MINUTES OF CIA RETIREMENT BOARD 8 JUNE 72

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP78-03092A001000150002-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 38
• Document Creation Date: December 12, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 15, 2002
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: June 8, 1972
• Content Type: MIN

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. . . The 183rd Meeting of the CIA RETIREMENT BOARD
convened on Thursday, 8 June 1972, at 2:00 p.m. in Room 5E62, Headquarters,
with the following present:
Mr. Harry B. Fisher, Chairman
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Mr. John S. Warner, Legal Adviser
OS, appeared
in his own behalf at the invitation of
the Board.
O/DCI/Historical Staff,
appeared in his own behalf at the invitation
of the Board.
MR. FISHER: To begin with, let me be sure that we have no
problem with the Minutes. Have you all had a chance to review the 4 May
Minutes? and the 11 May Minutes? (No response.) If there are no changes,
then they'll stand as written.
. . . Minutes of 4 May and 11 May stand as
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both of whom appear to meet the criteria for designation.
. Motion made, seconded, and passed . . .
MR. FISHER: We also have 27 employees who have now com-
pleted five years of Agency service and are appropriately qualified for designation
as participants in the System.
. . . Motion made, seconded, and passed . . .
MR. FISHER: For the 15-year designations we have
MR. FISHER: As usual, we have some add-ons for you, all
of whom have the required years of qualifying service and age for retirement.
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The following voluntary retirements are:
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The following involuntary retirements are:
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meeting.
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Yes. I did that just before the last Board
MR. FISHER: These are all within what figure? 221?
Yes. Three of those people really haven't
signed yet, but I know they're going to sign. The figure as of the time I left
was 572. I lost one yesterday - he converted to disability.
MR. FISHER: Okay - fine.
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I know it's doing things a little 4M funny,
but if anybody signs within the next two weeks, is it possible for me to go ahead and
approve them? if they are qualified?
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These were on your projections, weren't they?
Yes, I think so.
Assuming that they will be approved, yes.
Have you broken them down by Directorate?
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The total? No.
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We had 70 as of this morning.
We had three out of that group just in Logistics
MR. FISHER: If you only have 70, Bob, then DDS must certainly
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MR. FISHER: DDI has a pretty good share.
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Nine of these are yours, Gordon.
MR. FSHER: Okay. We can now move on to item 3 - which
- and I assume he is standing by.
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MR. FISHER: He needs 26 months and 22 days. According
on his overseas duties which is already included in his overseas credits, so I
don't think we have to worry too terribly about that.
I think we are on the verge of
saying this might well be qualifying service, but we are concerned about the
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types that have been involved in this sort of thing. Therefore, we thought
maybe we ought to bring him in and have you people ask him any questions that
you m ight have on your minds.
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MR. FISHER: Yes. We tabled it in order to bring him in.
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such a gentleman about this whole thing. He apparently doesn't want to appeal
to the Director - although he may eventually - but he saw fit to come back
and see me and he indicated that he had thought of other things.
Now one thing that bothered me
was this new business in his paragraph 4 here where he talks about May, 1960,
to October, 1961. We have previously dealt with May, 1960, to July, 1961,
and that gave us a real problem because when we took out the time for which
he had already gotten overseas credit in there, he only had 12 months of ser-
vice for which he was trying to get 13 months credit. And had it all been good
I suppose we could have said okay, but we said six months - maybe eight
months at the outside.
still thinks that he had 25X1
his heart attack in July, and that that effectively ended his tour, although
he didn't administratively end the tour. I was looking for his biographic
profile, which is not here.
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I looked in his file, but there's nothing
in there that's going to help as far as that date is concerned.
MR. FISHER: We made quite a bit of the fact that there wasn't
enough time to give him the time that he needed. Here the assignment shows
that in September he went into Plans. From 1951 to 1954 he was apparently
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down
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and he admitted to me that he didn't do any direct training. He
was in a sense a direct supervisor of the training, and yes, he used the name
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I Obviously his time in
is all fine. From 1957 to 1960
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Committee - none of which leaves us breathless.
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attention to
Now I wasn't paying too much
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25X1A5A*iatter of fact, as we go through the rest of those things - Special Assistant
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meeting with the head of he did cover all
those things with us plus some more, all of which led us to say that six or eight
months of that time was good.
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You say six to eight months out of May, 1960,
to July, 1961, was good?
MR. FISHER: Yes. We weren't precise, but we could see
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Then you need the other five, six, seven months
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It doesn't indicate any length of time.
I figured he needed quite a bit of that if he was
going to make it. It doesn't give any time here. I don't know if we can stretch
this far or not. It's a case where you would like to, but it isn't very explicit.
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MR. FISHER: And he goes into long stories of
which we have already given him credit for.
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Is he trying to go out in June?
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all his financial figures. I gave him his estimates and explained all his insurance -
he has had a full briefing. He is still agonizing over whether he can go 40
Civil Service or not.
MR. FISHER: He told me he was about ready to go, and in
a subsequent meeting he said it's going to be a little tough for him to make it
under the Civil Service annuity. It becomes pretty significant.
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He wanted to know how many pay checks
he had coming afterwards and exact figures all the way down the line.
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trip in the next six months.
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go to 7, 9 months now.
Maybe you could send him on an inspection
If we said six to eight months before, we might
MR. FISHER: We said that after we had agreed that he didn't
have it. If you recall, he was honest enough to say -
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That was his main job. He seemed to be singled out from time to time as an
individual to handle some of these cases and, really, we were giving him six
out of 12 months for that.
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It was a rough estimate at the time.
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I still don't see 13 months.
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I hadn't remembered that six or eight months,
Harry, and I put down two months as my total here.
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MR. FISHER: It wasn't a very precise figure.
We said perhaps as much as six months.
MR. FISHER: Well, I gather the sense of the group is that he
still doesn't have it.
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Is he a possible disability case?
MR. FISHER: No. As a matter of fact, he went
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MR. FISHER: I'm sorry, I'm not sure that he's back here.
I think it's supposed to end in June - about now. He's winding up now.
And incidentally, the Agency is sending no replacement either, and obviously
they're hard put to find something for him to do. He spent most of his time
trying to figure out how he could get out of here.
I think he would really like to go.
I'm not trying to be negative, but if he was 55 years old and losing the 3-1/2%,
I don't think he would boggle at all.
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Does he intend to work when he retires?
What's he doing right now?
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That's why I was asking about the physical side -
if he really feels like working.
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MR. FISHER: He obviously is fighting. He knows he's pretty
He's close to 51. He's going to have to take
the 8%, and that's hard enough.
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MR. FISHER: Do I have a motion?
I would like to make a compassionate vote.
MR. FISHER: We are all with you.
There's no doubt about it, he is close. It's
too bad. If he doesn't have a time factor another six months or so would do
it. It would seem like he could go on one of the IG trips or something to get
some time in.
25X1A9A MR. FISHER: I went out of my way to ask
looking for a DDS representative for the IG staff. I said this man would be fine
for the IG, and you know - see that he gets a trip overseas. Well, I think
we have a motion.
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His
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training.
. . . Motion made, seconded and passed not
into the System . .
MR. FISHER: I don't know about you all, but on
time in itself looks pretty good to me.
We have already given credit for
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What was that again? you say we have?
MR. FISHER: Well, we gave some credit, sure, for
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Gordon, do you have much to say on this?
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this
But isn't the
man we had recently.
You mean give him credit for all 39 months of
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Well, I feel he has the service. I think he
has the service based on the comparison with the one we just approved.
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Well, how much of this JMWAVE duty would
you be inclined to give, Gordon? the whole two years?
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Well, if you're going to pin him down to a pre-
cise time -- A lot of the stuff was routine, a lot of the stuff was very risky,
and some of the stuff was really operational by every sense of the word. But
obviously, there were periods of it where he just sat down there like any other
staff officer.
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He was working with case officers for some
the time - briefing them.
MR. FISHER: But he does seem to indicate that it involved
so much contact - more contact - than might have been expected.
When I read this I felt that there was
enough time between the two that I didn't try to zero in specifically on how many
months it was. He needs $ 31 months altogether and we are talking about almost
of
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I'm a little bit concerned over the fact that we have some people in DDS&T
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who were fooling around with various
Shifting through this I
made a rough estimate that maybe a quarter o .is time on the
job was
what I would consider to be qualifying service in terms of hazard or some other
criteria. And that's only about nine months or ten months. I wouldn't give
him the two months of training. And I also estimated only half of his time at
JMWAVE, and therefore I come up short.
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I come up short by nine/ten months.
I don't know. Having one drop on your head I think is the biggest hazard.
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He gave an example of one that -
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his
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By how much?
MR. FISHER: First of all, I think we are on the upbeat here.
We are not trying to deny somebody qualifying service if we can find it here.
I can't be precise about the 39 months, nor can I about the 24 months, but I
guess I went about it differently. I said 39 and 24 is 63 and we have to find
about half of that time together as being good.
All right. All I have to say then is that half of
Mime is good and half of his other time is good.
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That's 32 months.
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Well, I'll tell you -
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I was really on the fence with this one. I have
tried to come out with a yes or no. I was even counting his training for two
months!
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gives him credit for 31
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service. He thinks that is hazardous. That's in
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25X1A9A MR FISHER: He's really talking about the 1954 to 1957 time.
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That's the0time.
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No, it's not.
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MR. FISHER: Yes, it is. Sure.
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(time.
These endorspting officers, I see, have really
gotten on to this business of comparable service abroad.
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MR. WARNER: It's comparable to
really mean anything at all.
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It sort of turns you off.
Yes, that's the effect it has.
MR. FISHER: It isn't too meaningful, but to each individual
who says this, he's not -- He doesn't have the experience of sitting here.
It sounds reasonable to him to say - If I can say that I do the same as they do
overseas, then this should be good service. We could speak about a lot of
overseas service that is not as demanding as this. And he is quite right.
If we go half way on both tours you're about there, I think.
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I'm sorry, I missed that.
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On the other hand, I guess he is a $ "D"
careerist all the way. ? It's the whole pattern.
MR. WARNER: I think you would be shortchanging the JMWAVE
service. The mere fact that hepidn't do it every day --
MR. FISHER: It looked as if the total nature of his service
has been different. Some guys can be on a tour for a couple of years and one
year he does one thing and the next year $something else. But even when it
has been off and on, giving him half seems pretty easy.
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I think the whole pattern of the man's activity
would say he was liable to this kind of duty.
MR. FISHER: I guess I didn't spend as much time on this one
as you did. If we just give him half he's got it. It looked pretty good.
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I wrote myself a yes with qM one reading.
MR. FISHER: I think we have a motion.
Motion made, seconded, and passed . ,
MR. FISHER: Okay. Frank, one of the problems that we face
is that the people submitting these things are getting smarter and smarter, and
they write better and better pieces. (Laughter. )
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They're also getting more endorsements
than they got in the beginning.
MR. FISHER: We have sent some back. We can't always
take the man's view. It's not that he's lying, but he sees it a little different than
the others do.
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sterling member of our Board, who J always found to be a little on the tough
side in terms of giving out credit. He is apparently convinced -- and he of
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relationship to
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There were a lot of them that would bear some
MR. FISHER: I might add that Colby didn't see
her
He called me on I" and said - I know you can't write it, but if you guys gave
her credit for her pre-1947 duties I can understand it. I said - Well, yes,
in a sense we did. We sort of round-balled it and she was short a little and,
you know, it isn't legal. You're not supposed to give credit for it, so we did
reach out a little bit for it and apparently that's what he told the Director.
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Incidentally, Colby is sitting with
case. He hasn't gotten to read it yet, but he told Barbara
he was glad to get one of these raw.
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I can't understand why I haven't heard from
MR. FISHER: We did say it would be a couple of weeks.
Well, we are a little afield here. Do I have a motion
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. . . Motion made, seconded and passed
admitting ---Into the System . . .
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is in no hurry and I think we can punt
. . . The Board agreed to table
case until the next meeting . . .
MR. FISHER: Let's take care of #8 -
is for an extension of five months.
situation.
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MR. WARNER: Careful planning would have avoided this
MR. FISHER: I agree, but
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as Deputy
25X1A9ADirector for Recruitment and Placement, and then popped up there and I
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felt thati was the only one who really could do it. I might add that Bob
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I I is not really excited. He had adjusted to leaving on time.
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I think you ought to make the extension for a
MR. FISHER: No, he won't take it for more than a year.
you say - "I would like to see the effort continue under him for one full year. "
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MR. FISHER: That's one full year from today.
Under op paragraph 5 - the last sentence -
Why? what's magic about a year?
MR. FISHER: It takes it through a full recruitment cycle on
Okay, you had a reason.
MR. FISHER: I know you're going to go along with thi s -
(laughter) - but really, this black recruitment thing has taken a long time and
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it's just starting to move. I I -- I didn't put this in there -- but
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he came down and really ma a ltc to me. He said a wou a e to see me
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go. He knows the black placement officers and he has entertained
them and he has a whole thing going. I'm really hoping that this October or
November it's going to pay off.
approving the 5-month extension for
This is just a straight removal. I think we can all agree, without prejudice,
that he be transferred to the Civil Service Retirement System with the under-
standing that he may return when he meets the qualifying requirements.
MR. FISHER: And this is strictly for operational reasons.
Bob's planning was pretty good. His daughter just graduated from the University
of North Carolina and the boy is graduating from Yale. He would have had
another year there except that he's so smart he made Yale in three years -
he went in with some advanced credits and took some summer school - and
he also has a scholarship or something for his Master's Degree, so Bob is
now free as a bird. He has a summer place - his retirement place - all
bought and he's really in good shape.
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Okay, we now have
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They're recycling some of them.
. . . Off the record . . .
. . Motion made, seconded, and passed
. Motion made, seconded and passed . . .
MR. FISHER: Okay,
care of that. By the way, I would like to advise you,
min4you signing for the Deputy Director, but by signing as Chief of the Adminis-
trative Staff you're not complying with the regulations. The Deputy Director
is supposed to go along with ~ this. Just make that read - Deputy Director
and if he delegates the authority to you to sign for him, fine. Otherwise,
somebody could say the Deputy Director didn't apprar e this.
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not the separation from her husband or the daughter living with her. The emer-
gency is the cost of having her teeth fixed, the pest control, and the new guttering.
MR. FISHER: In other words, she has had the daughter with
her as a long term proposition.
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Yes, since 1958, and she separated from her
husband in 1966. I also would like to say that I'm not leaning as much towards
two years as I am one.
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only adds up to $1200.
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This expense - the emergency situation -
I don't see any reason to AM extend her by two
years. It doesn't seem to make a case for a full two years.
MR. FISHER: I must admit she's in a job where it's not easy
to get people to do it.
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operational stand for her.
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I But at the same time they weren't taking an
Do you usually extend people for two years
MR. FISHER: No. Sometimes we round it out at the fiscal
year - that type of thing. I guess the best thing is that if she really means it -
that she was all prepared to go and then suddenly all of these things happened -
and it's dll~ about $1200 worth of things, then maybe one year will straighten
her out.
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and her daughter was with her. It's these other three items that caused the
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Okay. Now in this case the emergency thing is
She planned to go. She was already separated
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one year?
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MR. FISHER: So you have changed your mind.
Not in the concurrence of the extension.
MR. FISHER: Can you re-do this and say you recommend
Why? It's in the record, isn't it?
MR. FISHER: We don't send the whole verbatim up.
Okay, I would be glad to change it.
Can't we just say that the position of the
DDI was changed?
MR. FISHER: Is that all right?
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Yes.
MR. FISHER: But I can't help but think that someone will ask -
What did the Deputy say? are we reversing him or not? You can say that
during the course of discussion the DDI representative expressed the Direc-
torate position.
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I think you ought to re-do that second page
to clean the record up. It was signed as the guy who is now changing --
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Do these extensions go beyond you?
MR. FISHER: Oh, yes.
But wait until you see some from the DDS.
They don't take a position; (Laughter. )
MR. FISHER: I agree, and we are going to do something
about that. But here you have taken a position which sounds contrary. Maybe
you can just asterisk this thing and drop down below and say that - . . . on that
basis we recommend one year. Okay?
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fix it up.
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MR. FISHER: Do I have a motion
. . . Motion made, seconded, and passed
approving a one-year extension
MR. FISHER: Now we have
I suppose we could punt. This one really bothers me.
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She is quite a way off.
haven't had a chance to yet.
MR. FISHER: I think it would be real poor precedent to
approve this thing. There is absolutely no basis for doing this - except
that she wants a nice round 20 years. This is a reserve appointment. We
never committed ourselves to a career.
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MR. FISHER: She has had a reserve appointment which
expires now and she has no gripe. We don't even terminate here. You just
don't extend her reserve appointment. She's 62 years old. We are giving
her a better break than the staff employees! We debated 15 minutes O about
your secretary, John, which had much more validity than this thing - and that
was only on age 60 to 61:
Karl, if you would like to go
he
back and argue with Lams, I think 1b has to understand that he's just not playing
ball with the regulations with this.
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We are just going to table it then?
I'll take this with me and do something with it.
. . . The Board agreed to table the case of
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Yes. Just give me back the original and I'll
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MR. FISHER: Let's skip
to go until February.
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I
ntil the next meeting . . .
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MR. FISHER: Okay,
to read the additional documentation?
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Did you all have a chance
MR. WARNER: It doesn't add very much.
MR. FISHER: Well, as you can see, this is not unrelated to
the one where we just gave six months. I must admit that when I first picked up
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0
(when he worked with
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on how can we all keep records better. I must admit that it never dawned on
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me that he was at that print
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when compared to the
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request for domestic qualifying service in mind. It indicated that the support
of the training and briefing operations gave the area division operational people
an opportunity to develop rapport with the foreign services concerned. I have
some trouble with him,
This may have been very different
or others. Certainly I would have to
agree that the history written here, which was written
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request I had in mind his TDY I
She's not ready
. . . The Board agreed to table the case of
MR. FISHER: Yes, but I assume it was not done with
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It says here that
is striving
to get more information for us.
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He was going to appear before the Board, wasn't
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submit this additional information and the endorsements. The most knowledgeable
men on this would have beene a couple of retirees who are not available right
now.
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And these endorsements 4M -- I had him
George is one. He was FI.
I don't see that it meets any of the criteria
that we talk about. It's not practicing tradecraft, hazardous -- How can
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you put a handle on it? How cani put a handle on it?
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He did in fact develop and assess these people
that he was in contact with, and he passed the information on to these individuals
who signed these memos. I think he ought to be able to tell his case.
MR. FISHER: Well, let's get him up here.
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He needs a pretty good block of time here.
MR. FISHER: Yes, he does. He needs a very big block of time.
withdrew from the meeting
to appear before
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didn't have time.
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Our Board didn't sit on this downstairs. We
MR. FISHER: Ye s, I know. I missed that, I must say.
Do you handle this in your Board, Gordon?
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Yes, the whole Board sits.
I
MR. FISHER: We would like to hear some more from you,
terms of domestic qualifying service. We are supposed to find a hazard, or
stringent practice of tradecraft to protect your personal cover, and it's within
these guidelines that we find it a little hard in your case.
We have been exposed to individuals
who worked with liaison services and we do not normally give credit for that
sort of thing. Your's is a little different in that there was obviously some
development of assets coming out of this, too - without necessarily the practice
what
of stringent tradecraft. So I think/we would most like to hear in your own words
is that part of your duties that was involved in eliciting information.
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Well, during the period of time when I was
OLUT
entered the meeting at this time . . .
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.I'm sorry. I just don't see it. Not only that, but I hardly see the work if
he had 33 months of it.
already -- not that we are not going to call it as we see it -- but there's
Bill Colby with
services and unless you tell me you gave her credit for this time
I don't see it. I realize that there may be a slight inconsistency, but we only
had to find six months for the other fellow who personally developed\vhere
Now I have a little indication
he did a tour, and then came back here and developed witting informants -
as opposed to 33 months here. I think we are ready for a motion.
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Motion made, seconded, and passed not admitting
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saying she worked with these foreign intelligence
to the System . . .
called me this morning and wanted
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MR. FISHER: He'll appeal.
to know if I would call him when we had a decision.
I'll tell him.
he gets a memo.
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Okay. But it will be a little while before
He has a pretty good out with 28 years of
service at age 54.
MR. FISHER: When is his birthday, incidentally?
Will he lose 2%?
MR. FISHER: He's losing 3-3/4%. We now go
which is a rather complicated case. There was even some
question of whether or not we should put it on the Board, or whether I should
just make a determination that she's not even qualified for consideration.
Well, I wanted the Board to be a party to it.
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I think you will all recall the
language and the regulation which we have interpreted as not making our System
available to contract employees. It's okay for contract employees who convert
after they have already 6 vested and they can carry it. And so far we have
stayed pretty much with that. But truly, the language of the regulation is not
that contract employees can't get in, but that anyone who does not have a completely,
career oriented tour of duty with this Agency can't. As a matter of fact, why
don't we just read the regulation -
"Career means the predominant and long range orientation
of an employee's Agency service, past and present, as
well as plans for his future development and use. "
Now this is a gal who was a staff
employee from March, 1953, to March, 1958. She then went overseas with
her husband three years later - or in January of 1961 - and she was picked
up as a contract wife. She then had another gap and she went overseas again,
and for another year or so was again employed as a contract wife. She then had
a break in service of six months or so and was re-employed as a staff employee.
Then she left again and became a contract employee, which she is at the present
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time, having picked up employment
So the one question is -
Do we break sort of a long standing rule of bringing a contract employee into
the CIA System? We have never done that, and unless we can look back and
say - Yes, she's a real career employee -- My own judgment is that she
really wasn't. Her husband was a career employee and she happened to go
to places where she could be picked up as a contract wife, and when she wasn't
picked up she didn't work. So on this basis I don't see her as really eligible
for the CIA System. And even if she was, she is still a short on time.
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She had staff employee status when she went
overseas the first time around. When there was no staff job for her, she had
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I
for a couple of years.
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MR. FISHER: We are able to reinstitute that time.
I thought it said she was under Social Security.
? 2(b), (c), and (d) were under Social
Security. That one there would be optional time. She can pay it in or -
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So if she didn't pay in -
It would be 10% minus, yes.
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With all the breaks in service she comes up
with 14 years and eight months of Agency service and 21 years of Federal
MR. WARNER: Harry, I don't think you made it clear that
during the period of contract service, when she was on Social Security, that
she gets not only Social Security but Civil Service retirement credit. She gets
double credit.
MR. FISHER: That was a real windfall for her, because if
we couldn't have gone back and converted that to creditable service she wouldn't
even be eligible for Civil Service retirement.
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She could go under discontinued service
right now as a contract. She's 50 and has 21 years.
MR. FISHER: Yes. Now again, if we even saw her as eligible -
and she would be the first contract that we brought into the System as a contract
employee, as opposed to someone who has given us 18, 20 years and then converts
to contract.
MR. FISHER: When that new law came in she could get credit.
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She has only contributed to the retirement system
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We brought those in who had previously been
contract employees as staff --
MR. FISHER: No, not as contract. And even if we did all of
this, she still is short a couple of months. Now I don't really have the records.
I'm not even clear that she was a full time contract employee overseas, and I
suppose that that's not a critical item.
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I She was not a WAE. And on that break
between May, 1963, and August, 1963 - she resigned to go on leave with her
husband and came back and picked up again at the same place.
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I
not putting contract people in - she still doesn't have it. There's no way of
qualifying her.
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I
25X1A8Aconcern us downstairs here we may be bringing people in on contract
and keep them on contract, and we would like to include them in the System
of course. So you have one facing you - not soon, but sometime in the next
couple of years.
25X1A9A
We have a couple of rulings from OGC
MR. FISHER: We will cross it when we come to it, Gordon.
That is one of the major problems throughout. I don't blame them. They are
trying to get the best of both worlds and they have to get off it somehow. They
want to say we are not bureaucrats, we are not regular Government - these
new agents - and yet somehow they want to build in all the quirks that go with
being a Government employee.
MR. WARNER: John and I had a long session with them
yesterday and we gave them a sample contract that doesn't include any of these
kinds of things. Civil Service retirement for CIARDS takes no part in it.
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Well, even leaving aside the technicality here -
This raises an issue, Harry, that is going to
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MR. FISHER: He's indicating that it would be nice, and I
know his point. A guy could give us a tremendous 25 years down the road,
and you would like to put him in.
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Wouldn't they convert him to a career agent
and then we could put him in?
MR. WARNER: No. They want to go an independent con-
tractor route, so they tell me.
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. . . Off the record . . .
Well, we won't do it without you and John to
advise us, Harry.
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In this 17 April memo, paragraph 3(a),
(b), (c), (d), (e), and (f) don't carry much weight, but what about that three
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months
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did not get it.
We had a precedence case, and
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Then you would have to face the contract
question.
MR. WARNER: I still think we are 41 falling short, even if
she had the 60 months. The facts here just don't show a career concept.
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It was strictly for her convenience I would think.
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against women?
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MR. WARNER: That's right.
Does this in any way reflect discrimination
They would be these temporary indefinite types of appointments.
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MR. WARNER: She would pick up Civil Service by paying in.
But I was talking about the career status of it.
Nobody has that requirement, Bob.
She signed on to the staff with the intent of
making a career. She got married and accommodated to that of her husband,
but this doesn't lessen the fact that she wanted to carry on her career with
the Agency. It doesn't change that.
MR. WARNER: But the fact is that she didn't.
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She did in a contract capacity. We * couldn't
accommodate her in a staff job wherever he went, so it was OllIlIlIlliftcontract.
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At the first opportunity to convert to staff
status she did, and had it for four years.
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She had one one-year break, one three-year
break, and one six month break.
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But they all were probably to accommodate her
husband's moves - his job - and whatnot.
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There was no opportunity to resume status
after the first break. He was on home leave and went ? right back overseas again.
The second time there might have been a chance. The third time there was very
little chance.
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Headquarters
bilities for one year.
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In March, 1957, she was reassigned to
- and resigned for domestic responsi-
Why the termination of staff status in 1970?
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MR. FISHER: I assume her husband moved
He rred in 1970.
If she had continued being a staff employee, then
we would have real good evidence that that was her intent all along.
MR. USHER: I don't know. It's not black and white, is it?
in terms of out of a potential 19 years that began in March of 1953 through
March of 1972 -- with four periods of contract service. She's got 14 years.
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She would still have the OGC ruling -
you can't put a contract in.
MR. FISHER: Well, OGC proposes and disposes. We can't
rule out the fact that they could readdress themselves to the question of the
definition that I read. Again, I must admit that my instinct is against it, but --
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MR. WARNER: But again, to designate a participant the person
must be serving on a career basis.
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is retired
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4ft She simply is not serving on a career basis at this
MR. FISHER: Do we have a motion?
You're moving too fast. I still say that that
interpretation of whether she's serving on a career basis - You could be
contract and serving on a career basis.
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All contract employees have terminal dates, therefore they can't be career.
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You could say that the first reason is that she
MR. FISHER: Then you have the question - Why should
we even be considering it if she isn't qualifying?
MR. WARNER: If you had a true career case you would really
squeeze for a month.
MR. FISHER: If they had been serving on a career basis.
The definition of a career is what bothers me. It says - .... the predominant
and long range orientation of an employee's Agency service, past and present,
as well as plans for his future development and use. "
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I
fact that she accommodated to her husband's moves -
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MR. WARNER: She picked up work wherever she could.
I
settled on the contract. She did pick a career in CIA, then she married her
husband, moved, and we treated her like a woman who is a second class citizen.
We are coming * face to face with it all the time.
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employment with CIA.
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I think her marriage was her career, not her
MR. WARNER: Teaching gymnastics is a career with CIA?
Running a women's club?
State is taking a position that a woman can be
married and follow a position in the Foreign Service.
MR. WARNER: I agree, but this one didn't.
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Er. 1,
I feel that her's fits in that category. The
We didn't have staff status for her, so she
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after she married, I think she probably would have. We don't have the records
here to show what transpired. We do this with oix own wives downstairs.
They're staff when they're here, and when they go overseas they lose their staff
status. If we have a job for them we give it to them, otherwise we work
out a contract. It's the same situation again.
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without pay status.
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I
For two years, and then they lose that benefit.
She signed a form saying she'd go overseas.
How could she sign a written obligation to serve anywhere at any time?
MR. WARNER: She couldn't.
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I
let her do that. Therefore, she wasn't working on a career in the career service.
25X1A9A
We have a great many people who signed that form,
Karl - to go anywhere at any time for the good of the service. For many
reasons they don't.
MR. FISHER: I can't add up her missing that much time.
She came in in March, 1953. She started in March, 1953, so to March, 1972,
would be 19 years. Now May has passed, so it's 19 years and two months,
but I only see four years and seven months as contract. Is there a gap?
Well, out of her total 19-year potential she worked 14-1/2 years for us. I don't
know.
I'm trying to look for a minute --
beneath all the technical jargon -- and say - Did she really give us as much
time as she possibly cool d on a career basis?
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And generally you put them in a leave
No, she couldn't - her husband wouldn't
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She had a break from 1958 to 1961 and
she just has "for domestic responsibilities. "
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The children.
No, the last child was born in 1951 -
according to the profile anyway.
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Yes, under the circumstances.
Well, I won't chew it to death, but I see it as a
precedent case that we are going to be dealing with downstairs.
MR. WARNER: But we have had other precedent cases
exactly like this.
25X1A9A
Not exactly like this. I think her initial
intention was a career, and the fact that she continued as staff until she married --
25X1A9A
She was already married when she came
on. She took a staff job with the Agency and she only gave up the staff job when
we OM couldn't accommodate her.
MR. FISHER: In terms of a couple that worked here, it's the
general feeling that one's career is sort of dominant - and I won't say that it's
the man necessarily.
25X1A9A
I
now by the U. S. Government and by State, which has always taken the opposite
position - that both can have a career.
MR. FISHER: When the time comes for one to take an
assignment, they can't just sit there and say - We can't go because you would
be interferring with his or her career. So once you decide that you say -
We want you to go overseas and the other one has to accommodate, and in that
sense she's subordinating her career to that of her husband.
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This is a position that I think is being challenged
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If she had had staff status in January of 1966
and she had applied for CIARDS, would she not have gotten it then?
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No, because the overseas time in (b),
(c), and (d) - up until December of 1970 - was not good time. We figured
if it was not good for retirement, it wasn't good for qualifying service either.
MR. FISHER: But again, it's a bit of a technicality. Had
that law been passed earlier, his question would be a valid one.
MR. WARNER: Congress is pretty important when it passes
a law, and in addition to *ich they have given her double credit.
MR. FISHER: Let's projects it into the future, John. Someone
has "X" number of years of contract service for us and then converts to staff,
and after four or five years as a staff employee he applies. We would be able
to take him in.
MR. WARNER: Indeed. The law has changed.
25X1A9A
And when she left to go back to contract in
November of 1970, we would have been forced to remove her from the System
because she would not have had a vested right - that is, 15 years with the Agency.
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She wouldn't have had 15 years?
MR. ESHER: If you vested a right after 15 years, then we
don't take it away from someone because they converted to contract.
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went back to contract.
She only had about 12-1/2 years when she
MR. FISHER: I do feel that we should indicate that even if
qualifying she doesn't have the qualifying service, but I must admit it's putting
the two together. She needed two months. I'm thinking about some to come.
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MR. WARNER: What was the grade of her husband, Murray?
do you remember?
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No, I don't.
25X1A9A
I guess he was a 13, but I don't know for sure.
MR. WARNER: His was the dominant career. He moved
around and she quite if she had to and picked up a job if she could.
MR. FISHER: You have no problem, Bob?
This proposed M memo covers all three
MR. FISHER: Okay. It appears to me that the consensus
of the Board is clearly that she is a contract employee and as such is not qualified
for designation - with a minority vote.
. . . Motion made, seconded, and passed not
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25X1A9A
into the System with
I assenting . . .
MR. FISHER: Murray, I didn't even get to
25X1A9A
25X1A6A
Yes, and he's here TDY
He's going back Friday I think. I had him sign an application yesterday just in
case he would be approved.
MR. FISHER: Well, he seems to have it.
25X1A9A
has some pretty good stuff.
MR. FISHER: To begin with he doesn't'. need very much.
(laughter. )
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25X1A1
3C
25X1A13C
I don't see any problem with the
six months, without even considering his time on
and so on. Does anybody have any problem with this one? (No response. )
May I have a motion?
25X1A9A
. . . Motion made, seconded and passed approving
for inclusion into the System . . .
. . . Meeting adjourned at 4:15 p.m.
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 STATINTL
STATINTL
Ap
Ap
IF T P Sol
UNCLASSIFIED
CONFIDENTIAL SECRET
OFFICIAL ROUTING SLIP
TO
NAME AND ADDRESS
DATE
INITIALS
z
JUN 1972
4
ACTION
DIRECT REPLY
PREPARE REPLY
APPROVAL
DISPATCH
RECOMMENDATION
COMMENT
FILE
RETURN
CONCURRENCE
INFORMATION
SIGNATURE
Remarks : h
Qq/) CL9 ~-~ co +~ol~
--~ 4~ n G~ UM W ~y
FOLD HERE TO RETURN TO SENDER
FROM: NAME, ADDRESS AND PHONE NO.
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FORM NO. 237 Use previous editions
1-67