CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000600040002-4
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 24
• Document Creation Date: November 17, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 11, 2000
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: February 25, 1954
• Content Type: REPORT

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COPY 1 of 3 COPIES
CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD
23rd Meeting
Thursday, 25 February 1954
4:00 p.m.
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
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,CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD
23rd Meeting
4+:00 p.m.
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
B. Kirkpatrick
Inspector General, Chairman
Matthew Baird
Director of Training, Member
DC/PP, Member
Colonel
DAD/CD M-W
Harrison G. Reynolds
AD/Personnel, Member
Huntington Sheldon
AD/I, Alt. for DD/I, Member
Lawrence K. White
Acting DD/A, Member
Frank G. Wisner
DD/P, Member
ecutive secre
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
Secretariat
25X1A9a
Reporter
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171 T
. . . The 23rd Meeting of the CIA Career Service Board convened at
4:00 p.m., 25 February 1954, in the DCI Conference Room, Mr. Lyman B. Kirkpatrick
presiding . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Gentlemen, shall we come to order?
Item 1 is the minutes of the last meeting. Are there any corrections
or changes desired?
: They are okay by me.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: If not, we will consider them acceptable as presented.
Item 2, we have asked
of the OCD Career Service Board
to come up and give us a brief presentation on what that Board has been doing in
the way of career planning. I think it is fairly obvious to you, gentlemen, from
may comments to the Director on career planning, that I consider career planning
one of the keystones of a successful career service program.
So, Jean, with that brief introduction, will you give us the word?
Yes, but I really didn't know this was going to be
a presentation. I just made some rough notes, and if you will bear with me I will
give you my thoughts on the career service program. I trust you won't hold it
against me. It's strictly my personal idea.
First, I'd like to say that I think the career service program and
the policy and thought that went into the development of this program is very sound.
I do feel that the keystone of a career program is the career planning, and I
think that that has really bogged down. And the keystones of career planning are
rotation and training. I think training--and I'd say this even if you weren't here,
Matt--I think training has done an outstanding job. I'm not too sure that we are
getting all that we could by not having an adequate plan for each individual as to
what training he should take. Rotation is virtually non-existent today.
I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, on that paper of yours on the 26th of
January where you pointed out a lot of the accomplishments of the career service
program, and when you pointed out many of the shortcomings of the program.
Now here is what we have done in OCD. In OCD we have a board and we
include on that board all of our Division Chiefs simply because no one individual
knows or can give the board a good background on any individual unless he is in
that same Division. At least, our Divisions number around people, so
we have them all sit in. We meet only once a month. We rotated people--we "tried"
to rotate people, and it was--as you put down--largely a slave-mart sort of deal.
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Then in September we asked each Division Chief to come up with a career service
plan for two or three of his most promising Junior executives, the plan to map out
what that individual should do over the next ten years in order to become a more
competent Agency intelligence officer. We received 24 such plans. We tried, and
I say that because that is exactly what we did., we "tried" to put one plan into
effect. The gentleman was a graduate of the Junior Officer Training Corps. He
has been in OCD almost two years. He now has a plan where he ought to go overseas,
and he ought to get possibly some FQA experience after this, or Department of Defense,
STATSPEC
and then possibly a little m or OOC, and then he ought to come back for reassign-
ment. In other words, this is a 10-year plan. The next step in this plan would
be an assignment to the DD/P area.
MR..WISNER: What is the age of this man?
25X1A9a COLONEL M 28 to 30 years old, in round numbers. That is about
right.
MR.
MR. WISNER: And his grade?
COLONEL M Either a 9 or an U.
What we have attempted to do for the past five months was to get one
of the DD/P boards to assume this man for an eventual assignment overseas, we had
hoped. He would be carried on, we hope, a Career Development Slot. We would be
responsible for the man and for his reassignment when he came back. He would be
an extra number, as it were, wherever he were sent. So far we really haven't made
too much headway. 25X1A
And now I will tell you why we have him, and I will tell you what I
think is wrong with the present setup. I don't think that 25 boards, or 20 boards
or so, are too many; for instance, our board is responsible now for M people. I
don't think that a board can handle more than that. I don't think a board could
handle more than people if they are going to do an effective job. But
all of these boards have been operating independently. They haven't had what I
term an "administrative chain of command." There has not been established the
echelons through which we could go for operating action. This Board here does fine
in giving and setting policy, but there is no cohesion between the existing 25
boards. There is no way where somebody could take action and tell the FI Board:
"Yes, you will take this man as an extra number," or tell mar board that I will ab-
sorb so and so, and so and so, over the next year or two years. Now I think that
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that could be licked by retaining most of your present boards but then by establish-
ing higher boards; in other words, in the DD/I area I believe there should be a
board consisting of the chairmen of all of the DD/I office boards, and I would serve
on that board and Joe would serve on it, and the head man from 061 and the head man
from ORR. Then I would go to that board with actions that I want taken, not policies.
"I want John Smith to get a tour in 00C." Therefore, if the OCD board approves of
it I then make that an item of the agenda of the DD/I board, and we resolve it at
that board meeting. Similarly, I feel that the DD/P should have a board consisting
of its sub-board chairmen; and the same with DD/A. Then take the DD/I area, with
which I am familiar, say every office in DD/I wants to send somebody overseas. May-
be you want to Send two or three, --I mean for special rotation. All of those would
float up to the DD/I Board. The DD/I board would say, "This year we can only rotate
four people from DD/I to DD/A." Then that board would determine whether it would be
the OCD candidate or the 00 candidate or the OSI candidate or the ORR candidate.
Then they would make their decision and it would approach the DD/A board in that
manner. This board would probably have a sub-board which would be the overall oper-
ating, governing board for the day-to-day operations, not for policy. That way I
think we could get action on these things. There would be some means of implement-
ing these plans if the plans are valid.
The other thing that I have is this: Should all this be done in an
evolutionary manner? I think the existing boards can be used. I don't think we
ought to disrupt this whole thing. We have just barely gotten this balloon off the
ground, and now I think we have to make it work. I think we should investigate the
rotation and the training for our junior executives. I think we should take it
slow and easy, let's say rotating out of one major complex to another at the rate,
this first year, of 10 or 15 at the most. If it is successful, and as we develop
experience and as we develop know-how and we know the pitfalls to avoid, if we want
to step up the program we step it up, but I think it should be done on a gradual
basis. We can eventually make the thing work. I think a lot of our employees have
the idea that rotation means that everybody gets on the merry-go-round. I don't
think that would work. I think it could be started on a very small basis, and I
would so recommend. Insofar as whether or not it is feasible to rotate people, I'd
like to show some figures here. In the past 3 years OCD has transferred 79 people
to the DD/P area. Therefore, it seems as though employees of the so-called overt
side can be used in the covert side.
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MR. KIMATRICK: Let me ask a question, Jean. Would you take all
79 back?
COIANEL I refuse to answer. I would take most of them, yes.
I would take most of them.
And, also, in that same three-year period we transferred 78 people
to other offices, DD/A, and other offices within DD/A. Now these were straight
out and out transfers. This does not mean our people are unhappy or have low
morale.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What about the flow?
t is the reverse coming into you from other places?
I would say, as an off-hand guess, probably about
the same. I don't have the figures here. Probably not quite as high from DD/P
to us but it does exist.
Now, as I was going to say here, this does not reflect unhappy employ-
ees and low morale in OCD. It's simply that OCD is a wonderful spot for a person
to come into the Agency to get basic, fundamental background, and we feel that any-
body we take and then they go on to greener pastures, so much the better - and I
wouldn't deny their transfers. Also, we must admit that many people come into
this Agency without knowing just what they are getting into, and the minute they
find out they are in OCD and they are a humdrum librarian with no possible chance
of going overseas, they become slightly, oh, shall I say "restless" and try to see
if there isn't some way they could get into an outfit that may result in an over-
seas assignment. Were we to offer a good rotation plan a lot of these people would
never have left us. They would have gone on a rotation to overseas and then they
would be happy to come back. So that is another benefit that would be derived
from rotation.
MR. KIFK'ATRICK: Would you say a couple of more words on your career
planning? You said 24+ were done. Were they done by the individuals themselves?
Were they the ones that suggested this was the type of career they wanted?
: This is the way we went about it. We asked the
Division Chief to select the two or three juniors with the greatest potential. Then
the Division Chief, together with the individual sat down and worked up a career
development. In other words, he was not left to himself, yet his wishes in the
matter and his possible ambitions and possible abilities were taken into account.
It was a joint effort by the Division Chief with the individual, and then submitted
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to the board, which is all of the Division Chiefs and myself, and we reviewed these
and we just have them on file. The Division Chief is responsible for following
up on these plans and for putting forward recommendations for training, for ro-
tation and so forth to the 0? board. In other words, the Division Chief then
takes a personal interest in these two or three people and he will come to the
board next month and say, "I would like to have him go to Georgetown this year," and
so on. In other words, he keeps track. He has,the progress chart, as it were, of
those he has selected.
MR. M He follows the plan that has been reviewed and approved
by the Board, however.
Yes, he executes, however. Now the plans are not
inflexible, they are very flexible. Also, those individuals that were originally
chosen may be dropped at any given time if the Division Chief or the board should
change its mind and decide to sponsor some other candidate instead of the one that
was originally proposed.
Mr. Sheldon joined the meeting
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You mentioned in
plan possible service 25X1A9a
in other Government agencies? Was that a part of many of the plans? Because I
don't think it is terribly practical except in rare instances.
25X1A9a No, I doubt if that appeared in more than two out
of the 24 or 25.
MR. KII ATRICK: Take= for example, our workload _ is 25X1C4a
so heavy for the required number of people that we have to put there that I think
to bring in a career service program which would put a burden- might be 25X1C4a
the straw that broke the camel's back over there.
MR. WISHER: And it isn't entirely a question of what Kirk has said,
which is perfectly true as far as it goes. We have a very special problem today
of loading additional personnel in. But I think, again, it gets to be a question
of quantity. You can judge this only when you know how many people you are talk-
ing about per year or per period, whatever it may be.
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25X1A9a
MR. Was thm aspect of plan for head- 25X1A9a
25X1C4a quarters duty - or overseas 25X1C4a
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You mentioned both 25X1C4a
25X1A9a MR. _ Wasn't it in which case they 25X1C4a
would just get an extra number for free, under your concept?
25X1A9a Only we suggested here on a peripheral reporting
post. But everything I said I would like to have considered in the light of a
very minimum beginning. We have only pushed one of the 24+ cases thinking that if
we could ever get our foot in the door and get a program started or a program
accepted in theory, perhaps then we could move on to two, three, or four more.
The other thing that I think happens today is that all of the 20 some
odd boards function in an entirely different manner, and think they have different
types of responsibilities.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: We joined that issue last week, and Mr. ~ is 25X1A9a
charged at the moment with the responsibility of coming up, for this Board, with
a list of the major differences that exist, so that we can lay down a formula for
the boards to operate on which will standardize board procedure.
I was thinking if you had a DD/I board consisting
of the chairmen of our eight boards, you would--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is a technique to accomplish it.
That would help to standardize the operation of all
MR. M The point of the number of these boards has been the cause
of a great deal of misunderstanding and dismay. There has been the thought that
we would set up five boards to give individual attention to _ people. Ob- 25X9A2
viously that is impossible, and I don't think it has ever been the intention of any-
body to do it that way.
. . Mr. White was called from the meeting . . .
25X1A9a MR. It should be understood, however you set these up there
would have to be enough sub-boards or panels or mechanisms so that you can, at a
supervisory level, study these things and submit to the top boards only matters of
policy or matters involving clearly senior people who would come to the attention
of the members of these top boards in any event. I think there has been a boogeyman
in this whole business of merging career service, and rather an unnecessary one,
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because it couldn't work and there has been no intention of working it that way
or trying to work it that way.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Anymore questions for because I 25X1A9a
want to skip on the agenda to item 4+, in view of the fact that that ties in very
directly with what we have been talking about. And, Jean, I hope you will stay,
if you would like to, to hear the rest of the meeting.
Harry?
MR. REYNOLDS: The first item in 4 concerns the paper which will be
circulated in the Office of Personnel asking each person to fill out their own
thoughts about what they want to do, - a career plan. I am informed that other
offices have a similar questionnaire. I have copies of our plan here to submit to
other offices to tie it in with theirs, with the thought that the Executive Secre-
tary will use that as an overall questionnaire which could be used by the entire
personnel of the Agency in giving their answers.
MR. KIIATRICK: I would certainly be in favor of a standard
questionnaire to be used by all office boards so that when correlation takes place
and you get into this matter of rotation you don't have to do the job half over
again.
25X1A9a MR. Are you going to give this questionnaire to every in-
dividual? Because then there is a presumption that you are going to do something
about it. I think that is a dangerous thing to start doing.
MR. REYNOLDS: I don't think we should. We should possibly do it on
a sampling basis.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would think so. I would think OCR's technique
of taking two or three of the top juniors in each Division or Branch, and using
them as samples, with a covering statement to the effect that this is an explora-
tory sampling technique, and that rotation is for a very small percentage. Because
I think we must take concerted and strong action to kill the belief around here
that this is going to be an Agency of whirling dervishes around here, that every-
body is rotating simultaneously.
25X1A9a MR.
dangerous.
That is what bothered me. I think it would be very
MR. - That had been discussed but I don't think the Personnel
Career Service Board made a final decision on that. I suggested to Mr. Reynolds
that in connection with this survey which I am about to launch on a COMM
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denominator procedure, that I could also do this and find, for the consideration
of this Board, perhaps a formula or common denominator for a questionnaire, by
drawing together the Security Office Career Development Plan procedure and others.
MR. KIRFC'ATRICK: I think without in any way stultifying or negating
the initiative taken by the boards, that if you can do that and we can get a stand-
ard form and a genuine understanding of how this is to be used so that we don't
start a false rumor going around that everybody is going to get into this, that it
would be worth doing. It might tie in, simwltaneously, with item 3 on the agenda,
which we will get to later.
MR. REYNOLDS: The second portion of paragraph 4 concerns the files
of the Agency. The words "chaotic condition" have been used in connection with
the files of the Office of Personnel, and the words are correct, they are in a
chaotic condition, there isn't any doubt about it.
MR. KIMATRICK: I'd like to correct that, Harry. The words "chaotic
condition" were not used, necessarily, in regard to the files of the Office of
Personnel, they were in regard to all personnel files in the Agency, many of
which aren't even in your possession.
MR. REYNOLDS: That is exactly correct. I consider the correction of
the files' problem the most important function that we have to perform and start
performing very soon, and get right after it. Equal in value to the proper ad-
ministration of the files' system in the Office of Personnel is the absolute right
of any member of CIA to have his file in proper condition, containing all of the
elements which records his service with the Agency, and properly safeguarded. We
propose to do that, and it will mean we have to have the cooperation of every
office in CIA down to its lowest units and sections in order to get that right.
And I think this Board has every right to demand that these files be put in proper
shape. I have them laying on my desk and they just aren't worth anything. They
have a few records of promotions and transfers but there are no commendations, no
reprimands, and things have been taken out and withdrawn. They are in perfectly
dreadful condition. Now it is our responsibility to do that, and at the present
moment we have under study the following: (a) What papers should we consider as
Official Personnel Documents? (b) The method of officially identifying such docu-
ments. (c) The criteria for the use of such documents. And (d) The control pro-
cedures to insure their availability for appropriate use and preclude their un-
authorized destruction or dissemination.
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As I said, we believe that every single career service member has the
right to have his record complete, the right to have the information concerning
his personal affairs protected, as well as the right of supervisors and officials
to see those records on a need-to-know basis.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me switch hats very rapidly here and speak as
Inspector General for a few minutes.
MR. KIR PATRICK (Continuing): After looking into the matter of per-
sonnel files in connection with my review of the work of the Office of Personnel,
I can only say that I think our files are in equal, if not worse shape. It's a
case of the Personnel Office having the master files which have SOME of the inform-
ation but never all of it. I have never yet gotten a personnel file in which I
found all of the information on the individual that I wanted. The offices and the
Divisions have files, and they even get down to the branch level with files. They
all have bits and pieces. I have proposed far more drastic steps than I believe
Harry is willing to take, to get the files under control, keep them in the proper
hands, and prevent people from seeing their own files - which, after all, is a very
unorthodox method of procedure. Now this is going to require policing right
across the board, and the strongest support from the Deputy Directors and Assistant
Directors to accomplish it.
But the individual is entitled to see his official
"201" File.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes, but I am talking about the psychological assess-
ments, and that sort of thing.
25X1A9a
That is the 201 File, and you are encouraged to go
there. As a matter of fact, when the Air Force separated from the Army, the records
that were transferred to the Air Force were most incomplete, and it was found
necessary to send a profile of each man's 201 File to him and ask him to correct
it. They had me weighing 250 pounds and 5 ft. 4 in. tall, and similar things,
showing that people were obviously doing their job in a hurry. One of my officers
who had served with the RAF on 15 missions and bad been decorated in combat - that
was listed as enlisted service. So I think people should be entitled to see their
201 File, but not their confidential 201's.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think that is an important thing for the
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AD/Personnel to decide on how these should be arranged for, because it's very
important. For example, when a senior officer wants to get the entire facts con-
cerning an individual they must be readily available to him; on the other hand,
we don't want them handled in such a way that anybody can get hold of the con-
fidential files.
. . . Mr. White rejoined the meeting . . .
. . Detailed off record discussion on subject of Personnel Files . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Gentlemen, shall we proceed to item 3 on the agenda,
which is the piece de resistance today.
MR. WHITE: Has the Staff Study been postponed for future consider-
MR. KIR1 ATRICK: That is what we are now getting to. I simply--which
is my usual procedure--switched items on the agenda. We took up item 4 before 3.
I think that is a very interesting Staff Study the Office of Personnel
has prepared, but inasmuch as I was the one that originally suggested the 120 figure
idea, to get started, and also suggested that the Personnel Office start to work
out something--which I think we have a very good start on--I would like to point
out one major area where I disagree with it. In the first place, I feel very
strongly that, if we are going to start a rotation system in which we all believe,
the slots with which to start that rotation system should come out of the existing
slots of the offices participating. Because by the very nature of rotation, if
DD/P rotates 20 people out of the DD/P area into the other areas, it would be
assumed, the way I envisaged the system working, that DD/P would gain 20 people,
and that there would always be a counter-balancing. Furthermore, I think if
this is a gravy train, inasmuch as it is not going to cost an office anything,
then it's going to get off to the wrong start at the very beginning. So I would
recommend at the very initial start that the 120 slots, rather than coming from
an increase in the Agency ceiling, come on a pro-rated basis out of the existing
components. I think the way I just casually mentioned it was, say 30 slots from
each of the three major components, and 10 from Training and from Comoro. Now
that could be varied.
MR. If you do it that way then when your man returns to
you the slot which he goes back to is vacated.
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I don't think that is the kind of rotation we are
talking about. The man may never come back to you. He may find a role in which
he is more valuable to the Agency than. he was in the office he left. This is not
a training program per se, for the individual. He has to be productive as well
as getting his training, and therefore he shouldn't be a supernumerary.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: If he isn't productive then rotation is no good,
because we don't put them in slots to simply view the scene.
It would probably be a year before he would be pro-
ductive, and I would say it could last over a period of ten years if he is growing
MR. REYNOLDS: Presumably you get a man back in place of the one you
Either from Comm or from recruiting. I would
assume the man I let go for this program would probably never come back to me.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Say you move 10 slots, but there will be 10 persons
from the Agency in your slots all the time.
25X1A9a MR. BAIRD: I don't think it would work that way.
No, because I probably couldn't absorb 10 non-
communications people in the limited ceiling that I have. I don't think we should
shoot for a goal of 120 -- I should think what Mr. Reynolds has said, not to ex-
ceed one percent of his component strength. This won't go unless you have a
management that is extremely stubborn and also pliable, and is bought by all the
components as something that is good for the Agency. In that case let the numbers
turn out to be realistic ones.
25X1A9a MR. Would you start with 120 and keep filling the gaps?
MR. REYNOLDS: I visualize filling the gaps as they drop out.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Like Career Development Slots.
MR. Because on an attrition basis you will lose 15 or 20
of them.
25X1A9a MR. M These would be like Career Development Slots, over and
above the T/0 of the office.
MR. WHITE: May I make a comment on that, Kirk?
First of all, I agree with you that I would not recommend to the
Director--and I don't think it would do any good if you did--that he increase
the personnel ceiling by 120 positions, because he talks, two, three or four times
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a week about making it less than it is now. So whatever we do I think we have to
do within our present personnel ceiling. Maybe I have a peculiar situation - I
don't know. Obviously I would be happy to have all administrative officers in the
Agency also be fine intelligence officers, but I would first like them to be good
administrative officers. I am not sure we have even reached a satisfactory situa-
tion as far as having a good professional corps of administrative officers yet.
So if we are talking about rotation among the various Agency components to develop
a professional corps of administrative officers that I am interested in, we are
doing this right now in the administrative field between the cooperation that now
exists between DD/P and DD/A, and to a far greater extent than is envisaged here.
If this is rotation from the DD/A component to the DD/P component in the admini-
strative field, finance, and the rest of it, we are way ahead of this. Frankly,
I wouldn't want to give up 10 or 20, or whatever number of slots you think DD/A
should give up, in addition to what we are already doing, which I think is a good
and a very effective program in the administrative field.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But this, as we envisaged it, and as we mentioned
it when we suggested this plan be developed, was to take 10 or 20 of your GS-5's
through U's who look like they are broader than just administrators, that they
are going up to an executive job at some date five or ten years in the future, and
getting them into the rotation system, as pointed out here, is one way to develop
them as junior executives. And when they move into this Selective Rotation Pro-
gram then they are moving into the candidacy for the Junior Executive Inventory.
MR. WHITE: But if you feel a man to be in the Junior Executive In-
ventory has to have administrative experience and intelligence experience--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Not necessarily, but I think this is one way to
give an opportunity to 120, or any figure you want to pick right across the board
of the junior executives that we want to broaden enough so when they get up into
this building they have had a broad cross-experience in the Agency.
MR. WHITE: I quite agree. But let's take the grade 9 finance offi-
cer, for instance, who has had 2 or 3 years' experience in Ed Saunders' office,
and then he goes to maybe an 11 finance officer in the DD/P area, and he follows
that as a general administrative officer in an overseas station. Certainly some
of the operational and intelligence stuff is rubbed off in that period of time.
So I would consider him as having had experience which would qualify him as a
junior executive just as much and maybe even a little more so than I would if he
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had gone completely out of the administrative field during that period and become
an intelligence officer.
MR. KI1 ATRICK: Why isn't what you say perfectly consonant with
this? The fact that we have a rotation plan doesn't mean that he has to go to
every office in the Agency - he can have a very selected rotation to specific
offices. You wouldn't take the best operator Frank has and move him through every
office, but he might broaden himself very much if, say, he got into Current In-
telligence, for instance, because it gave him a field to show him what he was
fighting for. And he might move over to OCI for say a year's tour, and then right
MR. WHITE: I'm not fighting the problem except I think the DD/I
area, of course, is not participating in this at all right at the moment, but in-
sofar as cross-fertilization between the DD/A and the DD/P, which is where the
bulk of our administrative people are anyway, I think we are accomplishing that
right now, and I think we can continue to accomplish that within present ceilings
and without quotas. We have people who are intelligent, operational people that
are nominated for administrative jobs all the time, and we select them sometimes
to go into administrative jobs. And administrative people are going out the other
way. I frankly don't think taking 20 positions away from DD/A to accomplish this,
is going to help DD/A or the overall program insofar as we are concerned, very much.
MR. They are 20 bodies - not positions, Red.
MR. WHITE: I think we are doing that already.
MR. REYNOLDS: What Red says of DD/P is true of AD/P. Insofar as
DD/P is concerned we have over 60 trained personnel officers now working in the
DD/P complex. I can think of three of those men right now whose value would be
enhanced if they had other Agency experience than just personnel, and they would
do an excellent job in OOC - one of them I know, anyway, who is a highly personable
fellow and an excellent man for any field office.
I thought what we were trying to accomplish here
was grooming people to take the places of those who pass on, whereas the finance
man and the administrative man are specialized. Administrative people are de-
tailed to these other offices, and finance people are detailed to these other
offices, but when you find any one of those people that looks like he could be
developed into something less specialized, than finance or administration, then
those are the people I thought we were talking about that we were grooming for
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other than specialized Jobs.
MR. BAIRD: I'm afraid that we are trying to make generals too quick-
ly. I haven't heard anybody say how'long a period of specialization these young
men are going to have, but I think it should be a considerable period of specializa-
tion - I mean, the process of the specialization, if it has been identified. If
they have, in addition to their specialty, executive and administrative ability,
then they are the ones that should be identified and broadened. But I am afraid
we are still talking about too many people needing rotation, and I don't think they
MR. WHITE: I started out by saying that I think we are quite a ways
from doing our job in the administrative field without taking on the additional
obligation to make everybody a professional case officer.
MR. BAIRD: The other thing that worries me, Kirk, is that Frank's
side of the shop, as far as I can make out--I've just come back from talking to
the Navy about how tight they are on slots, and we are going to have to wipe out
that OCS program as far as the Navy is concerned, and we are going to find it in-
creasingly difficult to actually find places to send people overseas. Frank
hasn't enough places to send his own people overseas. He has more people than he
can take care of and fewer places to put them. I don't know what happens to
these 24 that want overseas rotation. I think one of the reasons no action has
been taken is that there are no spots for them. We have people in the Office of
Training that came from the DD/P 3 or 4 years ago and who expect to be taken back
into the DD/P and should be taken back, but there are no places for them - and
they are good people. I think we ought to go much more slowly than we are talking
today. If Red knows of a young man or young woman, then let him come up with that
young man and say, "Here is somebody I think we ought to do something about," and
not say, "Here, you have 10 slots to do this, or 20 slots to do that."
MR. WHITE: When we were looking for an administrative officer in
say an 11 or 12, we asked not only the area Divisions but also the area components
to submit a nomination, and we usually ended up with quite a few people from both
sides of the house to select from. So we do take specialists out of their special-
ized field and put them into general administration all along. I am sure if you
looked over the records for the last year or two, three or four, you would find
quite a number of those people have gone from the administrative game into opera-
tions of one kind or another. Insofar as we are concerned in the administrative
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field, I'm not sure that we aren't doing a lot of this now. Now that doesn't solve
the cross-fertilization between the DD/I and the DD/P. But I don't think I have
the same problem.
Mr. Chairman, may I make the remark that it seems to
me what you are actually doing, you are really transferring people. This would per-
mit you to do the same thing but instead of calling it a transfer you call it a
rotation. Isn't that what this paper says?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: In effect, yes.
And it would permit more rotation. In other words,
it wouldn't prevent you from doing exactly what you are doing now except put a
different label on it.
MR. KIFdCPATRICK: I can't quite honestly say whether I think it is a
rose by any other name, because, as points out, some of the
people in this system will not return to you ultimately. The same is true of
what you are doing today, Red. What you actually do, in effect, is to transfer
permanently. They may come back to you and then again they may not.
25X1A9a MR. - Isn't the essential difference that in this proposed
system there would be a longer-range plan formulated and watched over, whereas under
our present system there is no long-range plan but there is the immediate transfer
action, and there is no particular looking beyond the job or assignment into which
the man is transferred. I think that is one of the essential differences. In
other words, the combination of what OCD has done with respect to 24 people, and
what you in the DD/A are doing, Red, to such a great extent. The plan proposed
by the Office of Personnel - a combination of those two is, to me, what we are
looking for.
The general plan is that you expect them to cane back?
As a matter of fact, I do not necessarily expect
them back. They may effect a permanent transfer any place along the line, but
the point is they have a home to return to at any given point, if the plan doesn't
work out, and someone is responsible for them - that's the reason for that.
MR. In a one or two-year rotation they wouldn't be too
rich to take back.
MR. KIFOTATRICK: Not in grades 5 to 11. That's not going to out-
price them.
MR. But coming back as 13's, say, after five years--
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: We assume, at least I would assume, that proportion-
ate numbers would be under 11's, but by the time they get to the 11 grade they are
moving up to an assistant branch chief.
MR. WHITE: I don't mean that I am opposed to the plan in any way.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It didn't sound exactly like you were very much in
favor of it, Red. (Laughter)
MR. WHITE: I'm not willing, at least, to contribute 20 slots to de-
velop intelligence officers. I will contribute 50 if it is confined to rotation
of administrative personnel around, or any other number, so long as they come under
the jurisdiction of the various administrative boards.
MR. KIMATRICK: Isn't that the administration of the plan per se,
rather than the theory of it?
MR. WHITE: Yes.
25X1A9a MR. ~ I don't see where you are giving up positions. You
are rotating 20 bodies out of 20 positions but you are getting 20 bodies back.
MR. WHITE: Maybe I'm not clear, but we are bard put at the moment
to come up with all the administrative needs that we have to meet the DD/P's needs
both here and overseas, and I'm not at the moment prepared to say that I will throw
20 of those people, which are already in short supply, into intelligence officer
slots. That is exactly what I meant to say.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't believe that was the concept, necessarily,
except you might have one or two who might want to be intelligence officers rather
than logistics officers.
MR. WHITE: Yes, but I don't want to be told that, "You will take 20
people and they are good people, and put them over to take intelligence training,"
when I am having a hard time trying to find enough good ones to do the administra-
tive work.
MR. WISNER: I am pretty ignorant about this, not knowing the back-
ground here, but doesn't this plan contemplate that even though you have it launch-
ed on anything like the broad principles stated here, it would still very definite-
ly require and take into account the need for tailoring each particular case
according to its own merits and precisely according to what you are trying to do
with the individual? And wouldn't that perhaps supply the answer to your question,
Red? I mean, you aren't just giving away the whole hand on a thing like this.
All you are doing is saying we are going to consider this, and each case we are
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going to study and try to hand-fashion the rotation program for this particular
individual. Isn't that what is contemplated here in this thing?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Actually, in effect, this is an expansion of the
Junior Officer Trainee System. You have a larger group of grades and existing
Agency employees not recruited for this particular purpose but having come aboard
have indicated a desire to make a career in the Agency and who have broadened
their base.
MR.- And have shown outstanding potential.
MR. WHITE: But in effect, I say as between the DD/A and the DD/P
they are more than doing that now. I think I am right in saying that between the
Office of Training and DD/P they are probably doing at least this much. Isn't
your issue really how to get cross-fertilization between your intelligence officer
in DD/I and DD/P?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Not necessarily. I think the basic issue is to
provide a mechanism where your junior officer who has ambitions and desires and
capabilities can go into a system where there is this ability to broaden his base.
Let me throw a question back at you. Are you in favor of this plan
as presented?
MR. WHITE: Frankly, I haven't read it. It was delivered to my
office about 30 minutes before I came to this meeting.
I think one point has been missed here. Colonel
White is talking about his responsibility to service all components with admini-
strative, and Mr. Reynolds with personnel people. That isn't what my concept of
this rotation is. My concept would be when you furnish an administrative man in
the DD/P area and he becomes interested in that type of work, then when you look
him over and see he might be in the area of the Division Chief some day, then
you've got him. But what you are doing, you are detailing people (indicating Mr.
White). That is not my conception of this type of rotation where we are groom-
ing people to be sufficiently broad so that maybe they would be a DD/A some day,
in which his knowledge of all of the appropriate parts of the Agency would make
him a better DD/A.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: In all fairness, I think we are pushing this dis-
cussion pretty far for a plan that has been in your hands only a few hours.
MR. BAIRD: I got the plan at 8:30 this morning and I have read it
once. I would like to amplify what you said, Kirk. What is suggested here as a
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separate mechanism, could, I think, without changing the existing system very mark-
edly, be put into effect through an expansion--an expansion in time rather than in
bodies--of the JOT program. We are taking into the JOT program an increasing number
of Agency employees; that is, people who have come into the program from the Agency--
particularly after the ceiling hit we uncovered a lot of pretty good people who were
without jobs--and I would like to have the Board consider that as an alternative to
this proposal.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think in view of the fact that quite a lot of you
haven't had the opportunity to thoroughly get into this, including the fact that a
very complete mechanism is herewith proposed, that if it is agreeable to the Board
we should carry this particular item over to the next meeting.
MR. WISNER: I am very much in favor of that. Both = and I have 25X1A9a
read this very hastily, and whereas there are some points we have already spotted
that we would like to question or challenge, we are not ready to come up with our
final statement of views.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think in considering it, that each of the Deputy
Directors and AD/Personnel, AD/Training and AD/Conomo should also consider the fact
that, just speaking from what I have seen of the Director's view on the ceiling, I
don't think there is any possibility--not even the vaguest--that he would increase
the ceiling; and that therefore, if we adopt any plan, that whatever numbers are
adopted would have to come from the body politic.
Is there any other discussion of this at the moment?
Is there any new business?
25X1A9a MR. _ I have two proposals for Career Development Slots from
OCD. Colonel Baird has approved them but the Office of Personnel has not had the
opportunity to approve them. I suggest the Board hear ~~~~and approve 25X1A9a
them subject to the technical staffing involved.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Give them to = and defer any action until the 25X1A9a
AD/Personnel has had an action.
MR. There is an urgency for one case only.
School starts on the 15th of March.
After a discussion with Rud he told us the procedures whereby we had
to petition the Career Service Board for one of the 40, I believe, slots that are
available. The first case is a man who has applied for the two-year course at
He is a GS-9, Soviet Industrialist Specialist. He has taken a lot of
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extra courses over the past two years. He's very fluent in Russian. We can't
keep paying him for two years while he's in and we would like to take
advantage of one of those slots. I believe Training has been working very close-
ly with him for the past 18 months.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Two questions, Jean: How long has he been with
the Agency?
I believe he has been with us approximately three
and a half years.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Industrial Register - is that where he is working?
Yes.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Does he intend to stay with the Agency as a career?
Very definitely. I must say I probably would lose
him. I would hope he would come back to us. We assume the responsibility of pro-
viding a slot for him when he comes back, but I have the feeling he would probably
be more useful in OCI or ONE when he returns. But that is what he is hoping would
happen to him.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But you are willing to guarantee a slot when he
Absolutely.
MR. BAIRD: I'm not quite clear on the applicant for the
course. We have only three slots and I don't believe they have come before a
Selection Panel. We usually have six, eight or ten applicants for that.
It was my understanding he had been selected.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Why don't we process that one through and give
formal consideration at the next meeting?
All right.
The other is the one.on which there is urgency.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That one let's defer completely. Now, this other
one has an urgency?
25X1A9a This is a chap by the name of - a very
brilliant young boy in Biographic Register. He has been in Biographic Register a
little over two years. He would like to take a Hungarian course at Georgetown
University, which is an 11-month, full-time course. He has been working in that
area and he is a very deserving young man. He was quite ill for sometime and is
physically handicapped at the present time.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Does he know any Hungarian? Why does he want to
study Hungarian?
25X1A9a Well, he has been working in that area. One reason
is the unique and unfamiliar language seems to be in extremely short supply. It
is considered definite advantage would accrue to the Agency in the acquisition of
such skills on the part of an employee of caliber. Knowledge ac- 25X1A9a
quired from this course would make possible exploitation of the Hungarian press
and other untranslated documents, as well as ability of interrogator. In addition
to the purely linguistic advantages to be acquired from such a course, it is most
25X1A9a likely Mr.- would develop a thorough background of Hungary, and make a
valuable contribution to the Agency. We will assume responsibility in this case
of providing a slot for him when he returns, if someone else doesn't snatch him
away from us.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Does he need Hungarian for his work?
MR. If he is going to exploit the press I hope he will be
rotated to us.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I have just finished a survey of individuals who
have received training who left the Agency in 1953. The work was done by the
Office of Training. We spent a minimum of over $10 thousand dollars giving in-
dividuals language training and area training, and shortly thereafter they resign-
ed, including one individual on whom we spent several thousand dollars giving him
"advanced Persian", or something like that--that was the way the course was de-
scribed. As a result of that I am making a recommendation to the Director of
Training, and to the Director himself, that individuals who are going to receive
this extremely expensive type of training be made to sign a commitment, which ob-
viously we can't hold them to but we will at least have a moral obligation on their
part that they intend to stay with the Agency thereafter; and also, the super-
visors are going to sign to the effect that the training will be of use to the
Agency.
MR. BAIRD: They say that now. They say: "To the best of my knowledge
I intend to make CIA a career." But the General Counsel has told us repeatedly
that is all we can ask.
MR. WHITE: This would be at Agency expense. What specific use are
you going to put that to?
25X1A9a Using the Hungarian to exploit newspapers and write
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and write up periodicals on that part of Europe.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What does that cost?
MR. WHITE: I thought _ handled that.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think both of these applications, irregardless
of the urgency, would need a little more staffing before the Board can pass on
them. Any disagreement on that?
Any other new business?
MR. BAIRD: You don't want to be specific about what type of staffing
you want done?
25X1A MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think there is considerable question arising in
the Board's mind as to whether this training is to the Agency's best interest. And
secondly, if you haven't selected him as one of the three--
25X1A MR. BAIRD: I don't know if he has been selected.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Two years costs this Agency pretty
close to $20 thousand dollars.
25X1A9a MR~ Technically they should not come to the Board until they
have the approval of the Assistant Director of Training.
25X1A9a MR. _ Just as a report of some progress, there is a rough plan
to integrate the DD/P Career Service Board. At least it's on the tracks that
MR. To go back to the promotion business, couldn't we at
some time in the future take up the question of an Agency-wide time-in-grade
policy? Because that is something that is administered by the Board, the AD/O's
or the office Career Service Boards.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Next Thursday at our regular meeting we will just
join paddle on promotion policy.
25X1A9a I thought at our previous meeting Mr. Reynolds'
shop was coming up with a study and recommendations.
MR. REYNOIDS: We have been working on one for a long time but it
was mainly for our own consumption.
. . . Off the record . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Do you have a paper we can use as a talking point?
25X1A (Indicating
I would recommend, then, that the Executive Secretary circulate a
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proposed promotion policy to all members, that we can talk from at the next meet-
ing.
MR. KIWATRICK: Gentlemen, we stand adjourned.
. . . The meeting adjourned at 5:05 p.m. . . .
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