CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP75-00149R000700140035-5
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: December 16, 2016
• Document Release Date: December 10, 2004
• Sequence Number: 35
• Publication Date: May 16, 1966
• Content Type: OPEN

CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
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. 966
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
Mr. &USFT.T. of Georgic? Mr. Presi-
dent, recently there has been a spate of
er g"".. news, ..articles and editorials
relanve to the relationship of the Senate
Committee on Armed Services to the Cen-
tral Intelligence Agency. Ordinarily, I
do not like to discuss in the Senate the
operations of the Central Intelligence
Agency or its relationship with the
Armed Services Committee. Discussion
of the operations of the Central Intelli-
gence Agency affects sources of informa-
tion that are available to the CIA. In
the very nature of things, these sources
of information are very sensitive and
easily disturbed. For that reason, I have
not discussed this subject, despite the
fact that some of our most eminent news-
papers have made completely erroneous
charges that were meant to mislead and
deceive Members of Congress who are not
familiar with the operations of the com-
mittees with regard to the Central Intel-
ligence Agency.
There is a general rule, Mr. President,
that the legislative oversight of any
agency of Government is vested in the
committee that reports the legislation
that creates that Agency. 'Let me. point
out here and now'that the National Se-
curity Council and the Central Intelll-
gence Agency were created by the Na-
`ontrnued
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tional Security Act of 1947. That legis- posed of the President, the Vice Presi- information that has been received in ex-
which?I am'chairman hasbeen derelict kind of activity anywhere in the world, executive session, from the time the door
.w ...
---- ----
_
Committee on Armed Services, insofar as rotary of State, and the Director of the Confidential Information 14 passes
the
a
in its duty, there is no justification what-
ever for any other committee "muscling
in" on the jurisdiction of the Armed
Services Committee, insofar as it per-
tains to the Central Intelligence Agency.
As for the Appropriations Committee,
a group appointed from the Department
of Defense subcommittee has oversight
over the Central Intelligence Agency.
Every Member of the Senate, of course,-
knows that the appropriations for this
Agency are not Identified by line item for
each activity. If that were done, it could
destroy the usefulness of the Central In-
telligence Agency and could have fatal
results Appropriations for CIA func-
tions are Included In other appropri- ing that this order also relates to the leaks that come out of their hearings.
ations "bills, without separate identifica- ` CIA. Therefore, the ambassador to each Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sen-
tion.
It happens that there was a duplica-
tion in the senior members of the Armed
Services Committee and the senior mem-
bers of the Subcommittee on Defense Ap-
propriations of the Committee on Appro-
priations. For example, the Senator
from Massachusetts [Mr. SALTONSTALLI,
the Senator from Maine [Mrs. SMITH],
the Senator from Mississippi [Mr. STEN-
Subcommittee on Appropriations for the
Department of Defense. It is perhaps
unusual, but as a matter of convenience
for some of the members of the subcom-
mittee, the subcommittee from Defense.
Appropriations and the subcommittee of
the Committee on Armed Services have
met jointly in our examinations of the
Central Intelligence Agency.
At the express request of the Senator
from Arizona [Mr. HAYDEN] I have pre-
sided over those two subcommittees for
the past several years.
Mr. President, the Central Intelligence
Agency occupies a very peculiar position
In our scheme of things. A great many
charges have been made over the years
against the CIA. But regardless of the
nature of the charges, the CIA is not In a
position to answer them. It Is compelled
to stand mute. It matters not the na-
ture of the charge; and heaven knows
that enough charges have been heaped
upon them over the past several years.
It has been charged repeatedly that
the CIA makes foreign policy and that it
takes over foreign policy. That Is as-
serted as, one of the grounds of justifi-
cation for the demand that the Foreign
Relations Committee be permitted to
share supervision over the Agency.
There simply Is not a scintilla of truth
in that charge, and not.a single concrete
case can be+ brought to the attention of
unless such activity has been ordered by is opened the information is in the hands
the National Security Council, which is of the press. I am very proud of the
the overseer within the executive branch fact that there has nevr;r beeu a harmful
for the Central Intelligence Agency. leak out of these subcommittees in all
As a result, the Secretary of State is of the years since the creation of the
privy to all that the Agency undertakes Central Intelligence Agency.
to do. Mr. LAUSCHE. Mr. President, will the
In addition, during the administration Senator yield?
of the late lamented President John F. Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. I yield.
Kennedy, an Executive order was issued Mr. LAUSCHE. Mr. President, the
to all our ambassadors stating that they subcommittee of which the senior Sen-
had control of the activities of all Fed= ator from Georgia is now speaking has
oral agencies within the country to which distinguished itself for the fact tnat there
they were accredited. Accompanying the have not been any leaks. The Commit-
open text in the Federal Register went tee on Foreign Relations has also dis-
country has control over the operations ator from Ohio is a member of the Com-
of the CIA within that country, and he mittee on Foreign Relations and I have
has a right to halt them or to direct them read articles that were written as a re-
as he may see fit. So it is sheer poppy- suit of information that came out of
cock to say that the CIA is making its executive sessions of that committee that
own foreign policy. had to do with some of his actions. I
Mr. President, these charges have gone can understand how he might feel about
so far that an editorial, which I have in
my hand, published in the New York
Mr. HOLLAND. Mr. President, Will
the Senator yield?
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. I yield.
Mr. HOLLAND. Is it not true that
Appropriations ~ Committee. ttee.. which the Committee on Armed Services
There is not the slightest bit of sub- _ has jurisdiction concerns the matter of
stance to that charge. The CIA has no confirmation. of the nomination of the
more to do with selecting the members head of the Central Intelligence Agency?
of this subcommittee than the Armed Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sen-
Services Committee has to do with select- ator is correct. However, that Is handled
ing the editorial staff of the New York before the entire Armed Services Com-
Times-not a particle more. We have mittee.
followed all the rules of seniority very Mr. HOLLAND. It is an Armed Serv-
rigidly in both the Subcommittee on De- Ices Committee jurisdiction.
fense Appropriations and the Armed Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sen-
Services Committee in selecting those ator is correct. We have legislative over-
who would exercise this oversight. sight and it has never been challenged,
Some of the press Insists that the despite the fact that others wish to "horn
Agency has congressional immunity. in" on the committee. The legislative
This editorial is headed "Congressional oversight Is vested in the Armed Services
Immunity." Mr. President, I am familiar Committee under the rules, and that
with the extent of legislative oversight 'cannot be controverted. It is as estab-
exercised by committee. I have been a lished as any action or tradition or oper-
member of the Appropriations Commit- ation of the Senate could possibly be,
tee for more than 30 years, and I know that the legislative oversight is vested
something about the oversight performed' in the Armed Services Committee. -
by the Appropriations Committee. Mr. HOLLAND. Is it not also true
The CIA undoubtedly spends more that, in addition to having jurisdiction
time with its legislative oversight com- over the confirmation of the nomination
mittee than does any other Government of the Director of the Central Intelli-
agency of which I have any knowledge. gence Agency, the Committee on Armed
The subcommittees have "frequent Services also has jurisdiction over the
meetings, and we undertake to keep confirmation of the nomination of the
abreast, as best we can, with the opera- Deputy Director of the Central Intelli-
tions of the CIA and with its budgetary Bence Agency and is regularly exercising
matters. These subjects are handled be- that function?
fore two subcommittees composed of Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sen-
taken to fix or to make foreign policy. four Democrats and three Republicans. ator is correct. That is within our do-
lt cannot possibly do so, from the very The subcommittees meet jointly for, the main.
nature of its structure. Under the Con- purposes of convenience. Mr. HOLLAND. I thought it well for
stitution, the President of the United ? Mr. President, I am exceedingly proud the RECORD to show that the complete
States is responsible for the conduct of that there has never been a security leak exercise of jurisdiction is shown to be
the Nation's foreign policy and he oper- of any of the testimony that has come in the Committee on.Armed Services as
ates in this area through the Secretary before the subcommittees. Every Sen- a whole or in the Legislative Oversight
of State. ator knows something about the efforts Committee that was set up on an in-
The CIA functions under the National that are exerted to get Members of Con- formal basis, as the Senator has dis-
Security council. That Council is com- gress to give information, particularly cussed.
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The PRESIDING OFFICER. The know what military or diplomatic re- where we have served together over the
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. Mr. Presi- that continually arise all over the world. The CIA, we should remember, is an
dent, I ask unanimous consent that I As I mentioned earlier, even the fact important effort in the security of our
may be permitted to continue for an that the subject is discussed on the floor country. That is what it was estab-
additional 5 minutes. of the Senate has a tendency to chill lished for. It is essential for the Presi-
The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- these sources of information. Some of dent to have the sort of information
out objection, the Senator from Georgia these sources might be in the city of which it supplies, have it quietly, and
is recognized for an additional 5 minutes. Washington. The very discussion of the have it from every source that he can
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. Mr. Presi- subject might cause them to close up like get it, in order to make intelligent de-
dent, I will not be able to yield to other a clam for fear that something might cisions.
Senators because of the limited time. happen that would cause a leak that The Senator from Georgia has empha-
I think that one of the principal rea- would identify them and cause them to sized that the CIA does not formulate
sons why there is such a great clamor lose their positions or, worse than that, policy. I cannot state that too
among some segments of the press to . to lose their lives. strongly. It gathers the information on
open the doors of this committee is the ' Mr. President, the same thing is true the basis of which the National Security
fact that we have been able to keep secret with respect to the Federal Bureau of Council does make policy.
the matters that we have discussed and Investigation. The Federal Bureau of The CIA is an outgrowth of the OSS
examined from time to time. Investigation over the years has gone to of World War II. It was established in
press in this country that feels that it, up sources of information-call it coun- to know that because, in the end, f was
and it alone, can properly direct the Gov- terintelligence, if you will-concerning the acting chairman of the conference
ernment of the United States. That what our enemies are doing in this coun- committee that shaped that act.
segment of the press has not been able try in the area of gathering information. Then in 1949, Congress passed a spe-
exactly how to run the country. That not only from Congress but also from the within our Constitution and our laws.
segment actually does exercise a great executive branch of the Government. Now, certainly the CIA has never had
deal more influence over the Govern- Information concerning most of what anything to do with who served on the
ment of the country than the average we are doing can be obtained from the . subcommittee. As the chairman of the
citizen suspects or recognizes. It has magazines and, the newspapers. committee has so well said, membership
kept the pressures going to break into However, securing intelligence in- has been entirely by seniority. I first
these subcommittees and to asperse their formation is an entirely different prob- served on the Armed Services Subcom-
actions, when the critics have no knowl- lem for us. It is a matter of extreme mittee along with the late Senator
charges that they make. _ abroad that a large group of Congress- Under the terms of the Reorganization
connection between the operations of with the Central Intelligence Agency or mittee structure, this CIA effort Is a part
The Committee on Foreign Relations would close up many sources of informa- sponsibility. Certainly we do not wish
with all the more assurance and justi- that it has cost us to keep those agencies sarily wish to interfere with us. What
fication that the actions of the Commit- in operation. We wish to do is to act In the best inter-
tee on Foreign Relations affect the work As a member of the Subcommittee of ests for the security of our country, and
of the Committee on Armed Services, the Armed Services Committee and of that is what I wish to emphasize in the
Forces are largely determined by. our has this duty, I am not in a position to As the Senator has said, the ambassa-
foreign relations. If that is a valid argu- evaluate my own services. dors, by an order of the late Presiddent
should have representation on the Com- time of the Senator has expired, have the opportunity to supervise the
mittee on Foreign Relations. Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. Mr. Pres- work of the CIA. When I traveled
between almost every committee of the may be permitted to continue for 1 adds- have the CIA men in every city that we
Senate, and for that reason the Senate . tional minute., visited discuss their problems with me.
rules and practices vest Loversight re-. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The I was much impressed by the quality of
legislative jurisdiction. - 1 additional minute. the questions with the ambassador.~YVV~
Committee on Foreign Relations seeks dent, I can only say that I have worked out, and that I might add to this dis?
not only to cover the CIA, but also to in- earnestly and conscientiously
and I have cussion, is that under President Eisen.
,
elude the Federal Bureau of Investiga- . had associated with me some of the fin- bower, first, there was established what
jurisdiction of the Committee on the Ju- think that these subcommittees need to group. That was headed by President
observed heretofore. have made to carry out the duties im- in and for physical reasons could not
Intelligence Agency might be doing all received unanimous consent, I believe, to Kennedy and President Johnson.
be created to satisfy curiosity or to dis- The PRESIDING OFFICER. For 5 Pigs, called together this group and asked
seminate information on what the Cen- additional minutes. The Senator from them to do four things: first, to look into
tral Intelligence Agency is doing. Massachusetts is recognized for 8 min- our foreign operations and intelligence;
would have on the sources of information Mr. SALTONSTALL. I shall finish ; TO be a continuing body to advise him;
that have been opened up painstakingly well within that time. and fourth, to be familiar with the CIA
VU 0"PAJto
so that Information may be furnished to chairman of the Armed ServicesACoLm- I know that that group is composed of
the executive branch of our Government, mittee, my very conscientious and thor very substantial citizens, in the fullest
to enable the Commander in Chief to ough-going chairman of that committee, sense of that term. I Inquired just this
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 10126
not tight with his
morning as to their personalities. We all dent to function effectively. I do not fully earned, He 3
know Mr. Clifford, the chairman. There care whether he is a Democrat or Re- own personal funds, but he is tight with
are two leading scientists on the group: publican, as the leader of our country, public funds money in the Appropria-
'Dr. Baker and Dr. Land of the photo- he must establish the policies. tions Committee and the Armed Services
graphic organization. This Is not an instance of congressional Committee; and he knows what he is
The military is represented by, Gen. Interference with the President; It is doing.
Maxwell Taylor, for whom we all have congressional. assistance to the President - I wish to mention another matter.
a very high regard, and Admiral Sides. and his Security Council in building up The Senator from North Dakota [Mr.
The State Department is represented by the defense agencies and the defense of .YOUNG] is a man of few words but in-
the very distinguished former Assistant our country. tense activity. I wish to mention him
Secretary and Ambassador, Robert Mur- Mr. President, perhaps I am preju- especially. Last year it fell my duty for
phy. There is no man in whom I would diced, but I believe we have been trying a short time to be the acting chairman
have more confidence on this sort of to do our job; and I think and I hope of this group. I have never had finer
question. . that the supervision of the Armed Serv- and more effective help than the help rc-
In addition, there are Gordon Gray, a ices Committee on security matters is ceived from the Senator from North Da-
former Assistant Secretary of the Army, 1left where it belongs, in that committee. kota.
Professor Langer of Harvard, who was in Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, are we after year and tmakes hese a IAematters year
the OSS and has always had a special in the morning hour?
competence in intelligence activities, and The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. TY thereto.
Frank Pace, the former Budget Director DINGS in the chair). We are now in the I trust and believe the Senate will
and Secretary of the Army. morning hour. leave this delicate and sensitive matter
-.. _ ....-... r .. ..,...t a..... ~. T think
hen- it presently res+s and net. indulge
w
i
s, ,Jvl . .... 5-__
L eII1p11Hb17,U th
serves as a consulting committee directly the subject matter here has been well ` in an extensive debate thereon; to do so
...L. 1.,. ..1A L.e+n A-+-', the'-fnlnesa of flip
States. What we should wish to do in
this body, as I see it, is to help the Presi-
dent, who must make decisions regarding
our national security in all parts of the
world today, in every possible way we can.
We can help him best if we do it quietly,
if we follow the activities of the CIA In
every way that we believe is helpful, and
give it sufficient funds to do its work.
As the chairman says, if we make pub-
lic these matters in passing upon appro-
priations, if we publish the questions that
we ask the chairman, then the CIA loses
much of its value to the President of the
United States.
Speaking personally, as a member of
these subcommittees, I have had Mr. Al-
len Dulles come to my house, and I have
gone to his house, in the evenings, so we
could have a quiet discussion. I have
done the same with Mr. McCone. Ad-
miral Raborn has been in my house a
number of times.
Last Friday afternoon, I spent a great
part of the afternoon going through the
CIA building and seeing with my own
eyes how some of their activities were be-
Ing conducted.
Under the leadership of our chairman,
the Senator from Georgia, every member
of that group leas the opportunity to ask
all the questions he wishes. . The CIA
gives us the subjects of concern around
the world today, as it does the Foreign
Relations Committee when they ask, and
then we go into every question that we
believe is of value for us to have knowl-
edge of in order to discharge our legisla-
tive responsibilities.
Deliberately we publish no transcripts
as the Senator has said, because of the
security questions involved. We have the
very able chief of staff of the Armed
Services Committee Mr. Darden present
spoken, but merely for emphasis on some Agency that is doing a fine job.
of the points they have made, I wish to Mr? YOUNG of North Dakota. Mr.
say this: President, I rise to support the position
First, if we are to have a general de- taken by the distinguished Senator from
bate here now on the Senate floor, or in Georgia [Mr. RUSSELL] with respect to
the committee rooms, either, on the CIA, the handling of CIA appropriations and
I think it is comparable to the situation reports.
going on in Vietnam, where we are over This is a most difficult assignment,
there fighting their battles, or helping handled, as chairman of a special com-
them fight, and they are carrying on an- mittee, by one of the most able Members
other war among themselves to the rear. of the Senate, who has been on the Com-
I believe it is beyond the capacity of mittee on Appropriations for more than
our form of government to have an ef- 30 years, and who has made an intense
fective CIA, if-it is to be regarded as just study of military affairs, as well as other
an ordinary agency and to be treated as problems related to our national se-
such. I further believe that with our curity.
present arrangement already outlined, I also support the position of the dis-
with the Senator from Georgia [Mr. tinguished Senator from Missouri [Mr.
RUSSELL] as the chairman of this small SYMINGTON] who was the former Secre-
committee, with the Senator from Mas- tary of the Air Force, who has concerned
sachusetts [Mr. SALTONSTALL] and the himself with problems of this nature for
other Members, excepting myself, we years. Also the chairman of the Com-
have the very finest plan that the Sen- mittee on Defense Preparedness [Mr.,
ate could have for handling a serious, STENNIS] and others in support of pres-
delicate, highly sensitive and highly im- ent handling of CIA matters.
portant matter of the most complicated I play a minor role in this committee
nature. but I do appreciate the comments of the
- I 'am pleased that the Senator from Senator from Mississippi [Mr. STENNIS].
Georgia, has brought this matter to the This is a difficult assignment and
attention of the Senate this morning. sometimes I wish I were not on it. One
He has been the most discreet, the most could speak more freely on some sub-
careful, and the most discerning Member jects if he was not on this committee
we have, I believe, in the handling of this 'because far too often people interpret
highly important matter. There have what a Senator on this committee says
been statements in the press and else- as coming from the CIA, which is not the
where talking about the committee case. One has to be very careful what
membership being screened by the CIA. he says on almost any subject Involving
Such charges are ridiculous. foreign affairs where the CIA might be
We know the Senator from Georgia involved.
has served us in many ways in an out-, A year ago last fall I took a trip around
standing manner; but I have never seen the world. Everywhere I traveled, every
him shine quite as brilliantly, or do any CIA agent was given instructions by Mr.
Job in quite as fine a manner than he McCone, then the head of the CIA, to
has done, year after year, in this highly give me a full report on CIA operations
with us at all meetings, and he keeps significant assignment. We had better and to answer all questions. In all the
the continuity for us. But he takes no leave it alone, countries I visited I met usually with the
d
r
b
H
h
CIA
d th
t
assa
an
e am
o
concern.
e head of t
e
notes and we take no notes. Any notes He has had the deepes
that I take for the purpose of asking. has given the most rigid attention and together. I found close cooperation be-
questions, I tear up when we leave. the closest scrutiny and screening to tween the two in every country. The
That is the way we have conducted money activities and to all other phases ambassadors knew what the CIA was
our work, and we have done it thorough- of it. doing, and they operated under the in-
ly-in my opinion as thoroughly as we I can tell the Senate that the money structions of the ambassador. -
can--and have kept it as quiet as we can. the CIA has obtained has to be justified, I can see no need whatever for the
We have done so, as I have said before, fully justified. This is always true when Committe on Foreign Relations having
in an effort to maintain the security of the Senator from. Georgia is concerned. some of its members on a special com-
our country, and the ability of our Presi- Whatever money is gotten from him is mittee looking into the operation of the
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-CONGR; ,531 NAL RECORD - SENATE ----.-May 16, 1966
For
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 May 16, 1966 Approved Fi"&?iIfkk~2AVC bb' ' 9R000700140035-5 10127
CIA. In fact, they could well establish of any member of the Foreign Relations Admiral Raborn said, in answering,
a subcommittee of their standing com- Committee, to reflect upon the Senator that he would give the information to
mittee to handle CIA matters alone. from Georgia or any member of the ex- these people but not to the Foreign Re-
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, will isting committee. This resolution is lations Committee. He draws a clear
the Senator yield? merely an assertion of what we believe to distinction between the Foreign Rela-
Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. I yield. be one of the duties of the Foreign Re- tions Committee on the one hand and on
Mr. FULBRIGHT. A short time ago, lations Committee, to be aware of the the other the informal committee and
when this matter first came up, after. developments and activities of our Gov- the advisory committee. We went
the introduction of the original Mc- ernment in respect to foreign relations. through all this before we offered the
Carthy resolution calling for an investi- We are not asserting that the CIA makes resolution.
gation, we had Admiral Raborn in com- foreign policy. We do assert that they Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. I be-
mittee. He takes the position that he is greatly influence foreign policy. This is lieve it is of great importance to keep this
not authorized under existing regulations not new at all. There have been a great committee small. In fact, personally, I
or law to answer questions put to him many times when resolutions have been would not serve on a committee of 15
by the Committee on Foreign Relations, introduced in this body-and I believe members or more, or even
other than. very superficial ones. How- In the other. body-seeking to create Mr. FULBRIGHT. This is nine.
ever, the original McCarthy resolution, special, joint committees, or some other Mn YOUNG of North Dakota. Or even
Senate Resolution 210, is not what is cur- kind of committee to oversee CIA. This nine members or more, because-
rently under consideration in the Com- Is not any new idea at all. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The
mittee on Foreign Relations. All that My thought is that it would be helpful time of the Senator from North Dakota
the resolution now being considered to the CIA, and to the existing commit- has expired.
would do-on which we intend to have tee, if this matter in some way could be Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. I ask
a vote tomorrow-would be to formalize regularized by action of the Senate. The unanimous consent to proceed for 1 addi-
the committee as it is now constituted Senate has never taken any specific tional minute.
and to add to it three members from the action creating the' existing committee, The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
Committee on Foreign Relations. This nor has it ever taken any action what- objection, it is so ordered.
resolution does not call for an investiga- ever directly with regard to the CIA that MBr. YOUNG of North Dakota. Be-
tion. It is only to add three members I am aware of. We do not take any cause there is always the chance of leaks.
to the present membership, thus giving action on its budget, and so forth. Thus, The Senator from Georgia pointed out
three committee representation. It is i believe that it would clarify the situa- that this committee never has had a leak.
quite simple. ' tion and be beneficial to the CIA to reg- I trust every Member of the Senate, but
Statements have been made here intii- ularize its relationship to the Senate. I would not want to serve on a sizable
cating there might be a misunderstand- I do not believe it would cause all this committee dealing with top-secret ques-
ing as to the nature of the resolution now harm. tions.
under consideration by the Committee on I can see why everyone is suspicious,'. Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sen-
Foreign Relations. perhaps, of every other Member of the ator from Arkansas- referred to the in-
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The 3 Senate when it comes to leaks. They are formal committee. Let me say that
minutes of the Senator have expired, afraid someone else did it. But this these subcommittees are as formal as
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I resolution provides for only three new any in the Senate. When a committee
ask unanimous consent that ,I may pro- members. I believe that the members is created, it is authorized to appoint
ceed for an additional 5 minutes. of the Foreign Relations Committee are subcommittees. That is exactly what
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without responsibile Members of the Senate.' we have done. There is nothing informal
objection, it is so ordered. I thank the Senator. about this. These are formal subcom-
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. First, I mittees appointed under authority of the
wanted to make that clear. should like to say I believe that the For- committee.
I believe the Foreign Relations Com- eign Relations Committee could have ac- Mr. FULBRIGHT. Let me ask, has
mittee should be represented because complished that purpose by establishing there been any precedent? Was there
under existing regulations, Admiral Ra-, a subcommittee of its own to authorize any other example of this kind that the
born feels he is not authorized to answer and get all the information it wanted, Senator knows of which a subcommit-
questions put to him by the Committee but I believe- tee has jurisdiction or oversight over an
on Foreign Relations. , Mr. FULBRIGHT. How do they do agency which is larger than the State
In addition, I believe that the growth that? Department?
of the CIA is such that it is not an Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. Let me Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. If the Sen-
anomalous situation for the Senate to answer the question. If the President of 'ator is referring to the number of cm-
have its Foreign Relations Committee the United States would limit the CIA, as ployees, let me mention the Department
represented. other agencies of the President are, as to as, of Agriculture. The Committee on Agri-
All this resolution would do, if agreed the information they can divulge, I do culture and Forestry has four times as
to by the committee, is to have this is- not see that the Foreign Relations Com- many employees to supervise.
sue submitted to the Senate, and the mittee would get any more information if
Senate could do what it pleases. There they were part of our committee; or op- Mr. FULBRIGHT. But this is, as I
Is nothing in this action to reflect on the erating separately. understand, a joint committee.
senior Senator from Georgia. We all Mr. FULBRIGHT. Senator, if I may Mr. RUSSELL or Georgia. It is not
have the greatest respect and affection respond, I asked the admiral some ques- any joint committee. We meet together
for him. That is quite irrelevant to what tions he would not answer to the Foreign' merely for purposes of convenience, be-
is considered here, and that is the for- . Relations Committee. Then I asked; cause the Senator from Massachusetts
eign relations implications of the activ- "Do you answer this kind of question to and I are members of both committees,
Sties of the CIA. the advisory committee?" And he said, as well as the Senator from Maine [Mrs.
It'is revealing no secret that the CIA "Certainly." The advisory committee, I SMITH], and the Senator from Mississippi
operation abroad is very great. believe; has eight private citizens on it [Mr. STErnvrs]. To avoid having to meet
Foreign relations are not, of course,' who are not officials of the Government once here, the same members go over the
involved in many ways, as we were not in the same sense, I believe, that a Sen- same subject, or practically the same
involved when the original CIA was ator is. While I do not wish to puff up subject, the next day.
created. I agree with the Senator from the importance of Senators too much, i For purposes of convenience, we have
North Dakota that the CIA has opera- do believe that as elected representatives convened the two subcommittees to-
tions which are more extensive than the they are as much entitled to information gether, but both are subcommittees duly
State Department's. They have far about this activity as are these private appointed, as all other subcommittees of
larger budgets and far more personnel citizens who come from the business life the Senate are appointed.
operating in these countries. There Is of the Nation and also from the ranks of Mr. President, I submit that over four-
no idea at all on my part, or on, the part retired generals or semiretired generals. .fifths of the bills of this committee are
No. 80-=13
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 Approved For FG0 M *: TRD75-OU149RDB0700140035-5 May 16, 1966
sent to
mittee.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The
time of the Senator from North Dakota
has expired.
Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. I ask
unanimous consent to proceed for 1 ad-
ditional minute.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. YOUNG of North Dakota. I want
to say one word about the budget. I
understand that the Bureau of the Budg-
et, which also supervises the CIA, con-
siders the CIA budget to be one of the
very best in Government because it de-
tails everything. The Bureau of the
Budget knows more precisely how the
CIA operates and spends its money than
any other agency of the Government.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, to
be sure that we understand the nature
of this resolution-and I speak as a
member of the Foreign Relations Com-
mittee who is also a - member of the
Armed Services Committee, as well as a
member of the Subcommittee on the
Central Intelligence Agency I read sec-
tion 2 of said resolution:
It shall be the duty of the committee on
intelligence operations to keep itself fully
and currently informed of the activities of
the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense
Intelligence Agency, and the Bureau of In-
telligence and Research of the Department
of State and other agencies of the.Govern-
ment, including but not limited to the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in so far as
the activities of such agencies relate to
.foreign intelligence or counter intelligence.
Mr. President, it would seem 'obvious
that a committee which operated in such
a broad and diversified field would have
to have a staff. But reasons for not hav-
ing a staff have already been presented
by the distinguished Senator from
Georgia.
Nevertheless, section 5 states:
The committee shall have power to employ
and fix compensation of such officers, experts,
and employees, as it deems necessary in the
performance of its duties. The committee is
authorized to utilize the services, informa-
tion, facilities, and personnel of the various
departments and agencies of the govern-
ment.
Mr. President, I, too, was disturbed by
an editorial on Sunday, May 8, in the
New York Times, which stated:
Senator RUSSELL and his "secret seven"-a
Senate subcommittee selected, with CIA
screening, from the Armed Services and Ap-
propriations Committees-
Mr. President, everyone who knows
anything about this committee knows
that is a misstatement. There has never
been any screening of this subcommit-
tee. After 10 years of service on the
Armed Services Committee twent to the
chairman of that committee and asked
him if I could join the CIA subcommit-
tee. He explained why he had rigidly
held to the seniority system, in the hope
that as few people as possible would know
the details of the various operations of
the CIA, operations which affect the
security and lives of the U.S. citizens;
and also many people, in other countries.
There is an article in the New York
Times, of Friday, May 13, which gives
in some detail what went on at a hear-
ing the previous day in the Foreign Rela- Filially, I would pay my respects to the
tions Committee. distinguished senior Senator from Geor-
It is not entirely accurate. It is my gia [Mr. RUSSELL], who satisfied me that
be executive hearings, and if details of
them are'given the press, they should be
given to all the press, not to any par-
ticular segment.
Mr. President, I have often heard the
basic criticism of the Central Intelli-
gence Agency, namely, that it is setting
policy. Therefore, in November and De-
cember of last year, and January and
April of this year, I visited a dozen coun-
tries and made it a point to ask two ques-
tions of our ambassadors.
First, were they entirely satisfied with
the functions of the Central Intelligence
Agency? .
Without exception of any kind what-
ever, all of them said they were so satis-
fied.
Second, I asked if at any time they had
problems with respect to the Central In-
telligence Agency setting policy; and
they all assured me they did not have any
such problems.
Mr. SALTONSTALL. Mr. President,
will the Senator yield?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I am glad to yield
to the able and distinguished Senator
from Massachusetts.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The 3
minutes of the Senator have expired.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I
ask unanimous consent for another 5
minutes.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
objection, 5 additional minutes are allot-
ted to the Senator from Missouri,
Mr. SALTONSTALL. I wish to ask the
Senator from Missouri a question. Did
any ambassador tell the Senator that the
CIA was . creating policy without his
knowledge?
Mr. SYMINGTON. No ambassador I
talked to said the CIA was creating
policy.
All said they were entirely satisfied
with the operations of the CIA in the
country in question.
In view of these colloquies and various
dialogs, I am beginning to wonder
whether some people think the United
States can operate without any intel-
legence agency of any kind, unless it is
an open agency; that it is not necessary
or advisable, in a democratic' system,
to have such an agency as the CIA. I
would hope, if anyone believes that is
true, they would frankly so state, because
I do not see how we can operate in this
world in which we live today without an.
agency such as that headed by Admiral
Raborn and formerly by John McCone
and Allen Dulles.
I recently read the Penkovsky papers.
He estimated that 80 percent of the
people who represent the Soviet Union
belonged either to the KBG, the political
intelligence branch, or the GRU, the mil-
itary unit.
It is interesting to note that Penkov-
sky tried to make contact with British
businessmen for some time before he was
successful, because he could not believe
that anybody from the United States or
Great Britain could be in Russia on a
job and. not be an intelligence agent of
the United States or Great Britain..
to newspapers or anybody else except on
the basis of right to know; and the com-
mittee should not have a staff.
In my years in the Senate I have never
seen anyone who, when assigned a task,
carried it out with greater diligence,
character, and- ability than the senior
Senator from Georgia:
wholeheartedly with my distinguished
friend the chairman of the Foreign Re-
lations Committee that there was no in-
ber of the Foreign Relations Committee
to criticize Chairman RUSSELL, but I do
think when people write that the com-
mittee of which he is chairman is only
chosen after screening by the CIA-com-
pletely inaccurate-that at least is im-
plied criticism.
Mr. GRUENING. Mr. President, I
would like to ask the distinguished chair-
man of the committee a question. I
share wholeheartedly the tribute which
the senior Senator from Missouri [Mr.
SYMINGTON] paid him, but I would like
to pose a question, because I think it
pertinent to this discusison on whether
the Foreign Relations Committee should
not have representation on the Senate's
watchdog committee. If the CIA does
not make foreign policy, it certainly
helps make it decisively and irretriev-
ably when we think of the lamentable
episode of the Bay of Pigs, which it spon-
sored, organized, and financed. When
there were grave doubts about its advisa-
bility in the White House, the CIA was
defending and urging that operation, in
which it had the vested interest of
proving that it was right, in starting it,
which was certainly a' matter of foreign
policy. The CIA did indeed have a pro-
found effect on the foreign policy of the
United States. As has been so carefully
brought out in the historical accounts by
Mr. Ted Sorenson and Mr. Arthur Schles-
inger, both firsthand witnesses of how
the decisions for this tragic misadven-
ture were made, the CIA did make for-
eign policy in that case. The CIA cer-
tainly devised, promoted, and conducted
the execution of the policies that resulted
in that ghastly fiasco.
I wish the Senator from Georgia would
comment on that matter.
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia.. Boiling
down what the Senator has said, he says
that the CIA sold the President a bill of
had a plan that did not work and it con-
vinced the President to go ahead with it.
The late President John F. Kennedy
was a fine statesman, with the soul of a
poet and the heart of a lion. He never
took full responsibility for the complete
fiasco of the Bay of Pigs. Preparations
and plans for the invasion had started
before President Kennedy took office,
There had been a training program for
Cuban refugees. Those people were get-
ting impatient and there was a possibil-
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 May 16, 1966 Approved FFi mosawQ'/AP,/'gE( oDemmq 000700140035-5
10129
The President consulted with the Joint believe that there would be a great up- foreign policy, is a matter I do not know
Chiefs of Staff. I do not think the Pres- rising, and they misinformed the Presi- how to resolve. I believe that this agen-
ident was completely responsible. There dent. cy, because of its enormous size and the
was confusion about the views of the Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. That Is money it has to spend, is a major in-
Joint Chiefs. There was a series of what the Senator says. fluence in our foreign policy.
tragic errors. Mr. GRUENING. It is a fact, as re- This is not said in derrogation. On
The CIA made a mistake, in my opin- ported by the competent historians who the contrary, I compliment the CIA, be-
ion, in telling the President they thought sat in on the whole business. How can cause in many countries its representa-
this operation had a good chance of sue- it be disputed? tives stay longer and in man
y ways are.
cess. My own view of it-and I did not Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. I think better prepared-they are certainly bet-
know about the timing of it, although I that was a series of tragic errors on the ter financed and have more influence-
did know about the training-was that part of everybody involved, and I do not than our Ambassadors. I have been told
no 1,500 men who ever lived or fought think it is,fair to place the entire respon- this on a number of occasions. In other
could be put ashore under the situation sibility- words, it is a highly efficient organize,-
that then existed in Cuba and expect to The PRESIDING OFFICER. The tion. My remarks are not meant to be
get a foothold there. But the Joint time of the Senator from Alaska has ex- a reflection upon them. But the fact is
Chiefs interlaced their views, with all pared. that they are often In positions because
kinds of suggestions about support by Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I do of continuity and experience to dominate
U.S. forces. There was a carrier just out not wish to prolong the matter or discuss policy in particular countries.
of sight, off the shores of Cuba, over the all its merits. It would take a long time, Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. Will the
horizon. I am not too sure whether our and it has been discussed before. I wish Senator name any of those countries?
ships were to be used as support. But to put in perspective the resolution the Mr. FULBRIGHT. I do not like to do
the operation was hopeless, because from Foreign Relations Committee has under so in public, because it would immedi-
the, beginning it was based on mistakes consideration. It calls only for the addi- ately bring up names. It is for the same
by many of those involved, I think" in- tion of three members to the existing in-; reason that the Senator from Georgia
cluding everyone who was involved, ex- formal committee. There is no require- does not want to discuss these things in
cept the Senator from Arkansas, . He has ment that therebc any staff. The corn- public.
complained about his not being privy to mittee does not need to have to have a Mr. SYMINGTON. Will the Senator
CIA activities. I did not know the tim- staff, if the committee does not wish one, yield?
ing of the Bay of Pigs operation but ap- and they do not have to go into all of the Mr. FULBRIGHT. I have been told-
parently the Senator from Arkansas was matters, of the FBI and others, that are and I think it is quite natural-the em-
informed. He advised against it. I only 'within the authorization of their powers. ployees of CIA do not have the same
wish I had been consulted, because I The way matters have developed, this relationship to Congress as employees of
would have strongly advised against this agency seems to have engaged'
ngaged in far the State Department. i have never
kind of operation if I had been. That more activities than was anticipated heard of anybody seeking to be sent
may have been one reason why I was not, when it was originally created. abroad as the head of a CIA mission be-
consulted. My position was well known. Recently two affairs have been men- cause he was a major contributor to a J
I knew about the plans, but I did not tioned in the press.. I am giving away political campaign, and I doubt whether
know about the timing of it. I did not no secret, because I read about them only the Senator knows of one, either. In
think the operation had a chance of sue-. in the press. One , was the Carver article. other words, the CIA employees are pro-
cess, unless it had active support from It is unusual for a paid full-time em= fessionals. I was paying them a compli-
the United States. ' ployee of the CIA to write articles di- ment, insofar as their efficiency goes.
But the Senator cannot blame the CIA rectly' on foreign relations-not only on Nevertheless, it also means they are very
for all that was wrong, foreign relations, but also on our specific influential in the reporting and the
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The 3 relations in Vietnam at the moment- making-the final making-of foreign
minutes of the Senator have expired. without any identification that he is a policy. I agree that foreign policy is
Mr. GRUENING. I ask the Chair for Government employee. It seems to me made, In the technical sense, by the Pres-
1 minute more. to be quite beyond the ordinary antici- ident; that is, he, determines It more
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without pated activities of a member of this than anyone else-he and the National
objection, the Senator may have 1 addi- agency to write without Identification, Security Council.
tional minute. for a distinguished domestic journal. Mr. SALTONSTALL. Will the Sena-
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The CIA I do not believe the agency was cre- tor yield?
could not move 1 ' foot and would not ated to influence surreptitiously, in a Mr. FULBRIGHT. If I may have
move 1 foot without the approval of the sense, the attitude and policies-the at- more time, I shall be glad to yield.
President of the United States and the titude, particularly-of the people of this The PRESIDING OFFICER. The time
National Security Council; and they, in country. of the Senator has expired.
turn, thought they were relying on the The other affair involved Michigan Mr. FULBRIGHT. I request 5 addi-
advice of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. State University. These are.two of the tional minutes, so that I may yield.
There is some dispute about that, most recent matters that have been re- The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
Mr. GRUENING. My point is that vealed. objection, the Senator from Arkansas is
they do In effect make foreign policy, I am interested because I think these granted 5 additional minutes.
through their persuasiveness and pre- are essentially nonmilitary matters, and Mr. SALTONSTALL. It is my under-
sumed inside knowledge. When they they are intended to operate, and do standing, and I am sure it is the under-
can persuade two Presidents-President operate in a different field, one that is standing of the Senator from Arkansas,
essentially foreign policy. that the Director of th
Eisenhower
to start with in g- r
44-
esi th
I
,
e
e C
A supplies
expedition started and President Ken- The advice of three members of the intelligence information each day to the
Foreign Relation
C
itt
expo
omm
s
was instinctively opposed to
ee could help President and the heads of various de-
nt d who various
-It did l effntl make foreign volved in this kind of activity. The given to the State Department, themili-
policy. strictly military activities certainly are _ tary departments, the Atomic Energy
not matters of major concern to my com- Commission, and any other agency that
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. I do not mittee; and I' do not believe that my Is concerned. So it is not the CIA alone
agree with the Senator at all. I do not committee attempts or will attempt to that has this information.
think they made a mistake in trying to inerfere with any of the military aspects. Mr. FULBRIGHT. It is the largest
train some of the refugees, because no However, I have asked the CIA ques- and most important of the intelligence
one could tell what was going on in Cuba. tions-which I do not like to go Into in agencies: I do not view this resolution as
Those men might have been valuable. the Senate-about other matters which a radical action. I shall be content with
Mr. GRUENING. Why did they not concern me very much, as a matter of whatever the Senate wishes to do. This
know what was going on in Cuba? That foreign policy. Is the most moderate proposal that has
was their function. That was .their re- This quibbling about words as to been made to Congress in recent years,
sponsibility. They led the President to whether the CIA Influences or makes and r thought it would help to dispose
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 specific bills, they tried not to divulge to Foreign Relations who wanted specific the light of my own close working rela-
the newspapers the results of the voting, information on the basis of "right to
But the reporters bedeviled everybody know," would be denied that informa_ tionship with the CIA on critical occa-
with the question, "How did you vote?" tion? sions and my very good and satisfactory
As a matter of convenience to the mem- Mr. FULBRIGHT. I do not know relations with them.
bers, so far as the vote was concerned, my about that. I can only relate what ac- I want to make another thing per-
predecessors as chairman gave the infor- tually happened. I do not know whether fectly clear. I hold the senior Senator
motion to the newspaper reporters. It anyone has made such an effort. from Georgia in the highest esteem and
was actually. a convenience. This is one . I do not see that this is so important affection. That question is not involved
of the things that was called a leak this or that it involves so much. Our coun- here at all.
morning. It is not a leak. It is an old try is involved in so many different The question really before the Senate,
custom that information as to the dotes countries around the world that it is or the question that will soon be before
be given when there is.a specific vote, as more than appropriate that the Commit- the Senate, I hope, is whether the CIA
was taken on the resolution which is un- tee on Foreign Relations have represen-. and its program and its operations have
der consideration by the committee as a tation in this very unusual operation, sufficient implications on foreign policy
whole. If a quorum is developed-I do There is no denying that the CIA in to justify the Senate in placing three
not know whether it will be-the com- numbers-and I might think in quality, members of the Senate Foreign Rela-
mittee will vote on the proposal tomorrow although I do not know that except in a. tions committee on a select committee
morning. few instances about which I have been to exercise surveillance over the CIA.
cedure. I do not believe that the mem- I feel that the admiral is under great
bers of the Foreign Relations Committee restrictions as to our committee, and he As chairman of the African Subcom-
are any more prone to leak information- may be correct., It is a big committee. mittee..during the critical situation in
than anyone else. As everyone knws, it is too big a com- the Congo I was currently informed. I
I do not consider as leaks some of the mittee, but I cannot help that. was in the Congo. I had close communi-
matters that have been referred to this The proposal of the Senator from Min- cation with the CIA agents and person-
morning as leaks. nesota is to have three Senators from nel there. I should like to say that the.
For example, a complaint was made Foreign Relations on a select committee. operation in the Congo was one of the
this morning in the committee about the That would be very different from giv- successful undertakings of our Govern-
votes in executive session. ing the whole committee security infor- ment in this decade. It saved the heart
During the tenures of Senators Con- matron on the CIA. of Africa from a deliberate, attempted
nally and George as chairmen, when Mr. SYMINGTON. Does the Senator seizure by the Soviet Union. So, when
there were votes in executive session on feel any member of the Committee on I make the comments which I expect to
make I wish them to be understood in
I do not want to dwell upon a mistake. the matter personally. I related this in its wr a Directors en ra have n been g g y
Everybody makes mistakes. I want to the committee meeting. I asked certain aod.
keep to this point and to some of the' questions which I think are quite legiti- I have heard the chairman of the
other points that have been made. I do mate. , The questions did not involve cer- committee make inquiries of the Direc-
not understand why this proposal is tain delicate matters such as the budget for in recent weeks, to which inquiries
taken so seriously and is considered a which he might not want to answer even the Director did not answer. I have not
major uprooting of the established pro- - to the committee. personally made an inquiry of the CIA
which has not been satisfied
May YG, 196G
10130 Approved For I Si9 Fd6~4/'Y/~' ' :'Uk-%P75-Ml49RUD0700140035-5
of this matter. The question did not Even then it is up to the Senate to do ? told-is larger than the State Depart-
originate with the resolution of the Sen- what it likes with the proposal. The . ment.
ator from Minnesota. I recall that the committee sincerely believes that this I do not know that we can say that
present majority leader introduced a proposal would contribute to the quieting the State Department makes policy. It
resolution providing for the creation of of the quickening criticism of the Central merely advises the President, and it has
a much larger joint committee in this Intelligence Agency. It might even con- more or less influence.
field, and other Senators have done the tribute some suggestions as to how the I do. think that this great prominence
same. I considered this a modest pro- agency might operate, That is all the of the Central Intelligence Agency in
posal, one that would necessitate a min- proposal is. I think it is a very modest foreign policy probably grew up by pure
imum of participation by Senators out- proposal. I am not fighting over it. If chance when the Secretary of State and
side those who are at present concerned. the Senate does not want to do this, it is the Director of the Central Intelligence
No other committee of any conse- all right with me. Agency were brothers. That created a
quence has as few as nine members.. The The PRESIDING OFFICER, The time relationship that was rather unusual in
Foreign Relations Committee has been of the Senator has expired. our system. As a result of this relation-
enlarged to 19, over my protest, and that Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, will ship, there grew up the idea that per-
of a number of senior Senators. it - the Senator yield? haps the State Department and the Cen-
started out with 13, was enlarged to 15 Mr. FULBRIGHT. I yield. tral Intelligence Agency were more in-
and then 17, and now has 19 members. Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, at timately associated with the making of
I think the committee is too big. I cer- the time that I questioned whether I be foreign policy than the original creation
tainly was not in favor of it. The en- a member of the committee some 4 or 5 of the Agency anticipated. That situa-
largement was done, without my concur- years ago, the Senate from Georgia [Mr. tion existed for the 7 or.8 years, or what-
rence, during the regime of the present RUSSELL] said I coulld go to the Central ever period of time it was, that John
President of the United States. Anyway, Intelligence Agency at any time and get Poster Dulles was Secretary of State.
it was done. any information desired, In that way it I think this is a restricted proposal
I grant that the more people who are was limited to one person. _ and I hope that the Senate will accept
included, nomatter who they are, the I feel sure that, as chairman of the it.
likely will there be leaks of informs- Committee on Foreign Relations, if the The PRESIDING OFFICER. The
more
tion. In this instance we are only sug- distinguished Senator from Arkansas time of the Senator has expired.
tion. three additional members, to wanted to get any information person- Mr. GORE. Mr. President, I ask unan-
g
that he would be assured he could obtain imous consent that I may proceed for 5
to nine. h ally,
bring
would the not say total that this wo membership uld result in information. minutes.
jor, terrible, drastic, catastrophic I would not want the RECORD to reflect The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
a machange in the present situation. I there is any information that the able objection,,it is so ordered.
thought it was a modest suggestion, one Senator could not obtain. It is effort to Mr. GORE. Mr. President, in view of
that might quiet the whole matter down control the number of people, perhaps, the remarks that have been made ' by
and satisfy those who violently object, especially staff people, who have access sundry Senators today, I feel that I
for example, to Incidents like the Carver to such highly sensitive information. ' should make some brief comment.
article or the MSU incident. I do not Mr. FULBRIGHT. I think it is a mat- Both as a member of the House Ap-
want to call the roll on others. ter pr elatioions is that the Cd entitled t to o this s inon propriations Committee for 10 years and
Forei gn Relat thi- as a Senator, in my personal relations
There have been other instances, and formation. I am not complaining about 14-11 +11 C t 1 I +_114 nee A enc and
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 `May 16, 1966 Approved I&11"M6l 4Vl.2REC 49R000700140035-5 1.0131
In my view the case is overwhelmingly
persuasive. Unquestionably the Ap-
propriations Committee should have a
member on the surveillance committee.
I think that unquestionably the Armed
Services Committee should have repre-
sentation on that surveillance committee.
It would seem to me, as between the
Committee on Appropriations and the
Committee on Armed Services, that per-
haps the Committee on Appropriations;
would have priority. But, as between the
Committee on Foreign Relations and the
Committee on Armed Services, Ishould
be hardpressed to say to which commit-
tee the choice should be given, if a choice
were to be made between those two com-
mittees.
I should be a little inclined to think,
in view of the current and recent opera-
tions of the CIA, that priority should be
given to the Committee on Foreign Rela-
tions. However, I think that all three of
the committees that I have mentioned
should be represented on the surveillance
subcommittee. That is the reason that I
propose to vote for the resolution.
The distinguished senior Senator from
Georgia spoke of there being no neces-
sity to satisfy the curiosity of Senators.
I think that upon reflection he would
think that there is a need to satisfy the
inquiries and the concern of Senators.
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. I did not
say inquiries and concern.
Mr. GORE. The Senator said curiosity
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. The Sena-
tor is correct.
Mr. GORE. I should think the Sena-
tor from Georgia would think, upon re-
flection, that there is a need to satisfy the
curiosity of Senators on a matter affect-
ing war or peace, on a matter affecting
the relationship of the United States and
I think Senators are entitled to have Senator from Georgia about the Bay of
their curiosity satisfied under such cir- Pigs and the Joint Chiefs of Staff cause
cumstances. However, I have had very me to make some comments which I
satisfactory experience with the CIA and have withheld for a long while. The
with the present Director when I talked ,,..curly time I recall when I have been per-
to him last at a committee hearing. sonally pilloried on the floor of the Sen-
ate during my service here was during the
;Period when the Senate Foreign Rela-
Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, a parlia- joint chiefs implied that-I will not un-
mentary inquiry. dertake to quote him exactly, but as I
Mr. RUSSELL of Georgia. Mr. Presi- understood it-that they based their
dent, I ask unanimous consent that the opinion on air support.
rule of germaneness be waived. Mr. President, it happened that I was
Mr. SYMINGTON. Correct. That the first caller on the late President
was my intention. Kennedy on the morning after the Bay
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The of Pigs invasion. I shall not undertake
Senator from Oregon has a parliamen- to describe the drama of that occasion.
tary inquiry. The Senator will state it. He was a very troubled man-very dis-
Mr. MORSE.' Now that the hour of turbed about some advice he had re-
2 o'clock has arrived, do we automati- ceived.
cally bring to an end the morning hour, As the distinguished senior Senator
or are we still in the morning hour? from Georgia has now related, at least
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Morn- in part, and as others have stated, the
ing business has been concluded at 2 Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff
o'clock. certified to the President that the pro-
Mr. MORSE. Then the Senator from posed Bay of Pigs invasion was a feasible
Tennessee has the floor in his own right military operation without air support.
for whatever period of time he wishes? It was upon the basis of the knowledge
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The of that fact that I made the statement
Senator from Tennessee has the floor in that the President needed the advice of
his own right. The Senator from Geor- a wiser and abler Chief of Staff. So I
gia has requested that the rule of ger- make this statement now, long after the
The Chair hears none, and the rule of
germaneness is waived. ?
The Senator from Tennessee is recog-
nized. the RECORD, when all that any Senator
Mr. GORE. Mr. President, I was had to do was go downstairs and read
about to say that the last time the di- the committee record, and I invited some
rector of the CIA, Admiral Raborn, ap- of them to go and so read.
peared before the Senate Foreign Rela- Mr. President, the Senator from Alaska
tions Committee, he personally came by says that the CIA made.policy with re-
and offered to come to my office to give spect to the Bay of Pigs operation. I
me such additional information as I could not exactly agree with that, I
might wish about a question which I had would not agree that the CIA made policy
expressed an interest. So in stating in this instance or that it made policy
these views, I wish to make it explicitly in the Congo. But there, as in the
clear that I do not take this position in Congo, the CTA was a very important op-
criticism of the CIA-though in some erative. An agency that executes policy
instances I have not favored the under- and advises as to the feasibility of policy;
taking of that agency-nor the distin- an agency that gathers and evaluates
tions Committee was investigating the
Bay of Pigs affair; and after a certain
revelation, which was within my knowl-
edge before it was generally revealed, I
expressed the view 'that the President
needed the advice of a Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff other than the
Chairman at that time, General Lem-
pmitzer. As sometimes happens, " this
expression of mine received wide
(circulation.
There was an immediately outcry
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY ' on the floor of the Senate, by some of
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I the generals of the Senate, that I was
undermining
ask unanimous consent that the Sena- services. the moral at the armed
for from Tennessee be permitted to con- ias rom coast There to was a spate able to
u
tinue for an additional 5.minutes. defend from
myself with th facts coast. Iacts was unable
because to
defend the
The PRESIDING OFFICER.. The information which would have provided
hour of 2 o'clock having arrived, the me a perfect defense was then classified
Senator does not need unanimous con- information,
sent to proceed. Since then, a great deal of history has
Mr. GORE. I shall not use very much been written by the people who were
time. . participants in that conference. ? The
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, distinguished senior Senator from Geor-
does the rule of germaneness apply? gia has himself made some statements
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The rule on the floor today which prompt me to
f germaneness does apply. make this statement. He said that the
ence I endured on the floor of the Senate
then, being unable at that time to de-
fend myself by making a statement for
able results of policy, describing con-
ditions existing which, in the view of
that Agency, justify a policy, is certainly
a part of decisionmaking.
I think, if the Senator from Alaska will
permit me, I would suggest that instead
of the CIA making policy, it engages in
an Important decisionmaking function,
the final policy determination being, of
course, vested in the President of . the-
United States.
But this advice, this execution of
policy, this examination of the situation,
,this gathering and evaluation of intelli-
gence information, is such a vital part
of decisionmaking, and in many in-
stances has such important implications
on foreign policy, that it seems to me
overwhelmingly to justify the presence
of members of the Senate Foreign Re-
lations Committee on this surveillance
committee.
Therefore, Mr. President, with no in-
tention to derogate members of the pres-
ent subcommittee, or to criticize the CIA
in any particular instance, I shall sup-
port the resolution.
Mr. McCARTHY. Mr. President, Will
Mr. GORE. I am happy to yield to the
Senator from Minnesota.
Mr. McCARTHY. I thank the Senator
from Tennessee, and I commend him for.
having made a most objective case in
behalf of the resolution proposed by the
Foreign Relations Committee.
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 10132 Approved For 0.21i,: ] SC3@PA6-01 0700140035-5 May 16, 1966
Certainly no one on that committee Director saying, "I can give this infor- of the United States. That was when
questions the ability, the integrity, or the mation to others, but not to you." interest in this matter first developed.
dedication of the senior Senator from There was no offer to give the informa- I have followed it since. This is true of
Georgia in his work in dealing with this tion if we went to the building on the most Senators who have continued that
Agency, nor the ability, integrity, or ded- other side of the river. He said that he interest through the years. It is a con-
ication of any of the members who have thought it was clear that he did not cern for the proper function of Govern-
served on this very special committee. have the right to give it to us. ment, for the maintenance of proper re-
So far as I know, they have met all their What we propose to do is to make it lationships, and it. is a desire to provide
responsibilities. clear that under the law the Director can procedures by which the Senate, in this
That is not the issue presented to the give this kind of information to the. case through the Committee on Foreign
Senate. The issue is the basic one de- members of our committee under the Relations, can exercise its basic consti-
fined by the Senator from Tennessee and same conditions and terms that It ' is . tutional responsibility.
the Senator from Arkansas [Mr. FuL- given to members of the Armed Services Mr. GORE. I thank the Senator. Be-
BRIGHT], of whether or not the Senate Committee and the Appropriations Com- fore closing, I wish-
believes that the Foreign Relations Com- mittee. Mr. GRUENING. Mr. President, will
inittee, which is the instrument of the One of the Senators cited the resolu- the Senator yield before closing?
Senate charged with responsibility for ;tion in terms of Staff and related activi- Mr. GORE. I shall yield, but now I
advising the Senate on foreign policy ties. wish to advert to the question involving
questions, should have the same kind of The.chairman of the Armed Services General Lemnitzer. I do not now wish to
information which is given to selected Committee made the point that under criticize General Lemnitzer.
members of the Armed Services Coln- the present arrangement there is a As the Senator from Georgia said,
mittee. formal committee, a subcommittee of his many people made an error in the Bay
As the Senator has said, we do not committee. If that is the case, then he of Pigs fiasco. I have made my share of
challenge the right; it is entirely proper could use the authority he has in setting errors.
that the members of that committee up a staff for his committee to carry on I do wish to set the record straight at
should be given information about the necessary activities. this late date. After it was divulged that
Central Intelligence Agency. We do not . If there are new procedures recom- General Lemnitzer had certified to Presi-
challenge the right of the Appropria- mended by the Senate that are not now dent Kennedy that the proposed Bay of
?-tions Committee to receive such informa- followed, those procedures could be fol- Pigs invasion without air cover Was a
tion. But I am sure the Senator agrees lowed by this proposed special commit- feasible military. operation, I thought
with me that, if we are really to fulfill tee which is in controversy here today. that the President was entitled to have,
our constitutional responsibility dele- Mr. GORE. I serve on the Joint and I felt there was a great need for him
gated to us by the Senate in foreign re- ? Committee on Atomic Energy. This com- to have, advice from a different Chief of
lations matters, at least three members mittee handles information of the most Staff.
of our committee should receive the same secret and delicate nature. It has a very Let the record show that President
treatment accorded three members of the competent staff. Its meeting room is Kennedy thought so, too, as demon-
Armed Services Committee and three subject to schutiny by the FBI before strated by his subsequent action in bring-
members of the Appropriations Com- each meeting is held. I have never ing Gen. Maxwell Taylor back from re-
mittee. known of the divulgence of any secret tirement and making him Chairman of
Mr. GORE. I concur fully. The Sen- from that committee. I know no reason the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
ate, under the Constitution, has a limited why this cannot be duplicated. I wish to complete the record on that
sort of partnership with the President in How a Senator may vote on an issue is point. I do not wish now to criticize any-
the conduct of this Nation's relations not a secret which involves the national one. I wish to say that I was unjustly
with other countries through advice and security. The design of a bombsight, or criticized at the time because of the
consent to confirmation of appointees, the techniques involved in the develop- statement I made, which I think was 100
ambassadors, Secretaries of State, to ment of a nuclear weapon might be a percent true then and. it is 100 percent
ratification of treaties, and in other secret which the enemy would welcome. true now.
ways. But I doubt if any foreign country is I yield.
This body has a quasi-partnership very much interested in how I vote on a Mr. GRUENING. I have no quarrel
with the President in the conduct of in- motion in the Committee on Foreign with, in fact, I welcome the emendation
ternational affairs. That responsibility Relations. My constituents are in- which my friend from Tennessee made
has been partially delegated by the Sen- terested and perhaps they are entitled with regard to my statement that the
ate to the Committee on Foreign to know. At least the security of the CIA does make foreign policy.
Relations. country is not involved If they do know. Whether the statement of the Senator
It would seem to me that in conse- My own security might be at some time. from Arkansas [Mr. FULBRIGIITI, the
quence, therefore, the committee would This is a matter of one sort, but. a chairman of the Committee on Foreign
be entitled to the privy sort of relation-. secret that is important to the security Relations, that the CIA influences for-
ship with this operational agency, surely of the country Is another. eign policy, or whether the modification
to the extent of any other committee. I know of no information that is ever proponent by the Senator from Tennes-
Mr. McCARTHY. In effect, what we divilged from the Joint Committee on See which I think falls between those
are asking is that the Senate pass judg- Atomic Energy that involves the security two statements is correct, the basic fact
ment on this proposal. It may be that of the country. Is that the CIA exerts enough influence
they feel they have a different responsi- Mr. McCARTHY. Mr. President, will on foreign policy in effect to make for-
bility and that the members of the Com- the Senator yield? eign policy. This was demonstrated in
mittee on Foreign Relations are not to be Mr. GORE. I yield. the Bay of Pigs, where they organized
trusted. If that is the case they should Mr. McCARTHY. , I know that the the invasion project and when its sound-
give thought to changing the member- interest of the Senator from Tennessee ness was challenged in the White House
ship of that committee so that it could and myself and other Senators did not before it was launched, felt they had to
carry out its responsibility. develop in consequence of a series of defend and stay with their original pur-
But some Senators say, "We can trust articles in magazines and newspapers, pose, which would more than justify put-
six members of the Senate to deal with or publications and books dealing, with ting three members of the Foreign Rela-
this matter, and we can trust six persons the CIA. . , . tions Committee on thb watchdog com-
from the citizenry." We- know the That interest and concern goes back mittee. That was the point, I was mak-
members of the staff of the Bureau of the to the early fifties when the Hoover Com- ing.
Budget have to be trusted with informa- mission reported and advised that there It is very clear that in the Bay of Pigs
tion on the CIA. And at least six mem- should be a committee to exercise con- they, the CIA were major factors in mak-
bers from the House of Representatives tinuous supervision of this kind. Ing policy and had created a situation
are trusted. At that time, it was not a question of which made it almost impossible for
Here we have Senators who should be passing judgment on any activities, but President Kennedy to back out. Thus,t
given this information, We have a CIA of proper procedures of the Government In effect, they did make foreign policy
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