TRANSCRIPT OF STEERING GROUP CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD 10 AUGUST 1953

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000600220001-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 24
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 9, 1999
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: August 10, 1953
• Content Type: MIN

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MR. KI'RKPATRICK: There is one matter I would like the consideration
of. The Director when he was discussing Agency problems in the Indoctrination
Course in May was asked several questions by some of the ladies present as
to the possibilities of careers for women in the CIA, and the questioning
was rather critical of our efforts in that particular direction, so he
referred the matter to the Inspector General. In discussing this problem
with him we decided that probably the best thing to do was to set up a
panel of women, which we did before he left and had a meeting'a week ago
Friday. Now in selecting the panel what was done was generally speaking
to try and get representation across the Board and not necessarily covering
every office but covering most of the offices, and not necessarily covering
the top grades but covering grades ranging from grades 9 through lit, so
that we had a pretty broad cross section. The Director talked to this
group. The first time they met there were 10 of them, and they talked to
him also quite freely on the problems of women in the Agency. They also
Prepared for him just a brief, very brief, statement that he could read
before leaving on his trip so that he can discuss the problems of women if
he runs into any discussion in the field offices abroad. We have asked
this group, which has been designated as a panel from this particular
Board, to study the problems of professional and clerical advancement to
determine for themselves whether they believe there is any discrimination
as such against women for advancing in a professional . . .
The group elected of Training as Chairman. She called 25X1A9a
me this morning and said that in making their study they had run into the
problem of not being able to obtain all of the statistics they wanted to
obtain on women in the Agency, and the exact reason for that is apparent.
As you all know, the total number of employees in the Agency is a fairly
closely held figure, as closely held probably as it should be, in fact, and
I think the Personnel Office is reluctant to spread that particular figure
any further, and I believe they are told they can get percentages rather
than actual figures. Now the question is one involving both security and
Agency policy. We have asked this group to do a job. They really should
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have figures to do it. The question is whether percentages would satisfy
them. The other question is simply giving them the figures they asked for
and have then indicate this is a very closely held figure and not to be
disseminated outside the group.
25X1A9a
They asked first called me, and I referred
25X1 A9a then to First they tried it through and I think 25X1 A9a
she indicated reluctance to give them the figures.
25X1 A9a I talked to about it just an hour or so 25X1 A9a
ago, and there is no reluctance I know of to give this task force the
figures that they need.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: They can have all of the figures? You don't worry
about the security aspeetat
MR. MELOON: We worry about it. I haven't had any official requests.
25X1A9a - works in personnel, and when we first discussed the setting up
of the Committee I got together with and I think that we have 25X1A9a
worked up enough statistics to satisfy any group, and I was going to send
then on to you for your information in connection with this study. I do
feel, however, that we ought. to have a request either to myself or some-
where along the line rather than have - passing out statistics like 25X1A9a
that.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Actually don't you think Rud should be the focal
point so you won't be bothered with it?
MR. XCIDON: Yes, Rud is in there too. Be is now supervisor, 25X1A9a
as a matter of fact, and also from the Agency career service standpoint he
also was in charge of these statistical programs, so he has everything avail-
able to him from that angle.
25X1 A9a We can get whatever is appropriate for them, and by that
do you mean you want to rule now, Kirk, as to whether they should have these
figures or not because those figures are very easy to get because they are
standard figures that are made every quarter?
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: I an not worrying about the accessibility of the
figures. I an worrying about having the over-all number of Agency employees
floating around.
25X1A9a
What level are these people?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: They are all levels actually.
tR;NERAL It seems to me they have been approved to work in
the Agency without restriction, and with due caution I don't see any reason
why they shouldn't have it.
MR. KIRICPATRICK: My reasoning is they have a job, and we should give
them the tools to do the job, and it is a very highly classified figure.
MR. MRLOON: I think we ought to put a limitation on any dissemination
that is made of any report that is put out.
25X1A9a I an getting in touch with , and I have 25X1A9a
25X1 A9a already with to handle the activities of this task force in the
same way and with the necessary flexibility that the other task forces of
the Board are handled, which will mean . . . there are standard procedures
for the filing of reports, and the filing of their minutes, and all that sort
of thing. I think we can handle that.. Kirk.
25X1A9a Where do they actually do the work on this? Where do they
physically work?
25X1A9a in their own offices.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: They have had a meeting down in the L Building
complex the last couple of times. The first meeting was up here. All I
know is that I got a complaint from
has been 25X1A9a
doing nothing but work on this. Maybe we will get a quite effective report.
25X1 A9a I an going to meet with the group on Thursday, and I
will give them whatever statistics are appropriate and brief them on how
to handle it, and I think that ought to take care of it. I do really.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I have a second item that I want to take up, also not
on the Agenda, and it is a matter of promotion policy. The question is that
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there is more and more confusion apparently by the fact that there is no
standard Agency criteria for time in grade. Maybe the answer encourages us
to go back to the old days when we had a standard criteria and everybody
griped about having a standard criteria.
Me MELOON: I think they promoted everybody they had in mind when we
did away with it, and now they are realizing with nothing to fall back on
it is quite bothersome to them having somebody chase them every 20 minutes
for a promotion. I frankly feel, and it was brought to my attention
rather forcibly when I reviewed the statistics that we have run off as a
result of this committee on women, some of the people I noticed on the
listing that we had had been promoted.. I think, eight grades in the last
six years in this Agency. Some of those people whose names I saw on there
came in grade 3 and grade 4 and are now grade 12's. We have an alphabetical
listing, and I went down there and selected some 20 or 30 names and asked
25X1A9 as an adjunct to this survey being made to come up with some case
studies on names that I indicated so that we could show this committee of
so-called professional women that they weren't being discriminated against,
and I also have asked Rud's staff to make a study on the promotions of men
around here as well and to bring it to someone's attention and see if we
can't put, the brakes on here.
25X1 A9a MR. KIRKPATICK: What is the general feeling of the Board about a
promotion policy of that nature?
I think it is essential. They didn't have one
in my office so whoever yelled the loudest got the promotions, and they set
qp time in grade as the guide. You can always make exceptions where a person
has been overlooked and you find he is really outstanding and he was taken
in at too low a grade because nobody knew him. The norms are calculated
each year for grade and time in grade varies by grade; to get higher around
13 and 14 I think it is two years. Now as soon as that word got around,
then people quit griping. They figured their norms would bring them up
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automatically for consideration.
25X1A9a The norm is based on a number of factors. It is a
figure which takes numbers of factors into consideration.
25X1 A9a If they are really outstanding . . . we have one
or two cases where they are really outstanding where we didn't stick to the
time in grade. It has had a very fine effect on the morale. They have
quieted down now, and tneq Ia2ow., for example, that when a new one is taken
on he goes through the Training School, and then he is sent overseas, and
he must perform satisfactorily for 90 days after he gets over there before
he gets his 6 if he case in at a 5 or whatever it was. I think it is a
must to have a uniform policy because it is not uniform now. There is a
certain amount of proselyting going on. I have lost some people to other
offices where they have shopped around and, "Sure, I can give a 9 over
there." I can't give them that 9 because that means taking them out of
order.
25X1 A9a While it allays the pressure during the time the time in
grade is going on, don't you find though that at the expiration of that
time in grade that if the individual doesn't get the promotion, he thinks
it is a matter of . . . ?
25X1A9a t was a failing of the old system.
This is not promotion policy; it is promotion control.
The policy is that you get promoted when you deserve it, but the control is
that you don't get promoted on a completely disorderly basis.
25X1 A9a And a great many, you see, come back from overseas,
and they come before the Career Service Board, and this is all explained
to them. We have had some resignations where they felt they didn't get
promoted soon enough. That suits me fine. I certainly recommend one that
is uniform.
MR. K7XPMMlCK: Would anybody object to one?
25X1A9a No. May I just state another consideration in this? We
have a problem, I think. It has to do with promotion policy of the Junior
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Officer Trainees . . . such persons who have not yet been tried under
working conditions should be promoted, and the length of time, because
some of these people certainly deserve to be promoted while they are yet in
training. We are wrestling with that problem now attempting to set up some
kind of office policy for persons in training -- promotion policy.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well now the people you are talking about, are they
assigned to an office yet?
Not yet only ours.
25X1A9a
They are the lover grades are they not?
es, they run from 5 through 11.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: How long do you keep these bodies?
25X1A9a Well, that depends. Sometimes we put them for a full
year while they are still on the OTR T/O . . . a full year of training in
25X1A92lnother office. = for example, has had some eight or 10, maybe more,
for a period of 90 days, some less and some more than 90 days, during
which time they are still on the OTR T/O.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would say I would just be basically opposed to
anybody being promoted on the basis of their performance in training.
Their performance on the job --
25X1A9a Kirk, you have other
persons
MR. KIRKPATRICK: -- training is a different matter.
25X1 A9a That is one category, Kirk, and there is a second category
of persons we have in long range language training to be conducted in this
country and abroad over a period of two years' time during which time they
are entirely under the supervision of Training, and the policy ought to
encompass exceptional ability demonstrated during the period of training
so that it does not militate against promotion because we retain them in
training because they are very capable people.
MR. I!LOON: They are
25X1 A9a - -- being retained in Training for training purposes.
MR. MBLOON: It has been my observation on manyce the career trainees
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that we brought them in at too high a level in the first place, and there
was no place for them to go after one year's training. I an referring
specifically to some of those we brought in from the University of Wisconsin.
I have one in my own shop who is a 12 now who has been on board here two
years and was brought in at grade 9, and we were bringing the other trainees
in at grade 5, and I argued at the time they should have been brought in
at 7.
25X1 A9a We have a rule of thumb now on this I think that
passes
your shop. If they have a Ph.D. degree and have gone that far in their
academic work we bring them in at 9. And less than that with some graduate
study we bring them in at 7.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: We are getting a little astray from the subject.
I think that the answer to the first question before the Board, which was
promotion policy, is that we should have an over-all Agency regulation which
ties us down. George, will you undertake to get one.
W. MRLOOM: Yes, sir, we have it in the mill as of the moment.
W. KIRKPATRICK: Good, that is, standardize it across the board and
stop this feeling interofficewise, "Well, maybe somebody in the next
office is getting promoted faster than I as because my boss is a stickler
for efficiency."
25X1 A9a I still would like to go back to the question: Will it
encompass the trainees?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would like to examine that, and I think it should
be examined a little more thoroughly because there are several factors
involved.
25X1 A9a If the trainee is not included the tendency will be then
on the part of the trainee to want to go immediately into an office whether
he is prepared for it or not because his promotion will go along faster.
MR? KIRKPATRICK: You have an awful lot of factors here. You are
talking about the trainee after you have been with the Agency two years, that
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is one problem,, and the fellow just on board is another problem. I don't
think the fellow just coming on board should even be considered for a pro-
motion for a while.
25X1A9a
- Not within a period of a year, I agree, and we have not
prcooted in less than a year.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think rather than prolong this discussion, why
don't you put the Office of Training in writing, at$we will take it up
at the next Board meeting.
25X1A9a -: It is in the mill.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Now we will talk about your Junior Officers in
another context, which is a proposal I have to make to the Board. I have
had in the past month a fairly sizeable number proportionwise, and when I
state this I an using a slight bit of slide rule technique, and I feel that
for every one that comes to see the Inspector General there are 10 that
feel the same way in some of these areas, and that is eliminating the
hotheads and the wildmen, but the ones that have got an honest gripe,
and I have had I would say a very high percentage of these Junior Officers
25X1A who were brought on in the helicon days of the Agency two years ago when
were going to right every wrong
situation, and they are a badly fed up group at the moment. I am talking
25X1A about mainly the ^ group but also the whole Junior Officers' level.
I have had several of them -- a couple of them, in fact -- go to see
the Director and then be referred down to me, and they report, and I have
reason to believe that their reports are accurate, that the morale on that
level is very low and that there are an awful lot of people getting fed
up with it, and what I an suggesting is that we might get together, & group
of these very junior personnel to see what they feel the Agency isn't doing
for them that it should. Are there any thoughts on that particular subject?
25X1 A9a Have you had similar gripes on the part of persons who
have gone to the DD/I side?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Not any degree the proportion.
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25X1A9a Have you had any?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes, I think we have.
25X1A9a
Because I think there is a tremendous difference, and we
are getting to the place now where our young JOT'S because the word gets
around among them just don't want to go to the DD/P side.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, they were oversold on a particular plan, which
is partly the Agency's fault, which was beyond the Agency's control at that
time, and at that time they were all flocking to the side of
the house.
25X1A
25X1A9a They have also been jostled a little bit more down in the
Dr/P areas than in the DD/I from a personnel handling point of view, I think.
KR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, if there are no objections I think then I will
try and constitute a panel, and then I will get to give me 25X1A9a
i hand on these youngsters. I think just to give a sounding board among
themselves will help that. They will come up with just a statement of the
problems facing them.
25X1A9a
Kirk, in connection with this promotion policy I agree
with your suggestion there should be an over-all Agency policy, but touching
on that, there is another problem which we are all going to feel very strongly
in the not too distant future, and that is the rigidity of your grade system.
Regardless of whether you slow this thing down, you are still going to face.
the inevitable in two, three, or four years, and I talked to 25X1A9a
about it some time back, and I doubt if anything has happened. If we
66uld evolve so kind of a technique whereby you would have in effect
three grades pay within those grades accordingly of a Senior Intelligence
Officer, Junior Intelligence officer, and whatever you want to call the
third, and each office would be assigned some Senior Intelligence Officers.,
And some Junior, and you have an awful lot more flexibility. You could put
a 16 in a 14 slot and something of that sort. You could move people around
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es, sir.
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to beat the band. I don't know what your legal Civil Service technicalities
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I have been around it at least four time in the
last seven years.
25X1A9a
moment.
The legislative task force is making another tour at the
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The only way we .can change that system today is by
legislation.
25X1A9a I have never heard an argument that goes against that
from a practical point of view.
MR. MELOOA: I could fill that thing full of them.
25X1 A9a i would like to have a chat with you sometime at our
quote leisure.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You will need it because I haven't had the bugs taken
out of that from my point of view.
MR. MU MN: I think I can take then out for you.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I hope that by mid-September we can wrap up a lot
of these things. Now is the Insurance Task Force going
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
Very well. The Legislative Task Force will have a paper
for the Agenda of this group next week provided you clear it, Kirk, which
is not a threat, but it will be available.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But it is a road block.
25X1 A9a It will be available for next Monday.
M. KIRKPATRICK: Fine. Let's get down to the Agenda then.
MR. MEELOOA: I would like to ask one question before we get down to it.
Does the Career Service Board as such have a budget?
25X1A9a It has no budget and has no T/O.
25X1A
25X1A9a
MR. MELOOM: You see, I an being forced to absorb the cost of that
insurance study on my next budget, and not only that, I have to absorb the
Personnel of if we start reimbursing for beginning
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July 1 on, and I have got some pretty close to $100,000 to absorb in that
i
budget, and I don't feel I can pay for that insurance study unless we get
some relief somewhere along the line.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me talk to Red about that because the DO/A was the
one that said, "Oh, we can take care of that, you see." Nov the Professional
Selection Panel paper.
That is the only thing on the Agenda.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Has everybody read this now?
I have an extra copy of this.
MR. KIKPATRICK: General, what comments have you got on this paper?
Well, I think this is a very fine paper. As long
as we have got this legislative problem with the veterans it is almost
unworkable in my office, and I think it can be worked all right here in
three years. The recruits go through a six to eight months training course,
and then they are two or three months trying to get 25X1 C4d
so their year is approaching, and we see nothing . . .
So that the one year provisional period is Just not workable. If we could
get rid of that veterans' preference thing and do as they suggested here,
set up the provisional period varying with the . . . whether he is just a
radio operator,or a cryptographer, or whether he is something aimed at being
an officer, I think it is good. It might be that we are getting the Pro-
fessional Selection Panel and this Board into a little bit too such of the
administrative . . . I an not sure about that.
I think the idea behind it is very good. You practically commission
them. I think that the office head has been ignored a little bit here. For
example, on page 5 -- I an not trying to go through the thing at all --
"Recous~endations of the office Career Service Board shall be referred
by the Executive Secretary of the CIA Career Selection Board to an Examining
Panel for review." I don't know whether that was intended to ignore the
office head or not. I wonder whether or not all people or whether the
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25X1 C4d
office head's recoaaamendation of a man for permanent employment is enough.
They either are or are not with me, and if they are not, then I take steps
to separate them and they would never come up to a Professional Selection
Panel.
I think the view of the Panel was that if you were going
to make such a selection that it was both the Panel's responsibility and
also it was necessary to the Panel to review unsuitable cases. Otherwise
it wouldn't have both aides of the picture and, therefore, it felt that
all persons should be selected, including those on whom you as head of the
office would recommend against.
25X1A9a QEMRAL I don't object to it, but I don't think I would
recommend anybody I wasn't willing to go to bat for. I wouldn't object to
that, but I don't know how you are going to get around this present one year
provisional period and make it amount to anything for me.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: George, can the Director waive that on his own --
the one-year provisional period? Can he establish his own provisional . . .?
25X1 A9a (MMAL He can, but the Veterans Preference . . . well,
after a year you really have a job of getting rid of somebody.
25X1A9a In some cases it is the day you hire him you can't get
rid of his if he spent the one year trial service period in some other
Agency in the same kind of work.
MR. )ELApg: Even coaxing on here within a month you have to follow the
procedure on his case.
25X1A9a
t$aZR It has made me look pretty carefully when I pick
up a Veteran. If I don't pick up a veteran and pick up draft bait, then
I an in trouble there.
25X1A9a The legislative Task Force is recommending that action be
taken to remove this one year block, but only legislation can do it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think your lawyers are going to tell you that
legislation isn't necessary and the Director has the power now.
25X1 A9a They think it is unwise to do that because of the pressure
that is being built up, and charges will be made that we aren't using the
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25X1A
Director's authority as intended. I know feels pretty strongly 25X1 A9a
that the Director's authority was not given to him far that purpose. It was
given to him for security-type cases, and that while there isn't anything
in writing, more or less the wording of our law is precisely the same as
theory the Director could use that, the feeling is that it would be most
unwise to do that for any number of cases.
MR. MELOON: I think it would take legislation if we were to set up
a probationary period for a veteran and to dismiss him upon the termination
of that period, or any time during that so-called period, without using the
Director's authority. However, of course, the Director does have a right
to terminate anyone's services, but if we were to separate him for failure
to qualify during the trial period, it would take legislation to do that.
I don't think you will ever get it through.
MR. KIRKPATIRICK: What is the percentage of veterans in the Agency --
80% to 90% or something like that, isn't it?
25X1A9a The intake now is a little less than 50% of veterans.
That is on a one month sample which we have made.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Does that include women?
25X1A9a : Yes, it includes all persons.
M. KIINCPATRICK: What about males?
25X1A9a Wit. I+EIAON: About 80% of the males within the Agency are veterans.
t#E1 AL Almost every applicant I have who is a radio
operator or cryptographer is a veteran.
25X1 A9a i think you could put it this way. Even though the
ow year period is unsatisfactory for your purposes, General, and for the
DD/p also, which has two year. tours of duty which they would like to use
as consideration, this is workable within that frame of reference, within
the one year period, this proposal of the Panel.
25X1 A9a ~f7MAT T Ann't think it is. motif it is carried out as
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strictly as it says here that "the Examining Panel shall consider all
pertinent information concerning the employee, in possession of the Person-
nel Office, Security Office, Medical Office, Office of Training and the
Operating Offices. The Examining Panel shall, interview the employee, and
his supervisor when appropriate."
25X1A9a . There aren't very many people who get overseas under a year.
25X1A9a
(BERM Oh, yes.
25X1A9a Well, there may be in your shop, but in the DD/P it is
less and lesg5X1 A9a
C EI1gRAL
More than half of my office is overseas.
MR. I+ELOON: One big block I find, Kirk, in talking about three year
trial period, and then Office of Training comes in and says that we would
like to promote these people during a year of training. How are we going to
throw that man out if we promoted him three times during the trial period?
25X1A9a (EIERAL
In the Air Force upon graduation from flying
school he is made a second lieutenant, and then there is an automatic
block promotion. I don't know whether it is three years first lieutenant,
but it is probably faster now, and then you can require him to show cause
why he should not be separated, and he appears before a -- I forget what
they call it now -- review board of some kind.
MR.?KIAKPATRI((: We might set that up as an exception on the first
promotion. Generally speaking nobody would have more than one promotion
before coming up for his career approval.
25X1 A9a our feeling was that until we can get over this legal
obstacle at least anything would be better than what we are now doing. We
have people going into the 12th and 13th month and then decide they are
going sour. In the 11th month we could have gotten rid of them in a hurry.
Int. KIRKPATRRICK: Paul, do you have any coi ents on the paper itself?
25X1A9a I think the paper in the main is good with the exception
of this rather knotty problem.
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25X1A9a
MR. KIRKPATRICK: George?
MR. I4ELOON: loo.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Gene?
said he couldn't go along he felt with the very
last part of,the paper which provides for 50 examiners. He felt that
the problem of standardization of setting up a series of criteria which
would be uniformly interpreted and insure, therefore, some equitable
treatment to all people coming up before the three-man group -- eight-man
group -- that whatever the size of the Panel -- will be drawn from these
50 people -- would pose the problem of uniformly applying criteria.
Who would do the examining then?
25X1A9a
I was just going to say . . . i have to confess he didn't
come up with any alternative or alternate arrangement. I don't think he
yet felt he was ready to come up with a suggestion or alternative. Perhaps
he had in mind a permanent body of examinere. I don't know.
25X1A9a '
point.
25X1A9a
This gives diversification. I thought it was a very good
As You know, I participated in this particular paper, so
that wasn't my own view.
25X1A9a
G EWAL
11
It will be a diversity.
25X1 A9a I think what it does pose though is the problem of having
some criteria . . .
25X1A9a You do have appeals to the top board.
25X1 A9a tEHRI' In the Air Force they have a board d officers on
each base.
25X1A9a : On page 5, paragraph 6,"each Examining Panel will have
a non-voting member of the Selection Board's Secretariat which will be the
common denominator for insuring the standards are uniform."
25X1A9a
That would probably give the desired continuity.
Wasn't there some thinking we would have to get out criteria,
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25X1 A9a You still have this large segment to handle here, haven't
you?
25X1 A9a That is another job for the present Board as soon as it
gets out of this.
25X1A9a GENERAL ^
It seems to me that this Examining Panel is going
to be a rubber stamp in most instances because you will take the recome ndation
of the office head. Where you find an office head that gets out of live . . .
On those borderline cases there is right of appeal. I think in most cases
you look at it and say that everything is fine and won't have to do a lot of
examining in getting the man.
MR. KIRKPATRI?C: Well, of course, there I differ with you because I
think that really the most important part of the Panel is getting the man
before them if possible.
25X1A9a GENERAL I as talking about people who can't get back here
at the end of a year, and about half of my people would be in that category.
And I think we can get around that one. I think getting them to coma before
the panel . .
25X1 A9a I think the examination might be shoved up in say
&bout nine months . . .
Int. KIRKPATRICK: Give them a provisional before they depart and then
make a confirmation action on the record at the end of the year. That would
take care of that for the time being until we get legislation to change it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes.
25X1A9a
RAT They look fine going out, and you can't tell
About than. They get into some kind of trouble.
MR. IELOON: I don't think the fact that we select career service is
going to eliminate some of the troubles they are getting into today.
25X1A9a EEBSRAL They know they are under scrutiny, and then when
it is something like going through OCS.
25X1A9a I think the Panel felt the fact they have to appear
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before the Board is going to focus their attention to the fact this place
mans business.
25X1A9a Red had one other eos~ent to make and that was in respect
to the procedure the Office Boards would engage in in looking . . . or the
supervisor's own comments and evaluations . . . and then making a recommenda-
tion in turn to the DCI . . . an Examining Board . . . that the Office
Boards should in every case avail themselves of information that Personnel,
Medical, Security, or the Office of Training had. I know that the Panel
anticipated that when we wrote this up and said that "recommendations of
the Office Career Service Board" -- it is paragraph VIII, subparagraph 3 --
"shall be . . ." No, it is subparagraph 2, "The Office Career Service
Board shall review the recommendation in the light of all available informa-
tion concerning the employee and make a recommendation to the CIA Selection
Hoard that (a) the employee be appointed as a member of the Career Staff,
or (b) the employee be separated." General, wasn't that your recollection
25X1A9a of what we had in mind?
25X1A9a
itself of.
wRERAL Yes.
I assured Red that was the case, and he felt it would not
be good for the Office board to make a recommendation and then to have that
reversed on the basis of information which it could have had but didn't avail
our point is they should have every point we can give
25X1A9a
them.
25X1A9a
don't know.
25X1A9a
Now maybe it should be spelled out to provide that, I
I think from the DD/I point of view it is practical.
You referred some time back to the possibility of collapsing the number of
boards in various areas. That would have an effect.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes, I think . . . I hadn't intended to raise it
until the whole Board met, but just to start thinking on that, it is my
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feeling that we have too many Career Service Boards which has the effect
of wasting executives' time and spreading the number of support personnel
in order to make them all work. Now I think you can't do it by rule of the
thumb. The nice way to do it would be to say that there would be a DD/P,
DD/I, DD/A, Training, and Como Career Service Board. That would be five
to cover the Agency. But I do think that at a very early date we should
Yook at this whole problem and see if we can't without having any effect --
and I don't think it will have effect at the lower levels -- see if we
can't combine some of these boards.
25X1 A9a We are working on some formula if you would like it
week.
MR. KIRKPAZRICK: If you will have it when the Board meets as a
whole we will put that on the Agenda, and each man can pass the word
back that those are the lines which we are thinking, and the day to strike
for this freedom is early before entrenched bureaucracy gets to it and
then we can't do it.
25X1 A9a AL _
My Career Service Board has a strength of
25X9A2 around _end spends two afternoons a week. Let's see, they are making
job assignments and reassignments, which is personnel work, but I have no
communicators in the Personnel Branch, and I just don't know how you can
manage people. Now DD/P has what -- something like that. 25X9A2
25X1A9a
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is about right, I guess.
(ENERAL That is going to be one hell of a job for one
MR. KIRKPA7RICK: But, you see, actually we have some very strange
organizational peculiarities about CIA today because we have one division
in DD/P area which is bigger than about seven offices combined in the
other areas, so, as I say, your formula is going to have been uneven.
25X1A9a
We have a toe hold on one which is very tricky, and I
refuse to divulge what it is until we work a little longer on it.
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MR. KIRKPA9RICK: But that is a fact. Do you have any questions?
25X1A9a Sir, I an afraid not. I Was asked to represent Mr.
25X1A9a _at this meeting, and I an not in a position, sir, to make any DD/P com-
mute on the paper.
MR. KI8ICPATRICK: Well, the feeling then with one or two exceptions
is that the paper is acceptable. What does Colonel White want us to do
2~X1A
about the. examiners?
25X1A9a I don't know.
M. KIRKPATRICK: Tell him we will be glad to consider his alternative.
25X1A9a Would you want to consider this by the full Board at
a Thursday meeting?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Put it on the Agenda in this fashion that it will
be considered if somebody wishes to raise the point about it. Otherwise
it will be considered approved with the exceptions as noted.
25X1A9a Good, and we will start to work on regulations to put
this into effect if possible.
MR, KIRKPATRICK: Yes, now there is one other thing which I would
like to mention which is not in the formal stage yet but which is neverthe-
less a major factor, and something which I consider part of the real heart
of the Career Service problem, and that deals with the subject of hardship
cases in the Agency, and this is probably obvious A great number of these
find their way to the IG. Nov the Agency has no legal way of handling the
case of an employee who gets into difficulties-through circumstances beyond
his own control, and I think that is the criteria which we have to observe
in these cases at the present time. It ties in with our Legislative Task
Force because that is an important part of the legislation that we want
to retain, but I don't think we will have too much difficulty obtaining it,
although the temper of Congress most recently has been critical of even . . .
Two impartial and objective task forces working on that subject came
up with strong recommendations that they were a major part of your military
career system. After lengthy discussion with the Director, and with the
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DD/A, and with the Comptroller, and with the General Counsel the decision
that has been made on hardship cases is simply that we will endeavor to
establish a foundation to assist CIA personnel who get into hardships beyond
their control. I don't want to take too much time on it this afternoon, but
I would like you to think about it because I will have to raise it at the
next meeting of the Board, and we will circulate a paper on the subject in
advance. There are many aspects to these hardship cases, and I feel very
strongly personally that the Agency's success in handling them has a very
definite effect on the individual's desire and performance as a career
employee. If the Agency can help a man out, and if all of the people of
the Agency know if they get into difficulties the Agency is going to be
behind them, we are going to have a much better career service than we are
going to have if they feel, "If I get into difficulties I an just going to
be told that is tough." I would like to describe two or three of these
hypothetically from actual case histories.
I sound like an FBI radio program, but there is the case of one of our
officers overseas whose child became seriously ill with a very desperate
disease, and the doctors in the area in which he was located indicated
that the best medical attention was in the United States. They also
Indicated to the effect that they felt there was some urgency in the matter.
If the child didn't have early medical attention from qualified physicians
the disease might get out of hand. You can imagine the personal anguish of
hot only this officer but his wife, and the actual fact was that the Agency
could do nothing to return him to the United States until his tour of duty
Was up legally. Nov there was a slightly illegal aspect to it from the
point of duty. Be could be ordered home for consultation and ease it up
that way, but to order him,, and his wife, and his child home at Agency
expense for consultation, etc., was practically out of the realm of con-
aideration. The Director would be in very dangerous legal grounds to sign
off such an expense.
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Case 2 is somewhat similar circumstances in which the officer's wife
was injured in an accident overseas, and medical attention was not avail-
able in the area. She had to be flown to another area for medical
aftention at quite considerable expense, something which only a man with
independent means could afford to meet. The Agency couldn't do much to
help. You can spell these right on down the line, but you will note that
the two cases I cite, and the many more that could be cited, almost are
all cases of circumstances beyond the individual's control.
Now it is my feeling that when we ask people, as we are going to do
Add are doing in certain areas, to serve anywhere in the world we want
them to, to take any job we want them to take and to have a dedication to
duty beyond and above any other Government agency, that we simply have to
get behind them on these cases.
The other factor is that the average individual has enough self
respect and pride that when he gets into a circumstance like this,he doesn't
Ott everybody and his brother to know about it, and he wants to go to
Us boss assuming his boss can handle this without it being circulated
around the Agency that John X has been assisted by the Agency, and, there-
fore, his self respect suffers, and he is not going to stay with an agency
where that is true because he wants to hold his head up among his associates.
The consequence is that we have got to establish a system where the individual
& s helped, doesn't feel that he has become a charity case, maintains his
self respect, and can have it done efficiently and promptly with due con-
sideration, for all of the factors involved. Now we are admitting that
the Agency cannot help anybody today, and that is the only quick solution
that we can get, and the Director is insistent upon a quick solution. In
several cases he has actually said, "I am going to put up the money nyself,"
ttd I have said, "No, you can't do that because it is the Agency that has to
help hiffi, and whereas there would be no question about the appreciation
due you, and there would be no question about your motives in so doing,
we will simply have to get the Agency on the ball to do that."
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25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A6a
started before he left the idea rolling of establishing a
foundation. I don't like the word foundation actually because I think
that implies eleemosynary symptoms, but for want of a better word, I
will use it, in which we would get some of our friends and some of our
wealthy alumni to contribute, and in which the Career Service Board would
then examine aspects within the Agency for obtaining more money to put
aside say a kitty of anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000 that could be used,
the formula being used to do this and along the following lines:
General Counsel first surveyed it with the Internal Revenue Bureau,
and after lengthy discussions they came up with the general conclusion that
arW contributions made to such an organization could be tax deductible.
We are goring to get an outside lawyer to go into it too using the Commerce
clearing house and any other sources he wants to to make sure that is
true because we wouldn't want to embarrass any of our rich friends and
be told it was just one type of individual and it couldn't be tax deductible.
That was the major factor involved. We have asked a group of our alumni, and
I have particularly in mind 25X1 A9a
and a few others like that in - 25X1 A6a
to serve as a Board of Trustees and Supervisors and have a completely
independent foundation, and I have recommended further that they establish
their working group so-called under them a very senior body in the
Agency, probably as an adjunct to this Board, to sit on these cases with
the assurance that the cases would be handled by this body. The information
of the cases they handled would be kept right in that group, and there would
sot be general dissemination of the information. Where the Career Service
Board comes in is first in its relation to this group, which should be
close, and, secondly, in seeing what we can do within the Agency to acquire
and put money into the foundation. Now there are two aspects. One is
the . . . I don't like to use the word kickback . . . that isn't legal, but
what is it -- the profits of CSI, Government Services Incorporated?
MR. MEL00N: Yes.
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MR. KIRKPA7RICK: I think there is $2,500 now available, and so that
is part that will go in, and then it has been suggested that there will
be some sort of a purchasing pool established to purchase items for
Agency employees at somewhat of a discount, and the pool itself makes
profit on the difference between the discount and the cost of the item.
There are quite a number of different methods used. The military services
have their own system, I think, which even helps in educational matters.
25X1A9a GENERAL
25X1A9a
25X1.A6a
M. KIRKPATRICK: But this is now in the mill, and I just report it
to you for your information with the statement that at the next meeting of
the Board itself it will be brought up for full discussion, and any ideas
that can come from the way the military handles it would be very helpful.
GE I think they got funds from PX's. They have a
large fund., and they send children of deceased airmen to school where
the widow can't support them. They don't take care of hardship cases.
They don't have hardship cases. They can bring a man back anytime, and
MATS flies them for free, and they have pretty good hospitals overseas.
1'am not sure that we have taken advantage of that in all cases. We had
a boy out in _ whose mother was dying, and he needed $1300 for his
round trip, and the Credit Union couldn't take care of it, but we found
25X1 C4d out that he could
25X1 A come back
to the nearest stop to his home.
Mt. KIRKPATRICK: Well, generally speaking, when we get those we try
to handle them that way, but we can't handle all of them that way.
It is a very serious problem, and I consider it most important from .a
long-term career service point of view.
Are there any other comments or questions? If not I thank you, gentle-
men, and we stand adjourned.
... The meeting then adjourned at 1705 ...
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