AL-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED ON MIDEAST, TERRORISM

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400420007-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 3
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 12, 2012
• Sequence Number: 7
• Publication Date: February 11, 1987
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/03/12: CIA-RDP05-01559R000400420007-2 /B040
AL-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED ON MIDEAST, TERRORISM
LD120159 London ITV Television Network in English 2030 GMT 11 Feb 87
(Report on interview with Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi by cor-
respondent Eamonn McCann on the "Diverse Reports" program,
presented by Editor Philip Clarke; interview conducted in Libya,
date not given - recorded; Al-Qadhdhafi speaks in Arabic with
English subtitles providing the translation, except where noted
that translation is provided by translator's voice]
[Text] (Clarke] Just under a year ago the Americans bombed
Libya: Some of their planes took off from Britain. The action
was widely condemned. But the raid did silence Colonel al-
Qadhdhafi for a while. But he's now keen to return to the world's
stage. Our reporter, Eamonn McCann, has just come back from
Libya, where he talked to Al-Qadhdhafi at some length in the
colonel's first major political interview for some time. Eamonn is
a committed socialist, and perhaps more sympathetic to Libya
than most Western journalists. Much of the discussion about
Libya tends to be in slogans and gives a picture of the country
that Libyans themselves hardly recognize. So Eamonn's report
is an attempt to see Libya and events in the Middle East from
their point of view.
(McCann] The sleeping capital erupted into a ground-to-air
battle, tracer fire arching skywards. [video shows tracer bullets
streaking into night sky, followed by scenes of destruction in
Tripoli]
(Tripoli resident ('Ali Bessiuni), identified by caption) It was
uncivilized act, in fact, and I feel it was a barbarian act against
the innocent people.
[McCann] More than 50 people were killed in Tripoli and Ban-
ghazi as American bombs blasted residential areas. Col al-
Qadhdhafi's home was among those hit; his family among the
victims of the raid.
(Al-Qadhdhafi) Thatcher is a murderer, malevolent to such an
extent that she allowed Britain to be used as a base by America,
the most powerful country In the world, knowing that those
planes were destined to destroy my house and kill my children.
Of course one feels very hurt, wounded, and frustrated, because
on one hand it's a flagrant injustice and on the other it's an
expression of Western hatred towards Libya. Not just because
it's Libya, but because their hatred extends to the whole Arab
and Islamic world.
[McCann) The intention was, apparently, to kill Al-Qadhdhafi,
or to create conditions in Libya in which he might be overthrown.
Al-Qadhdhafi survived: As an effort to destabilize Libya, the
attack failed. Support for Al-Qadhdhafi and his revolution seems
unshaken.
Libya is commonly regarded in the West as the terrorist state,
with its leader, Col al-Qadhdhafi, as a madman. But from the
point of view of the Libyan people, this is a grotesque distortion
of the truth. When you understand Libyan history, generations
of struggle against foreign domination, which ended less than 20
years ago, then perhaps you can begin to understand the way they
see themselves, and see the rest of the world. Libya was under
foreign occupation for centuries; it was a province of the Ottoman
Empire until 1911. Then the Italians came.
[Al-Qadhdhafi) We have suffered repeatedly at the hands of
Europe. In fact we were colonized by the Italians in 1911 before
the fascists and Mussolini took power. They colonized and
attacked us unexpectedly, killed our people, destroyed our nation
and set up places for people to be hanged. They abducted
thousands of men and women and took them to Italy. To this day
we have been asking the Italians to tell us what happened to those
thousands of Libyans - they were innocent people.
[McCann] Italian rule, during which at least 100,000 Libyans
were killed, ended with the victory of the 8th Army in the desert
campaign. Libya was devastated in the battles between the two
European armies.
(Al-Qadhdhafi) Who triggered the First World War and the
Second World War? Who spread war in Africa, Asia, and Latin
America? Was it the Africans who started two world wars? Were
they Asians? Or people from Latin America? No, it was them!
[McCann] The land was left littered with the debris of someone
else's war. In 1951, Libya became formally independent, after
the great powers failed to agree on [word indistinct]. Determined
to maintain some control, the British installed and then patron-
ized the corrupt King ldris.
Libya was among the poorest countries of the world. Average
income was $35 per year. Masses of people lived in rag tents in
the desert, or in slum shantytowns. But in fact beneath the desert
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there lay an ocean of oil, which Western companies were quick
to exploit. A rising generation resented foreign ownership of
Libya's new riches; and that feeling, expressed in an upsurge of
armed nationalism, carried a group of young army officers to
power in 1969. The takeover was bloodless: It was organized by
this man, Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi.
[(Bessiuni)] There was no Libya here before the revolution. There
were, of course - the Americans maintained the main base here
which they called Wheeler, and they used it against the Arab
population in most parts of the Arab world. And in Banghazi, of
course, it was a British garrison there, with British troops. And
in Sabha, in the north, it was the French there - it was occupied
by French. The imperialists, they use their puppets in this country
against their natives. But after the revolution everything was
changed.
[McCann] Every aspect of life in Libya today is touched both by
the legacy of colonial rule and by the revolutions's promise of a
new and more equal society, in which, for the first time. Libyans
could have power in Libya.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Generally speaking, the revolutionary plan is
proceeding successfully. But certainly we are still suffering from
what remains of the European domination of our people and their
attempts to make us lose our self-confidence. We have been used
to being ruled by invaders from Europe generation after genera-
tion. Our people had no experience of independence except under
the revolution.
[McCann] The most immediate effect of the revolution on the
lives of Libyans was a massive improvement in the standard of
living. Al-Qadhdhafi himself personally supervised the clearing
away of the slums. The country has undergone a massive
transformation. Under law, the state must now provide every
family with a home. The health and education systems are free
and available to all. More than half of Libya's 4 million people
are now at school, college, or university. Agricultural production
has increased, boosted by an officially sponsored back-to-the-
land movement, and by the biggest irrigation scheme ever under-
taken anywhere. This kind of prosperity is a new experience for
Libyans, as is the form of democracy introduced a decade ago.
Every person in Libya is a member of a Basic People's Congress.
This isn't democracy on the Western model, but its the first
experience of self-rule Libyans have known - and for them it
works. The thinking of Col al-Qadhdhafi is enormously influen-
tial, but some of Al-Qadhdhafi's proposals, to do with education
and women's rights, have been rejected. Despite this, Libyan
women feel that they have made significant advances.
[Unidentified female in Arabic, with translation provided via
captions] As Libyan women, we are in a much better position
than other Arab women, particularly when it comes to arguments
and debates, as it clearly shown by our role in people's congresses
where we take part and express our views freely.
[McCann) Many of these ideas are threatening to more conser-
vative Arab regimes, content to hold Al-Qadhdhafi at arms
length. But its his radical anticolonialism which has made him a
threatening figure to the West. The revolution of 1969 was
motivated not only by the Libyans' desire to assert sovereignty
at last over their own territory, but reflected, too, a belief that
the Arabs area single nation, divided and dominated for centur-
?
ies by colonial powers. Libyans see the existence of the State of
Israel, on what to them is Arab land, as a last intolerable example
of the colonial presence, and thus the struggle against Israel as
the key to ultimate Arab liberation. Under this context, they see
the United States as the agent of the State of Israel.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Unfortunately, a new crusader-like spirit has
emerged in the West which is anti-semitic, and of course we the
Arabs are semites. Witness the unlimited support given to Israel
in order to annihilate Arabs and destroy the Arab nation as a
whole, enabling them without any protest or reservation to build
nuclear bombs. Doesn't this show malice and bad intentions
against the Arab?
[Unidentified voice] This?means, then, there is spite against the
Arabs and that they should be destroyed.
[Al-Qadhdhafi) Isn't that the theme of Western policy?
[McCann] Al-Qadhdhafi hasn't always been so hostile to the
West. Although the regime's first target were the British and
American bases established during the Second World War, he
negotiated their peaceful removal. It was a popular move. Rela-
tions with the West remained reasonably friendly because Al-
Qadhdhafi's nationalism was also hostile to Soviet influence.
Al-Qadhdhafi sought unity with Egypt as a first step toward a
single Arab nation, which might have the strength to win back a
homeland for the Palestinians. Through the seventies, this spirit
of Arab self-assertion, which he epitomized, was to bring Libya
increasingly into conflict with the West. Libya was in the van-
guard of the OPEC move, which quadrupled oil prices in 1973
and jolted the economies of the West. Next, Al-Qadhdhafi
vigorously opposed the American-sponsored Camp David
agreement, which detached Egypt from the Arab consensus on
the question of Israel. The agreement was presented in the West
as a major step toward an honorable peace; in the Arab world it
was seen as nothing of the sort.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Politically there have been a number of setbacks
in the Arab world. One of them was the recognition by Egypt of
the occupation of Palestine, their recognition of international
Zionism, and their acceptance of the status quo. But I don't
believe Egypt did these things because she was convinced, but
rather because she was defeated in the 1973 war with Israel. [The
preceding sentence, audible in Arabic, differs from ITV's English
subtitle translation as follows:- But I believe Egypt did these
things because it was defeated in war, not because it was con-
vinced that Palestine should remain under Zionist occupation.]
[McCann) Politically, Al-Qadhdhafi had become a thorn in the
side of the West. The first moves toward sanctions against Libya
were made by the United States in 1979. Increasingly, Al-
Qadhdhafi saw America as an implacable enemy of Libyan and
Arab interests.
[AI-Qadhdhafi]The invaders have not allowed the Libyan people
to live in peace. We have not been left alone to build up our
country. Hence, we feel bitter.
[McCann] Do you believe that the United States has any legiti-
mate interests at all in this region?
[Al-Qadhdhafi, superimposed by voice of translator] None what-
soever.
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even at the expense of some other Western interests.
(Al-Qadhdhafi] Europe is known to be somewhat wise and
rational but America is known to be childish, crazy, and irratio-
nal. The mentality of the cowboy and the criminal dominates
U.S. policy.
(mct_ann) it was that view which, than anything else, has
made Al-Qadhdhafi a focus for we American hostility.
Elected in 1980, Ronald Reagan reflected an American desire to
reassert itself in the world. In Libyan eyes, American power was
being deployed to ensure the continuing humiliation of Arabs,
[McCann] In August 1981, U.S. fighters shot down Libyan
planes in a clash over the Gulf of Sidra. The pretext was that
America had a duty to assert the right of free passage for shipping
in the gulf. No effort had been made to establish this right in
international law. Libyans argued that the gulf was not a strate-
gic waterway, like Panama or Suez - that it leads to nowhere
but Libya. What's more, the American position appeared both
arrogant and hypocritical.
[AI-Qadhdhafi] It's a matter of sovercigty; it's not a question of
whether it's useful or not. But the Gulf of Sidra is of great
significance to Libya. It's a" integral part of our territorial waters
and historically Libya alwuys exercised authority over it. Even
those who colonized Libya, including the Americans, extended
their domination over the Gulf of Sidra as part of their dom-
ination over Libya as a whole. The same with Britain after the
Second World War. The Gulf of Sidra is vital for Libya. It
separates the two halves of the country. We cannot allow military
maneuvers. If you're talking about commercial vessels or tourism
- ships coming to Libyan ports - we welcome this.
(McCann] In March 1986, the Americans attacked again, sink-
ing Libyan patrol boats and bombing radar stations. At least 20
Libyans died. These attacks, as well as American support for the
Israeli assault on Lebanon, had an inevitable effect on Libya's
general orientation to world politics.
(AI-Qadhdhafi, superimposed by voice of translator] Because
America has a global strategy and we are the victim of this
strategy; they want to encircle and contain, in the end, the Soviet
Union, and this containment is taking place through us. That's
why we and the Soviet Union find outselves facing a common
enemy. An enemy is approaching the Soviet Union, but we find
ourselves that we are the victim number one, using us as a
springboard toward the Soviet Union, the ultimate end.
(McCann] It is American imperialism, then, which has compelled
Libya and the Soviet Union to come closer together?
(AI-Qadhdhafi, superimposed by voice of translator] They serve
the Russian-Libyan relations a great deal.
(McCann] To Libyans, all this looks very much like aggressive
determination to reassert military domination over the Arab
world, to turn the clock back. Meanwhile, we in the West have
been told a very different story: Almost every major terrorist
incident in Europe in the eighties has been attributed in much of
the Western media to the malign activity of Libya and Al-
Qadhdhafi.
What Libya has done is to support movements around the world
seen as struggling against the old colonial powers. They openly
proclaim their support for the Palestinians, as do most Arab
countries.
/9274
CSOt 5600/4606
[(BessiuniD You call tfthters, the Palestinian fighters, when
they are fighting fort freedom, you call them terrorists, but
we call them a fighter, to free their nation; you can see in Lebanon
how they feel; we feel very sorry about that, but all the West -
not only America, but all the West - they're always on one side,
on Israel's. They're always persuaded by Israel; and they always
support the Israeli's point of view.
[McCann] But when you look for specific examples of what the
Libyans are persistently charged with - the instigation of
international terrorism - they are hard to find. Amnesty Inter-
national estimates that there have been 19 victims of Libyan
terrorism, all but 4 Libyan dissidents. Libya sees Itself as being
at war with anti-Al-Qadhdhafi groups. Such groups have assas-
sinated a Libyan ambassador, and staged coup attempts. Libya
does pursue the dissidents abroad.
It was during the demonstration by the National Front for the
Savlation of Libya that woman police constable Yvonne Fletcher
was shot dead. Despite Libyan denials, all the evidence is that
the bullet which killed her came from Libyans inside at the
embassy. It seems equally certain that WPC Fletcher was not the
intended target.
[AI-Qadhdhafi] Though we are prepared to fight, it's not in our
nature to kill innocent people. That policewoman could never
have been a target for us. She was a security officer concerned
with order and security and she didn't deserve to be killed.
(McCann] Through 1985, pressure in the United States mounted
for action against Libya, as they were blamed for a series of
dramatic terrorist attacks. These included the hijacking of a
TWA airliner, and of the Achille Lauro; and the massacres at
Rome and Vienna airports. No evidence has ever been produced
linking Libya directly to these attacks. But it was another
incident in April, last year, which produced the most unequivocal
allegations against Libya. Far from proving Libyan guilt, the
evidence which has emerged points toward Syria. But Syria is
large and powerful. America used the Berlin bombing as a
pretext for the raid on Libya.
[video shows President Reagan giving nationwide address on the
bombing of Libya, saying that it was conducted in such a way as
to minimize casualties among the Libyan people]
That's not the way they see it. In the conflict between Libya and
the United States, the Libyans have been responsible for far
fewer deaths than America. In broader perspective, their
involvement in violent activity beyond their own borders is insig-
nificant when compared with America's. Given their history,
including their very recent history. Libyans have good reasons to
regard themselves as the victims, rather than the villains, of
international terrorism. Their perception of the West, and of
what the West has done to them, has inevitably produced a fervor
which could have very serious consequences.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] All these hostile acts against the Arab people are
charging us up like a bomb which will one day explode,
destroying British, American, and Zionist interests. We are now
targetted by the United States, the most powerful state in the
world. Yesterday it was America and Britain; today it is America
and France. It is an historic period for us - both heroic and
tragic. This will produce a generation that will retaliate. So, if a
retaliatory generation emerges from this land it will have been
created by them.
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