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May 22, 1964
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Approved For Relose 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R0N000140015-7 'CONGRESSIONAL RECORD --'SEMATE 11351 And he sees beyond the horizon. The land Sefiator from 6eorgia [Mr. TALMADGE] and water conservation fund bill, landmark for himself and other Senators, relating conservation legislation which must be en- to jury trials in criminal contempt cases. acted, will rationalize the hit-or-miss, stop- and-start progress in meeting the national demand for parks and recreation oppor- tunities. The Pacific Southwest water plan, too, rep- resents statesmanship of a most demanding order. I commend to you the field of conserva- tion, and the field of politics?separately and together. I love them both. 1904: Wee n-yaliying aril? e (Cate& Conserva- tionists; -Wat &pi-ally available to those who Would nie-eVerYpeatible device to defeat the reservatieri:nf 'any "further lands for park Any iminber of parallel situations may be cited to demons-trate the increasing conflict between 'a.;-rid" litifilit-interests within the coriSerVation'familY In ita- broad expanse. The Steain-bo480,rings- project, dear to the hearts ,of: the "realaniation branch of the family, foUnderecl Upen'the Unavoidable con- sequence Of flooding a part of Dinosaur Na- tional Moriunient. The Glen Canyon reser- ' vOir is already' beginning to fill, but the ' bitterness' over failure to protect Rainbow Bridge against 'Water intrusion is readily evi- dent in, our daily Mail. Issues such as these find their outlet in the exercise of highly developed techniques of political pressure. - The isates Upon Which the conservation coin/Min* finds itself divided will increase as 'demands for scarce land increase. The pofitical dimension of conservation has ex- panded in ever-widening circles as our soci- ety and our technology have become increas- ingly complex. The simple "for" or "against" issue of 'l200 now has overtones of the bu- reaucratic contest for policy supremacy. "Multiple use" becomes a slogan to block the preservation' of critically needed recreation values; freedom to locate mineral claims argues against inclusion of a public domain tract in either a forest or a park. Parks sup- porters are Poetised of "locking up" resources because they_ regard public Minting incom- patible with park objectives. The pluralism of modern life- niakes extremely complicated the simple faith Which motivated Thoreau, Muir, Powell, and the- other 'prophets of the good' life. Let us now look to the future prospects for conservation ,as a "political Issue. Will it drop out of the field becauSe other problems Of Modern, life demand all of our attention? I am 444:10.9011. that the e.0.0t -ol?Posite will be the ekes. 'Science and technology can .change and thilitigy and Stretch the limits of such resold,* OP feed and fiber and energy sbUrees. ',But eventually Wnget back to the elements of -land and Water. Living Space for twice oniinetent POPitiation will demonstrate the inelasticity of the land surface. _ Water prOblerna; both- qualitative and quantitative, must be attacked promptly and with every scrap of our imagination?for wars have been fought and civilizations have ? died for its lack We face a,Centitry of intense competition /or these elemental resources. Government must inevitably enter as the arbiter. _PonservatiOnisaiies kri47; therefore, become the dominant ones in public affairs, therefore, in politics, in Our own generation. The stewardship Of Stewart Udall as Sec- retary of the 'Interior has seen a truly re- markable elevation of the level of conserva- tion politics. ' ? ? First p,nci, feremost, be: has penetrated the American consciousness of the land andwa- ter, and 1,::).,as made conservation a felt philoso- phy, in and out of 66fernnient. President Kennedy's White House Conference on Con- servation in 1902: Was the 'Drat Since Teddy Roosevelt; and it caught' the iniblic's at-ten= tion and interest. jSo aid that Memorable conservation te--hr in the beautiful autumn of 1963._34.r.1-740,lyS book .-rhe: quiet Crisis" Is thoughtful and deep,-afid its infinence widens Month by Month. ' It, takes a great Secretary to be able to Manage bath the programs 'for 'Water deVel= opment and the programs for park and nat- ural valne protection, and the public does ? not eyen begin to understand how well he has,,,Magered3henridarifentalanf each, thus ?freeinghimself from the shackles of slogans rheDric? y sees the hiof con= ? 0.0italPn5C:rtr(lefSocial objectives arid other aoverpluen _programs, as witness the con- servatioiiist cast of the Job COrPs segment of President Johnson's Wr ron poverty. - 4 SALVATION ARMY WEEK Mr. KEATING. Madam President, 84 years have passed since Commissioner George Scott Railton and his seven "Hal- lelujah Lasses," as they were called, marched into New York and "opened fire" on America. Today the Salvation Army includes 5,000 officers in the United States, 1,300 evangelical centers, and more than 800 institutions and services. Its workers have become known for their selfless devotion, their endless patience, and their consistent optimism. The Salvation' Army, which first won fame in this country by providing the "doughboys" with doughnuts in World War I, and had a major hand in the USO clubs during World War II, does not limit Itself to work with the distressed. Army services range from missing persons bu- reaus and correctional services for pris- oners to marital counseling, from rooms for evicted slum dwellers and nurseries for children of working mothers to free soup kitchens and medical and dental care. The Salvation Army began as a unique adventure in evangelism. The founder of the Army, William Booth, believed in providing "soup and soap" before trying to convert the thousands of forgotten human beings?the alcoholics, the street- walkers, and the criminals?who were not wanted by organized religion of the time. This year, while we are ourselves try- ing to change the face of the "other America," it is particularly appropriate to salute the work of the Salvation Army. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there further morning business? If not, morning business is concluded. The Chair lays before the Senate the unfinished business. CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1963 The Senate resumed the consideration of the bill (H.R. 7152) to enforce the constitutional right to vote, to confer jurisdiction upon the district courts of the United States to provide injunctive relief against discrimination in public aCCortnnodations, to authorize the At- torney General to institute suits to pro- tect constitutional rights in public fa- cilities and public education, to extend the Commission on Civil Rights, to pre- vent discrimination in federally assisted programs, to establish a Commission on Equal Employment Opportunity, and for other purposes. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on agreeing to the amend- ments (No. 577) proposed by the Sena- ? tor from Louisiana [Mr. LONG] to the amendments (No. 513) proposed by the CALL OF THE ROLL Mr. CHURCH. Madam President, I suggest the absence of a quorum. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will call the roll. The legislative clerk called the roll, and the following Senators answered to their names: [No. 249 Leg. Aiken Douglas Allott ' Mlender Anderson Fong Bartlett Gruening Bayh Hickenlooper Beall Humphrey Bennett Inouye Bible Jackson Burdick Javits Carlson Jordan, Idaho Case Keating Church Long, Mo. Clark Mansfield Cotton McCarthy Curtis McGovern Dirksen McIntyre Dodd Metcalf 1 Miller monroney Morse Mundt Neuberger Pearson Pell Proxmire Ribicoff Saltonstall Simpson Smith Sparkman Stennis Talmadge Yarborough Young, N. Dak. The PRESIDING OFFICER. A quo- rum is present. The Chair recognizes the Senator from Georgia. Mr. TALMADGE. Madam President, I ask unanimous consent that I may - yield to the distinguished Senator from Alaska [Mr. GRUENING] with the under- standing that my doing so will not affect my right to the floor in any way whatso- ever or cause the resumption of my speech to be counted as a second speech. The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- out objection, it is so ordered. BRING WAR IN SOUTH'VIETNAM ALSO TO CONFERENCE TABLE Mr. GRUENING. Madam President, President Johnson and Ambassador Stevenson are to be highly, congratu- lated for taking a portion of the south- east Asian mess to the United Nations. That is precisely where it belongs. I have so urged ever since March 10, 1964, when I spoke in the Senate and stated that the United States should get out of South Vietnam and immediately pull our troops back from the fighting front. While the administration's action in the United Nations yesterday was an en- tering wedge, it has not gone far enough. However, it does mean that the admin- istration which inherited the Vietnam Mess from previous administrations has now realized that in southeast Asia we cannot and should not go it alone. It might have done this immediately on taking office, but it is riot easy over- night to shake off established?even if mistaken?policy, especially if the same policymaking personnel continues in office. The solution of the serious problems existing in southeast Asia lies in strict adherence to the Charter of the United _Nations calling for collective action by the signatories to the charter and not by individual action. t congratulate Presi- dent Johnson in having come at least this far. As James Reston write& in today's New York Times: Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 Approved - Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 11352 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 ? None of thia removes the need for defend- ing the principle of collective action, That need is just as great now as it was when the U.N. Charter was written, or when the fight- ing broke out in Korea or the Congo. The administration's actions in the United Nations yesterday was hailed to- day by Max Frankel in the New York Times in. these words: For the first time, also, the United States indicated that It was prepared at any time at least to debate the entire southeast Asia Bit'uation, including its own actions. in the world organization. So far so good. It is high time the United States stopped sabre rattling and restorted to peaceable measures. Why not this procedure for all southeast Asia? Why not stop the killing in South Vietnam now? The situation?as I have said repeated- ly?in South Vietnam is such that it is now threatening the peace of all south- east Asia. Ambassador Stevenson should have gone further. He should have offered solutions along the same lines to end the fighting in South Viet- nam where brother is fighting brother and father is fighting son. It is also a situation where American boys are dying in battle. It is also a situation that cries out for International solution for the problem which will not be resolved in battle but around a conference table. The United Nations offers such a conference table for us and before the situation deterio- rates further we should seize upon this Opportunity and lay the matter before the Security Council of the United Na- tions. If we are thwarted there we should go further and invoke the powers of the General Assembly. As we go it alone in South Vietnam the situation continues to deteriorate. The New York Times, in a leading edi- torial on Thursday, May 21, 1964, occu- pying more than half its editorial columns, analyzes the deteriorating sit- uation in Indochina and comes to the conclusion that: We must confront the Communists with options short of unacceptable defeat, op- tions to which they can turn, once some of their leaders begin to conclude that victory may be unattainable or too expensive. In brief, we must define our peace aims. Aceording to the New York Times edi- torial, "total victory is beyond our grasp." This conclusion is reaffirmed by the sombre statement contained in Joseph Alsop's column in the Washington Post and -Times Herald on May 20, 1963, to the effect that: Like a muffled thief in the night, pipping from shadow to deceptive shadow, a great national disaster is creeping up on the United States?and on this poor country [South Vietnam] too. In one night, almost before we know it. we may be overtaken by the disaster that Is creeping up on us. It is heartening to have the New York Times finally take a good hard look at the facts in southeast Asia. Such a re- appraisal of our tenuous position in South Vietnam by one of the Nation's leading newspapers is long overdue. I would hope that in the days ahead such reappraisals will take place in our news- papers from coast to coast. As I have been saying for months now on the floor of the Senate, the problem in South Vietnam is a political and not a military one. The United States can- not impose by military force alone a vic- tory upon South Vietnam. By the same token, the United States cannot achieve peace in Vietnam by interposing bodies of U.S. military men between the Viet- namese and the Vietcong. The lives of American soldiers cannot be used as a substitute for a will to win on the part of the Vietnamese. The time has long since come to ne- gotiate an honorable way out of our in- volvement in South Vietnam?in which we are alone involved and in which our so-called allies have given us at most only moral, if any, but no material as- sistance. The New York Times states in its edi- torial: But an increased military effort alone, without an offer to negotiate, would simply compound the errors of the past. With this statement. I am in hearty accord. But I would add to it. In the first place, I would add the sug- gestion that our military strength should henceforth be maintained only through the South Vietnamese fighting men and our military material. There is no earthly reason for the loss of a single additional American military man on the fighting front in South Vietnam. We have needlessly lost too many American military personnel in battle already. Our so-called advisers should be withdrawn at once from the fighting lines. In the second place, I would add that negotiations should be begun immedi- ately and that the United States should make it abundantly clear that it is not attempting to make South Vietnam a U.S. colony. I care not whether the im- mediate negotiations for a peaceful set- tlement in South Vietnam are begun in the United Nations which, because of Cambodia's complaint against the United States, is already seized with part of the problem in southeast Asia, or through SEATO, which was involved in the 1954 settlement. The medium of negotiations Is relatively unimportant. The impor- tant point is that we begin negotiations, In the third place, I would add that there is a definite need for an investi-; gation of why the people of the United States have not been given the facts and why it has been necessary, in the words of the New York Times, for the "harsh facts" of the war in South Viet- nam to be "brought to public notice through the enterprise *of American newspapermen on the spot." In recent years there has, in my opinion, not been a more flagrant violation of the Ameri- can people's right to know. The inves- tigation I am calling for should be two pronged. First, it should investigate to find out whether the true facts of the situation in South Vietnam over the years have been withheld from the American people not for security reasons but to cover up bu- reaucratic bungling. Second, and even more important?it should investigate to determine whether there has been a serious failure on the part of our intelligence apparatus to find out and evaluate accurately the true facts. In that connection, consider the on- again, off-again type of statements is- sued by Secretary McNamara after each of his trips to South Vietnam. On Secretary McNamara's first trip, Homer Bigart cabled to the New York Times on May 11, 1962, from Saigon as follows: After 48 hours in South Vietnam, Mr. Mc- Namara said he was "tremendously encour- aged" by developments. He said the Viet- namese people had more security. He was pleased by the quality of assistance given by the American military and civilian per- sonnel. His visit left Americans and South Vietna- mese with these impressions: First, the Kennedy administration still is rigidly following its "sink or swim with Diem line." Second, the administration regards Presi- dent Ngo Dinh Diem as a remarkable na- tional leader whose loss would be a great set- back to the anti-Communist cause in south- east Asia. Third, the administration believes the American correrpondents here are giving a distorted picture to Congress of American Involvement In the shooting war. That was after Secretary McNamara's first 'visit to South Vietnam. The official statement on October 3, 1963, from the White House after Sec- retary McNamara's return from his sec- ond visit stated in part: Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited num- ber of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,080 U.S. mpitary personnel assigned to South Vietnam can be withdrawn. The New York Times story by Tad Szulc at that time was headed "Vietnam Victory by the End of 1965 Envisaged by United States; Officials Say War May Be Won if Political Crisis Does Not Ham- string Effort." Within 3 months Secretary McNamara was back in Saigon, on his third visit, and this time the New York Times story by Hedrick Smith on December 21, 1963, 'was headed: "United States Drops Plans for 1965 Recall of Vietnam Force." In the story there appears this signifi- cant paragraph: Some diplomatic observers maintained that the goal, announced by the White House early In October, was never meant as an in- flexible commitment. They suggested that It was Intended primarily for domestic politi- cal purpose.. And now we come to Secretary Mc- Namara's latest excursion, his fourth, to South Vietnam earlier this month. This time the New York Times story by Jack Raymond on May 15, 1964, was headed: "McNamara Urges Further Aid for U.S. Aid for Vietnam War; Back From Saigon, He Gives President a Plan To Send More Money and Men." It is obvious from these accounts that the American people have been misled. Whether this was deliberate or whether those issuing the statements were not Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 1964 Approved For Ree 2005/02/10 : bIA-RDP661306403R013.100140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- StNAtt 11353 given accurate appraisals of the situation is a question the answer to which the American Public has a right to know. Following this latest visit to South Vietnam, and. Secretary 1VIcNarnara's rec- ommendations- , President Johnson last Monday sent to the Congress a special message reqUeSting an increase of $125 million in the amount to be authorized to be appropriated for economic and mili- tary assistance to South Vietnam for the 196$ fiscal year beginning July 1, 1964. Acith Secretary Rusk and Secretary Mc- Namara testifying before the House Conunittee on Foreign Affairs, urged the speedy approval Of this request. That 'committee approved the request last Wednesday. The President's message is even more puzzling when put in the context of re- ports recently emanating from Saigon. In a news story by the Associated Press from Saigon dated May 7, 1964, printed the next day in the New York Times, Premier_ Xhanh is reported as saying: But he (ith'anh) said American aid?which Involves 16,000 marl and money at the rate of $500 million a year?was adequate at this stage and he had no plans to ask Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara for more when he visits Saigon again next week. , trel'k fork Times, in a story from Washington by Jack Raymond dated May 14-10 days after Xhanh's state- ment?starts off as follows: Secretary 4of Defense Robert McNamara laid before President Johnson today a new plan for increased military and economic support for South Vietnam. Four ,days later the President 'sent to the Congress a message requesting the authorization of an additional $125 mil- lion in economic and military aid for South Vietnam. - Who wants this aid: Secretary Mc- Namara or premier 'Xhanh? I am still More puzzled by other impli- Cations of the -President's message It can have three posSible purposes. iAs the New York Times characterizes It, it could have as its purpose that of giving the morale of the South Viet- nallieSe a pOchOlogicalhoost. It could also have as its purpose the attempt to create the myth that the for- eign aid budget for fiscal year 1965 is , irreducible. If this is so, then it will not ? stand up to objective scrutiny. In the first place, the amount' request- - ed to be. authorized to be apPropriated? $3.4 billion?is larger bY $400 Million than the amount appropriated 'for the foreign aid program for the Current fis- cal year. Which new prograini included In the $400 'million increase?and in what cotintri,esare so very Important that _ they cannot be cut by the $70 million ad- ditional issisfande which the President says South Vietnam needs for its eco- ncliiie development? ? As anyone who has studied theforeign aid prograni knows?and as has been re- peatediy hronght:oue here On the floor pje.Aengi,e,?th_67,.tnfelgn aid budget $.0445?1Con ter_OsCaTyear-196$=as it has the past?is only an illustrative --budgeflancl nota firm budget as is sub- telitted: 'With remieet to domestic pro- . gthiis:" This means that the AID ad- ministrators are saying to the Congress, for example, that with the money given munist Vietcong fighters?a war in which them they will carry out projects A, B, all too many U.S. fighting men have been C, and D in countries W, X, Y, and Z. maimed or killed?a war which is not This statement, however, is preceded by worth the life of a single additional a big caveat. The AID administrators tell the Congress repeatedly, firmly, and unmistakably that they are not to be held to these illustrations. During the year we may find it more advantageous to do projects E, F, G, and H in an entirely different group of countries. This is known as the illustrative budget. It is not permitted for domestic pro- grams. The AID administrators have resisted for years all attempts to require them to submit firm budgets to which they would be held accountable. The reasons given by these administrators for resist- ing the submission of firm budgets to Congress is their claim that in an ever changing world it is impossible for them to tell the Congress with reliable cer- tainty in May for what purposes they will have to spend the appropriated foreign aid money in the following May or even November. So, on the one hand, the AID admin- istrators are saying to the Congress that they cannot submit firm budgets to the Congress because they need flexibility? maneuverability?and the ability to react instantly to events anywhere in the world. ? Meanwhile, on the other hand, the President is telling the Congress that every penny of the $3.4 billion requested of the Congress for the next fiscal year cannot be decreased a few million from One country's program and a few million from another country's program to ac- cumulate $125 million he says is vitally needed for South Vietnam. The AID administrators cannot have it both ways. And also the timetable is all wrong. 'Why the rush with this $125 million authorization') American soldier?a war which all im- partial students of the problem agree can only be settled at the conference table and not on the battlefield. I repeat, Madam President, the time has come to withdraw our fighting men from the frontlines in South Vietnam and to begin at once to settle the problem of South Vietnam and of southeast Asia at the conference table where we have a chance to achieve peace in that area of the world rather than to escalate our military efforts which can at best achieve only a military stalemate, but which will in any event cost us dearly in lives of our servicemen. Since making my first major speech in the Senate on the March 10, 1964, my mail has been heavy on the subject of Vietnam running about 100 to 1 in favor of my position. What are the American people saying about the 'U.S. position in Vietnam? This is in excerpt from a letter from a couple in Webster, N.Y.: We hope you will continue to use your in- fluence in changing the present southeast Asian policy away from support of this sense- less and brutal war. It is our hope that Gov- eminent leaders might at least consider ne- gotiation and possible neutralization of the area. We deplore the present sterile and un- realistic position. A professor at the University of Penn- sylvania writes: I deeply admire your stand on Vietnam, and believe it would be supported by most Americans if they truly understood the situ- ation there. Against tremendous numerical , and material odds, the guerrillas have been fighting, suffering, and dying in steadily in- creasing numbers. People do not behave in this way, year in and year out, simply at the behest of some outside master, whether Communist or otherwise. We can under- Stand what is happening in Vietnam today We are dealing with a foreign aid au- only if we recognize the basic fact that the thorization request for -fiscal year 1965 guerrillas are not opportunists, are not mer- With the parliamentary situation in the cenaries for an outside power, but are willing Senate being whatit is, there is no pos- to endure enormous sacrifice and suffering because they themselves believe firmly in :sibility of early action on the authoriza- the rightness of what they are doing. lion for some little time yet. And then there will have to come the appropria- tions. But meanwhile, there will prob- ably be a continuing authorization en- abling aid to go forward at not to exceed the rate for fiscal year 1964, $3 billion. What early advantage is to be gained by rushing the House Committee on Foreign Affairs to approve an authorization bill for $3.525 billion instead of $3.4 billion? One advantage would be to create the myth of the irreducible foreign aid budget. Another advantage is to get Congress to sign On the dotted line a blank check apprOval for an escalated war in South Vietrana. From the Secretary of a Farmers Union local in Minnesota comes the fol- lowing plea: For the last 2 years the Minneaota Farmers Union has in its bylaws that any issues en- dangering peace should immediately be brought before the United Nations. In the Interests of world peace, and with the rec- ognition of the right of all nations to develop their own resources and form of government, we urge that the United Nations be called on to supervise a cease fire so as to enable our forces to return home. Another professor at the University of Pennsylvania writes: I think it is one more dangerous myth i This disturbs me greatly. I object that we are in Vietnam to uphold a vital part of the "free world." The truth about strenuously if this message signals a de-Vietnam?about its origins, its political cision to escalate the intensity of Mc- somposition, and our own role?have too Naniara's war in South Vietnam 'War. long been buried.. which cannot be won by Military fight- ing in the steaming jungles- of -Senth From a noted anti-Communist South Vietnam or by burning alive With nailrlfm Vietnamese author, now living in Paris? bombs inhabitants of entire villages in Tran-Van-Tung?comes a thoughtful the hope that some of them may be Corn analSrais of the problems in part reading: Approved For Release 2005/02/10: CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP660403R000200140015-7 11354 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 For my part. I am convinced that if America is genuinely interested in helping Vietnam defend her freedom and independ- ence against the Communist menace, she must help us to install a representative civilian government with the participation of all the foremost Nationalist leaders in the very shortest time possible. With genuine representation embodied in government under the leaders who have earned real popu- lar support by their long and dedicated struggle against communism, dictatorship and feudalism, we can assure a renaissance of the national spirit. A Nationalist Govern- ment can create the atmosphere of purpose and dedication?so sorely lacking today? that can turn the tide e.gainet_the Commu- nist aggressors. I could go on at great length reading from the hundreds of letters I have re- ceived in the same vein from almost every State in the Union. In the interests of time these brief excerpts must sere,: as illustrative of the views of thinking Americans in various parts of the country who are genuinely concerned over our be- ng in South Vietnam at all and anxious that the war there not be escalated. In the various newspaper accounts, / find the repeated use of the word "fragile" as applied to the situation in southeast Asia. That is probably an ap- propriately descriptive adjective. It is "fragile" which means easy to break, or likely to break. Our policymakers should hasten to get the problems to the United Nations conference table lest what is fragile be irreparably shattered. Every day lost may well mean the loss of more American lives. Madam President, I ask unanimous consent to have the editorial published in the New York Times of Wednesday. May 20, 1964, as well as various articles, newspaper reports, and telegrams on the crisis in South Vietnam, and the letter from Tran-Van-Tung, printed in the RECORD. There being no objection, the material was ordered to be printed in the RECORD, as follows: (From the New York Times, May 21, 19641 New PHASE IN VIETNAM The crisis in Laos, Cambodia's arraign- ment of the United States in the Security Council and President Johnson's request for sharply increased aid to South Vietnam are all coincidental; but they are also interre- lated. In Laos, Washington has no alternative but to try to save what remains of the 1962 settlement. The trouble with that settle- ment has not been that it neutralized Laos, but that it failed to neutralize It completely. Laos has remained a source of East-West conflict because of its lengthy common bor- der with Vietnam and it. use by the Com- munists as a protected military highway for the Vietcong. It always has been clear that the 1962 cease-fire in Laos would remain fragile as long as the war in Vietnam con- tinued. The Cambodian problem also stems pri- marily from the Vietnamese war. The recent border incidents now under debate in the United Nations are only part of the problem. The real difficulty with Prince Sihanouk? who has canceled American aid and sought better relations with Peiping?is that he has become pessimistic about halting the Com- munist advance in neighboring South Viet- nam. The past year has thus seen a steady dete- rioration in all three of the non-Communist successor states which the 'United States. since the 1954 collapse of French hegemony in Indochina, has sought to preserve from Communist absorption. But the core of the problem Is Vietnam. And that problem now is entering a new phase. Only a year ago high American officials still regarded the military outlook in South Vietnam with optimism?or said they did. The war, we were told, was being "won." As late as October. It was officially predicted that the Vietcong could be largely "sup- pressed" by the end of 1965. And it WWI announced that all but a handful of Amer- ican troops would be home by then. We do not say that there was deliberate deception of the American people in these announcements; but it is clear that the harsh facts of the war in South Vietnam were only brought to public notice through the enterprise of American newspapermen on the spot. Within only the limits of military security, the American people are entitled to know frankly from their own Government what goes on in Vietnam. In any event, there has been quite a differ- ent tone in recent weeks. Secretary Mc- Namara now predicts "a long, hard, difficult war" and correctly points out that "there can be no such thing as a purely 'military' solution of the war in South Vietnam." The American objective now, as stated by the White House, is "to bring Communist ag- gression and terrorism under control." In these circumstances, it is of great im- portance that we frankly recognize limited, realistic objectives. Total victory is beyond our grasp; but it Is within our capability to deny victory to the Communists?and to increase their costs and difficulties. If we demonstrate that we will make whatever military and political effort that requires, the Communists sooner or later will also rec- ognize reality. President Johnson's plan for $125 million of additional American military and eco- nomic support for Saigon is as important for psychological as for military effect. We may have to do considerably more, as well as to keep open our option to punish North Vietnam directly if the war intensifies. But it would be a mistake to enlarge the war further without establishing a reasonable, limited objective for its settlement. From its beginning in 1961, the Program of American military intervention on the Asian mainland In Vietnam has been de- Maned to help the South Vietnamese fight their own war, rather than to light it for them. But American intervention was fol- lowed by an increased Communist effort. The result so far has been merely to enlarge the guerrilla war without changing the real balance of forces. Further increase in Amer- ican aid could simply mean another frustrat- big spin around this vicious circle?unless, at the very same time, we begin to open the way toward a peaceful settlement. We must confront the Communists with options short of unacceptable defeat, op- tions to which they can turn, once some of their leaders begin to conclude that victory may be unattainable or too expensive. In brief, we must define our peace aims. Secretary McNamara has already made it clear that the United States seeks neither to establish bases in South Vietnam nor to enroll Saigon in any Western alliance, Re has also said that "we have no objection in principle to neutrality in the sense of non- alinement." And Secretaries McNamara and Rusk both have indicated that the United States is prepared to abide by the Geneva accords of 1954, which neutralized all the Indochina states, Including Communist North Vietnam. As a result of these accords. French troops and 120,000 Communist guer- rillas were withdrawn from South Vietnam. While neutralization can hardly be said to have been a roaring success in Laos, the story might be different if neutralization could ultimately be applied to all of what was formerly Preach Indochina. It would be wise to hold forth, as well, the prospect of normal trade for North Vietnam both with South Vietnam and with the West. North Vietnam cannot feed itself. The war has been accompanied by critical food shortages, an economic crisis, and in- creasing dependence on the Chinese?whom all Vietnamese traditionally fear. The pos- sibility of a peace that would reverse this trend could well be a serious incentive to the Hanoi hierarchy. To suggest this does not mean that we can afford, in the meanwhile, to lessen our military effort in South Vietnam. Quite the contrary: we must make it clear to the world that we are willing and able to wage war as well as to negotiate for peace. Whether in waging war or negotiating peace, the United States would benefit from additional allied support in Vietnam; and attempts are being made to obtain it. But such attempts will not get very far if our allies suspect our purposes is to prolong or expand the war in search of an unat- tainable victory. We must make clear our willingness at the proper moment to seek a political settlement based, of course, on a non-Communist South Vietnam, inde- pendent, neutral?free of Communist guer- rillas as well as of foreign troops and bases? and guaranteed by the Great Powers. We must make it clear that we are fighting to get out of. not to stay in, South Vietnam. The aim should be a return to the Geneva settlement of 1954, an objective that might even be supported by the French. In a lit- tle-noticed statement a few weeks ago, Foreign Minister Couve de Murville indi- cated that this is really what President de Gaulle has in mind. American willingness to negotiate on this basis will not necessarily bring peace quick- ly, or even a negotiation. Military force is essential It the Communists are to be brought tl) the conference table and a reasonable set- tlement extracted. But an increased mili- tary effort alone, without an offer to nego- tiate, would simply compound the errors of the past. (From the New York Times, May 12, 1962] MCNAMARA TERMS SAIGON AID AMPLE: SATS IT IS AT PEAK AND WILL LEVEL OFT?DIEM'S FIGHT AGAINST Rees Heinen (By Homer Bigart) SAIGON, VIETNAM, May 11.?U.S. aid to South Vietnam has reached a peak and will start to level off, Robert S. McNamara, De- fense Secretary, disclosed today. Before departing for Washington, Mr. Mc- Namara said he doubted whether U.S. mil- itary personnel assigned to South Vietnam would be increased above the present levels of strength. There are more than 6,000 American serv- icemen advising, training and supporting South Vietnamese forces in the struggle against the Communist guerrillas. An addi- tional 1.000 or more American servicemen are believed to be either en route or destined for shipment. The flow of war materiel will not be in- creased, barring unexpected setbacks in the dontiestic struggle or overt aggression from the Communist bloc, Mr. McNamara indi- cated. After 48 hours in South Vietnam, Mr. McNamara said he was "tremendously en- couraged" by developments. He said the Viet- namese people had more security. He was pleased by the quality of assistance given by the American military and civilian per- sonnel. He had visited some strategic hamlets and training areas for the civil guard and self- defense corps and had found "nothing but progress and hope for the future." Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For RelAili 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R00640140015-7 /964 - CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE 11355 mg, vistp lot ,AxacricanA, and,South Viet- withdrawal of American forces, but in effect erals "explain in detail their program for ,IlatrieSe, W?Ith these impressions: it eliminated the previously announced goal 1964." First, the kennedy administration still is of withdrawing most of them by the end of Although Mr. McNamara said he was "op- rigidly following- its "sink or swim with 1965. timistic as to the progress that can be made Diem line:" . Secretary McNamara also sought to allay during the coming year," he carefully quail- Second, the administration yegards Presi- Vietnamese fears that the United States fled his optimism and avoided expressing M dent Ngo Dinh Ie' as ,a' remarkable na- might permit proposals for neutralizing Viet- confidence that the war situation would tional leader 740444 WOQ,be a great set- nam to become the subject of a possible in- improve. ? , , . bacA to,thc sunti,7,Qpirinallu4at cause in south- ternational conference on Cambodian neu- east Asia, - trAlltY? STUDENTS JEER FRANCE The issue of Vietnamese neutrality also Third, the adininistratiOn belieyea the , sAI007 FX.ARS CONFERENCE aroused a demonstration in Saigon today. American _correspondents here are giving a - Vietnamese leaders have feared that if such Several thousand Vietnamese students, in a distorted picture to Congress of American a conference were held, it would seriously light-hearted mood, marched on the French involvement in tile_silooting war. The ad- undercut the morale of the Vietnamese Army Embassy to demonstrate against President ministration feels tho re_poyters are magnify- and help fan support here for a neutral de Gaulle's proposals for neutrality and uni- ing incidents where Amersican fie,s, i,?9-910fit- 11s _ _ - aervicerneri Vietnam. fication with Communist North Vietnam. nd thelnAelv, k AatioA And are Nix. McNamara delivered President John- One student said, "We'd like to do a Ja- Writhig too 71.1.F.1_2all.:Mut American casualties. -sonis assurances orally in a closed session karta," a reference to the recent sacking and ?1*-'4YS fisi riEWs,9?YrAa9gD, , with, Maj. Gen. Duong Van Minh, Chairman burning of the British Embassy in Jakarta The r correspondents petitioned M. Mc- _ _ of the Military Revolutionary Council, and by Indonesian demonstrators opposed to Ma- Na other leaders of the ruling junta. mara to , ease th,e CA infprmation policy. laysia. But there was no violence. They are convinced information on American Even before today, key U.S. officials were The crowd, composed of boys and girls casnalties 0 being withheld or at least sub- . . saying privately that with a recent sharp from the Government-run high schools and jected to unnecessary delays. deterioration in the war effort, the 1965 Saigon University students, was shouting They complained that South Vietnamesetroop withdrawal goal was unrealistic. cheering, and laughing as It trooped along officers had ,intervened successfully to pre-the sunny boulevards, first to the Embassy Some diplomatic observers maintained that Vent thel:correspondents from riding on U.S.and then to the French Cultural Center. the goal, announced by the White House helicopters engaged in transporting combat early in October, was never meant as an STATEMENTS PRESENTED units to battlefields. inflexible commitment. They suggested that Mr, IVIcilainara ,-11Stenesi sympathetically. it was intended primarily for domestic polit- After about an hour three student leaders, At an airport news conference,,he sato_hils ical purposes. escorted by four Vietnamese soldiers and two optimism over the security situation was In today's meeting the generals were re- police commissioners, went to the Embassy based on effectinmsg .nt the stratagic ported to have asked Mr. McNamara about gate and asked' to present a statement to 'villages that are springing up all over South an editorial in the New York Times Decem- French officials. They saw, the charg?'af- faires, Georges Perruche. Vie t_riaJn and on the improved training of ber 8, suggesting discussions on Vietnamese the divil Guard and Self-DefenS neutrality. e Corps. -- BATTLE PACE ACCELERATED Other Americans here are impatient for a The generals wanted to know whether comprehensive plan for the pacification of this _represented Washington's policy, and SAIGON, December 20.?Secretary McNa- the Mekong Delta provinces. But Mr. Mc- they were given assurances that it did not. mars, will confer in Honolulu with Adm. Nannp,ra Seeriled Ceilte4t,witht1eusl _re- U.S. officials were reported to have said that Harry D. Felt, commander of U.S. forces in settlement pperation he visited in an Knyen if a conference about Cambodia were held. the Pacific, and will then return to Wash- Province, Thgq SoRth in Washington would insist that it be limited ington. a Comninntst-controlled Area lia0 been to Cambodia and that the conference would During his visit here, South Vietnamese Moved forcibly or voluntarily into a military not mean any change in the 'U.S. commit- forces stepped up their activity against the zone controlled by the 31st Regiment. Vietcong guerrillas. An American spokes- zone to the war here , man, said that there had been no significant _GUERRILLA scTIvrry OfF But these assurances were understood to contact, but that "with major operations in Mr. McNamara Was told there had been a have fallen short of a categorical declara- the Mekong Delta and north of Saigon, we sharp falloff ir guerrilla activity in the area. tion that the United States would not under can expect fireworks in the near future." :Despite his cheerful assessment, Mr. Mc- any circumstances back or attend a con- There are reports that the ruling junta, Namara Is _reported to hold realistic Views on ference on Cambodian neutrality, which has been accused by some U.S. officials the probable length of the war. He is Said THREE MEETINGS ARE HELD of concentrating on politics at the expense to feel that years will pass before South Viet- Mr. McNamare met three times with the of the war, is planning now to change its nainis,secure, junta leaders last night and today. The ses- tactics and concentrate striking power in key Asked if he had evidence of infiltration sions were also attended by Henry Cabot regions until they are fully pacified. from Communist North Vietnam by way of Laos, Mr. McNamara replied: Lodge, the U.S. Ambassador; John A. McCone, Some regions?particularly the Mekong Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; Delta and the country's southern tip, where "Withont, qualifications, the ansWer is yes. William P. Bundy, Assistant Secretary of the Communist hold is strongest?would be I have seen, Owing my visit here munitions Defense for International Security Affairs; left temporarily under the control of the Which were manufactured in Communist and Gen. Paul D. Harkins, commander of the Vietcong. Chinn and brotight into South Vietnam, pre- U.S. forces in South Vietnam. "But this won't be for long," a Vietnamese surnably through the Laotian border, I have seen -Other evidence of _infiltration, some of In the final session at General Minh's office, officer said. "As we pacify the key regions, it gathered by U.S. personnel." Mr. McNamara., Mr. McCone, and Mr. Lodge we will move out and get them." Gen, Lyman L. Lemnitzer, Chairman of met privately with General Minh and two Although Secretary McNamara, after a visit the U.S. Jot/at Glaiefs Staff, who accom- other junta leaders?Maj. Gen. Tran Van 3 months ago, said he believed the Vietna- panied Mr. McNamara, said he had detected Don, the Defense Minister, and Maj. Gen, mese could handle the Communists without a greater feeling of self-confidence among Le Van Khn, secretary general of the junta, the present massive U.S. help, American 018- the Civil Guard and e1f.7,1;lefense units. who is considered General Minh's right-hand cials now express concern. They are getting improved training and are man. Nguyen Ngoc Tho, Premier of the "If things don't get moving in 90 days . provisional Government, also attended, we are lost," one American official said, losing fewer weapons under attack, he said air er most of the junta-15 generals? A U.S. spokesman put the American com- [From the New York Alines Dec. 21 1963j attended a 2-hour session of free give and bat-death toll at 89 after an unsuccessful 'Crump S2wrzs L041OES LaG5 RECALL search for the pilot of a fighter-bomber that OF ; Vmr.ns,m ,F.91W,E ..KOTAK4s.& ASSURES After the final meeting, which lasted an crashed on a dive-bombing run early in Oc- JtruTA Aiwors Wyri, SWAY As LONG AS hour, Mr. McNamara held a closing strategy tober. conference with U.S. officials at their military -- WAyfrno AND NErdaZ13?Jonmairr SENDS PruncE command headquarters. In the evening he [From the New York Times, Oct. 3, 1963] 4 ? left on an Air Force jet for Honolulu, VIETNAM VICTORY BY THE END OF 1965 EN.. By Hendrick Smith) SAIGON, SOUTH :VIETNAM, December 20.? Before boarding his plane, Mr. McNamara VISAGED BY UNITED STATES' OFFICIALS SAY Secretary f issued a terse statement that was considered ? o. Defense Hobert_ O. McNamara WAR MAY makA WON IP POLITICAL CR/SIS DOES gave SomP Yie4141A'S leaders apledge of sup- _ reserved and cautious in its comments about NOT HAMSTRING EFFORT?WARN ON REPRES- port troll.; President Johnson today. The SION: MCNAMARA AND TAYLOR TELL THE the course of the war. United StatQS ylhbacit the, 'WAX against Corn-OPTIMISM IS QUALIFIED PRESIDENT AND SECURITY COUNCIL OF THEIR niunist glISITUIRS as long as its help is needed Mr. McNamara said he had thoroughly MISSION and wanted, the Vietnamese leaders were discussed with U.S. officials the American (By Tad Szulc) told. program for "providing training and logis- WASHINGTON, October 2.?The United i According to reliable Sources, the message tical support to the South Vietnamese war States said tonight that the war in South did not specifically mention any date for the effort" 4.1n4 hfAlleusj the Vietnamese gen- Vietnam might be won by the end of 1965 No, 103--,4 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP666160403R000200140015-7 11356 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 if the political crisis there did not signiff- gency had been suppressed or until Viet- cantly affect the military effort. names? forces "are capable of suppressing A formal statement of U.S. policy, ap- it." proved by President Kennedy after a Na- Mr. McNamara and General Taylor were tional Security Council meeting at the White reported to believe that "the major part" House, warned that while repressive actions of the U.S. military task could be completed by the Saigon regime had not yet "signiff- by the end of 1965. although a limited num- cantly affected" the war effort. "they could her of training personnel might still be re- do so in the future." It said that under the present conditions most of the 14,000 U.S. military personnel could be withdrawn from Vietnam by the end of 1965 and that 1.000 men might be able to leave by the end of this year. "The political situation In South Vietnam remains deeply serious," the statement said. RASED ON RECOMMENDATIONS The policy statement was approved on the basis of recommendations from Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, Gen. Maxwell D. Taylor, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Henry Cabot Lodge, Ambassador to South Vietnam. Mr. McNamara and General Taylor re- turned here early today from a week-long factlInding mission in Vietnam on Presi- dent Kennedy's orders. The mission was designed to evaluate the military and political situations in the Southeast Asian country, with particular emphasis on whether the political crisis, stemming from the regime's repression of its Buddhist and other opponents, is affecting the 8-year-old war against the Communist Vietcong guerrillas. POLICY MAT RE REVIEWED Essentially, the object of the mission was to try to resolve the profound differences within the administration over the state of affairs in South Vietnam and the future course of U.S. policy there. The statement, which was read to news- men by Pierre Salinger, White House press secretary, after the 50-minute meeting of the National Security Council, deliberately avoided committing the United States to a frozen position toward the regime of Presi- Ambassador Lodge. dent Ngo Dinh Diem. "The security of South Vietnam Is a major Administration quarters said later that interest of the United States as of other free while the present decision was to maintain nations. We will adhere to our policy of military and economic aid to South Viet- working with the people and Government of nam at its present levels, this policy would South Vietnam to deny this country to corn- come under review at any time if it became munism and to suppress the externally stim- clear that, indeed, the political crisis was ulated and supported insurgency of the Viet- seriously damaging the conduct of the war. cone as promptly as possible. Effective per- In that sense, it was acknowledged, the formance in this undertaking is the central United States was, in effect, placing the Diem object of our policy in South Vietnam. regime on notice that it might have to re- -The military program in South Vietnam consider its support for South Vietnam if has made progress and is sound in principle, adequate measures were not taken to redress though improvements are being enegetically the political situation. sought Officials said that although the policy "major U.S. assistance in support of this statement deliberately avoided making a military effort is needed only until the insur- formal judgment that the war could not be geocy has been suppressed or until the na- won without a meaningful political change tonal security forces of the Government of in Saigon, the implication was there for South Vietnam are capable of suppre ? -"l It. President Diem to see. "Secretary McNamara and General ylor The statement said that U.S. policy re- reported their judgment that the major part mained one of "working with the people and of the U.S. military task can be completed Government of South Vietnam to deny this by the end of 1965, although there may be a country to communism," but added signifi- continuing requirement for a limited number cantly that "effective performance in this of U.S. training personnel. undertaking is the central object of our pot- "They reported that by the end of this year ie in South Vietnam." the U.S. program for training Vietnamese quired. By the end of thiss year. the statement said, the training program for the South Vietnamese forces should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. personnel can be withdrawn from the country, in the opinion of Mr. McNamara and General Taylor U.S. military strength in South Vietnam has risen from 685 men in early 1961 to more than 14,000 men at this time. The buildup began after General Taylor's first mission to Vietnam in 1961. Mr. McNamara and General Taylor went into a top-secret White House meeting short- ly after 6 p.m., about 12 hours after their return here from a weeklong factlinding relsoion in Vietnam. They had given Mr. Kennedy a preliminary briefing at a morning conference. The Presi- dent then called the Council meeting for the early evening. WHITE HOURS STATEMENT ON VIETNAM (POIIDWIng is the text of a statement read by the White House press seerteary, Pierre Salinger. after a meeting of the National Security Council today.) WASHINGTON, October 2.?"Secretary Mc- Namara and General Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the Na- tional Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. "Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of U.S. policy was ap- proved by the President on the basis of rec- ommendations received from them and from [Prom the New York Times, May 16, 1e641 Meanosaas LIEGES FuRTHER U.S. Am FOR VIET- NAM WAR: BACK FROM SAIGON, HE GIVES PRESIDENT A PLAN To SEND MORE MoNEy AND MEN?DEFENsE CHIEF SATs VIETCONG CAN LINDERERINE REGIME IF COUNTERATTACK Is Wxesc (By Jack Raymond) WAsHINGToN, May 14.?Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara laid before President Johnson today a new plan for increased mili- tary anti economic support for South Viet- nam. Accelerated Communist activity will re- quire expanded U.S. support, particularly to increase the size of the South Vietnamese Air Force, Mr. McNamara said at a news con- ference after reporting to the President. This may require modest increases in the number of U.S. training personnel in South Vietnam, he added. The Defense Secretary repeated earlier pre- dictions of ultimate victory against the Com- munist insurgency. "But I want to emphasize it is not going to come soon." he said. "This is not that kind of war. This is a war for the confidence of the people and the security of those people. and that kind of war is a long, hard war." TALKS LAST HOUR AND HALF The Defense Secretary and Gen, Maxwell D. Taylor, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, reported to President Johnson and his aids for hours, shortly after returning from their Saigon mission. It was Mr. Mc- Namara's fifth trip to Vietnam. Mr. McNamara, with General Taylor by his side, afterward met reporters in the Fish Room of the White House. He said that the Communists in Vietnam had increased their- terrorist activities in recent weeks, and ex- plained that his proposals for increased sup- port to the government of Nguyen Khanh were being considered. He noted that this might involve sending more American troops. Additional meetings with the President on the topic have been scheduled for tomorrow and the next day, Mr. McNamara said. POLICE UNITS WILL RETURN The United States withdrew 1,000 men from South Vietnam at the end of last year leaving 15,500. Two military police unite are due to be returned, however, in addi- tion to more training personnel for the Air Force. The role of U.S. military forces in South Vietnam is officially characterized as the pro- viding of training and logistical support U.S. pilots and ground soldiers go into the combat zones, however, and are authorized to fire when fired upon. According to the latest official estimates. 128 Americans have been killed by hostile action in South Vietnam since January 1 1961. In addition, 87 casualties have beer suffered in actions not attributed to tin enemy. The number of wounded is official ly estimated at 854 and 9 persons are missing In funds, the American effort in Soutl Vietnam is costing $500 million a year. The Defense Secretary also disclosed tha he had been summoned to appear before th House Armed Services Committee at a close, It said that the United States sought to should have progressed to the point where hearing next Tuesday. support Vietnamese efforts to defeat "ag- 1.000 U.S. military personnel assigned to The committee has made known that 1 gression" as well as "to build a peaceful South Vietnam can be withdrawn. wishes to question Mr. McNamara on charge and free society." "The political situation in south Viet- that the U.S. propeller-driven airplanes i: "The United States has made clear its narn remains deeply serious. The United South Vietnam are obsolescent and hay continuing opposition to any repressive se- States has made clear its continuing oppoen- caused the deaths of American pilots. tions in South Vietnam," it said. tion to any repressive actions in South Viet- The Secretary of the Air Force, Eugene Is Up to now, the statement said, the Mc- nam. While such actions have not yet signiff- Zuckert, denied the charges yesterday. M Namara-Taylor mission found that "the mill- cantly affected the military effort, they could McNamara himself said at the airport, v.the tary program in South Vietnam has made do so in the future, he arrived this morning, that the aircra: progress and is sound in principle, though "It remains the policy of the United States being used in South Vietnam were "we improvements are being energetically in South Vietnam, as in other parts of the chosen for the purpose in hand." sought." world, to support the efforts of the people "I think it is necessary again to emote It said that "major US, assistance" was of that country to defeat aggression and to size that this is an antiguerrilla war,- I needed only until the Communist Maur- build a peaceful and free society." said. Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For Reliztoe 2005/02/10 CIA-RDP66B00403R004/11030140015-7 1964 COi?761tESSiONAL AEC ATE 't* l'e'Ciet'ary'S'Cifithinerit'W-ainnrins-Wer 'to reiriarke:Off?;th States close nOt use modern" lerAgliter'-'aireraft in -South-Vrernani. he Mifed_ States IS not a Signatory to the Geneva,' agreements of 10'54 that ended the Preneli7Indoeli1na war agreements provide that no triodein jet alierafthe intro- tInced, into the -area , . Washingtbri has, bbive:Ver, indicated Its Intention to abide by the a ' greement In re- Cent days, nevertheleaS," the official position hs stressed not the Geneva agreements but the tactical requirements f the terrain. 'It was -thinouneed yesterday that -75 Douglaa'diyi'aidei designated and ,A-1I, were :bang' sent to South Vietnam to replace the B--1-36 fl liter- hanibeth that Were -recently Withdrawng and the T-28 trainers still in -use; "Plie Sjiyraider is a, propeller plane. 'The, United States does, however, have two types of jet aircraft in South Vietnam. A A ISW RV--401. reconnaissancejets have been flying photo missions. In addition, 11-2 1.4:0.01-raninesiorxiv4unsseiliSensotithr_th-eytietnarriese airfields presumably cover -much Of -sofitheaat Asia* -secretary McNamara discussing the ac- celerated Vie-teeing attacks, Said that they were directed primarily at the rural popula- tion to erode confidence in the Protective *effort of the .Saigon government With the rate of "kid ans' pi g murders, and ainbu4hee increasing ",very - 'substan- tially" in recent weeks, the Secretary said, It is "absolutely --essential" for the GoVern- Slant of South Vietnam to Increase its ;counterattacking activity. 1-1e said it was slSo vital. "that we consider Ways and means through increased economic assistance, in- 'Ll.enaSeedr4tliVtArtY stPP"-t- to 'assist V.-9(31r7 -ernlnt of Vietnam." . Asked Whether the plan tos teli p thg Support made "obsolete" the- preuviously. onnouneed,pian to withdraw most 'U.S. forces by 1-965, Secretary, McNaniara answered, as lie 13a In the ?past, that "our primary fiinc- tisonje_Snocnee?. training, support, and logistical a sta ? A6 the units" COMplete'their- trOAbind Work, they will be sithdraviii, he Said 'Itmay be neceSsary -in order 't-0_exPand :the training, particularly for the increases in the regular and paramilitary, fere-es- Of -tSiopunlirti.V.i.e.tri412?_to, rel. over Certain addi- plmrpesbeelf,i44'0,S4-5 ,11-'.11theeljr,.wh_eiysapiele:;'/??'it-f9hr4:t-t'hbaet- triThe ttbritod*Sjy,:z- t.1:1-4k4atnjrn' Ode 'gear 'diet io_pv: top waa no longer bound by the earlier forecat. K40i-1 .,491sTeiet Aaic4is' Lien. , TYTH K ,NA, May - /4.14a Nguyen IChanh paid form all tributo today to the Americans who have died _de- fending South Vietnam from the Re .aWarcl.ec1 the eed al of the s ommonder Oen, ,chaileo, -9 es;etYn?lient;CtieftoofIlitabje. Military Assistance Advisory Group in South Vietnam. The citatIon to. General ,TiMin- PS Said ,he bad showed.showed.Traidewortny: spirit Colo,p- eratioxi." Turning to the Americanoffipers present, Pr.914Pr Zhgnh said "ii ghl on our side. e on the Vietnaineae 'Side, it is 't more _SO A il.1 come to For you, Our Americanfriends,Whe have "I want, to say here how we aPpre- ,,,,uisteyeour Tra41, ;?7aeFITIPeq..71gu_ceh rethan_ qco nex,e l/4, ay," ?given tb_etr Dyes jto 448 lb proud them. _ They have lied eo,13. that niuicinLot -Vietuameec_remain gusts ?AtrENers rThe atvreld Ceremony for General Timmes was attende,d by 'Gen, Paul D. Harkins, out- going commanding general of the American Military Assistance Command, which was recently enlarged to include the function's Of the Military Assistance Advisory Group. Meanwhile, in a move aimed at -tempering religious conflicts betWeen Buddhists and Roman Catholics in central Vietnam, the Justice Ministry today announced the post- ponement of the trial of former Maj. Dang Sy, commander of troops' that fired upon Buddhist demonstrators in Hue a year ago. The' Government Said the trial would be postponed from Monday until after the Buddhist celebrations Set- for May 26. "[Prom the New "York Tithes, May 15, 1964] TEXT or THE MCNAMARA-TAYLOR NEWS CONFERENCE WASHINGTON, May 14.?Following is the text of the remarks about Vietnam by Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara and Gen. Max- well D. Taylor, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a news conference in the White -House today: - Mr. MCNAMARA. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps General Taylor and I can give you a few words of comment of what -we found during our recent visit to Saigon and then respond to a few of your questions. -There is no question in our minds but what the Communists have stepped up their rate -of attack in recent weeks in South Vietnam -primarily against the rural population and primarily in the form of tactics designed to harass the rural population, to instill terror in them, to erode away their confidence in the ability of their Government to provide for their physical security. These attacks have taken the forms of kid- mapings, ambushes, murders?terrors of every form. They have been directed par- ticularly against the leaders of the provincial -governments, the district governments, the - -villages. They have kidnaped district -chiefs, for example, and literally cut off their heads. They have ambushed the officials of the districts and the provinces. One of these ambushes took place while we were there. The rate of kidnaPings, murders, am- bushes has increased very substantially in re- cent weeks. It is absolutely essential, there- fore that the Government of Vietnam in- crease its activity to counter these attacks and that we consider ways and means through increased economic assistance, in- creased military support to assist the Gov- ernment of Vietnam in that activity. INCREASE IN FORCES SOUGHT " . . We have, agreed with them that their regu- lar military forces and their paramilitary forcea must be increased in size very sub- Stantially and very soon. We have agreed that . the number of aircraft in the Viet- namese Air Force must be increased. While General Taylor and I were there in early March, we agreed we should have added 75 A-1 type aircraft to the Vietnamese Air Force. Yesterday , we considered it desirable to increase by 100 percent the number of Vietnamese pilots and to further strengthen that air force, and this will be done very promptly. Other steps that will add to the ability to effectively protect the rural population have also been agreed upon and will be under- taken soon. Perhaps T can respond to some of your questions and General Taylor as well. EXTENSION OF WAR DISCUSSED Question. Mr. Secretary, you say it is ab- solutely essential for the Government to counter these attacks. Does this or does -this not argue that maybe the war ought to be carried across into North Vietnam from which the logistics and other suppliers come? Answer. I think you would agree that to counter effective terror tactics of the type that are being directed against the rural population requires action on, the soil of Sonth Vietnam, and a proper response to 41tC terror tactics directed against that rural population would not be reliance upon military pressure upon the north. This is not to exclude that as a possible action. Whether or not such action is undertaken however, it can only be considered a sup- plement to and not a substitute for effec- tive action on the soil of South Vietnam. Question. Mr. Secretary, does this stepup in the war and the need for putting more men and planes in make obsolete the Ken- nedy plan for U.S. withdrawal by 1965? Answer. I think we should recognize that our primary function Is one of training, sup- port, and logistical assistance. As the U.S. units in South Vietnam complete their train- ing functions, I am sure you would all agree that they should be withdrawn. It may be necessary in order to expand the training, particularly for the increases in the regular and paramilitary forces of South Vietnam, to send, over certain additional U.S. person- nel. If that becomes necessary, they will be sent for that purpose. Question. Mr. Secretary, I understand you have been directed to come before the House Armed Service Committee to retell your find- ings on the Vietnamese war. When will you go? Answer. I have been told this morning, al- though I have not actually checked it with the committee yet, that they would like me to come before them next Tuesday, and if that be the case, ,I will be delighted to do so. Question. Mr. Secretary, there are reports that the South Vietnamese Government is in particular trouble because of many of the leaders in the area just south of Saigon hav- ing been shifted around by the new Govern- ment so extensively that they just can't seem to get themselves organized. Is this one of the things you have looked into and is it true? Answer. There have been frequent changes of government and, government leaders. Since the first of November, in 35 of the 41 Provinces, there have been changes in Prov- ince chiefs. In nine of the Provinces, I be- lieve the Province chiefs have been changed three times since the first of November. This was to be expected as an aftermath of the two changes in the national government. The village, the district, and the Provincial levels however, are seeing a stabilization of personnel at the present time, and I have every reason to believe that the number of changes will decline substantially in the fu- ture. ? CHANGES IN MILITARY CHIEFS Question. Have there been similar changes with military leaders? _Answer. There have been changes in mili- tary leaders as well since the first of Novem- ber, but the frequency of such changes is declining dramatically. Question. Mr. Secretary, did the President approve any specific plan of step-up this morning? Answer. The President is considering the suggestions made for increased economic and military support.' Question. When do you anticipate a deci- sion? Answer. We expect to meet again tomor- row and the next day on these questions. -Question. What would be your estimate, sir, of how many more U.S. training person- nel woula be _needed In Vietnam? Answer. I think, on balance, the number is not likely to increase substantially. There will be both increases and decreases associ- ated with the strengthening of the Vietnam- ese forces. Question. Is there any possibility that our returning personnel will be augmented by people from Taiwan and similar other allies? Answer. I think if is highly desirable that other flags be represented particularly in such areas, for example, as the supply of medical personnel and the supply of train- Approved For Release 2005/02/10-: CIA-RDP66B00403R0002001po15-7 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP661300403R000200140015-7 11358 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 ing and advisory personnel. As you know, both Secretary Rusk and I have approached other governments requesting such as- sistance. Question. Have there been any accept- ances? Answer. I have received a very sympathetic response to the requests I have made. I have not had a chance to discuss with Secretary Rusk the discussions he has held during the past week. Question. Can you name some of the coun- tries? Answer. I think it would be better to wait until they themselves are ready to announce official action in response to our request. Question. Mr. Secretary, how do you feel the war has been reported out there? Answer. I think all of you are perhaps bet- ter qualified to discuss that than I. On bal- ance, to answer your question specifically. I think the reporting has been very good. Rec- ognizing the fact that in a very real sense we have 41 different wars, and it is extremely difficult for any one man, any one reporter to intimately be acquainted with all of the variations in the military actions and guer- rilla actions that are occurring particularly when you recognize the character of those actions. As I stressed a moment ago, these are terror tactics, terror operations directed against in- dividuals, and you can well imagine the dif- ficulty of reporting that kind of war in 41 different provinces. COMPARISON SOUGHT Question, Mr, Secretary, would you com- pare the conduct of the war now with your last visit as only making progress? Answer. I think we are, and I remain per- sonally convinced?and I would like to have General Taylor who is far better qualified than I to speak to this?that persistent execution of the political-military plans of General Khanh's government, plans that they have developed and that we have con- curred in and have agreed to provide assist- ance, will lead to successful conclusion war. But I want to emphasize it is not going to come soon. This is not that kind of war. This a war for the confidence of the people and the security of those people, and that kind of war is a long, hard war. Question. What measures do you recom- mend? Answer. Let me suggest that General Taylor comment on this same question. General TAYLOR. I could add very little more except to say that General Khanh im- presses me as a very energetic military leader. He thoroughly comprehends this complicated war?that it is not purely military by any manner of means but involves political and economic facets as well. / think (that) it is very encouraging and perhaps surprising to find in a young man who has so quickly pulled together the many facets of this problem. However, as the Sec- retary has said, this is not something that can be done overnight. The programs being executed are involved, they are complicated, and I think they would test any government. Question. General, how do you find the young officers in the South Vietnamese mili- tary forces? Answer. Somewhat like the young officers in Korea, whom I know much better. They try hard. They are generally courageous. They have very little professional back- ground, however. They make the mistakes of relatively untrained officers. However, the officer corps is growing and maturing every month and with time, of course, will be constantly better and more effective. Question. General, do we know why the Communists,have changed their tactics re- cently? Answer. I don't think they have changed it in quantity so much as they have in quality. They have taken very heavy losses, as you know, in recent weeks. This cannot be pleasant for them especially when one con- siders that a wounded man for them is very frequently a fatality. Hence, it is quite un- derstandable that they have shifted now, making the populace more the target rather than the formed bodies of troops. THC ADVERSARY IN VIETNAM (By Bernard B. Fall) As the analysis published in the April issue of War/Peace Report clearly showed, there Is some room for debate as to who exactly the adversary is in what many already call the "Second Indochina War." Some see the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF) as a genuinely local insurrection created out of despair in the face of the late Diem regime's absurd policies. Others (and this is the official view) consider the NLF solely an extension, for use in South Vietnam, of the North Vietnamese regime or even of Peiping. Each side adduces its own evidence to prove its case: on one hand it is contended that even the NLF "regulars" are indeed **southerners" (which is true) and on the other, one points to the captured Com- munist bloc weapons to substantiate outside Communist support (also true). Obviously. the actual facts lie somewhere in between. In my view, and on the basis of my own experience in underground warfare in Nazi- occupied France and later in Indochina, it is possible to lead an insurrection politically and militarily even under guerrilla condi- tions. That such a fairly centralized direc- tion exists in the south, and has existed at least since 1957, if not earlier, can be fully substantiated. When the killing of village officials began on a large scale in 1957 (an officially admitted total of 472 were killed that year). significant cltusterings of the killings or-au-red in three Vietnamese prov- inces south of the Mekong River. That ob- viously did not happen simply because the village officials were more oppressive there than anywhere else, but simply because the guerrilla command had decided to clear those areas for the purpose of making them the permanent resistance bases they have since become. And the deliberate shift last year of Vietcong operations from the Vietnamese highlands to the Mekong Delta was another magnificently executed military tactic, with regular units slipping through the network of U.S.-advised South Vietnamese units with almost impunity. Unbelievably, that deliberate Vietcong move into the Mekong Delta was officially ex- plained away by the United States as part of "our strategy to sweep them steadily south- ward and finally corner them"; i.e., sweep the Vietcong out of an area where recruits and food were hard to get and into an area where food and recruits are plentiful and where all of Vietnam's most sensitive targets lay, in- cluding Saigon, with its industries, airports and Government installations. True, there has been a great deal of exag- gerated propaganda in Washington and else- where about Chinese and Russian help to the insurgents in view of the presence in South Vietnam of some Soviet- or Chinese-made antitank weapons and automatic rifles. As Arthur Dommen correctly assumes, the bulk of this ordnance comes from Laos. And the fact, for example, that some excellent Mads- den submachineguns?produced in Denmark, a NATO ally?have been found among the Vietcong does not ipso facto prove that Den- mark backs the Communists in Vietnam; it simply means that arms merchants have no national loyalties. Soviet-made guns (cap- tured by the Israelis in Egypt and resold by them on the world's arms market) can be bought within a mile of the Pentagon on the Alexandria. Va., docks?and quite legally, too. The unfortunate fact is that nine-tenths of all modern weapons in Vietcong hands are standard American weapons captured from the South Vietnamese military and paramili- tary forces. Officially, the loss of over 12,000 such weapons in 1963 is acknowledged. What the South Vietnamese may have lost but not reported to their own higher com- manders or the U.S. military advisory com- mand, may run much higher. It is obviously far better and easier for the Vietcong to cap- ture matching ammunition for their Amer- ican weapons from "our" Vietnamese than to get Soviet or Chinese ammunition from Hanoi. But aid in the form of political and mili- tary cadres does come from the North, as well as some fully constituted regular units composed of southern Vietnamese and moun- tain tribal soldiers. The presence in the South of the 120th, 126th, and 803d Vietcong regiments has been well known for the past 2 years and, according to the New York Times of April 13, 1964, the 108th Regiment has re- cently been identified in central Vietnam If that is true, then the Vietcong has recon- stituted in central Vietnam all the regular regiments which I knew there during the French-Indochinese war. The 803d and the 108th were particularly dreaded for their junglegoing capability; in June 1954, they mercilessly destroyed a French regimental combat team equipped with tanks and artil- lery whose core units had successfuly fought the Chinese and North Koreans while with the U.N. forces in Korea. Those regiments left South Vietnam in 1854 for the North. Their presence now inside South Vietnam certainly constitutes what the International Control Commission for the maintenance of the 1959 ceasefire provisions has called (with the vote of its Indian and Canadian members over- ruling the objections of its Polish member) "evidence that armed and unarmed person- nel, arms, munitions and other supplier have been sent from the zone in the NortY to the zone in the South with the object 01 supporting, organizing and carrying out hos- tile activities." NO LZGAL REDRESS It is true, as my compatriot Philippe De- villers said in his article written in 1961 (i.e., long before the NLF developed to it present importance), that many simplc farmers and even urban politicians and in- tellectuals chose to fight with the Vietcon? rather than face the certitude of an inde- finite stay in one of Diem's infamous con- centration camps. That will always be tin case when men with real grievances are pm into a position where no legal redress it offered them. The same situation occurrec in 1946 when the French, still hell-beni upon rebuilding their colonial empire, of- fered no honorable way out to the nationalist Vietnamese opposition. The most active op- position members joined the Vietminh in it: armed struggle against the French?not for the purpose of making Vietnam Communist but to make it free. This history does not mean, however, thal the Vietminh was not Communist-controller nor that it did not end by creating a wholl: Communist-dominated state in the zone o Vietnam under its control. The same error I fear, is being made in evaluating the NLF The fact that its program does not at presen contain Communist objectives offers littl guarantee as to its future intentions. I def anyone to find a single Communist inflectioi in Ho Chi Minh's 1946 Vietminh constitu tion. It was a document designed to wi: maximum support among the broad popiila tion, and it did that most effectively. An the reason offered quite openly by Nort Vietnam in 1960 for the abrogation of tb 1946 document and its replacement by tough, Communist-line constitution SW that the old constitution "no longer was accordance with Socialist realities." That In all likelihood what would happen to ti present NLF program the day that Prot comes to power in Saigon. This does not mean, however, that I est:. with those who believe that the only wi out of the present Vietnamese dilemma is Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For Rele 2005/02110 : CIA-RDP66B00403ROOW00140015-7 - 1964 _CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE 11359 - rice. (During the war against the French, the standard for Vietminh troops was 250 grams daily, and I noticed how robust were the front soldiers of 1964 compared with the lean troops I had seen 10 years earlier at the time of Dienbienphu). The standard arm, is the U.S. carbine, with a fair sprinkling of the much appreciated Garands. Of course, the front soldier, like the Vietminh soldier before him, marches on the famous Ho Chi Minh sandals. The only difference is that Michelin has been replaced by Goodyear. The soles are from auto tires, the four thongs which keep them in place being strips of inner tubes. They are by far the most comfortable form of footwear ever devised for heat and jungle conditions. With such equipment, a front battalion can march 15 miles after dark to attack and destroy a post, and march back to its base with the booty before sunup. (In tropical South Vietnam, there are at least 12 hours of darkness every day/of the ,rear). In Cu Chi district, which starts at about 7 miles north of Saigon, I was shown a battered old U.S. carbine, introduced to me as "our mother carbine." After a large seiz- ure of arms at Tua Hai near Tay Ninh, in February 1960, Cu Chi and the five other dis- tricts of Gia Dinh, the province in which Sai- gon is situated, each received one carbine. "Each carbine has had many litters of chil- dren since," a local front leader explained with a grin. "With that one carbine and lots of dummy wooden guns and explosions pro- duced from carbide for bicycle lamps, we very soon attacked our first post, and re- placed our dummy guns with real ones." 20-year counterguerrilla operation. Here again the histericai precedents, show various pestibilities; _ 1. COMMunist guerrillas do not always win and the Soviet bloc does net always sup- port them to the bitter end. ?The Commu- nista 4?heir, guerrillas in Greece, Azerbaijan, Malaya, and the Philippines-- and in Swath Korea, where there was for a long time a serious guerrilla problem. Milo- van. Djilas' "Conversations With Stalin" has a Magnificent passage on Stalin's cold- blooded 'decision to, let the Greek Commu- nist ELAS- partisans die for nothing because he diclnet want te get war-exhausted Rus- sia entangled in a conflict with the United States. _ - 2. On the sitar hand, to negotiate with a Comnaimist opponent when one's original War Ainis are n9 longer attainable does not autematioally mean that one has to lose. his shirt; or that native forces being supported will therefore be totally demoralized. In Korea some of the toughest fighting went on While American and conniannist negotiators sat at Panmunjom for 2 years. The Republic of Korea forces Were not demoralized by the negotiations. My own experience has been that one fights harder if a reasonable end is In sight and one knows his side needs a vie= tory to strengthen its negotiating position. To be sure, the Laotian "sellout" of 1962 is usually dragged in at this point of the argument to prove hew badly the West 'usually fares in SUCH a situation. It was the late Gen. Walter Bedell Smith, a soldier- diplomat of the first rank, who said during the 1054 Genera conference that it was "dif- ficult to regain at the conference table what has already been lost on the battlefield." In Laos, thanks to a set of incredible illusions (now amply matched in Vietnam) , it was be- lieved that the Laotian .rightwing forces could be made to fight. The hard fact is that had the military war in Lace continued for .1 more month, all of Laos would, have been COminuniSt. put as a moult of the negotia- tions a wobbly neutralist government has, for the past 2 years, kept the Communist rathet Lae AWay from the sensitive Mekong Valley which borders on Thailand. Consid- ering the panic that gripped Bangkok in 1962 when it was erroneously announced that Ceminimist forces had broken through to the Mekong near Ban Houel Sal, that surely is an achievement. A Communist ad- vance there could never , have been halted Without at least very sizable American ground forces being ,committed at fanta,stic cost. 3. The North VietnanieSe stand to lose at least as much (if not more) than the South Vietnamese if the present second Indochina war "escalates." North Vietnam has not had a shot fired at it in anger in 10 years. One Stands an awful lot of dictatorship (look at Franco's Spain) just for the sake of not be- ing at war._ A single American saturation raid on North Vietriani may do away with 10 years of back-breaking "ocialist construc- tion" as well as with that feeling of peace. It would not (contrary to what some great oversimpliflers believe) bring an end to the insurgency hi South Vietnam; on the con- trary, with the gloves being off, North Viet- 1- with the NLF or Hanoi (one might well won- der whether this might not be more embar- rasing in a tete-a-tete than at a multipower conference which is now being heatedly re- jected) with as badly a deteriorated military situation as exists now?and just before a presidential election. And it is likewise ob- vious that General Khanh's regime in Saigon, whose rise to power was favored precisely be- cause he violently rejects any thought of negotiation, would view such contacts as a sellout. There is, after all, in neighboring Laos the example of the rightist General Phoumi, who was first encouraged to over- throw neutralist Prince Souvanna Phouma, only to be pressured 1 year later into accept- ing (and, in fact, supporting) the same souvanna Phouma as premier of a troika regime. Khanh would understandably re- sent being placed in the same kind of pre- dicament. ' But signs of a military stalemate?harder to perceive in Vietnam where there is no battleline to draw on maps, as there was in Korea?are nevertheless apparent. And the sole logical exit from such a situation is sooner or later a confrontation at the con- ference table. (From the National Guardian, May 21, 1964] BURCHETT IN VIETNAM: U.S. TAXPAYERS ARM GUERRILLAS (By Wilfred G. Burchett) FROM A LIBERATION FRONT BASE IN SOUTH VIETNAM.?Lf a delegation of U.S. taxpayers could have made the sort of journey I made they would have been scandalized. On one occasion, along a road in Tay Ninh Province which had been built with U.S. equipment in 1061 and had now been reduced by the guerrillas to a serpentine track just wide enough for bicycles and foot soldiers, we overtook a long line of National Liberation Front troops who were shifting their base. From behind the first impression was of an endless undulating line of white triangles, but as we grew closer, the white triangles turned out to be flour-bag haversacks, each bearing the clasped hands of friendship above the U.S. flag and the printed words: "Gift of the American people." As seen from behind, the typical Vietcong or Giai Phong Qua.n (liberation army) soldier, as they call themselves, is an inter- esting study. Attached to his webbing belt, from left to right, is first a tiny ingenious bottle lamp. It is made from French perfume bottles, with the top bored through to take a metal-encased wick which pops out auto- matically when the brass cap is removed. Cap and wick casing are made from U.S. cartridges. It is this tiny lamp that lights the way along jungle paths for night attacks. Next to the lamp hangs a bunch of hand grenades, made in NLF jungle arsenals; one I visited was turning out 5,000 grenades a month, and there are many such. Alongside the grenades is another "secret weapon" of the guerrillas, the nylon ham- mock which is standard equipment. Usually made from parachute nylon, it folds up into the space of a handkerchief; slung by s arachute cords between trees, it is the per. ect guerrilla bed. I slept in nothing else or almost 5 months and?with a mosquito et slung above and tucked in all areund?I ound it the most admirable sleeping equip. end for jungle travel. It can be slung and n.slung in a matter of seconds, just the time ecessary to pull the cords at each end?a hal factor in guerrilla conditions which de- and shifting camp at a moment's notice. Alongside the hammock is a water can- een, mostly with a big "U.S." on the cloth ontainer, but some hammered out from U.S. lane remnants and covered with NLF con- ainers made in a jungle uniform factory. inally, there is what looks like a sizable und bomb, wrapped in parachute cloth?in ct the day's ration of 750 grams of cooked nam would then throw her fearsonie (and ff now unemployed) regular divisions into the n fight-3.nd who can say what Red China f might throw in, That would "Koreanize"? or shall we say: "MacArthurize?"--the South .^" Vietnamese Conflict with all the unforesee- - able international consequences (in 1950, the , nuclear age was in its infancy and the U.N. ' still white dominated) that might follow. ni ,SOLE LOBICAL EXIT_ t It is my feeling that some sort of a c mutually acceptable accommodation will p eventually ensue from a more realistic ap- t preciation. of what the three above-cited F, factor really mean. It is understandable ro that Washington does net wish to negotiate fa In many other places I visited, I was told that their first weapons had come from the Tua Hai booty. Later, I tracked down Quyet Thang, the commander of the Tua Hai ac- tion a rawboned peasant who had been a guerrilla leader in the anti-French war. As this was the first large-scale military act in the Nambo (Cochin-China), I was interested in the details. The Liberation Front had not officially been set up in February 1960, when the Tua Hai action took place, but Quyet Thang explained that local committees ex- isted and that "the word had gone around" to set up self-defense units to resist the armed raids of the Diemist troops. "Some of us who had taken part in the anti-French war got together secretly and we agreed that we had to start armed resist- ance?but first we must have arms. The Diemists just then were conducting a sweep through Tay Ninh province with two divi- sions. Our plan was to set up a battalion of guerrillas and then attack the Tua Hai fortress, where we knew there was a large stock of arms." Over the next few months they combed the whole province for all weapons, no matter how old, that existed, This was an area to which the armed sects, Hoa Hoa, Cao Dai, and Binh Xuyen, had withdrawn in 1955, after having been crushed by Diem troops. Altogether Quyet Thank was able to muster 260 men, a few former resistance fighters like himself, but the majority youngsters who had fled to the forest to escape Diem's conscription gangs. "We also had 170 weap- ons, an ill-assorted lot, many of them archaic, and a strictly limited number of cartridges," Quyet Thang said. "Through some former resistance fighters who had been conscripted and were garrisoned at Tua Hai, we managed to smuggle scouts inside and examine the Whole layout." Tua Hai was?and still is?a formidable, square fortress built by the French. At the time Quyet Thang's men attacked, it was the garrison headquarters for the 32d Regi- ment of Diem's 21st Division, situated only about 2 miles north of Tay Ninh. "Our aim was to obtain 300 weapons and explain to the troops_ why we were fighting. We had Approved Poi- Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B0040R000200140015-7 01Ilk 4111114 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 11360 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 prepared some leaflets signed by the Peoplea'creeping up in.. the United States?and on To this must be added a grim probability. Self-Defense Forces. this poor country, too. The probability is that the U.S. military lead- Scouts managed to infiltrate in the small The disaster is a final Communist triumph ership out here is wrong in its belief that hours of the morning and placed mines all in South Vietnam. What is happening in our continuing superiority in firepower and around the main barracks. The explosion Laos Is peripheral, for the future of Laos mobility will overcome any crisis the enemy of the mines was the signal for a general will eventually be settled by the outcome can create. assault: "Within seconds the barracks were here in Vietnam. Firepower and mobility cannot be ex- ablaze, panic-stricken troops were racing for What is happening in Laos is a clear warn- plotted to win a battle begun by surprise at shelter, and our men had poured over the nig that the Communist timetable is much dusk, and over and finished before sunrise. rampart* to wipe out the command post and shorter than the Washington policymskers Yet a night's battle, ending in capture or seize the arms depots." Quyet 'Mang said, seem to suppose. destruction by the Communists of no more When I asked where the mines came from. Even if the Communist advance proceeds than a thousand or two thousand Vletna- he said some mine-making experts from the no further and an immediate crisis show- mese Reentsrs, might well cause the kind of anti-French war had fashioned them from down is thereby avoided, the alms--and paroxysm of alarm and defeatism that would TNT from unexploded U.S. bombe and shells, gains?of the enemy are obvious. To be- bring this war to an end. Timed for the moment of the assault was the gin with, they have gained elbow room in This is the crucial point. The position in arrival of 500 porters to carry off the booty. Laos, the corridor country. which will be Vietnam today?is above all?fragile. To very useful In a future crisis of the war in shatter this fragile position for good and all, hi- "In the arms depot there were thousands of weapons, the regimental stock and lots of spares. We piled them up and our fighters threw away their old weapons, grabbed the new ones and rushed off to continue the fight. The enemy rushed out of the fortress, then reformed and tried to assault us, but by then all the watchtowers were In our hands and their machineguns also. After almost 2 hours of fighting it was all over. and more than 800 rifles, and scores of pistols and machinegUns were in our hands. We carried off about 1,000 weapons in all, and could have had many more had we been able to transport them. There were lots of 578 mm. recoil-less cannon. I didn't know what they were, but we took five along anyway. Later they were very useful against block- houses and amphibious tanks." The guerrillas. outnumbered by about 10 to 1, lost 10 dead and 12 wounded in the action. About 300 weapons were kept for the battalion, and the others were djstributed to virtually every district in Cochin-China. and became the mother weapons which quickly started the process of rapid reproduction. Historians may later set the Pus Hai ac- tion as the beginning of the war in South though this would not be accurate. Vietnam. the enemy nee They have gained in Vietnam, too, since tious as the fight at Dienbienphu?a small unpunished Communist successes in Laos battle but one that went on for a long time. naturally cause Vietnamese doubts about In one night, almost before we know it, AMRIICA'S strength of will. And finally, the we may be overtaken by the disaster that is Communists policymakers in Hanoi must creeping up on us. also be concluding that they have made an Important test of this American strength of will, with delightfully encouraging re- sults. Hence the Laotian warning is dangerous to ignore. Yet it is far more dangerous to Ig- nore or misread what is happening here in South Vietnam. In a nutshell, the war effort here is approaching a breaking point. There are three solid reasons for believing that the breaking point may not be far off? unless the United States begins to take pre- ventive action. The first reason Is simply the growth of war weariness, the loss of patience and endurance. These have been the most striking consequences of the suc- cessive coups d'etat, beginning with the fall of President Ngo Dinh Diem. The psychological climate is therefore un- healthy. as the desertion rates in the army and civil guard units clearly attest. The hope of creating a healthier psychological Vietnam Nonetheless, it was the first large-scale ac- climate is all too slim, in turn. because Of the tion by the people's self-defense forces that unhealthy military situation. were later organized under a unified corn- President Johnson has asked for more aid mend into today's liberation army. The Pus for South Vietnam. and he has told Congress Hal action set the pattern for the innumer- that the new, more vigorous leadership of able attacks on posts which still today re- Gen. Nguyen Khanh is a very hopeful factor. main the principal suppliers of arms and Be is dead right on both points. But he ammunition, might better have told Congress that even "As a matter of fact." -concluded Quyet the efforts of General Khanh. vigorously Tbang with a grin, "we were a bit worried aided by the United States, are most unlikely as to what our people would say after the to turn the tide here. By doing more of the attack. The line at that time was to use usual things, we can at best hold on. arms only in self-defense. Only after the Tlae enemy is attacking in heavier and front was officially formed 10 months later heavier strength. often with disturbing ene- mas this changed. ill ut we figured that as ease. To turn the tide, General 'Chetah needs most places had no arms at all even for to find another 150.000 men, to fill up his self-defense, we had to get arms. So we de- exng units and to create the additional cided to call this a self-defense action." forces planned with Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Without these added If the American taxpayers' delegation men. Khania has no margin of advantage. would be scandalized to see all these fine But as the alarming desertion rate too plainly arms in the hands of the guerrillas, they suggests, recruiting this many more soldiers would have apoplexy if they were to visit the will be a slow btufiness if not an impossible jungle arms factories where carbines, light task [From the Washington Post, May 21, 19841 ADDITIONAL *126 MILLION VIET AID VOTED BY HOUSE GROUP (By John G. Norris) The administration won strong congres- sional support for its program of stepped-up aid for South Vietnam yesterday, as the Rouse Foreign Affairs Committee voted an additional $125 million for that southeast Asian countrv. Both the Foreign Affairs Committee, with its quick and unanimous approval of the added assistance. and the House Armed Serv- ices Committee. through Its chairman, Rep- resentative CARL Vnesosr, Democrat, of Geor- gia. expressed their confidence in the admin- istration's plans. "I am satisfied with what the (Defense) Department is doing and with what this Government is doing," said VINSON, after re- ceiving a 2-hour report from Defense Secre- tary Robert B. McNamara. "I am behind the position of the Secretary in the prose- cution of the war." Members of both groups are gloomy over the deteriorating situation in southeast Asia, but few see any alternative to continued full support of South Vietnamese forces fighting the Communist guerrillas. FIGURES RELEASED As the House committee approved the additional 455 million in military aid and $70 million in economic aid for South Viet- nam, the Defense Department declassified heretof are secret figures showing the scope of military assistance to that country. Now budgeted for Vietnamese military aid In the fiscal year beginning July 1 is $205.8 million, compared to $209.8 million this year and $211.5 million in fiscal year 1963. Including economic aid, but not the cost of maintaining 15.500 American troops there, the total assistance now contemplated for automatics, imitation Colt revolvers. moun- South Vietnam during the coming year is tains of hand grenades, and an incredible $477.8 million, compared to $432.5 million Meanwhile, in some Provinces In the delta, ' variety of special-purpose mines are being this year and $408.7 million in 1983. and in Quang Nal in the center of the. coun- try, the South Vietnamese Regular Army has made?almost exclusively with U.S. equip- This makes it evident that, until the re- already lost the upper hand in the contest meat. Here are U.S. lathes, drills, spot weld- cent decision to ask for an additional $125 with the Communist forces. In- sum, the re- era, everything from the generators that million, President Johnson's economy budget situation already exists that General Giap power them down to delicate balances for classically seeks to create. actually called for a cutback to $352.8 million measuring detonator charges?all U.S. mad in aid for South Vietnam in the coming year. end most of them with the clasped hands The defending forces are at stretch. and of friendship and the sign: "Gift of the they have no large, easily mobilizable re- The House Armed Services Committee's serves. Thus, South Vietnam resembles a closed session was called to inquire into American people" This legend was also bowl of water, or rather a howl of poison, recent press criticism that obsolescent planes stamped on the many different bicycles I employed in South Vietnam had caused the rode and on the outboard motors which pow- point. Put more into the bowl and there death of two U.S. fliers. In refuting such which has just reached the brimming-over ered the many sampans I traveled in. charges. McNamara told the committee that will be the devil of a mess. [From the Washington Post, May 20, 19841 Finally, the third reason for intense alarm American and Vietnamtse forces "are receiv- ing the best equipment available for the THE NIGHT THIEF GryEs WARNING IS General Ohm's obvious preparation to put unique task at hand." a lot more Into the bowl. This is the real (By Joseph Alsop) meaning of the battalions of North Vletna- se NAMARA TO RETURN &smote?Like a thief in the night, with mese Communist regulars which are now de- He told newsmen afterward that the equip- muffled foot slipping from shadow to decep- played just across the Vietnamese border, ment assigned to Vietnam was chosen with tIve shadow, a great national disaster is in Laos. regard to, first, the "enemy threat"; second ? Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For Re140 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R00440140015-7 1964 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE 11361 ."the capability of the Vietnamese to operate adjoining district, is moving more slowly with South Vietnam, Washington decided for tactical reasons to let the Secretary General, U Thant, and other members take the lead in evolving a specific proposal. Such international action, it is thought, would not only help the Cambodians, but also frustrate in some measure the move- ments of Communist guerrillas: Some of- ficials are already thinking beyond this pro- liosal to a time when the United Nations might receive or even gather reconnaissance Information about violations of South Viet- nam's other frontiers. The significant step, officials explained, despite Mr. Stevenson's cautious language, , lay in the breaking of a 10-year policy that was developed before the United Nations learned to function as a peacekeeping agency notably in the Congo, the Middle East and most recently in Cyprus. it"; and' third, "the effectiveness of (the than U.S. authorities would like. But there equipment) in relation to the operational is hope for an improvement soon, he said. requirements." U.S. advisers on the Mekong River at High-performance jet warplanes would not Sadec, the Vietnamese 9th Division's head- meet these requirements of the guerrilla war, quarters, said Vietcong units had started officials noted. : ` using Cambodia openly as .a sanctuary. They . Most of yesterday's session of the House reported 15 Communist incidents and 'at- Armed Services _Committee dealt with the tacks on Vietnamese frontier posts in 1 day. broader aspeCtS of tile Vietnamese war, and -- - members, did not get down ' to questions 'From the New York Times, May 22, 1964] about the obsolescent T-28 and B-26 planks. ra alEW. ,. rr .S. IDEAS ON ASIA?TENTATIVE STEP To- McNamara will return _ Monday, with Air WARD INVOLVING U.N. IN AREA IS BREAK IN Force SeCretary Eugene M:Zuckert, to go into 1O-Ya PATTERN _ this aspect of the war. (By Max Frankel) =Under questioning by newsmen, McNamara commented on -reports that Americans are WASHINGTON, May 21.?In its move at the' 'flying most of the air misifOna 'there. He United Nations today, the United States in- 'said "scores' of Vietnamese have been trained jected several new features into its policy as pilots: that they flew 1,8d0 Sorties in April, for southeast Asia. In effect, officials ac- and that the amount of their "eomba,,t flying knowledged, they were taking a small and has increased 800 percent since "januarf 1962. tentative step toward involving the In his prepared statement to the commit- United Nations in that threatened region, tee, McNamara said "the road ahead Will be thus breaking a 10-year-old pattern of Wash- long and hard" but "it is not in our tradi- ington thinking about the problem. -For the lion to JDAG1/ Off ,when the going gets tough." first time, the United ' States proposed an WASHINGTON, May 21.?In the present crisis Mentioning Itosciusto; Von Steuben, and international peacekeeping operation on the over Vietnam, it is not only the United States Pulaski, McNamara said; "The mission of our border between Cambodia and South Viet- that is being tested, but the United Nations ' men IA South Vietnam is the same as the nam. . and the whole postwar system of keeping mission of those Europeans who came to this The response of other nations will deter- the peace. 'country to train and assist Us in our fight mine whether Washington :would also con- - No doubt Washington has made many mis- f or liberty." template' a more extensive form of United takes in Vietnam over the last few years, but Nations observation of South Vietnam's ' [From the New YOrk Times; May 8, 19641 borders with Laos and North Vietnam. at least they were made in defense of honor- Itir.A14i til FAVOR or IlaoADER-171x0: ,OtyF "SAT- ' For the first time, also, the United -States The of the United Nations Charter. able promises and in keeping with the basic oort pacp.npa As,spaTs U.S. AIs SUEFFIENT ,, , , indicated that it was prepared at any time The United States did not agree at San Now at least to debate the entire southeast Asia situation, including its own actions, in the -Francisco in 1945 to oppose aggression only , &mop:, SOUTH VIETNAM, gay' 7.?Premier when it was easy or only close to home where world organization. Hitherto, Washington Nguyen kharth said today that U.S. aid was its power was predominant, but to try to has feared the interference of other nations, sufficient but he wotild welcome help Of any maintain order anywhere in the world. mistrusted the United Nations and accounted kind froM other nattous in the ?War against only to the 14 nations that signed the Geneva This is the underlying principle in Viet- the Oernipuniat guerrillas. _ agreement on former French Indochina in nam, and the Charter of the U.N. is quite The Prelillei: WAS COMMenting," on efforts 1954 specific about it. It obliges all members to by the .1'6111186n adthinistration to get 'assist- And for the first time, the United States unite their strength to maintain interns,- ance from niiinbcis of AC North Atlantic denounced as basically unworkable the sys- tional peace and security. It states in arti- Treaty Organization and the Southeast Asia tern of having three-nation commissions cle 1 that the member states shall "take ef- Treaty Organization. fective collective measures for the prevention supervise the Indochina accords. Though President Johnsep said at a ,news confer- Washington is still trying to get action from and removal of threats to the peace and for ence in: WaSlilngton yesterday: suppression of acts of aggression. * ? ?" "I think &good many countries are giving the commissions of Canadian, Indian, and And it insists that this be done with the Polish officials, it virtually wrote off the serious 6onsicieration ,to-_:inattix4- cOntribu- minimum 9f force necessary. three-nation format because decisions under lions in that area to keep communism from THE HARD REALITIES it could be reached only by unanimous vote. eriVelopIng that part of the world. And we Officials pointed out that recourse to the This is precisely what the United States ' welcome that help, and We evect to re- United Nations, at least at this stage, cer- has been doing in southeast Asia. It has ceive it." tainly did not imply reliance upon the world intervened to halt aggression, not to expand Premier Khaxih cominpnt6d i' organization. That is why the statement by it, to help the South Vietnamese, not to "We are inyolved in a war with many Prob- the U.S. representative at the United Na- replace them. It has been trying to take lems, military, ,social, and economic, and we tions Adlai E Stevenson, to the Security effective collective measures for the suppres- 'would welcome any help we could have from ' E. ow,. ,, , , Council was coupled with a pledge that Mon. of acts of aggression, and its measures ' the free nati '' _____ 4-_, ,- - , . ? :. , the United States would continue to do would have been more effective if the allies , xr-D(DS Tans isrr Aio JumluATE what it felt it must do to support non- had made them more collective. But he said American aid---,which involves Communist regimes in southeast Asia. On purely selfish national grounds, there 16,00l men and money at the rate of $500 Separate demonstrations of force, it is felt, was a good case to be made against any million a year?was adequate at this stage must accompany diplomatic efforts to em- U.S, intervention in Vietnam. It was over and he, had no plans to ask Defense Secre- phasize that point. Today's announcement 7,000 miles from our shores. It was rough tary Robert S. McNamara for more when he of American reconnal6sance flights over the country to defend against guerrilla action. visits Saigon again next week- Plaines des Jarres in Laos was only the first It could not be sealed off from its arms source . . . _ The Prprnier described, the IX/Tem:ling via- of several direct warnings of U.S. action, without attacking China. And that was It?Mr. 1),IcNaniara's fifth, to Vietnam and officials said, not all, second in 2 months?as routine, One difficulty of bringing Asian problems . ?. . The Communist troops in North Vietnam - , , ? into the United Nations has been the feeling "We have no special problems to solve, had helped defeat a French army of 400,000 here that such action would only dramatize he Said. "We simply want to push our ef- and even now are regarded by many people in , f C absence o Communist China from the forts in the war against the Vietcong." the a South Vietnam not as aggressors but as tough world organization. Washington dealt with Premier Ithanh repeated today, the 10th soldiers who helped liberate the peninsula Peiping, among others, at the 1962 Geneva anniversary of the fall of ..1DientnenphtL, the from the white French colonialists. Nor was Conference on Laos, without facing the em- symbol of F-ran-oe'S loss of In,deebina, that he it ever clear that the people of South Vietnam barrassing membership question. opposed the defensive concept of warfare. were as determined to defend the principle , , . , . .. ., , . "That sort of philosophy is very bad and PAC/NG MOSCOW'S CHALLENGE of self-help as the United States was to ' defend the principle of collective security. Accordingly, the adventure was always du- bious militarily and is now hazardous in the extreme. The desertions from the South Vietnamese Army were admited by Secretary of State Rusk on Capitol Hill today to be much greater than most observers here had believed, and fear of assassination is helping paralyze the war effort of the South Vietna- mese Government, Gen. Nguyen Khanh, the South Vietna- mese Premier, lives in such fear for his life , [From the New York Times, May 22, 1961] THE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE IN VIETNAM (By James Reston) would eventually lead to defeat," he said. Another difficulty has been the fear that _ ,an appeal to the United Nations would be w?s?Am"..0,e?-',""`E4 , interpreted in South Vietnam and in United Elsewhere, U.S. officials,tekekia somber view States political discussions as defeatist. But of two aspects of the war--the_"plear and because the current debate was initiated hold" program tnat impressed Mr. McNamara by the Soviet Union and at a time when on his visit in March and,?compaimist?opera- Washington was vowing resistance, officials tions agoes the -, Carabesh5n-Vietnamese seized the opportunity offered by Moscow's frontier, , challenge. 'A high'American source said the pacifica- Thus far, the U.S. offer of support for tion program, under which troops Move out United Nations actions extends only to the from a secure base to clear and then hold an problem of securing Cambodia's frontier Approved For ftelease 2005/02/10: CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 11362 0111k Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP661:4:0) 403R000200140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 that he sleeps one place one night and an- other the next. The Communist attacks have increased and their terroristic tactics have spread right into Saigon. Nevertheless, none of this removes the need for defending the principle of collective ac- tion. That need is just as great now as it was when the U.N. Charter was written, or when the fighting broke out in !Corea or the Congo. And even the French. who want to neutralize Vietnam but cannot tell us how it Is to be done, concede that only by con- tinued collective a ction in Vietnam?by which they mean American action?will the whole of southeast Asia be saved from con- quest by the Communists. THE NEUTRAL= alarm Meanwhile, in the midst of all the present recriminations about the present mesa in Vietnam and Laos, it may be useful to de- fine what the immediate danger is. It is not that South Vietnam is about to be overrun by the Communists. It is not that the United States is preparing to attack North Vietnam or even order its; own troops into the South Vietnamese units, It is that the South Vietnamese Government will be overthrown by a neutralist coup and that the United States will then be invited to leave. In this fragile situation, even casual talk of Ideal solutions or neutralization can be dangerous. There are no ideal solutions and even to reach the point of an honorable settlement means suppression of the Com- munist aggression. It means, above all, keep- ing in mind the collective security principle of the U.N? and urging other member na- tions to do the same. [From the New York Times, May 22, 19841 THE INDOCHINA PROBLEM In his speech at the 'United Nations yester- day, dramatized by his sudden recall from Europe, Adis! E. Stevenson emphasized American support for a U.N. role in helping end the friction on the ill-marked frontier between South Vietnam and Cambodia. He effectively refuted the baseless charges about American "aggression" made by Soviet Am- bassador Fedorenko earlier this week when the latter relapsed into language reminiscent of the worst days of the cold war. And Am- bassador Stevenson made clear that the United States will abandon neither the peo- ple of South Vietnam nor our military effort there. The basic problem of American policy in what was once French Indochina also emerged clearly from the Stevenson speech. The United States would like to have a re- turn to the political solutions armed upon In the two Geneva conferences in 1964 and 1962. How is that to be accomplished, especially now when the Communist forces in South Vietnam and Laos alike believe they have the upper hand militarily? As we suggested on this page yesterday, the United States may have to intensify its military support of the South Vietnamese before a peaceful settlement can be envisaged. But it would be futile to pursue the will-o'- the-wisp of a total victory in southeast Asia, short of embarking on an all-out war that under present circumstances the people of the United States would neither want nor accept. And if we cannot win a clear-cut military victory in this area, the power of the United States is such that the Commu- nists must realize that they cannot either and that they, aa well as we, will ultimately have to accept a political solution arrived at through negotiation. President de Gentle is presumably aiming for such a political solution in calling for an International conference on Laos, but events have already shown that the individual parts of Indochina cannot be considered in isola- tion. If there is to be serious negotiation. it must consider the total situation in all four states: the two Vietnams. lene and Cambodia. The objective must be restora- tion of peace on the basis of the Geneva ac- cords of 1954. The purpose of any intensified American military effort in Indochina?should that be necessary?must be to make clear to Hanoi, Peiping, and Moscow that they are running unacceptable risks if they persist in their present policy. But at the same time we have the obligation?and are under the necessity?of holding forward the possibility of a political negotiation that could bring lasting peace ea the area and make it possible eventually to get our troops out of this part of southeast Asia. (From the New York Times, May 22, 19641 TWIT Or Srresersow's SPEECH AT U.N. AND Excise-re PROM Petooaraexo's RZPLY ADDRESS BY MR. STEVENSON The facts about the incidents at issue are relatively simple and clear. The Government of the Republic of Viet- nam did in tact mistakenly cross the Ill- marked frontier between their country and Cambodia in pursuit of armed terrorists on May 7 and May 8 and on earlier occasions. That has been repeated and acknowledged here again today by the representative of Vietnam. The Government of Vietnam has expressed Its regrets of the tragic consequences. It has endeavored to initiate bilateral dis- cussions with the Cambodian Government In order to remove the cause of these in- cidents. But these efforts have not yet produced any useful results. These incidents. Mr. President can only be assessed intelligently in the light of the surrounding facts: namely, the armed con- spiracy which seeks to destroy the Govern- ment of Vietnam and the very society of Vietnam itself. Mr. President, members of the Council, it is the people of the Republic of Vietnam who are the major victims of armed aggres- sion. They suffer from terror It is they who are fighting for their independence against violence directed from outside their borders. It is they who suffer day and night from the terror of the so- called Vietcong. The prime targets of the Vietcong for kid- naping, for torture and for murder have been local officials, schoolteachers, medical workers, priests, agricultural specialists, and any others whose position, profession, or other talent qualified them for service to the people of Vietnam. plus of course, the relatives and children of citizens loyal to their Government. The chosen military objectives of the Viet- cong for gunfire, or arson or pillage, have been hospitals, schoolhouses, agricultural stations, and various improvement projects by which the Government of Vietnam for many years has been raising the living stand- ards of the people. The Government and the people of Viet- nam have been struggling for survival? struggling for years?in a war which has been as wicked, as wanton and as dirty as any waged against an innocent and peaceful people in the whole cruel history of warfare. It seems to me that there is something both grotesque and ironic in the fact that the victims of this incessant terror are the accused before this Council and are defend- ing themselves in daylight, while terrorists perform their dark and dirty work by night throughout their land. I cannot ignore the fact that at the meet- ing of this Council 2 days ago Ambassador Pedorenko. the distinguished representative of the Soviet Union, digressed at great length from the subject before the Council to ac- cuse the U.S. Government of organizing di- rect military action against the people of the Indochinese peninsula. FOr years?too many years?we have heard these bold and unsupported accusations in the halls of the United Nations. Malicious tales decried I had hoped that such malicious fairytales would be heard no more. But since another fanciful accusation against my country has been made by the Soviet representative, / am sure that the members of the Council will permit me to set him straight on my Government's policy with respect to south- east Asia. First, the United States has no?and I re- peat, no?national military objective any- where in southeast Asia. U.S. policy for southeast Asia Is very sim- ple: It is the restoration of peace so that the peoples of that area can go about their own Independent business in whatever associa- tions they may freely choose for themselves without interference from the outside. I trust my words have been clear enough on this point. Second, the U.S. Government Is currently Involved in the affairs of the Republic of Vietnam for one reason and one reason only? because the Republic of Vietnam requested the help of the United States and of other governments to defend itself against armed attack fomented, equipped, and directed from the outside. Earlier U.S. role recalled This is not the first time that the U.S. Government has come to the aid of peoples prepared to fight for their freedom and their Independence against armed aggression sponsored from outside their borders. Nor will it be the last time, unless aggressors learn once and for all that armed aggression does not pay. that It no longer works, that it can no longer be tolerated in the nuclear age. The record of the past two decades makes It clear that a nation with the will for self- preservation can outlast and defeat overt or clandestine aggression even when that in- ternal aggression is heavily supported from the outside and even after significant early successes by the aggressors. I will remind the members of the Council that in 1947 after the aggressors had gained control of most of the country many people felt that the cause of independent Greece was hopelessly lost. But as long as the peo- ple of Greece were prepared to fight for the life of their own country, the United States was not prepared to stand by while Greece WOE overrun. This principle, Mr. Chairman, does not change with the geographical setting. Ag- gression is aggression. Organized violence Is organised violence. Only the scale and the scenery change. The point is the same in Vietnam today as it was in Greece in J947 and in Korea in 1950. The Indochinese Communist Party, the parent of the present Communist Party in North Vietnam. made it abundantly clear as early as 1951 that the aim of the Viet- namese Communist leadership is to take con- trol of all of Indochina. This goal has not changed. It is still clearly the objective of the Vietnamese Communist leadership in Hanoi. Hanoi seeks to R0001/1- plish this purpose in South Vietnam through subversive guerrilla warfare directed, con- trolled and supplied by North Vietnam. The Communist leadership in Hanoi has sought to pretend that the insurgency in South Vietnam is a civil war. But Hanoi's hand shows very clearly. Public statements by the Communist Party in North Vietnam and its leaders have repeatedly demonstrated Hanoi's direction of the struggle in South Vietnam. Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 - - ;St Sepretcfry quoted Of the peaty, "Stated on September 5-, 1969, and / At present our _party is facing a _ipogiOilt..0i10-1:taSk=%,sfriir:a to complete the -.teVoltittoritlinififeare tfie-hanirtify.w :lie also id this ? "tire'UEirth-16--the-oi5iiiniiin, revolu- tionary base of the vihOle country.Three fiithitlilster the Party Congress j?igaiiet:'-iii-tejiteriinei "Intl,- the so-called ,National tront for the /Aeration. of South Vietnam was Re, uppuiuuant lIned at Mat' International C?htio1 CoinmisslOh rn Vietnam,' esttblIsied by--the-deireia aCeiiias Of 1:04, Stated-in a apeelal report- which it issued-,in-'iina"-:0:0'g,. that there is sufficient evidence ?ow that lorh Vietnam has - Vioittesl Vaiihnie" article* :Of the : _OeheVa borda,bY-MIntManalon of armed personnel, aria; thitis,ind 'Other- tuplieC from North ViettarriTintpOouthrefnarn-Witntlie object of auppcirting, &genii-Mg, nct c?y- ingout hdatilelteffVitregagairiat the Govern- nig andlrmed-ferces of South Vietnam. , , ? up plies maim from north- - InfiltrRt:ionbf nUtacypei?Sorinel and sup- plies from forth Vietnam to SouthVietnam - has, been parriSit ?-4,' stet a:dil--hiVer the past 'several years. The fetal number of Military - cadre sett i,nto: pau_th Vietnam via infiltra- tiOn routes runs into the thOusands. Such ittlitiitiOn,ce'W-elt-dnenrha,hied eri,:the basis of 'n_intei.'0;4-ctk66tedei-aiid-"_PVISOP-rs Wien by the'erined YOrhes-nf Viet-nett'. ? introthihtilon. of COittaurifst weapons into Aentla Vietninibta'alsh(grOVin_iteadiry. An increasing amount of weapons and'Arrininiii- *don captured from the Vieteorig has been ? proven - to-be " or Chinese 'Communist Mann- , fsettirer or: origin. Ppr exaniple: In December :1008, a, -large C.ctPliP DJ Vietcong equipment captured in one of t3e_Nle4:brig Delta provinces in South Viet- Sri inel,usleelMeoilleks_v4c,yROs,o latinch- -erC. Carbines, and ,errittni#,Ibn of Chinese - ? 7.4e Pnited- 8tatee caniipt"feiia:T,,i, While tneest'Asia' is overrun by armed aggres- - Sere._ i?,..04g, as the peopfes of that area are ? determined,tnpreserve their own inderiend- ?-? eneh alidsk fox.our ?help_ in,pseservinz, it we ? Will .eistexi4, Of _course, Is the mean-. ing of PreSidea req:4'64'a few days m for additional hinds for tiore'ehiinonlic as Well as Military assistance for,IVietraam. _on-tin:ued ,i4pOrt itady;Sd 4/14 It 9tY6fie has the illusion 'ldr jithat ini--GOVernirient Will abandon die- people of Vietnam, or that Wealialf Weary Of the 5w-40# of SUPPert-that we are tendering the,sepeope, it will beonly :0-e-tb-igrinianee of the ..,,s4,-ength and tb-el, eoriVietinn Torr the .4neribari people. , 4 Arklw.11* 'fiopigot *1,0, has' beet. the Victi.M. of 'SimoSt inhe ylplpn.qe for more than, kste64.__.ii.4 this faht,- it has'been ingeated that ',We e shOtild gie up helping the peopt& Of Viet- tarn to dbfeM;Ltheni:,selyesA94 a m04 -inv. Political solution. - ? 7 Ant' a politicaT solution is lust what we have ft-Treacly had and it is in defense?in iropphert;-:-Ztthit political ablution that-Viet- , ? #41,Vialttp.i4 nag. laeyer hesoc gninst po iltical, solutigits.,; we have faithfully stcppotedthepd1iticai solutions that 'ere aio#661_6!_ 461.1.74,9-:q104 in 1954 an_agaip in ' '?=7: ,r4e, thrat to ,peace in the area stemsfrom - The4p1 fat likewise. Th, _get,eys, accor.cisut, 4.44, And...062 were precisely political agreements to stop the _fighting, to restore the peace, to secure the independence of Vietnam and Laos and Cam- , 2005/02/10 :.CIA:?RD006B00.40.3R00)160140,015-7 'SSIONAIAtC - bodia; to 'guarantee the 'integrity of their frontlers and to permit these much-abused people to go about their own business in their own way. United States not a signatory The United States, though not a signatory to the 1954 accord has sought to honor these agreements in the hope that they would permit these people to live in peace and in- dependence from outside interference from any quarter and for all time. To this day, there is only one major trou- ble with the political agreements reached at Geneva with respect to Vietnam. Cambodia and Laos in 1954 and again with respect to Laos in 1962. It is this: The ink was hardly dry on the Geneva ac- cord in 1954 before North Vietnam began to violate them systematically, with comradely assistance from the regime in Peiping. Nearly a million people, as you will recall, living in North Vietnam in 1954 exercised the rights given to them under the Geneva agreement to move south to the Republic of Vietnam. _ Even while this was going on, units of the Vietminh were hiding their arms and settling down within the frontiers of the republic to form the nucleus of today's so- called Vietcong to await the signal from out- side in order to rise and strike. In the meanwhile, they have been trained and supplied in considerable measure from North Vietnam in violation of the Geneva agreement?the political settlement. They have been reinforced by guerrilla forces moved in to the Republic of Vietnam through Laos in violation of the Geneva agreement?the political settlement. This is the reason?and the only reason? 'Why there is "fighting in Vietnam today. There is fighting in Vietnam today only be- cause the political settlement for Vietnam reached at Geneva in 1954 has been delib- erately and flagrantly and systematically violated. AR I say, Mr. President, this is the reason why my Government and, to a lesser ex-tent, other governments, have come to the aid of the Government of the Republic of Vietnam as it fights for its life against armed aggres- sion, directed from outside its frontiers in contemptuous violation of bindipg agree- ments. If the Government of the Republic of Vietnam is fighting today, it is fighting to defend the Geneva agreement, which has ' proved undefendable by any other means. If arms are being used in Vietnam today, it is only because a political solution has been violated cynically for years. ,The same disregard for the political settle- - ment reached at Geneva has been demon- strated by the same parties in Laos. Viola- tion has been followed by a period of quiet ? and then another violation follows. Limited aggression has been followed by a period of calm and then another limited aggression. Throughout the period since July 1962, - when the Lao settlement was concluded, ? the Prime Minister of Laos, Prince Souvanna Phouma, has with great patience and forti- tude sought to maintain the neutrality and independence of his country. He has made every effort to bring about Pathet Lao co- operation in the Government of national union. Now, in the past few days, we have seen a massive, deliberate armed attack against the forces of the coalition Government of Prime Minister Souva,nna. Phouma, The attack was mounted by a member of inkt coalition Government with the military assistance of one of the signatories a the Geneva accord. These violations are obvi- ously aimed at increasing the amount of Lao - Outright attempt The military offensive of recent days must be seen as an outright attempt to destroy by violence what the whole structure of the Geneva accord was intended to preserve. -Hanoi has persistently refused to withdraw the Vietnamese Communist farces from Laos despite repeated demands by the Lao Prime Minister. Hanoi has also consistently continued the use of Laos as a corridor for infiltration of men and supplies from North Vietnam into South Vietnam. It is quite clear that the Communists re- gard the Geneva accords of 1962 as an in- strument which in no way restrains the Com- munists from pursuing their objectives of taking over Laos as well as South Vietnam. The recent attempt to overthrow the con- stitutional Government headed by Prime Minister Souvanna Phourna was in large part attributable to the failure of the machinery set up by the Geneva accords to function in response to urgent requests by the Gov- ernment of Laos. 'This machinery has been persistently sab- otaged by the ?Communist member of the International Control Commission, who has succeeded by misuse of the so-called veto power in paralyzing the machinery designed to protect the peace in that area and thereby undermining support for the Souvanna gov- ernment. Today, however, that government which was created under the Geneva agreements, remains in full exercise of its authority as the legitimate government of a neutralized Laos. The other Geneva signatories must live up to their solemn commitments and sup- port Prime Minister Souvanna in his efforts to preserve the independence and the neu- trality which the world thought had been won at Geneva. These solemn obligations, we submit, must Mit be betrayed. Mr. President; my Government takes a very grave view of -these events. Those who are responsible, have set foot on an exceed- ingly dangerous _path. As we look at _world affairs in recent years, we have reason _to_hope that this lesson has at last been learned by all but those fanatics who cling to the doctrine that they could further _their ambitions by armed force. . Chairman Khrushchev said it well, and clearly in his New Year's Day message to other heads of government around the world. In that letter he asked for?and I quote?. "recognition of the fact that territories of states must not even temporarily be the target of any- kind of invasion, attack, mili- tary occupation or other coercive measures directly or indirectly undertaken by other states for any political, economic, strategic boundary or other considerations whatso- ever." re is not a member of this Council, Mr. President, or a member of this organization which does not share a common interest in a final and total renunciation, except in self- defense, of the use of force as a means of pursuing national aims. The doctrine of militant violence has been rendered null and void by the technology of modern weapons and the vulnerability of a world in which the peace cannot be ruptured anywhere without endangering the peace everywhere. Way to restore order Finally, Mr. President, with respect to southeast Asia in general, let me say this: There is a very easy way to restore order in aoutheast Asia. There is a very simple, safe way to bring about the end of U.S. military territory under Communist control. ?aid to the Republic of Vietnam. - ? 44, " , - Approved For Release 2005/02/10? CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 ? 11364 Oak Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE Let all foreign troops withdraw from Laos. Let all states in that area make and abide by the simple decision to leave their neigh- bors alone. Stop the secret subversion of other people's independence. Stop the clandestine and illegal transit of national frontiers. Stop the export of revolution and the doctrine of violence. Stop the violations of political agreements reached at Geneva for the future of southeast Asia. The people of Laos want to be left alone. The people of Vietnam want to be left alone. The people of Cambodia want to be left alone. When their neighbors decide to leave them alone, as they must, there will be no lighting in southeast Asia and no need for American advisers to leave their homes to help these people resist aggression. Any time that that decision can be put In enforcible term-, my Government will be only too happy to put down the burden that we have been sharing with those deter- mined to preserve their independence. Until such assurances are forthcoming, we shall stand for the independence of free peoples in southeast Asia as we have elsewhere. And now, Mr.' President, if we can return to the more limited issue b!fore this Council today?the security of the frontier between Cambodia and the Republic of Vietnam. Cambodian stand upheld My Government?if there is any misun- derstanding about it, let me put it straight? is in complete sympathy with the concern of the Government of Cambodia for the sanctity of its borders and the security of its people. Indeed, we have been guided for nearly a decade in this respect by the words of the final declaration of the Geneva Conference of July 21, 1954, which says: "In their relations with Cambodia, with Laos and Vietnam, each member of the Ge- neva Conference undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the independence, the unity and the territorial integrity of the above-men- tioned states and to refrain from any inter- ference in their internal affairs." With respect to the allegations now made against my country, I shall do no more than reiterate what Ambassador Yost, the U.S. delegate, said to this Council on Tuesday morning: The United Estates has expressed regret officially for the trees results of the border incidents in which an American ad- viser was present. Our careful investiga- tions have failed to produce evidence that any Americans were present in the crossing of the Cambodian frontier on May 7 and May 8 and there is, of course, no question whatever of either aggression or aggressive Intent against Cambodia on the part of my country. Let me emphasize that my Government has the greatest regard for Cambodia and its people and its chief of state?Prince Siha- nouk, whom I have the privilege of know- ing. We believe he has done a great deal for his people and for the independence of his country. We have demonstrated our regard for his effort on behalf of his people in very practical ways over the past decade. We have no doubt that he wants to assure conditions in which his people can live in peace and security. My Government associates itself explicitly with this aim. If the people of Cambodia wish to live in peace and security and in- dependence and free from alinement if they so choose, then we want for them precisely what they want for themselves. We have no quarrel whatsoever with the desire of Cambodia to go its own way in peace and security. Cambodia not left alone The difficulty, Mr. President, has been that Cambodia has not been in a position to carry out with its own unaided strength its own desire to live in peace and tranquillity. Others in the area have not been prepared to leave the people of Cambodia free to pur- sue their own ends independently and peacefully. The recent difficulties along the frontier which we have been discussing here in the Council are qnly superficially and acciden- tally related to the Republic of Vietnam. They are deeply and directly related to the fact that the leaders and armed forces of North Vietnam. supported by Communist China, have abused the right of Cambodia to live in peace by using Cambodian terri- tory as a passageway, a source of supply, and a sanctuary from counterattack by the forces of South Vietnam, which is also trying to maintain its right to live in peace and go its way. Obviously Cambodia cannot be secure. Here territorial integrity cannot be assured. Here independence cannot be certain as long as outsiders direct massive violence within the frontiers of her neighboring states. This is the real reason for troubles on the Cambodian border and this is the real reason that we are here today. Now it is suggested that the way to restore security on the Cambodian-Viet- namese border is to reconvene the Geneva Conference which 10 years ago reached the solemn agreement which I have read to you. While I hesitate and dislike to differ with my distinguished friend from Cambodia. I submit, Mr. President, that we can surely do better than that?that there is no need for another such conference. A Geneva Con- ference on Cambodia could not be expected to produce an agreement any more effective than the agreements we already have. Complaint discussed This Council is seized with a specific issue. The Cambodians have brought a specific complaint to this table. Let us then deal with it. There is no need to look elsewhere. We can make here and now a constructive deci- sion to help meet the problem that has been laid before us by the Government of Cam- bodia to help keep order on her frontier with Vietnam and thus to help eliminate at least one of the sources of tension and violence Which afflict the area as a whole. Let me say, Mr. President. that my Govern- ment endorsee the statement made by the distinguished representative of Cambodia to the Council on Tuesday when he pointed out that states which are not members of the United Nations are not thereby relieved of responsibility for conducting their affairs in line with the principles of the charter of this organization. We could not agree more fully that the regimes of Peiping and Hanoi, which are not members of this organization, are employing or supporting the use of force against their neighbor. This is why the borders of Cambodia have seen violence. And this is why we are here today and that is why the United States has a duty to do what It can to maintain order? the United Nations. I beg your pardon?has the duty to do what it can to maintain order along the frontier between Cambodia and Vietnam to help uphold the principles of the charter in southeast Asia. As for the exact action which this Council might take. Mr. President. my Government is prepared to consider several possibilities. We are prepared to discuss any practical and constructive steps to meet the problem before us. One cannot blame the Vietnamese for concluding that the International Con- trol Commission cannot do an effective job of maintaining frontier security. Unanimous vote required The composition?the troika composition? of the International Control Commission which under the Geneva agreements on Viet- nam and Cambodia requires that decisions dealing with violations which might lead to May 22 a resumption of hostilities can be taken only by unanimous agreement has contributed to the frustration of the ICC. The fact that the situation in South Viet- nam has reached the crisis stage is itself dramatic testimony of the frustrations to which the International Control Commission has been reduced. With the exception of the special report on June 2, 1262, to which I referred, con- demning Communist violation of the Geneva accords, the Commission has taken no action with respect to the Communist campaign of aggression and guerrilla warfare against South Vietnam. The representative of Cambodia has sug- gested that a commission of inquiry in- vestigate whether the Vietcong has used Cambodian territory. We have no fundamental objection to a committee of inquiry. But we do not believe It addresses itself to the basic problem that exists along the Vietnam-Cambodian border. More is needed in order to assure that prob- lems do not continue to arise. Several practical steps for restoring stabil- ity to the frontier have been suggested, and I shall make brief and preliminary general remarks about them. I wish to reiterate what Ambassador Yost said the other day?that we have never re- jected any proposal for inspection of Cam- bodian territory. Now one suggestion is that the Council request the two parties directly concerned to establish a substantial military force on a bilateral basis to observe and patrol the frontier and to report to the Secretary Gen- eral. U.N. observers suggested Another suggestion Is that such a bilateral force be augmented by the addition of Unit- ed Nations observers and possibly be placed under United Nations command in order to provide an impartial third-party element representative of the world community. We also could see much merit in this idea. Now, if I am correctly informed, a third sug- gestion is to make it an all-United Nations force. This might also be effective. It would involve somewhat larger United Nations ex- penditures than the other alternatives, but if this method should prove desirable to the members of the Council the United States will be prepared to contribute. We would suggest, Mr. President, that whether one of these or some other practical solution is agreed, that it would be useful to ask the Secretary General of the United Nations to offer assistance to Cambodia and to the Republic of Vietnam in clearly mark- ing the frontiers between the two countries. One of the difficulties is that there are places where one does not know whether he stands on one side of the frontier or the other. Certainly it would help to reduce the poesibility of further incidents if this un- certainty could be removed. And now in conclusion, Mr. President, with my apologies for detaining the members so long, let me repeat that I am prepared to discuss the policy and the performance of my Government throughout southeast Asia, but that the issue before us is the security of Cambodia and the Cambodian-Vietnam border. I have expressed my Government's views on that subject. I hope other members of the Council also will express their views on that subject, and that the Council, which le the primary world agency for peace and se- curity, can quickly take effective steps tc remedy a situation which could threater peace and security. Thank you, Mr. President, REPLY BY MR. rEDORENHO Prom that noisy and rather sensationa show of American advertising technique! which was used today in the statement mad. by our U.S. colleague, one might hay. Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 ApprOved For Reldtlira6 2005/02/10 : G1A-RDP66B00403R001911060140015-7 -1964 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? ATE 11365 ? Alionght ths...t he Was Making poine really ha- portanf substantive stateinent. >Ev?o,tt,opthnittiO observer would heeded the votee of reasoI, finally was de- -41-thdratri aS g , ? partieu- :troops Its ?tatcenitiguous to Camboctia ? Might iiipeCte' ? expected thatthe 1111-ittel4el.?6:States-W-Onlearet4t11#6.'deelaied Ls ? lritentiOn to filial - t 4 .71eements Of 054 which, as yeu4FL,Tab been Stub- bornly violated by it a d_whOSe` viofatlon, in ? the case of Oaniliodia;, has 1..0.:0gi*nipe41.1,g .151 _ Of course ? ft AS _necessary to bear in mind fact that, the , rOresentatii4 of the _n1tg? $tatellas becu _Oyer, .ent, as it were, , by 'events when he was traveling overgeas. 'TIP Is'Oh_viously still under the impression of his reeent Rome meetings and his negotia- tions and his talks. 7#4 th?T Woe where, as we ?,1p.0,76, it is normal to _make Rpeeahea regularly Under the old fa-tiered. .flag of ..anticommunism. ,Bilt let that bets ?no ;longer at secret meetings with his military allies; that he is now at a meet- ing of the SecuritY Council and that he should not herejneak from the platform of protagonistsr theprotagonistsof militarism, accusing oth- ers ,or .41.1 ginspoSaible. _ -the, re-presentative of the United States was in Acf;.;i31414 a definitrole':V):44y; jae was speaking from, PIO as the an.7. And would rnlld infi_a_SaadOr _ StevensOn that on the agenda of the Security 'OQu1cil for today we have, the question of the 'azgresSien carried out by the United States act spRth,y400,4pApinq,Carnbodia,_ and that this is *bat we sholjlarlie7talking about ?; tr.S. stan4 elt4lenged . ??. ?_ ???t ut ineaawhile the representative of the . United States has attempted to represent matters fu such a way as to seem to be_speak- - lug in defense of the peoples Of southeast Asia, who, according to have become? .ctjs . Of .,.06jAroinit.d agsTessiOn, and he epairnieS to inal,re ,statements _that c,or, ? resPOnd- not at all to the actual state of _ _ , affairs,? ? is indeed strange What Can sometimes be done, with logic. ? From Mr. Stevenson's very -fignrative speech, it would seem that - SOIcite0 ? to Sonth:Vietnaria.,for ,tho,pmpose of waging R Very:erne-1 and -dirty Way, to put to the sword arid 4.Q..f49,4ainc_th?dpeople of Vietnam who etre struggling for the liberation a,nd mdc- pendenee country, the United States, ad,COrding to their way of thinking, is in some wa:Ly Contributing to an, international detente by these actions. . jt turns out thatby organizing aggression st.gainit Cali:dab-Oa, the Anierican military are , _ . _ In some_ _way making a contribution to the Cause b!peace. fie:,okarfles turnab.'oui This attempt to accuse Others In a case of ?tile TiO:t calling the kettle_biacjr, and in their .?Setifeh:fcir a scapegoat they have been led to wage a War thousands of milek.from_their 'own shores obilonsly financed out of their - ? 'The :representatives_ of the _United States try to present the glair Jig?If, American troops, giins; and -jmoney were being used -simply in order to guarantee for the popula- tion of South ,Vjetgain therig_ht-to live un- ? der the social system, thex prefer, _ is- is-affirmation s which, ? fOoLvq. M ,APPS-9,YoZIPPILLibee, it corn- pletelY, distorts the _real stat.P.,-P-Latfairs. jn outhVielpit # ha in s - stalled, and is mairitainiag in power by all the means at its disposal, including military means, a puppet regime- which is contrary American lads to die in South Vietnam, to the wishes of the people. where war has not been declared. The extent to which that regime has been "Finally, I am much concerned about the fOisted on South Vietnam and is not enjoy- fact that, as I see it, we are subverting and ing any popularity in the country may be undermining the United Nations. I am very seen In the fact that over the last much afraid that we are weakening the United Nations." These opinions fill us with considerable concern and anxiety. We share the concern and alarm expressed by Senator MORSE. And are we not justified in expecting from a member state of the United Nations?a per- manent member of the Security Council? some objectivity in assessing the situation which has become the subject of discussion in the Security Council? Are we not entitled to expect an acknowl- edgment of the very grave crimes which have been committed against an independ- ent state, Cambodia, a member state of the United Nations? Who was set up because of a foreign occupa- I feel that it is hardly necessary to have tion., whereafter, for the same reason and an interpretation of my remarks. Do you at the behest of the same people, one usurper not think, Mr. President, that it would be was replaced hy another henchmen? wen, to refrain from any interpretation in 6 months the United States has been obliged to replace three governments there. Question of rules raised When, at the beginning of the discussion Of this item, the Soviet delegation spoke in opposition to the participation of those who pretend to represent South Vietnam, we had in mind particularly the mandate of those rulers. What mandate do the South Vietnam riders have? Who gave it to them? From whom did they receive the right to lord it in that region? From the dead or from the living? From Ngo Dinh Diem, the puppet But, as they say, a monkey with a crown view of the exteme clarity of my position? on its head still remains a monkey. The puppets are being changed and are replacing [From the New York Times, May 22, 1964] each other?Ngo Dinh Diem, Syngman Rhee UNITED STATES PUTS A JET WATCH OVER LAOS? and their like. This is part of the policy. AIR AID REQUESTED--PLANES SCOUTING REDS The Eastern peoples are famous for their BECAUSE TRUCE UNIT CANNOT FUNCTION wisdom, as expressed in the saying that a snake does not become straight if it is put (By Hedrick Smith) through a bamboo tube. WASHINGTON, May 21.?The Government In order to maintain its puppets in power disclosed today that unarmed U.S. jetplanes and to preserve its beachhead for aggression piloted by Americans had been flying recon.. against the peace-loving peoples in south- natssance missions over the Plaine des Jarres, east Asia, the United States is waging an in central Laos, to gather information on undeclared war against the people of South Communist forces. - Vietnam. A State Department spokesman said the missions had been undertaken at the request of the Government of Laos because of "the current inability of the International Con- trol Commission to obtain adequate informa- tion" on recent attacks on neutralist and rightwing forces in Laos. The commission, made up of representa- tives of India, Canada, and Poland, is as- signed to supervise the numerous truces in the fighting between pro-Communist and anti-Communist forces in Laos. Coupled with the disclosure of the recon- naissance flights was a report by qualified sources that the United States had provided the bombs being used by the Laotian Air Force for raids against the pro-Communists' positions in the embattled Plaine des Jarres. These sources indihted that the bombs were supplied some time ago at the request of the Laotian Government under the July 1962, Geneva agreements between East and West. Under these accords Laos was to be unified and neutralized, with a government to consist of neutralist, rightist, and pro- Communist factions. The current raids were the first in which the bombs were used. FIRST OFFICIAL ADMISSION The announcement of the reconnaissance flights was the first official acknowledgment ha nothing left except in Thailand and since the signing of the Geneva accords that s There is a tremendous armed force there which is carrying out a punitive war against .the South Vietnamese population. Who, at this present time, would be bold enough to say that those who have taken over from the Foreign Legion, as it were, have now become advisers, friends of the people, and soon? I shall simply confine myself to a reference to the appeal of a very well-known compa- triot of Mr. Stevenson, Senator WAYNE MORSE, I refer to a statement which he made in the Senate on May '18 of this year on the question of the McNamara war in .South Vietnam. This appears in the CON- GRESSIONAL RECORD, pages 10853-10859. This is what Senator MORSE said: "We support the totalitarian, military, tyrannical puppet government in South Vietnam. If anybody believes that in South Vietnam people are free, they can hardly be more mistaken. "We have already been caught red handed when we carried out acts of aggression against Cambodia and Prince (Norodom) Sihanouk threw us out of there. This has put an end to the complex theory which was held by John Foster Dulles, Cambodia and Burma have turned away from us and, as we all know, the theory of John Foster Dulles South Vietnam." the United States was taking a military role In Laos. Morse letter quoted In conclusion, I cannot fail to refer to the letter of Senator MORSE to Mr. Stevenson on May 14 of this year. I hope that the mem- bers of the Council are familiar with this letter but, to refresh their memories, I should like to give a brief quotation from it: "As you know, I consider that the uni- lateral military action which the United States is carrying out in South Vietnam is not in accordance with international law and The disclosure came in the wake of reports from Tokyo quoting the Peiping radio to the effect that pro-Communist Pathet Lao troops had fired on American planes over Laos. Of- ficials here could not confirm that any planes had been fired upon. The State Department's acknowledgement of the flights was viewed by observers here as having as much importance as the flights themselves or even more. It was interpreted as part of a carefully Is. by, no _means justified under it, as well developed plan by the Johnson administra- ai 'being irreconcilable with our obligations tion to demonstrate that it was prepared to under the Charter of the United Nations, go beyond traditio:nal diplomatic gestures of "I realize the delicate position you are in. Showing its concern over military attacks ? Nevertheless, I consider that the American against the neutralist forces in Laos. people have a right to .know whether you The announcement was also viewed as a are in accord with the policy of sending parallel move to a speech in the United Na- Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 , Approved For Release 2005/02i10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 11366 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ?SENATE tions Security Council today by Adlai E. Stevenson, the U.S. delegate, In which he denounced aggression in Laos and South Vietnam. ORIGIN NOT DISCLOSED Officials did not disclose where the recon- naissance flights originated but they left the impression that the planes flew from and landed outside Laos, presumably neighbor- ing Thailand. The type of planes being used was also not disclosed. Officials turned aside suggestions that the reconnaissance flights might be a violation of the 1962 Geneva accords on Laos by no- ting that the accords make no mention of reconnaissance flights. Washington also argued that continued violations of the accords by the Pathet Lao and North Vietnamese forces and their re- fusal to permit the International Control Commission to inspect their areas made the flights necessary to preserve the accords. Officials repeatedly emphasized that the United States considered that the 1082 agree- ments, which are the basis for Premier Sou- venue Phouma's Government, were still in force and that the reconnaissance flights Would certainly not pause them to be scrapped. The agreements, signed by the United States and 13 other powers, including North Vietnam and Communist China, forbid "the introduction of foreign regular and irregular troops, foreign paramilitary formations and foreign military personnel into Laos." Officials here maintained that since the flights presumably started and ended out- side Laotian territory and airspace, the air- craft and personnel were not being "intro- duced" into Laos. Another provision of the agreements per- mits the introduction of "quantities of con- ventional armaments as the Royal Govern- ment of Laos may consider necessary for the national defense of Laos." The officials indicated that Premier Sou- vanna Phouma, who has accused the Pathet Lao and North Vietnamese forces of violating the accords during the current fighting, had orally requested U.S. support under this pro- vision. The flights began a few days ago and are continuing, the officials said. They were au- thorized by high administration officials with President Johnson's approval. To Ass= IN EVERT WAY In a prepared sta%ement on the recon- naissance flights, the State Department said: ? "We are working with the Royal Lao Gov- ernment in response to its request to assist in every way possible in supplementing its information on the intention and disposi- tions of attacking forces. "For this purpose, certain U.S. recon- naissance flights have been authorized In view of the current inability of the Inter- national Control Commission to obtain ade- quate information. Information obtained will be turned over as rapidly as possible to the ICC." Officials said the planes were surveying troops, supply depots, and positions for pho- tographs that could conceivably be used to document forther charges of aggression against the North Vietnamese and the Pathet Lao forces before the United Nations. It was Indicated that copies of the photographs would be flown back to Washington as well as being turned over to truce commission representatives in Vientiane. Officials maintained that the flights were the first American jet reconnaissance mis- sions over the Plaine des Janes in central Laos in the last 2 years. There have been reports that the United States was using high-flying 17-2 jets on reconnaissance missions over southeast Asia. There has also been speculation that recon- naissance planes 'based in Thailand or South Vietnam have periodically flown photograph- ing missions over the Ho Chi Minh Trail in eastern Laos to watch for North Vietnamese troop movements toward South Vietnam On the diplomatic side of the Laos issue, qualified sources said Secretary of State Dean Rusk had strenuously objected to the French Ambassador, Herv6 Aiphand. over a French proposal yesterday for a new international conference on Laos. Officials here were both shocked and irri- tated that Paris had put forth the proposal without having consulted its allies. In response, the United States and Britain have decided to turn aside the French sug- gestion by throwing their support to a sepa- rate proposal for consultations in Vientiane among the 14 nations that signed the 1982 agreements Robert S. McCloskey. State Department spokesman, reiterated that the United States was "agreeable to consultations in Vientiane, as suggested by the Prime Minister." He refrained from commenting airectly on the French proposal. Washington is fearful that any formal international conference would provide Com- munist China and North Vietnam with a forum for propaganda demands calling for neutralization of all the Indochinese Penin- sula. Officials here also believe that it would be a mistake to have Prince Souvanna Phouma leave Laos at a time when his forces are beleaguered and the Communists have been trying to undermine his position. Washington also contends that to hold an international conference now would be to "reward the aggressor," as one official put it, referring to the military attacks on neutral- ists and rightwing forces. Nonetheless the French proposal drew sup- port from Senator Mrsts Mawarnme, the ma- jority leader, who has often been at odds with the administration on southeast Asia policy. [From the New York Times, May 22, 19041 Barniat GOAL: CONSULTATIONS (By Sydney Gruson) LONDON, May al.?Britain concentrated her diplomatic efforts today on trying to bring about "consultations" on Laos among the countries that worked out a solution for the Asian kingdom's political problem; in Ge- neva in 1962. Such consultations, which were requested Tuesday by Prince Souvanna Phouma, the neutralist Premier of Laos, would have the effect of shelving France's proposal last night for a more formal 14-nation conference. Prince Souvanna Phouma suggested that representatives of the 14 countries "consult" in Vientiane, the Laotian administrative cap- ital, where all except Burma have diplomatic missions. The 14 are Britain, the Soviet Union, the United States, Prance, Communist China, In- dia, Canada, Poland, Burma, Thailand, Cam- bodia, North Vietnam, South Vietnam, and Laos. The French proposal, made to Britain and the Soviet Union as cochairmen of the 1982 conference, was brief. It said a new session was necessary to solve the problems of Laos, which have been complicated by the pro- Communist Pathet Lao forces recent Military victories and the merger of the kingdom's rightwing and neutralist factions. The United States had asked France and Britain, among other countries with diplo- matic representation in Peiping, to seek Com- munist China's help to end the lighting in Laos. Britain acted promptly to do so, though without results so far, but the French refused, according to reliable sources here. The French stand was reliably reported to May 22 be that it would be useless to seek China's assistance. PROPOSALS CALLED SIMILAR The British Foreign Office took pains to explain that it was not "knocking down" the French proposal in issuing a statement today expressing support for Prince Souvanna Phouma's "efforts to promote consultations in Vientiane." Asked if the statement meant that Britain ruled out the idea of convening a formal con- ference. Michael Hadow, Foreign Office spokesman, said "No." "We are considering that and consulting about it." he added. He said the French pro- posal and the proposal by the Laotian Premier were "on very similar lines." British officials conceded that the situation in Laos might come to the point where a con- ference was Inevitable. But it was clear to observers that Washington and London would do everything possible to keep any consultations or conference at the lowest possible diplomatic level. British officials indicated that renewed representations would be made' soon to the Soviet Union and Communist China. For the moment, there was little hope that the Chinese would be amenable immediately to restoring the situation in Laos. At best, It Is felt here, a halt might be called in the Pathet Lao offensive. At worst, it is feared, the Chinese will encourage the Pathet Lao forces to sweep to the Mekong River and provoke a serious military con- frontation with the United States, which is committed to assist in the defense of Thai- land, which borders on the Mekong. 'From the New YorTr?Times, May 22, 1964] PARIS WIDENING PROPOSAL (By Drew Middleton) PARIS, May 21.?President de Gaulle's gov- ernment declared anew today that the guar- anteed neutrality it seeks for Laos should be extended to neighboring nations. A statement to this effect by Foreign Min- ister Maurice Couve de Murville after a Cab- inet meeting apparently widened the latest French diplomatic initiative to include the southeast Asian states of North and South Vietnam and Cambodia. But France. like the other governments involved, insisted that the situation in Laos take priority. Cambodia's ruler, Prince Norodom Siha- nouk, has already asked for a conference to guarantee his country's neutrality. The French have supported his request. General de Gaulle, who presided over the Cabinet meeting, believes that North and South Vietnam should be united in inde- endence and their neutrality guaranteed. Because of the urgency of the military sit- uation in Laos, the French Government Is concentrating on assembling a conference to deal with that problem. Mr. Couve de Murville, in letters to Brit- ain and the Soviet Union, did not specify the level or site of the session he proposed. Qualified French sources said the Govern- ment did not believe that a conference at the ambassadorial level in Vientiane, as proposed by Prince Souvanna Phourna, would be high- powered enough. The French are apparently thinking of a conference attended by deputy foreign min- isters. Geneva now seems the most likely site, but the French will not insist on it. As reported by Information Minister Alain Peyrefitte, Mr. Couve de Murville told the Cabinet: "There is no other solution to the problem of Laos than neutralization guaranteed by the (interested) powers. A true and sincere solution of nutralization must extend to all of southeast Asia. It Is the sole guarantee of the peace and independence of the states." Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 .1964 , 4I5 kpiil 2, 1964. nop., 4;x45F5T U.S.I Se**, TV ashingtoi,t,_ pp. PE4R SENATOII CtiOni4iNe' :Vietnamese rise to numerous cOn- probleirie have give _ trovexsle lnjd?i country.- I know that, despite'your inanyalli7SLa t oilialaiave taken nkeeerinai! aetive intere_St=lp?.?the...Sd try and for this "reasoni eiri-Wilting to you to give o? m PoiritiOf vieW On the prob- ' leins Which face us. ,:444?X wrote to Lsamnr and Sec- retary Of state Dean husk last February, 25, ri-eithefi the iyetntralizatiOsanin finfn sUpPOrted by both' the de , Yalitblirc ;anade General de Gaulle, nor an:escatolatiton of the war" Are SOlUtiOria acceptablehe Viet- 11-6e pe6Ple Thril on truly Viable solution is to help , the Vietnamese people attain a position of political, economic, arid Military , strength which will make it possible for us .to carry on and win whet ,has often been QoYaTe64?4:Yeie7rtigt,_%e'*fattifie72'Abli,inCeans of SWeeping and-eoPial reforms" Includ- ing a 'cliange-froin militarkidictatorship, to represerifetiVe-nationaliet government. 114-The The policy of its oftl_1,,,pred_eces I , Johnson adininistration, sound. the commitment mitinent'Wor, ' ai basically d Vietnam until final vicfOry Over the Communists has beenachipVecl _is. a etanseWOthk of a_g;?-at nation ad tlk-4,40 f tire,BUt why has this policy?so good in itself, so just and so heavily suppOrted?been so com- pletely frustrated,dMin_g these past ip years? ? The ansWer iasinitily that American aid has been iniSalrepteq., ]rfie,WrOlig_ leaders and the wraps srouPS have received and abused American support while the Vietnamese peo- ple and their legitimate nationalist leader- ship havep,e.p.4virtuallyignored, 47414* siipport ter- Diern'aregline, itisti- fietranslAuPpeSstal fer ?541lOng_ as Diem had the -support Orthe- Vietnamese people and the'riatie-riallst:LleaSiershiii, became untenable' when he and tie faintly began to abuse their power, thereby 'divorcing themselves from popular support. After that point, neither 1116ssiYejAmeriPan _aid_ in _money, material, and Manpower, nor the frequent declarations of wholehearted _support ,from gertain?Amer- loan, ocjals eOula save Our Mandarin irpria catastrophe. ?%.01.014'Sd?11 f1aclear, refutation of all, policies involving the support of dic- tatorships Without regard to the will of the,. people: - In reVoiutionary ArSia, such tactics are eutAatett; they simply cannot work. Arnerica's.hastY rush to support the new mili- ? tary strong man Gen. Nguyen Khanh follow- ing his unpopular coup d'etat and the:sub- sequent -American campaigns`describing the general as a man who enjoys the admiration, respect, and complete support of the United -gtates indicate, that we,,areAn_for_ another ?4.9.-1.111,4'0t=k4C. 40a4rons t.randof_pragmatisin whim, prescribes any kind of government so 'long as it is not good government, any kind Of leaders So_ long as they are unpopular and dictatorial. ,* * The sameA11,1,?taises_ which to the catastrophe of ,Dienblenphu and later to the _bloody fall of Ngo Dinh Diem are starting all over again The ,Vietrianiese. 'people, one OF the mostost ,courageous and persevering in Asia, have knOWn it-ion:Sands_ of years of colonialism uri'clei the lViongolS, Chinese, and French. We are currently in the midst of s, guerrilla .- twin* Which has gone on almost uninterrupt edly for two decades. Through all this time " we have ? sifflered umier,overnments and by ourselves, but imposed . force from the 2:Weide._ When ,America entereci.the *040 of _onretruggies, we hoped? and , We tll lip0e?that with the friendship and _support of your great nation?leader and champion of the free world?we could = , - e2005/O2110 : CIA-RDP661800403R06400140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? spTATE 11,36.7 finally realize our centuries-old aspiration to be a free and independent people with a re- sponsible government devoted to the national interest and serving the popular will. We ',did not, foresee newdictatorsbips, new police- state methods, and new oppression. We could not have expected the same errors, the same insults, and the same disregard for Vietnam's legitimate interests and leadership that characterized the French involvement in Indochina. For my part, I am convinced that if Amer- ica is genuinely interested in helping Viet- nam defend her freedom and independence against the Communist menace, she must help us to install a representative civilian government with the participation of all the foremost nationalist leaders in the,...verY shortest time possible. With genuine repre- sentation embodied in government under the leaders who have earned real popular support by their long and dedicated struggle against communism, dictatorship, and feudalism, we can assure a renaissance of the national spirit. A nationalist government can create the atmosphere of purpose and dedication? so so sorely lacking today?that can turn the tide against the Communist aggressors. I believe that if Khanhis really the great military genius he is claimed to be, he should be named supreme commander of all Vietna- mese forces and be given a year to "pacify South Vietnam." Then he could begin his triumphal march to Hanoi and realize the unification of_ the Country as he has so often said he could. There is no point in wasting the time of this Military wizard in diplomatic maneuvers with Sihanouk, Chang Kai-shek, and De Gaulle or in parades and "barnstorm- ing" tours. If he can win the support of the army and galvanize its will tolght, then the route to quick and total victory has been found. Too much time, money, and prestige have been wasted Miring these last years in supporting the false doctrine of building up strong men in hopes of winning the war by strictly military means. Continued, obsti- nate adherence to this policy can only end at the bargaining tables of Geneva and a hu- militating defeat for the free world and all it stands for. I would like to draw your attention equally to the massive utilization of napalm and white phosphorus against defenseless cities and villages as reported in the New York -Herald Tribune, April 2, 1904. Instead of killing Vietcong combattants, this tactic takes its greatest toll among innocent civil- ians including women, children, and the aged. These barbaric attacks are acts of reprisal and repression which succeed in little more than turning the peasant popula- tion against the United States which supplies the necessary bombs and aircraft. This is not the way to win the minds and hearts of men?rather it is the way to become known as the new colonialists. Because of tacit American support for these actions, there is a growing gulf between the Vietnamese and -American peoples which has become a seri- ous threat to the interests and prestige of your country. I hope that you will do every- thing in your power to limit these bombard- ments in favor of attacks on strictly military objectives which do not slaughter or alienate the civilian population. I know perfectly well that Khanh and his regime are being launched even more strongly than was our mandarin and that consequently any change in America's Viet- nam policy is unlikely for the near future. Duty, my friendship for your great Nation, and love of my own country nonetheless, compel me to continue my appeals for com- monsense in this important struggle. The solution of Khanh and the sects is an in- imaginative one. Followed too long, it will complete the destruction of your efforts, prestige, and interest in Vietnam. Only the nationalist program offers real prospects for an anti-Communist victory. Only a repre- sentative nationalist government can create a prosperous and powerful bulwark in the image of Japan and West Germany, to face the Communist threat and the neutralist conspiracy of Prince Sihanouk. Within the next few weeks I will be sending you a de- tailed program which can?if it is applied in time?save South Vietnam from what appears to be almost certain disaster. This nationalist program for unity and progress outlines a step-by-step procedure for estab- lishing the fundamental conditions for vic- tory in Vietnam. I hope that you will find this material both interesting and useful. Please accept my deepest respects. I / remain, Sincerely, TRAN-VAN -TUNG. TRA N"-VAN-TUNG Tran-Van-Tung, renowned author of more than 12 books on the culture and traditions of his country, was born in 1915 in central Vietnam, the eighth child of a well-known _ and prosperous family. Constantly in search of new knowledge, he acquired a Chinese classical education, and then supplemented it by studies in Paris. ? By the end of World War II, he was already an acclaimed writer and journalist, several times Laureate of the Academie Frangaise, and prizewinner of the Academy of Political Science in Paris for his farsighted and bril- liantly written book, "Vietnam Faces Her Destiny." Many of his works, which include essays, poems, and tales of' Vietnam, have been published by Mercure de France, Gras- set, etc. His most recent books include "La Colline des Fantornes" (Editions du Parc, France), "Vietnam Against Communism" and "Vietnam" (La Baconniere, Switzerland), ? "Vietnam" has also been published in Eng- lish by PRM publishers of London. Although he represented his country on several important occasions, including the anniversary of the French Revolution in 1939, the Nationalist Asiatic Conference in India In 1950 (where he first met Nehru and other Asian leaders), and the Far East Conference held in New York in 1952, Tran-Van-Tung was primarily a man of letters, an historian, and a thinker. Because of his strong hu- manitarian principles and his firm belief in the ideals of liberty, he has always been an arch enemy of communism, colonialism, and the monarchy in Vietnam, and has witten articles expounding his views in leading American newspapers, as well as in his books. But it was only after disaster wiped out his family and his possessions that Mr. Tung began to take an active role in politics. Fol- lowing the Communist invasion of central Vietnam, his mother died of hunger, his five brothers and seven sisters were assassinated or imprisoned, and all his property was con- fiscated. It is now 10 years since he has had any news of his family from Communist- controlled central Vietnam, and Tran-Van- Tung has dedicated his life to the struggle against the Communists who seek to conquer the rest of Vietnam. In 1952, while he was representing Viet- nam at the FarEast Conference in New York City, Mr. Tung was summoned to visit Ngo- Dinh-Diem, who was then taking refuge at the Maryknoll Seminary in Ossining, N.Y. Mr. Tung met with Diem and urged him to return to Saigon to help in the strug- gle against communism. He continued to support Diem until 1956, despite his grow- ing disillusionment with Diem's policies and dictatorial methods, and his inability to de- feat the Communists. In 1955, the Demo- cratic Party of Vietnam was formed to de- fend the liberty and independence of the young Republic. Mr. Tung is the guiding light of this party, whose aim is to establish a free and democratic government, and to achieve, through a concrete program, the best material, Intellectual, moral and social con- Approved For Release 2005/02/10.: CIA-RDP66B00403R00200140015 7 - 11368 P44 oak Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 ditions for the people of Vietnam. When, in 1957, Diem hanned all national political parties and imprisoned all leaders opposed to him, Mr. Tung realized fully that Diem had betrayed the cause of liberty in Viet- nam, replacing the principles in which Mr. 'rung so strongly believes with a corrupt dic- tatorship and totalitarian methods similar to those employed by the Communists. At present Mr. 'rung continues to fight for liberty and to oppose communism and dic- tatorship with all the strength of his force- ful personality. He represents the new gen- eration of Vietnamese, and Is the recipient of many messages of esteem from such world leaders as President John P'. Kennedy, Gen- eral de Gaulle, Ramon Magsaysay, etc. He leads a simple, ascetic life, reads voraciously, and works untiringly. A man of thought, to whom personal wealth is of no importance, Tran-Van-Tung is a fervent nationalist, and an anti-Communist by principle and ideal- ism, as well as through personal tragedy. For 10 years he has been actively engaged in the struggle against communism, feudalism and dictatorship. His one passion is his country, and his only goal the liberty and welfare of his people. [From the Washington Post, May 16, 1984] used in the battle of Europe?sit in the capital of Saigon. A regular Vietnamese Army of 250,000 plus some 200,000 paramilitary members of the Self-Defense Corps and the Civil Guard. The rule of thumb ratio for fighting a guerrilla war Is 'toto I. South Vietnamese forces, exclusive of their American advisers, outnumber the official estimate of Vietcong by 18 to 1. In addition, a highly placed U.S. military authority in Saigon is reported to have acknowledged that there hasn't been one casualty to a Vietnamese officer above the rank of captain in the past 2 years. He added that once a man gets to be a major he seeks a staff command back In Saigon, not a field command exposed to fire. In the face of these statistics, indicating something is needed besides more men, equipment. and money, the U.S. Air Force and the Vietnamese military want more bombing raids, and by Jets if possible. Moreover a Joint Chiefs of Staff memo in January reportedly pushed by the Air Force over the reluctance of the Army deplores the diplomatic inhibitions being put upon the military. These restrictions confine bomb- ing targets to within South Vietnam. Now, with more planes and more pilots circling the skies over a Vietnamese guerrilla ground war significantly devoid of conven- tional bombing targets, critics of the Air Force think the temptation to bomb vil- lages under the labia of "Vietcong bases" may become overwhelming. But will such bombing win the war? Those in Washington who say it won't, and who oppose the U.S. Air Force and the Vietnamese bomb advocates, contend the answer is not more men, equipment, and money. These critics are not sure the war can be won at all. But if it can be. they argue that more at- tention be paid to getting Vietnamese as well as American brass out of Saigon, to decen- tralize the u.s. military advisers, to dispatch- ing U.S. military to South Vietnam on a voluntary basis so they don't count the days until their return, and to seeing to it that U.S, aid gets out into the countryside where it is needed. BERKELEY. Cater., May 20, 1964. VIETNAM STRATEGT?DOUBTS RAISED OVER MC- NAMARA PLAN (By Warren Banal Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara's press announcement Thursday on the de- cision to beef up the South Vietnamese Air Force Is causing considerable dismay among some official quarters in Washington. They see McNamara's decision as a green light to those high officials in the U.S. Air Force and the South Vietnamese military who think they can win the war against the Communist Vietcong by dropping bombs. The Air Force theory is that a bomb is the quickest, cleanest, and most effective way of wiping out the Communists?within South Vietnam as well as across the borders in Communist North Vietnam and neutral Cambodia. But some State Department and U.S. Army officials argue that what the Air Force calls a 'Vietcong base" may well contain many innocent Vietnamese farmers. They say bombing them will only alienate the Viet- namese people from both their own govern- ment and the United States, and force them to be more sympathetic toward the Vietcong. McNamara, at his White House press con- ference Thursday, announced an agreement with the Vietnamese to increase the number of planes in the Vietnamese Air Force, as well as to double the present 200 South Viet- namese pilots. On Wednesday. Air Force Secretary Eu- gene IL Zuckert announced that 76 Navy Kkyraider bombers, capable of carrying three times the load of present U.S. planes In South Vietnam now were en route to the war front. Yesterday, Presidential Press Secretary George Reedy indicated Mr. Johnson soon may be sending up a special budget request to Congress to take care of increased U.S. military assistance to South Vietnam. All this would be in line with the tradi- tional American response to send in more men, equipment, and money whenever the going gets rough?and particularly when Congress begins heckling an administration for not producing victories. But what is the current situation in South Vietnam? Officially, the Pentagon lists the number of Vietcong infiltrators at 25,000. Against these there are: More than 16,000 U.S. military "advisers." 2,000 to 3,000 of them actually in the field. The rest, including some 14 to 15 generals? enough for an Army group headquarters Senator ()BURNING. Washington, D.C.: Students urge an immediate end to war In Vietnam; withdrawal of U.S. troops and ma- terials; abide by the 1954 Geneva agreement. (The above telegram was signed by the fol- lowing students:) Deborah Rosamtua, James Taylor, Margie Jacobsen. R. M. Hamilton. Carol Davenport, Carla McCabe, Ronald 13layen, Wendell Brun- ner. Edward Resenfeid, Dorothy Mith. Bruce Gale, Alice Large. Frank Andrews. Stanley Narrar, Denn S. Anderson, Stanley Pishkin. Romer Greene, Jeff Lusting. R. Farrell, Mar- sha Ron wisocrkinM:reaDounglasWixmito mann, toJnat. k Lin Jensen, Judy Meyers, Eden Lipsom. Arnold Abrams, George Goldman, Jerry Weber, Thomas Mil- ler, Patti Ilyarna. Ken Cloke, Florence Yellin, Christopher Stantiend. Christina Wren, Sheila Walsh. Matt Canon, Bill Rotte-nberg, Mark Birn- baum, Peterr Schaffer. Nicholas Jankowski, Allen Bortel, Margaret Koster. Judith Toben, Elsa Johnson. Carolyn Smith, Margarte Flani- gan, Myren Wesshaw. Roslyn Tumen, P. Drunks, David Walls, Mark Davenport, Ellen Prank, Laurence Slayen. John Perlman, Thomas Smith, Kath- leen Barta. Michael Kogan. Jan Cattalos. Gordon Wilson, Susan Davis, Henry Lorenvzi, Michael Miller, Dave Minor, Bonnie Walters, Robert Mese, Sandra Liuck, Alfred Walters, ? Susan Miller, Roy Torkington, Marian Moses, Allen Ren, Susan Garlock, Anita Levine, Carol Furst. Ann Higginbottom. Sander Fuchs, Richard Hoffmann, Leo Downey, Amelia Clemens, Barbara Whitt, Michael Whitt. Madge Strong, Thomas Weller, Sandra Nicholson, Peter Aborn, John Rooerts, Art Goldberg, Leanne Tannenbaum, Steven Plageman, Armin Wright, Stepehen Jacobsen, Hal Fretwell, Judith Beaton, Ellen Horwitz, Tom Paine, Linda Murrell, Steven Crafts, Jean Rothman, Harvy Meyers, R. Fat- ienbaum, Bob Nakamura, Marie Holliday, Ronald Atkin. Anita Pita. Anne Boytin, Michael Galvin, James Ogden. Tirnithy Thomas, Roy Doug- las. Janet Weitzner, Henry Weinstein, Libbe Hurvitz, Gerald Wick, Deborah Bartlett, Carol Lyons, Judith Stein, Jerry Fish, Arlene Comm, Alice Schwartz, Robert Dietrich, Hugh Fowler, Paula Katz, Goerge Higginbot- tom, John Williams, Elliot Costello, Thomas Dodd, Judy Winston, Peter Muldavin, Linda Smith, Penny Guy. David Stein, Mary Kington. Priscilla Dud- ley, Petter Bissell, Edwin Wilson. Ronald Rohman, P. Sholund. Susanna Pale, Robert Johnson, Colleen Eldridge, Stephen Wein- stein, Richard Gardner, Eva Haves, Donald Kelsey, Donna Launer, Arlene Blenne, Joe Hacker, Jeannie Wald, Elaine Duncan, Eve Corey. Susan Swift, Joe Webb, Brude Boston, Robert Hayes, Bruce Cox, Jan Dash, David Heath, Michael aillimah. Stephanie Probst, Margaret Lima, Carl Clevriow. Robin Rosenberg. Helen Fein, Mar- lene Licht, Craig Moody, Mike Smith, Harry Roberts, Carolyn Pardee, Rob Pierre, Rutham Corwin, Abraham Bahr, Stephanie Waxman, Sandra Breit, Claude Beagane, Bob Williams, Earl Lab, Bruce Pohdron. Eugene Lavenger, Chip Weitzner, Margie Tette, Ben Crites, Maryanne Sea, P. Pharalyn. Mr. MORSE subsequently said: Mr. President, while I was serving as one of the hosts of a group of visiting Orego- nians, I was not on the floor of the Senate when the Senator from Alaska [Mr. GatrEringc] delivered his speech today on South Vietnam, which he entitled "Bring the War in South Vietnam Also to the Conference Table." I read the speech, and I congratulate him again, as I have done repeatedly in recent months, as the courageous, dedi- cated Senator from Alaska has stood on the floor of the Senate and spoken out in righteous and rightful criticism of the foreign policy of the United States in southeast Asia. His speech today is an additional chap- ter in criticism of American foreign pol- icy in South Vietnam. I think so highly of this series of speeches of the Senator from Alaska that I would at this time suggest that, with only the slightest of revision, they would. be suitable for publication in a book. It has been a matter of pride to me to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Sen- ator from Alaska [Mr. Gstrztarlol , the Senator from Louisiana [Mr. ELLENDER), and the other day the Senator from South Carolina [Mr. JOHNSTON], in crit- icizing American foreign policy in South Vietnam. To the extent that he has suggested modifications in American foreign policy in South Vietnam, I have also been pleased to applaud the majority leader of the Senate [Mr. Marrseisto]. I be- lieve the statement that the majority leader made of recent date, suggesting that we ought to consider fully a pro- Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 1964 2005/02110: QIA-RDP66B90403 , CONGRESSIONAL RECORD --?SE Dosal of the French for a change of pol- and what I say today and what I shall icy_ in South Vietnam, is absolutely continue to say day by day, I shall have sound., , z??,. many eastigations heaped upon my head, But particularly wish to commend,. including those of yellow journalism, one the Senator.frOril 41aalra his SPeeeh of whoSe Writers a_ storY todaY sug- today. tn the news release it is stated ?Bested that the gepator from _Oregon that_athe_gwg,oeiSiOn of the ,.T.Ohn- talked as if he were speaking from the admitatratiPn. 1,67: i5,1:a',ce the Cam-' Kremlin. bodia-gouth Vietnam border dispute in None of _those yellow journalists hate the hand's 'OT the 'United Nations Seal- ,communisni more than does the Senator ray 'Council has been praised by Sena- from Oregon. But I obviously love my -tor ticiTEST b4iiiisuO today.? country more, because my country cries = In, the speech itself, the first para- out for the application of the rule of law graph reads as folITOWs; , for the settlement of the d. , ,sputet for r President and AinT?assad6r Ste- southeast Asia, My countryh cries nn venson 'are',Up' be -highly congratulated for a return to the fulfilling of its oblika- taking a pert-fon Of the Southeast Asian tions under the United Nations Charter. -mess to the United Nations. ,That is, precise- Adlai Stevenson, in his speech of yes- ? ly where it belongs. I have so urged ever terday, in paragraph after paragraph, &pee gar6h lo, 1904, when I spoke in the walked out on the very organization in Senate, and stated that the unite,d, States ? should get out of South Vietnam and un- which he sits as the Ambassador from ? Mediately Pull our troops back from the the United States. He walked ollt ,DA fighting front. _ article 33, article 37, and article 51. Hp.._ Walked out on the pledges of the United wish, to say I am glad the president States, under the United Nations Char- arid M. Stevenson, our Ambassador to ter, to resort to peaceful procedures, and the Vnited Nations, at long_ last have not military might, for the settlement of lippafentlY Come to recognize that the disputes that threaten the peace of the United -Nations has aP interest wbat world. goes on in South _Vietnam. T4a, is Of course it is not pleasant for me to Some progress. . say this?a longtime admirer of the ,The Senator from AlaSkkalso points great Stevenson. I resigned from the out in his speech that comments of van- Republican Party in 1952, in the midst oils newspaper columnists and corre- of a campaign, so I could campaign for Spondents today indicate that this may Stevenson. I thought I had no ethical be the _beginning of a change of policy right to remain in the Republican Party - on the part of the bnited_States, where- and campaign for him as the Democratic by we shall gradually take the South candidate. But the Stevenson for whom VietnaM matter to the I/M.4d Nations. I campaigned in 1952 and 1956 was not eI not only hope so?I pray for it. the Stevenson who talked in the Security But the suggestion that the caul- - Council of the United Nations yesterday. bodian dispute be handled by the United He never before made a speech consisting 'Nations will, of eourSe,,PAPt, _Salve the of such a chain of non sequiturs and ra- _ Probleni. As I pointed, out in a_long tionalizations of unsound policies. But speech_ fn the Senatc Jas.& night, the en- he was mouthing the policy of our Gov- tire, ,soitnea,st Asia issue, should _have ernment. been taken by the United States to the An ambassadorship is not worth that - United NatiOns, months age: The United price. So I am again raising my voice States Should stop its illegal, unconsti- in plea today that this country go back tutional course o aetiou iii South Viet' into the United Nations in fact?in prac- nail, resulting in the unjustifiable kill- tice?rather than merely keep a member- Ing of American boys. ship in it. This gesture on the part of the U.S. I am raising my voice in plea again GoverriMent, through _the lips of Adlai today that the United States lay the Stevenson yesterday that the Cambodian. whole southeast Asia issue before the border disPute he taken to the United United Nations and put Russia on the Nations is far from a satisfactory pro- spot. Let Russia dare to use the veto 156sal for a 8-91*itm et tie. si.itb Viet' in the Security Council on the question nam of taking jurisdiction of the southeast As Isaid last night, and as I repeat Asia issue. If she does, the course of today, I think the speech of Adlai Ste- conduct of my Government should be Ammon SresterdaY was unfortunate, un- clear. We should call for an extraordi- sound, and inexcusable, nary meeting of the General Assembly Adlai Stevenson knows better, He can of the United Nations and lay the whole never justify the use of his lips yester- issue before it. Let the General Assembly _day in uttering a speech in Which he of the United Nations determine whether walked cut time ancl time, again from the United Nations will attempt to main- the glorious record of statealliallShil) that tam n peace, which is its primary purpose. he has Made ill the Past. That is behind We support this type of procedure and us now. ,The question is whether or not program in the Middle East, in the Congo, -this country is to make a recovery. It in Cyprus, wh3r not in southeast Asia? St te ? ' Is a question of whether or net the United We should not limit a proposal for United last,oIiJg, at long to reassert Nations jurisdiction to South Vietnam. Itself for: the application of the rule of It involves North Vietnam. It involves laW, in. the sattlement p disputes that Laos. It involves Cambodia. The whole - thrpaten_the,peace of the world, rather area of Indochina should have United , than rattle the U4 sahre and, behind the Nations jurisdiction extended to it and scenes, get' ready to escalate the war into maintained in order to keep the peace. North Vietnam. For that is what is go- I am aghast, Mr. President, at my ing on now. For what I said last night Ambassador in the United Nations, Mr. 11369 Stevenson, suggesting as American policy our opposition to another conference called for by France of the Geneva ac- cord membership. We did not even sign the Geneva accord of 1954. We are the last country to talk about not having a conference of the signatories to the Ge- neva accord of 1954. In my judgment, France should be applauded for suggest- ing the reconvening of the Geneva accord conference. This time, if it is recon- vened, I hope that the United States will sit as a member, and a voting member, and, by way of peaceful procedures of international law, reach a settlement or a program for seeking to maintain peace in South Vietnam, and not to make war. What a reflection on the United States that in southeast Asia today the United States is making war. What does that do to all the professings of our leaders about, their desire to promote peace? We do not promote peace by making war. We do not promote it by following a uni- lateral military course of action resulting in the loss of thousands of lives, and which is now beginning to result in the loss of several hundred American lives. If we do not stop this holocaust, I warn again?as I have warned many times on the floor of the Senate in the past sev- eral weeks?that thousands of American .boys will be killed in southeast Asia. For if this war is escalated into North Vietnam, a holocaust of major propor- tions will result. I have no intention of sitting in the Senate and supporting a program which will kill American boys in the jungles of Indochina without any justification. Mr. President, I hope that my Gov- ernment will go much further than merely to suggest that a United Nations council or peacekeeping corps of some kind be set up to patrol the borders of South Vietnam and Cambodia. Along with the Senator from Alaska [Mr. GRuENINs], I would welcome that, of course. It is better than nothing, but not much better than nothing. It could be the beginning of a full-scale program of returning to the United Nations in practice. That is what I hope it will lead to. But we do not have much time, for the situation can get out of hand. We have been dragged before the Unit- ed Nations by a complaint from Cam- bodia. As the Senate knows, for many weeks past I have been warning in my almost daily speeches that sooner or later we would be called to render an accounting before the United Nations on this issue. It was up to little Cam- bodia to file its complaint, after she had kicked us out of Cambodia. If it were not so tragic, it would be amusing to read that part of Stevenson's speech yesterday which admitted viola- tion of Cambodian borders in the in- cidents in which we were caught red- handed. ? I have received many letters written by American servicemen in South Viet- nam to the effect that violations of the borders of Cambodia have been frequent. We must expect that to happen, Cam- bodia is a small territory. With all the air combat going on, it must be expected that violations of her borders will oc- cur. That does not make it right. That Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403RD00200140015-7 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 11370 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE ney General to institute suits to protect which have ben made over the centuries constitutional rights in public facilities to abrogate it, in the hope that the les- and public education, to extend the sons of history will be heeded: Commission on Civil Rights, to prevent TRIAL BY JURY: 'CRT-LINZ OF ORIGINS AND discrimination in federally assisted pro- EFFORTS To ABROGATE grants, to establish a Commission on A. ENGLISH ORIGINS OF TRIAL BY JURY Equal Employment Opportunity, and for Modern scholars agree that trial by jury other purposes. as we know it today had its origins in medie- Mr. TALMADGE. Madam President, val England in the first century and a half of throughout all of Anglo-Saxon history, Norman rule when William the Conqueror from ancient England to the present and his heirs sought to strengthen their time, the people have come to learn that hold upon the foreign land which they had conquered. the right to a trial by jury is of the 1. The Anglo-Saxon system of justice which utmost importance to the preservation William discovered in England at the time of their life, liberty, and property. of the conquest had elements that fore- History shows that this was a hard- shadowed the use of juries. The courts were learned lesson, and that often, in order Presided over by a reeve (sheriff), and 12 sen- to assure themselves this right, the peo- tor thanes (lords) usually acted as the judges. pie were compelled to resort to rebellion According to a law of Ethelred (c. 981), they "swear on the relic that is given to them and even bloodshed, and revolution In hand, that they will accuse no innocent man, nor conceal any crime." The customary method of asserting innocence was for the accused to bring forward 12 compurgators, who would swear together on his sound char- acter and good reputation. These two ele- ments, combined with a reliance upon sworn witnesses and neighbors and upon openness In all dealings presented the legal background upon which the Normans. built a formalized procedure. 2. The earnest clear use of the jury is found in the sworn Inquest, originally a Prankish or perhaps even Roman practice whereby the ruler sent out his agents to question people throughout the kingdom on any matter of government or administration which Interested him. William the Con- queror instructed his agents to summon a number of reliable, knowledgeable men in "every shire and hundred," put them on oath to tell the truth, and then ask about landholdings, property, previous tax assess- ments, and similar matters. These sworn in- quests provided the material for the Domes- day Book, which recorded the names and properties of all landholders. One of the most famous of these inquests was held dur- ing William's reign on Pennenden Heath where Lanfranc, Archbishop of Canterbury, reclaimed the lands which had been taken from the archbishopric by Williams' ruth- less half brother. Odo of Bayeux. For 3 days all the important men of the county were heard, swearing that Lanfranc was the law- ful holder of the lands in dispute. 3 The function of the jury as essentially a May 22 does not excuse it. But that is a part of the warmaking business. What I wish to do is to get my country out of the warmaking business into the peace- keeping business. We are a member of a great organization known as the United Nations which has as its Primary purpose?in fact, its objective?the maintenance of peace by resort to peace- ful procedures of international law en- compassed by reference in the United Nations Charter. So I say to my President, to my Secre- tary of State, to my Secretary of De- fense?and now to Adlai Stevenson: "Please bring to an end your illegal McNamara's war in South Vietnam. Stop it. Call upon the United Nations to take over and maintain a peacekeeping corps in southeast Asia which will bring an end to the killing that is going on. I state once again the great tenet of a great Republican who was my best teach- er in the field of foreign policy. I have cited it before, but it needs to be repeat- ed again and again, because we have pre- tended that it was the basis of American foreign policy vis-a-vis the United Na- tions. I want to make it not a pretense but a reality. That great Republican from Michigan, Arthur Vandenberg, chairman of the Foreign Relations Com- mittee of the Senate, one of the archi- tects of the San Francisco Charter, at one time the leading isolationist in the Senate, to become, in my opinion, the leading internationalist of this body, left us the tenet which I should like to leave with the Senate again today, as I close my remarks: There is no hope for permanent peace in the world, until all the nations of the world, not just those we like but all the nations of the world are willing to set up a system of international justice through law to the procedures of which will be submitted each and every dispute that threatens the peace of the world, for final and binding deter- mination, to be enforced by an International organization such as the 'United Nations. I recommend this tenet for reappraisal, review, and reconsideration by the heads of my Government, the President, the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Defense?and I suggest that Adlai Ste- venson reconsider it also. I suggest that Adlai Stevenson, as the American Ambassador to the United Na- tions, who owes a trust not only to the United States but also to the United Na- tions itself, proceed to do what he can to implement that great principle of American foreign policy, at least as a first step to return on the long road of retreat from statesmanship which he made yesterday, when he delivered that unfortunate, unfounded, and fallacious speech before the Security Council of the United Nations. [Applause from the galleries] CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1963 The Senate resumed the consideration of the bill (H.R. 7152) to enforce the constitutional right to vote, to confer jurisdiction upon the district courts of the United States to provide injunctive relief against discrimination in public accommodations, to authorize the Attar- against rulers who would oppress them and attempt to make them mere chat- tels of the government. It is a difficult thing, and this we all know, to take the power to oppress away from government once it has been given this power. Governments always are hungry and thirsty for power, and once it is placed within its grasp, it is next to impossible to ever take it away. So It has been throughout all of history, and so it is today. We have liberty and freedom in Amer- ica. We owe it to the courage, foresight, and the wisdom of our forefathers. It Is a rich heritage that we enjoy as have no other people in history. We are a free people because our sys- tem of government is based upon the sound philosophy that all power of the Government is derived from the consent of the governed. In this country, the actions of the Government is determined by the will of the people. The will of the people is not bent to the will of the state as it is in totalitarianism and communis- tic government. However, we must ever be vigilant to protect our rights and freedoms and not to take them for granted. For history also has shown that when the people are unwary and not careful about the power they bestow upon their government, they local factilnding board continued through have found themselves entwined in the the reign of Henry II in the inquest on sher- iffs to inform the King about the conscien- tiousness of his representatives, and through One of the most basic of all of the the reign of Richard I in the assessment by rights of the American people is the local juries of the Saladin tithe of 1188, the right of a trial by jury in OW courts of first tax on income and personal property, law in all criminal prosecutions. With- needed to finance Richard's crusade. out this right, we would soon lose all that 4. The scope of the jury was greatly ex- we hold dear. It Is interesting to trace Panded by Henry II as a means of indicting the Anglo-Saxon history of jury trials those who had violated the King's peace by robbery, thievery, murder, arson, or counter- and it is especially noteworthy to see how feting. In these assizes, the itinerant jus- this right evolved from ancient history, ticea were assigned definite schedules and to Magna Carta, to the Declaration of areas in which they were to try in the King's Independence, to the Constitution, and name all men accused by their neighbors of to the present day. these misdeeds. Henry Il also initiated three And when we see how people have new actions whereby the decision of a jury would determine whether anyone had been struggled and fought and died to secure wrongfully ousted from possession (as dig- the right to a trial by jury, It under- tinct from title) and if so would immed1- scores the amazement which I feel in ately reinstate him. finding myself compelled to stand in this 5. Thus the jury was originally developed Senate today to speak in its behalf, to -DOt to give a verdict but to supply evidence defend it and to urge it. on oath, as witnesses do today. Insofar as To my mind, it is not a debatable issue. this evidence amounted to an indictment, tht juries were parallel to modern grand ju- It is as basic and fundamental a right ries. Until the 13th century, the indictment as any to be found in the Constitution. by jury was followed by a trial by ordeal, bat- I now wish to read a history of illrY tie, or compurgation (in which the accused trial, with particular emphasis on efforts endeavored to produce as many men as pos- Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 e 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP661300403R015400140015-7 1964 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE ? 11371 sible to swear to his innocence). 011:ly as the belongings wtihout a trial by jury; and Islfr. TALMADGE. The Senator is en- men mine to doubt the validity -61 ordeals, -.. 7- I am wholeheartedly in agreement with the church refused to pre:side Mier the dr- this principle. deals, which thus could not-be said to reflect Our Constitution declares, In article God's will, 'and as Men became willing to ac- cept the opinion of a second, deciding jury III., section 2, paragraphtclearest 3, in languagen ouncer- (which'inight contain the same personnel as tam terms, and in he lea re t the intlictin.g juri"), did trial-by jury become possible, that "the trial of all crimes, universal, Ironically, hoVieVer, a-ll men were except in cases of impeachment, shall still thou,ght to be entitled to God's verdict be by jury." through ordeal? rather than to be forced to Furthermore, to reenforce this provi- rely upon a mere human decision, and trial sion, to insure it for our people for all by battle-was not formally abolished inEng- land until the -18th century. time, the right to a trial by jury was 6. Trial by jury was always a privilege 0f.. provided for in the Bill of Rights. fered Only by the king in his courts : The In the sixth amendment we are told feudal lords were not permitted to offer jury so that no one could mistake its mean- trials ,but wereShemselMethe judges in their ing, that accused persons shall enjoy the Practically a Frankenstein monster? own courts, As a -result,' since many cases right to a speedy and public trial in all Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is ? involved alleged malpractices by the lords, criminal prosecutions; not some crirni- correct. The star chamber proceedings litigants relied more and more on the icing's courts with their relatively impartial juries. nal prosecutions, Madam President, but started out to correct abuses that then ' This increased appeal to the royal courts, all criminal prosecutions; not only where existed in England. But they became so cauSed almost entirely by the innOVationof a person may be sentenced for nfore than horribly corrupt that the people rebelled, jury trials, was perhaps the greatest -single a certain number of days or fined more Charles the First last his head, and the factor in the development of a strong cen- than a given number of dollars, but "in star chamber procedure was abolished. tral aciminiStretiOn in Bngland, an adminis- all criminal prosecutions." Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Can the Sen- tration which, Moreover, was never wholly I continue reading: ator tell me whether the star chamber dependent upon the feudal classes for its services not" evr wholly divorced from the C. ATTAINT OF JURORS AND STAR CHAMBER trials were those in which the great liar, e Middle classes who helped to 'ad-minister its '1. The greatest threat to jury trial in the Titus Oates, would testify as a profes- justice. - ' - Middle Ages was the decreasing strength of sional witness? . _ ? . mAem CAR -TA Alm 7 ? ,J:CtRy - , the kings who controlled the royal justice. Mr. TALMADGE. I believe that was os TWI,11 , For whenever a weak king came to the illustrated in my research. aiSUse 0 of k..aRn'a' Carta -iiiidedi '"isT0' throne, the feudal 'nobles did not hesitate Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Were the freefnan shall be taken or tend] imprisoned- to bribe or theaten jurors flagrantly. Many star chamber proceedings those in which or disscised or exiled or in any way destroyed, kings, often handicapped by the need of , nOr 111 We go upon him, except by the law- noble support for foreign wars, had not the a man did not have an opportunity to * ful judgment of his peers or [and' by the power to check these mighty bons. confront and cross-examine his accuser, law of the land." Modern scholars are, Zgreed 2, The process of attaint, originally de- or the witnesses who were called to testi- that this 'did- nnt refer Specifically to trial vied to provide extra protection to the de- fy against him? by jury_ at that time. itatli-er it Was intended fendant, constituted one royal weapon Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is en- to put an end to rapacious Ring -John's- ha-bit against the corruption of justice. It was tirely correct. That is the weakness of of taking hostages, levying exorbitant fines, really an extension of the original concept and imprisoning nobles withmit even con- of the jury as a panel of witnesses rather any system that does not have the pro- /MA-log his Own council of barons. But both than judges. When the jury gave a verdict tection of the devices that our fore- in its immediate effect and in Its later inter- _that seemed to contradict the known facts, fathers devised?that is, indictment by pretation, the clause did contribute to the the jurors themselves could be tried or at- a grand jury, the opportunity to cross- idea that Oen' man was entitled to a legal tainted ,for perjury, convicted, and Impris- examine witnesses, to have a jury trial, hearing before any penalty, detention, or dls- orieg. This practice, although originally in- to be represented by counsel, and all tended to remedy abuses len Itself ver P0s8essinn. .. , t lf , . . _ , .e _ _ .. a the protections that have developed tirely correct. It was an improvement over the then existing system. But as the Senator is well aware the Star cham- ber itself became very corrupt. Charles I, I believe it was, later lost his head be- cause of the star chamber trials. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Is that not one more example of how the theory that "The end justifies the means" can go astray and do great harm by starting with a meritorious purpose, but with a method which denies people their fun- damental freedoms, with the result that in the end it is a very horrible thing, easily to further abuse sinc the feudal lordy s Madam President, I wish to repeat that .' throughout history as being vitally nec- were also able to attaint juries who decided this provision of Magna Carta provided against them. The result was that jurors essary to insure a fair trial for the ac- that no person shall be deprived of his occupied a very precarious position and that cused and to preserve liberty for all our freedom or property "except by lawful litigation often dragged on for as much as people. Judgment of his peers, or by the law of half a century. Actions for attaint were not Mr: LONG of Louisiana. Does the the land." ???finally prohibited until the famous ushell Senator recognize the fact that under case of 1670 when a judge attempted to im- Are we now to go back on Magnathe terms of the bill, the Attorney Gen- prison a whole jury for a verdict with which Carta? Are we to go back on our Con- eral would be given the power not only - he disagreed. By that time, juries were clearly recognized as decisionmaking rather stitution, in which in four instances, to dispense with the jury trial?if the there is provided a jury trial in the pros- than evidence-giving bodies, and therefore judge would go along with him?but he ecUtion of criminal cages? Are we to the charge of perjury was no longer appli- would also have the ability to have the turn our backs upon so, fundamental a cable. Actually with the coming of the case tried before a judge whom he, as a right as that of trial by jury') strong Tudor and Stuart governments the practical matter, had recommended for the Federal bench, and who perhaps hoped to obtain a promotion by means of the recommendation of the same At- torney General. Is it not true that the Attorney General would also have the Power, in the event he thought that judge would not decide in his favor, to bring in two additional judges? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is cor- rect. The Senator has placed his finger on the weakness of the whole situation. Under the revised amendments that have been discovered somewhere by the ad hoc, unknown committee, and which have been circulating around the Cham- ber?from no Senate committee, inci- dentally?the Attorney General would even be authoriges1 to determine in what areas of the country, in what cities, or in what towns cortAin laws would be ap- Madam ? President this is precisely lengthy process of attaint had fallen into dis- what we would be doing if we were to enakt this force legislation which, in at 3. The Tudor and Stuart method of insur- ing fair juries was more direct, but per- least Ave of itsAitles would pe , " rmit hon - haps also more repugnant to our own ideas est, hard working, sincere and law-abid- of justice. The court of the star chamber ing citilens to be haulea befoie a Fed- which had gradually developed from the eral tribunal by the Attorney General king's privy council and was comprised of and sumnwily sent to jail without bene- certain privy councilors, bishops, and judges, fit of trial by jury, without having their was in 1487 given specific jurisdiction to guilt or innocence decided_orpassed upon hear and settle in closed session any disputes, by 12 mengood anruerom their own legal, judicial, administrative, in which the interest of the king was involved. communities. We cannot compromise this right by Mr. LONG of ? Louisiana. Madani providing that some accused persons in President, will the Senator yield? some cases wollid be _given a trial by Mr. TALMADGE. I yield. jury if accused of criminal Contempt of Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Does the court Under the harsh arid punitive pro- Senator's research on the subject indi- vision 9i this ipisnm?Jegislation. cate that the organization of the star 1,Tagna, part*, Provided that no man chamber actually had a good and worthy should suffer the loss of his freedom or purpose when it first started? No. Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 0111% Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 11372 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 plicable before bringing the defendants to trial before the judges he had ap- pointed. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Is the Sen- ator aware of the fact that it is in the fifth oircuit that the bill is hoped to have Its greatest impact? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is correct. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Is the Sen- ator aware that the presiding judge in the fifth circuit has had a way of being appointed on the three-judge courts when they prefer two judges who have a way of deciding against white people In certain cases? Mr. TALMADGE. If the Attorney General wants to carry it a step further, he can select the stacked judges under all conditions. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Would it not be fair to say that when he asked for a three-Judge court, it would be known what two judges he wanted to select for the three-judge court? Mr. TALMADGE. That is correct. He would want to select Judges who he knew had preconceived notions. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Would it not be fair to say that the effect of the bill would be that in the event the case were to be tried before a judge who had the respect of the community, the Attorney General would want to be sure that he could bring in two additional judges who might be despised by the same com- munity? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator has stated it correctly. A year or two ago, a Judge from North Dakota was brought to Arkansas to try a case. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. That was before they got John Minor Wisdom, and others of his caliber. Mr. TALMADGE. That is correct. They try to deprive the defendants of a trial by Jury, and then they permit the Attorney General to stack the court as he sees fit by going all over the country to select Judges whom he prefers. I thank the Senator for his colloquy and for his penetrating questions, which have helped to demonstrate the evil that would destroy the freedom of all citizens in the country, whoever they are, where- ever they may reside. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Would it not be fair to say that the result of this provision would be not only to deny a man the right to be tried before a jury, which the Constitution seeks to give him, but also to guarantee to the Justice De- partment that it can obtain two preju- diced judges to hold against the defen- dant? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is cor- rect. The entire proposal is devised on a "heads I win, tails you lose" basis. It was drafted with that end in view. Mr. LONG 'of Louisiana. I thank the Senator. Mr. TALMADGE. I continue to read from the history of jury trial: Originally the Star Chamber performed a useful task, settling disputes between and punishing important barons who might otherwise have escaped through common law loopholes, looking into cases of alleged jury corruption, handling many administration matters equitably and efficiently, and in gen- oral reinforcing rather than competing with the other branches of royal justice. 4. But, as with many other institutions founded in the best of faith and very well equipped to handle certain Immediate prob- lems, the star chamber tried to extend its potentially unlimited power into fields where It should never have gone. Under Charles I the bishops on the court undertook to punish religious writers with whom they dif- fered. to try to enforce a censorship on all printed matter, and to mete out cruel and unusual punishments for minor political offenses. The Star Chamber had clearly out- lived its usefulness as a method of con- trolling rebellious barons and was becoming an instrument for religious and political persecution. The star, chamber with its de- nial of the trial by jury which Englishmen had come to feel was their right constituted one of the main grievances against Chtirles I. and was an important element in his fall. One of the first acts of the Parliamen- tary Party after it had gained the upper hand was to abolish the star chamber in 1641, and to assert the right of every English- man to a fair and open judgment by his peers. 5. Nevertheless, unscrupulous Judges con- tinued to use the threat of attaint and fines against jurors with whose verdicts they dis- agreed. In the famous trial of William Penn. the Quaker, in 1670, the judge and court officials threatened the jurors with starvation, fines, and other punishments if they did not declare the defendant guilty of speaking at an unlawful (that is, Quaker) meeting. When the jury absolutely refused to alter their verdict, the judge had them all taken to Newgate prison, where they remained until the court of common pleas declared their commitment illegal. 6. Another Instance of the power which Judges could wield over juries fearing pun- ishment themselves is shown by the bloody circuit of Judge Jeffreys in 1686. Jeffreys headed an ecclesiastical commission which set out to punish all nonconformist sympa- thizers of Monmouth's rebellion. Be brow- beat and threatened Juries ruthlessly, with the result that over 300 people were killed and over 800 sold into slavery. This abuse of the right to a fair jury trial was an im- portant contributory cause of the glorious revolution, which deposed James and his heirs from the throne forever. D. TRIAL BY TURD' IN 1INGLAND DURING THE TRENCH WARS During and after the French Revolution a panicked fear of revolutionary elements led to repressive censorship and severe cur- tailment of civil liberties in England. But fortusately there were also men like Charles James Fox who continued to place faith in the people and who eventually won several Important victories for the principle of trial by jury. 1. In 1793 Parliament passed an act sus- pending habeas corpus for a year in certain cases. This set, renewed several times, abro- gated the ancient privilege conferred by the writ, and therefore in effect denied the ac- cused the right to a jury trial before detain- ment. Although most of the upper classes accepted this as necessary protection against revolutionaries, Charles James Fox never ceased to protest this invasion of civil liber- ties and the denial of trial by jury. Fox himself was expelled from the Privy Council In 1798 for proposing the toast "Our sover- eign?the people.' But within a decade, the crisis abated, his words were heeded, and habeas corpus and the right to trial by Jury were restored, never again to be suspended In England. Mr. SPARKMAN. Mr. President, will the Senator from Georgia yield to me for a question? The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. WAL- TERS in the chair), Does the Senator from Georgia yield to the Senator from Alabama? Mr. TALMADGE. I am delighted to yield to the distinguished Senator from Alabama for a question. Mr. SPARKMAN. First, I commend the Senator from Georgia for his con- tinuing and very able, clear, and lucid defense of the right of trial by jury. Mr. TALMADGE. I thank the distin- guished Senator from Alabama. I re- turn the compliment, because he has made some of the most magnificent speeches it has been my pleasure to hear since I have been a Member of the Sen- ate. I compliment him heartily. Mr. SPARKMAN. I thank the Sena- tor from Georgia. By the way, I used the phrase "defense of the right of trial by Jury." Did the Senator from Georgia ever believe he would be called upon to defend that right? Mr. TALMADGE. Even before I en- tered law school, I used to go to court, occasionally, to watch my father try cases. Then I entered the University of Georgia. and studied civics and history; and later I entered law school. I learned that the greatest right free men and women have is the right of trial by jury. It took bloody revolutions and sacrifices over hundreds of years to achieve this greatest of human rights. I never dreamed that at this late hour, in the year 1984, almost 1,000 years after Magna Carta, and almost 200 years after the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, I would be standing on the floor of the U.S. Senate and would be defending and speaking to protect and preserve the right of the 190 million American people to trial by jury. Mr. SPARKMAN. And pleading with other Senators of the United States to vote to preserve the right of trial by Jury? Mr, TALMADGE. The Senator from Alabama is correct. How Senators could ever read the his- tory of the right of trial by jury and the history of the Star Chamber trials and the history of Judge Jeffreys, and the history of similar developments, and then say the jury trial system is anti- quated and that we need to strike it down and end the right of trial by jury, and that our forebears were all wrong, and that now we should turn the fate of our people over to handpicked judges ap- pointed for life, not elected by the peo- ple, and let them determine all these things, is more than I can understand. Mr. SPARKMAN. And not even have the cases tried by the judges regularly assigned to the areas where the cases arise. Mr. TALMADGE. Oh, yes. The At- torney General would be authorized to "stack the deck." Mr. SPARKMAN. And to assign to the cases the judges he picked. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes. Mr. SPARKMAN. By the way, under the amendment of the Senator from Georgia which calls for the right of trial by jury, his amendment would be corn- Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R064400140015-7 , , 1964 Ct)&aitESSIONAL RECORI) -- StNATE plete, and would not necessitate any"ad- .dition whatever, would? it? -Mi. TALMA1O. That s c9.7e.ct?. ,LhT l'camseP crinl- s of every kind and character. -I point out that an identical amend- mentWaS adopted by the Senate in. 1957, by a Vote -of9-51.- t?42. One Of the co- - authors Of the amendments .t that time was the late martyred President John F. ItenriedY. Another Coauthor at that time Was the distingiiiSlied' -Majority leader of the U.S. -Senate, the -Senator. froth Montana tar. MANsFrEibl. Fur- the-1111.0e, the chrialuding speech Made at that time on the. hoer of-the Senate was :Made b the then digtinguished Majority' leader of the Senate, Lyndon B. JohriSen,. nOW".t!roi?404-61 the United States. StIARKMAN. " the way, that sPeeth Wah'iii-faVer of the athendnient, , _ ? ?. Ura8: hcit Mr. TALmAbot.- Indeed it was. Furthermore, rpofnt out that the Sen- atm' from Alabama anctIr_are nOW Stand- ' ing,for exactly What Jelin VAtenriedY, lvIntE 11/14TSFitucand-I:yndoillEl.:Sehnson , ,stobel for in 1957:7 _ ??Mr. SflARXMAN, The Sex:rat:15'r_ from Georgia -SubMittedhis m?rnent about . , 4 week S _a0c; did he notf .1k4i; TAL4A-riql.4_ Yes it was ?t about .thattiine. ,. SPA IOWAN. Si-riee rith ei,i4 We have been seryeel With iloio?rtti,4 is a, go far-:that a..tirand- nehilly be put before*, preihaliiY some time next 'Week. I have not ,counted the airierielkenta,ljbiit I - uhtlerStancthae are more than '70 arrieridinents. _ - 1Vir. IA/MOM. r'kri 'srire the 8eii- ittor'S source Of inforinagon s they same as fiine. We l'eaCt It in .thejicess,, and wellearrinflorS 'Op* 'it; and then: We , 'hear oye,4: the_aiiWairOlhit_Ositnyte- - Timis _conu4ttee which is unknown to -the Senate is going tebring i?a bitt, and that .".that 011 thic we will be gagged, and " will have- to knuckle ? under, and-Will-Thavel19.t.44,1y44,-,4h4 Mr. SpAgIMAN, The .S has -ieen-oitit-puficii0 to be the m#, aft of that bill, has 1.7).?p not? ? .aye a a- ' ilietnotailifiira that came to My: desk. It was signed by a Senator,_ but it slici_not have the imprint of any legislative cern- inittee. t was riot giceenwanteid by..any -COM-ran:tee report: There_was_no expla- nation_.01, was ilpt ey.?eh_ohQcial .Paper. t came into:_my_Affice_in spine _ way, --viomo the ? window, "whetker.,a page brought it in, whether ? -it came through the nig, or whether it fell out ,of. the 44st:46,35:4PC the, Senator from Oeorgia has no way of knowing, lvfct PO:X.1014-, ql&Pr.P, wgjipnpnie attachedrto. it ?, ? grA_was Xlanle attach04' to the piece Ot_Aaapei". On the MeniOilindtunTdocuna,ent? but there was _ document 4tSelf. ?17,441*,C4,..4 pride 'tf "afitniv.?1-4P, great, 19,.jt..__.?.4.wa?, a feund,hrig. From whence eanieth no Opp knoweth. _ 2.. Mr. SPARKMAN. What is that old saying about our friend the mule? "No pride of ancestry, no hope of posterity." Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is cor- rect?"No pride of ancestry and no hope of posterity." Perhaps the document comes in that category. However, I wish to defend the mule. In my more youth- ful days I used to plow with a mule from time to time. Mr. SPARKMAN. So did I. I rode the mule. Mr. TALMADGE. It was a part of the economy of Georgia, Alabama?, and much of our Nation. The worthy mule kept a good many of us from starving to 'death. I would not want the Mule to be placed in the same category with this other foundling about which I have _ spoken. Mr. SPARKMAN. I should like to say something else about the mule, because I join the Senator in paying high corn- pliment to the mule. As the Senator said, the mule has meant a good deal to the economy of our country?not only our section of the United States, but also the entire Nation. Mr. TArMADGE. The Nation and the world, for that matter. Mr. SPARKMAN. I remember- as a boy hearing people say, when they talked about putting out one's utmost and doing one's best, "I will do my best, and that Is all a mule can do." Mr. TALMADGE. That is correct. Mr. SPARKMAN'. That was a pretty go6d compliment to the mule, was it not? Mr. TALMADGE. That is entirely cOrrect. I agree. ' Mr. SPARKMAN. We were speaking about the rumored report that has been going around that we shall be served with a bill sometime next week, or perhaps not Until after the California primary. Is it not rather strange that activities in faraway places affect the actions of the Senate? Mr. TALMADGE. It is unthinkable to me that the Senate of the United States should even consider primaries in dealing with legislative subjects. - Mr. SPARKMAN. But the Senator has heard that rumor. Mr. TALMADGE. I have heard the rumor. In fact, I read it in the press. Mr. SPARKMAN. We have heard it over the radio. Mr. TALMADGE. That is true. Mr. SPARKMAN. The proponents of the measure talk about cloture and re- lated subjects, but they say that there will be no move on the bill until after the California primary. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes; I have seen such a report in the press several times. Mr. SPARKMAN. I am not so sure that the proponents will offer that large 'Iackage of amendments, which must be plmost a half-inch think? Mr. TALMADGE. I have heard ru- mors that there were 70- amendments. Mr. SPARKMAN, More than 70. Mr. TALMADGE. I do not know that anyone has counted them. No one has reported exactly what they are. But I am sure that it will require considerable tirae to analyze in detail the contents of those amendments. For example, I. un- derstand that one of those _amendinepW 11373 would authorize the Attorney General to determine at his own pleasure what laws of the Government would be applicable in certain areas of the country. He could say that' a particular law would be applicable in a certain parish in Louisi- ana and would not be applicable in an- Other parish in Louisiana, or that it would be applicable in Idaho, but not in Gebrgia. Mr. SPARKMAN. Would it not be the other way around? Would it not be applicable in Georgia but not in Idaho? Mr. TALMADGE. 'Very likely. I am talking about the discretion which would lie in the hands, the bosom, and the heart ef the Attorney General. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator knows as a matter of general information how it Would operate. " Mr. TALMADGE. I have an idea, but the Senator from Georgia has always been under the impression that laws were made to affect all people at all times and in all places. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator from -deorgia does not make that statement about the pending bill. Mr. TALMADGE. No; of course not. Mr. SPARKMAN, I am talking about the bill. Does the Senator know of any- thing in the purported amendments, the rumored bill, that would change in any way the original provision with reference tO trial by jury? Mr. TALMADGE. Indeed not. All that I have been able to hear about the purported new bill is to the Opposite ef- fect. It would draw the noose even tighter. It would authorize the Attorney General iii-gelect his courts at will and to determine In what counties, parishes, and State the bill would be applicable, and in what areasit would' not be appli- cable. Complete dictatorial powers would be vested in the Attorney General of the United States. Mr. SPARKMAN. During the Sena- tor's legislative career, either in the Con- gress or inhis State, has he ever encoun- teredlegition so discriminatory as the measUrehefore the Senate? Mr:TALMADGE. I never have, in all the history of our great Republic. Mr. SPARKMAN. That point leads me to another subject. We must turn to newspaper reports to determine what the new bill, or the '70 amendments, would do. Mr. TALMADGE. We must obtain our information from the newspapers or the airwaves, or some rumor that we pick up from someone who has received in- formation from other sources. Mr. SPARKMAN. Three days ago I was attracted by an article that appeared In the Washington Evening Star under the byline of J. A. O'Leary. The title of the article was ''New Rights Bill Ac- cord." Who accorded to it? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Georgia was not even invited to the meeting. He had no knowledge that any meeting was even occurring. He heard of no witnesses being invited. He knew of no testimony that was offered. There was no opportunity to cross-examine anyone. So far as the Senator from Georgia knows, the proponents might have met at a fortune teller's home and .lad her pass,judgment on the document. For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200,140015-7 11374 1011Ploi Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP6613.00403R000200140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE Mr. SPARKMAN. In any event, the Senator from Georgia is not privy to their meeting or to their counsel. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Georgia was kept in deep darkness about the whole subject; and, so far as! know, virtually every other Member of the Sen- ate was also. Mr. SPARKMAN. I should like to read the headline which I started to read: "New Rights Bill Accord Bans Busing of Pupils." Of course, we know that in the 'original bill the busing of pupils was banned. Mr. TALMADGE. No; in the original bill the busing of pupils was not banned. Mr. SPARKMAN. It was not banned, , but it was not required. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes. Mr. SPARKMAN. It was not required. There was a provision in the bill specifi- cally exempting the busing of pupils as a requirement. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Alabama has reached the second step of the evolution. Mr. SPARKMAN. I did not mean in the original bill which was presented to the House, but I meant the bill as it came to the Senate. Mr. TALMADGE. The bill authorized the hauling of schoolchildren to wher- ever they could be carried to achieve the greatest mixing effect. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator is cor- rect on that point. I meant the original bill so far as we in the Senate are con- cerned. Mr. TALMADGE. Then there was re- bellion from certain areas of the country. Mr. SPARKMAN. Including West- chester County. The Senator knows where that is, does he not? Mr. TALMADGE. Oh, yes, indeed. There was rebillion in certain areas of the country. Mr. SPARKMAN. There is no inte- gration in Westchester County, N.Y.. Mr. TALMADGE. When the question arose, the provision was stricken from the bill on the floor of the House. Now the bill has come to us as a document de- signed to attain the maximum degree of mixing in southern areas and a min- imum degree of mixing in other areas. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Mr. Presi- dent, will the Senator yield? Mr. SPARKMAN. Will the Senator permit me to conclude? Mr. TALMADGE. I yield to the Sen- ator from Alabama until he concludes his colloquy. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Civil Rights Commission is my authority for the statement which I am about to make. I call to the attention of the distinguished Senator- from Illinois that the Civil Rights Commicsion, which the Senator has supported so well, pointed out that the most highly segregated city in the United States is Chicago. Mr. DOUGLAS. Mr. President, will the Senator yield so that I may reply? Mr. TALMADGE. Mr. President, I shall yield in a moment. Mr. SPARKMAN. They get by, by saying that the segregation is not de jure but is de facto. The segregation ex- ists just the same, and the bill makes certain that that segregation will not be Interfered with. But I wish to call to the Senator's attention the new proposed amendments. Mr. DOUGLAS. Mr. President, since the name of my city has been called in question? Mr. TALMADGE. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that I may yield at this point without affecting my rights in any way whatsoever to the floor briefly to the Senator from Illi- nois for a reply. The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- out objection, it is so ordered. Mr. DOUGLAS. I thank the Senator from Georgia. First let me say, on the question of voting rights, that Negroes have equal voting rights, and that Is the practice In the city of Chicago. I wish they had this right in Alabama, in Georgia, and In other cities and States of the South. Second, they have the legal right to attend schools which are mainly attended by whites; and a considerable number of the schools of the city are in fact de- segregated. It is true that schools are in the main constructed on neighborhood patterns, so young children will not have too far to walk to and from school. It is true that residences tend to be concentrated, but not entirely so, with Negroes in one sec- tion of the city and whites in another section, and that this of necessity results In a considerable number of schools which are, as the Senator from Alabama has said, de facto segregated. In the first place, this is not as bad as though they were legally segregated. In the second place, we in Chicago are try- ing to achieve a greater degree of actual desegregation. A report has just been brought in by a committee headed by Prof. Philip Hauser, recommending that the school districts be enlarged so that they will include white neighborhoods as well as colored neighborhoods, and that in the elementary schools students be trans- ported to the schools of their choice, at public expense, and that freedom of choice be given over the entire city so far as high schools are concerned, but that here each student would have to trans- port himself at his or his family's ex- pense. I read in this morning's Chicago news- papers that a committee of 20 has been established as recommended by the Hauser report to implement these rec- ommendations and carry them out So we are trying in a positive way to overcome de facto segregation. A third and very important feature of the bill relates to public accommodations, under title U. We have had in Illinois a State public accommodations law since 1885, which has been progressively amended and strengthened many times since then, and never with a backs ard step, always with a forward step. It in- cludes not only the categories listed in the pending bill, but barbershops and a number of other categories which are not included in the pending bill. There is no segregation so far as parks, playgrounds, and swimming beaches are concerned. Formerly there was de facto segregation on the swimming beaches, but that is not true now. Finally, so far as a fair employment May 22 practices law is concerned, 2 years ago the State passed a State fair employ- ment practices act. The city of Chicago had passed a fair employment practices ordinance years before that, and we are seeking to enforce it. The scope of cov- erage is the same as that in the proposed Federal act--ultimately a coverage of all firms with more than 25 workers. We have many problems in the North, and we are certainly not perfect in the way we handle these issues. I wish to make that clear. We appreciate the greater problems which our friends in the South face, because they inherited the evil system of slavery, which we were fortunately spared, not necessarily be- cause of superior character? Mr. SPARKMAN. Because those in the North sold them to the South. Mr. DOUGLAS. But because of facts of geography and climate. Those inKhe South unfortunately have been cursed with the results of the slavery system. The point is that we are trying to im- prove. We have already gone a long way. We would like to see those in the South catch up with us. We will also go ahead more than we have. Mr. TALMADGE. Would the Senator support an amendment to restore to the bill what it originally had in it?namely, a provision to provide for the busing of students in order to achieve perfect ra- cial balance? Mr. DOUGLAS. I do not think it was ever in the bill. Mr. TALMADGE. It was, when it came to the floor of the House. Mr. DOUGLAS. No. What happened in the House was that there was inserted In the bill a provision to the effect that the bill did not deal with racial imbal- ance inside a city. This is a matter for local and State action; and we are will- ing to let that question be decided locally. I do not think this is a matter for na- tional legislation, because I do not per- sonally think we should abolish the sys- tem of neighborhood schools; but I think we can broaden our neighborhoods. Mr. TALMADGE, Was the Senator's answer in the negative or in the affirma- tive? Would he support such an amend- ment? Mr. DOUGLAS. I do not think it would be appropriate to offer such an amendment. Mr. TALMADGE. Is the Senator's an- swer in the affirmative or the negative? Mr. DOUGLAS. I will wait until such an amendment is offered, but I am sur- prised that the Senator from Georgia, who claims to be such an apostle of States rights, should invade not only State but local and city rights. This is centralization gone mad. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Georgia is defending States rights, but the Senator from Illinois is now defend- ing his own pattern of segregation. Mr. DOUGLAS. No. Mr. TALMADGE. I am asking the Senator if he would support an amend- ment to achieve perfect racial balance In Chicago; and the Senator will not answer my question. Mr. DOUGLAS. I am supporting the Hauser plan for the city of Chicago, which provides for the widening of school districts and a much greater degree of Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For Rel e 2005/02/10 .-CIA-RDP66B0040R06.14b0140015-7 ? e NGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE 194 c6 desegregation in the schools, So that 'neighborhood schools would serve broad- er neighborhoods so that both Negroes and whites,to a greater-degree, could go to those schools than at present. Will the South accept the Rouse plan? The statistical study which has been presented shows that there are a very large number of desegregated schools now. It so happens that myown area? Hyde Park Kenwood?is a desegregated neighborhood. We get along together very well. Our schools are desegregated, approximately 50 percent Negro and 50 percent white. Would that the city of Atlanta and the city of Birmingham would do likewise. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Mr. PreSi- dent, will the Senator yield? Mr. TALMADGE. I desire first to re- spond to the 'Senator from Illinois. Mr. DOUGLAS. And the 'city of New 0 1 . Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Mr. Presi- dent, will the Senator yield? - Mr. TALMADGE. I yield to the Sena- tor from Louisiana. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. The statis- tics for the year 1960, which are the latest figures I have been able to obtain, show that unemployment among the whites in Illinois is 3.8 percent?less than 4 percent?while among the Negroes it is 11.5 percent. Is it not hypocrisy to say that the Congress should enact a law in order to provide employment for Negroes, and end with unemployment among the Ne- groeS three times as much as =employ- Ment among the whites? Mr. TALMADGE. We in Georgia would not want to wish that curse on Illinois if the situation were reversed. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. These figures are based on the dtatistics. Consider the figures for Michigan. Unemployment among the whites is 6 percent, while it is 16.3 percent among the Negroes. Look at the figures for Pennsylvania. For the whites unemployment is 5.8 per- cent, and for the Negroes it is 11.3 per- cent. The ratio of Negro =employment is 107 percent greater in the North, in the F-Epp States, than it IS in the South. Would enactinent Of such a lay as is proposed be the way to get a poor man a job? Mr. TALMADGE. -I do not helieve so. I think it is the way to deny a man a job. Mr. SPARK1VIAN. Mr. President, will the Senator yield at this point for a mo- Meht? Mr. TALMADGE. I Yield. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator from Illinois said that segregation in Chicago was not legal. I suppose he means, it is not required by law. Mr. ,DOUGLAS, yes. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator, alight be interested to know that Alabama has not bad _single law requiring segrega- tion in years. Mr, DOUGLAS., It is enforced by the shotgun and by other methods as well, Mr. SPARKIVIAN. The Senator was talking about Chicago and saying that segregation is de facto. In Alabama It is de facto. Mr. DOUGLAS. I never thought the schools of Birmingham were desegre- gated. Mr. SPARKMAN. It is not required. Furthermore, the reason the Senator has this integrated school in his neighbor- hood is that currently Negroes and whites live there together as they do in the South. We do not have great ghetto areas like those in Harlem, -Chicago, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadel- phia?almost any city one could wish to name. The proponents were not content with the bill as it was originally presented to the House, not content even as it was amended in the House. A new amend- ment has been submitted, according to the press. I do not know this to be true, but it is quoted here. This is what it says regarding the transportation of students by bus. It does not say, "nothing in here shall be construed to require it." It provides: Provided that nothing herein shall em- power any court of the United States to is- sue any order seeking to achieve a racial bal- ance in any school by the transportation of pupils or students from one school to an- other, or from one school district to an- other, in order to achieve such racial balance or otherwise enlarge the existing power of the court to insure compliance with the con- stitutional standards. Mr. TALMADGE. They went a long way to prohibit anyone to make a ruling like that, but as the Senator from Ala- bama knows, he and I have been watch- ing the situation, looking at photographs, reading articles in the press, and watch- ing television. There have been gigan- tic school strikes in New York City, Phil- adelphia, Cleveland, and Chicago, in order to achieve racial integration. Now a bill is brought in, the purpose of which _is alleged to be to end discrimination which prohibits the opportunity to achieve a pure racial balance, if desired, in Chicago, in Cleveland, in New York, and other areas. Mr. DOUGLAS. Just a moment? Mr. TALMADGE. This might cause considerable consternation in many circles. Mr. DOUGLAS. As a good Democrat, may I be allowed to participate in this discussion? Mr. SPARKMAN. Is it not true that the language I have read even re- strains? Mr. TALMADGE. It dares the judge to even consider the question. Mr, SPARKMAN. It takes it away from the courts. Mr. TALMADGE. It dares the judge to enforce the order. It dares him to consider it. Mr. SPARKMAN. Yes?to carry out constitutional standards. Mr. TALMADGE. That is entirely correct. The Senator has pointed out a weakness in the particular measure. Does the Senator from Alabama desire to ask a further question? If not, I shall yield at this time? Mr. DOUGLAS. May I be heard? Mr. SPARKMAN. If I may ask one further question, then I shall cease And desist. Mr. DOUGLAS. I do not wish, the 11375 Senator to do that. I do not wish him to leave the Chamber. Mr. SPARKMAN. I was captivated by this quotation in the press of several days ago. Mr. TALMADGE. It intrigued me, too. In fact, I never heard of that particular measure- being retained in any act. It almost threatens any judge with im- peachment if he dares to even consider a matter of this kind. Mr. SPARKMAN. It is a great arm of the Congress, saying that the State could? Mr. TALMADGE. The only power to remove a Federal judge would be through the U.S. Senate. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator is cor- rect. That would be the only way to do - it constitutionally. Mr. TALMADGE. That language points a finger at the judge and says, "If you dare even to consider such an issue as this, the Senate will 'defrock' you." That Is the meaning of it. Mr. SPARKMAN. The Senator is cor- rect. The Senator also knows that many of us have thought from time to time that some restraints should be placed upon the courts. Mr. TALMADGE. But that is not the proper way to go about it. Mr. SPARKMAN. There should be a dividing line between the legislative and the judicial branches. We know that from the Constitution. Mr. DOUGLAS. May I be permitted to get into this game of table tennis that is now going on? Mr. SPARKMAN. An attempt is be- ing made to tell the Supreme Court what it cannot do. This is aimed not only at the Supreme Court, but all the courts of the United States. Mr. TALMADGE. All courts, and in the most brusque possible language?al- most rude. Mr. SPARKMAN. It is said, "Do not do it. Do not do anything otherwise than what is provided for under constitution- al standards." Can anyone top that? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Alabama has put his finger on a very weak point. Mr. SPARKMAN. Let me mention an- other point? Mr. DOUGLAS. May I not be permit- ted to get into this game of shuttlecock? Apparently it is going to continue inter- minably. May not this hapless Senator be permitted to make a few comments? Mr. SPARKMAN. I assure the Sena- tor from Illinois--one day I mistakenly called him "the Senator from Chicago." Mr. DOUGLAS. I am very proud to come from Chicago. I frequently refer to my good friend the Senator from Ala- bama as "the Senator from Huntsville." Mr. SPARKMAN. I am proud of it. I am proud to come from Huntsville. Huntsville is my hometown. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Alabama has done a great deal of good work in Huntsville. I am sure that he is proud of Huntsville, as I am sure Hunts- ville is proud of him. Mr. SPARKMAN. Huntsville orbited the first satellite the free world ever built?let us not forget that. It has ?played a reat part in orbiting every Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 11376 01111% Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 _yr other satellite since that time. But I am Mr. TALMADGE. We are not talking moving somewhat away from my subject about Supreme Court decisions, we are now, talking about a law which the Congress Mr. DOUGLAS. This seems like a of the United States will write. Mr. DOUGLAS. The provision in the proposed new title IV, to which the Sen- ator from Alabama has called attention, merely reaffirms in statutory form the language in a recent decision of the Su- preme Court, stating that in the absence of legislation or in the absence of a municipal ordinance, it is not? Mr. TALMADGE. What the Senator is talking about is legislation. Mr. DOUGLAS. It is not a violation of the 14th amendment to refrain from transporting students by bus from one section of the city to another; in other words, the 14th amendment does not carry with it the right to compel trans- fer from one neighborhood school to an- other by means of city-furnished trans- portation. If the Senator from Alabama and the Senator from Georgia have some regard for the language? Mr. TALMADGE. Mr. President, will the Senator yield at that point? Mr. DOUGLAS. I should like to read the language first. Mr. TALMADGE. I should like to clear up that point before the Senator proceeds. The Senator from Georgia? and I feel certain the Senator from Ala- bama also?agree implicitly with what the Senator from Illinois is saying about the Supreme Court decision in the bus- ing case. However, the Supreme Court has also said the same thing about pub- lic accommodations; yet the Senator from Illinois wants to ignore it. And at the same time he wants to hide be- hind the Supreme Court's decision, and keep his schools in Chicago segregated. Mr. DOUGLAS. Does the Senator re- fer to the 1883 decision of the Supreme Court on the Federal public accommoda- tions law of 1875? Mr. TALMADGE. No; the decision of the Supreme Court in 1963. The Sen- ator is a fine economist, but sometimes he is a little off base on his law. Mr. DOUGLAS. There was a decision of the Supreme Court in 1883. declaring the Federal public accommodations law of 1875 to be unconstitutional. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes. Mr. DOUGLAS. But that has been long since reversed in the mind of the public. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator will find that the Howard Johnson decision, the one which originated in North Caro- movable time. Mr. SPARKMAN. This is what I tried to move to a while .ago when the Senator insisted on referring to shuttlecock, was It? Mr. DOUGLAS. Battledore and shut- tlecock. Mr. SPARKMAN. I was intrigued by the quotation which I read in the news- paper some time ago. This is what we are talking about, in connection with the proposed civil rights bill. That was H.R. 7152, but I do not know what it will be if It has added to it several extra pounds of amendments?more than 70 of them; but this is what the speaker said: But neither this law nor any law can be a solution. We must recognize that law can only provide orderly ground rules. It can- not play the game. It is easy for us in the North to patronize the South. It is so very much easier to see the morality of problems in Birmingham when you are sitting in Boston. I might insert there, "Chicago," but the speaker said "Boston." Whatever law is debated, whatever statute Is enacted without public understanding? Mr. TALMADGE. I certainly agree with that. Mr. SPARKMAN. Does the Senator know who said that? This was in a speech made by the Attorney General of the United States. Mr. TALMADGE. I would agree with the Attorney General's comments at that time, and I would urge him to read and reread that same statement morning, noon, and evening. Mr. SPARKMAN. I could continue in- definitely. I have enjoyed this colloquy very much. I would appreciate it if the Senator would allow my friend the dis- tinguished Senator from Illinois to en- ter into this colloquy, inasmuch as I promised him that I would cease and desist. Mr. TALMADGE. I appreciate very much the comments, the colloquy, and the words of wisdom of the distinguished and able Senator from Alabama. I agree with his conclusions wholeheartedly. I am now glad to yield to the distin- guished Senator from Illinois [Mr. Douo- Lss]. Mr. DOUGLAS. I thank the Senator from Georgia. I am truly surprised that such able attorneys as the Senator from Georgia and the Senator from Alabama should be so carried away by sectional llna, was passed upon by the Supreme standards as to ignore the plain meaning Court as late as 1963. In that case the of the revised bill which will shortly be Court held that a private businessman presented to this body and have raisin- had a right to select his customers. The terpreted the decisions of the Supreme Senator from Illinois wants to change Court. It is painful but necessary to? that. He does not want to change the Mr. TALMADGE. I did not know that busing decision, but he wants to enact we had referred to any decisions of the a law so there cannot be a pure mix of Supreme Court. students in Chicago. ' Mr. DOUGLAS. It is my painful but Mr. DOUGLAS. I should like to quote necessary duty to? the passage in the proposed amendments Mr. TALMADGE. To what decision is which pertains to this point. the Senator from Illinois referring? Mr. TALMADGE. I yield to the Sen- Could he give me a specific example? ator for that purpose. Mr. DOUGLAS. The section on trans- Mr. DOUGLAS. I thank the Senator. portation of pupils by bus. The passage reads: Provided that nothing herein shall em- power any court of the United States to issue any order seeking to achieve a racial balance in any school by requiring the trans- portation of pupils or students from one school to another or one school district to another in order to achieve such racial bal- ance, or otherwise enlarge the existing power of the court to insure compliance with con- stitutional standards. All this provides is that it is not proper to use the 14th amendment?to require the transportation of public school stu- dents from one school district to another in order to achieve a racial balance. That is precisely what the Supreme Court held in the recent case. I believe it was In the Gary case. This would permit States and localities to carry out this practice if they so desired. Mr. TALMADGE. And Congress, if it so desired, by legislation. Mr. DOUGLAS. We explicitly say that this is not our purpose. We would leave it up to the localities and the States for action. What we are trying to do is to have a minimum of Federal action and maximum of local action. But not to permit localities to violate the basic constitutional protections. Mr. TALMADGE. That is what the Senator from Georgia desires. There is no difference between us in that respect, except that the Senator from Illinois wants to mix them in Georgia and segre- gate them in Illinois. Mr. DOUGLAS. My friends from the South have never accepted the results of the Civil War. They have never ac- cepted the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution as being part of our organic law. Mr. TALMADGE. I have forgotten the Civil War. I hope the Senator from Illinois has forgotten it also. Sometimes I doubt it, because he fights it over and over again on the floor of the Senate, nearly every day. Mr. DOUGLAS. I do not mean this to be a personal characterization of the Senator from Georgia. I simply refer to the section. As a result of the Civil War, the Nation decided that it would provide protection for all citizens against inva- sions, by the States of creatures of the States. In my judgment it must also do so against private persons who exercise State power. That is the constitutional basis for our proceeding under title IV. Public accommodations are something else again, because they involve the com- merce clause as well as the 14th amend- ment. I am becoming fed up with my dear friends for implying that we are hypo- crites. We are not hypocrites. No one has ever heard from my lips any attack on the people of the South. Mr. TALMADGE. I do not say the Senator from Illinois is a hypocrite. I have asked him if he would support an amendment to have a pure mix in the city of Chicago, and he would not give me an answer. He has not answered my question and he will not answer it. Mr. DOUGLAS. I support the Hauser proposal. Will the Senator from Georgia pledge that he will support the Hauser plan for Atlanta and other cities of the South? Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 proved For Rerisite 2005/02/10 : -diAAbP661100403R066400140015-7 '?, 1,9 6 CONGRESSIONAL RECORI) SENAtE Mr f4LMAflCE f'haVA aSked: the There was no marshal! economic Pro- SentitOr a'AU-Paticin aSout-'a pure x In grain of any kind to help us. Our peti- t-in-lap, the $enator from fllinois will pie almost starved to death. Never in not aripWer y fltiention",' -Ile has con- the course of human history have a peo- sistently refused to do it. The Senator pie been so completely subjugated and fromCiergia, does not kilo* why, but denied every aspect of human charity he will nOt:_acAnie_ith_e_-!enatb2r- from Eli- and dignity as was the people of the no gr,_ being a hypocrite for not South. answering. Notwithstanding that fact, we were re- :Mr. DOUGLAS. That is not the issue admitted to the Union. We have made in :the hill._ The Senator from Georgia - our contributions to the Union since that is trying to brink in extraneotig matters. . time As the Senator from Louisiana is TALMADOK. The Senator from aware, southerners have fought valiant- ' IIlinois'broughein the -OVA` Var. t did ly in the war with Spain, in the First riot do so.- World War, in the Second World War, Mr. DOUGLAS. The civil War is un- and again in the Korean war. Many fortunately still with us. Sonietimes-I of them are engaged in Vietnam right ? wonder who won it. ,I sometimes won- now. der if we should not haVe the Corded- We need not make any apologies for erate flag flying from fr the Capitol, when the South when it comes to questions of t al co lOOk pit e chairmenships patriotism and loyalty to our country. iijneethe-_Cpngere- ss7PerhapS- it -W-as not I hope that every Member of the Senate essr r Lee to take Washington will forget that unfortunate incident apex. _ which happenedthe Senatoralmos from Illinois tlO0yearshageo. ..Mr.,TAL1)41ADOt. I deeply regret that Unfortunately, the Senator, from Illinois does not reiog- will not let a day go by without mention- njze_tlia?9t, the; War 'IlletWeen ,_the states ing the War Between the States. Ap- end _ 9 years ago. I hope that the Parently what he wants to have is an- Senator from Illinol s one of these days other military occupation of the South. W yilllienOw_aOd reape kllattliat War ended , The Senator from Louisiana and the 11 $ ars ago, an quit fighting it every Senat,or from Georgia are standing on day on the floor of the Senate. the floor of the Senate trying to resist ? Mr. DOUGLAS. The war has ended it. I hope the Senator from Illinois will but trn. NG the, has just begun. ' desist. Mr. at Louisiana. Mr. Presi-- , - I now yield to the Senator from Illinois. dpot, will the Senator yield?' - - - Mr. DOUGLAS. Mr. President, does '-:-.-111,?f TAXAMpciB.=_X yleld,t6 theSen- the Senator from Georgia believe that ? aro_ from Louisiana. the very eminent southern columnist, Mr. LONG of Louisiana. I a"Pl the Mr. William S. White, is an accurate ob- penat,or if he is aware of the fact Oilat- server of the psychology of the South When the battleship Illisq6ui?i_. sailed into and the country? , TooTBALaylviA---Daz wkyMr. TALMADGE. I should h the say that , I was t h. pre on that the eminent columnist h day.,mr.LoN , Sen- ator from Illinois has referred is a more _ ? accurate observer than the Senator from , , -0 -54 lAttislann. When the . int,--- - - - - Illinois. battesOlp Missouri sailedto Tokyo Bay DOUGLAS. Does the Senator to 'accept the surrender of the Japanese, Mr. know that in his book entitled "The Cita- a - COnlederate flag was lying from 'the mainmast. rerhaps the adm. I di del" the southerner, Mr. William S. Ira, d not w ? XnoW Ei',hout,it,? -HoweieF, it was Indica- White, says that "the Senate is the : 'Give of 11- f _ e_ AO tox"? Out of their own mouths discern- alongside ,?93411%:40A tQugyi t South's undying revenge for Appomat- ._ with boys from _all parts of the country, ratio of jug and ardent southerners say that. I and even had a volunteers in the i$eoice, of countryAe- think it is true ,Mr. TALMADGE. I hope that the than any other section of the Nation. ' Senator from Illinois will not try to emu- , __? Therefore I atinni,d Me te, pay to the late William Tecumseh Sherman, who Senator that perhaps, the South is the visited Atlanta on one occasion, and only part of the country Which may burn down the city again. liaye inirgiuntarilY become a part of the m, mr. DOUGLAS. There is a question Natio u. HoWever, the South is not corn- --- as to who first set fire to Atlanta. It pm laing about it. We have always might have been the Atlantans first, be- Prove. At be- proved t: o_de_f end Oar: great . There fore Sherman ere is quite a dispute wir. APPpE. I agree with what on that point. , the Senator fro41. LOUisIana, has said. ?Mr. TALMADGE. There is-no dispute What he haa. said is true. The War end. ed in my area of the country. In 180. The Senator from, Louisiana, Mr. DOUGLAS. Oh, no. You feel being the' able historian that he is, real- very certain there. fzes that perhaps, there iiever was such Mr' TALMADGE. I hope the Senator internepine bitteinesp `pip4 uliha,-Ppiness from Illinois will not try to detract from as that which was the aftermath of the the great military reputation and the ac- W1' B etween the States.t1.1 After the war complishments of William Tecumseh e outhh atses werer e gecupied by Sherman. He is given full credit for Invading arrniep, Stall oftbia3s, Wrc,K.Olilist,.,-. ,,, --, . , burning down Atlanta, and almost starv- 414,L eu. from of- fice. ' ilitary governors ' ' ? ' were appointed. The best eitixehs were diaranehiSed. The worst Citizens Were enfranchised. Graft and corruption _and disaster were rampant everywhere for approximately 12 year's. 11377 And e was very successfulin is pur- pose. He broke the breadbasket of the South in his march through Georgia. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Mr. Presi- dent, will the Senator yield? Mr. DOUGLAS. Have we finished? Mr. TALMADGE. If the Senator pro- pounds another question, I shall be glad to answer it. The Senator from Loui- siana was on his feet asking that I yield to him. I now yield to the Senator from Louisiana. Mr. LONG of Louisiana. Not all southerners have to apologize. And not all southerners should be punished be- cause the South fought the Civil War. One of this Senator's forebears went to the convention and voted against seced- ing from the Union. My father told me that my great-grandfather not only said that we should refuse to fight, and should free the slaves, but when the sheriff came after him, he hid under the logs in the woodshed and would not have anything to do with it. I am frank to say that we could do much more for the Negroes if certain people would quit stirring the resentment of the whites against the Negroes, and of the Negroes against the whites. It sets back the cause of the colored man. During the time that my uncle was Governor of Louisiana, the colored regis- trations increased by 1,000 percent. But that was prior to the Supreme Court decision in the Brown case, and prior to the civil rights action that was going to get them the right to vote. All of the Federal compulsion has so stirred resentment among whites that now in every parish there are people organized against it. If it were not for the resent- ment which has been aroused by the interference of the outsiders, and the strong arm of the Federal Government trying to make people do things that they resent, the Negro registration would have probably increased by 70 or 80 per- cent over what it is. Mr. TALMADGE. I agree completely with the words of wisdom of the Senator from Louisiana. Of course, as the Sena- tors knows, he shares the view that most of us in the Senate have, and certainly the Senator from Georgia, that everyone is entitled to the respect which his merit, his character, and individual attain- ments entitle him to receive. Every man ought to be treated in ac- cordance with that fact, and that is the policy and the position of the Senator from Georgia. He knows many white people with whom he does not like to associate. He knows many Negroes that he does not like to associate with. There are probably some white people and Ne- groes who would not want to associate with the Senator from Georgia. That is their privilege. And I would defend their right to act accordingly. But man's relation to his fellow man is largely a matter of the heart, the mind, and the conscience. When Senators think they mg our people to death. Sherman him- can pass coercive, jail-sentence, Federal self said, "War is hell." And I believe legislation and say to a little barber, "You him,? ? , must shave this man, whether you like Mr. DOUGLAS. He believed in total it or not; you must shine his shoes, war. .? whether you like it or not; you must live Mr. TALMADGE. He was one of the in a boarding house with him whether first generals who practiced total war, you like it or not; you must eat in an ? . : Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140015-7 011114 Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 11378 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 .eating place with him whether you like to or not," all such coercion as this can do is lead to discord, friction, and ill will. I now yield to the Senator from Minois. Mr. DOUGLAS. The Senator from Georgia is always very courteous. Mr. TALMADGE. I thank the Sena- tor. The feeling is mutual. I have had the privilege of serving with the Senator from Illinois on the Committee on Fi- nance. I have never known a man whom I have enjoyed associating with to a greater degree than the able and distin- guished Senator from Illinois. Mr. DOUGLAS. I thank the Senator. I want to rise to a matter of personal privilege concerning the Senator from Virginia [Mr. ROBERTSON]. Mr. TALMADGE. Mr. President, I shall be delighted to yield if the Senator from Illinois desires me to do so. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that I may yield to the Senator from Illinois for a personal statement, without it af- fecting my rights to the floor in any way whatsoever, and without my subsequent remarks constituting a second speech. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered. (Mr. DOUGLAS made a personal state- ment, which will be found elsewhere, under an appropriate heading.) Mr. TALMADGE. I return to my dis- cussion of the history of jury trials in England: 2, Fox himself was responsible for the we- tension of the scope of jury trials in libel cases. Since the libel laws represented the principal restrictions upon freedom of speech In England, it had been customary for the judge In a libel case to decide himself wheth- er a given publication was a libel and leave to the jury only the question of whether the accused had actually been responsible for its publication. Juries resented their inability to answer what usually was the most con- troversial question of the case, and in the case of the Dean of St. Asaph the jurors de- liberately declared a man innocent of publi- cation simply because they did not consider the material libelous. In 1792 Fox was re- sponsible for a new libel law which extended the power of juries to decide the whole ques- tion, as to law as well as fact. In principle, it was a victory for democracy and trial by jury, although in practice the juries tended to be less tolerant in their interpretations of libel than the judges had been. IL TRIAL BY JURY IN MODERN ENGLAND Since the beginning of the 19th century, there has been no threat to the right of trial by jury in criminal cases. The grand or in- dicting jury was eliminated in some instances by the 1873 Judicature Act and almost entire- ly abolished by the 1933 Administration of Justice Act. In civil cases Jury trial was no longer considered necessary as a rule, so that today less than 10 percent of civil cases in England are tried by jury. These changes, which came about during the 19th and 20th century judicial reforms, were made in the interests of economy, efficiency, and equity for all. On the whole, they have accom- plished their purpose and have not been criticized. But the growth of so-called ad- ministrative law, that is, of legal decisions made by various boards or commissions upon disputes to which they themselves are a party. like income tax, community planning, and education, has led to widespread demands for a comprehensive administrative code, with more provision for appeals, and perhaps even some juries. Although nothing has yet been done, it is clear that the absence of jury trials In this ever-inceasing area poses many threats to property, if not actually to life and liberty. Y. TRIAL BY JURY IN colonist AMRIGCA Although the same conditions on the whole held in colonial America as in 18th century England with respect to the admin- istration of justice and trial by jury, the attitude of the colonists was from the first different. Being in no position to fear feudal exactions or exploitations, the colonists looked upon the King not as their protector but rather as himself the potential aggressor upon their rights. It was in this spirit that they protested every effort to limit trial by jury as an act of royal tyranny. I. In 1696 Parliament had reorganized the admiralty courts ?0 that they would be bet- ter able to cope with the flagrant smuggling in and out of all the colonies which was the American reaction to the navigation acts. The admiralty courts, which were not a part of the traditional common law sys- tem, did not provide for trial by jury, and as a result English or English-appointed judges frequently sentenced colonial mer- chants and seamen arbitrarily. The more effective the courts became, the more the colonists resented them, and the more they came to insist upon trial by jury as a fun- damental right. Another way of putting this is that the more abusive and tyrannical the Ad- miralty Courts became, the more men rieRired the right to live and work in free- dom. They felt the wrath of the Eng- lish judges whose primary aim was to keep them under the heavy thumb of English rule. Without trial by jury. Persons accused of crimes against the Crown were tried powerless and at the mercy of a single judge who was the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the one who sentenced the defendant, all at the same time. I would point out that in the so-called civil rights bill which is pending before the Senate, we have 55 pages, 11 differ- ent titles affecting every area of human relations from the cradle to the grave. The bill purports to regulate every hotel In America, every motel in America, every cafe in America, every hamburger stand in America, every hotdog stand in America, a high percentage of the barbershops in America, a high percent- age of the shoeshine shops in America, and every place of business that has 25 or more employees. It would extend the broad Power of the Government of the United States into the most intimate of human rela- tions. The bill would deny the right of a trial by jury. It would authorize the Attorney General to tile suits at will against virtually any citizen in America in the name of the U.S. Government, at the expense of the taxpayers. And it would further authorize the Attorney General to select the judges before whom he would prosecute the case. And it would deny to the defendant the right of a trial by Jury. Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Mr. TALMADGE. I yield. Mr. STENNLS. Mr. President, I am impressed with the enumeration of the things that the bill would do. I ask the Senator if it is not always true through- out the history of our Government that once power?ordinarily reposed in the people or the State?is picked up, so to speak, by the Federal Government through the far-reaching operations of a bill, brought to Washington, made a Federal function, a bureau is set up, peo- ple are employed to implement those bu- reaus, agencies, and activities that they have all over the Nation, is it not in- variably true that that power grows and grows through successive legislative en- actments, or by custom, and that it feeds on itself and never is returned to the people, or to the States? Has that been true in legislative history? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is so correct. I do not recall any government, wherever It may be located, municipal, State, or Federal, that has ever volun- tarily relinquished any power that has ever been delegated to it. That is par- ticularly true of the Federal Govern- ment. The Senator knows that Con- gress has on a number of occasions passed acts that were supposed to be temporary in their nature and in their scope. Those acts have a way of being extended and extended year after year. For instance, as the Senator knows, the so-called excise taxes were imposed dur- ing the war years to raise money with which to fight the war and to prevent inflation. Yet, a high percentage of those same excise taxes have been re- newed year after year. They expire on June 30 this year. Congress will no doubt have the burden of extending them again. I am sure that that action will be recommended. The Senator knows that several years ago the so-called Civil Rights Commis- sion was created. It was said to be purely temporary in scope. It has been ex- tended twice, I believe, since that time. And this bill now, I believe, would make it permanent, or it started out to make it permanent. I am sure the Senator has read, as I have, several of the fine books written by Dr. Northport Parkinson, in which he illustrates the theory of government that If you create a bureau with two em- ployees, the two employees will insist that their powers, their duties, their re- sponsibilties, and their salaries be in- creased. What started out to be a bu- reau with two employees, in the due course of time will be several thousand employees. During the war years, the Senator from Georgia had the privilege of serv- ing as flag secretary and aide to the commandant of naval forces for a time In New Zealand. We were directly under Admiral Halsey's command. We re- ceived a secret dispatch requesting us to make recommendations as to what per- sonnel could be released in New Zea- land for duty in combat areas in forward stations. By that time, Guadalcanal had been secured. We were winning victories at sea almost daily. General MacArthur was advancing with his arm- ies in New Guinea. And New Zealand at that time was truly a remote station. The principal service that it rendered was for rest, relief, and recreation for combat forces in the area, and also for food sup- plies, and things of that nature for the forces that were fighting in the Pacific. The commodore sent for me when he received that dispatch. Be said, "TAL- MADGE, I wish you would work on this Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 1964 and See what we Can -de out Making officers_ and men available forforward duty."', 'the Benator _from Georgia at - that time -wag an -bfficer- in the Naval Rennie. Andlie realized thelmportance of the ao,t-i-f-ii-6.1-lialla-e-eli-'661dried hum by the conmianding officer. I worked On it day and night for about -I _conferred with various de- / partinent heads. - I conferred with some of the: New Zealand authorities. I -worked_ out a plan where we could ef- fectively demobilize about 75 or 85 per- cent of the nayai nnclInillitaty, personnel in New Zealand: When-t Worked out the plan, I brought it to the executive officer toobtain his apProVid.. He studied it and said, "TALMADGE, that is 'fine." And he initialed his approval on it and said, "Take it to the commodore?' I took it to the commodore. He looked it over and said be thought it Was all - right: Biit then he Said; "TAI.MADGE, I want to: talk With the pliblic relations officer p,nd.With'theIegal Officer about this. Hp kept it in his basket Until he could confer With those: two "individ- uals. About that time, the senator from Georgia received his orders to &eine back for assignment to &di it another sta- tion. rlis assignment was asthe execu- tive officer on the attack transport, APA-91., ? :After our ship was commissioned and We returned to the South Pacific, I ran Into some Of My associates 'with wham I had Served in Nev 'Zealand. Said to them, "By the way, whatever happened ? to the dispatch Admiral Halsey sent to the commodore, about making person- nel available for forward diitYrr They said, "Well, after he got through taliciniv!Tkh:Oe lega. office andtheh" TIC o e ns officer, they ''ea eit; ? could no spare anYlperSonnelei in - _Zealand, and that they'n' eeded- additiOneawl P7sorifiel, instead Of Making some they already had available for forward sta- tions.a U. combat areas."" saRI "What hapPened when recelY6_41int Word10' ' lie "Shifriiiecl-ab 'Per- fell Swoop naSn9 folks .nift'-erth94 -PPII*Jf .sttiCL: ere, in one forward. siatiodo-signecit:hoern :t. I refer to thatf:a duty in incidentthe ? that unless an ironhand is used e in -situations of MS rilents tend to'grO' uthorUy Is cernmani teeanuseelY get good jobs, get promotions,is ac hi; That particularly are giVen adminis rat ve charge and obtain seniority rights and retirement benefits; and the lust fOr-Offi"Ce arid for ? power' is - Sikh that they COD:thine to Bern in such capacities and their power grows -arid grows. =Thatdevelepmerebears out what Lord Acton said about the, corruptionwhich Cones _`froin absolute,_?_pqwer. He, said "absolute power corrupts absOlutelY..4 I ' think that itrite in eonneotion 'With this bill, too?that such powerWOuld"corriipt absolutely. - ;Mr, thank the Senator ? f'roniGeorOia. He has even a fine Illus- tration from practical life. Approved For Rele 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R0OW00140015-7 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-- SENATE I believe he was Governor of Georgia longer than any other Governor of his State: Mr. TALMADGE. I thank the Sena- tor from Mississippi; but one of the Gov- ernors of my State served in that posi- tion longer than I did; Joseph E. Brown served as Governor of Georgia from 1860 to 1868. That was in the period of the War Between the States and immediately thereafter. I do not know whether he was elected following 1865, or whether he just obtained the office by appointment by some occupying Yankee general. I had the honor to serve as Governor for some 6 years and 2 months; and I considered it a great compliment and honor to serve my people. Mr. STENNIS. The Senator from Georgia served them very well. During the time he was Governor of the great State of Georgia, did the Fed- eral Government return to his State any of the power the Federal Government had taken away from it? Mr. TALMADGE. No. On the con- trary, the Federal Government made re- peated and incessant demands for more and more power. As a matter of fact, while I was a member of the Governors' conference, we established a commission to study Federal-State relations, with a view to trying to cede back to the State governments some of the power the Fed- eral Government had taken from them, and particularly to try to outline some method of taxation whereby the States and the Federal Government would not be taxing the same things?because, as the Senator from Mississippi knows, in -the income tax field, for example, prior to our recent tax reduction, the individ- ual income tax rates under the Federal law went as high as 92 percent. When State income taxes were imposed in ad- dition to the 92-percent tax the Federal Government imposed, the result was a virtually impossible situation. In fact, the Federal Government would milk the tax cow dry before the State governments had an opportunity to impose their taxes. But we were never able to do anything in that field, because, as the Senator from Mississippi knows, the expansion of Federal power is such that it in- creases year after year. In the short period of time that I have served in the Senate?I came here in 1957?the Federal budget has in- creased, if my memory serves me cor- rectly, from approximately $60 billion a year In 1957 to approximately $100 billion a year at the present time. That is the way it grows year after year. But to answer the Senator: If any Of these provisions were enacted into law, the only way they could ever be changed would be by revolution. Of course I think that if some of these provisions were written into law, we would well nigh have a revolution in some of the areas of our country, because the people_ would be bitterly dthappointed. They have been told repeatedly that this bill is a kind of "do good' bill to give every- one his rights. I aril sure the Senator from Mississippi agrees with me that 11379 every citizen is entitled to have, and should have, his constitutional rights. 'Mr. STENNIS. Absolutely. Mr. TALMADGE. But, as the able Senator from Mississippi also knows, they are adequately enforceable in the courts at the present time, if any are denied their rights. This bill would do nothing except expand Federal power; it would delegate additional authority to Federal officials, to permit them to harass and annoy citizens in every area of their private life. The bill is not a civil rights bill; Tit is a bill to regulate the 190 million Americans. Mr. STENNIS. The Senator from Georgia has stated the matter very well. In connection with his statement that this trend will continue unless it is stopped by the people, let me recount, before I ask a question, I wish to do this to refresh the Senator's recollection in regard to some of the actions taken by the people in the last few months, al- though I am sure the Senator from Georgia will recall this?that in the State of Washington two elections were held with reference to proposed city ordinances relating to civil rights and the regulation of the people. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes; I am sure the Senator from Mississippi is referring to proposed ordinances of the city of Ta- coma, Wash., and the city of Seattle, Wash. Mr. STENNIS. That is correct. One of those proposals was defeated by a vote of 2 to 1; the other was defeated by a vote of 3 to 1. Mr. TALMADGE. Yes. The pro- posed ordinance in Seattle was defeated by a vote of 2 to 1; and the proposed ordinance in the city of Tacoma, Wash., was defeated by a vote of 3 to 1. They were in regard to the subject matter of title II of the pending bill, and only that title; they did not relate to the subject matters dealt with in the other 10 titles of the bill. Mr. STENNIS. There was also a vote in the House of Representatives of the State of Rhode Island; was there not? Mr. TALMADGE. Yes; the House of Representatives of the State of Rhode Island also defeated what would be the equivalent of title II of this bill. Mr. STENNIS. The House of Repre- sentatives of the State of Rhode Island defeated it by a vote of approximately 2 to 1; did it not? Mr. TALMADGE. Yes; approximately 2 to 1. I believe the distinguished Sena- tor from Rhode Island confirmed that on the floer of the Senate; and it is in the RECORD. Mr. STENN1$: There were also two elections?one in New York and one in Massachusetts?on the question of bus- ing children. Such a provision was at one time included in the bill. ? In the elec- tions to which I have reference, the trust- es there who stood against busing the ehildren from one part of the city to an- other were reelected by overwhelming votes; were they not? Mr. TALMADGE. yes. As I recall, the lady in Massachusetts who was a Approved For Releate 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R000200140 001144 ogiak Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 11380 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 10 member of the school board, and who vigorously opposed the busing of school- children, led the ticket in that election. Mr. STENNIS. Yes. Of course, we recall, too, the more re- cent votes taken when the matter of hav- ing the States have control over these questions was the sole issue raised by Governor Wallace, who went a thousand miles from his home State to an area where he was a stranger?Wisconsin, an area far removed from his home State. In Wisconsin, he was without a political ally of any kind; and, as the record shows, he was without a personal friend there, unless it happened that he had two or three friends there. Nevertheless, he received a sizable proportion of the total vote cast there, to the amazement of the People of his home State. He achieved that result in the face of the severest kind of opposition, both politi- cal and otherwise; did he not? Mr. TALMADGE. Yes; I agree with the Senator from Mississippi. In my judgement, the 43 percent of the total vote in Maryland that Governor Wallace received was cast for him solely because of a grassroots citizens revolt against legislation of the type now be- fore us, and also because of the rabid conduct of some citizens who were de- priving other citizens of their rights, by lying on the streets or lying on the side- walks, ' and blocking doors, blocking driveways, and so forth. Mr. STENNIS. Yes; and that situa- tion in Maryland, as well as in the other States in which elections have recently been held, shows unmistakably that this stranger, who received such a large vote, received it because the people of these States do not like the idea of being regu- lated and controlled by the Federal Gov- ernment, instead of by their State gov- ernments, and do not like the attempts to have all the power taken from the States and lodged in bureaucrats in Washington, D.C. Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator from Mississippi is eminently correct. I am sure that the Senator from Mississippi is familiar with the effort to enforce the prohibition laws. The Senator will re- call that there was a great moral crusade throughout the country to stop people from drinking whiskey. Of course, drinking whiskey is an evil. I am sure the Senator from Mississippi will agree with that. Mr. STENNIS. Yes. Mr. TALMADGE. But our experience has been that it could not be regulated by law. Notwithstanding that fact, preachers and many fine citizens insisted that a national prohibition law be passed. The 18th amendment was written into the Constitution of the United States. I remember that when I was a small boy down in Telfair County, Ga., we em- ployed a county policeman to assist the sheriff in enforcing the prohibition laws. There was one county policeman who had shot down nine people whom he had apprehended making whiskey back in the remote swamp areas. The method that he used to enforce the prohibition laws would be to arm himself with at least two pistols, at least one rifle, and a sawed off shotgun. He would find a man mak- ing illegal whiskey somewhere and he would draw his rifle and shoot him down just as if he were hunting deer or other game. That was the type of enforcement that was carried on. The people rebelled. They demanded that the 18th amendment be repealed, which was done in 1933. My judgment is that if the type of leg- islation which is proposed is written on the statute books, the reaction will be far mare violent than was the reaction to the 18th amendment, because the pro- posed legislation does not purport to reg- ulate merely what a man drinks, but also where he lives, where he eats, where he sleeps, where he works, and every other area of human conduct. The strong arm of the Federal Government would be brought in to make decisions that nor- mally have been left to the private indi- vidual and each man's good judgment and good sense. Mr. STENNIS. In the opinion of the Senator from Mississippi, it is not known to the people generally that the bill would actually empower the Federal Government, through its agencies, to go out from Washington and invade the premises of people. Agents of the Gov- ernment could even invade the home of a lady who had as many as six roomers. The bill would regulate whom she could take into her house and whom she could feed. It would regulate whom she could permit to sleep there. As the Senator has said, the bill would actually empower all such actions as the Senator has enu- merated, would it not? Mr. TALMADGE. Of course it would. Mr. STENNIS. It would give the power to the Attorney General and then make it his duty to carry out those pro- visions of the bill. Mr. TALMADGE. The bill would au- thorize the Attorney General of the United States to say to any widow in America who had a house with six rooms, some of which she rented to boarders, whom she shall have sleep in her own house. point out to the able Senator from Mississippi that the third amendment provides that the Government cannot even quarter troops in private homes in time of war without a special act of Con- gress, and at no time in time of peace. It is inconceivable to the Senator from Georgia that our Founding Fathers, who framed the Constitution, should say that troops could not be quartered in private homes, and yet we would now turn that around and, under the provisions of a bill which is now brought before the Sen- ate, authorize the Attorney General to quarter private citizens in private homes and jail the widow without the right Of trial by jury if she refused. Mr. STENNIS. The Senator has not overstated in the least the purpose of the bill and the power that would flow from it. Under the provisions of the bill as it is now written, an agent of the Gov- ernment coud enter a little business, a small factory, or a store, if it had 25 or more employees, and tell the proprietor whom he might employ, whom he might discharge, and even whom he might pro- mote in operating that private business. Is that not true? Mr. TALMADGE. That is true. The Senator from Mississippi did not cover it all. The _ agents could assign jobs within a business. They could determine whom the employer could hire and pro- mote. They could determine whom the employer could assign to various jobs in the business, and whom he could dis- charge. The bill would affect every area of employment in businesses having 25 or more employees, and it would divest the employer of his free right to employ whomever he saw fit to employ, and to decide who could best assist in the opera- tion of his business. It would deprive the prospective employee of the right to choose his own associates and decide where he wanted to work. It would deny the rights of labor unions to make col- lective bargaining agreements and to have their own business agent fill jobs when vacancies arose. Imagine a situation involving a small business in which 25 people might be employed. Suppose a vacancy arose in that business and five people applied for the job. Suppose, further, that one of the applicants was Chinese, another was Japanese, still another was a Baptist, one a Jew and one a Negro. One of those people would have to be employed. If the manager of such a business employed one of them, he would be letting himself in for a lawsuit brought by any of the other four, because everyone of them would have a right to contend that he had been discriminated against under the terms of the bill. Such action would au- thorize the Attorney General to file suit against the proprietor, and the business- man could be put in jail without the right of a jury trial for discriminating against someone. One hundred mindreaders would be required to determine whether or not the employer had discriminated against anyone, because no one but the man who hired the successful applicant would know what his motivation was in employing any particular individual. Mr. STENNIS. And in all of that proc- ess, what the owner of the business might think was best for his business? Mr. TALMADGE. He would not have anything to do with it. Mr. STENNIS. He would be lost in the shuffle. Mr. TALMADGE. The Government would take charge. The owner of the business, the employer, would be merely a bystander, hoping that he would not be run over by the Government in the proc- ess. Mr. STENNIS. Before the Senator concludes his speech, since he is the au- thor of the pending amendment, which would guarantee the right of trial by jury to anyone who might be charged with criminal contempt in connection with the enforcement of the proposed legislation, I wish to ask him one partic- ular question with reference to his amendment. The argument is often made against the Senator's amendment that the court must have ample power to require obedience to its writs, its sum- monses, its mandates, and its orders. Did not the Senator, amply provide full protection to every court under all those Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7 Approved For ReSlope 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66B00403R0W0140015-7 .196.4 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ?SENATE 11381 circumstances when he, wrote into his aniendment the- follawhIg language :which I shall read in order ?11) make the point clear in the REcoap and .also to call it to the, attention of the Senate? I. read from page_ 3 of the Senator's amendment _ No. 513, beginning at 17: ;This iection'sball not apply to contempts committed hI the presence of the court, or so near thereto as to obstruct the_atiministra- thin of justice, nor to the misbehavior, mis- conduct, or disnheiAielicP o a.U. 9fflor of the court in respect tO Wirth, orders, or pro- cess a the 0xt, , -Nor sh1i 'anything herein or in any other provision Oi law be construed to deprive courts of their by civil contempt pro- needings,_ without a jury, to secure compli- ance With or, to prevent obstruction of, as distinguished -"Forn. punishment for viola- ons o!, nny u writ, in?Odess, Ot? ef,ru e, decree, or command of the court in accord- ance Wit 4 the PreVailing usages"of law and , , equity, Including the power of detention. , , . That Is the Senator's language. Will the Senator explain that provision of his amendment in his own fine, and clear Way so that Senators may know what it is _and_ what the intentions of_ the Senator were, and so that the provisions 111.:14,y be nfimistalably and clearly known so that -there can be no question about thein? I understand that is settled law. Will the Senator answer-that inquiry? - Mr. TALN14_12P, Thp Sena from MississiPPi is ellitrientlY correct. ITIP is a cosponsor of the amendment, and was a distinguished jurist before he came to 'the U.S. Senate, as well as a distinguished 'lawyer. So he is completely aware of -the powers of courts of equity. There is a distinction between civil contempt and criminal contempt. _ When a judge orders something to be done, if the individual dOes_not carry out his order,, it is within the power of the court to imprison him or take such action as is necessary to compel the defendant to comply with the order of the court. That is known as Clyi,1 991*-111P.t., "Me most comp-ion practice, of course, arises in situations in which a judge orders the defendant imprisoned until he carries Out the order of the judge. The defendant would remain in prison until he executed the order of the court. When he ,e x e cute d the order Pf the, Mixt, he would be released from prison, a free man. Heco,ulc be detained in jail as long as tPe judge thoug1-4 necessary to ,insnre _compliance with his particular Order. -Criminal contempt is entirely different. _contempt is a judge-ordained, Judge-made, judge-prosecuted, and Judge-exeouted ernne. occurz when a Judge hauls a man up before him and says, "You disobeyed rny_court order, I 0..,m going_ to put you in jail for 2 years." He is _put in prison. 'h judge can im- pose such sentence as he sees fit, so long AS it does, not yialatc,Ibe,eightn amend- whictl_Prol-44413, eriletand unusual 451.1.11ish.111,ept. As theable Senator knows, the Consti- _ tution of, the UDited .8tfitS$ guarantees the,rightof trial by jury in four different places for_all crimes, The language does not read "some crimes," or "big crimes," or 4144rpaetliale _crimes," It says "all crimes." ,Critninal ,contenikt, is a crime defined by a judge to be a crime. A judge can put a man in jail for criminal contempt. The prisoner can have a prison record for the remainder of his life. A judge can /mpose a line. He can dispossess a defendant of /As worldly goods. In my judgment, it is within the mean- ing of the Constitution that, if a person can be tried for a crime, he should have the right of trial by jury. The Senate, by a vote of 51 to 42 in 1957, sustained that same amendment, paragraph for paragraph, line for line, word for word. The late President John F. Kennedy was one of its sponsors. Our distin- guished majority leader [Mr. MANS- FIELD], who now sits in the chair in front of the distinguished Senator from Mis- sissippi, was one of the sponsors. The then majority leader of the Senate, Lyn- don B. Johnson, now President of the United States, vigorously supported it and made the concluding speech for it. it was good law then. It was good sense then. It is good law now. It is good sense now. I hope the Senate will uphold the greatest civil liberty mankind has ever known, which is the right of trial by a jury of one's peers. It is a travesty indeed that the Senate ,should even be considering a so-called zivil rights bill which in five different .titles would deny the people the right of trial by jury. It is unthinkable to the Senator from Georgia that in this en- lightened day, we should turn the clock back to star chamber trials, trial by in- quisition and torture, as once practiced in England, as the Senator from Georgia has said this afternoon. ,Mr. STENNIS. Would this bill not deny the greatest civil right that has de- veloped under our system, namely, the right of trial by jury in criminal cases? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is en- tirely correct. As the great Winston Churchill said, the right of trial by jury is the difference between freedom and slavery. And it is. ? Mr. STENNIS. The Senator's amend- .ment would not restrict the court in any way in its power to demand the carry- ing out of its commands and orders and the power to keep a man in jail until he obeys. No jury trial is involved in such cases, and the power of the court is plenary, Is that correct? Mr. TALMADGE. The Senator is en- tirely correct. ,Mr. STENNIS. I thank the Senator .for yielding. He is making a fine pres- entation. Mr. TALMADGE. I thank the Sen- ator for his penetrating questions, which will shed light on the issue before the Senate at the present time. Mr. President, I have attempted this afternoon to trace some of the history of the right of trial by jury. Freedom did not blossom overnight. Its growth has been a long and tortuous struggle. I have recited this afternoon some of the problems the people had in England, leading up to the Magna Carta, and to some of the problems that led to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. After the struggle of thousands of years to obtain liberty, I hope the Senate will not now say that the need for liberty has passed; that we are about to vest all the power in a Federal judge, appointed for life, to say that he does not need a jury, that he knows best, that he and the At- torney General can handle all our prob- lems. I hope it will not be said, "Let us strike down Magna Carta. Let us strike down Thomas Jefferson's Declara- tion of Independence. Let us strike . down the Constitution of the United States. Let us now vest this power in a Federal judge, appointed for life. He and a wise Attorney General can handle the problems of the people better than all the great leaders in human history, who sacrificed their nations and the blood of patriots for hundreds of years to achieve the greatest human right that of mankind has ever achieved?the right trial by jury." THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL AND SOUTH DAKOTA Mr. McGOVERN. Mr. President, con- gressional mail is sometimes a valuable indication of the depth of feeling on na- tional issues of the people we represent In the Congress. No issue in recent years has called forth the volume of mail that now de- scends on Washington both praising and condemning the civil rights bill. I would not claim to speak for other States, but the mail from South Dakota has been running 21/2 to 1 in favor of the bill. Furthermore, the proportion of favorable mail has been increasing steadily in recent weeks. Considering the natural tendency of people to write when they oppose a measure and remain silent when they are in favor, I consider this an over- whelming endorsement of the civil rights bill by the people of my State. Those who favor the bill seem to be motivated primarily by religious or moral conviction. Those who fear the consequences of passage of the civil rights bill very often are misinformed about the contents of the bill. They have often been misled by organized propaganda efforts. Through newspaper advertisements and circulars the opponents of the bill have created a picture of a monstrous Federal power eagerly awaiting the chance to swoop down on the hapless citizen and snatch away his rights. As a matter of fact, the civil rights bill now before the Senate would have very little impact in South Dakota, for two very good reasons: First. The number of Negroes in South Dakota is small. Discrimination against our Indian minority has long since been widely condemned and State action taken to eliminate its remnants. Second. South Dakota already has a law on the books covering the most sen- sitive portion of the proposed civil rights bill?the right of all persons, regardless of race, to free access to public accommo- dation. The South Dakota law is far more sweeping than the bill before Con- gress and provides much stiffer penalties for violations. The South Dakota law has not brought disaster to the State? Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP651300403R000200140015-7 Approv ctliNor Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66a403R000200140015-7 11382 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE May 22 -31, ? indeed, I would venture to guess that most people in the State are totally un- aware of its existence. Neither would the civil rights bill now before Congress create any serious difficulty. ? Chapter 58 of the 1963 Sessions Laws of South Dakota states: No person shall be excluded on account of race, color, religion, or national origin from full and equal enjoyment of any accommo- dation, advantage, or privilege furnished by public conveyances, theaters, or other pub- lic places of amusement, or by hotels, mo- tels, barbershops, saloons, restaurants, or other places of refreshment, entertainment, or accommodation. The South Dakota law covers many places that are excluded from coverage under the Federal bill, such as barber- shops, bowling alleys, and small motels. Moreover, while the Federal bill provides only civil remedies in the form of in- junctive relief, the South Dakota statute is enforcible by criminal sanctions, with fines up to $200. I would like to go through the pro- posed Federal civil rights bill title by title to demonstrate the constructive and restrained character of the legislation, and to quiet the unjustified fears held by some people in my State and across the Nation: Title I of the Federal bill deals with voting rights and eliminates the oppor- tunities that now exist in some States for discrimination in voting. South Da- kota has no literacy test for voting and in fact there has never been any indica- tion of discriminatory voting practices in the State. Therefore, title I would have no impact in South Dakota. Title II would prevent discrimination In certain places of public accommoda- tion. Since South Dakota already has a law far broader than the proposed Fed- eral statute, and since the South Dakota law would take precedence in all cases, title II would not have any effect in South Dakota. Title III provides new tools by which the Attorney General can prevent dis- criminatory treatment at facilities owned by State and local governments, such as public parks, libraries, and municipal golf courses. Since there are no known in- stances in South Dakota in which use of publicly owned or operated facilities has been denied because of race, color, or re- ligion, title III would have no meaning- ful application in our State. Title IV provides new tools for elim- inating unconstitutional segregation in veterans' pensions, FHA or VA mortgage insurance or guarantee programs. or Federal insurance of bank and savings t and loan deposits. Since there Is no c known discrimination in federally as- sisted programs in South Dakota, title VI would have no effect in South Dakota. t Title VH seeks to eliminate discrim- ination in employment because of race or color. It would create a Federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission with power only to seek voluntary com- pliance with its orders. Court suits could be filed only after voluntary efforts failed. The Federal Civil Rights Com- mission has found virtually no instances of employment discrimination against Negroes in South Dakota. It has found evidence of some discrimination against Indians. but the State commission on Indian affairs has been working on this problem for some time. Since South Dakota is already taking action to elim- inate what little employment discrimina- tion exists in the State, title VII will have very little practical effect in South Da- kota. Titles VIII, DK, X, and XI of the civil rights bill are procedural only. They re- late to the compiling of statistics on vot- ing registration, to the removal of civil rights cases from State to Federal courts, to the establishing of a Community Rela- tions Service, to help solve racial dis- putes on a voluntary basis, and to the express provision that State laws shall take precedence when they cover a par- ticular situation. This is all there is to the civil rights bill. The horrendous powers claimed for It by its opponents simply do not exist. The bill does not affect homes or apartments or small boarding houses. The bill does not take away anyone's right to jury trial. To the extent it deals with jury trial at all, the bill gives a right to jury trial where it would not other- wise exist. The bill does not tell businessmen that they must serve, or hire or fire any par- ticular individual: retailers remain wholly free to refuse to serve the drunk, the disorderly, the unkempt, and so forth, and employers remain wholly free to hire, fire, and promote on the basis of ability and qualifications. All that is -prohibited is discrimination on grounds of race, religion, or national origin. The bill does not cover all retailers. It applies only to certain designated places?hotels, motels, restaurants, lunch counters, gasoline stations, movie The bill does not give the Attorney General any unusual powers; he is au- horized merely to sue in the Federal cants to enforce constitutional and other basic rights. The bill does not give great powers to he Federal Government?in every in- stance, first reliance is placed on State and local authorities to deal with illegal discriminatory practices. In short, all the bill actually does do, even in areas in which discrimination is most prevalent, is to try to assure for all of our citizens the rights and opportuni- ties which most of us take for granted. Why is this legislation necessary? Be- cause in this country we believe that every man is entitled to the same oppor- tunities, the same rights, and the same privileges that are accorded each of his fellow Americans. For many Negro citi- zens today this is not the case. It is still true that a Negro cannot always choose his hotel and restaurant the way a white person can, he cannot always go to the church he would like to attend, or send his children to the schools he would like to see them attend, or live where he would like to live, or get a job when he is qualified for that job. White persons have these rights, and unless we grant them to our Negro citizens also, this Na- tion cannot in good conscience call itself free and democratic, In South Dakota, thanks to the good will of the vast majority of its citizens, instances of discrimination are rare. Some problems still exist regarding our Indian citizens, but steps are being taken, with the overwhelming support of South Dakotans. to solve them. The civil rights law will not be the final answer to problems in this country. The treatment of our fellow citizens is primarily a moral question, and years of education and soul searching remain be- fore this Nation is truly a land of oppor- tunity for all, regardless of race. But the passage of this law will give us new tools with which to pursue our goal of equal dignity for all men. We have delayed too long already. Let us delay no longer. public schools. Since there is no uncon- theaters, concert, halls, and the like?all stitutional segregation in South Dakota public commercial establishments which schools, title IV would not be relevant are established to serve, and invite the In South Dakota. patronage of, the general public. Title V would extend the life of the The bill does not cover private clubs, Federal Civil Rights Commission for an- professions, or service establishments. other 4 years. This Commission has no The practice of doctors, lawyers, and enforcement powers but is simply an in- realtors is not affeced by the bill. formation-gathering organization. Title The bill does not create any hiring V will therefore have no specific applica- quotas, tion within South Dakota. The bill does not affect union seniority. Title VI wculd withhold Federal funds The bill does not require the firing of from programs which are segregated. whites in order to hire Negroes. Agricultural subsidies and other farm The bill does not affect social security benefits would not be subject to tertnina- or veterans' pensions or bank deposit in- tion because of any discriminatory em- suranee. ployment practices by farmers. Neither The bill does not permit massive or would the law affect social security or wholesale cutoffs of Federal assistance. VISIT TO THE SENATE BY THE MELLO-MACS OF PORTLAND, OREG. Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, today the Oregon delegation of Congress is being visited by a group of wonderful song- stem from Portland, Oreg., known as the Mello-Macs. It is a wonderful chorus from the Multnomah Athletic Club un- der the direction and leadership of one of our outstanding song directors in the Northwest, Bruce Kelly. During the noon period this group of 60 lovely wom- en singers presented a program at the rotunda of the Old Senate Office Build- ing. I wish to say in behalf of the Ore- gon delegation that we have always been very proud of our State, but today the Mello-Macs made us boastfully proud, for they presented a concert that was enjoyed by all of those who were fortu- nate enough to be privileged to hear it. Mr. President, they sang yesterday and the day before at the World's Fair. They also sang at the State Depart- Approved For Release 2005/02/10 : CIA-RDP66600403R000200140015-7