successful. I, personally, injected the.sooeola- mine after making it myself. I did not u5e6a.tuba but made an individual subcutaneens injectiolrl*each time. (;ee details in attached paper and later statements.) A: Have you ever used hypnosis in connection with drugs? I. know nothing about hypnosis personally and have neve Jed it. In some of my early eXperiments with have watched him, try it but he did not laNe any luck. At that tim6110110rilnew nothing about hypnosis. I've heard of.iCi7eing used and think it has merit. I believe "that a person under hypnotic control would give much more accurate in- formation than a person under the influence of a drug. Certainly it should be tested and tried and used if found to be successful. Have you ever used electroshock or any other sini- lar type instrument along these lines? � �����Vf � !owl; 7.FWN I.,4� .4.141:�4 ky,1,1 t. 1.0���.�����4 � 0171' ;' 1161' '� ,'�it� Ifni � � 3. .3', 1.� ���� � P�P f ' � '� ; e '-' � .� � 4 ;c"- � � � ' � � ;;k411-497411rePt la A: Definitely not, and I no infernet].nn cr anyone trying elf.etroshock in this connection. (Hr fur- ther information along those lines see lat,.2.r. -Have you ever used drugs or other techniques using interpreters? A: No, but I lost one case that I can clearly recall for failure to have an interpreter )resent. 'Do you have or have you ever heard of any advanced technical means or instruments that could he used for obtaining information? A: No. I believe that drugs are the best bet. You should check all the ideas, of course. Do you care to comment, on the third-degree: 4,1 ik were faniliar with police third-degree methoris in your police work as a source of information -- is it of value? A: A third doree, if carrie'l far �enouith,will p:oduce a confession or information hut, lar4 won't be worth anything. A nersen will confess to anything to escape torture if carried out long enougn. Our Government should not use these methods. Some better method can be found. (,!: In your toxicological and criminal exneriences, huve you ever run across a "wondor" dru: or an:one who claims to have found. a "wonder" drug for our type of use? A: No. I doubt, if they exist. I;douLL if the '6oviets have any "wonder" drugs. I have heard of experi- mental use of little-known drugs, but I am certain we are familiar with anything they have. There are lots of drugs that will produce hallucinations, mental disturbances, etc., but they will not 6ivc, you accurnto., useful infOrmfltion. Nescrd, 1-rmn.!- drine, o;)ium, hahesh, alcohol, and numercJus 0thur-3 will unset the mind, but I do not 'believe they will serve your purpose. I have never heard of lysergic acids being used in this connection, but they will affect the mind -- whether they can be de;..v.elod ror your type of use, 1 cannot say. They are dan- gerous, generally speaking. Do you ever use the polygraph in your work? Do you have any special information relative this device - or similar devices or any new devices along poly- graph lines? roe A: No I do not wory with the Polygraph - .with this instrumen . it 1., very valuable if properly handled. I do not know of any new poly- graph devices or any new attachments. I hnve .heard that some _work is .being done along lines of � 'this. kind at Q: Would you name some individuals who might be help- ful in our work? A: I believe you should consul Heia � close friend of mine and if he could not giveo^ou B direct information, he would know individuals who have done work along your lines. He is reliable. 5 A., I tlti.nk -ou.sho ld ttem* to procure the service o From what I know.4out him, he is a young N.J. and extremely intereoCed in your type of work. He should be valuable. I be- lieve he is in the but but I do not know where. with th_ ganization is familiar with should see him and you can get fro. quite noss: )1v tape recordings I believe you should see. In my opinion, he in one in the United States or- work. You full deta.ls and o . work � ,chiatrists and has a very large pri- vate practice. He will not handle a case unless he is interested. He would know about all tyres of drugs, probably hypnotism, and certainly would know about electroshock or if he didn't, he would know the best man for you to see. He does know about drugs and criminal work and I am certain that if he knew of your interest he would very gladly co-operate with you. � � � [,* 1'1 4: r, A% 4.; rir! 6.1f.. � es. I � [5/6 You should see � 46 at present. I believe he is retired fro' /1041110111.018111041 . He has a good backgroun, of this work and I have worked with him in these mat- ters. I am sure he would be very co-operative. and h You should obtain from nesis was written.b should have soma interesting ir ormation for you. {Already requested by this office.) ould contac � and anr i3 an outstanding anesthetist. He'wculd � be ,.;ery co-operative and he would speak with A greats deal of authority. Q: A: There is a iose first name I fon;et, whom aria he'iwalin.a with is considered one of till, lest an,�.7t.L.:tists in the United States. He is an intelli4ent man and I am certain he would co-operate. You should see one of the ou States. tanding 7n my opinion, he is neuroloRistt in the United � , He has private offices Ay is generally there.. You should about electroshock and drug usaaes. sure, would co-operate if.he understood ��� Do you know' : n I know the name only, he is a close working relationship witi Q: Do you kna A: No. I have heard of him only. -6- 0.41� your him 'I am problem. and we have no � � 40.�"�:�: ���4 � k;�� �.< ���� � 4 I 140 .; 6 � Q: Would you cnrt to give me any additional infor- mation on your use of scopolamine? _A: I will refer you to my paper (attached). As I mentioned, I believe I was 50:4J miccessful on veri- fiable information. In using scopolamine, you must never frame a question so that the answer suggents itself. Because of an individual's reaction under scopolamine, he is very liable to repeat a question if the question suggests the answer. Scopolamine � J. know .shortens the memory for recent events. When your subject is under scopolamine and reaches the point of "picking thins out of the air" or "dusting imaginary specks off his clothing" or "brushing ima- ginary bugs off himself", you have reached, in gen- eral, the proper point of questioning. In addition, at this point, I have found that the subject's mind will become blank as far as memory is concerned of the questions asked when the effects of the drug wear off. dF After a considerable number of exnerimental uses of scopolamine, I cameto the decision that best results came when I started injecting 1/100 of a grain and then followed it at intervals of about t'nt.v minutes by 1/200 of a grain. I closely follow th4.,1se and. watch the flushed condition of the individual's face at all times. I personally injected the scopolamine each time. Another hint, you should always have an individual on whom you are going to use scopolamine or any other drur.; empty his bladder before the tests. Certainly this is true in scopolamine. 'i.eep your questions short and frame your questions so that they will re- quire short answers. Long questions that will require long answers may produce rambaing. As a matter of fact, if a long answer is fequ,ixed, an individual under scopolamine will often forget what he was talking about in the first place and the answer will be useless. Here are four items that I think yod should always know when using scopolamine or probably other drugs: 1) Your subject should be in good physical condition, if possible. � 2) You should always uce small dcsala at all times -- take your time, th.mIgh it may take hours. The results may be bettor. 3) Particularly for scopolaaline, you should use fresh solutions only. The powder, scopolamine hydro-bromide should not be mixed in advance with the water and I 're- lieve that when you obtain this powder, you should make certain that it is fresh and never use it if it has been made up for 24 hours. I always wrote t( nd re- quested fresh powder fromi them and I al- ways made up my solutions immediately before using them. 4) You should watch the individual's blood pressure carefully. I would not, under .any circumstances, rive scopolamine any individual having high-blood pressure un- less it did not matter. From your point of view and underatanding cu problem as ycu now do, do you care to comment on t1;04;roblem of research in general? A: I think your Agency should support carefully controlled, long-range research in drugs, chemicals, etc. I think long-range research, properly conducted, is esoehtiol and it should cover all possible fields including chemi- cals, electronics, sound, etc. Particulcrly, I think your.lonr-range research should very carefully re- ILL tho older and well-known drugs such as the bar- biturates. cuite. often researchers overlock vital in- formation in a search for Somethinr: "new". 77..e-.;.rodecta of old and known chemicals wil}_quite often be what we are looking for. I do not feel that there is a good chance of turning up a "wonder" drug, but every effort should be made to find new and advanced methods. As far as short-range work or immediate proh)oms are ccncerned, as I have mentioned to you before, you should attack with the methods :Mt can uae boa L. I would use the barbiturate drugs themselves at the pre- sent time. There may be others that are useful, but I have not heard of them. It would be criminal to wreck a case tryinr an experiment, particulari7.-if the I - information was vital. � a Concerning this discussion generally, have you any suggestions to make? be valuable and I b by a discussion wit} I would like to mention the I he1ivjf your budvc.t would allow it, a trip to would start on t is trip In th- connection ' s an intelligent man and 1 'on' t. want to soy anything against him, but I don't believe it would be profitablc or advisable .for you to interview him. Tly reasons are based on '.what I know of the man personally. writer has !t died a number . published works and although of general interest, contained nothing of great value from our loint of view. Exactly* why recommends agains' is unknown to the writer, but it er d that the opinion o is Riven to consid- erable exaggeration and might not be adverse to publicity.- . Li. The writer did onch the subject of consultant services undoubtedly, woul if re- made in the interview is at present extremely busy. The question of whethe would be valuable for training any of our people would appear answered in the negative, since he has worked mainly with scopolnmine and his information has been, in the opinion of the writer, pretty well covered. on 5 41. to quested, but, based atcments -9- afir �tr � � to be t't I !oft 5... As mentioned above, throurhout the lonr:: interview .;-----4-'-'0- C......q1tIONSWas extremely co-operative and showed a rnL interest in Ine � matters under discussion. He gave a number of domqents Le the writer which will be photootated and incorporated in our files. lid permit.ted the writer to examine his entire library and personal files reFIrding this subject and appeared to be at all times very frank and honest in his manner. The writer concluded the interview by ac7ain discucIF,- 44j wk that. oirent of secrecy in the or and is of the opinion at dan be totally trusted. :4� 1 '''; � 9.: � � :S. I',,:. 1 . � Mlo :70 44,