CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD 20TH MEETING THURSDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1954 4:00 P.M. DCI CONFERENCE ROOM ADMINISTRATION BUILDING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000600010007-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 24
• Document Creation Date: November 17, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 10, 2000
• Sequence Number: 7
• Publication Date: February 4, 1954
• Content Type: MIN

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COPY 1 OF 3 COPIES
CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD
20th Meeting
Thursday, 4 February 195+
4:00 p.m.
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
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20th Meeting
Thursday, 4 February 1954
1+:00 p.m.
DCI Conference Room
Administration Buildin(
Lyman B. Kirkpatrick
Inspector General, Chairman
Matthew Baird
Director of Training, Member
Chief of Operations, Alt. for DD/P, Member
Special Assistant to DD/A
AD/Communications, Member
Harrison G. Reynolds
DAD/0, Member
Personnel, Member
Huntington Sheldon
Alt. for DD/X, Member
Executive Secretary
Secretariat
Reporter
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. . . The 20th Meeting of the CIA Career Service Board convened
at 4:00 p.m., 4 February 1954, in the DCI Conference Room, Mr. Lyman B.
Kirkpatrick presiding . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Will you come to order, gentlemen?
The main item of discussion is this little paper that I passed out
to you last week, but there are a couple of other things that T would like
to take up first so that we can devote the bulk of the period going over some
of the thoughts in that paper.
Matt Baird raised with me a problem presented by an individual who
has been largely utilized by one of the Divisions in the DD/P complex, a man
with a most unusual background for this Agency. His name is 25X1A9a
Now, the thought is this, there seems to be an indication to the
25X1A9a effect that no one of these four can fully utilize Mr. on a 100 per cent
basis and it has been suggested both by and by Matt that a system
be worked out whereby his broad background of specialty can be utilized full-
time by the Agency but that it be split between the different segments of the
Agency, perhaps as a precedent for other similar cases to be divided the same
way. I think obviously the first question that arises is whose TO is he on?
And everybody will immediately say, "Well, put him on somebody else's."
Actually, we do have a volunteer in this instance. SR Division has volunteered to
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carry him on their TO, with the obvious guaranty that if somebody comes up
with a specialty that another part of the Agency will carry, that they want
to get the same free use of his time as indicated here.
25X1A9a I have talked to Mr. - about this. He was perfectly frank in
saying that there are other irons in the fire. Senator Case of South Dakota
apparently is interested in arousing the President's interest in further
level would obviously supercede Agency interest and we would gladly yield.
But I think it is important, if we are going to keep this individual on the
payroll, that he be kept fully occupied and that his talents be made full
use of. That is the case.
Matt, do you want to expand on that at all?
MR. BAIRD: No. That is just one case. I can give you an example
of what is happening in another, and I'm sure it must be the same all over
the Agency. The Office of Training is carrying what we consider as the expert
on survival techniques, although there is no present requirement for survival
training, with the understanding that he is writing survival manuals on the
four geographic aspects of survival, and that OSI is using him about 40 to 50
per cent of the time. When these manuals are completed he will really have
nothing to do for me as long as there is no survival training. CSI is then
faced with the fact, what do we do with a man whose time we can only utilize
about 1+0 per cent of the time? The DD/P, DD/I and DD/A all have people that
we would like to use part-time in training. But we have been carrying this
man on our TO for a year now. I know the slot situation is tough and we
don't want to create an extra body of slots like the Career Development Slots,
but if they could be administered so somebody would keep their time and
attendance and see that their time was utilized and divided equitably--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There's another factor in this that we should
never lose sight of. - mentioned it to me. If a man is working for
four offices he really has no one he can consider his home or place to hang
his hat, and no one person looking after his interests, and that is an
irportant factor in seeing that their time is utilized.
MR. BAI1 : Could an organization such as the Career Service Board
take care of that?
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Matt, now that it has been propounded before
the Board, I would suggest this is actually a matter of personnel admini-
stration, and I think Mr. Reynolds could very well take it over and see
what they can come up with in the way of a solution.
Mp. BAIRD: Yes.
25X1A9a m3. _ I can't see any reason, Kirk, why it isn't quite
possible to slot him against SR Division and let him do these other jobs as
they are required, and to the extent that the Personnel Evaluation plays
any role in it, have those others who use him simply inform SR Division as
to how he has performed his duties.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think in each case the individual has to be
slotted or assigned to one unit, and then that unit must be fairly generous
in allowing other parts of the Agency to use him as they see fit.
MR. I do honestly think, organized as this Agency is and
has to be, that if we can't work comfortably across the board in cases of
this kind we're licked. There's no other solution except to give the man to
the Director, which is no solution at all.
MR. BAIRD: This all came up because the Agency was in danger of
25X1A losing this man. At one time said we couldn't keep him and I wanted
him but didn't have a slot for him. I wanted to use him in air training.
25X1A9a MR. M Did they seem inclined to lend him to you at all?
25X1A9a MR.M I agree. I don't know of any case, that I have heard
of, where somebody in training wanted to use one of our people on a part-time
basis--where the guy could be spared--that we had declined.
MR. BAIRD: No, there hasn't been. With the ceiling tightened you
don't usually have anyone that you are not using full-time. If you have a
man occupying a slot at all he is being utilized full-time.
MR. BAI_RD: No. But as Kirk says, he doesn't want to do this for
today and then do it for Smith tomorrow. On the same basis that I
have with OSI, I think OSI should start doing it and let me use some of their
people.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: does point out one thing. I don't know
how widely it is known in the Agency that he is aboard, but my curbstone
opinion is that he is probably one of a handful of Americans who has the
expertise on this particular area and the particular technique of living in
J
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at any part of the Agency that needs to
get anything on that should make use of him while we have him.
25X1A9a MR.
IT,. - The second paragraph of paragraph 5, namely, "Selection
25X1A VS. K_I_RKPATRICK: He is one of these characters who looks like he
The second item on the agenda is the minutes of the last meeting.
Are there any amendments or corrections desired on these minutes?
MLR. BAIRD: Kirk, I don't know that any amendment is necessary but
I miss a clear-cut statement of the action taken under paragraph 5. The
Board approved but decided to delay the discussion--I understand that, but
what do we do now that we have decided to approve this?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The next step is for the Personnel Office to
implement it.
MR. BAIRD: Well, don't we have to pass on our recommendations to
the DCI? To me it's so important. I think it's a very excellent system and
I'd just not like to see it lost in the shuffle someplace.
on Permanent Career Staff," ends with the sentence: "The Board approved the
paper." But the Board didn't indicate any action to be taken on the paper.
~t would appear to me that the action to be taken would be to refer it to the
Director and get his approval.
MR. K_IP,KPATRICK: Does the Director have to approve all of these
things?
MR. This is the setting up of the Career Service.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You mean the paper?
MR. - I am talking about the paper. You can't use the
It's a highly special case.
Form unless there is a Career Ser^~rice.
IM. KIRKPATRICK: Then I think MM4r. Baird's direction is in order
and the minutes should reflect that this was referred to the Director for
his approval.
25X1A9a MR.
They don't because the Board didn't decide what to do.
MR. KTATRICK_: I believe that was the will of the Board.
MR. BAIRD: I assumed that it was.
MR. - Then the action is to prepare a transmittal from
,rou to the Director asking approval of this paper?
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes.
Any other corrections? Well, then, with that correction they will
stand approved as submitted.
The next and principal item of business is the memorandum which I
prepared and sent to the Director. The Director has been a little rushed
lately and hasn't indicated whether he has had an opportunity to read this.
I think I should make it clear, before we start our discussion, that the
principal purpose in submitting this to the Director was to attempt to ascer-
tain some of his thoughts as to the future of the career program to see if we
couldn't avoid doing unnecessary work if we were proceeding along lines with
which he was unsympathetic. However, I think it is certainly in order for
the Board to ascertain the degree of agreement we may or may not have on some
of these items.
MR. Where do you want to start? (Laughter)
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You are sitting directly opposite, so why don't
you open fire? You have a good, clear field.
25X1A9a MR. _: Well, I think that page 1, which is the report of
progress, is certainly unacceptable. Since you know my view on a couple of
these items, I won't develop that at any great length, but I will say this:
At this stage in the Agency's development I can't quite see why the use of
the career Development Slots need be taken as a lack of interest in so-called
career development. If an individual wants to go to the Harvard Business
School I grant you that he may learn something there about being a better
supervisor, but it has been pointed out here and in various other meetings
that one of the things that hails the Agency most, particularly in the DD/P
area, is the question of supervision. But one of the reasons for that is
the fact that we not only don't have enough supervisors per se--good ones or
had ones--but that at the moment we have so many that are just learning
their jobs, that sending them off to the Harvard Business School wouldn't
solve the problem that we have. Now in this outside, or I think it's called
"external training", sending people to Service schools, and so on, I buy
the premise that that is good for the Agency in a public relations way, but
I have yet to buy the premise that it improves that guy as an Agency
employee, and I have yet to see the fellow that has come back from even the
War College who is a better handler than before he went there. After all,
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that is rr business. So-I can't quite accept paragraphs " " and "i" as being
a truthful description of the situation.
Now let's get down to the question of how the Career Service Boards
have been handling; their work, which I think is much more germane and important
here. In days past before the word "career service" was even a glimmer in
anybody's mind around here, long before Kirk and I sat on any committee to
set up a career service program, the assig=er_t of personnel in the Office
of Special Operations, which was the only part of the Agency that I knew any-
thing about, was lamely handled by the Division chiefs--it was not handled
by the Personnel Office and it was not handled by the Assistant Director, ex-
cept in unusual cases where he had a particular view on some assignment--and
that by and large, individuals in the various Divisions continued to be assign-
ed within the compass of those Divisions. There were a few exceptions but
they were definitely exceptions. With the advent of the Career Service
Boards there has been more cross-fertilization throughout the DD/P area than
there ever was before. Now I will be quite prepared to admit, as the mem_oran-
dum points out, that there is probably not as rn.xch of that as would be de-
sirable, but, by the same token, having a Career Service Board passing on
these things, knowing what the vacancies are and attempting to fill these
vacancies from the total body of the individuals available, rather than a
limited body of individuals available, is in my opinion a net improvement in
assignment within the Agency.
KflhITATflICK: Within the DD/P area.
Within the DD/P area.
In addition to that, the fact that the Career Service Boards have
handled matters of promotion is, in n opinion, perfectly proper, because
there is no single individual that knows everybody. 1~,Tobody in the Personnel
Office is in any position at the present time to judge the merits of any
specific individual's attainments or his desire to be promoted, and by having
the Career Service Boards passim on these promotions we have, in effect, set
up for the first time, on a pendent basis, actual promotion boards where
individuals are sitting who are in a position to make a substantive jud eat
as to what the performance of the rmn. in the field has been, who know enough
about the working conditions and the work to make some sense out of those
promotions. I therefore think that within the DD/P area that is a net gain.
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Now, in. answer to the point of rotation within the Agency between
DD/P and DD/I, DD/A and DD/P, and so forth, I ain quite prepared to admit not
very much of that has taken place. But I would submit in evidence that as
far as the DD/P area is concerned we have had a very difficult time filling
the important slots we have had both overseas and in Washing-ton. I am not
talking about bodies of personnel now, I am talking about responsible jobs.
So that the problem that we have faced is that the individual who is accept-
able to the DD/I, for example, to go on the Board of National Estimates or
to work in OCI or in ORR, is generally a pretty, senior fellow and a damn Zood
fellow, because they don't want any deadbeats, and, as a consequence, is a
hig ly valued employee of DD/P whom he feels, at this particular juncture,
that he needs in order to prosecute his mission. I have no doubt the time
will come when there is going to be a better system of rotation between the
Offices and Deputy Directors, but it seems it is pretty early in the game to
hope that is going to work very satisfactorily. I can state one specific
case that I know where we had an individual who had very definite substantive
knowledge on a part of the world but he had really run his tether out in his
work that he had been doing in intelligence, etc. He was going to leave the
Agency, go on leave-without-pay and finish his degree. It was pointed out to
him that he did have available to him to go to one of the other Offices and re-
fresh himself and make available to the Agency, on a different basis, the sub-
stantive knowledge that he had. He was so assigned. A year went by and
the Office came back and said, "Would you take the fellow back? He doesn't
have that high-level approach to the world that we need for this particular
job." Fair enough, but it ;i? ;lily indicates that these neo?lc in some cases
aren't readily interchangeable. The interchangeability just isn't there,
somehow, with all the best will in the world. Another fellow was terribly
interested in language teaching. He wanted to resign and study lan?uages,
etc. He felt he had run his tether out in the clandestine service. I talked
to Matt Baird about it and Matt has arranged for his language teaching. He
saved him for the Agency, and I am sure he will be very valuable to Matt and
to others. There is one, I think, that has worked or will work.
MR. BAIT : It sure has.
25X1A9a MY, - And I want to say I very seriously question whether
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there is any artificial procedure we can institute which is going to improve
that situation today.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me interject there, because I think we have
come to a fairly fundamental issue on Career Service. I was tempted to add
the sentence at the end of this paper--and I had it in and then took it out,
and had it in and took it out--that I thought the time had come when, if we
are going to talk about a Career Service Program anymore, we should either do
something about it or stop talking about it. And by that I meant exactly that,
in the simplest terms--let's eliminate the term "Career Service" from the
lingo of this Agency--for one reason, and that is from our ranks we constant-
ly get the cry, "Well, I've heard an awful lot about this Career Service
Program but just exactly what does it mean to me?" This is something I have
to live today because I have to o down and speak to the Orientation Course
on "You and CIA," and what I am going to tell them about CIA and their re-
lationship is a pretty difficult thing to say without having my tongue in my
cheek. And whereas I will do that for the Agency up to a certain degree, I
am not willing to compromise my integrity very much further than I feel it
has been compromised to date. When you get down to what CIA can do for
these people we all know, having gone through the Legislative Task Force
routine, that basically speaking we aren't much different from other Govern-
ment employees, except perhaps adversely because we have to live in the
realms of secrecy and security, and serving in a job not rewarding except
for the self-satisfaction. Consequently, when we speak of rotation within
CIA one of the attractions that this Agency has had, and rightly or wrongly
one of the attractions which our personnel recruiters have held out, was
the opportunity to change between jobs, to go into different parts of the
Agency to broaden their careers. One of the items we all talk about as part
of the future of CIA is that we want to make you the best of all possible
intelligence officers, to give you a thorough grasp of the situation so
that you can do it.
Now, I an-perfectly willing to concede that within the DD/P area
what has been done in the last year and a half has all been beneficial. I
also would like to say, perfectly frankly, that when I went down to SO I
found that in 10,51 the SO Personnel Board was doing a very good job in
handling the items which Career Boards are now doing. It was a forerunner
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in its field to the Career Boards of today. But I feel equally strongly that
unless we set up some system--and I am perfectly willing to concede that any
system we set up may have flaws in it and we have to proceed on a trial and
error basis--some system for orderly rotation within the CIA for the DD/A
people to go to the DD/I, and the DD/I to go to the DD/P, right around the
board, so that we can say to our people: "Well, there are X-number of slots
which are the DD/P people who will serve in DD/I over a period of time" --
right around the board, an orderly system of slots, or we had better stop
talking about rotation within CIA and go back and say that the compartmentation
of this Agency is such that except for the rare individual who we can reassign,
that generally speaking your career is in the area in which you have joined.
That is why I feel that this business of rotation is really one of the corner-
stones on which Career Service is laid. Admittedly I don't have the panacea
to answer this, but it seems to me that a standard number of slots allocated
each year for people to go into the other areas, or something like that, is
what is required. Maybe that isn't the way to work it but we all must admit
that the ad hoc basis on which it is worked today isn't the right way from a
Career Program standpoint.
25X1A9a MR. _ Well, Kirk, I wanted to go on and add one further comment
after I had spoken in this vein that I had, which was just going to be my
close-off here. I do think it is possible to do that and I did not mean to
indicate that it was not possible to do it, but I think we have to somehow
adjust this idea to take care of a younger and lower-grade individual rather
than attempting to do this career rotation business with the middle-aged guys.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'll buy that 100 per cent. I had lunch yester-
day with Hanson Baldwin who is an old and close friend of mine, and I knew
him during the war. Hanson is a good reflection of what gets into the press
concerning this. Of course, he did have a close relative in the Agency who,
I suppose, was his source of learning about this. But one of his comments
yesterday was one that worried me a great deal. iie said, "I understand you
are having quite a problem with your Junior Officers." And I said, "Yes, I
wouildn't want to deny that." And he said, "Well, I've talked to quite a few
of them and they aren't very happy about the future of their careers in CIA.
They seem to see a difficulty in proceeding with the bureaucratic delays,
administrative bottlenecks, and so forth." So I would be the last one to say
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rotation should be on the highest level. As a matter of fact, I would
think that some amplification of the "Baird System" of Junior Officers'
assignments is almost indicated here. If the youngsters can get the cross-
fertilization we are going to have a lot better Agency.
M . - And aren't those the fellows we are really talking
about when we talk about a. Career Service Program,.? I think a lot of people
tend to think subjectively and think in terms of their own particular prob-
lems about this Program, whereas actually the dissatisfaction or great urge
to find out about Career Service, the ones that raise it most are the young
people from 25 to 30, maybe up to 35. And those people at least--and I will
yield to Ting on this because I don't know enough about his side of the
house, but I would think his Office and National Estimates and O_RR, and so
forth, could use a GS-9 singly on a trainee basis far better than they could
use a GS-14 who has to occupy a key position. And if we can take care of all
the young fellows the old people like the characters around this table, in-
cluding myself, they aren't so darned worried about it anyway. They came in
here for certain reasons and maybe if they want to rotate they can arrange it
themselves. But if we could move the Career Service Program into the GS-7.
GS-9 and GS-11, and see to it that we set up a mechanism whereby we move
these people around, then I think we would have gone a long way toward cutting,
the knot, because we DO have a knot. At the moment we are almost frozen rigid
in the three areas with all the people above GS-13, except for isolated cases,
because we can't, any of us, get on with our jobs at the present rate of
knowledgeability at the time. There just aren't enough knowledgeable people
to hold down all the senior jobs there are today. And maybe if we can agree
around this table that we are addressing ourselves to the young fellows who
are just getting families and who are just getting started, and so forth, and
look at their problem, and look at it from their standpoint, maybe we can
get it airborne, because I think we have got a little hung up on trying to
take care of the 13's and 14's.
25X1A9a m3. - ;That we tried lately, we started with the idea of
two or three analysts who we think Sherman could use in the Staff 2 or 3
years from now, and Live them the type of training he would like them to
have, and they are good ones. They are mostly GS-9's.
25X1A9a iu. - I venture to say we could sit down with
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Tina, and so forth, and take a group of 30 or 140 CS-7's, 9's and 11's, and
actually work out over a five or six year cycle a reasonable program for
them, and still not constipate the work of the Agency.
MR. KIRJ'ATRICK: That is exactly what I have in mind, because I
think once you put it on a cycle basis you have the program rolling. When
this Career Development Slot business gets on a cycle basis and the demands
for those slots are coming on a fairly proportionate basis across the Agency,
then it will begin to pay off.
IR. BA : Where we got into a bind is that this word "rotation"
has somehow got a connotation that it is wholesale rotation. I don't think
that anybody that ever used it initially had in mind that everybody in the
Agency was going to be rotated. I think it is silly to think there is going to
be this wholesale rotation. It seems to me rotation should be on a very care-
fully selected basis and confined to those people who have demonstrated that
they are going to profit by the proper rotation. And you ought to tell those
people tomorrow, because if you tell 600 of then. it will get around pretty
fast, that rotation just ain't going to be for 90 per cent of the people in
this Agency. I have clericals now that think the PER invites them to say they
want rotation to an overseas slot. That is no basis for it at all.
MR. REYNOLDS: I think that is very it octant. I think you have
to say something about that, because it comes back all the time.
PL,. KIRI'.PATRICK: The other thing we have to recognize is that
rotation also would offer the escape for the malcontent and the dissatisfied
eriployee, and they will try to be on the rotation routine as long as they are
in the Agency. Consequently, when we set this up even on the junior level,
which I agree is the best way to start it and might lick one of our worst prob-
lems right at the start, that when somebody is turned down for rotation on
the basis he is a malcontent, he should be told at that time, "you're not
being rotated because you are not a career potential in this Agency. We have
looked at your record and your record isn't good enough to rotate you." And
that should either cut him off from other further attempts at rotation, and
should certainly highlight him as a potential individual to be eliminated.
b~.R. Tin-, does this make any sense to you?
MR. ST~ I,D0N: I see no problem in picking a fi g-ure, say 50, and
sit down and say, "All right, the DD/I Offices will split up these 50 and
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they will tap 50 of their own people on a given time basis and work out
specific rotations for those people. I see no problem on that score at all.
At worst you have to absorb, in effect, some training. That is your net
effect. So what? You are buying future potential by giving up a small amount
of training time.
IM. - Kirk, I agree with you 100 per cent that we are about
falling on our faces with this whole conception of Career Service unless we
can start someplace and show evidence of it in a practical way. And I do
think it is with the junior people we have the problem, and hit it there and
forget the rest of them, and tell them if they are interested they will have
to bide their time.
i" KIPKf'ATPICK: Dick, if we had hit the junior people in the
length of time we have already worked on Career Service, we would have licked
this problem.
25X1A9a b?F?.- And it is dawning on vie that this is the trouble that
has ac:;ually frustrated us all along, is trying to het the program under way
for everybody. I have given up hoping that we can do that, but if we can get
this other thin; going ? ,e would have a conception.
12. LAIRD: I can give you another cx: rqDle, that it just happens
there are 12 JCf's that have ' con assi ned over the past three years to OCI
alone. There isn't one of those twelve that isn't satisfied and has never
asked for rotation out of OCI. The good ones ,ill t ake rotation as it is
shown to them as a part of career devclcpment, but they are not sitting, on
somebocy's doorstep asking for rotation. They haven't asked for rotation to
the DD/P complex. They are doing a ;good job, and some of then: have been pro-
moted three times in that period.
MR. KIRMPATRICK: But your JOT's you can't use as an example. They
were hand.-picked and they were hand-processed, and they were babied through
their careers. I am talking about the kids that came in under the 25X1C
X1 C
- program..
IT. BAIRD: Why does the Career Service prospect stand or fall on
one recruitment effort? Because that was exactly what that was.
I,M. KIRKPATRICK: There were so many of them.
M-R. BAIRD: And the job for which they were recruited folded up
and we have been trying to assimilate them unsuccessfully.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: But do I interpret your views as saying that
this business of starting with the juniors is a wrong way of starting?
MR. BAIRD: No, I don't at all. I have been hammering on the
importance of the Junior Executive Inventory, that it was more important
than the Senior Inventory.
KIP.KPATBICK: Let's not bureaucratize the operation. Let's
get it set up on a siople basis whereby we can Let this rotation of a given
number between the Offices done. And sure, we will inventory them as we go
along. It will have to be done automatically. But this business of
getting solicitation of names and getting them all a notebook and then
hoping that it's going to be used -- let's start the machinery.
What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying 25X1A9a
to get a homogenous whole like the Army used to be back in 1812 or are we
trying to maintain a Corps like the Engineers, Quartermaster, and so forth,
selecting certain people out of those to go through the Command & General
Staff School and the War College so they can serve on the Joint and Combined
Staffs? I think we have to look at the Agency. Some of these highly special-
ized people, there's no reason in the world for them to do anymore than a
detail.
IT.. KIRKPATRICK: The number of people that would go into the
rotation, to my mind, would be extremely limited. They would be the ones you
have coming up--
There are quite a few. Those are the ones who
want to get into the Central Intelligence Agency and want to become cloak
and dagger boys. Their PPS has been shopped around. We make them cryptographers
and that is the most monotonous job unless they aspire to get thrown up in
the Signal Center business. So after they have served a tour overseas and
know the operating officers they want to get out and get into intelligence,
and I invariably let them go. They have learned a lot about the Agency.
But outside of that category some have gone as high as they can go with me
and they don't know the business and can't pull their weight, and they want
to go into some of the other Offices. It seems to me what we are trying to
do, we are trying to build some high -level, over-all people, not the
specialized ones. So I wouldn't take a quota basis, I would determine what
is the requirement, in trying to train some General Staff people, which is
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really what it amounts to, who know all areas of the Agency and who because
of their brains and executive ability are going to be the key people in the
Agency in the time to come. And I'd start with these lower level people who
come in. Maybe there ought to be forced rotation -after you find out he
looks like an outstanding man for training purposes. The military people
have tried this. They used to detail Air Force people to the Army and Army
people to the Air Force to try to make them learn each other's business so
they would be better able to support each other. The Navy required that
everybody do a sea tour every so often, except the engineering only, or
something like that. But it was a very small part of the military that ever
rotated, and the people who transferred from the Cavalry to the Infantry
didn't do it because they got tired of their officers, it was because it was
more desirable for them to be in another Corps rather than the one they were
in.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, you have a breakdown there. You have those
individuals who start out in the wrong Office and should be in another one,
but that is a placement problem. Those are individuals the Personnel Office
should replace in other Offices where they would be more appropriately fitted.
What we are talking about on rotation are the Junior Officers with the appear-
ance of having broad capabilities and the possibility of advancin; to the
level of a Branch Chief or above, and start out with them and give them the
opportunity to see other parts of the Agency. Maybe somewhere in the process
their rotation will stop and they will say,,"Well, I like this better than
I did the clandestine services" or "I like the clandestine services better
than I did straight intelligence work."
MR. SHEIDON: I think what we are trying to accos lish is to create
a certain group of selected general intelligence officers. Today there are
too many very narrowly specialized people. I know perfectly well that in-
telligence as a whole, over a period of years, would benefit if he would see
the other guys' problems. I think that has been demonstrated in 25X1A6a
for instance, when with great hesitation your people (indicating Mr._) 25X1A9a
accepted the idea of the Strategic Intelligence Staff. I think it has proven
it is of real value. They see something of the operations side and the
operations people see something of the'straight intelligence side, and it is
helpful right across the board. Therefore, the people that you select for
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these rotations would be your better, younger men, not people who are, as
you say, rolling stones. With everybody taking the problem on that basis
you wouldn't have to be afraid of getting a bunch of lemons. It would be a
serious effort of trying to build a group of young people right across the
board. Don't you think so?
I~ I think it ourtht to be done initially on a restrict-
ed and highly selective basis.
MR. SIELDON: Yes, and check it out.
MR. BAIFD: I'd like to see the young man or young woman prior to
rotation have been in one job long., enough to show that he or she can hold
that job and do it well, and that may be two or three years. With these
Junior Officer trainees we get some with a kind of a concept that --.then they
come in they can try 5 or 6 jobs every three months, and we disabuse them
of that or they res~,n. And I think they ought to be, for instance, in the
DD/P or in CCI, because those are the two offices where they have demonstrated
that they can hold a job for a hitch which is two years or three years, and
if they have done well in that job then consider them for a possible rotation
at some later date .
25X1A9a 11B. - Well, you ha:: e to keep them for awhile or you couldn't
tell where to place them.
MR. KIF 'ATRICK: Say we tools an arbitrary figure of 120 as the
over-all number for the Agency and then split that, that would mean, in fact,
we are rotating of the personnel of the Agency, which certainly
is a selective rrogam.
1M. YNOLDS: Don't other people belong to the Career Se3nrice
y.rogmm besides that 120?
. KIRITATPICK: Certainly.
KP. REYNOLDS: I am very naive at this thin; because I arm very
green at it. I've only heard it spoken of since I've been in here, but it
is my feeling that the average person in the Agency is thinking in terms
of the professional soldier, sailor or airman after 20 years' service:
Where am I? What is my retirement? What are those rihts? There doesn't
seem to be much said. about that. I think your paper should.
MM. KIFiTAMIcK: Where are you going to be in about 20 years?
About the same as if you were working for Agriculture.
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PLR. REYNOLDS: Is it the same as if you were in the Army? That
is what they want to know.
MR. KIi ATRICK: I think I did mention last time I talked to the
Orientation Course that we hoped to get different retirement benefits, but
that is somethin7 that has to be done by Congressional action.
MR. REYNOLDS: But by and large our grades are higher than
Agriculture.
MR. KI ATRICK: But I am not sure that is something you want to
1M. REYNOLDS: But on the other hand, the retirement of a GS-13
who has served with the Agency--well, he knows he is not going to make a
million dollars out of this thing and he hasn't come in with that idea, but
a lot of these birds--ones that you and I and Kirk really know pretty well--
a lot of those men can earn twice the money on the outside starting as of
tomorrow, but they have been bitten by the bug and they would miss it like
hell if they left it. Some of those want rotation, of that particular group.
PAR. Of the 120 hand-picked rotation ones you are going
to get a pretty good normal flow of rotation. You and Kirk and Red White
are three of the leading examples.
t. Y.IRKPATRICK: I am talking about the 120 of the junior group.
We are going to get the higher level. There is no reason why a stop should
be put on that.
MR. REYP~OLDS: I think your 120 as a sampling is a good idea, and
if in three years you have accomplished a 50 per cent rotation of that 12.0
we will be on the road to success in this thing. Now maybe I am pessimistic
about the timing, but I think it is going to take that mach time to get
everybody in the groove on it and realize what we are trying to do.
It doesn't have to be a, two-year rotation.
IM. REYNOLDS: I am thinking more of getting; the thing rolling, of
the young fellow who maybe has only had a job and a half during that time
and then he is going on to two more years somewhere else.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It seems to me we are all in agreement on this
basic principle so that we can get some action started on it. I would think
that the next step is to ask the Personnel Office to come up with a system
for doing it.
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MY. REYNOLDS: I think that is probably our job. I don't know why
not. We can certainly take a crack at it. It should be presented to this
Board when, as and if we can get the thing done.
MR. KIRHI'ATRICK: Something along the lines of an allocation of
the number of slots to be rotated into and out of each of your components,
and then you simply sit down and start putting names into slots.
25X1A9a ft.
Your idea would definitely be between the DD/P areas?
It would not include my giving Tin- or OCI--
M'R. REYNOLDS: if we take 120 out of the DD/P complex--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: My idea was the total over-all figure: say 30
from the DD/A and 30 from DD/I, 30 from DD/P, and 10 each from Training and
Comoro. Those are Lust arbitrary figures. You may want to prorate it on the
basis of size.
MR. REYNOLDS: The AD's of these various Offices through channels
to select whatever quota we say is approximately the number. We pick the
people and you put them in. They have to be interviewed and it has to be
discussed.
There are two things I have to watch for and one
is that I don't -et rid of somebody I am trying to get rid of. So I think
the Personnel Office should require a pretty good briefing.
MR. - There has to be a central point of control for this.
Pit. REYNOLDS: Isn't that what the appraisal and assessment paper
MR. REYNOLDS: We have a good many now that have been in 3 years.
b?R. - I believe the very first step is to get the Career
N.M. BAIRD: If they are not careerists until they have been in
the Agency three years.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, we haven't gotten to that.
tint I think you can do this rotation as of now.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: This is one part of it. Let's get the mechanics
of this rolling, and then proceed on with the rest of the paper.
The second thing you have to be sure is that
the Office that gets the individual doesn't throw him right in and make him
swim and accept full responsibility for his job.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think the ground rules will have to be laid
down pretty clearly so that the gaining Office or the Office to which the
individual is rotated understands the conditions under which he is arriving
and how long he will be there.
And he has to be under a period of training be-
fore given a supervisory job or a job of great responsibility. I have a
devil of a time with my outfit because they don't want to take anybody who
hasn't been in this game .since the days of Scotty and George and all of the
rest of them, no matter how qualified he is. If I send a communications man
over to OCI in a Grade 9, well a Grade 9 has to go someplace where he has a
lot of 7's under him. He has to be a supernumerary until he has shown his
qualifications.
MR. BAIRD: There is another thing I would like to call attention
to, that this system we are talking about has been in effect, to a certain
degree, with the Junior Officer trainees. We don't want to see that wiped
out.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't think this is going to affect that at all.
MR. BAIRD: I just want that to be taken into consideration.
M.R. KIRKPATRICK: Well, this business of wearing the school ring
isn't confined to your Office alone. (Laughter) That is fairly wide-spread
in the Agency.
MR. BAIRD: There is another thing on rotation which is different
from what we have been talking about--which is obvious to Dick--and that is
that the lifeblood of the Office of Training depends upon rotation. That
isn't for career development purposes, it's to develop the people that will
profit by good training.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It seems to me this is going to give you some
more and younger corpuscles.
MR. BAIRD: No, because to train those younger corpuscles you have
to have some pretty experienced people. Of course, our trouble today is
that everybody wants the "good man," and there just aren't enough in the
Agency to parcel them out. I want the same people that Dick thinks are the
best he has.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I am tempted to put in the rules they have on
television about self-advertising.
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MR. BAIRD: That isn't for the career development of the individual
who is bein- rotated.
Nit. KliATRICK_: Let's leave this particular subject, then, with
the Office of Personnel going into the mechanics of it.
Dick, do you have a SHORT point you want to make? (Laughter)
MR.- I'll shut up for awhile.
You don't want to argue about promotion policies, do you? I simply
didn't want you to think I was subsiding because I didn't have anything more
to say.
MR. KIP,KPATRICK: I wasn't taking it as your acceptance or total
agreement with the rest of the paper.
MR. SHELDON: It is in this paper that I would precisely like to
raise the point that unless the A,;ency finds some technique outside of the
present rules and regulations for getting rid of people that we are not able
to gainfully employ here, any program we set up, career or otherwise, is
going to fall flat on its face.
N'.R. BAIRD: Hear. Hear.
MR. SHELDON: We can talk until we are blue in the face on these
plans, but unless that is taken care of, the Agency over a period of time is
going to get static and deteriorate in its quality.
25X1A9a MR. _ I want to ask a. question, in addressing myself to that:
Has any individual around this table asked an employee to resign and have
the employee decline to resign?
M3. BAIRD : One.
I guess dozens.
25X1A9a MR. - We had one that cost us two years and I don't know
how many thousands of dollars in manhours. We finally got rid of him, and
within two weeks he was back in the Agency.
MR. REYNOLDS: We have a file that high (indicating). It's one of
my immediate headaches.
25X1A9a MR. - What I was wondering,--and I am honestly interested. in
finding the solution to the problem Ting poses--are there so many left over
after you have asked them to resign? In other words, is it a question of a
mechanism to take care of a small, hard corps of those who won't resign unless
they are literally thrown out of the door, or is it a question of a much
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larger number of people, because it has been my experience that when you tell
a guy he really hasn't got it, that by and large they quit.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It's the small, hard corps, Dick, plus the fact
that some of our supervisors just don't join issue with it. And I don't think
it's part of the Career Service Program. I'd hate to see this Board get en-
meshed in trying to discuss the techniques, because it's not a hard technique.
You and I, Dick, have gone through it on various occasions when we have been
described as each other's axe man. So it really is something which is going
to require the education of our supervisors to face up to it, and I think this
new evaluation form is going to make them face up to it a lot more. I might
add that as IG I have told several people to resign when the supervisors fail-
ed to do so. It's a small, hard corps that are going to go through every
bureaucratic Civil Service procedure and fight up and down the Halls of Congress
if they have to.
MR. - Have you had a lot of it?
MR. SHEIDON: No, but I can see it coming.
MR. BAIRD: The reason its size is so small, I think, is that we
hoped they would do it without asking: "Look, would you resign?" Because if
he says "No" there you've got him. So you put off as long as you can asking
that question, hoping that he will resign. I have more than one case being
battled at the moment who haven't been specifically asked to resign, I think,
for that reason.
MR. REYNOLDS: You say the supervisors, and of course it is, Kirk,
because I think in half the cases I've looked over it has been a case where
their promotions have been very fast, and then the supervisor has decided
he doesn't want the person and if he says, "Will you resign?" the answer is,
"What the hell did you promote me for?" Of if he is asked to take a lower
grade he says, "If I was good enough to get promoted to an 11 why should I
go back or resign?"
MR. BAIRD: Kirk, I'd hate to have you go to the Director and ask
that Office Boards be abolished at this time until we are damn sure what we
are going to replace them with. And you haven't asked that the Office Board
of the Training Office be abolished, so this isn't sour grapes, but some of
the Office Boards that I know of, and I'll speak more from the DD/I side of
the shop, I think are doing an excellent job, and I'd hate to see the work
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that has been done in at least three of these DD/I Office Boards just wiped
out. I feel they will continue to act as they are now acting for the AD of
those Offices, even though they be called by some other name.
MR. KIRISPATRICK: What I don't want to see, Matt--quite honestly--
if we change the system, to see the inherent bureaucracy operate along the
previous system so that all we are doing is adding paper work. But I agree
that quite a few Office Boards have been doing a good job, depending upon the
AD and the s irit of the Office in their desire to have a career program.
Actually, that was put in there to smoke certain things out.
MR. REYNOLDS: I concur with Matt on that and I would add that it
is my impression that the DD/P complex has had some successful Boards and has
been helped.
M.R. KIRKPATRICK: In view of the time, I gather from Mr. - 25X1A9a
comments it is not the will of the Board to accept the rest of the paper with-
out comment?
25X1A9a MR. - I'm sorry, but you know very well. this paper was desi fin-
ed to invite these same comments.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, you must say it is considerably moderate
in tone compared to what it could be.
I, . - In a. paper like this, summarizing" past accomplish-
ments, you have to battle some things and then go on to suggested changes.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I was also trying to smoke the Director out on
certain things. lie hears an awful lot about career service programs but he,
quite honestly, hasn't had time to acquaint himself.
25X1A9a le".
On promotion policies the Directors sometimes pick
up the ball and run like macd, with it.
25X1A9a IL R. r s ' . - Very honestly I don t think he has addressed himself
to a single one, but when he sees the seriousness of it he will--
ME. KIRKPATRICK: Simultaneously with this being or, his desk, it
let loose on this morning's Staff Meeting for a fair 15 minutes.
B-a , you said we were nudged for next Thursday's meeting?
MR. We can't meet here Thursday at 4:OO.
Imo. - Can't you get one of OZ.E's rooms?
Al. K.IREPATRICK: Well, let's check. It will either be Thursday
at 4-:00 or Thursday at 11:00.
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Now, a couple of quick items. The Director has approved getting
legislative exception to the Performance Rating Act. It's in the mill now.
I haven't yet received any statement from the Director as to whether he has
read through the legislative program.
has written 25X1A9a
what I consider to be an absolute masterpiece in the way of a career planning
and career management paper. I have gone over it with Ben and he has no ob-
jection to its being used. It's addressed to the FI Board, but I would like
to get Gordon's permission and then I would like to propose this be circulated
to the Board, because it is an extremely valuable paper, in my opinion. It's
the best I've seen in three years.
And the last point, Ting, concerns our conversation. The minutes
show that the Board agreed that a career development slot for
would be revoked because he wasn't needed. 25X1A9a
M. SIEIDON: I gather I spoke a little hastily at that time.
M.- Yes, you would get into very serious trouble. So
while the minutes reflect the Board's action, it is something that will have
to be postponed for a considerable period of time, at any rate.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Okay.
We stand adjourned, and thank you, gentlemen.
. . . The Board adjourned at 5:05 p.m. . . .
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