TRANSCRIPT OF CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD MEETING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000500030002-6
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 29
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 5, 2000
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: November 19, 1952
• Content Type: MIN

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STATI NTL
STATI NTL
TRANSCRIPT OF
CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD MEETING
19 November 1952
Present
Mr. Walter Reid Wolf
Chairman
Lt. General W.B.N. Morris, Jr.
Dr. Jaws /4. Andrews
Mr. Robert Amory, Jr.
Mr. Matthew Baird
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MR. WOLF: Gentlemen, we call this meeting to order, and the first item
on the Agenda is the "Minutes of the 2nd Meeting of the CIA Career Service
Board, held 17 October 1952." I believe these Minutes have been distributed.
If there are no additions or corrections I would suggest that we approve the
Minutes as written.
DR. ANDREWS: Approved.
MR. WOLF: Has anyone any comment? If not they will be considered approved.
The next item is listed as "Minutes of the 2nd Meeting of the Review Committee
of the CIA Career Service Board, held 12 Noveeher 1952" marked "(attadaed);
for information." I as Chairman of that group, as well as this one, regret to
state that up to this minute I have not read said Minutes nor have I read
the transcript, although I attended the last half hour of that meeting. If
the members of this Board have no objection I would prefer to just hold . . .
as a matter of fact, I don't think we need to take any action. They are simply
distributed for information, so I think we can pass that item.
The next item in listed as "Oral reports on the statue of: a. the
Honor Awards Program." Come
in, Bob. You will recall that at a previous
meeting we went over the paper. I think it was at the first meeting. We all
)ie presented STATI NTL
approved the recommendations of the board headed by
the paper to the Director. Subsequent to that Nr. Carey wrote a vary able
report on the longevity problem. At the second meeting of this Board we dis-
cussed it to some extent, and at the request of the Board we withdrew the
original paper. In the withdrawal of that paper I had quite a discussion with
the General who had signed it but prior to my asking to get it back had crossed
his name off, so I am not responsible for his crossing his name off. He had
done that before I asked to withdraw that paper.
Our conversation had primarily to do with whatever medal or medals might
properly be awarded in this service. I will give you an interim report at this
minute. The Director decided that he was only willing to consider requesting
authority by Executive Order for the presentation of one medal for the intel-
ligence services to be called something like the National Security Medal for
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I Distinguished Athievement, said medal to be presented by the President. . .
or not in the Executive Order but . . . or the President could issue regulations
for the presentation. The Director felt, and I think very properly, that no
mention of the DCI or CIA Should be in the Executive Order, Which I understand
blecomes public after its issuance, so the Executive Order has been cleared
with Roger Jones of the Bureau of the Budget. I think maybe I am overstating
lohen I say cleared. It has been discussed with Roger Jones Who raised one or
two technical questions which nobody knew the answer to; to wit, his first
question was: Under What authority can the President issue such an executive
order and authorize such a medal? He stated that in all other cases it was
; legislative authority, until it was pointed out to Mt. Jones, the Oeneral
,Counsel for the Bureau of the Budgets that there was no legislative action of
any kind that could ever be found anywhere covering possibly the Medal for
Freedom -- I have forgotten -- or several others, so I am now told Mt. Jones
recognizes that legislation will not be necessary, and he woad like to dis-
cuss it once more with our General Counsel. Then we will probably have the
Executive Order sent through normal Channels to the White Home for approval.
We are following that through week by week. We are seeing Roger Jones on our
own legislative matters, so it is very easy to keep this thing going, and
last wk Mr. Staats, the Assistant Director of the Budget, and the General
in a conference Which I attended agreed we would have a meeting possibly late
?, next week covering All of our legislative problems and liaison with the White
House, and this will be a part of it.
STATINIL The Board, who under leadership worked out the original paper,
lias been instructed or requested to make a further study in the matter of the
longevity awards. At the present time -- correct me if I am wrong -- he has
no instructions or requests to try to develop anything further in the way of
medals because of the very strong stand the Director took in my conversation
with him that he only wanted one medal for this service.
Bob, you may not know that this medal if awarded can be awarded to
!anyone -- civilian or military -- domestic or foreign -- for distinguished
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achievement in the field of national intelligence.
MR. AMORY: Yos, may I ask a question on that?
MR. WOLF: Yes.
MR. AMaRY: I am bothered by that because, as I understand that -- correct
me, General Morris -- that reminds me of a Distinguished Service Medal or
Legion of Merit. It seems to leave out completely the Distinguished Service
Cross or Silver Star, which might achieve nothing.
Great gallantry . . . a guy parachutes in . . . he may not find the people
he was to look for. It was a damn fine thing and he ought to have something
to wear on his breast pocket for it. It is contemplated that it will be like
the Bronze Star covering the water front, or we just haven't got a gallantry
medal?
MR. WOLF: We just haven't got a gallantry medal, and the Director didn't
want to have a bar across it or something indicating gallantry as against
distinguished achievement. Ne wanted one medal, and from his talk it certainly
is not to be like the Bronze Star. It is to be awarded for the highest possible
achievement in this field.
COLONEL BAIRD: Nothing like the Legion of Merit?
MR. WOLF: Definitely not.
STAT INTL In other words, it would be awarded for gallantry as well
as for achievement?
MR. WOLF: Oh, yes, it could be, but his oen feeling is this will be
about as tight as anything that ever WAS.
MA. ANY: Then I think its name should be modified. It Should be
National Intelligence thing for Conspicuous Gallantry or whatever the achieve-
ment was in the national intenlgence.
MR. WOLF: Well, the citation can be worded the way we want to word it.
Nov the name isn't finalized, but the name suggested by the Committee was the
National Security Medal for Distinguished Achievement or Distinguished Service.
MR. Amu: O.K., I just wanted to get that straightened out in my own
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MR. NtLF: I have nothing further to report on either of those. Reports
have come in on Hazardous Duty and on Promotion Policy. I will come back to
thoae two items if I may.
On the insurance Study, item e., I will report that one phase of that has
been completed; to wit, that part which has to do with hospitalization. The
rest of the Study is still in process of being carried on. have STATINTL
you any other comment on that?
STATINTL
Not on the insurance.
NR. WOLF: That is on the insurance, i will come back on the others.
So I think we can pass that over and report finally on the insurance situation
later, but I wanted everybo4y here to know that at least one phase of it, that
having to do with overall hospitalization, is in the works.
The Personnel Evaluation Program is one that h s taken many hours of
discussion, and we are not prepared to finalize anything yet on that.
STA, INTL Now I think might like to say a word on the other items which
I have passed over so quickly -- Hazardous Duty Board and Promotion Policy.
COLONEL BAIRD: Mr. Chairman, can we get one thing on the Personnel
Evaluations?
W. AOLF: Yee, let's take that now and come back to on the STATINTL
others.
COLONEL BAIRD: I think there should be a uniform policy. We may have
discussed this and I may have missed it, but it comes up again aid again
because there ie one group in my Training Office,
that helps STATINTL
in the training of the people making out the Personnel Evaluation Report. It
Is as to whether the employee is shown the report. Now I don't know that there
is any uniform policy on that. Have you run across it with the offices?
STATINTL Yes, I do. One office has made it mandatory -- it shall
be shown -- except in artremely abnormal circumstances, in whit:ill case justifi-
cation has to be given for not showing it. Another office has made it mandatory
that it Shall not be shown to anybody. Other offices leave it to the decision
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of the supervisor or head of a unit. All offices have found that it must be
consistent within certain limits . . . that the policy must be consistent be-
cause you can't show it to some and not to others.
cauma Baia: What was the Charter on that? I am not clear on that.
What the General signed off, did that say it would be or would not be, or was
it left up to the discretion . . . ?
STATINTL It was left up to the discretion of the office or the
individual.
STATINTL
The fore leaves it permissive, doesn't it, Nett?
STATINTL That is right. The form says, "This has been discussed,"
but the form makes no reference to whether it has been shown or not shown.
COLONEL BAIRD: The query then is as to Whether it should be left just the
way it is.
MR. WOLF: I think it is a very good question because when I filled out
three of said form and it said at the bottom before a signature, "This has
been discussed with the individual concerned," I wouldn't quite know how to
discuss a thing like that with the individual concerned without telling him
what it was, and I am wondering about the offices that decide it is not
exhibited or discussed, or haw do they discuss it? I wouldn't know how.
DR. ANDREWS: In my own shop they discuss it when the supervisor puts
down there that he has discussed this with the employee. He means that the
general weaknesses and deficiencies of the employee have been discussed with
him perhaps at great length and very politely and tactfully, not too tersely,
and as they are put on the sheet. One of our Division STATINTL
preferred to have it that way. All the others preferred to make it mandatory
within their own . . .
STATINTL
But one preferred to do it the other way?
EH. ANDREA'S: And it is very interesting to see the difference in the
evaluations that come out because those in are a great
deal more exact and they tell you a hell of a lot more about the people
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STATINTL
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? concerned. So it seems to me there is aomething to be said for both. I
I would like to continue within our Shop for a little While longer this way and
I see if something comes out of it because I know my own Career Service Board
has taken account of the fact that they are operating different ways in the
different divisions and is latching to see :Cat happens.
COLONEL BAIRD: Maybe that is the solution . . . to let it ride for this
first go around and see from experience whether it is better to make it man-
datory or permissive.
MR. WOLF: I would like to get any consents that you might have, Dick,
or Eric, or Bob, on that, General MOrris, whether or not anyone has any other
memento they would like to make.
GENERAL MORRIS: I have had quite a good deal to do with them. In the
Army we don't have to shows man unless it is unsatisfactory, and my experience
has been not to show them. It destroys morale, and when you Show a man his
report, he always figures, "Why don't I get higher." That has been my ex-
perience; therefore, I have never shown a report to anyone unless I marked
him unsatisfactory, as required by regulations. In a great many cases T don't
desire to see the report . . . I mean where a man is marking me. I have found
out when you go up to look at them, one of your best friends you found said
some little thing abcut you there, and it makes you as sore as the dickens
about it and "Why did he sey that about me," although he gave you an excellent
or something like that. And I think it is a great morale destroyer. That
has been my idea about it. I was going to say on the thing, let it be the
way it is, and those that want to show all right and those that don't all right.
We have lots of offices that show them, and they have to keep marking everybody
high all the time. It has gotten to, as I say, in the Army that when you got
superior, which is the highest point, you had to break it down 1, 2, 3, 11, 5,
6, 7. I mean where 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3, and that kind of a man . . . everybody
wan superior, and that is what happens, and you get down to super-superior.
MR. WOLF: That is very interesting. Dick have you any thought on that?
STAT(NTL This was much discussed in the meetings of the Career Service
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Committee when the form was being worked on. mr own personal view is that
agree with General Morris . that I think it should be left up to the
Isupervisor whether or not he is going to discuss it with the individual. I can
!see cases when, it is desirable to do it where you point out a minor weakness,
or even a major weakness if necessary, whereas the man otherwise is good, but
I also feel that it is a morale destroyer, particularly when it gets down to
this caviling over *lather it is just a little bit better than this, and
really I didn't do that that you think I did, etc., with the result that you
set up a sort of state of mind on the part of a certain type of employee that
just isn't desirable to have, I feel. So I would like to see it left as
optional.
Mk. WOLF: Eric, do you feel that way or . . .
STATINTL 111111111 Well, with the very strong stipulation that anything that is
unsatisfactory should be shown because we have had problems in the past where
someone will be reported to us orally as a submarginal enployee, and we, will
find that he had a highly satisfactory efficiency rejort the last time it was
sent in, and that is very embarrassing.
1
/
MR. WOW: Nell, T can confirm the osbarrassment on that *art of thing.
agree with you entirely. Bob, have you any comments on that?
MR. AMDP32 No, it does no good to just show only when unsatisfactory
because you dam all the people you don't want to by a mere satisfactory. That
was the kiss of death, as you well know, in many Regular Reserve offices. I
k think it can be left experimental, but I eventually guess we will get away
from showing it to them.
R. 1AOLF: Well, then, I think it is the sense of this Board that we carry
on as we are. As you all know, one of the reasons why the total program was
made as flexible as it was was to give us an opportunity to develop through
experience, and I think probably this is the wrong time to make any change.
If that is satisfactory, we will . . .
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STATI
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do you want to speak on these other things?
On longevity I would like to.
MR. WOLF: If that report hasn't been distributed on longevity, I mould
think it might be well and not take the time of this Committee unleas you have
a report that can be distributed to the Board.
STATIIITL It can be distributed, and I can brief the recommendations
in a couple of minutes.
MR. WOLF' Well, / don't like to take unnecessary time of this Board
twiless me have had an opportunity to analyze something and then come to this
Heard for decision. I might say that this meeting is not the kind of a meeting
that I look forward to because we have not analyzed a number of these things
as thoroughly as we leant to and are not prepared to come to this Board with
a clear-cut recommendation far a decision, which I think this Board is entitled
to, from the people who are most concerned, to wit, the Aasistant Director
for Personnel, the Director for Trebling, and to a degree myself. I think
we ?wilt to be able to present something specific and definite for a resolution
at a meeting of this kind rather than to take up eomething that we haven't
i had a chance to study. I don't know ether you all agree with that or not,
but that is the premise on which we originally planned to have our Review
Committee look these things over a week or two in advance, and in that we
haven't had a chance to look that over, I think if you don't mind I would just
as moon hold it up.
STATINTL May I as one question in connection with that? In the Minutes
we aey these letters are going to be prepared for the Director's signature.
1 Has that been done? that is the status of that?
STATIN1L The list of 120 people is ready. There is a draft of a
letter for the Director's signature. There is a list of approximate4 120
people on whom such letters can go. That list is not based on predecessors
of CIA, namely, OM, SSD, CO/, etc., but it is based on contribution to the
national intelligence effort which was agreed at the last meeting. The starting
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date for the Longevity Program is recommended as 27 September 10, which is
the effective activation date of GIP and there is a recommendation that
additional to these 120 persons the additions to the list be made by the
respective Assistant Directors because the records do not exist anyWhere
short of a survey with each individual as to whether he wee or was not involved
in the national intelligence effort. The record doeenit exist anymhere; there-
fore, additions to this list can only be made by the individual Assistant
Directors who want lettere from the Director to go to that person. That in
brief is the recommendation, and it is also the answer to your question.
Yes.
I have copies of that report for everybody.
MR. W42: Is it satisfactory with this Board to have copies distributed,
and then if any of us feel it essential to take action before the next meeting
of the Board we can take it up on a round robin basis?
COLONEL hAIRD: me. Chairman, I hope that will be possible. I couldn't
agree more with what you said, but I also think we should be aware of the
fact we haven't accomplished too much, and if there is some one thing that we
can settle in two or three minutes and say, "Here is one thine that the Career.
Service Board hu dons," / would like to do it.
I. WOLF: I would like to very such. I want to try to avoid making the
mistake vs made the first tine of having something . . . agreeing on it . . .
and than finding that we had an able report from another office which was not
involved, and as a result of that went back to the Director, withdrew our
request, and then went to work on it all over again. I would like to be sure
of our coordination before we :send anything like thia to the Director. Is
there any other comment you warted to maks, STATINTL
STATINTL Mo, sir.
MR. WOLF: I have passed over, as you noticed, thia Hazardous Duty Board
and Promotion Policy for the very simple reason that I am personallI not pre-
pared to discuss them, and I don't want to waste unnecessary time.
STATINTL
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GENERAL MORILIS* Well, it is very sheet. On the Promotion Policy we got
a letter yesterday telling us to make contact with the Deputy Directors, and
the Director of Training, and also the Assistant Director for Communications
and get their views and then submit a plan, and that is what we are going to
do. We just got that letter yesterday, and we will send it out and have a
eonference on that. That is the status now.
MR. WOLY: In ePect after you get the complete and full coordination
we felt when we discussed it was necessary before bringing it to the hoard.
,STAT1NTL The Nasardous Duty Board has met and is carrying out the
instructions. That is All there is to say on that.
MR. WOLF* Very good. The next item is the "Staff Study from Professional
Selection Panel to Chairman, Career Service Board, dated 17 November 1952, to
determine the :4:sope of the Panel' e responsibilities, (attached); for cone
sideration." That was the substance of the long eview meeting Which was
held on the 12th of November. I got in on that just at the end,I regret to
say, and since which time have not concentrated on it, but it seemed to me
that the controversial phases had to do with the Selection Panel being privileged
to look at medical records or be briefed on medical records and security in-
formation. lett, you are more up-to-date on this than I am, but so correct
me if I am wrong. It seemed to me that was the most controversial point.
I think I explained to the Review Group and the Board that an of the present
time nobody is privileged to see certain records which us have in the Security
Office, nor is anybody privileged to see certain records which we have in the
Medical Office without a direct order from the Director of Central Intelligence
to either Shaft Bdwards ar Tietjen. That is our present situation. I
would have to think a long time before I would be willing to ask the Director
to change that; however, I do point out to you in so far as Fecurity is con-
cerned that when a Loyalty Board or an Employment Review hoard is called and
is In operation, said Board is given . . . I welt say complete but .
believe practically complete and full security information, and that is under
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the orders of the Director, but that whole subject eoused so euch controvceey
and discussion that the problem has not been resoleee. The Junior Board was
requested to continue its consideration of its paper and bring it Lack for
further review. That is the best of my recollection. Lould anybody elee who
was there cam to comment on that? Were you at that meeting?
COLONEL BAIRD: No.
N. WCLF: You were not, I remember. You were, General, and you were,
ImmE
GENERAL ellakehe: My feeling about this particular thing is the situation
iE so darned strict now about people comine to the Agency. If the Security
doesn't want this man to come In or he can't Less the Medical examination, T
would eay the Assistant Director won't permit a Board to look at whet they
have in their records. I would say he is just screened out right there 3n0
would not go before the Panel, I mean. Now there are also some eersonnel
thins here that personally I think we should screen out and not t.o Lefore
a
i this Panel, this in addition to those two thins. WhenI knoe n has a lied
;1. from the Army . an officer who has been Class B over here and aohody else
knows it, and I know he has been Cless B over there . . . the Army kicked him
1 out . . . what do we want to take him in far? There is no use letting hien
go
i before this Panel to see if we are going to take him in. Also we heve some
lines around here from different personnel offices of the other government
aeencies? and somebody applies here, and we find out what he has been doing over
iin that place, and some have very bad records, and my ides ie to just screen
.those people out and not let them eo before the Panel at all. That is Personnel's
part. The other two -- the Security and Medical -- I don'b see how you are
eoine to eet around that at all. I say just let them go.
AMOR1: I think your staterlent certainly not my concept of the
feroblem on erhet rey delegate as supposed to nreue about. It isn't a auostion
iof the right to look at Security information or to look at the chest X-rays,
7
tor somethin like that. It is merely a right to lTe inford on Argiaal
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!cases in general terms of the criterional grounds on Which a rejection was
made with the idea of having a second look at this problem, with the poem.
sibility that a recommendation might then go to the Director to weigh. Now
let we illustrate the statement by two cases. One in a paraplegic. /t just
so happens when / went out to the West Coast I offered to hire this fellow.
1 vas personally stopped . told not to hire this kid who is an able rail-
road transportation technician just graduated at the top of his class from
t UCLA. It so happens as a paraplegic he also had two machine gun bullets in
the spine. Now obviously he isn't going to pass the medical exam by a damn
sight. He is to be in a Wheel chair for the rent of his life. I claim it is
to the interest of the U. S. Government and CIA that that guy be hired. He
would make a wonderful career researcher and is good for ya or 35 years. Now
t if Dr. Tietjem can't make an exception I say there has got to be a safety
1 valve somewhere Where that fact can be brought out by the AD's and some appeal
not that that Board would have a right to overrule but to state in memorandum
form so it would go through you or otherwise to the Director.
MR. WOLF, There is a procedure at the present time in each case. The
Directs** is the only one at the present time who can overrule the opinion of
the Medical Officer and employ or send on foreign duty. When, as, and it a
case of that kind comes up, in the pest the case has normally -- where there
has been a difference of opinion -- been referred to my office. I have gotten
ahold of Dr. Tietjen and the officer interested, as Ithink you will recall,
Dick. I have either given my own opinion in relation to the whole, or in one
,case that I know of took the matter directly to the Director, and a conference
'seasi held with the Director and Dr. Tietjen, and later a second conference with
ithe individual concerned, Dr. notion, and myself, and the Director overruled
An that case. There is a method of handling it, although I have been maybe a
ttle difficult in saying, *We will take this to the Director' because in my
;judgment it hasn't been important enough.
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New in a Security case that matter was up again this morning, and we
have Enployment Review Boards. The Deputy Director is the senior man to
appoint an Itaployment Review Board at agy time, just as a Loyalty case. In
his absence it falls in gy lap. Whenever an individual has requested somebody
and Shen' has turned him down, the Deputy DO/ can immediately call an Employ-
ment Review Board and have that Board make a recommendation to the Director
as to whether or not he will sign a waiver. That is the normal procedure.
The Director's statement this morning was that his inclination would always
be to back his Security Officer, but that procedure was satisfactory and
carry on with it at the present time.
STAtINTL What would be wrong with making the Professional Selection
Panel the Employment Review Board in these oases?
MR. WOLF: Nothing.
MR. AmaRr: Except technically I think you have to amend your regulations.
MR. WOLF: You might have to &mead the regulations. You might have to
change the form . . I don't know . . but it could be merged.
STATJNTL A new man coming in doesn't require the level of considera-
tion that a man does already in the Agency where it is a question of his job
at stake and his reputation.
MR. WOLI It depends a bit on the individual they have asked to have
cleared, and this case that came up . . there were two or three mentioned
this morning . . . one was one of the most prominent individuals in the country,
and I think it would seem a little disadvantage not to have a very senior review
board make its recommendation to the Director, and I think if he was going to
consider a Board he would want it.
STATI NTL
Walter, if this is the cane I think it is, that is going to
go to the Director anyway. A man of the experience, age, and stature of this
,particular individual wouldn't OITWA come within the province of a Selection
Panel, would he?
MR. WOLF: Correct me if I an wrong, Bob, but it was expressed this morning
there would be an Deploraerrt Review Board called to consider the matter with the
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Security Officer and then recommend to the Director.
Mk. AMORY: Yes on that one; yes, on that one. I don't think you are
alkine about the same person.
GOLONEL BAIRD: Walter, normally the procedure of an Emaloyment Review
Board is not to survey the qualifications of incoming employees.
Mk. WOLF: Normally it is not, but it can be used prior to going to the
Director and requesting a waiver, utich is in effect takine the man in without
a full security investigation.
MR. AMORY: Just a minute; let me get this straight . . . without or
despite?
MR. WOLF: Without or despite . . . either one . . . but the normal waiver.
Certainly this has teen my experience. The Director has signed a waiver on
individuals.
MR. ANCEY: Sure,
MR. WULF: On some individual's say-so. I mean I have said to him, "I
know this fellow is right," and he has aimed the waiver. I hope I was :lett,
tut I mean I don't think the ra1ver has ieen used very much.
MR. AMO}: If we accept this, what possible use does this Selection
Panel serve then? I Dean the only other concept would be for a fellow who
1 passes all three of these thin es . . . then we set up Another thing. It is
like a hot oven back in school days . . . one more crack with the paddle.
GEWEAL MMUS: Whsn this thing des set up by the Directors he afproved
erades 7 to 11, junior grade people that have passed everathire elae. They
Ithen make a final passing on this man into the Acenoy. It is ased on what
t
1 they have in the State Department, etc., of a panel . . . of new people couing
/
in. Now that one point you brought up there about a parapleeic, etc. ';e
lhad a man the other day. The Doctor comes in and tells us he is all rieht to
i
,
ibe hired departmentally but rot to go overseas, tut you can't have too many
of those people because everybody in this Agency out,ht to be qualified to
Igo overseas. You probably want to rotate after while oale goini overscae,
I
i and you cLnit have n CIA filleo up with a lot of peoalc 'hat c n't 0).
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MR. AMORY: I don't think I would buy that. I agree that maybe 80%,
but a very substantial minority. . .
GENERAL MORRIS: I don't mean a few, but a lot you don't want.
COLONEL BAIRD: Ti have well in the hundreds of people in the DD/I
complex . . of people that don't.
MR. AMOR!: Tee, translator and people like that.
COLONEL LADD: I would like to epee. briefly on this. I have sat as
an advisory member, I think, on every meeting of the Selection Panel, and I
would like to cammend them on the zeal with ehich they have attacked their
problem, and they in my humble opinion can serve the Agency to good purpose
by badkimg up the Assistant Director of Personnel, backing up the Security
Officer, backing up the Medical Officer, tacking up the DD/A by withdrawing
from one individual that aspect of infallibility which one individual shows
if he turns down a man or accepts a man.
The spirit with uhich the Panel was created . . . it seems to me that
if five people were chosen and they were chosen by the three Deputies to
represent areas of experience in the Agency . . . all areas of exper'ence in
the Agency are represented by those five people . . . remembering I an not a
voting member at all and just it as an advisory member . . . they are nature
people; they are people of integrity . . . and if I were a Peraonnel Director,
or the Assiatant Director for Personnel, or the Security Officer, I would wel-
come such a Panel advising on controversial eases in the Aeency. Now advising
ia all they can do. They can't make a decision, but it seems to me that we
have precedence throughout the nation for selection not being left in the handa
1 of one individual. It is true in the Army; it is true in the Navy, Air Force;
At is true in the State Department; it is trio in every uni ereity which
selects for scholarahips. We use it in our own Agency, and I say that to me
they can serve a very useful purpose. Now whether they should be given the
authority to pass upon Security and Medical turndowns is something, it seems
me, for this Board to decide. I would hate to see the Panel washed out.
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STA
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They are in the Career Service Program, and to me they can do a very useful .
they can contribute to the Agency . . bat I think if you just make the de-
termination as to whether they should or should not concern themselves with
Security and Medical turndowns they can go ahead and do a good job.
DIL. ANDREWS: I feel the WOO way, Walter. The Implement Review Board
might very well serve for very senior individuals, but, as you say, it has been
very rarely if ever they have taken any action on someone who wasn't already
on duty here. I am concerned about the people grades as-9, GS-11, as-13, and
I have sat in on an awful lot of Loyalty Review Board cases, and about 50%
of them I would say were sheer nonsense -- somebody had bought a book from the
Washington Bookshop or something. low I have to assume that if that had been
known before the person came on duty here he wouldn't have gotten in. You mgy
want to hire somebody GS-'I - OS-11 because of his linguistic knowledge, his
specialty in one way or another, and to have him wanted out perhaps because as
a part of his studying of Slavic languages he knew somebody who was a member
of the Washington Bookshop . . . and it can happen that wey . . . I knows
therefore, I would feel a lot happier if it were possible far a Board of this
sort to nit on it. And I don't see from the Medical standpoint or Security,
if these people took only those eases that are brou t to their attention . .
I don't mean they are to consider every reject . . . but only when the AD or
man who recruited him says, "Wait, that person may be only a 7, but he is
important for other reasons; therefore, we would like an independent body to
look at it. It seems to ma that would be a vary useful safeguard to all of
us.
I think I have been told that those cases that come up to the Loyalty
Review Board are things brought to their attention after they are in.
MR. WOLF: I don't think that is entirely tree.
INTL Colonel Edwards has no discretionary authority. That is by
legislation,
STATANTL
This is the Civil Service and the --
-- fact they bring membere of the Washington Bookshop before
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the Loyalty Review Board is not his discretion.
I think what is in your mind is Sheff eleht very preeca-ly say
in his investigation . . . assuming that this individual is R memier of vow,
organization on the Attorney '4.,nera1le List . . . "If he is employed this eill
result in a Loyalty case."
DV. AilDitE.TS: So we don't emeloy him.
MA. 1OLI: I think there have been Aany CAECS ohere the inuieidual hes
been employed with full knowlodle that it would r.sult in a Loyalty case*
There have been many cases, no doubt, where the decision has bei made not to
employ him because why have more Loyalty cases. I am sure that has been tree
on both sides. My own feelinE is that this reeuir s a little more thoutht
and a little more study, and as much es I would like to accomplish something,
I would personally prefer to hold this one off until the next meetine for
final decision. I believe we can resolve the proLlems we are faced with.
COLONEL BAIRD: Before we leave it, -elter, eay I see if 1,c can wain et
going and see if this won't satisfy everybody for the moment? This is n !ro-
posal that I sue,: est you send to the Chairmen of the Selection Panel.
"1. For the tiee beine the CIA Caxeer Service Poard does not wish the
PIofessional Selection Panel to , ive considerrtion to individeal eases of
applicants who have Leen flatly disqualified for eeployment from eny one of
the three offices -- Security, Medical, or Personnel." -- for the tiee beine
becLuse ee can't decide otherwise yet, as you say.
2. The Board recoenizes that the ianel cannot ieplement at this time
all phases of the Selection program specified in CD, Notice
It does, however, desire that the Panel should eive eriority to -- and just
three thin rs -- "the formulation of criteria concernine overall suitability
to work in CIA on a career basis." We would like to have that; we all want
L at. "b* Fxamination of individual otIsc)s of applicants or trial service
employees without respect to grade where doubt is cast on the suitebility to
work in CIA on a carecr basis as e result of development of administrative or
iarg1n1 inforeation by the three offices mentioned above -- Medicel, Security,
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and Personnel -- and the Office of Training." That ia to take in the trial
period of employees before that is up -- the 12 months are up -- so that a
training evaluation -- if they have taken training -- can be considered.
And "c. Recommendation to the appropriate authority for the disposition
of each ease so examined." Back to the AD, or back to Security, back to
Personnel.
Lastly, "the Board desires the Panel to report to the Board at its next
meeting progress made in carrying out the above objects." That puts them back
in business, and I don't think at this moment . . ?
MR. WOLF: I would subscribe to that.
GENERAL NORM' I have one thing on that thing, Mr. Wolf. What the
Director authorized was up to grade 11 inclusive. It didn't have all grades.
COLONEL BARD: I know it didn't, General, but I merely say that to . .
GENERAL MORRIS: Well, here is the point I want to make. When you come
to the Secretary of State and he has this Panel, it is only for those new
people going to the Foreign Service. Now somebody is being appointed in the
State Department in a high position. There is no Board sees him. He appoints
him.
STA INTL Well, the Manpower people came in as high as 750-1, and they
went before a board.
MR. WOLF: That is right . Foreign Service went before a Board . . .
those coming in from the Minpower Act . . . right up to the very top.
GENERAL MORRIS: But that thing was approved that things be taken up
only authorized to grade U.
MR. urcut? I think this Board makes recommendations, and in the light of
that Dr. Andrews has said, if I remember correctly, you were very much inter-
ested in people coming in grade 11, 13, etc.
DR. ANDREWS: My primary concern on this controversy is the people in the
lower grades, Walter.
MR. WOLF: Yes, but there are some on the other hand, and, Bob, I think
your concern . . .
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MR. AMORY: You don't hire a Ph.D. fellow less than a 12, 13, or 14.
BR. WOLF: Therefore, I would recemmend we go along with that and recom-
mend that we amend that provision and make it right up through grade 15.
COLONEL BAIRD: Well, if you let them start with this they can go to
work.
STATI TL
STATI NTL
MR. WOLF: That is right. How do the rest of you feel on that?
I will go along with Matt's proposal.
DR. ANDiiEWS: So will I.
MR. AMORY: Then what do we do a month hence?
Get a report of experience from the Panel as to what it
has found out after it has been in operation.
MR. AMOR!: What they are being assigned to do is not pertinent to the
q problem that we are now postponing.
MR. WOLF: Well, we can carry on with our normal procedures and come to
- this Board with a recommendation as to whether or not the present procedure
be adjusted and the present regulation be changed by recommendation to the
!General after further study.
3
a CCLOMEL BAIRD: May I speak to Bob's question?
MR. WOLF: Yes.
COLONEL BAIRD: / would think if the Panel were in operation, in 60 to
1 90 days hence they report back to the Career Service Board on the procedural
progress. If they come up and say, "We don't feel we can discharge the
4
function that the Career Service Board has set up for us on the one-way valve,"
1 I think you will have an experience factor to give weight to their considers-
tions. But now there is an underlying thing that shouldn't be in the record.
STATINT is the advisory member for Security. Dr. Tietjen is the advisory
member for the Medical Office. I think they will give the Board all that the
Board wants . . . / mean the Panel. I honestly do. They will not disclose
1 sources. They will retain the security that is necessary but can still Jve
Ithe Panel enough for the Panel to come up with a recommendation which should
Icarry weight. Now if in the course of experience it becomes apparent that
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the Panel is not being given learmation, that decisions are being made where
in the minds of the Panel information is ,eine withheld that ie pertinent to
a decision, I think they will come Lack to the Career Service Board and says
"Tou can't 'Unction on this basis."
MR. AMaRT: Does your Charter there direct them to pay any attention to
people who don't get through? You mifht read the pertinent part to me there.
COLONEL BAIRD: "For the time being the CIA career Service Board does
not wish the Professional Selection Panel to give consideration to individuil
' cases of applicanta who have been flatly disqualified for employment by any
one of the three officee -- Security, Medical, or Personnel."
This is just what I think personally . . . having worked with these
people in the meetings . . we have worked I guese 15 hours on this subject .
that the Security Office, and the Medical Office, and the Personnel Office are
going to give the Panel all that they really need.
MR. AMORY: Well, in other words, the key words there are "flatly dis-
qualified." Now here is the hiring thing down here. Down here you are flatki
disqualified and borderline cases they have wrestled around with in their
offices. They will toss out, for instance, formal discuseion with the Board.
That is a negative wgy to get around it.
COLONEL BAIRD: Well, Bob, I know it is difficult. That is why I wanted
it kept off the record, if possible, but if we can give the benefit of the doubt
that the people that are going to be on this Panel are people of good will, as
well as the other dvaracteristics I spoke of, I think they will bring border-
line eases that otherwise they would have flatly turned down. I think we will
get some of these rejection cases on which there is any shadow of doubt, and
the Security Office will says "Here is a case incidentally that we would
normally turn downs but we would like to have you people kick it around and
see if you people own back us up or not."
W. WOLF: Isn't it reasonable to assume that when the office concerned
has been notified that there has been a turndown and there is a strong_ feeling
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41
on the part of the head of that office, he can reoueet . . . ?
COLONEL LAIRD: Walter, I think that is again the way it will work, that
the AD will request that the case be referred to the Selection Panel, and I
doubt that Securityi Personnel, or the Medics would refuse to accede to that
request and say, No, you don't take it to the Selection Panel; take it to the
Director."
I. WOLF: Well, the normal procedure, as I say, is that any AD or any
1 office head in privileged at any time if there is a refusal from Personnel,
1 from Medical, or from Security to bring the matter to the Directors and in the
majority of cases they are brought to me through Rf office to the Director
so that . . .
COLONEL BAIRD: I would think in 99 cases out of 100 if they referred
g it to the Panel -- and the Panel is composed of the men I hope it is compoeed
of -- the cases will not get to the Director. They will be satisfied with
the result . . the recommendation . . of the Panel, but that is . . .
1 I don't think we will know until we have had some experience in this thing and
we probably come up with a more intelligent reaction.
MR. WOLF: Is there any objection to carrying on this way for the
nect . . . ?
GENERAL MORRIS: I have the objection about goint, above grade 11 because
the Director only approved that for the Career Service Board to take ups and
4 I think a mountain is being made out of a table hill on the thing. The average
A
' has only been about one per month. Whenever it has been brought up, the
Assistant Director he would say, "All right, the man is out." There is only
an average of abott one per month.
MR. AMOR!: A great many though, General Morrie, I don't think every reached
1 you or Walter. I mean they are turned down, and then I have to spend a morning
t over in "L" Building with Sheff or something, and I just don't think it is a
very efficient way for us to get our key people. I mean what happens is that
,there is development of standards of exceptions.
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GENERAL MORRIS: Here is one thing about it I think we all forget. This
is a CIA, and on security if there is any question about a man's security at
all, I say "Don't hire him", It is not a question of giving him a square deal
necessarily.
MR. AMORY': I never am talking about that. I am taIkinE about giving
the Government a square deal. Where you have the only gay -- for instance,
here is a case where Sheff after four hours of argument has gone along with
U8. He will be the only guy in CIA when he comes aboard, which I assume he
will now, which has ever personally been negotiated with . It seems to
me he is quite a positive asset, and CIA is the loser -- not the gainer -- by
swing, "Oh, he played craps in
with a couple of guys we STATINTL
don't like very much," but hie aesets are so great. It is a question of
striking a balance in each of those cases, and God knows the people that Dick
has to hire . I don't know how in the hell you do it.
STATINTL DR. ANDREWS: That i8 a point; I hadn't thought of that.
MR. WOLF: That is a subject we don't need to go into here -- and I
might add both Eric and Dick -- because we are involved in that up to our
necka anyway.
I think we are getting a little bit alay from the policies that were
discussed again as recently aa this morning by the Director and by Allen when
it was clearly stated that in the event of such a question a Personnel Review
Board could properly be appointed to maks any recommendation it cared to make
to the Director. Tou were there, Dick. /Ott were, Bob.
MR. AMORY: Tee.
MR. WOLF: The Director stated, "My inclination will be to follow the
Security Officer, but go ahead and have the Personnel Board present its recom-
mendations." So I think the Director has at the present at least resolved the
question of policy that he is willing ta have somebody take a second look on
that.
On the question of grade up to 11, all this Board is privileged to
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do is to recommend to the Director that it be up through 15. Now if it is the
sense of the group that it is not necessary to do that, that is one thing. If
the general opinion is that if we are going to do it, we better do it right
through 15, I would like to know Whether we would like to take that action,
and so recommend to the Director, and have this Board cover everything. Per-
sonally I don't see much sense is leaving out the few remaining grades.
GENERAL MEM: It isn't except this thing started -- this idea -- the
fellows were going over to Matt's school -- young fellow' that were coming in
for a career, and I mean that is the way it was written, and that thing was
approved by the Director.
MR. WW1 Voss but that was a recommendation that we made to the
Director.
GENERAL MORRIS* Yes, up to grade 11 the recommendation.
COLONEL BAIRD: Elevens don't come into the school,
STA INTL Recommend to grade 11 is correct, but it wasn't for the
purpose of Matt 's . .
GENL MMUS: I may have read that into it, but I understood that was
the case.
MR. WOLF: Well, unless there is a serious objection to increasing it
by the few grades, is it the opinion of this Board that it mould be wise to
recommend that it be all inclusive up through a grade 15? That seams to
be ? ? ?
STATI TL I doubt if we will find too many people up to grade 11's that
1 the Agency can't get along without. I mean if they are unique they will
probably be above 111s. We will have to raise it to 15's or above if there
is any . . .
MR. WOLF: We have a special board on super-grades, so I don't think we
need get Into the super-grade question at all.
STATI TL I certainky recommend that it be made up to 15's then.
MR. WOLF: Are you willing to go along with that recommendation, General,
f or would you rather not?
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GENERAL MORRIS, I dissent on it, and, of course, that was on that par-
ticPlar thing that wasn't authorized for us to take up. That is the only
reason on that. And then I want to also point out that it means that the
people Who are 121s, 13tes fl4t8, 151e, after they have been cleared by the
Personnel those people have to go before this Board. This is what happens.
COLONEL BAIRD: No, only controversial cases.
GENERAL MORRIS: Oho the Board takes pp all these other things that
aren't controversial.
COLONEL BAIRD: Nos sir, the Board is not going to.
GENERAL MORRIS: But pp to 7 to 11 they take them up to approve them.
COLONEL BAIRD: They can't do that. That is why I have written in here
that "the Board recognizes that the Panel cannot implement at this time all
phases of the Selection Program epecified in CIA Notice What they
were asked to do they can't do now. They are trying to do what they think
they can dos which is a service to the Agency. If the Career Service Board
aye, "Well, looks we want you to do the things; we want you to have testing
in the field and interview" -- interview is what this said -- "each 11
down" . .
STA INTL That is why it was limited to the 11 because of the inter-
view, and the interview is impractical and can't be done, and that is one of
the things which the Board cannot ipplement at this time.
MR. WOLF: I am basing my suggestion here on the report written by
Colonel Baird Which changes the original overall implementation of the job and
reduced it to a size which looks practical at this time, and I agree with Eric
STATI TL
that if we are going to do it at all this way, we ought to be all inclusive.
I don't see that it would be as effective without the higher grades, and it is
only in those cases that are referred to in this memorandum.
COLONEL BAIRD: There is no point in their going into every case that
is an obvious and Shut case.
GENERAL MORRIS: Everybody feels the ones that are approved will go
before the Panel, but you have never acted on any of them yet.
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COLONEL BLED: Don't look at me. I an not. .
GENERAL MORRIS: Well, that is the case on the thing.
COLOAEL BAIRD: They are doing what . . . As I nay, the Panel is made
up a damn good people in my estimation. They are doing what they think they
can do to make a contribution to the Agency. I just happen to agree with then
as an advisory member of the Panel. They have gotten to the point that they
need some guidance now. I recommend this as a form of guidance -- certainly
; interim-- until experience has shown what we really do want them to do.
STAT NTL Watt, if they stayed in session eight hours a day six dgya a
week, how many cases *mild they go into thoroughly -- about three a day?
=OREL BAIRD: That is the point. Historically, Walters the Working
Group that I wasn't a member of, but having sat with
STATIVT
1
and Dick, they envisaged that ultimately the Career Service would
mean bringing in young people. Well, we haven't gotten to that point yet.
We are still hiring laterally, and until suCh time as the ceiling forces us
to bring in 99% of our people come in as young people -- in the Agency
and are pushed up, they can't implement this. I think they can inclement
what they were expected to do at some later date, or beef them up and make the
Selection Panel a permanent panel that does nothing but sit.
MR. WOLF: I think that we might decide whether we are going to present
this recommendation or not as the ease may be. It seems to be that the
majority of this Board is in favor of carrying out Colonel Baird's recommenda-
tion., and with General Norris holding on his point.
GINERALMURRIS: / will hold on my point; it is only to a grade U.
MR. WOLF: I think we want to record, and then we will so present it that
Mayo
GENERAL NORRIS* 14e, air.
NR. WOLF: I think because our time is pretty well up there is no use
in going into a general discussion of the problems of the Career Service
program. We have plenty.
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STATI NTL
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We have have enough unresolved right here.
1?. WOLF: And then there is an item called "New business," and I will
ask if anybody would like to bring up anything right now that is important to
bring to this Board?
COLONEL BAIRD: Welter, I want some guidance going back to the same Career
Service proposal. Well, anyhow, with regard to training trainees so and so,
and so and so, all new personnel recruited to fill positions in the Agency be
required to go through a training program in order to 14ve them an adequate
basic intelligence baCkground. Exceptions may be made for individuals who
have had previous high level intelligence experience. I have a draft of a
regulation which would cover that plus the curriculum for the basic course
which is not presently given; in other words, we already have the basic
courses for the clandestine offices. If eoesible? I would like to give these
to the members of the Board. The curriculum for the course has already been
coordinated with all offices of the Dp/I. They have incorporated their
suggestions. It has been given to Red White. If possible, however, I would
like to get some authority. Specifically, I would like to ask the Board if
they would let me work out the details for implementation with the DP/A
inasmuch as it is a training and a personnel function really -- to get it
implemented rather than to wait for another meeting.
MR. WOLF: I would be vary glad. to put that up to the Board as Chairman
of this Committee, and if the Board so decides I would be very glad to carry
it out. Is there arty comment? If not . .
COLONEL BAIRD: I will give it to you anyhow to read, assuming that you
will comeback to me with my sugLestions on the draft.
MR. WOLF: As I understand it, Matt, your suggestion is that this Board
authorize you to implement this through my office, work it out with me, and
my only other question, this is a proposed regulation?
COLONEL BAIRD: This implements that I consider was my mandate to go
ahead and set up a basic training course for all employees.
......egis.01110."1""imMINI01101111.11..""'
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I. WOLF: There is a paper called ?Basic intelligence Course,* and then
an top of that there is a paper called, "Regulation."
COLONEL BAIRD: Well, the "Basic intelligence Course" is the new course.
MR. WOLF: Now did 'I understand that has been coordinated?
COLONEL BAIRD: That has been coordimAed with the Dp/I because the DD/P
people would not take that course. They would take the bailie ooursee which
are already offered with continuing modification by the Office of Training.
MR. WOLF: Right.
MR. AMUR': I would like to make one comment. As I underetood . ? ?
240 hours is 6 weeks, isn't it?
COLONEL BADD Right.
MR. AMORY: I don't know mhere in this paper there is any evidence of
it -- and I doubt if there is -- but I remember ay interest in this was the
part based on the fact that this clearance through Secret would take place
prior to clearance through Top Seerst so that the six weeks would not be all
lost time. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense ? ? . but delayed time in
getting the guy to his desk.
COLONEL BAIRD: That is in here, Bob.
MR. AMORY: Well, it just says cleared through Secret, but I think the
DO/A's Office or l&S ehould undertake to expedite that Secret clearance, and
time and again Shelf has said it takes just as long to Clear a guy through
Secret as it do (49 through Top Secret, and we have to gain this time somehow
or other if we are not going to have too long a lead time from the time we put
our finger on a good boy until we get him working for us.
COLONEL BAIRD: That is one of the details I thought would be under the
DE/A procedure.
MR. AMORY: I was just commenting, but that was one of the things I
thought would be worked out on this.
MR. WOLF: la it satisfactory to this group that Colonel Baird's auges-
tion be carried out?
GENYRAL MORRIS: y j1? H.
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[ COLOMIL BAIRD: It. La the understanding there will not be any flail
decision, but I would like not to waste a month. Bo when you come to the newt
Board meeting. . . and you aren't ready to makeup your minde . . . I am
assuming at the newt Board mooting we will be able to.
-
L. WOLF: Right.
Mr. Wolf, mmy / distribute this longevity recommendation? 25X1A
MR. WOLF: By all mons. It is much better than sending it all around.
If there is no other new business 1 would suggest that we call the meeting
25X1A
ed.
Thank you.
? ? ?
The meeting adjourned at 5:10
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