CIA RETIREMENT BOARD MEETING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP78-03092A000100030003-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: C
• Document Page Count: 55
• Document Creation Date: November 17, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 17, 2000
• Sequence Number: 3
• Content Type: MIN

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The CIA RETIREMENT BOARD convened on Thursday,
25 March 1965, at 3:00 p.m., in room 5E62 HQ, with the following present:
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
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Emmett D. Echols, Chairman
P
DDP
DDP
Paul Borel, DDI
DDI
George C. Miller, DDS&T
Alan Warfield, DDS
S
hnical Adviser
Finance Adviser
Executive Secretary
ecording Secretary
MR. ECHOLS: Are there any additions or corrections anyone would
like to make to the minutes? (No response.)
If I may, I'd like to make a couple of general comments, then.
First, I had promised to get to you the minutes prior to the
meeting, and we did not do so last week, although it is our intention to do so in the
future well in advance of the meeting in order to give you a chance to look at them
before you come to the meeting. In addition, I'd like to say that after the last
meeting I had some discussions with several of you, and in reading over the minutes
of the meeting I reached the conclusion that maybe I've gotten us off to a very poor
start in our task here. I think perhaps because I have lived with this thing so
closely for three years and, in fact, I'm very eager to get going with the implementation
of the thing, I assumed that with a background statement and some background reading
material that we would all have an instantaneous common background and understanding,
and that we could start to look at our procedures and start to screen people for
designation as participants in this system. I had thought then as problems came
up we could explore it more in detail and develop standards for things like overseas
service, and gradually build up an absolutely common understanding and accord. I
think now, and I feel now -- and I'd like your opinions -- I think I probably was way
in error and I rushed into this too fast.
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I'd like to suggest a new course of action for your consideration.
It seems to me that our immediate task is to develop an absolute unanimity of
understanding as to what our retirement law says, and also an understanding as to
the feelings and intentions of Congress when they wrote in certain provisions,
limitations, restrictions, and just what kind of a piece of legislation do we have --
what does it all mean -- I think that is our immediate task. And secondly, and
perhaps even more important - or equally important, certainly, I think we ought to
reach an absolute unanimity of opinion as to what our regulations, as drafted, mean.
I think the only way we can possibly do this is to go through these things paragraph
by paragraph, and ask questions, ask for interpretations, dig out some of the answers
and kick them around -- in some cases decide for ourselves, what does this mean? -
whether there is any latitude. To do this -- if I am right -- is going to be a
very time-consuming process, and it's something we can't do a couple of hours once
a week, in my opinion. It was suggested by somebody that perhaps we ought to
either work regularly on this a couple of hours a day for as long as it takes, or
25X1A6a 6a
we ve got to go down to-fora day or two days, or to or to
is that another place? -- where you can hide yourself away in comfort and really
bone up on something. I think if we were to do this -- and I don't care
how or where we do it -- that this is the quickest way we could build up an absolute
under standing.
I know myself there are so many things that we havEn It told you --
there hasn't been an opportunity to tell you. For example, I don't think that perhaps
any of you know that regulations generally -- in a conceptual form, in any event --
had been written up and were presented concurrently with our legislation. And one
of the great objections of Congress was: this law is so loose -- we can't come to
grips with it -- how can we come to grips with it? And we had to point out that for
security and other reasons we couldn't spell out the details in the legislation -- and
we didn't -- and they accepted this. And of course this is why they wrote in the
provision that our regulations had to be approved by a Congressional Committee, and
so on. In effect our regulations, by incorporation, in my opinion are literally at
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this moment an integral part of the legislation. I don't think I have ever said this
to you before. It's a piece of background that I think is very important to you.
But it's this kind of thing that I think we have to develop a common understanding on
before we can really go forward. Your questions, your fears, your doubts, in
my opinion are perfectly legitimate, but I think they represent the very thing that I
am concerned about - our lack of unanimity of background information, and so on.
Now, would anybody like to comment on this suggestion of a
concentrated attack on developing a common background?
25X1A9a I find as I try to do a little homework, I find some little
twist each time that I was not aware of before. So I think it would be all to the good.
For example, I came up today checking to see whether the signing of this statement
was one of the prerequisites for joining. It wasn't in the bill, but it was in the
regulation. Well, it's sort of a gimmick that bothers us. In other words,
following Jim' s idea I tried to develop how could we go out to the field to just
follow through -- designate people, get all the information down, make our assumptions -
we think this is qualifying service -- let the Board deny it, if they want to -- but then
ultimately you have to go to the man, if he's in the field, and say: We now have the
whole package together, we are ready to recommend you for this designation, please
sign the attached sheet. Here is where I see our various senior people in the field
asking: Do I have to sign it?
So then I looked in the bill, and it wasn't in the bill -- and I
wondered why it was put in the regulation. So possibly going through these points
one by one will help to clarify it. I know it's in the Senate report here, but even
there I thought - well, okay, we could say: If you don't want to sign it, return it,
with a statement as to why you don't. And then maybe we would get four of these
or maybe we would get 400, and depending on what happens we would know how to
approach it.
MR. ECHOLS: There is a long history right behind this very point --
and again, as you say, it's not in the bill, yet it's in the regulation -- why? Yet I
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don't believe we have any choice whatsoever -- I feel that it must be part of our
procedures.
25X1A9a Emmett, the conversations here are really not
very productive, because we are all talking about being informed. It seems to me
we ought to at least give a try to your J$MW putting the Act in front of you and talking
about it, giving your interpretations, before we go off for the 48 hour period or
something in the country -- because I for one would find it very difficult to do this
right now.
25X1A9a I'm not at all sure we are going to find that many areas
of controversy.
25X1A9a I'm not either. I think there are a few.
MR. ECHOLS: As I say, I'm perfectly willing to have meetings several
times a week, if desirable, or at night, or Saturdays and Sundays -- I don't care --
but I feel we have to get on with the job.
25X1A9a
If it's going to take a lot of time I personally would
prefer to devote a day to it right here, rather than a series of daily meetings, partly
because I have to come from town but partly because I could better organize my
other work to permit one day away from it, and get all of this out of the way. I
think that would also be advantageous in that it would get us all on the same track
sooner than a long series of daily meetings extending over a period of a week or
two weeks.
MR. ECHOLS: Alan?
MR. WARFIELD: I find that as I think about this -- subconsciously,
as I read along -- I think a lot of my thoughts 1 are crystallized on this -- and you
read through all the mass of material and you walk * away from it with very
strong ideas about what was intended, notwithstanding having read it. But I don't
think much would be gained by a long brainstorming session.
MR. ECHOLS: Okay. Maybe I was unnecessarily discouraged.
MR. WARFIELD: Would you undertake to answer specific questions --
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specifically, what do these words mean. Because there aren't very many questions,
but I think all of us have identified perhaps about the same 15. If you would
entertain questions and undertake to answer them--
MR. ECHOLS: Yes, and if we can't completely satisfy you on any one
of them at any one meeting, we can really staff out the question and give you the full
answer the next time, if that would be all right.
Well, on that basis, then, I guess we can just go ahead and tackle
our agenda. The very first item, really, which has been raised at our two previous
meetings, is Jerry wanted to know just what is the role of this Committee. The
regulations certainly hint at it, but we wanted to be more specific -- and these have
been handed out, so if you would like to take a couple of minutes to read this, I can
discuss this with you.
You may be too polite to ask the question as to why the word
"normally" is in the regulation, but I'll be glad to answer that. I've been writing
regulations for 20 years around this place and I've 0 always thrown in a "normally"
to give myself or whoever is involved in the Agency the latitude to do something, not
have a stringent road map. But it means nothing other than flexibility.
"The Director of Personnel shall normally obtain the advice of the Board--" --
indeed, this is my intention. I'd be foolish to do anything else. At the same time,
if the Director of CIA calls me on the NM telephone and says, "Retire So & So",
I doubt very much if I'm going to call a Board meeting and seek the advice of the Board.
MR. WARFIELD: Doesn't this also answer Jerry's question: isn't it
possible to circumvent the Board?
MR. ECHOLS: I think unquestionably this could be done. Certainly
it's permissively written in the regulations. However, this Board -- as I indicated
at the last meeting, you are the representatives of the Director in this program.
And obviously, should I, with the authorities delegated to me -- which are not very
great, actually -- should I function, perform, without the authority of the Board,
since the decision I make has to go to the Director I would certainly let him know
that I had done so without the participation of his Board. So I don't think there is
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any point of sensitivity here in practical life at all.
Are there any comments on this?
25X1A9a Naturally, what I had in mind basically
was whether the Board was to be used as a rubber stamp or as a front for
independent action.
MR. ECHOLS: Let me speak to that, Jerry. It seems to me that the
essence of this retirement system is that we have said to Congress we have no way
of determining in advance those employees of our Agency who deserve these benefits
nor those who might need these special benefits by reason of situations beyond their
control -- we can't do it in advance. We also said that. we cannot define with
precision the circumstances of service, conditions of service, the hardships, the
stresses and the strains that will justify an individual being in this system and
deriving the benefits therefrom. Our range of duties and circumstances are so
diverse, and our careers of our people are so fluctuating -- one year they're in this
assignment, the next year in another assignment -- that we can only do this on a
subjective basis, and using good faith, integrity, and knowledge as to what this
man's duties have involved, what his stresses and strains have been. If we are
talking about qualifying service in the United States -- as is permissible here -- 25X1 C
whether this particular type of duty as instructor, or something like
that, does it involve stresses and strains comparable to those overseas. Those
things are all subjective judgments. And in my opinion the Board is going to have
a vital role, a very active role in some of these difficult cases that are going to
come up, which in turn will become precedent establishing to a certain extent, and
I think the task will gradually become easier for the Board, whereas the initial
task might be quite difficult. But in no way do I look upon the Board's activities
as ever becoming a rubber stamp -- I don't see how it could and preserve our
integrity in the administration of this program.
Any other comments on this paper? (No response.)
I think the key question that has bothered everybody from the
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beginning is whether or not participation in this program is to be optional. As a
matter of fact, when this question was first posed I was a little bit shocked, because
I've spent several years with Congress fighting off: how are we going to prevent
people from getting into this system and getting all these goodies, who may not be
deserving thereof. So this was a sudden about switch that no one ever contemplated.
So, on the question as to whether or not the system is to- be
optional with the individual, I'd like to give you my honest opinion. In the eyes of
Congress there is nothing optional about this; in the eyes of the Agency officials
who presented our case to Congress, they never contemplated that this would be a
matter of option to the individual, whatsoever.
25X1A9a
I think when you read the testimony here --
says (reading) : "The problem raises, and I think the problem we have
got to know the answer to, is this, . . . (reading) . . . . 25X1A9a
25X1A9a
That was mine, too. "
Now I'd like to refer you to Section 203 - Participants, of the
actual Act itself -- I beg your pardon, the Section Analysis in the Senate Report.
It says: "This Section sets forth, the legislative standards for determining the
employees who would be participants in the retirement system authorized by the bill
. . . . (reading) . . .
without further approval by the Director. "
25X1A9a
Don't you feel that the inclusion of this requirement
that the man has to sign a statement is one thing that seems to carry with it a
connotation of option?
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MR. ECHOLS: I'd like to make a rather lengthy discourse, I think,
on this option business. First, this retirement program is in essence nothing
more and nothing less than the Civil Service retirement system, basically. However,
it is infinitely better in two respects, and it only has one minor defect or disadvantage,
if you will, which, as I will show you later, is in fact no disadvantage at all. The
improvements are simply these: that if a person retires under this system - the
CIA system - with 10 or more years' service, he gets a higher multiplier - to wit:
a straight 2% times high five salary for each year of service -- whereas under the
Civil Service, as you know, for the first 10 years you get less than a straight 2O/o.
The difference is 3. 75% (and high five). So that is a significant improvement in the
overall formula for computing the annuity.
Now the other major difference, and the real difference that we
were after, is the absence of any penalty for retirement between the ages of 50 and
60. It matters not whether this retirement is optional, or whether it is directjed
or involuntary, there is no penalty for being under age 60, as there is under the
Civil Service -- and this penalty at age 50 is 15% under Civil Service, and it graduates
up to zero at age 60 -- precisely, it's 1% for the first five years below 60, and 2%
for each year thereafter. Now, this is a tremendous thing that any employee in
government would want, if he could get it -- any employee would want this. I'd
love to have it. (a) I would have the option to retire at 50, should I desire; and
(b) I could do so 40 with a 15% greater annuity -- although I don't even have that
option under Civil Service -- it has to be involuntary, discontinued service, with
certain minimal service requirements. So I don't think anybody ever dreamed
that anybody in their right mind would prefer not to enter this system. And I would
submit to you that any person who would prefer to remain out of this system is
either ignorant of the comparison between the two systems, is very suspicious and
fearful of the intentions of the Agency, and fears, erroneously, that this new system,
because of its wording, offers him less job security or tenure than he has today under
Civil Service.
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Now in fact, as I said before, there is nothing in this new bill
detrimental to the individual, barring one minor thing. This bill does not in any
way decrease an individual's job tenure or security -- not one bit -- as was evidenced,
I might add, by our previous 701 exercise, which was conducted and carried out
presumably for the exact same reasons -- that we might in some future years suggest
to some of our people that they retire -- the exact same reasons and the exact same
legislative authority is involved. So the new bill in no way lessens anyone's job
security. So what do you really have here? I wouldn't deny for one moment
that many of our people think the new bill might be detrimental to their interests,
but I submit to you that they are uninformed. But this doesn't correct the
situation, so the only way I know of to cope with this situation is: (a) a low key
educational program; (b) when individual cases of misunderstanding or fear develop,
I would think NAUdIM counselling of the individual by his Career Service, reassuriirg
him and explaining to him the facts of life here; and (c) - and this probably is, with
some people, the only proof of the pudding -- no matter ` what you tell them,
they won't believe it -- some are going to have to learn by experience that their
worst fears didn't materialize and only then will they probably admit that they were
wrong all the time. But I would submit that even if a man thought that his tenure
in the Agency was very tenuous, he is going to bitch about any 10, system - - he's
going to bitch about 701, he's going to bitch about the fact that we have a retirement
bill which says that the Director may indeed direct his retirement.
25X1A9a
What is the minor disadvantage that you mentioned?
MR. ECHOLS: The minor disadvantage is simply this. This bill
being an early retirement bill has a maximum creditable years of service of 35, and
the Civil Service has a maximum creditable service years of 40, and, in addition,
under the Civil Service if you remain in service beyond that your continuing
participation is counted as voluntary contributions. So, there is this difference.
Now it is a fact, I think, that in this Agency particularly, and in
fact in the government in general, the number of people who will have more than
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35 years' service upon retirement is rather slight. Now this leads me -- as
I said, this is really not a]NIM material point, and I'd like to go on to that because
it goes on to another one of the questions that you people raised. There is this
matter of a vested right to remain in the system as long as you are an employee of
CIA, if you so elect, upon completion of 15 years of service, and if you are a
participant in the new system at that time. Now I haven't checked this with
25X1A9a
and I think he initially will dispute this, but in my mind - my simple
mind - if you elect something - If you are to have an election you must have a choice
between at least two things , not just one. So the election, in my opinion, would
be to remain in this system, even though you may transfer elsewhere in CIA -- even
though you may get out of intelligence operations completely and become a graphics
aids man down here in OCI, or IIfM1~i something like that -- but you can elect
to remain in that system for the balance of your employment in CIA. Now if you
retire from CIA you would retire under this retirement program had you made
such an election. I think also a man has the election at that 15 year period to get
out of this system -- but I would submit to you that in fact and in practice no man
would so elect - again, unless he is utterly ignorant as to the relative benefits of
the two systems -- unless some changes take place in the Civil Service retirement
system which suddenly make it very advantageous to him, or unless to a given
individual this ability to get more than 35 years' credit is immediately at hand at
the time he makes that election -- and I don't think this is conceivable.
Now, there is in the testimony here quite conclusive evidence,
in my opinion -- although the bill doesn't say so -- that in addition to this election
to remain in this system or to get out and go back into Civil Service -- the bill only
specifically speaks to the election to stay in -- there is no question in my
mind that we must offer the man another election, and that is the election to - switch
over to Civil Service at the time of his ultimate retirement if so doing is to his
advantage. And I'd like to read the testimony--
25X1 A9a We went to them with language that said the fellow who
had 15 years' service and was a participant shall remain a participant, and the
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part Mr. Echols is going to read is where they took us up on it and said under
some circumstances would it not be an advantage to the man not to remain under it,
and should he not have an election.
MR. ECHOLS: Section 203 is quoted here, and it winds up:
(reading) "Any officer who . . . . . (reading)
Why don't we ask the General? "
I think this makes it quite clear that they didn't want to force
this man by his election to be locked into our retirement system if it should be to his
advantage to retire under some other system.
25X1A9a
What would prevent him, if the Director said -
"All right, you are now 50, you have had 20 years of service, you will retire--"
from saying, "I'll switch to the Civil Service retirement system now. "
MR. ECHOLS: That is the point I'm trying to make to you -- if the
Director says, "You are going to retire", you are going to retire, period.
25X1A9a
It's subject to the approval of the Director, the switch--
MR. BOREL: Switch to411111111111111111116 Civil Service and retire.
MR. ECHOLS: All right, if he wants to switch to Civil Service and
retire he gets ex-percent less annuity -- no person in their right mind would elect
to switch to Civil Service.
25X1A9a
either way.
Your point is the Director could retire him at 50
MR. ECHOLS: Either way -- in the one case he would get an annuity,
in the other he would get a discontinued Civil Service annuity--
25X1A9a
They don't call it retirement, but if you're involuntarily
separated at age 50 with 20 then you become eligible for an annuity, but it's reduced
),5
J, 8%) if you're age 50.
25X1A9a No question about the Director's authority to put a man
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out at 50 with 20 years' service under the Civil Service retirement system--
25X1A9a Actually he is putting them out under 102(c) of the
National Security Act, and he can draw an annuity from the Civil Service retirement
system.
25X1A9a It seems to me the trouble conceptually really
arises because there are two authorities on the books where the Director can bring
about involuntary retirement. Now psychologically it would have been much better
if we had just stuck with the one already on the books, so that this system would
become an advantage. Because in spite of everything you say, Emmett, there are
some misconceptions in the Agency which you're going to have to correct. One is
that the 701 exercise was not generally regarded by the management as a useful
exercise. General Carter is widely quoted on this -- he has spoken from the
platform on it -- as long as he is here there will never be another 701 - quote and
unquote. So this is an agreed idea -- it may be a false one, but it's widely
accepted. The second concept is that the Director of Central Intelligence has
had the authority to eliminate anybody at any time for how many years? - 15? 17?
It has been used once -- other than for individual cases - for this individual and
that one -- but for any reduction in force purpose it has been used once--
Three times, really -- once in OTR, once in the
Management Staff, and once in the DD/P.
MR. BOREL: Psychologically--
25X1A9a Psychologically it has been used once.
MR. BOREL: A man in the new system now would feel that he might
be retired under that system whereas if he were under the other he would not be
pressed out - - that i s the new thing.
MR. ECHOLS: This is the hurdle that has got to be overcome, no
question about it.
25X1A9a Is this true or isn't it true -- is it our intent --
and this gets into the philosophy of this whole exercise -- is the intent to bring
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about early implementation of this Act for the specific purpose of cutting down
our 40 to 50 hump?
MR. ECHOLS: I can't speak authoritatively on this -- Jerry can
speak much more so than I can -- but for his part of the Agency, where the
predominant number of employees in this activity would be, I wouldn't be at all
surprised if there were not some employees of the DD/P who would qualify for
this system who have outlived their usefulness, to a degree, or have proven to be
so marginal in their assignability, and so on, that the DD/P might suggest to them
that they retire voluntarily. And I would expect that these people probably would
retire voluntarily if this was the appraisal of their career prospects.
25X1A9a
Voluntarily?
MR. ECHOLS: Yes. We don't know, and will not know ultimately,
how many people will apply for optional early retirement. If enough do, there
will never be a bind caused by upper age bracket Clandestine Services people for
whom we can't find cover abroad, or senior operations people who are so badly
blown that they can only marginally be utilized abroad, or a large block of people
who have impediments and who cannot go abroad. If enough people optionally
voluntarily leave we would never have a need to use this.
MR. BOREL: I don't think that follows. We could have the very
percentage leave that you wished to retain. In that case if you let them go you
would have left the ones that you hoped to use this system for.
MR. WARFIELD: The regulation says the option is with the Director.
MR. ECHOLS: I cannot conceive of the Director holding a man that
wants to go for more than 12 or 18 months -- I can't conceive that the Director
would hold a man who honestly wanted out. And this is true, you do lose people,
perhaps some good people, but you lose some good people every year anyhow.
25X1A9a I have two sort of related questions. You have
mentioned two ways we can now get rid of people - 701 and 102(c). How about the
50 and 20 involuntary retirement that exists within the Civil Service. This can
be implemented separately from 701, can't it?
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MR. BOREL: They are identical.
MR. ECHOLS: Yes, that is used every day. I would say we have a
dozen or so cases a year -- more than that -- of discontinued service annuities
for 50 and 20.
25X1A9a That doesn't require 701--
MR. ECHOLS: It requires the separation of a man under the
Director1s authority.
25X1A9a That is a general Civil Service authority, isn't it,
throughout the government, that anyone who is 50 years of age and has 20 years of
service may be involuntarily separated?,
25X1A9a If he is involuntarily separated not for cause he is
eligible for an immediate annuity under Civil Service. In CIA the termination
authority is 102(c).
25X1A9a But is it clear that it must be -- couldn't it be
either for cause--
25X1A9a It could be because you abolished his job, or you had a rif-=
Because he is no longer useful to the Agency.
Now what is not clear in my mind, and I think gets back to one
of the major points, is people feel that mandatory separation will come much easier
under this new bill, that is, there won't be the requirement for complete documentation,
or anything of that sort, but merely that for a wide variety of reasons we think it
well that he leaves. All right, it is easier under the new bill than it is under the
Civil Service 50 and 20.
MR. ECHOLS: Under our regulations now we have to proffer charges
against an individual of some ift kind of substandard performance in order to
separate him for unsatisfactory work. To do this we afford the man a hearing, and
it's expensive, it's time-consuming, and you hesitate to throw the book at a man -
fire the man, if you will.
25X1A9a
What will be the procedure for involuntary retirement
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MR. ECHOLS: I imagine the Director before he will sign his name
and say that Johnny Jones shall retire, will ask for a complete case to be presented
to him as to why this individual should be directed to retire, just as he now says:
You present to me a thorough study as to why this man should be 1111111111111111111110 fired.
But it will be much easier.
5X1A9a
The regulation says: "Ordinarily, the recommendation
to retire a participant under the provisions of this paragraph shall originate with
the Head of his Career Service who shall provide a full statement of the reasons
for such recommendation."
25X1A9a I'm only trying to say that people are not completely
2
wrong when they say, "It's going to be easier laft to get rid of me--
25X1A9a They do have and the regulation provides for an appeal --
first, when it has been recommended and it is then referred to this Board to
consider, and the Board says, "Yes, we agree he shall go" - they will give him an
opportunity to present his case. Then the case goes on up to the Director, and
the Director says, "I involuntarily retire you" - the man still has an appeal, and
it will go to the IG--
MR. ECHOLS: I doubt if the Director in his own mind is going to
really differentiate materially between his firing a man, if you will -- is directing
the guy's retirement under one bill or is firing him under some other provision --
in either case the individual is being separated from his job. Now the reason
the Director might do so with a little less compunction is because he knows the
broad operational needs, and he may have to get rid of this person or these persons
because their skills are no longer required, or because they are constipating the
Clandestine Services, if you will, with their immobility--
MR. BOREL: And the penalty to the individual isn't so great--
MR. ECHOLS: And the penalty to the individual has been greatly
overcome -- so he can do so with greater compassion and greater motivation, in
one sense, I suppose.
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25X1A9a
I think what you have said here is true -- I think
the psychological effect that is permeating the Agency arises out of the fact that
people have this misconception that you can get them out faster under this, and
that really it's a tool that is being given to the Director. So I feel that this
educational program that you are going to have to develop here can't be on the low
key that you indicate, I think it's going to have to be a high key. But what I'm
trying to get to now is let's look back at these two pages that you just read. I'm
thinking now in a % clean vein, that we are not thinking of involuntary separation,
but, rather, a case where the man has a choice. Now have you interpreted that,
at least in this case where a man has had 15 years of Agency service, five of which
are qualifying, that he may elect to stay under this system or to go back to the
Civil Service.
MR. ECHOLS: This is the way I would think right now.
25X1A9a
Does he have that choice at this point when he finishes
his 15th year, or when he has gotten his five years of qualifying service after his
15, or does he stay under it until he is ready to retire -- can he make that choice
early, or does he have to make it late.
MR. ECHOLS: I would force him, I think, to make his election at
that point -- and I think it's implied here -- and it doesn't bother me to force him
to make that determination then because I think it's an early indication of his
acceptance of the Agency's possible need to manage its manpower.
25X1A9a
Then you do admit that this is at least one case
of an exception to your earlier statement that he does not have an option--
MR. ECHOLS: Now we're talking about the option to be a participant --
that is one thing. I say I don't believe there should be any option here. I don't
even think it's appropriate, because the system is so damn much better in
every way, except perhaps psychologically with some people.
25X1A9a To, there are cases right now -- I can give you a
number of cases where an individual might prefer not to be a participant, where he
has the 15--
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MR. ECHOLS: I'd think he was an idiot--
25X1A9a He would have to retire at 60. If he can stay on
until 62 with Civil Service then he can make up the three and three-quarter points
he loses, so he is ahead one more quarter -- and I'm talking for myself now,
because I'm that close. So you're ahead, really, by remaining under Civil Service.
So the man does have a choice. Maybe the Congressman couldn't indicate
examples, but I can give you a lot of them. I have had them come into my office
on that point -- they would prefer to remain until 62. So if they have the 15 and 5
this is one place where they do have that election either to stay on and retire under it
or to stay on two more years and they would be ahead of the game by one-quarter
of a percent, and they would prefer to stay on two more years. Now this point
has bothered me, and so to me that is an election of sorts that doesn't make it
compulsory.
MR. ECHOLS: Let me speak one second, Mike. If we followed
through on my previous proposal, that should a ~nan stay under our system, when
the time comes for him to retire of his own volition or otherwise, we give him a
last option -- you pick as between the two, and take whichever is more beneficial --
I think even this wouldn't hurt there--
25X1A9a
But I was going to raise the question if the person
elected not to stay under this after he has his five qualifying years, and he goes
to Civil Service, immediately after the 15th year, when he has qualified, can he
come back to the other system?
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR. WARFIELD: You said he could (indicating Mr. Echols).
Are we going to get involved in a transfer of
MR. ECHOLS: There would have to be a new determination--
Are we going to be estopped -- having made the
election at 15 years - now I want to be in Civil Service, does this require then taking
the money out of our funds and putting it back in Civil Service, so the person may be
estopped from later on wanting to go in under the program -- because he qualified once,
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he continued to remain in his same Career Service, he has all the other qualifications
25X1A9a He would not be estopped because the money has gone
back to Civil Service, because that would just be a bookkeeping thing. But he would
not be put back under the system on the basis of the first time he was in it -- he
couldn't say, "I was qualified once, therefore I still am" -- he would have to meet
currently at the time he wants to go back under the system the requirements to be
a participant.
25X1A9a I've given them to you -- he has met all six
requirements -- he is still a member of the --
25X1A9a
e meets all of the requirements, yes, he can be put
And we are not going to be bothered with this
business of going from one fund to another.
25X1A9a
I think he would be smart to stay under this system
until 60, and if he saw he could stay on for two more years, then, at that time,
make a second election and go to the Civil Service--
MR. ECHOLS: He is only going to stay on if they want him to stay on.
25X1A9a No, I'm assuming they are going to keep him--
MR. ECHOLS: This retirement system is for the people who are
engaged in foreign intelligence, right? - foreign intelligence activities. And it
has a compulsory retirement age of 60, or 65 if you're a GS-18. Now the only
way that man is going to stay on past 60, Mike, is if the Director determines it's
in the interest of the Agency to keep him on.
25X1A9a
Only if the Director can exercise this right or
does exercise this right if the individual is a participant in the program, but if he
has elected to get out he is no longer a participant in the program -- unless he is
going to involuntarily separate you -- and I'm not talking about where the man isn't
doing his job, I'm talking about the man who is dodng his job, the DD/P wants to
keep him--
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MR. ECHOLS: He goes to the Director and gets the authority to
keep him -- that is a provision of the law.
25X1A9a
u are authorized to get a waiver for up to five years.
It might be far more difficult to go to the Director
MR. ECHOLS: We are not going to give the individual, it seems to me,
the option to thwart the intent of the law and the intent of the regulatory system -
the retirement system we asked Congress to give us. If we're giving a loophole to
the individual, this would be ridiculous--
25X1A9a
That isn't what the Congress said --
MR. ECHOLS: The Congress said the compulsory retirement age
shall be 60 for those below 18, but they give the Director authority to extend--
25X1A9a
If he stays in this system. I'm not arguing that.
But here's a man at the end of 15 years' service and 5 years of qualifying service,
and he says, "I don't want to retire early -- I'd prefer to retire under Civil Service --
therefore I elect not to remain under this system, I want to remain under Civil
Service. " I'm assuming the guy isn't going to jump back and forth - hes going
to retire under Civil Service. Now if he never qualified and he was a good man
the Director and everybody else would keep him on to 6Z.
25X1A9a
MR. ECHOLS: Why not 60? We have an Agency policy on 60, Mike.
MR. BOREL: If you have 30 years.
Well, he doesn't have 30 years.
MR. ECHOLS: I would think a new policy would apply to people who
are eligible for this retirement system, which would be 60 -- in other words, if
60 is indeed the compulsory retirement age for people in this field of work, it should
be 60 for this man, even though he elects to go over to the Civil Service retirement
system.
25X1A9a
Then you have destroyed the point I made that the
extra two years -- age 62 -- that is a nice interpretation.'
MR. ECHOLS: We set up a new set of rules for a certain group of
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people, and those rules would automatically, I would think, become policy with respect
to those people who are eligible for that system, and if it was 60 it would be 60.
25X1A9a
I would think, though, that that wouldn't be logical
unless the non-qualifying people who never were under the system wouldralso have
to leave at 60 -- and that doesn't seem to be the policy now, unless they've had 30
years.
MR. ECHOLS: Roger, I don't follow that.
5X1A9a
Well, a man who has not had 30 years when he reaches
60 he therefore now remains until 62, under the Agency policy. I don't see that
if he is never under the system and can remain until he is 62 how it would be
consistent with what you said would undoubtedly be policy if he were under the
system and then elected to get out of it.
MR. ECHOLS: The very justification that McCone and Carter and
the Agency made to Congress is that this group of people by and large should be a
younger group of people --
25X1 A9a Two groups of people, one of whom could stay until
62 if they hadn't gotten 30 years of creditable service under Civil Service--
MR. ECHOLS: And the other is maximum compulsory retirement
age of 60 -- and there is a reason for that, and the reason that the Agency asked
for this was that we wanted a younger group here. Now they reserve the
right to extend a man if they find his services are so valuable -- but as a basic
rule they want him out at the latest by 60.
MR. BOREL: In comparison not so much between the new system
and 62 but as between the new system and Civil Service, which is 70 -- so we are
not talking about two years, we're talking about a 10-year difference here.
25X1A9a
You were talking about that special group, that
25 to 30 percent that General Carter went over and pleaded for -- and regardless
of whether that man drops out, he is still one of that 25 to 30 percent -- so the
circumstances haven't changed.
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25X1A9a
I think there are other people in the DD/P that
are not going to be able to retire under this, and I don't see why you penalize this
fellow who has gone overseas and done your work for you but the fellow who sits
behind a desk here can stay until he's 62.
MR. -ECHOLS: He constitutes one member - one member of this
group of people for whom the Agency has said collectively we cannot give all of
these people the full working career, we must reduce the average age of our
retirees, we must limit the maximum age, with a new 60 year maximum -- it was
our intention, our need that we do this. We are not penalizing him. And indeed,
from here on out, Mike -- and we testified to this extent -- in our recruitment of
people we must make known to them that they are not assured of the normal Civil
Service working span, that they might be among those who will have to do with a
shortened career. And in order to make employment and a career acceptable in
the face of this uncertainty as to a full working career we've got to have a carrot
4NW to dangle in front of this person's nose -- we have to show them that should
they be so unfortunate as to have a shorter career that we have made a compensatory
provision for them, to - wit: an annuity - an immediate annuity, and at a very
handsomely computed rate.
25X1A9a But now you are using the act as an instrument to
get the person out, and that is what is bothering a lot of people. I can see a lot
of people saying, for instance to Jim here: I don't think I want to go overseas, Jim,
anymore, because I'd have to retire at 60, and I'd like to stay on until 62, and
therefore, I've never been under the act, I've got four and a half years of qualified
service -- and in the case of this person Jim has to be content with going along
with him -- he has been a good man, and he wants to keep him--
MR. ECHOLS: Mike, I can't argue this. The Agency has said we
must have this. We must have this in order to make our manpower situation
tenable -- we must have this authority, we must reduce the ages of this group.
And you say - yes, but that impinges upon the individual's desires' in life -- so
we turn around and say we won't implement this plan if the individual doesn't want it?
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25X1A9a
But you are arguing now, it seems to me, entirely
from the point of view of an individual that the Agency wants to get rid of. Now
many of the arguments that were presented before the Congress had to do with
individuals the Agency would like to have kept but the person's skills were no longer
in demand,. and it would have been foolhardy for the Agency - they wouldn't have
been operating efficiently if they had retained that person any longer -- it didn't
make any difference what age he was -- he could have been 70 -- if his skills were
still in demand they might have insisted on him staying, but the skills have ceased,
and they wanted a means of saying to that person: We can't retain you any longer
but we want to give you a better retirement than we can give you under Civil Service -
you are entitled to it, you are a fine fellow, and we want to do this. But the
argument you are giving me here. seemed to relate almost entirely to the Director's
wanting to get rid of people so that he can constantly have a younger service as though a man 62--
MR. ECHOLS: This never speaks to the individual, Mike, it speaks
in generalities - r the general composition profile of the group. We have said
it has to be youngish, because we can't find enough cover for these older people
abroad. Is this true or is it false?
25X1A9a
That's a new one -- I have never heard that before.
MR. ECHOLS: We have testified on an obvious fact, that as a person
grows older he and his family have more physical impediments which prevent
overseas service. Is this true or false? How many people can you carry back
here at Headquarters and find constructive work for? I don't know the answer to
wt,
this. We have testified to this. We have said we must have this -- these are
the facts of life in our business -- and we can't give the individual, then, the
choice -- "Well, that doesn't apply to me -- I'd like to stay around. "
25X1A9a
Mike, I wonder how great a problem this is. I happen
to be in a similar category to you. But aren't you really saying that if the man
is all this good at age 60 that the chances are his Service will request a two-year
waiver? It seems to me it is as simple as that. If you are not all that good then
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the bill is right in saying he should be out at 60.
25X1A9a
Maybe you are right about that, but the various
Directorates on the other retirement panel on which I sit don't operate that way.
Some won't go to bat -- they think the Agency policy of retiring at 62 means
precisely that; others didn't think, for a long period of time, it didn't mean that
at all, and we had very few cases come up before that panel or Board, because they
kept deferring it.
Well, I have occupied the time of this Board too much now
with this problem.
MR. ECHOLS: I do think, Mike, one point should be made. I don't
see how the Agency as a principle can seek a special retirement program which
has a lower, reduced mandatory retirement age,in a program which provides for a
much richer annuity, on the premise that these people are going to have shorter
careers, and then turn right around and say we should give the individual the right
to sidestep this program if he chooses to do so. This is inconceivable to me.
25X1A9a It sure is, you're right.
May I ask another question? We seem to be dealing primarily
with people who have passed 50, and the various problems that come up. Looking
at it for the longer haul, and following your statement that in designation as a
participant there should be no question of option, I get back to the statement now --
assuming we went through this act of compiling the information now based on what
requires eligibility, and we come to the young fellows, or the 35 or 40 year olds --
and we say: You look like a type who qualifies, because either you have had the
five years or you're in work that will normally bring five years, and therefore we
are recommending you for designation, and attached is a statement for you to sign.
Now regardless of how wonderful this bill is, for a variety of reasons we're going to
have the man who is going to -say, "I don't want to sign it -- I think I'd rather stay
with Civil Service. " Now you may try and convince him that this doesn't mean
you're going to be let out before age 60 -- but he looks around at Joe and Fred who
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were let out, and he says, "I don't want to sign it. It What is going to happen? You
can't designate him as a participant without his signing it. I mean, do you think we
are going to fire that man?
25X1A9a Is there a way out of that, though -- that at a time we put
a man into say your Service, you have him sign an acceptance of the obligations of
your Service -- get his signature on a Service agreement at the time he is assigned
to your Service, not in connection with going into this system but in connection with
going into the Commo Service--
25X1A9a
So the man when he gets ready to sign it says, "What
does this mean?" Do you surface it or don't you?
MR. ECHOLS: I think we will have to surface it -- and actually in
future years in our recruitment, for example, of JOTs, I certainly would. I would
surface it the minute that a man is about to become a career employee of a Career
Service -- he should know that these are the hazards in making my career in this
area of Service, and these are the benefits I derive if I'm unlucky enough to go out--
25X1A9a
This, as I say, is the only obstacle. I'm trying to
think what we tell our senior people in the field when a man says, "I don't want to
sign it. " All we could tell the man is we don't know - this is a matter for the
Career Service Board to decide -- but sooner or later it's going to hit here and we
are going to have ex-number of people say, "I don't want to sign. " Now maybe
some can be convinced they are wrong, but for the few who don't want to sign it
are we ready to face up to what are you going to do about it?
MR. BOREL: What do you tell a man you want to go overseas and he
doesn't want to go?
25X1A9a If that is the decision it's pretty easy to implement --
when you ask what do you do if he doesn't want to go overseas, we give him maybe a
second chance and then cut him. But if you are saying that that is really ~r
significant -- if you're going to let the man out--
MR. ECHOLS: I think we do have two problems here. In the long haul
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I can easily see a man signing a Service agreement -- I'm not advocating the one
we handed out -- at the time he enters a Career Service and accepts the obligations
of service that are involved in a career in that area. He will be young, at the
beginning of his career -- it's like a reserve officer going on active duty in the
military services - he knows that in all probability he is going to have a short
20-year career, but he also knows if he does go out he is going to get an immediate
annuity for the rest of his life. So this here is the quid pro quo. Now the Foreign
Service has the same thing, for heaven's sake -- they know that they are subject to
a selection out program--
25X1A9a I agree -- I don't think we will have a big problem in
the recruitment of young boys if we say to them right at the outset: You know, it
takes you three years, but ultimately you will be a member of this thing, and you
sign this statement now. Because the kid of 22 or 25 - he never is going to be 50,
and I don't think he worries about it. And I think most will sign it. But we have
a big transition period here.
MR. ECHOLS: This is the other part of the problem I'm talking about,
the transition period, if late in some peoples' careers this new thing comes up.
They have had some inkling for some years now, as has the Agency as a whole,
that the Agency seeks a less than 70 year retirement age for its people. We have
a policy on the books, and have had for five years - 60/30, 62/5 or more, is our
desired retirement age, and we have been implementing this, and it has worked
very, very well. So I think every person in the Agency knows that the Agency has
an early retirement policy right today - right today - and has known it for five years.
But even then we make exceptions on the basis of humanitarian reasons, compassionate
reasons -- we make exceptions when the Deputy Director says, "This guy is too good
25X1A9ato let go right now" -- the
the Matt Bairds-- there are many of these
around -- and this is fine. But to say, "Well, this person is only a GS-7 clerk,
a damn good clerk" -- but the Deputy Director doesn't say,
"This guy has to
stay - he is so important. " The simple fact is that clerk may or may not be that
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important, but it's less likely to lower the grade (if the person) is that less essential.
These are the facts of life. Maybe a clerk just doesn't get that much attention in an
organization, but these are the facts of life.
25X1A9a Mr. Echols, could we ask our legal adviser to reconsider
the question of whether we have to have a new agreement signed now by all of the
people here who at some time in their careers have already signed some statement--
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
I made the assumption you had to have this new
I have only asked about this once, and his
top of the head answer was the old career staff form, as an example, would not do.
But what I'm thinking of, this requirement stems from our own testimony that the
people we were talking about had accepted the obligations of the kind of service we
were talking about, and I don't think that Congress meant we should go around at this
point and get them accepted all over again. I would like to ask John to reconsider
his earlier position that we do have to get a new statement now from people who have
already signed -- and many of the people we have now have signed the old career
staff form.
MR. ECHOLS: It does embrace this stipulated requirement, does it
25X1A9a
Yes, it covers the requirement -- it happens to say
that consideration for this is membership in the Career Staff.
25X1A9a Which I think was John's reason for saying it wouldn't
serve for this purpose. But I'd like to ask him again, because I think this new
service agreement is giving a lot of us trouble.
25X1A9a
I'd like to see the new service agreement use
the precise language of paragraph 2 or 3 of the act, so the individual knows exactly
what he is signing, and it's a legal document rather than one phrased in a general
language.
25X1A9a
MR. WARFIELD: Don't you think a lot of this is psychological?
May I enters a statement of philosophy in the
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record? - because we are preoccupied with the negative aspects of this. It's
essentially a restatement of what I said last week, but I have attempted to make it
more precise. And I would like to preface it by saying when I use the words
but
"clandestine operational activity" I am not speaking with prejudice/with respect
STATSPEC
to any kind of overseas service - etc. This isn't the problem I am dealing
with. " I believe it is of the utmost importance in the administration of the new Act
that we preserve the idea or concept that we are establishing a system within the
Agency which offers the individual employee who accepts the discipline of clandestine
operational activity, advantages, status, and compensation not available to other
both
Agency employees. This is the thought that emerges clearly from reading/the
Act and the testimony of Agency officials leading to the legislation. It must be
a constant objective of Agency leadership and personnel management to further
enhance and support the idea that the Agency give special recognition to the individual
who undertakes a career in the type of service to which this Act relates. Thus,
the intent of the Agency to develop additional career benefits recognizing the
character of the service of this type must be implicit in the administration of the
new Act, the first step in the history of CIA to give such recognition. To initiate
an involuntary reduction in force directly and exclusively related to the new Act in
the system would defeat at the outset the broader positive purposes of creating the
system. Involuntary retirement from the Agency after 50 or at any other time
should not be directly related to the system, } however, participation in the system
gives the individual an advantage should he be retired under any existing authority---
this is a fine distinction and has more to do with the spirit in which this Act is
implemented than what actually happens. End of statement.
25X1A9a
If you do mean to include other than the clandestine
services why not rephrase that particular term so that it is apparent immediately
to anybody that it is not exclusively the Clandestine Services.
25X1A9a
Common and other qualifying service.
last point I think is of tremendous importance.
MR. ECHOLS: In my own opinion if we have anything that even looks
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like a reduction in force in this group in the next five years we are very, very foolish.
I think it would be rather disastrous for morale, myself. I think in selected cases
individuals can be counselled and maybe early retirement and a new, second career,
might be to their advantage. I don't call this a reduction in force, I call this
career counselling. I think this should happen -- probably will happen. But I
don't think any reduction in force is contemplated, in fact. I know of none.
25X1A9a
It is envisaged that we would blanket in the
group of employees which definitely includes young, secretarial help and certain
other categories of young employees who statistically seem to be the transient
element in the Agency, although their immediate service may be overseas and fall
under the heading of qualifying service. Wouldn 't we complicate the system
unduly if we didn't make some arrangement to delay the entrance of this type of
individual until some possibility of a career--
MR. ECHOLS: Let me give you some background on this -- it's
historic background now. We have made some efforts to keep out the turnover
crowd with our three years' service, age 25. This does keep the young secretary
or clerk out of the picture, by and large. However, you will remember we
originally went forward to get a retirement system which for all practical purposes
was identical to the Foreign Service system, and that retirement system has some
benefits particularly in the area of death and disability, which are of course related
to the health and other hazards of overseas service, and these benefits were very,
very desirable -- including complete non-taxability of certain things, and better
benefits for widows, and that sort of thing. If we deferred putting people under
this system during the first ten years of their overseas service, for example, we
would be depriving them of the very benefits we would like to give them - the benefits
which were commensurate with the hazards and the stresses that go with that type
of service. So our original intent was to get people under this system at the
earliest possible date, and if we were wrong later on and their careers shifted, or
they didn't stay with us, or maybe they did only one tour abroad, we still wanted
them to get the death and disability benefits if they were killed or disabled abroad
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during that one tour -- so we approached it from that point of view, because the
system we were after made this highly desirable to the individual. And then
suddenly -- and I do mean suddenly -- we completely lost this retirement system
and were thrown back on the Civil Service system, in which we had to fight to get
the improved benefits that we wanted, but the old administrative concept of getting
people into this system as quickly as possible, and how we were going to review
this group to correct any errors which history or time showed were erroneous
judgments, remain -- and we had no choice in this matter. That is another
reason why I want to point out our administrative system has been with this thing
all the way through, and I think we are stuck with this integral part of the statute
today.
I can see your point - let's leave people out of this thing, because
there are no benefits, really, until the time comes to retire -- and that is true today
but it wasn't true when we started out. In fact, there were tremendous benefits
from the very beginning.
25X1A9a So these are not in the Act that we have?
MR. ECHOLS: No.
25X1A9a
So the individual secretary twenty-five and a
half years old actually gets no benefits as long as she stays with the Agency only
ten years.
MR. ECHOLS: That is right. It's true this is going to be a bit
of a paper mill, but who knows but what ultimately she will qualify for a very nice
benefit. The odds are against it, perhaps.
25X1A9a
Could we get some clarification this afternoon on
numerical limitations placed on this during the first ten years? How is this going
to relate to acceptance into the system during those first ten years? What was
the reason for this limitation at the start -- which I assume is not applicable
after ten years -- as I understand it, there is no limitation thereafter.
MR. ECHOLS: First let me say that the attitude of Congress was
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one of protect the Treasury against a raid -- prevent people who don't deserve these
very fine retirement benefits from getting them. And despite all the assurances
that we give them that our integrity was not to be questioned, and notwithstanding
the criteria we set up for entry into the system, notwithstanding our administrative
system of reviewing to purge the system of those who don't continue to deserve these
benefits, they were afraid of it -- there's no question about it, they were afraid of it.
And almost to the very end -- and you can correct me on the exact date -- almost to
the very final day they were going to put a numerical limit on the number of people
who could be in this system. And notwithstanding the fact that we had testified
that this only will affect approximately 25 or 30 percent of our Agency population,
they didn't like these percentage figures, and they wanted to hang an absolute
numerical limit on the number of people who could be put into this system. Well,
this wasn't (logical), and we argued against this. And again I say at the last
minute -- at the last minute -- they put in djMMpMW this quota on the number of
persons who could retire in the first and second five-year periods. We had
absolutely no control over this.
Now the estimate of 25 to 30 percent that we gave the Committee
was based on some pretty accurate guesses as to the numbers of people who are
engaged in overseas activities of the Agency at any given time, and then inflated
by a significant factor to represent the turnover -- we have some of our overseas
people who are serving overseas today and their rotations, let's say, are back here
in Washington -- so it's a much larger figure than the overseas population. So we
felt that we were quite safe, and quite sincere, and quite honest in giving this figure
of 25 to 30 percent. On the numerical limitation - the quota on the number of
retirements we did have some say -- we fought on this one -- and we made a fast
review, based upon some pretty accurate age and service statistics - machine runs, if
you will - on people in these career fields, and we thought we could live with about
300 during the next four years, and we thought in the 400 we got we had a good, safe
margin. But by golly, nobody - NOBODY - can actually say how many 50 year olds
are going to step up and say, "I want out. " I can't swear that 400 is going to be
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enough, but I believe it is. In fact, I think we must accept the fact that by and
large people don't want to retire early -- people don't like to make radical changes
in their careers, especially in late middle ages -- so I don't expect a stampede of
people to retire early. On the other hand, who knows? Now it would certainly
be different in your (indicating ) Service. 25X1A9a
25X1A9a Well, even in ours I feel sure we are going to be able
to live within the quota.
MR. ECHOLS: I honestly don't believe we should worry about this quota
thing -- and certainly not until we get some indication as to what the calls for
early retirement are going to be on the optional or voluntary basis. And we do
have the means, of course, for putting the brakes on, if necessary. And we can
always go back to Congress, if we see fit, to apply for a change. But I don't think
it's a problem, Roger.
25X1A9a I don't want to leave the impression that we're going to
be heavy. Its heavier than we thought - - we thought almost nobody would want
out. The fact that we have 13 or 15 who are saying yes, is still not a tremendous
25X1A9a
percentage.
MR. BOREL: May I make one suggestion? I would like to applaud
_ positive approach, and I find this kind of discussion helpful, but
I think we could do it for ten more sessions and still not get down to cases. I'd
like to continue the discussion but I'd like to see at the next meeting five cases that
are ready to go, and start discussing them, without any idea that we would dispose
of them but to get right down to cases.
25X1A9a
What happened to the proposal that assumptions
were going to be (met)? Assumptions have emerged today. The` assumption
that the individual will be designated regardless of his desires - that seems to be an
assumption. A second assumption is that the individual who has completed his
15 years may elect to stay in this system and he may elect to disengage from this
system - this seems to be another assumption. And you clarified the assumption
with respect to secretaries.
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MR. ECHOLS: These are assumptions on my part as of this 4MMOWM
25X1A9a
But the idea last week that I proposed was that
even if we can't get agreement on these assumptions, complete them and then go to
the Directorates and ask them to then apply the Act to the people and come back with
a statistical appreciation of what the impact will be..
MR. ECHOLS: I read and re-read several times your proposal at the
last meeting, Jim, and I'm afraid I don't feel competent at this moment to say what
our assumptions are on all these things. I think we are still feeling our way. I
think it's a little premature to try to do that. And I think the package that we do
come up with should be quite complete and not leave a lot of unanswered questions.
25X1A9a So we are still working toward developing
those assumptions.
MR. ECHOLS: I hope so. They will almost be more than assumptions
when the smoke clears away -- I think they will almost be our interpretation of the
plan, of the law and regulations, and how it will be workable--
25X1A9a
Are you backing off from that proposal (that you))
made last week? I get the impression that you are.
MR. ECHOLS: I'd like to suspend it for a little bit, Jim.
Another thought that occurs to me that I haven't voiced before --
and it comes to Paul's point -- I think there are somethings we are just never going
to know the answers to until we do get the individual cases under consideration,
and I don't think we can even guess the answers-
MR. BOREL: From the standpoint of answering questions that may
never be asked--
25X1A9a
attacking -- one is the retirement case and the other is the membership in the system,
and I'm not sure you are going to learn anything about membership in the system
from considering retirement cases.
MR. ECHOLS: I think we will, and I'll tell you why. Supposing we have
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w a case of a man who meets all of the qualifications for participation, he is
nominated by his CS because he meets all the qualifications, perhaps he has or is
perfectly willing to sign the service obligation, but he says, "I don't want to be in
the system. " What are you going to do with a case like that? Well, it comes to
the Board, and the man is going to give his reasons why he does not want to be a
participant in the system. And, as you know, only the Director can decide who is
in the system, so a case like this would have to go to the Director, in my opinion,
with the Board's recommendation, with my recommendation. Now I don't know
what peculiar set of personal circumstances the individual has for his request --
and 1- right here may be the answer to many of our problems -- it may go to the
Director, we may recommend that this individual's reasons be accepted, and so the
Director says, "Okay, I'll exclude this individual, at his request, from this system.
I don't know, this may be the answer to many of our individual problems, but we
will never know what the individual problems are -- you know some, Mike,
apparently -- until we see them.
25X1A9a I have a problem, too, with some of the statements
in the regulation that has been drafted -- what do they mean. So if we
could ask some questions on that, and ask just what was intended here -- because
I can read one thing and go one way, and read the same thing someplace else and
go another way. And I have in mind the designation on page 7. Now if you
follow the six requisites and you stop there, this to me means -- that last
paragraph means to me that if a person just had two months in a qualifying position
he could be designated, assuming he meets all the other qualifications, provided
he can within 15 years get his 60 months of qualified service. Now then when you
go to the next paragraph, the redetermination of designation, then I'm thrown into
a tizzy when I come to the 5th anniversary review, the 10th anniversary review,
and the 15th anniversary review.
25X1A9a I am, too.
So there are a few things.in the regulations
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themselves that I feel we ought to discuss and get the benefit of your expert advice,
and the thinking of the members of the Board here as to how they look at this,
before we can answer some of these questions.
MR. ECHOLS: I agree with you completely. I think one of our
immediate tasks is to go through these regulations from A to Z, find out if there
are any questions of interpretation, try to develop a common understanding as to
interpretation, see if there are defects in language where a change in wording, not
in substance, would help clarify things, and so on.
25X1A9a
1 And then one other thing, Mr. Chairman --
suppose we found, and we were in unison on this, that certain wording in here ought
to be changed to fulfill the intent, to whom do we have to go back to? - to any member
of Congress, or to this group of experts?
MR. ECHOLS: I believe if it's changes in wording which our legal
people will say has no substantive effect in regard to the interpretation or meaning
that may have been given to the provision by the members of Congress who
previously reviewed this, that we could make such changes. But I think any
substantive change of any kind would have to go back to the two Committees of
Congress, the Bureau of the Budget, and certainly back to the Director, and whether
he wants to call in his panel of attorneys again, to protect himself, I don't know.
I would suggest that if there were minor changes we can do it, if it seems to be
important enough, but I would urge extreme caution in trying to make any significant
changes.
25X1
25X1A9a A9a
I think we ought really to let come in to
discuss this next week. I believe, though, he will feel that to go to the Director
with anything that even has a comma, almost, different from what the panel of
attorneys approved, and BOB approved, he would be very reluctant for us to do that.
He hasn't answered clearly yet the question of whether - say two years from now
we want to change something in the regulation we do have to go this
whole approval circuit again if it is not a substantive change -- he hasn't ruled
positively on that. I think John's feeling is he doesn't want to go to the Director
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with anything other than what has gotten the external approvals, and I think we
should let him speak for himself next week.
25X1A9a
I agree with Paul's proposal that we start discussing
some specific, concrete cases, instead of the abstract discussions we have had
so far, and I think the policy questions and other questions will emerge within the
context of the specific cases that we discuss. I would like to suggest that you
bring some specific cases to the Board for us to discuss, because I think we will
learn by doing, and perhaps make faster progress.
MR. ECHOLS: Wouldn't you agree, Roger, though, that we should
first develop unanimity of opinion on interpretation of the regulations?
25X1A9a
Would we not do that--
MR. BOREL: No. That is the reason the courts will not take up
moot cases, because they don't mean anything except in a particular application.
That is the way you put life into these words. We will learn when we have to
apply a paragraph to a case.
25X1A9a
I strongly feel that is going to be a good way to secure
unanimity, to identify the questions and areas where clarification is needed --
because then we will be discussing concrete cases, which is what eventually will
be the Board's major task anyway.
25X1A9a
I worry a little bit about giving all of our time to
just the retirement aspect, however, because I think the second aspect of it - the
participation - is equally important, and probably more so, for the long haul.
And I'm still wondering if there isn't some way, without a lot more words being
written, for keeping it as vague (as it may be), of beginning to try and hit the
Board with designations of participants as well.
MR. ECHOLS: Well, it was my original hope that we could start
immediately the process of reviewing the service records of people,
reviewing their careers, and developing the list of nominations. And we have the
rosters ready to go go out to the various Career Services of people who might
have immediate eligibility for retirement - i. e., 50/20, 10/5 - and this would start
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the process. It has to be done ultimately anyhow, and this is the group of most
imminent concern and interest. I'd like to get this started, frankly, at an early
date -- which was one reason I tried to rush us into a review of procedures last
week.
25X1A9a But from a fiscal standpoint -- I'm probably talking
for Byron -- I don't imagine you would want to take an awful lot of actions on
retirements until you get the entire body of people into the thing, too.
MR. ECHOLS: No, but there are several weeks of work, I'm sure,
in just this initial group.
25X1A9a I think all of us anticipated that would probably be
one of the very first things we would do. That is why I raised this question of
designation -- if you were to hand us that right now I wouldn't know how to apply
"f" under designation in light of the next page.
25X1A9a
Page 7, 8, and 8a have all the key questions.
If you would just go through those two and a half pages I think you would really
help us all a great deal, Emmett -- because quite independently several of us--
MR. ECHOLS: Okay, "Designation of Participants. Designation -
In order to qualify for designation as a participant, an employee must: (a) Be at
least 25 years of age; (b) Have successfully completed three years of Agency
service. " I'd like to stop right here. Originally we picked this up from our
machinery for converting people from provisional status to career
status. By our regulations today these are two requirements. We don't want
to mess around with people who are newcomers to the business, who haven't
established a foothold, at least.
Any questions on (a), (b), and (c) ? (No response.)
!'(c) Have signed a written obligation to serve anywhere and at
any time according to the needs of the Agency. " This was based upon General
Carter's testimony in response to the direct question: Are these people,like the
people in the military, like the people in the Foreign Service, obliged to serve
anywhere at any time. General Carter made this absolutely clear. Ultimately
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we got stuck IM with this as a specific requirement.
25X1A9a May I just stop you one second -- on your form,
assuming that we buy this section, the statement signed by you is this man meets
25X1A the requirements of
for designation as a participant, so this
means to me that the package coming up here for signature by you must include
this statement.
MR. ECHOLS: We had planned the statement would be attached to
the nomination.
25X1A9a
While I'm on that, is this purposely written as
"meets the requirements" rather than "is designated as" -- I mean, at what point
is the man actually designated?
25X1A9a
You have the authority to designate, and if the person
designated doesn't like it, he can appeal to the Director--
25X1A9a
Well then again I get back to the problem of signing
this paper, if we can get agreement -- possibly the previous one he signed - which
I doubt -- I don't feel I have an answer yet to what are we going to do with people
who won't sign it. I know it's just one of the mechanics--
MR. ECHOLS: I might add here that I hope that this document will
ultimately be signed by persons entering a Career Service -- when they go into
a Career Service they should sign it, and there should be no ifs, ands, and buts.
But initially, for these people who have been aboard for years, we are going to
have to start from scratch, apparently, and get a new certificate.
"(d) Be serving on a career basis in a field which normally
requires the performance of qualifying service as an integral part of a career
in that field. "
25X1A9a May I ask what "career basis" means? Does that
mean membership in the Career Service?
MR. ECHOLS: I would think "on a career basis" -- for example,
we might be able to include career agents - but it would exclude, obviously, any
other contract type of agents. It would exclude many employees who had not yet
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been granted career status, it would exclude our reserve appointments, and it
would exclude our temporary employees, WAE employees. They would have
to be career employees of the Agency, for one thing. All of our employees are
members of some Career Service, but I think in this sense they are with the Agency
on a career basis, not a temporary basis, not a short term basis - like a
Jlllllll~ reserve appointment for five years -- they're not eligible.
MR. GEORGE MILLER. ... in a field which normally" -- what do
you mean by "field"?
MR. ECHOLS: I don't believe we have defined the field. We meant
trying to embrace the entire scope of Agency activities, an area of vocational
specialization, you might say, which might be far more narrow - in most cases
will be far more narrow than a Career Service. Let's take for example in the
Finance Division, there is literally a corps of officers whose entire careers, by
and large, have been spent in overseas financing and accounting for Agency
intelligence operations abroad, and I would say this group of individuals, although
they don't have any blue beret, or anything like that, as individuals can be
identified as being career employees in a field of work, or endeavor, in this case,
wherein qualifying service is an integral part of their careers, an ultimate
requirement that they will regularly and recurringly be performing qualifying
service. Now this substantive judgment has to be made about an individual by
his Career Service, because they initially singled him out -- their intentions
toward him, career-wise, his intentions toward them, career-wise, his willingness
to assume the obligation of this type of service to go when and where. And then
it has to be approved by the Board -- they can review his career and say: Yes,
we think this man is a career employee, and he is in a field of work which is an
integral part of overseas intelligence operations--
MR. GEORGE MILLER: Who says that that field is a part of it?
MR. ECHOLS: The Career Service has the first crack at it. They
are going to have to identify what they think is a qualifying field of work. The
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Board gets its crack at it, and can say, "We don't agree" - can say "no" -- and
I get a crack at it -- and by the time it gets through that there should be pretty
good agreement that this is a deserving person whose career is in a qualifying
field.
25X1A9a Aren't you more asking what is qualifying service? --
and that is covered on page 3 -- which, again, needs interpretation.
MR. ECHOLS: Any other questions on (d)? (No response. )
"(e) Have performed qualifying service or be under official
orders for an assignment requiring the performance of qualifying service. "
We wanted to be able to pop a guy into the system the minute he got his orders to
go abroad. Actually, there is no real hurry today to get a guy under this system,
because unless he is separated the benefits are no greater and no less than Civil
Service, unless he wants to retire -- but this is a hangover from the days when
we wanted to get people into this system at the slightest indication that he indeed
was in a qualifying Career Service, and the proof of the pudding, so to speak, was
orders to go abroad, or the fact that he already had served abroad in intelligence
operations was a pretty good indicator. I don't think this is too meaningful
right now, but it still is here.
25X1A9a Would a 26 year old person, with over three
years of service, who was not yet under orders to go abroad, be brought into
the system?
MR. ECHOLS: I don't think so.
25X1A9a
No.
MR. ECHOLS: He wouldn't meet this requirement. This has become
the requirement -- perhaps unfortunately, but it has become the requirement --
he either has to have performed or be under orders to perform. So we appear
to be stuck with this one, although historically it's a hangover from a
+yl
previous retirement plan.
We keep saying "served abroad" -- I'm not sure
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MR. ECHOLS: I can solve "abroad" right this minute. We have at
least a tentative ruling from our General Counsel, that they are going to rule
that "abroad" is anything outside of the 48 states - the continental United States
and the District of Columbia.
25X1A9a
I'm saying we seem to be talking only about "abroad. "
But we also recognize, I believe, there is going to be qualifying service that
does not require being abroad.
MR. ECHOLS: "(f) Have sufficient time prior to completion of 15
years service with the Agency within which he could complete a minimum of
60 months of qualifying service, or, if he has completed 15 years of service with
the Agency, have performed 60 months of qualifying service. " Now, historically
this is the background. The House insisted that we give a man a vested right to
remain in this retirement system if he so chose - the election to remain in it
after he had completed the 15 years' service. However, by law the requirement
to retire is five years of qualifying service. So, to give a man a vested right
in a retirement system under which he might never achieve the right to retire
because he might never serve five years, is obviously a meaningless anomaly.
So the lawyers required that at the time a man is about to complete his 15 years
and acquire this vested right that he either have completed 60 months, so that
there is no future worry about his being able to retire under this system, or there
at least be time enough left for him to complete the 60 months before he gets the
vested right. Now you take this in conjunction with our need to review it a
man before he gets this vested right, and if he does not have it and cannot
acquire it before the 15th year, we will be forced to remove him from the system,
at least temporarily. Now he may complete the p 60 months and be put back in.
MR. WARFIELD: In other words, a man who has 17 years' service
and four years of qualifying service cannot get in.
MR. ECHOLS: Will not be put in at this time. At such time as he
does get 60 months of qualifying service he would immediately qualify at that point,
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and if he were put in at that point would immediately acquire, if he so elects, a
permanent vested interest.
MR. GEORGE MILLER: The way that reads to me is if he doesn't
get it before he has 15 years of service he can't go in.
25X1A9a
It' s confusing. But it has been clarified.
MR. GEORGE MILLER: It says "have sufficient time prior to
completion" --
MR. ECHOLS: In other words, if he cannot possibly get the
qualifying 60 months prior to his 15 years of service we won't put him in the system
at this time, but if he subsequently does get the 60 months of qualifying service
then he would qualify and so be designated.
25X1A9a
MR. GEORGE MILLER: This language doesn't say that.
It doesn't go on to explain it. But let's say the man
has 16 and 4 years of service, and then he goes overseas for two years and he
winds up with 18 and 6 years' service, then obviously he is qualified under these
words.
MR. GEORGE MILLER: It says an employee must have sufficient
time prior to completion of 15 years' service--
25X1A9a he last part of the sentence clarifies that.
I read it just as you did at first.
Emmett, when do you plan to have these so-called
reviews at the end of the 5-year period and 10-year period -- when do you plan to
have the reviews? -- not of whether a man has already been designated or whether
a man is going to be re-designated -- at what period do you intend that a person's
file shall be reviewed? , I have in mind the JOT. Now a JOT with three years
of service with us, or over three years of service, who might be sent overseas for
two months -- now he is qualifying -- he has had two months of qualifying service,
and he's in the proper career field and everything -- he meets all the requirements --
might you at that time, in order to catch him as early as possible, designate him,
or would you review his ift file at the end of five years?
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MR. ECHOLS: He has three years with us -- he is age 25 -- and
he will have some more overseas service--
25X1A9a
He has two months. Now this man could be a
participant if you are going to review his file at the end of three and a half years,
because he could within 15 years have completed 60 months -- so would you
designate him as of that time?
MR. ECHOLS: I would say designate people at the earliest possible
25X1A9a
Then when you review his file at the end of five
years, and if he then still has only those two months of qualifying service, do
you kick him out?
MR. ECHOLS: There is a presumption that something has happened
to his career, and that he is not indeed an overseas careerist. There is an
escape clause here, as you will find--
25X1A9a The lawyers took that statement out.
I still think the point George Miller made is a very
serious one. When I read that myself, and about four or five other fellows,
it says one of the requirements is have sufficient time prior to completion of 15
years' service to do it -- which these fellows do not -- or "if he has completed
15 years" -- which they have -- "have performed 60 months of qualifying service" --
which they have not. You have explained it doesn't mean you can't get it later
on -- but reading this thing it states quite clearly to me that 15 years is the very
key point in your life and you must have sufficient time prior to completion of this
to do 60 months, or if you have 15 years you must already have 5 years. There
is nothing that says you can get it later on. And what worries me is the last
word on this page - "final" -- I worry about their intent.
MR. ECHOLS: Will you deny that these paragraphs on designation
would prevent a 50 year old man -- who came to the Agency when he was at least 25 --
with his three years -- let's make him now 53, for the fun of it -- no question that
he signed the obligation of service, that he is lets say an integral part of the
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clandestine operations machinery, and is in that field, and that he has performed
overseas -- now we take this man five years later, and he has spent five
years overseas - 60 months - he is now 58 years old. Now you look at this man
at this point -- he has completed -- no, he hasn't--
MR. GEORGE MILLER: Just take me -- I've been almost 14 years
in the Agency, I've had three years overseas, but by the time I have 15 years in
I won't either have 60 months in or the possibility of getting 60 months in.
MR. ECHOLS: You are not eligible to be a participant.
MR. GEORGE MILLER: I'll never be eligible, according to this.
MR. ECHOLS: No, it doesn't say that. Now let's say you go
abroad for another tour of duty -- you have three years now -- say two years
from now you come back and at that time you have 5 years of qualifying service--
MR. GEORGE MILLER: But I didn't get them prior to
15 years.
25X1A9a I don't interpret it to say that.
It's have sufficient time to complete a minimum of 60
months of qualifying service -- that is one requirement -- and the alternative to
that is if he has performed 60 months of qualifying service -- it's either the first
part of that or the second part of it.
25X1A9a
It doesn't say 15 years or more. As I say, what
worried me was that "final", the last word on this page -- I worry about the intent
there -- because they actually went so far as to say a "final review" at 15 years.
MR. ECHOLS: I see the point now, the point is 15 years or more.
That is our interpretation of it, and I believe, without question, that was the intent
all along -- in fact, our discussions with the lawyers, and so on, was to this effect.
25X1A9a
How do you reconcile this with "a final review"?
MR. ECHOLS: Let's accept this means 15 years or more -- so this
would not preclude a man with 17 years of service, or 20 years of service, from
acquiring 60 months of qualifying duty and at that time being designated. Or
if after five years of service he has performed 60 months of qualifying service. That
is the intention of the language.
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Now let's go on. (Reading) "Periodic Review and
Redetermination of Designation. At intervals of not more than five years, the
record of each participant shall be reviewed to determine that he meets the
criteria under this regulation for continued coverage under the System. Normally,
these reviews will be made within 90 days of the fifth and tenth anniversary of
initial designation as a participant and a final review will be made six months
prior to the fifteenth anniversary of appointment in the Agency. Such review
must show that the individual, in addition to meeting the criteria for initial
designation, is performing minimum periods of qualifying service throughout his
career in relation to the following standards. "
Now the word "standards" is not synonymous with requirement.
These are general standards you would generally expect to see--
These are norms which we can vary from--
25X1A9a
hat is terribly important -- so it doesn't go
in effect the precise day that somebody gets on a plane at Dulles.
25X1A9a They are minimums -- because all of the flexibility
was taken out of this when the lawyers got through--
25X1A9a It says "minimum periods" --
I would say there was this much latitude, that if you
had a fellow who at the exact date of completion of the 5th year as a participant
was going to be short two weeks of completing his 18 months--
25X1A9a
This would be a simply awful thing if true,
because it will affect people at the 5th year, the 10th year--
25X1A9a It would be another statistic you would have to keep
in mind every time you make an assignment.
25X1A9a . Because the wife might not want to go -- she
might want to stay and have her baby here--
MR. ECHOLS: Well, you always have this out. We may waste
some paperwork pulling a guy out of the system and then putting him back in later
on, but he really hasn't lost anything.
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25X1A9a
I shudder when you talk about shifting a man back
and forth, because this would entail a tremendous amount of work on our part
and Civil Service-
MR. ECHOLS: Can we get an estimate of how often this is likely
to happen? Let's take a JOT -- now remember, you're not going to put him
into this system unless he has performed some overseas service or is under
orders to go.
25X1A9a
Indeed we do still have some latitude there --
right under that table it says: "Unless the minimum periods of qualifying service
set forth above have been performed, the employee will not be eligible to remain
a participant unless (1) he is then serving on an assignment which will satisfy the
qualifying service requirement indicated for the review involved, or (2) he is
under official orders to serve in such an assignment within 90 calendar days" --
and this is your man who wants to stay here until the baby comes - he is under
official orders to serve in such assignment.
MR. ECHOLS: In other words, on the last day of the first 5-year
period he could start travelling, and here is an exception for him.
25X1A9a
The loophole that I said was taken out was a general
one that would have permitted the Director to waive -- actually he could have
waived the entire requirement.
25X1A9a
What if we had a JOT who was immediately sent
overseas, after some training, and he was overseas four years. Now, then,
when you review his case - his 5th anniversary review -- I mean, if you did it
before he would get in the system--
MR. ECHOLS: He not only meets the requirements for the first
period, he meets the (tenure) requirement--
25X1A9a
You review him at the end of the 5th year, and
you say he has to have l8months. Now, he has four years. Now, he does not
go overseas again but at the end of the 10th year you review his case -- he still
has his four years -- but must he have served . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . then?
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MR. ECHOLS: Not at all.
25X1A9a Then this statement here - "Such review must show
that the individual, in addition to meeting the criteria for initial designation" --
that "in addition to meeting the criteria for initial designation" sounds as though
you can't use the 4 years that he originally served to account for his 36 months.
MR. ECHOLS: The review should show that he is still serving on a
career basis in a field which normally requires the performance --
25X1A9a
end of 15.
t a pace that will allow him to have five years at the
Well, in reading this I just get the impression that
in addition to meeting the criteria for his initial designation, he's got to serve
these other months in addition to that.
MR. ECHOLS: Well, the initial requirements don't speak to
periods of service--
25X1A9a He has already exhausted that, because he had four
years of service at the time of his initial designation -- at the end of four and a half
years he has come back, and he has four years overseas, he is initially designated
at that point. Now he got into the system because he did have this qualifying
service of four years overseas. Now, then you review him at the end of the 5th
year, and you say he has had 4 years overseas. Now you review him at the end
of the 10th year. Now this sounded to me as though he had shot his wad on his
initial designation. I think you could do better than this language here.
25X1A9a
I think we have a real inconsistency here, though,
where it makes provision for a man who hasn't yet had 60 months overseas, and
if he later gets the 60 months then he can come in -- but the review says the 60
months must be completed before the 15th anniversary, so the review doesn't seem
to provide for the man who did not get his 60 months before 15 years but did get it
later. On page 7, under (f), it says, "if he has completed 15 years of service
with the Agency, have performed 60 months of qualifying service. " I interpret
that to mean he can get the 60 months after 15 years. However, on page 8 , the
15th anniversary review - "at the time of the 15th anniversary review he has
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sufficient time prior to completion or 15 years service with the Agency within
which he could complete a minimum of 60 months of qualifying service -- the
15th anniversary review on him would have already taken place, and he would
have been out for good.
MR. ECHOLS: That's right -- the man after the 15th year acquires
eligibility to enter the system -- not only enters the system but immediately
acquires a permanent vested interest, and there are no reviews on him, ever --
there's no need for it.
25X1A9a
Suppose he was reviewed at the end of 15 years and
did not have the 60 months--
MR. ECHOLS: You are talking about the man who does not acquire
eligibility until after he has performed 15 years of service -- after 25 years he
finally completes the 60 months of qualifying service, and is then eligible, and
is then designated. He is in for life. No review. None is called for.
25X1A9a
This 15th anniversary review doesn't bar him--
25X1A9a
Your 90 days clause really doesn't make me
as happy as you might think, because it's very hard to (settle on) 90 days -- very
often the elements which contribute to a decision (about going overseas) are never
available until the last minute -- they involve all kinds of agreement and approvals
and in this whole procedure I see this five and ten year review as something that
is going to complicate our lives more than anything else, unless we can go back
to the original statement that "standards" is a word that has some flexibility.
MR. ECHOLS: It does.
25X1A9a In the whole business this is the one thing
that seemed most helpful.
MR. ECHOLS: Can you conceive of many people in the Clandestine
Services whom you would designate in this system -- mind you, you can't do that
until they have performed overseas or are under orders to do so -- who in five
years haven't performed 18 months service abroad, and can you conceive of many
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such persons who after 10 years haven't completed 36 months abroad, and who
are still in your opinion serving on a career basis in a field which normally
requires such service? I think it's most unlikely.
MR. WARFIELD: Jim, I think we have 270 days here to play with.
It says the review will be made within 90 days of the anniversary. Now if Emmett
could undertake to call these to the attention of the Board 90 days in advance, and
we would have an opportunity to know that your Mr. X hash't got the proper things --
we would not review it -- he would just put us on notice that Mr. X isn't qualified
for his 10th anniversary, and we wouldn't do anything about it, we would wait for
180 days. In other words, we would be within 90 days, but (on the far side), for
the Board to review it, and then you would have another 90 days to get him on the
road -- so it would really be nine months.
MR. ECHOLS: You can anticipate you will get machine runs on those
coming up for review.
MR. WARFIELD: If we could get it 90 days in advance of the
anniversary--
25X1A9a I think this is going to become more of a
problem than you might think. You don't have to have a great many of these to
become quite uncomfortable. There seems to be a conflict of interest which
could very easily arise -- where I think the average area division probably deals
with something like 80 percent of his overseas planning, reassignments, timing,
without reference to anybody else in the Agency -- the rest of the Agency is
essentially rubberstamping about 80 percent of their people. As each year passes
it seems to me there are more elements we have to live with -- cover, security,
integration - - a myriad of things.
25X1A9a Average grade. (Laughter)
I think it will become quite frequent that we
will suddenly find out that some individual is really going to be at a critical point
25X1 C4a
whether he goes in or, out of this system simply because
25X1
or his wife is having a baby, or his children have to have
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their teeth fixed, or something, and therefore he doesn't want to leave. And if
in the interpretation that we do on this thing in the next few weeks if we can try
to get maximum flexibility on this point alone, the major problem that I have
found in this regulation will have been taken care of. It's the major thing that
bothers me.
MR. WARFIELD: Because probably when you do send him out he's
going to stay for five or six years.
25X1A9a
Well, certainly at this point we can interpret
this just as liberally as possible, and if it has to be later amended, it can be
amended, it seems to me.
MR. ECHOLS: Let me say a word on this. If I were to speculate
as to the one thing that made it possible for us to get this retirement system
without some very rigid requirements stated in the law, it was this commitment
to purge undeserving people from the rolls. This I think was the gimmick that
made it possible for us to get our bill. And I hope it isn't too much of a burden
to us.
25X1A9a I'd like to comment on this question of moving
people back and forth. The other day we had a meeting 'with representatives of
the Central Cover Staff and Office of Security as a prelude to going to the
Commission, concerning how to approach the Commission to get the money back
on those who will be designated as participants in the system . . . . . . . . .
with the problems that will be involved in handling the M names in and out of
the Commission. I only mention this as illustrative of a point. If we are to
move these people back and forth, and back and forth--
MR. ECHOLS: I just don't think you should consider that.
25X1A9a Every time we do this we are exposing these names
again as a security problem, to go in and out of the Commission. I agree
we have a money problem here, but I don't think money is the objective -- the
problem is to get people where they should be. But I do think there should be
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some regard given to the amount of movement for the benefit of the individual
as well as his own cover and security status with us. The more we bandy his
name back and forth the more we have to expose him unduly.
MR. ECHOLS: Well, I would think the individual who is under real
cover would have no trouble whatsoever meeting these requirements. He's the
guy that's going to have more qualifying service--
MR. WARFIELD: I think domestic service might be qualifying if
he was under cover the whole time --
MR. ECHOLS: These can be real problems, or security factors,
if you will, but I hope it's a theoretical problem and not a factual one.
25X1A9a --that you review this man every five years, and
say on the 5th year he is no longer a participant. Well, he then qualifies some
more and he gets his five years and he qualifies and gets back in. Then you
start reviewing him again maybe because he still hasn't attained his 15 years
total -- again there might be a possibility of his being disqualified and going back.
MR. ECHOLS: I can see the theoretical possibility, and I'm stuck
with it.
25X1A9a Is the .preposition "or" a typographical
error? He has sufficient time prior to completion or 15 years -- is that an
"of" ?
25X1A9a
s a typographical error.
It changes the meaning considerably.
MR. ECHOLS: That we can correct.
MR. WARFIELD: We haven't finished with this language under here
yet, have we? I'm talking about subparagraph b3 --
MR. ECHOLS: Let's read this whole thing then.
MR. WARFIELD: At the time of the 15th anniversary review --
does that mean within this 90 day period--
MR. ECHOLS: (Reading) "The employee will not be eligible
to remain a participant unless at the time of the 15th anniversary review . . . . . . . .
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(NOTE: Recording Secretary took a five minute break at this point.)
25X1A9a
Then a JOT who has been on board for four years,
if you are going to review his folder today, if he has just done one month overseas
you can designate?
25X1A9a
MR. ECHOLS: Yes.
You can designate him immediately after . . . . . .
MR. ECHOLS: Fine. Fine. We hope he stays there for the
Now, I think Paul would like to get down to cases. I think
Harry would like to get down to cases. If there is enough understanding I too
would like to get these initial rosters out and let people start working with them
and see what bugs come out of it.
25X1A9a
I hate to keep pounding on this, but the only thing
that bugs me on it, without writing another word, unless in addition we try to give
this a little better public relations -- but, as I say' the only thing that stops me
is when the time comes to ask the man to sign this thing, and if we can only make
a decision here as to what guidance we give the man in the field - the supervisor -
when the fellow says, "I don't think 1211 sign this thing. " Now if we can say to
him: "Well, fine -- send it in -- and I don't know what the disposition will be" --
okay -- and we defer a decision as to what we will do until we see whether we get
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25X1A9a
MR. WARFIELD: Why don't you let him stay out of the system?
Okay -- that is a decision. There is something
about signing that thing that makes it sound optional.
25X1A9a
Why don't we start with a few voluntary cases--
MR. WARFIELD: I expect when some of the area chiefs and
branch chiefs (explain this), I expect people are going to clamor to get in.
25X1A9a
Would you clarify two points. If indeed the
individual may elect after 15 years to stay in or stay out of this system that takes
most of the sting out of the initial decision to sign to go anyplace and enter the
system.
MR. ECHOLS: I believe that they will all elect to stay in provided
they have that last pre-retirement option. I may be wrong.
25X1A9a
I think this is an illusion -- so just assuming
that you are not right, Emmett, if the law and the policy will permit the individual
to in fact elect not to stay in as well as to stay in -- and, in that connection, what
is the meaning of the second part of the sentence - "and this decision is not
subject to the approval of the Director" -- why is that there?
MR. ECHOLS: That is related to the election, "I choose
to stay in this system for the duration of my employment in the Agency" -- the
Director cannot kick him out of the system.
25X1A9a
Now may I ask if the converse of this, is this
equally free from approval or disapproval of the Director? I think this is a key
decision we've got to get before we go into this thing -- because if you get that
one, and it's nice and clear -- even if you agree he makes it at 15 years, or some
other date, and can't jump out and back and forth when approaching his 60th
birthday -- if you can get that one made, and made clear, I don't think you will
have any trouble getting this whole thing on the tracks.
MR. ECHOLS: I couldn't in good conscience, Jim, and I don't
think you would either, suggest to the Director that he adopt an interpretation
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S
a ;J A I "'It
lvll~q
or is subject to an interpretation which would permit individuals to defeat a
major argument that the Director made in getting this system from the Congress,
and that is that he must be able to manage the attrition of this group of people
to the extent necessary -- and this was testified to.
25X1A9a
But he has that authority irrespective of
whether they're in the system or not.
MR. ECHOLS: He asked for this retirement system to facilitate
that ability. And in my opinion the Director would be in a most ambiguous position
if he then turned around and said, "But I'm going to give individuals the option to
sidestep this. " That doesn't make sense.
25X1A9a
There is your key issue right there -- and I
think that is the one that has to be decided.
25X1A9a
Your point is anyone who objects to signing it if you
tell him after 15 years you can elect to get out, this should swing him over to a
willingness to join?
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
I think anybody, with that caveat--
It's an anniversary -- do you read this as something
he does when he reaches his 15th year? What about the fellow who has passed 15--
25X1A9a
That is that last paragraph - those already in
the Agency, how the Act will be applied to them. I think you have to have one
interpretation for them, and then you adopt a program from now on. When they
get to that 15th anniversary this is the second confrontation between the individual
and the firm as to whether he is still ready, willing, and able to undertake this
kind of service.
25X1A9a Also, at the outset you said the use of the word "elect"
to you meant there is a choice, but you are not now saying-
MR. ECHOLS: I don't know what the interpretation is going to be.
I know the General Counsel thinks there's only one choice -- he can choose to
remain in permanently, and we can't take him out--
25X1A9a
Emmett, you see, you have among that group
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those who are no longer participants -- any man you review at the end of the 15th
year who hasn't got his MAE. 60 months, he is immediately put out of the
system. When he is put out of the system he has to have some system under which
he retires, so it has to be Civil Service. Now, then, I interpret this statement --
all those discussions thattook place at the House, as giving that particular man who
has got 15 years of service, five years of qualified service, something special, and
that allows that man to make that election at that point. Because what difference
does it make if you are reviewing a man's folder at the end of 15 years and he's
got only 4 years and 11 months, and you say, "Mr., you're going out" - he goes
out of the system. Now they're both good men. Now you're letting that latter
fellow stay on until 62, but you're not letting the fellow that the Congressmen wanted
to have an election - you're saying to him, "you've got to retire under the Civil
Service retirement" --
MR. ECHOLS: I don't (see any problem), for psychological reasons
if nothing else; and secondly, I think most people will elect to stay in the system.
25X1A9a I trust the record will reflect your first and
clear statement on this.
MR. ECHOLS: There are some jokers in this law and in this
regulation that I'm sure you don't understand, because I'm going to have a hard
time explaining them to you.
Could we make as a major piece of business for the coming week
a study of the rest of the regulation, so that you will have other questions, and we
can get this thing buttoned down.
25X1A9a I think for two or three weeks we ought to
meet more than once a week.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
It may be difficult for all of us, but I think
I don't know + about the others, but I would like
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to take one day and low devote that whole day to it, rather than have daily meetings.
s a compromise take one afternoon.
25X1A9a
How about all afternoon next Thursday?
MR. ECHOLS: All right, starting at 1:00 o'clock.
. . . . The meeting adjourned at 5:55 p.m.
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