KUWAITI PAPER INTERVIEWS LIBYA'S AL-QADHDHAFI

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400059-7
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 1, 2012
• Sequence Number: 59
• Publication Date: September 19, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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Kuwaiti Paper Interview Libya's al-Qadhdhafi
GF201 /00 Kuwait AL-QABAS in Arabic l9 Sep 85
PP l0, ll. 1S QT
[Interview with Libyan leader Mu`ammar al Oa dhaf by
Muhammad Jasim al-Sagr, AL-QABAS chief editor, in Tripoli
-date not given]
[Text] This interview with Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi, leader of
the Libyan revolution, took place after midnight in the same tent
in which he had received Syrian Vice President `Abd al-Halim
Khaddam a little earlier. Khaddam visited Tripoli in order to
inform him of the results of the efforts of the Arab reconciliation
committee.
As usual, Al-Qadhdhafi was frank during the confrontational
dialogue and head-to-head talk with AL-QABAS chief editor
Muhammad Jasim al-Sagr. He was extremely frank in answer-
ingthe questions posed by AL-QABAS. The questions themselves
were bold and confrontational regarding the Libyan leader's
stands, ideas, political analyses, and pan-Arab initiatives. The
dialogue does not need a long introduction. It is long and frank
and cannot be summarized in a few lines. Following is the
interview, word for word, as recorded:
AL-QABAS: To begin with, we would like you to be patient
with the questions that we will ask during this meeting. In fact
they express the opinion of the simple, ordinary man in the Arab
street. We also hope that brother Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi will
tolerate some expressions of wonder that might appear to be in
poor taste or exceed the known limits in an open dialogue with
an Arab leader.
AI-Qadhdhafi: You are welcome. As you know, I speak with
utter frankness. I have nothing to hide. A short while ago [heard
some radio stations saying that [was the target of an assassina-
tion attempt. I do not understand how they can broadcast such
fabricated reports.
AL-QABAS: Actually we have not heard such a report. By the
way, what is your comment on such assassination reports?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Anybody can be the target of assassination. It
is not a process that is rejected. Valiant men, cowards, traitors,
and free men alike might be subjected to assassination. Even
prophets were subjected to it. AI-Sadat was assassinated. An
assassination can be carried out by a nonentity such as `Abd
al-Rahman ibn Muljim, who assassinated `Ali ibn Abu Talib [the
fourth Muslim caliph] or a valiant man like Khalid al-Islambuli,
who assassinated AI-Sadat. However, when there is no assassina-
tion and news is fabricated about it, then it becomes ridiculous.
Egyptian papers rejoice in such a method and fabricate reports
that are totally unfounded -coups d'etat, involvements, execu-
tions.
AL-QABAS: What are the facts about the recent rebellion
against you, as reported by an Egyptian newspaper?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Let us suppose that some military units dis-
obeyed the orders I issued to attack Tunisia, as they say. The
rebels aside, has the attack actually taken place'? [laughs]
AL-QABAS: Brother Mu`ammar, before we begin to ask ques-
tions, we have noticed that brother `Abd al-Halim Khaddam has
been with you. No doubt he has come to inform you of the results
of the efforts of the Arab reconciliation committee chaired by
[Saudi crown prince] Prince `Abdallah ibn `Abd al-`Aziz. Is it
possible to learn what took place during your meeting with
Khaddam?
AI-Qadhdhafi: He has actually put us in the picture with
regard to the activity of the committee. However, our objective
analysis of the issue is that when there is a bilateral dispute,
reconciliation can be achieved between the two sides when one
party or the other makes a concession and the problem is resolved.
When the disagreement is a political and essential one regarding
pan-Arab causes, however, then reconciliation does not work.
This means that it is not a matter for reconciliation. The dis-
agreement with Syria, for instance, is not one over borders or
matters of friction and other problems which respond to reconcili-
ation.Not atall, the disagrement isover apan-Arab cause. There
will never be a reconciliation unless one of the parties backs down
from its treasonous stands, or the other party moves from a
correct stand to treason. How can you have reconciliation
between a steadfast party and a treasonous one. To those who
speak of Arab fraternity, I say there is no fraternity in such
matters.
AL-QABAS: Can we achieve a minimum of agreement on
basic issues, in preparation for the holding of the future Arab
summit in Saudi Arabia?
AI-Qadhdhafi: These are, in reality, tranquilizers. Even the
convening of the summit is a tranquilizer and does not resolve
essential issues. All the Arabs have unity of soil and political
unity [as published]. This means that there must necessarily be a
clash. The motto of unity and confrontation is what imposes itself
on us. It is possible for us and Tunisia to reconcile the issue of
the Tunisian workers or the issue of borders or tourism. If Libya
has expelled Tunisians, this is a matter on which one party can
make a concession and reconciliation can follow. However, when
the disagreement is over the pan-Arab cause, then there is no
room for reconciliation. How can one reconcile with AI-Sadat,
who recognized Israel, when we do not recognize something
called Israel at all?
AL-QABAS: We are talking about the minimum level of
agreement among Arab countries. We know that there are red
lines that cannot be exceeded. However, differences are sweeping
through the entire Arab world, differences among governments.
Why should the Arab people suffer from this tragic situation?
The Arab people have good intentions and reject this situation
we now face due to the continued differences among Arab rulers
and governments.
AI-Qadhdhafi: This supports the theory of the people saving
themselves from governments and rulers so that they can survive.
The people will live and there will be no problem. If governments.
armies, and organs go, popular congresses and committees will
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? j.
be set up as part of the masses system of each state. Peace will
be established in the Arab world, indeed in the entire world,
because people do not harbor ill intentions toward each other and
do not invade each other. We hope that Arab governments,
parliaments, parties, classes, and even Arab armies defeated in
wars will disappear and be replaced by armed people and Arab
masses who do not harbor malice. This is our call for unity of the
Arab masses.
AL-QABAS: On the occasion of the 16th anniversary of the 1
September revolution, you proposed the theory that democracy,
rule by the people, means that the people govern themselves
instead of being represented. It is said that this experiment will
probably succeed in Libya, for example, because Libya is not
densely populated, but would be difficult to implement in other
Arab countries with high population density. What is your
comment?
Al-Qadhdhafi: On the contrary. A small country can be gov-
erned by central rule; it is passible for the ruler to steer things
from the capital. The masses system becomes necessary when the
population is large; it is not feasible for the leaders in Beijing to
rule 1 billion people living in the PRC. The world Jamahiriyah
means autonomous rule or popular rule and comprehensive self
rule because the masses rule themselves. A state council in
Beijing cannot be familiar with all the PRC's problems without
bases of local rule in each region. Also, in India we find that the
central government in New Delhi is unable to rule Punjab and
other provinces in India because the larger the population and
the larger the country, the greater the need for a masses system.
AL-QABAS: But when the population is not large there will not
be many popular committees. In big countries like the PRC and
India, popular committees will be many; this will lead to disorder
and mismanagement.
Al-Qadhdhafi: No, No. Congresses and committees every-
wheremean popular congresses and popular committees here and
there. These committees can meet and form general committees.
It is passible for all the committees to form another general
committee, according to the size of the population. The larger the
country and the denser the population, the greater the need for
the masses system because the world is moving toward popular
rule. The future is for popular rule and the people will achieve it.
This is now very clear all over the world, wherever opposition
expands and wherever its participation in ruling becomes larger
instead of the decisionmaking being kept confined to the individ-
ual and the autocrat. What is taking pace now shows that all
classes of people seek to participate in the rule and that opposition
movements are becoming larger and are turning into fronts. This
movement cannot halt in the middle of the road; it will not stop
before all the people achieve rule. You can see with your own eyes
that rule moves from one party to two parties and then to three
or four, until participation moves from the bottom to the top, like
a cone. This march continues and is inevitable; the masses are
now participating in the rule. Parliamentary experiments are
becoming ridiculous and parliamentary representation has
proven false, because there cannot be representation for the
people when the people are there. Parliamentary experiments are
dying; they are in one world and the people are in another.
AL-QABAS: Brother leader, we want to speak about Kuwaiti-
Libyan relations. These relations are characterized by stability
and mutual fraternal understanding between two political lead-
erships in fraternal countries. Considering your meetings with
the Kuwaiti officials, what is your assessment of Libyan-Kuwaiti
relations and what is the role of Kuwait in the Arab arena?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I say that nothing can disturb the clear atmo-
sphere between the two countries. There is mutual respect,
confidence, and brotherhoad as well. We have joint political,
economic, and military coordination. We not only exchange
amity and sentiments, but we strive to achieve material and
pasitive coordination for the sake of the two countries, particu-
larlysince they do not rely on one another. The oil rich countries
which are not densely populated do not rely on each other. They
have joint projects to assist in clearing the atmosphere. Nonethe-
less, Kuwait has a respectful role. I like Kuwaiti positions despite
the countries' location in a tense region. Actually Kuwait is
against hegemony and arrogance. Once I visited that wuntry. I
told them: I would like to congratulate you on your independent
decisionmaking and your stances..I had no other topic to discuss,
but I deliberately wanted to say that and add that we laud
Kuwait's stances and its independent decisionmaking.
AL-QABAS: Since our talk is about Kuwait's role and cooper-
ation with Libya, we would like to draw your attention to the
trend toward Arab blocs which has recently surfaced. The GCC,
the integration between Sudan and Egypt, and the great Arab
Maghreb project are examples. of such blocs. Do you view this
phenomenon as a step to achieve .the great national goal of
comprehensive Arab unity, or will these blocs lead, as others say,
to the fixing of regional blocs in the great Arab homeland?
Al-Qadhdhafi: To God, the ideal of course is to achieve com-
prehensiveArab unity without blocs and axes. What is happening
is totally different. Groupings are formed due to the deteriorating
situation and fear that the Arab nation will disappear and fall
apart. People have begun to accept these blocs as a fact and to
encourage them so as to salvage what has remained. This is better
than the disappearance and the destruction of the Arab nation.
I wish that these blocs would become countries. It is better to
have four great countries with conflicts than 20 backward coun-
tries. In this regard, I feel that there is a danger facing Arabism
and the Arab nation. There is a great danger dashing hopes to
achieve Arab unity. The current trend is for the state to rise above
the nation. For example, there are Libyan, Kuwaiti, Algerian,
and Syrian states. This trend distances us from Arabism, the
nation, and unity. It is very dangerous and is our downfall,
because midget states cannot exist in our time; they do not possess
the characteristics to exist in the future.
AL-QABAS: Supporting your argument, we regrettably
observe this dangerous trend to be everywhere, even in
broadcasting stations and. .songs. All these factors enhance
regional blocs. The trend to establish Arabism and unity, which
we encountered during the era of the late Jamal `Abd al-Nasir,
has disappeared. Even the educational curriculum is currently
devoted to deepening the idea of regional blocs among the new
generation.
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AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, the concept of the state replaces the con-
cept of the nation. It is a very dangerous trend. I cannot see that
even my country will be able to exist in this era, the era of the
giants, the great blocs, and the great potential to reach outer
space. No Arab country is able to build a satellite, rockets to
reach the moon, aircraft carriers, fighters, or submarines. We do
not have these capabilities.
The national income of Italy, for instance, exceeds the total
national income of all Arab countries. The Arabs believe that
they are rich countries. They believe that Libya or Kuwait are
among the rich countries. If all Arab wuntries were joined they
would form a country equal in size to Nigeria, for instance, or
Yugoslavia. In the future, every Arab country will, for instance,
be incapable of solving the education problem. The Arab coun-
tries will be incapable of absorbing the new generations. There
are actually Arab countries presently incapable of absorbing the
new children in schools because they do not have the resources
to do so. This implies that the Arabs will suffer anew from the
proliferation of illiteracy. This is a genuine danger. We have two
options - either we attain Arab unity by force before this nation
collapses, or the Arabs sit at a round table and draft the union
plan according to prevailing conditions.
I opted for proceeding with the peaceful solution of the unionist
pan-Arab trend and presented a unionist draft plan, which was
conveyed to all the Arab countries. I set forth that a union could
be established among the currently existing regimes. It is the
nature of the plan to preserve the existence of every regime in
order to prompt the Arabs to accept the union plan. According
to the plan, all the Arab leaders would become members of a
presidential council. The chairmanship of the council would be
rotated among the leaders. Thus there would be an opportunity
for every Arab leader to be president of all the Arabs during a
rotational period. In addition, a union ministerial council would
be formed. Chairmanship would be rotated among Arab prime
ministers. In other words, all Arab prime ministers would have
the opportunity to be the prime minister of all the Arabs, and so
forth. This is the last opportunity to establish Arab unity, or the
flood will come!
The Arab countries are currently midget countries. They have
only this opportunity to attain Arab unity. Many are opposed to
unity because they wish to defend their positions. The plan
preserves their positions and, moreover, paves the way for
expanded authority of them positions and make those stances
more comprehensive. This is the political aspect of the plan. As
for the content, the union includes a number of economic and
financial plans. It includes the formation of an Arab body for
seed and food. The duties of this body would be to ensure Arab
self-sufficiency in those areas. Another body for gas would be
established to provide a network linking all Arab countries.
Similarly, a body for water would be established to link all the
Arab rivers. The project of the great Arab river, in which Saudi
Arabia and Kuwait did not take part, would be implemented. The
rivers, such as the Nile, the Tigris, and the Euphrates, would be
linked through a unionist effort to convert the Arab Sahara into
vast green areas.
?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, in the field of scientific research a body
for scientific research would then gather all the efforts of the
scientists in the Arab world. Success in the technical field cannot
be attainind under the situation that currently exists in the Arab
world. For example, not a single Arab country is capable of
achievements in the fields of nuclear energy or lasers, or in
manufacturing airplanes. Even the European countries, though
each is equal to all the Arab countries, cannot manufacture
airplanes on their own. France, Britain, and Italy combine efforts
to manufacture a single plane. They succeed in manufacturing
civilian or war aircraft only through the joint efforts of huge and
advanced countries. We, in the Arab world, have no future. That
is why I proposed the union plan which includes economic and
political frameworks. If the Arab leaders do not accept this plan,
there will be revenge. Violence will certainly ensue.
AL-QABAS: Did you receive replies from the Arab leaders on
the plan?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We received some replies. The foremost was
from [UAE President] Shaykh Zayid and one from Kuwait.
There were other replies. No one said no, but all said that the
Arabs have, to convene and peruse the plan.
AL-QABAS: You said a while ago that if the plan is rejected,
revenge will begin. We do not understand what this means.
AI-Qadhdhafi: This means that the Arab citizen himself will
carry out revenge, because if Arab rulers do not accept this peace
proposal to bring them together to forge this union willingly, they
will destroy our future. I am sure that the Arab citizen will take
revenge against his rulers. I will then be the first to encourage
revenge and to incite disorder in the Arab world. I will be the
first to encourage disrespect for lands, borders, thrones, and all
artificial considerations.
AL-QABAS: Do you really sce that in the current Arab sit-
uation the ordinary Arab citizen can defy the authorities?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Revenge will begin and I will be the first to
encourage rebellion, revolution, and disorder, after which the
Arab nation will be saved. The Arab nation has to endure
surgery, which will involve much blood, sweat, and victims, until
the nation is united. We will be forced to undertake adventure to
save the Arab nation, because when one has a dying relative in
need of a serious operation to save his life, one makes him undergo
this operation at all costs. Is that not true?
AL-QABAS: But we are now facing a different situation in the
Arab world. During the past years, an Islamic trend has emerged
as a rival to Arabism. Perhaps the Iraq-Iran war underlines the
conflict between those seeking to unite the Arab nation and those
defending it, This contradiction continues with the continued
Gulf war.
AI-Qadhdhafi: No, the situation is not like that. Neither this
side is fighting for Islamic unity nor that side is defending the
Arabs' gate.
AL-QABAS: Some raise these slogans. An example is the
widespread Islamic current in the region.
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V. 25 Sep 85
Al-Qadhdhafi: Religion has nothing to do with politics; religion
consists of morals, education, and ideals which man should
uphold. The basis of any religion, not only Islam, is morals and
education for the Muslim and non-Muslim believer. This is not
a political issue. When we construct a hotel, no Islamic rule is
needed to construct it. When we intend to construct a new road,
there is no disagreement on how to construct it, a road is a road.
An airport is an airport; there is no Islamic and non-Islamic
airport.
Likewise, there is nothing called Islamic rule; rule is to steer
economic, social, and political matters. Man should dispose of
these things himself whether he has faith or not. Involving
religion in such matters is quackery and a maneuver to gain in
the name of religion. At some point, the Muslim Brotherhood
achieved rule in Sudan. They did nothing except chop off people's
hands and legs. After that, they themselves were cut to pieces.
AL-QABAS: Brother leader, in Kuwait and the Gulf, the peo-
plelook to the position of the Jamahiriyah toward the war raging
between Iran and Iraq with extreme attention. Frankly speaking,
your position toward this dispute is not very clear to the average
person, particularly as one of the sides to the war is a fraternal
Arab country which is supposed to receive aid from all the
brothers. On what do you base your position toward the war
raging between the two Muslim countries?
AI-Qadhdhafi: First of all, the shah ruled Iran earlier. He was
extremely antagonistic to the Arab world. He was a racist. He
loathed pan-Arab feelings. He occupied the islands of Tunb the
greater and Tunb the lesser in addition to Abu Musa Island. He
had ambitions in Shatt al-`Arab. He was an agent of the United
States. He supplied the Israeli entity with oil. He also cooperated
with Israel and South Africa. His country was a U.S. base. He
was, moreover, extremely arrogant in dealing with the Arab
nation.
We were the first people to call for fighting Iran, for using force
and Arab armies to liberate the islands by force and to fight the
shah. At that moment, Saddam came and signed the 1975
agreement in Algiers. He shook hands with the shah and relin-
quished Shatt al-`Arab. We were the side that rejected the
agreement and the treaty. We also rejected relinquishing Shatt
al-'Arab and the Arab islands and the truce with the shah. We
demanded launching war against him. We noticed that he later
visited Syria, Algeria, and Egypt. He even visited most of the
Arab countries and convinced them of his position on the truce
with the shah. We were the only side to call for a revolution
against the shah. The Arabs used to say that this was an
unheeded call and that it was illogical for Iran to rise against him
because he was an ally of the United States and could not be
deposed. We told them this was not true. Over the radio stations
we actually began to call for a revolution directed toward Iran
from Libya. Hashemi-Rafsanjani, Khamene`i, and Montazeri
told me that they used to listen to these speeches when they were
in prison and that these stations provided them with power. The
Pakistani prime minister visited the shah and asked him about
the situation. The shah told him: Ask your friend AI-Qadhdhafi.
In other words we were the side to cause him trouble. Whenever
explosions took place or whenever there was a development,
KEYHAN and other papers reported that Al-Qahdhafi or Libya
Q 4 NORTH AFRICA
were behind it. The free people of Iran responded and launched
the revolution. The shah collapsed and the revolution stood up
against the United States and against Israel. The revolution
allied itself with the Palestinian people and with the Arab nation
against the racism of South Africa. Then, are we going to oppose
the revolution? This is an immoral position. How can we oppose
a revolution we called for and instigated? This can never be. This
is an immoral position.
It is regrettable that Iran is engaged in a war with an Arab
country. This situation is very critical for us since we cannot fight
the revolution. But this revolution is clashing with an Arab
country. This position is certainly very critical to us. Our position
was very beneficial for Iran from the political aspect, as we did
not make this war seem anArab-Persian war. Had this war taken
place during the shah's days it would. certainly be an Arab-
Persian war. We called for this war then. Now, this war is not
between the Arab and the Persians. It is a war between the
revolutionaries and the nonrevolutionaries.
AL-QABAS: Actually the facts contradict this. At the begin-
ning you said that Iraq surrendered Shat al-`Arab according to
an agreement with the shah signed in 1975. However, as we
know, Iraq did not surrender Shatt al-`Arab, but was in a weak
position at that time. Had it not reached that agreement, Iraq
could have lost a great deal. It happened that an agreement was
reached on Shatt al-`Arab. When the war broke out, and the
Iraqis reached the Iranian territories and later retreated, they
asked that the war be stopped. They still ask this. Iran always
refuses. This is on one hand. On the other, I cannot abandon my
Arab nationality. I do not view that the brothers in Iran present
this issue from an Arab point of view. In the end Iran is a Persian
country. Iraq is an Arab country, its people are an Arab people.
In addition to that, all the GCC states are affected by maritime
piracy, attacks against oil tankers and commercial liners, and the
sectarian conflicts that might emerge in the course of this war.
Iraq is looking forward to peace. At least the friendly countries
should try to convince Iran to stop the war. Moreover, Iran has
not expressed good intentions by calling the Gulf by its correct
name - it still calls it the Persian Gulf. It also has not expressed
good will by giving back the Arab islands occupied during the
shah's regime. As an Arab leader calling for Arabism and Arab
unity, you know that this war is a war between an Arab country
and a Persian country. I see that we express the same views as
laymen, and not the views of our governments or those of Iraq.
Do you know that all the peoples of the Gulf support Iraq?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The understanding of the layman is different
from the actual fact. The Arab world's current stand is a sen-
timental one. The real stand is adopted by those well aware of
the facts. This war is not between the Arabs and the Persians, it
is between the U.S. bloc and an anti-U.S. bloc. We cannot fight
on the side of King Husayn and Husni Mubarak, although both
of them fight on the side of Saddam. What sort of war can Husni
Mubarak wage? It is a U.S. war.
AL-QABAS: But Jordan and Egypt support Iraq as part of
their pan-Arab duty and as an answer to the call for Arabism.
AI-Qadhdhafi: No, it is not for Arabism. If this is correct, then
Mubarak must close down the embassy of the Israeli enemy in
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the defeated city [Cairo]. Why does pan-Arab sentiment emerge
only when fighting against the Iranian revolution? Pan-Arabism
begins in Sinai and never in Cairo. This is a U.S. war. I will not
fight on the side of Husni Mubarak and King Husayn whatever
the circumstances might be, even if Iran occupied half of the
Arab homeland. As long as the Iranians fight against the United
States, I will support them. That means Iran is right. The other
side is the U.S. side. I will never be on the same side as the United
States. How can that be?
AL-QABAS: But Iran is pushing Iraq in this direction because
it refuses to end the war. Iraq was the first country to sever
diplomatic relations with the United States in 1967. The Arab
summit, which decided to sever Arab relations with Egypt during
the A(-Sadat era, was convened in Iraq. Iraq demanded that
AI-Sadat be brought to an Arab trial.
AI-Qadhdhafi: In my view this is pure quackery. How can
Egypt change its stances and policies and still adhere to the Camp
David accords? Iraq was the first country to recognize and to
restore its relations with Egypt.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Iraq would have respected the Arabs more if it
had restored relations with Egypt. It restored everything else
without restoring relations. It underrates the Arabs as if they are
children. Saddam Husayn goes to Mubarak and they embrace
each other. Everything is all right. We are not children that can
be fooled by this talk. It is better that these relations are restored
than to continue with what is happening now.
AL-QABAS: All right, in your view, how can this devastating
war be halted?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The true fact is that we are in an embarrassing
position. This stand is a U.S. and reactionary one and not a
pan-Arab one [sentence as published]. When the shah was ruling
Iran, Arabs did not consider Iran Persian, particularly the Gulf
Arabs. It was a Muslim country and a neighboring ally because
the United States was the common demoninator at that time.
After Iran became revolutionary, the Arabs began calling it
Persian. Iran is not Persian, never; this is a U.S. war between
revolutionaries and nonrevolutionaries. For me, I cannot but side
with the revolutionary camp; it does not honor me to fight
with...even if Iran, and not the United States takes the entire
Arab land.
AL-QABAS: If Iran is not Persian, why does it call .the Gulf
the Persian Gulf?
AI-Qadhdhafi: First, when Iranian President `Ali Khamene`i
visitied Libya, I told him: The Arab islands were occupied by
the shah. Why do you keep the islands and call the Gulf the
Persian Gulf? When Khamene`i talked to me, he used the term
Persian Gulf. I asked him: Excuse me, you say the Persian Gulf
and we say the that this Gulf is Arab, we should settle this point.
He told me: Make other Arabs revolutionaries like you, and
then call it the Persian Gulf, the Kuwaiti Gulf, or the Qurayshi
[reference to the prophet's tribe]. I said the same about the
islands. Khamene`i said: If the Arabs on the other coast are
revolutionaries and are against the United States, I will hand the
islands over to them tomorrow. But if I give them the islands
today, these islands will become U.S. bases against Iran. If the
islands are given back to the Arabs, they will be given to the U.S.
7th Fleet.
AL-QABAS: But the settlement Iran is talking about refers to
the establishment of the so-called Islamic revolution in Iraq. Do
you agree with the principle of exporting the revolution from one
country to another through war? Is this not a blatant intervention
in countries' internal affairs and in the will of their people?
Al-Qadhdhafi: My stand is clear on this issue. I conveyed it to
the Iranians. If Iran intends to change the situation in Iraq into
the so-called imam's rule [wilayat al-fagih] or into a Shiite state
or a state tied to the Supreme Council in Iran, I believe Iran in
that case will be an imperialist; this will be Persian colonialism.
In this case, we will fight Iran and will be the first to go to Iraq
to fight. However, we have an opportunity to wait and see if Iran
means what it says and whether it tries to annex Iraq, colonize
it, and turn it into a Shiite state or over to the imam's rule. If
this happens, we will fight it. This is very clear.
AL-QABAS: If you are against sectarianism in revolutions and
say that revolution is one thing and attempting to impose the
hegemony of a religion on another is somthing else, then this
brings us automatically to what is currently taking place in
Lebanon. During the past 10 years, the war in Lebanon has
developed from a patriotic war against injustice and then against
Israeli occupation -where it succeeded in expelling the Israeli
invasion army -into sectarian fighting among the Sunnis,
Shiites, Druze, and others. The internecine fighting broke. out
within the ranks of the Muslims themselves. This very thing may
take place on the eastern front between Iran and Iraq. In other
words, the matter may end up in a sectarian war between the
Sunnis and the Shiites. This is a grave matter that threatens the
whole Gulf 'region.
AI-Qadhdhafi: I am against Sunnism, Shi`ism, and sectarian-
ism. These are political parties fighting among themselves for
power. They came into being after the revelation of the Koran.
They have nothing to do with religion. If Sunnism is the prophet's
tradition, then everyone should be Sunni. I do not believe that
there is a Muslim who says he does not follow the prophet's
tradition. Even the Iranians follow this tradition. This Shiite
issue is legendary. It ended with Imam `Ali ibn Abu Talib.
Whatever came after him has no value. I believe that contempo-
rary Arabs sympathize with `Ali or at least support him but their
swords are sided with the United States!
AL-QABAS: During your meetings, did the Iranian leaders
inform you that they oppose sectarianism?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Of course they are against it. They do not say
that they are Shiites, Ja`farites, Persians, or Arabs. They say
they are Muslims. This is their view and you should publish this
in order to reveal the truth. This is their view. They say that they
are fighting an Islamic revolution against the United States,
Zionism, and racism. If they say that theirs is a Shiite revolution,
then this means that it is sectarian by nature and is not fit to be
a revolution:
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AL-QABAS: This is what they say. But facts reveal completely
different things. This is clear at least to us in the Persian Gulf.
Al-Qadhdhafi: Let us then leave things until they become
clear. If they are sectarians, our stand is clear on sectarianism.
For me, sectarianism, reactionism, facism, and Zionism are in
the same basket; there is no difference between them.
:4L-QABAS: Well, how do you envision an end to the Iraq-Iran
war?
AL-QABAS: Does that not constitute interference in Iraq's
internal affairs?
AL-QABAS: But this, of course, is unacceptable. Do you
accept what Egypt says, for example, that the condition for
establishing relations with Libya is Al-Qadhdhafi's downfall?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The fact is that this is a kind of protest against
regimes. We call for toppling them by all means, including a cold
war. But Iran reached the point of a hot war. If this is interference
in internal affairs, this rule should govern us all.
AL-QABAS: This regards the political aspect of the conflict.
Regarding the military aspect, it could lead to land occupation
and to attempts to topple the regime.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Why not? If one side can protest against the
regime of the other side and can topple this regime, why should
he not do so? Iraqis and Iranians are able to wage a war but others
are not able to.
AL-QABAS: Amid political and military conflicts among
countries and regimes, however, we forget the role of the people.
These people are in most cases powerless.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Let them remain so until they become pow-
erful.
AL-QABAS: Do you not think that the indefinite continuation
of the Iraq-Iran war will provide an opportunity for the great
powers to intervene in the Gulf, at least under the pretext of
protecting their interests?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes. This requires unity among the Gulf coun-
tries to fill the void.
AL-QABAS: Do you believe that the establishment of the GCC
fulfills this requirement?
AI-Qadhdhafi: No. They are two different things. I have pro-
posed to them that they transform the GCC into a federal state
so that it can fill the void.
that transforming the GCC into a federal state would fill the void
concerning any possible developments in the Gulf war and con-
cerning possible U.S. intervention or intervention in the region
by other great powers. A federal state can fill.the void concerning
any developments in the Gulf war.
AL-QABAS: Do you believe that the Gulf states' situation and
the differences in their political systems will help to establish the
federal state of which you speak?
Al-Qadhdhafi: This state could be governed by following the
same theory I spoke of concerning the Arab union plan.
AL-QABAS: Brother leader, let us move to another issue- the
Palestinian question. It is clear that you have strong reservations
about a peaceful settlement plan through the Amman accord
between King Husayn and Yasir `Arafat. What is the possible
Arab alternative to achieve a just solution to the tragedy of the
Palestinian people?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Fighting from the river to the sea [not further
specified]. There is no other solution.
AL-QABAS: How can there be fighting while Arab borders are
closed to the Palestinian resistance?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The war can begin against the Arab borders
and they can be opened by force.
AL-QABAS: You presently have good relations with the broth-
ers inSyria. Why do you not persuade them to open their borders
first to the Palestinian resistance?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The problem is between Palestine and Syria.
There are occupied Syrian territories, and the Palestinians say
that they do not want to fight to liberate the Golan Heights. In
the same way there are justifications to be found by those who
are unwilling to fight for liberation. [laughs]
AL-QABAS: Actually, brother leader, the PLO has a strong
argument which states that the Syrian blow upon it is designed
to achieve hegemony over independent Palestinian decision-
making. In your view, is this true?
Al-Qadhdhafi: I beg your pardon. To make Palestinian deci-
sionmaking what?
AL-QABAS: We mean hegemony over Palestinian
decisionmaking. Let's say hegemony by Syria for instance.
Al-Qadhdhafi: No. Palestinian decisionmaking suffers from an
intrinsic impotence. It is not Syria's fault. Right now the fault
lies with the Palestinians themselves -from Yasir `Arafat to
any other. None of them are up to the standard of the cause; their
makeup, the fronts, the leaders, and the organization suffer
defects in content and form. I am waiting for the unknown to
emerge to save the Palestinians. Neither the uprising nor any-
thing else will save them.
AL-QABAS: But differences exist in the Palestinian resistance
between Yasir `Arafat's wing and the wing supported by Syria.
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~ i
As an Arab leader, should you not play a role in this issue?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yasir `Arafat has been a victim of a coup. How
is it possible to reconcile with someone who has been the victim
of a coup? This means that we should reconcile between the
victim of a coup and those who carried it out (laughing). It means
that we should reconcile between `Abd al-Rahman `Arif and the
Bath Party, and reconcile between the Bath Party of Syria and
Iraq, and between King Faruq and the Egyptian Government,
and between Numayri and the 6 April Revolution in Sudan. Is
it possible to reconcile the coup sides? `Arafat was the victim of
a coup and that is it!
AL-QABAS: Do you think that Yasir `Arafat is finished?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I cannot say if he is finished in the field of
struggle, but he is overseas and is making efforts. He has become
semi-exiled, a person similar to Osman Sabbe of Eritrea.
AL-QABAS: During the Beirut siege, your stance was against
the departure of the resistance from Beirut. Do you still believe
that this stance was right? If the resistance had stayed in Beirut,
would the situation be different?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Certainly, if the resistance had stayed in Beirut,
Abu `Ammar [Yasir `Arafat] would be a "hero" and the Israelis
would be defeated. However, Abu `Ammar's departure led him
to this fate. When I cabled him and advised him not to go, he
refused. We have seen steadfastness in southern Lebanon and
how it led to the evacuation of the Israelis and before them the
Americans, the French, and the Italians.
A/-QABAS: Brother leader, the committee for clearing the
Arab atmosphere will visit Libya within the framework of its
mission. What is your stance on the committee and the res-
olutions of the recent Casablanca summit?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We have a national problem, not a problem over
borders. The Arabs should unite and liberate Palestine and work
against the United States. Then there would be no problems. If
we reconcile with them, no more hope will exist. We do not force
anyone, but we have a national problem.
AL-QABAS: But the Arab leaders say that it is a duty to attend
the meetings of the Arab summit in order to reach a minimum
level of joint stances.
Al-Qadhdhafi: Fine, there is the ordinary summit conference
before them - an ordinary summit, not an extraordinary sum-
mit. We will leave them to try all the things they say.
AL-QABAS: Are you optimistic about the upcoming ordinary
summit conference?
AI-Qadhdhafi: No, I am not optimistic.
AL-QABAS: On what basis do you say that you are not opti-
mistic?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The present Arab developments are bad.
AL-QABAS: Don't you think that these bad developments
should be one of the motives to hold the Arab summit and ease
this crisis?
Al-Qadhdhafi: The summit is not governed by current devel-
opments, but by other factors.
AL-QABAS: Brother leader, this has been a long working day
for you and we have two questions left. I will go back to the issue
of Iran, while brother `Abd al-Karim has a question about
Libyan-Tunisian relations and the situation inside Libya. The
truth is, Iran is trying to involve Kuwait as a side in the dispute.
This became obvious when Iran began seizing Kuwaiti ships and
accusing Kuwait of opening its airspace to Iraq, of financing Iraq,
and of other actions. Don't you think that this policy is serious
and contributes to the expansion of war in the region?
Al-Qadhdhafi: In Iran, they talk about the expansion of the
war, but they say they do not want to expand it, that the Arab
countries entered the war against the Iranians. This is the logic
of the Iranians who have made 'statements against Kuwait and
Saudi Arabia.
AL-QABAS: The Iranian information media is launching a
media campaign against Kuwait saying that Iraqi planes cross
Kuwaiti airspace. How can the Iraqi planes reach Khark Island
and hit it, while Iranian artillery cannot stop them?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I do not know. They are saying that the Iraqi
planes take off from Kuwait.
AL-QABAS: This is not true. They, cannot take off from
Kuwait. Kuwait has denied this more than once.
AI-Qadhdhafi: The Iranians saythat there is an Iraqi air base
near Kuwaiti borders.
AL-QABAS: The south of Iraq is the north of Kuwait?
Al-Qadhdhafi: I do not know where the borders are. It means
that this is Kuwait and this is Iraq and that there is an Iraqi base
near the border being used by the Iraqi planes to raid Iran.
AL-QABAS: Let us talk about the recent crisis between Libya
and Tunisia. It was noticed that the Tunisian voice was louder
than the Libyan voice in this case. W hat exactly is the truth about
the deportation of Tunisian laborers from Libya? Why did you
decide to deport the Tunisian and Egyptian workers from Libya?
AI-Qadhdhafi: They are laborers who came from Arab and
non-Arab countries to implement the 5-year plan which began in
1981 and concluded in 1985. All those countries knew that their
laborers would return home this year. The truth is that the
Tunisian Government knew this. It also knew that those laborers
would be dispensed with. It was the Tunisians who asked for a
few month's extention of the laborers' stay.
Al-Qadhdhafi: The Tunisian regime is unable to solve its citi-
zen'sproblems. Itlikes to send its citizens to France or Libya and
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?
AL-QABAS: Kuwait played a role in this crisis. Shaykh Sabah
al-Ahmad met with you before he left for Tunis. I believe Libya
agreed to receive the technical committee. What happened in this
regard?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The Tunisians refused. They could have come
to an understanding with us on good terms. We are not defending
Libya in this case. If Libya is the oppressor, then the issue cannot
be solved this way. It was the Tunisian media that almost led to
the use of force. What would you do when someone curses you
and tries to hit you? Wouldn't you hit him?
AL-QABAS: Does this mean that the military option was
expected at a certain time?
Al-Qadhdhafi: It was expected in the view of the Tunisian
media. Sir, we are unfair and we have undermined the workers'
rights. There are joint committees which are welcome to come
and solve the problems with us. We are not defending the
Libyans, because they might have been unfair with _ the
Tunisians. This may happen, but I am sure that it happens very
rarely. However, the media should not respond to the matter in
this way. I will tell you one thing that you can publish. Wasila
Bourguiba [Habib Bourguiba's wife] and some Tunisian min-
isters contacted us and asked us to escalate the media campaign.
They asked us not to ease the media campaign.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, together with some ministers. They said:
Please do not stop the campaign and do not stop dismissing the
workers.,
AL-QABAS: What was your answer to that?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We didn't care about the issue. We have noth-
ing to do with the local struggles there. However, they insisted
that we escalate the campaign.
AI-Qadhdhafi: They say that this is a chance. They asked for
a radio station to be used by the Tunisians to transmit to Tunisia.
Thus, they asked for a radio broadcasting station that operates
in the name of the voice of free Tunisia.
AL-QABAS: Strange.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, this is Bourguiba's method.
AL-QABAS: How do you evaluate the visit paid by Algerian
President Chadli Bendjedid to Tunisia following this problem?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We have done nothing to prompt them to unite
against us. Let them unite and come to occupy our country. We
are ready to withdraw our Army without defeat. We will with-
draw our Army and say that they have defeated us.
Q 8 NORTH AFRICA
confrontation between you and Egypt occurs, Egypt will not be
able to stand up to Libya. Is this true?
Al-Qadhdhafi: If Egypt can stand up to the Israelis, it will
stand up to Libya.
AL-QABAS: But, late President al-Sadat announced at Alex-
andria University in 1977 that he gave Al-Qadhdhafi a lesson he
will never forget. ~ .
Al-Qadhdhafi: You know the Egyptians. Cleopatra, who was
defeated in a war, escaped to Egypt and said that she had crushed
the.enemy and achieved victory. The Egyptians held festivities
for her. This is an old story in Egypt. Ramses II obliterated all
victories belonging to Ramses I and attributed them to himself.
AL-QABAS: We thank you for this interview, which we hope
will not be our last with you. We still have many questions, but
you must have much work to do. However, we thank you for
giving me and my colleague `Abd al-Karim. the opportunity to
hold an open dialogue with you. We also thank you, for enabling
us to differ with you in our views and for allowing us to have this
quiet dialogue.
AI-Qadhdhafi: We welcome you in Libya. We are proud of the
media in the Gulf, because it represents a sign of civilization. I
think you have noticed that the Libyan media carries Gulf
achievements in detail. In the past the newspapers and magazines
carried only Egyptian works and there were only Egyptian plays
and videotapes. We are happy for this Gulf advance. I am glad
for the upturn taking place in the Gulf.
JANA Says Reports of Troop Movements Exaggerated
LD24/057 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 0800 GMT 24 Sep 85
[Text] New York, 24 Sep (JANA) -The American,paper THE
NEW YORK TIMES has given the lie to reports circulated by
the Tunisian information organs alleging that Libyan forces are
deployed along the artificial border zone between the Jama-
hiriyah and Tunisia. In an article the paper says that it has now
become a fact that reports published about movements by Libyan
forces on the Libyan-Tunisian border are exaggerated. The paper
cited Western diplomats denying such reports and saying that
the measures taken on Libyan territory are quite normal.
r
JANA on Succession Struggle Oger i3ourguiba;,,,
LD241611 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 1400 GMT 24 sep 85.
[Text] Kuwait, 24 Sep (JANA) - KUNA has attributed an
informed Tunisian source as having said that the Tunisian Army
today has been placed on extreme alert. This measure reflects the
intensification of the political struggle between the Tunisian
factions over the succession of President Habib Bourguiba, who
since yesterday has been in the throes of death after his health
deteriorated.
It is worth mentioning that the Tunisian National Defense.
Minister admitted the day before yesterday that there' are deep
disputes between the two organizations over Bourguiba's succes-
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