MEETING OF PERSONNEL DEVELOPMENT BOARD 15 MARCH 1962

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 29
• Document Creation Date: December 12, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 13, 2002
• Sequence Number: 3
• Publication Date: March 15, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

Approved - FQ,Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0184000300070003-3
15 March 1962
. . . . The meeting of the Personnel Development Board convened at
3-00 p.m. on Thursday, 15 March 1962, in the D/Pers Conference Room. The
following were present:
Emmett D. Echols, Chairman
[ording Secretary
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
MR. ECHOLS: , your paper on a mid-career training program
is obviously the major item for discussion here. Would you want to take over and
approach it any way you want to approach it.
25X1A9A
I'd like to read a few things that seemed to indicate that
it is incumbent upon the Director to give consideration to a mid-career course of
The first item -- and these are all late, items -- General Taylor, who
is Chairman of the President's Special Group for Counter-insurgency, reported to
the Special Group, and I must assume to the President, that the CIA does not lend
itself to mid-level training. This was based on his observation of the CIA training
establishment. Therefore, we have no course which fills the need for mid-level
type of training contemplated in rNAM-1317. Let me read -- this is what General
Taylor said, and this is what he has told the President. Let me for the record
indicate too that the National Security Action Group and the Special Group consist
of General Taylor as Chairman, the Attorney General, the Deputy Under-Secretary for
Political Affairs, the Deputy Secretary for Defense, the Chairman of the JCS, the
DCI, the Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, and the
Administrator of AID. One of the missions of this Special Group is to ensure
Approved For Release 2002/082 P80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approver Release 2002/0,8/28 : CIA RI8O-01826ROOO3OOO7OOO3-3
the adequacy of training in the Department of State, Defense, AID, USIA, and CIA.
The next item that brings attention to Government agencies having a
mid-career course was a statement made by Senator Jackson, chairman of the Senate
Subco ttee on National Policy Machinery. Now this is a quote from "The Federal
See attachment A)
Spotlight"/ [13 March 1962) recounting some of the items Senator Jackson covered:
"Government civilian generalists should have integrated
knowledge and understanding of military matters, modern
weaponry and its capabilities, technological development,
procurement, use of intelligence service, use and limitation
of propaganda and political warfare, international relations
and other knowledge relating to national security matters,
Senator Jackson said. 'No one is being trained for such
jobs in an organized way,' he declared. 'In this respect
our civilian career services have much to learn from the
training and promotion system of the armed forces which is
designed to develop the general staff officer,' Senator
Jackson observed."
Now, concluding my little speech I'd like to point out that while
a tentative mid-career course has been prepared by the Office of Training the
preparation of that was based pretty much on pulling some of the material presently
being given the various courses out for re-treading at mid-career level. By
reason of the Counterinsurgency Group's efforts and Senator Jackson's efforts
about mid-career training, this training course of six weeks is somewhat out of
focus -- so the proposal that has gone up will have to be re-done. But first, I
do think that once again we ought to consider requirements. Well, first of all,
I suggest this meeting either agree
mid-career course. And following that I think we should consider what the require-
ments for a mid-career course should be - straight across-the-board. And then
following that, who will attend the course and what pressures will be brought to
bear to create attendance.
Would you describe counterinsurgency to me? What 25X1 A9A
does this new term really mean?
No, I won't attempt it,
25X1A9A
The definition of terms is? ,,,, 25X1
being worked over by a special committee in the Department of Defense, and they
have not agreed on the term or a definition for counterinsurgency that has been
officially accepted by all agencies concerned.
25X1A9A
Let me interject my objection. I do not think we should
consider a mid-career course in terms of the requirements that are being levelled
upon the Agency for counterinsurgency training.. I think if this is a mid-career
2
Approved For Release 2002/ DP8O-O1826ROO0300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-04.8,26R000300070003-3
course for CIA personnel that would involve the DD/I, DDS and DD/P it should be
broad in its concepts. It should prepare these individuals for wider responsibilities,
whether we have a counterinsurgency situation or whether we have the world in a more
normal situation than it is right now. The problem of the Counterinsurgency Sub-
committee of the Special Group is'being handled - not well, I grant you - by the
Director and a few others trying to get to the Director with: What are you going to
do? But we may end up by asking for the development of a course on counterinsurgency
for certain senior officers who are going to certain areas that remain critical. We
are fighting valiantly to stay away from taking the whole world in a modernization
concept and moving the underdeveloped areas up to our standards, as the State Depart-
ment would like to do it and train people on that basis. We are trying to target
ourselves into a certain specific critical area. This thing is for our 13's and 14's
o move at a particular time in their service to get the broadening education that is
necessary in order to move from shall we say a. targeted or spotlighted experience
ackground into the broader supervisory and responsible positions which they take over, such as, from our point of view, a Deputy Chief of Station, a Chief of Station,
and things of that nature.
I don't think we should allow this counterinsurgency bit to influence
our thinking, and I use the term: we have to think big and broad and long, as far as
we are concerned. The counterinsurgency bit is a separate deal. And we buy this
particular concept, particularly since you have approached it from the point of view
of the core of your instruction which is going to be common to all individuals,
whether DD/I or DDS. or DD/P, with the intent to expand. upon or extend the education
of the individual after that six or seven weeks into those areas which are most useful
to - say in my case, the DD/P, you see. And we think this is the way it should be
done. I don't know about the DD/I and DDS - what their approach to this is, but I
would suggest that they comment. We are perfectly agreed with (1) the need for
education at this time in a man's career, (2) the approach you made on it --
recognizing that this is not Just all one world, that within the Agency there are
certain requirements over and above the hard core -- as you have indicated in here,
for example, that a DDS individual might go to Harvard for six or eight months
after the 6-weeks' core..
I do not know at the present time what additional education we would
give individuals, but it might be on an ad hoc basis, once they had the hard core
3
Approved For Release 2002/
-3
Mij
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28: CIA-RDP80-Q 26R000300070003-3
and had been selected. based upon their performance in the last 10 or 15 years -
selected for this particular period of education. DeB agrees with me at this
particular time we approach this in a similar fashion as you do attendance at the
National War College, Armed Forces Staff College, and all the rest of these things.
And while you have more people involved than you do have slots in this particular
school, is a matter that has to be developed as an honors' course -- the guy who
is selected for this is the individual who is probably going to get a pretty good
job later.
So I would say in summary that we buy this concept. We would like
to build upon. it. We would recommend at the Career Council that this particular
concept be accepted, with the various Debut Directorates to ssing_.in_.their ideas as
to what should follow after the hard core rou _have accepted for their particular
individuals, and that these individuals should be selected at a time when they are a
13 or a 14, or possibly a 15, based upon the rapidity with which the individual pro-
gresoes through his career - for this type of training - in anticipation of more
responsible assignments. I don't like the CI concept being involved in it.
25X1A9A
to do.
Well, it won't go away.
No, and we have to do somethingabout it, but not here.
I don't think we should push it aside, as you seem to want
I don't want to push it aside, I just don't want to consider
it in the context with this one.
25X1A9A
If we want to consider it a mid-career course I think we have
to put in it something that satisfies the requirements directed toward us.
25X1A9A
That is not the point -- whether we have a mid-career course
or not is the point. Part of the mid-career course may very well be recognition of
a bloc of instruction involving counterinsurgency.
25X1A9A
All right - I'll buy that. But let me get this in the right
framework -- General Taylor has told CIA that they must label their courses--
25X1A9A No he hasn't.
4
Approved For Release 2002/(th rec1Y-RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved FFoor Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0 8 6R000300070003-3
25X1A9A
He did it in my presence. He is heading up this Committee-
This was the mistake made in having them go down there
without having somebody along who was trying to direct his attention in the right
field. We are teaching counterinsurgency in all the various aspects.
25X1A9A
But we have no one course, and he says--
He..,told you that down at
25X1A6A
but the point is as far
as this NAM is concerned what he needs is a cross-fertilization of the senior officers
'involved in the carrying out of the functions of counterinsurgency in the various and
sundry agencies of Government. That is what we are trying to make the Boss under-
stand -- but its very difficult to get to the Boss. Now we may be faced with -
come next week or the week after next: You will label a course counterinsurgency.
We have a dozen courses we could label that, and satisfy this requirement. We don't
want to do that -- we hope we could do it in a way that we could say that we are
teaching those things related to counterinsurgency and put in blocks of instructions
inviting people in the course to the counterinsurgency problem. But our main need
at the present time is for a course - interdepartmental - which establishes as (1}
the U. S. Government's position in trying to attack this problem; (2) the functions
and responsibilities of the various departments involved; (3) the relationship between
the various and sundry Government departments who are involved, and an understanding
upon the part of the senior officers who are going to represent those agencies over-
seas as to how they work together. That is what we need -- not a course inside of
CIA. That is what we are trying to get across -- that is what we are hopeful of --
and they're talking over there right now in a special group -- I don't know whether
it's going to work. And if they come down and say, "You have to give a course in
counterinsurgency" - fine, but it's not this course.
25X1A9A
D
I'll buy what you said a few minutes ago -- I don't know just
how you phrased it -- (1) that we do need a mid-career course; (2) that we must fuse
into this mid-career course some of the elements of counterinsurgency, so-called.
25X1A9A
I
If counterinsurgency is one of the problems of the world at this time then have a
block of instruction instructing these particular individuals. But this should not
Approved For Release 2002~-RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
I would say this course should never be static, you see.
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0 8 6R000300070003-3
be labelled or be called a counterinsurgency course. This is our mid-career course,
and it encompasses a wider spectrum than o teriurgency. It might go into what
the Department is now calling "modernization", in which they have 50 missions through-
out the world they are worried about -- this is the bringing of underdeveloped areas
to a place where they can be developed. The problem we are faced with is a fear
in
that/the Department's attempt to develop the institution of modernization studies to
consider 50 missions they forget there are probably six to ten places in the world
where people are shooting each other. That is the problem we have right now. That
is the problem we want to attack.
25X1A9A
Of course that is much further advanced than this problem here.
They want to put the modernization studies in effect next
fall, to develop means whereby you determine what steps society should go through to
become a more sophisticated society. Its so broad. It's like taking the world. and
space around it. When we have a problem in Vietnam., Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, certain
places in Latin America -- you have to attack those right now. Our problem is to try
to get this particular group to focus on that particular, specific series of areas
where we should do something now. There is no, objection to the philosophical approach.
to this thing on modernization, but we say let's do first things first.
Well, I'm out of breath.
M. ECHOLS: I haven't been privy to all of this business on a counter-
insurgency course, but off-hand I think I would strongly endorse your rindicatin.
position myself. I think our immediate problem with which we are5X1A9A
involved in Training is much broader than that specific problem.
25X1A9A
I would like to underline one of the points that Bill made
in regard to this core program and that is that I think one of the important things
to do first of all, before we even talk about what some of the problems are or some
of the approaches, is to be sure this has top-management backing. Until we know
the DCI or the DDCI is heartily in favor of the same thing recommended previously,
I think it's a mistake to launch this sort of thing, because the permissiveness of
training here has been a problem all the way along, and unless we are very sure
Approved For Release 2002/~P80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0.1J8 6R000300070003-3
that there will be some kind of sincere pressure on people to do this, I think it's
going to be a waste of time.
25X1A9A
had a further discussion of some of our problems and the underlying management
philosophy that has to be spelled out specifically, I should think some kind of a
paper forwarded for his approval might be a way to get at this.
25X1A9A
How do you suggest we go about that?
I don't know. I think some kind of report -- after we have
Doesn't the Career Council recommend action to the
Director?
25X1A9A
And I believe this is to go to the Career Council.
MR. ECHOES: But I think you may be going to points like this: we haven't
decided all the magnitude of this effort but if it is to involve let's say 200 people
a year for as long as six months, this has ceiling ramifications and budget rami-
fications of considerable importance, and the Director is going to have to subscribe
to such a program in terms of ceiling and overages and what not. So just to say:
Are you in favor of a mid-career training program yes? or no? -- may not be the
adequate solution.
Back a long time ago the then Deputy Director had 5% in
training
25X1A9A
I would try to vote against that sort of approach.
I would, too. It doesn't make any sense.
But I think you are perfectly right, Dorothy, we should establish a
dimension to this particular exercise, which. he could recognize and say: All right,
based on the number of people I have on board here, we will have yearly or twice a
year -- whatever it may be -- so many of them involved in "advanced training". Then
I think it's possible, practical, feasible, and I go for it. But we're asking him
to read into a situation about which he knows very little, and we have been worrying
about it for the past couple of years.
25X1A9A
D
Another thing I am ignorant about but would like to know a
Approved For Release 2002 - DP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved for Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-016R000300070003-3
3{P,flEf
little more about is the references I have seen to the DIA courses or school that
is going to be set up for intelligence officers, and I'm wondering to what extent
this might possibly be something that would be star-studded enough so that we
wouldn't want to be in conflict with that in any way -- ours would be a much more
personalized planning program for each individual, or whether we tie into that, or
what our relationship would be here.
25X1A9A
We could quite possibly tie into it, but I don't think we
would say they are in competition--
25X1A9A
The DIA, as I understand, is attempting to train a core of
intelligence officers within the military.
25X1A9A
25X1 school
The DIA school is a new one which combines the naval attache
with the DIA effort to bring to that school I think
some 200 potential attaches for an eight to ten month course which will include some
language, some area, and some State Department training -- extension of Communist
influence, Communist operations -- and then separate the class to a certain extent
and bring them into naval intelligence, air intelligence, military intelligence, and
then let them go abroad to their courses.
25X1A9A Now I have talked ti who is the Director of Training
for DIA, and he has indicated in the event we would want such a thing for training
purposes or for cover purposes, or just to have a slot or two there every year, we
are perfectly welcome -- and we should be, because we contribute quite a number of
the lecturers. But that is a different thing altogether.
25X1A9A
Isn't it possible, Bill, we might - after they establish the
DIA school - find it useful to not go for just a couple of slots but to have some of
the individuals in this mid-career bit participating in some of the lectures that
take place over there in the DIA?
25X1A9A
25X1 A9Puld make to
I think we would be welcome there in almost any proposal we
I think as one of the things he would be perfectly willing
for us to go over the course with him. As a matter of fact, he has taken a lot of
1169161
Approved For Release 2002/0 DP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Appro ed, For Release 2002/08/28: CIA-RDP8GQ826R000300070003-3
S~f 11~Ef
Well, with the Career Council are we iu rs yvrti-i-i, 116u.,
now to be specific enough at a Career Council to say that we agree with what you
have recommended and we are going to pass it along to the DCI, and is that proposal
in a situation where the DCI can recognize shape, weight, and other dimensions and
make a decision? I like the core concept and I like the extension which will be
part and parcel of each Deputy Directorate's development of its own group of indi-
viduals that are selected for this particular additional training.
Do you think we should get the usual approval in principle, Dorothy,
or do you, think something more specific?
25X1A9A
1 -1
I don't know. I don't know what we had in mind today. There
are four or five things that occur to me we ought to give some thought before we
present it to the Career Council, otherwise what would go to the DCI would be a
little vague.
One of them I have in mind is I think the manner of selection of
these people and the standards by which we are selecting would really require manpower
planning 10 to 15 years in the future, and I think we better do a better job of
planning and setting standards of what we are trying to select for, and with proper
placement after this kind of training, which is going to be very costly, than we are
now doing.
25X1A9A
I
sure a couple of years in advance we have to do _a similar job as we do right now
with the National War College and other schools of that stature. I believe in the
fall we select the individuals going next August. We may even have to extend that
to a year or so in advance. But we do have to establish how many people--
is mid-career.
25X1A9A
Can be 13 or 15--
Yes, particularly since we have a lot of catching up
mean in the beginning we will have 15's in--
Until we get caught up.
9
Approved For Release 2002/ 1 -RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
I'm not sure I agree with the 10 years in advance, but I'm
 Approved For Release 2002/08128 : CIA-RDP80-01 2 R000300070003-3
'~EBfl'Ef
25X1A9A
D
That is possible. That is why I wanted the wide spread.
I think perhaps later on we might say the 13's and l4's are the eligible group --
and if a character hasn't made this particular selection by the time he is a 14,
he is going to remain a 14, and the individual who does make it at 13 or 14 has
prospects of working into the supergrades and larger responsibilities. But we
certainly aren't ready for it now.
25X1A9A
Incidentally, we are very much for this thing just as
2 5X1AiAu [indicatin said here, but whether that applies to the DD/I --
this was the reason I asked what is counterinsurgency -- whether it is an action
program which in a sense leaves us out of the picture, then I certainly agree it
perhaps should be touched on as one of the four points - understanding of national
policy machinery or impact of international communism.
We like the idea of the core program and the additional individual
time. We have had a meeting of all our Assistant Directors and Mr. Amory on this,
and we talked about it at some length., so I'm speaking for the DD/I top management,
and it was agreed that we would like to have the total number per year around 15
or 20. We think our additional training will probably be academic, which is a
9-month run, so you add 6 weeks to 9 months, and if you have two groups twice a
year out on this, this begins to be fairly painful -- because we don't expect we
are going to. drop all the other types of training that go on. So we would like to
.see this once a year, with this limited, as you said, to 50 or 60 - somewhere in
there, which would give us 15 or 20. And it was agreed that we would select these
people, we would not ask for volunteers at all, as we did for the national colleges.
We will, select a DD/I group. I asked if we should do as we so often do in our
areas - we give a quota to every office and say, "You come up with two" and "You
come up with one" -- and they agreed with me we would not do this, that we will
have a selection program and designate the guvs to go, and they will be selected
from the DD/I as a whole, not from each office.
MR. ECHOLS: You would place the responsibility and authority for the,
selection of individuals with the Deputy Director, is that right?
25X1A9A
That is right.
MR. ECHOLS: And he in turn could do it through his subordinate Career
10
Approved For Release 2002M&HRDP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0 8822 R000300070003-3
Services, in all probability.
25X1A9A
Well, we would certainly ask for them to designate
individuals -- and double the number, or whatnot, of the quota -- and then we have
two DD/I:-wide boards or groups who I would visualize would make the final selection
and take them to Mr. Amory and say, "These are the 15 guys we want to send." And
there might be a couple of offices that didn't make it -- we wouldn't try necessarily
to have some from each office there.
MR. ECHOLS: How would you determine the total magnitude of the Agency
program annually?
25X1A9A
It would seem to me Training should make an estimate
of what they could handle. If you are going to have seminar discussions you would
want small groups -- we don't want a room with 200 people you can only talk at.
MR. ECHOLS: At the same time, we don't want Training to say, "Okay, we
will set up a course to handle two groups of 100 a year" - and then have ten show
up from each Deputy Directorate.
25X1A9A
We think one course a year with 15 or 20 out of us,
at the most -- because, as I say, we visualize losing these people for a year.
25X1A9A
Can you handle that now, as you see it now, without addi-
tional development slots?
25X1A9A
There is no such thing as a development slot -- we
don't use development slots. They count against your T/O -- what good do they do
you? They aren't over and above your active T/O. A development slot counts against
you. What does a development slot prove? It's a man out of your work force. So
this is my point - we don't think we can handle more than 15 or 20 a year. And
this again would be a burden on the offices they have never faced up to before.
If we add to this a lot of academic training, which we now feel -- having been in
business for 10 or 12 years and having a group of analysts who have been on the job
for 10 or 12 years, we now have to get into a sabbatical type program. We have
done a lot of talking about this -- and here is something we could hitch that thinking
to - right onto this core. And this would have a bearing, perhaps, on the time of
Approved For Release 2002/0DP80-01826R000300070003-3
tv"WKWIN
 Approved Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80=01_R000300070003-3
S'~CRE~
year you gave the course. If our people could come out of this say toward the
beginning of an academic year then they would have this and go on -- or even the
other way around -- I don't know that that matters.
25X1A9A
What do you think about numbers, Bill?
I'm inclined to go along with Von. I'm just wondering
about whether we should think in terms of two classes a year, or whether or not we
should look at the over-all program which an individual may be involved in -- six
or seven weeks plus another four or five months -- in which you're going to have
these 15 or 20 individuals occupied for a year's period. If you try to do this
twice a year it can definitely be a burden.
25X1A9A
Yes, it becomes a burden. Its pretty heavy.
inclined to go along with the once a year business.
If we had these development slots we could use and
not count, that would be different.
25X1A9A
. . . . Off the record . . . .
I think in some instances in the DDS there would be
places we would have to do an actual filling of a slot while the person is gone.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
back to different jobs.
25X1A9A
We simply could not really guarantee they would come
I suggest now we have one class a :near of 60.
Remember, we have a 4th Directorate now, and he would
want a piece of this, I guess.
Would this be a matter of a transfer back to the same slot?
I would hope he was not going back into the same slot.
MR. ECHOLS: Many would be between assignments.
Approved For Release 2002/ ~ ft -RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved FRelease 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018262000300070003-3
IWO
C! r_ M Q&JWM
25X1A9A
class per year of 60.
25X1A9A
We would have five with the Director's Office. So one
I
gang out of town -- like State Department takes its group to Front Royal, and our
people going steadily to this course think that is a great gimmick - it's very
effective.
25X1A9A
Yes, I think for some of the scientific and technical
business visits would fit well into this course.
25X1A9A
One of the problems I recognize Training will have, and I
would have no doubt they can circumvent in some way, is that in the early runs of
the course for the first couple of years you will inevitably have some material
repetition to some of the people in it, particularly if you're going to the 15
level, and this may mean in order to set the tone that you want right at the outset
for this thing a doubling up of small groups. from time to time -- which I think
Training was ready to take on, if necessary, as a device.
25X1A9A
I would think as you develop the four major points
of this six week core here that you wouldn't have to expand it a great deal more -
the proposed schedule, etc. - to get approval from the-Career Council and from the
Director. I don't think either the Council or the Director want to see a daily
schedule sort of thing. Our AD's were quite impressed by the four slices that you
took here -- granted they are all-encompassing, each one -- but not an awful lot
beyond that I should think would be needed to give you the authority to develop the
course.
25X1A9A
O
I do think you are right,
but I would go along with 25X1
25X1A A teat he should establish for the sake of the Deputy Directors who
are going to be there at the Career Council what this does mean as far as the
number of people--
25X1A9A
Oh yes, all this business of numbers. I'm talking
about the curriculum now, as to whether we thought the Director ought to have a
lot more detail to give his blessing to this course. It wouldn't seem he would
need much more than you have here, and you probably have more in your mind than this--
Approved For Release 2002/
13
I would visualize for some part of this taking the
 Approved FWr Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018. 62 000300070003-3
25X1A9A
Yes, I have all of the details here.
25X1A9A MR. ECHOLS: you have in the DD/P a very cyclical
rotation between Headquarters and overseas activities -- people go out in late
spring or early summer, and they return about the same time, go on home leave, and
return to duty in let's say late summer. Is there a requirement here that this
be staggered to meet your cycles somehow? Is the fall of the year the essential
time?
25X1A9A
There is no guarantee all the individuals who would be
selected for this are necessarily individuals coming back from overseas -- they
may be individuals who are going out next year. But for the sake of the point you
are making, it is a valid one -- I think the fall of the year would be the ideal
time fbr us to try to begin this thing. A rotation is usually completed by the
end of September, and people are back from home leave.
25X1A9A
6-week course in September.
25X1A9A
But we don't meet an academic year if you starta
It won't meet the academic year if ydu are going to then
25X1A9A
To fit with university experience.
MR. ECHOLS: I think this is a very serious matter here, because if these
people come back from overseas and sit around for 20 months the first thing you
know they have been injected into a job and you can't pry them loose. And then
if you try to get them before going on a new assignment, again they are getting
ready for a new assignment, etc., and it's hard to pry them loose. It's almost
before a man enters into a new assignment that you have to work in something like
this.
25X1A9A
And summer is not the right time to propose this either.
It almost would have to be the last of the spring session--
25X1A9A
~nk we have to write the summer off for so many reasons.
You wouldn't get your lecturers.
14
Approved For Release 200 -RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
00
 Approved F ;9
,,Release 2002/08/28: CIA-RDP80-018268000300070003-3
25X1A9A
rest of the year and summer is the only time they can go away. We have a rotation
problem in the DD/P and DD/S. The instructors would have the same problem the
students would have in the matter of leave and vacations, etc. So the months of
June, July, and August look like they should be written off.
25X1A9A I What would happen if you started some of this training in
March, April and May, or April and May, and then had a lapse for the summer, in
order to take advantage of the academic year for the DD/I, particularly?
25X1A9A
Take the ordinary family - the kids are in school the
I think that would be all right for the DD/I, but then the
DD/P people who are going and coming would be out of cycle. It's difficult to
25X1A9A
They want to stay overseas until their girls and boys are
teems to happen that way. That is not written down
anywhere, but it seems to work that way.
25X1A9A
out of school, and then when they get back here they want to get settled in time
for school. This is a family problem.
MR. ECHOLS: Let me ask a question, and carry this one step forward.
Assuming we come back with a revised program -- anal r might wan? 5to1A9A
do that in line with what we have been discussing, and perhaps will want to build
in something of that counterinsurgency, etc.
No, not in this. Von's thought here was that this woulX1A9A
. Will you have an annual rhythm of going and coming?
y are two separate and distinct problems.
do on page 6 - "Proposed Schedule".
D
got here.
25X1A9A
Put a little more meat in it, perhaps, than you've
25X1A9A
I would suggest you don't do any more than that, really,
15
Approved For Release 2002/q DP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For ,Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-01822668000300070003-3
for the simple reason that the more you give people on the top side the more they
have an opportunity to nit-pick -- and if they turn around and say, "All right,
we approve the idea" - they can nit-pick after the thing is prepared -- and
after all, the second course won't be the same as the first, and we will do this
by study, research., experience, etc.
MR. ECHOLS: I wasn't referring to specific amendments in that sense,
but I was going to suggest you augment the paper with a paragraph or so about the
ceiling and budgetary implications of the numbers. And I was going to ask the
further question: how would you recommend that the Agency implement a program like
this? The thing I'm dreadfully afraid of is-that somebody ill-advisedly is going
to get out and get on a lecture podium and start shouting about the wonders of our
mid-career development program and give the wrong impression to thousands of
employees that just because they are a GS-12 or 13 or just because they are age 40
they are automatically going to be picked up and pushed off to a mid-career
training program. The worst thing we could possibly do in this Agency is to
over-sell this thing. Any acclaim that arises to this program should be based
upon the experience of people and the results attained, rather than what publicity
we put out.
25X1A9A
I think we have had an experience in that field, Emmett --
well, it's worked out all right - almost everyone knows that we have so many
slots - three in the National War College, and that people are selected for those
slots. Well, I imagine on the personnel rotation data sheets that come through
every year perhaps the wish is expressed by 25 or 30 that they be selected for
the National War College. So with the numbers' limitation and the clear explan-
ation that this is a selection process and you're appointed to take this course
would make everybody understand what is involved in their being selected or not
selected.
MR. ECHOLS: What I'm.coming to is if we're going to publish -- and it
may be desirable to do so -- if we are going to publish a Regulation which will
set forth a simple statement of Agency policy on mid-career development, I hope
it is a minimal Regulation that defines our policy objectives, I hope it indicates
that this will be to select a small number, limited by budgetary and other
16
Approved For Release 2002/0>QftIeDP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-01$,000300070003-3
considerations, and Iwould hope that it would then perhaps place the responsi-
bility for certain actions, and that is it.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
I agree - I don't think it requires great fanfare -
just enough so the people who are managing it and who are making the selections
fully understand what it is all about.
MR. ECHOLS: I was about to suggest perhaps we should develop, as an
implementing mechanism to go along with the proposal, an implementing Regulation
of this very
imple type.
I think that would be good.
25X1A9A
I
MR. ECHOLS: Just to carry it one step closer to getting approval or
action on this thing.
25X1A9A
Actually, the goal as stated in the Training memo here
originally had to do with -- I've forgotten what it said now -- the employee who
reaches mid-career and has potential ability to become a senior officer. Now
those are the same terms we are thinking of in this, rather than talking speci-
fically of executive capabilities, is this right?
25X1A9A
That is slicing it a bit thin. I would say senior officers
have executive responsibilities.
It's pretty hard to draw a line between those--
I
talking about this as executive development training for "generalist" officers or
whether this is going to take in the high-level specialists also, and I think that
should be defined before we get into the course contents.
25X1A9A I I I think we should we might send a crackerjack
analyst who was going to be the greatest man on Russian agriculture, just to give
him the experience of a sabbatical broadening, but he might never be an AD or a
Deputy AD -- but I think he would be a candidate for this sort of thing.
Approved For Release 2002/080-01826R000300070003-3
That wouldn't fill a page.
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018261000300070003-3
vwe NW
MR. ECHOLS: I would think so. Isn't the specific proposal made in
paragraph 3 -- the people we would propose to put into this program are those who
have demonstrated potential for future growth and development. It doesn't say
anything about senior positions. This is the one criterion - potential for growth.
and development -- and I think that is the proper basis. I don't think we should
compress this into too narrow a group at all. This is not an executive develop-
ment program as such, necessarily.
25X1A9A
jobs in the DD/I area.
25X1A9A
One course would produce all the AD and Deputy AD
We are thinking -- at least I am -- of this as something
5X1A6A
~
for the selection of an upcoming Chief of Station in a large station like
2 5X1A6 or something like that, that you can select two or three years
in advance the individuals or individual who quite possibly will move into that
thing -- he could very well go to this with the recognition of the fact that his
selection to attend this "honors' course" was tantamount to a recognition that he
has it made -- of course, he can always stumble, but he is on his way. I look at
this as a means whereby, to use the military approach, at a certain stage in your
history you are either selected and you know you are going to go up and get a star
or you better retire in the next couple of years because you're just going to stay
where you are. We don't have in this particular organization a 20-year retire-
ment, as they do in the military, but this is part of it, and this will be part of
it. Along about the time when you are selected for additional education its
indicative of the fact that you are one of those that has the potential, as the
Office of Training has said here, for greater growth. And the word will get around
pretty fast that you're going to. be a 13 or a 14 for the next 14 years if you want
to remain, that there are people who have to do those jobs, and they may not want
to retire you but you're not going to go very much further. I think this is part
and parcel of the business we have to develop.
25X1A9A
Could I make a pitch here for something that has come to
me through my experience and through comments that have been made to me by officers
at this level, that if there is any way we can work into it -- especially if it's
going to be this kind of a core -- something besides the case study and the lecture
Approved For Release 2002/08/2$1~~P80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-01RR000300070003-3
v
-6E8A'Efi
and the discussion group -- and I don't know what it would be -- which would in
some way involve them in some kind of Agency problem so that they felt that they
had some kind of participation in somethiTn thatureal~l~was a curren problem and
might make some contribution to it -- I think this could be a terrific dividend
for the course, if we could work out some way in which top management could show
they had that much faith in this group of highly selected officers to warrant the
attention of some of the things that they might work on.
MR. ECHOLS: Doesn't the program contemplate using case studies? Why
not make them actual studies as well as theoretical studies.
25X1A9A
I
senior seminar is a group of problems which have been prepared by the various
Under-Secretaries' offices, and the problems have a resemblance to current situations.
And much the same arrangement is made at the National War College where the Joint
Chiefs of Staff make up the problems and the student is required to write a 10,000
word thesis on the problem given to him by the JCS. Something like that I suppose
could be worked in, but we haven't been doing that here.
25X1A9A
Not in six weeks, though.
Well, the thesis is the problem at the National War College
and you have to do that in the first (six weeks 7.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
And at the same time attending full-time courses?
Yes. Of course, the full-time course at the National War
College is two hours of lectures plus an hour seminar in the morning, and then
the afternoon is for problem. discussion and the thesis -- the afternoon is free
for seminars and problem discussion and research and study. This course doesn't
provide for it -- it's only six weeks. I think it's a good idea, and I think it
should be developed.
25X1A9A
I do, too.
A common problem for 60 people would be out. We would have
to do it on a team basis, I think, and have four or five problems.
19
~gn
Approved For Release 2002/0
80-018268000300070003-3
One thing the Foreign Service Institute has included in their
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018266R_000300070003-3
o; N1
25X1A9A
I would hope somehow we get the Deputy Directors active in
this -- that this is their team of fellows for this given year, and that they
might come on down. and work with each of their teams and really talk over some of
the things that are of concern.
25X1A9A
I
They certainly should appear at this course at some
point, there is no question about that. I think we could dig up a little Training
Committee or an editorial group, or something, of people out of ONE or OCI, or
something of that kind, who would help. you [indicating for eac125X1 A9A
course perhaps develop some things that are hot at the moment.
MR. ECHOLS: Would you want,
25X1A9A
an implementing Regulation
to place the responsibility upon the Deputy Directors to participate in the develop-
25X1A9A
Oh no, I wouldn't want a Regulation on it.
25X1A9A
I don't think it ought to be in a Regulation, Emmett,
but I would hope when you do get down to the nuts and bolts here that we could
25X1A9A
have a hand with you (indicating
25X1A9A
The reason I don't want a Regulation is, for one thing,
that Dick Helms would not sit down with a training curriculum committee to iron
out some of the things that he feels should be in it -- and why should he? He has
a competent guy there that does it all the time. And Bob Amory couldn't do it -
or wouldn't do it. You don't regulate the Deputies into anything like this.
25X1A9A
Don't you already have it in the general statement the
Deputy Directors will provide either guidance--
MR. ECHOLS: I wasn't suggesting this as a means of compelling them to
do it but in order that the scope of the program would be better understood by
the reader of the Regulation.
25X1A9A
D
If they will just approve it, we will have no difficulty
getting it across. By merely approving it they are backing it fully.
MR. ECHOLS: Well, now, what kind of a package do we think we should
20
Approved For Release 2002/0 P80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0182,68000300070003-3
1%w 1%
25X1A9A
present to the Career Council and how soon do we think we can do that?
The recommendation as made by the Office of Training is
the substance of the remarks made, with the stipulation it should be once a year
and it should be 60--
And where it should be held. This is important, too.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
Yes. And the bud etary and personnel aspects that you
speak of. I'm not sure what you mean by budgetary, except if you do take these
lads for a trip it's 60 times X-number of dollars.
Once the course is approved we would have to figure that
out and put it in our budget.
I :A
When you say 60 -- is there any other problem you're going
to envisage if 15 or 20 are coming out of each Deputy Directorate? I think we just
have to live with this situation -- we have 15 or 20 individuals short of our
expected number.
MR. ECHOLS: I think you would establish an optimum size program, and
your capability to handle this number -- and you're going to fill it up each year,
you're not going to waste it.
O
And filling it up is part and parcel of the approach we
spoke of, and that is this is a super-duper, ultra-type of assignment, and you may
ask for it but that doesn't mean you will get it -- just like the National War
College -- taut people will be selected for this particular education.
I I suspect that what will be needed, though, will be the
cost of this package - what it is really costing the Agency per year to put on
this program. And I further suspect there will be some subtractions in other areas.
Some of. the people who will be selected will be those who might have gone elsewhere
or done other things. So I don't know how this will be balanced out.
MR. ECHOLS: I think we will just have, as a guesstimate, that the
average grade of the participants will be so much for 60 people. This is a factual
cost on a recurrent program, certainly.
Approved For Release 2002/08/ 80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-01$000300070003-3
25X1A9A
1 -1
to hold this kind of training?
25X1A9A
25X1 A6Ato hold it at
that.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
What are some of your ideas as to where it would be good
Well, I think it would be better for the people concerned
but I don't know how the Deputy Directorates feel about
MR. ECHOLS: Any objection to that? We send people to Harvard for
three months and other schools for longer than that.
25X1A9A
I
thing this should not be a hardship.
25X1A9A
Would that be any problem as far as the speakers you
would want to get? That wouldn't be a problem, would it?
25X1A9A
Yes, because they tie themselves up for one full day for
25X1A9A
I
that would be the speakers -- I do wish you would get outside of the Government,
if you can, into the academic world. This would make it tougher - to get people
25X1 A6A1
25X1A9A
That is being done now.
It's being done on a selective basis.
But as an example, it can be done.
Except if you broaden this thing too wide, or if you
widen this thing, you will find a tremendous number of individuals from other
fields who for this particular purpose -- and we have to judge whether or not it's
worthwhile --
Now this is a security factor -- minor or major, depending upon the individu!]5X1A6A
involved.
I You could split it.
22
Approved For Release 2002/08 WAG&
80-01826R000300070003-3
Yes, and I don't think -- if a guy is picked for this
And I would hope this wouldn't be only our family
 Approved Foclease 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-0182 8 00300070003-3
a" 12 r11 r"Ir
It's something we should consider for the Career Council.
25X1A9A
suggestion that it might be split-- 25X1
And have all the outside speakers here.
And give the individuals, say, the problem to work on
25X1A9A
Have all the outside speakers in this auditorium here at
MR. ECHOLS: That would really put it to use.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
And I think we should conclude it down there.
25X1A9A
I like the idea of splitting it, really -- if it is agreed --
But could we leave that open as to how many weeks here and
down there where you have them under control.
Langley.
take three here and three down there.
Or two here and four there. It seems to me you want
to take a package down there.
how many down there -- I think that would be better, because we have to work that
out.
25X1A9A
25X1A
25X1A9A
I think the timing of this is going to be one of the major
problems -- to make it come out right for everybody. Maybe I'm over-estimating
that.
25X1A9A
You are entirely correct, the timing is going to be difficult
the first time around. Now take for example if you schedule this thing for April
and May or May and June, the first time we are going to have one devil of a time
if we select an individual who is about to come home from overseas. Next year or
the next time around if somebody is over there we will know far enough in advance
Partly at Headquarters and partly at
-- how many at each place is a matter of scheduling.
25X1A6A
23
Approved For Release 2002/01", i'l 1 P80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved Fo Please 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018200300070003-3
so they can very well make arrangements to be here on the lst of April, even if
mama and the children have to stay behind--
25X1A9A
How quickly can this course become operational? Are
25X1A9A
That first year of selection is going to be difficult.
we really thinking we could put it on this spring?
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
are pretty well booked up in advance. If we want to get the right people we would
have to have 90 to 100 days anyhow, just to get them.
Really, the outside speakers we hope to bring to this course
MR. ECHOLS: Now I'm lost a bit -- I thought we were talking about the
fall a few minutes ago.
25X1A9A
1 -1
I suggested the fall and Von said the spring would be
better for him. We never did resolve this. I don't know what the answer is. I
say whenever you have it as far as we are concerned the problem will be getting
the people here at the proper time. The fall would be easier the first year, as far
as we are concerned, but after that we could--
ouppuee we ao (ni5 in tine recommenaati.on -- we suggest that
the first course be run in 1962, and we will try to come up with a date agreeable
to the three Directorates, and selection of personnel who are available--
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
And under certain circumstances we could start about the
middle of August -- that would be much better.
25X1A9A With the idea that after this pilot one you might start
That means you have only got the fall -- that means
That is right -- early fall or late fall.
MR. ECHOLS: Why not say the fall of 1962.
24+
Approved For Release 2002/08'f EefaiP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approved FoT1ftIease 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-018200300070003-3
the second one, on an annual basis, in the spring?
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
Let's have a good first course, even if we don't
get the thing off the ground in a hurry. I'd rather take six months to do it and.
do it well.
MR. ECHOLS: Let me ask you a question: is it advisable at this time
to actually attempt to publish any Regulation on the subject? Why not be absolutely
silent about it?
25X1A9A
Have an announcement rather than a Regulation, and let the
first course dictate what the Regulation--
25X1A9A
As far as I am concerned the only announcement you
need is in the OTR Bulletin, and it's up to us - in a sense we will set the tenor
by the way we go about selecting.
MR. ECHOLS: Later on for public relations purposes we might want to say
something to show we have such a thing.
Well, to conclude this subject, then, if we are at that point,
would it be correct that you (indicating would want to make a few 25X1A9A
minor revisions in this basic proposal, and then perhaps put it in the form of a
25X1A9A
A brief for the Career Council summarizing this discussion.
MR. ECHOLS: And some rough cost estimates, etc., and timing, could be
discussed in the transmittal memo.
25X1A9A
These are the considerations that entered into the
discussion, and then we have recommendations from this Board to the Career Council.
MR. ECHOLS: And I think it will go through like that, myself.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
I
25
Approved For Release 2002/08/28 : CIA-RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
That will be the easiest part of the job.
 Approve,Wor Release 2002/08/28: CIA-RDP80-Q,'826R000300070003-3
25X1A9A
As far as timing is concerned, I think we could prepare
such a brief very shortly after the transcript is made.
MR. ECHOLS: A second little item on the agenda., which I would like to
wind up, we think events have overtaken discussion--
25X1A9A
And our friend
It recognized the problem but didn't establish any solution.
sere in previous conversations in the Personnel Developme2 X1A9A
25X1A9A
I think was sitting in -- and he recognized this as a
problem and I recognized this as a problem, but we put it to one side in an effort
and attempt to get the JOT's schedule approved -- which we did. And then the
statement made by Helms that he recognized that consideration would be given and
efforts would be made -- I have forgotten exactly the terminology -- we haven't any
program, any pattern, and I don't think at the moment this has been vehemently
attacked. I would suggest that inasmuch as this is an addition to what was on
the original agenda, I think that I should go back and check this out with DeB and
the Personnel Office to see just exactly what sort of an effect this will have --
the handling of other officers in the same grade spectrum as we are handling
junior officer training.
MR. ECHOLS: I would think it would be a very simple process -- that is,
when your Panels are meeting to rank your officers by grade for promotion purposes
that you would merely try to identify those that you believe are comparable in
terms of qualifications, potential, and so on, with your JOT's.
25X1A9A
Let's put it this way: there has been a misuse of certain
grades - 9 to 10, for example, and in some cases 10 to 11 - by the Panels in the
past few years which was based upon a desire to reward the lassie, shall we say,
who has been with us for 15 years, and she is a very good reports officer, but the
reports officer slot she has, which is a 9/10, is actually an 11, and so she is
promoted -- and this confuses the whole personnel organizational pattern for pro-
motion purposes. She is not actually comparable to the JOT or the individual who
is moving through this system. This is the thing I'd like to devote some attention
to, because Dan has to put out some instructions to the Panels as to how we handle
26
Approved For Release 2002)91 .AA-RDP80-01826R000300070003-3
 Approves pr Release 2002/08/28: C D $a 04&6R000300070003-3
a situation such as this in the future in order to have this done in a reasonable,
logical fashion.
MR. ECHOLS: I don't quite see your problem -- because when I'm ranking
individuals I don't have much trouble differentiating between a woman or a man,
or, for that matter, a chimpanzee, who is receiving promotion consideration be-
no
cause he has done a fine job for 15 years and has/real potential I have no
trouble differentiating between that person and a bright young male or female who
is comparable in every respect to my JOT's.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
No instruction has gone to the Panel that you use this
as the criteria. They have in the past used this particular mechanism, shall we
say, to reward long years of very good effort.
MR. ECHOLS: No, an instruction to Panels would have to be issued, and
somebody would have to generally monitor the Boards in this respect.
25X1A9A
I say these things have happened in the past. I don't
argue they are wrong, but in the situation of having a group of individuals that
are recognizable, describable JOT's who are supposed to move through at a certain
rate, its only fair that others who are in a similar grade be given consideration
for movement through the different grade levels at the same rate. They may not
make it but we want to make sure this is done in an equal, equitable, logical
fashion. The example that I gave confuses the issue, because out of the number
of promotion slots some of them have been taken up by the cases that I have
described, and JOT'S have not been promoted.
25X1A9A
Which one would you promote?
MR. ECHOIB: I'm going to promote my JOT's and their--
This is the problem - how many spaces you have to
use against your population. I think we are in pretty good shape and have been
for some time in this particular area. I think your [indicating 25X1A9A
problem is much worse.
25X1A9A
We have a larger number of JOT'S coming aboard than most
27
Approved For Release 200 - DP1W .
R? RQQ Q76 3i3
'TG
 Approved FQ,6Release 2002/08/28 I - 8 8018 8000300070003-3
people, and while we are using this particular input as our major source of
young officers it will take careful monitoring to make sure this doesn't become
a problem. Certainly this is part of the problem.
1 :1
situation. When the JOT proposal first came up there was some objection because
this appeared to be singling out for preferential treatment this particular group
when there were other people who ought to get the same kind of consideration.
All right, this says, in effect, if you have in fact others who are to be looked
at that are about as good, give them the same consideration insofar as you are
able to do so.
25X1A9A
The way this thing is worded it is wide open. It
couldn't be more loosely stated to allow anybody to interpret it with the intensity
they feel.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
I'm not arguing the intent or desirability here. I just
28
statistical situation is such that I don't think it would cause us great pain.
Let me recap for a second my understanding of the 25X1A9A
This was very nearly the wording of the Personnel Develop-
You wouldn't have a problem, no.
MR. ECHOLS: It seems to me this is merely a. matter of intent, insofar
as it is feasible to carry it out.
So I was . . . inaudible . . . and also the
That is exactly what it is.
The records of the previous discussion., both in the Council
and in the Personnel Development Board, indicate pretty clearly it was a statement
MR. ECHOLS: But it would be important, it seems to me, that your Panels
down in the DD/P particularly, or your Boards elsewhere, be advised of the desired
intent and instructed to carry it out insofar as possible.
Approved For Release 2002/08/ 80- fii1-
 Approved Focelease 2002/08/28:r CIA QP8R(~,OI8 &8.000300070003-3
don't want to go along with a report to the Career Council that this is being done
until I check back and make sure we are in a position to do it. And my recollection
is that in looking at the personnel progression schedule, or whatever it was, that
was used as a take-off point for CS personnel analysis, that was prepared in 1960,
I believe, we had in terms of JOT's 90 a year moving through this - a career over
20 or 25 years, so there was no problem of being able to handle the JOT's because
the specified rate of promotion in that particular schedule was virtually the same
as we recommended -- but there was also a large asterisk indicating there were
others. Now I would like to go on back and make sure these others are able to go
through it, too, on a 10 or 15 year basis.
MR. ECHOLS: And you will give us a report the next time around?
25X1A9A
O
Yes, your paragraph 3 here is a little ahead of things.
What I did was approve the principles that you put down there -- we are doing it,
but no instructions have gone out, and I was certainly waiting for the Council to
say okay before we actually go ahead.
MR. ECHOLS: Any other business? JNo response.)
. . . . The meeting adjourned at 4:20 p.m. . . . .
Approved For Release 2002/
29 t.z 3
P80-01826R000300070003-3