CIA CAREER COUNCIL 9TH MEETING THURSDAY, 12 MAY 1955 DCI CONFERENCE ROOM ADMINISTRATION BUILDING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000700050001-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 27
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 13, 2000
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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
9th Meeting
Thursday, 12 May 1955
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
IMPF
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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
9th Meeting
Thursday, 12 May 1955
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
Present
Harrison G. Reynolds
Director of Personnel
Chairman
Chief of Operations, DD/P
Alternate for DD/P, Member
Lyman. B. Kirkpatrick
Inspector General
Member
Director of Communications
Member
Deputy Director of Training
Alternate for DTR, Member
Lawrence K. White
Deputy Director (Support)
Member
Assistant to DD/I (Admin)
Alternate for DD/I, Member
Special Support Assistant to DD/S
Guest
Executive Secretary
Reporter
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GS-13, from the Office of Operations. Mr. Baird Mr.
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-44r CONFIDENTIAL.
. . The 9th meeting of the CIA Career Council convened at
4:o0 p.m., Thursday, 12 May 1955, in the DCI Conference Room, with Mr.
Harrison G. Reynolds presiding . .
MR. REYNOLDS: Gentlemen, this is Mr. from the Office of
Training. He is taking Matt's place today.
The minutes of the 8th meeting are attached to the agenda
for today. ilith the exception of three statements that I'd like to make--
is there anyone else who has any comments on these minutes? (No :response]
In regard to paragraph 3 of the minutes Z7wo Staff Studies
4_ on Honor Awards], the recommendation of this Council went forward to the
Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, and he has not transmitted them to
the Director because we believe he has not approved them. So there will
probably be a memorandum forthcoming, back to us, on that point. As you
know, Security gave us the ruling on that, so that is probably where it will
have to be referred.
/Referring to paragraph 4 of the minutes, I have discussed
with the Deputy Director of Support this question of classification and grade
structure, and a representative from my Office met with
and four of
his people on Tuesday. We cannot meet a deadline of the 15th. I would next
hope to have the two papers, one presented by my Office and one presented by
IL-Management Staffj, compared and put together, because we feel that
is adequate for this particular study.
to Mr.
In paragraph 9, the last paragraph of the minutes--in addition
I who was nominated for the War College, we also nominated
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Carey and I concurred he was the best available choice before we forwarded
this choice to the Deputy Director.
MR.
: This is for the Army War College. We had two slots
but had only nominated one candidate, and General Cabell asked that a second
candidate be found, if possible.
had been properly nominated and
properly considered by the Selection Committee under the chairmanship of Matt
Baird.
MR. REYNOLDS: If there are no further additions or corrections,
the minutes stand approved.
Item 2 on the agenda: Applications for the Harvard Advanced
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Management Program. There are two names attached here, but there is a
complication because the letter to the Harvard School must be in the office
of their business school on Monday morning, so that, whichever one of these
is approved, we would appreciate it if one of the Deputies would take this
up with the Director tomorrow so that we can get his oral concurrence.
MR. WHITE: Harry, I understand there is a complication here in
that Mr. I I is now in Europe on temporary duty. I don't know whose fault
it is, but he was not asked to make out these forms before he left a few
days ago. His name was presented by me practically six months agO and it
would seem too bad to have him lose out now, if he is selected.
of the Office of Training told me about this
and said that while there would be some complication, that shouldn't stand
in the way. Apparently the main problem would be to get him to name an
external reference.
MR. WHITE: He can name me.
But that can be worked out. It can be held over.
The main thing is to get the nomination in, and some of the papers.
,4 MR. REYNOLDS: Do you believe it would be perfectly in order to
send two names--a No. 1 and a No. 2--in the event that Harvard might take
two? They didn't say we could only send one.
MR.
: We don't have a quota from Harvard.
MR. REYNOLDS: We would like to submit both names, if that is
satisfactory to this Council.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would recommend they be submitted, with
as the No. 1, and
to
s job than to
Comptroller's Office.
as No. 2, because it would be much more useful
It would dol I a lot more good in the
is pretty much of a specialist in languages,
and he always will be. I would like to make that in the form of a:motion.
Second.
MR. REYNOLDS: It has been moved and seconded that Mt. be
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25X1A9a the No. 1 candidate and Mr.I , No. 2. Those in favor signify by
saying "aye". Contrary minded? Motion carried and it is so ordered.
May we ask that Mr.
monitor this thing, to make
sure that it goes out of the Office of Training?
MR. WHITE: If there is anything that I need to do personally to
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ensure that' [doesn't lose out by reason of not getting something in,
I'll be glad to do it.
Mr.
MR. It's between you vindicating Mr. 1 L7 and 25X1A9a
isn't it?
MR. k: I'm going to tell Mr.I I at the conclusion of 25X1A9a
this meeting what the nominations are. If somebody can get Mr. Dulles'
approval of these nominations tomorrow, then the letters can go forward
tomorrow. They have to arrive in Cambridge Monday.
4 MR. REYNOLDS: May we ask, then, they be delivered to Colonel
White so that he can get the approval of the Director?
: We will not be able to prepare the formal letters
MR.
for the Director.
MR. WHITE:
4- MR.
Does he have to sign the letters?
: No, just give his oral approval. Then the letters
will be signed by the Director of Training.
tonight.
MR. WHITE: I don't need any papers, then. I'll ask the Director
MR.
: I hope every effort will be made to get Harvard to
accept both of them, because it would be of great benefit to Mr.
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MRJI. my understanding is that there is no quote. They
may take two or they may take none. The individual is pretty much standing
on his own feet. Apparently the usual procedure has been to take one.
MR. You mean Harvard screens the fellow?
MR. : That is right. Harvard reserves the right to reject
anybody. That is why the papers are necessary, because the Harvard Selection
Committee meets on Monday and the papers are necessary for them to make their
selection.
MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one statement.
Back at some meeting in about November of last year I thought we passed a
resolution that we would meet in January of this year and select the
candidates to the Defense colleges and the Harvard Business School, and des-
pite that resolution we still find ourselves right here right up against
the wire. Now I have known since the first of January that Mr.
was my 25X1A9a
candidate to go to this thing. I don't know who is falling down whether
we, the Council or the Office of Training or the Office of Personnel, but I
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just don't see any excuse for us getting up against this kind of a deadline,
especially in the face of -a resolution whiph was passed, I think,, about the
first of December, that these selections would be made in January.
m.
It was on 21 December when the Council met. At that
time the papers had already gone out. There is a Regulation LI land
LT which establishes the method of selection. So until that Regu-
lation is changed, the Office of Training say they could not change the
procedure--the papers having already left the OTR at that time; the papers
inviting persons to apply for the Advanced Management Course at Harvard had
gone out. Now the procedure, as I understand it, according to this Regu-
lation, is that anybody in the Agency who wishes to apply will be considered.
That is what the Regulation says.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That isn't pertinent to the issue.
MR. WHITE: Furthermore, we make these Regulations and we can
charge them, and I don't see any call, after making a stand on the 1st of
January, that we can't do anything different because a paper has gone out.
There is no excuse for putting the Director in this position. He may not
ebe able to see me between now and tomorrow morning.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And he wouldn't be inclined, perhaps to approve
it on this short notice.
MR. WHITE: We have a man overseas on a 3-week temporary duty
whose chances might be jeopardized by this.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Why isn't the practical thing to do, Red, now
that we are grasping with this problem, to circulate in September
the fact
that we want candidates to these schools, and consider them the latter part
of the year, getting them well wrapped up before we move into the new year,
so that everybody can plan assignments.
MR. WHITE: We have another course coming up in September.
: There are two of these a year.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It's a shock to me that an Agency with
people can come up with only two candidates for a school as valuable to a
growing boy as this would be. It would seem the management people would
be flocking to apply for this course..
MR.I They are not made available by their supervisors,
I guess.
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MR. KUNPATRICK: Let's not go into that..
MR. WHITE: Before we leave this, isn't it appropriate to discuss
now when we have to have the next nomination in?
MR. REYNOLDS: May I make the suggestion that we find out whose
fault it was and see that it does not occur again, and monitor it from the
viewpoint of the Office of Personnel?
MR. WHITE: Al]. right. That particular resolution has gone by
the Board, and I don't know when we are going to select the others, but it
should be well in advance. A man should know, for his personal planning, a
couple of months ahead of time.
MR.
I don't know what the story is.
MR. REYNOLDS: We will take the responsibility in the future, in
the Office of Personnel.
MR.
The Office of Training has the responsibility. I
think Matt Baird could explain the reasons for this--that the deadline had
already been set for receiving these applications in the papers which had al-
ready gone out before the Council suggested this be done.
MR. REYNOLDS: Then I'll needle Matt.
MR. WHITE: And I'll needle both of you.
MR. REYNOLDS: Item 3 on the agenda [-Revision of Regulation
The CIA Career Council and the Career Servicesl is self-explanatory. These
provisions of
were approved by representatives of the three major
components in accordance with the discussion held by this Council on the
31st of March.
MR. : The changes in the text are really technical changes
to permit the changes in the Panel and Board designations Cas shown in the
Attachment A.1. With respect to the Clandestine Services that is .1ready
in effect and has been since the 1st of February. So there is no issue in
the "D" Service.
MR. WHITE: We see no problem as far as the DD/S is concerned.
Cmr
also concurred for the DD/I.1
MR. There is a technical point which we might consider
very briefly, and that is a date which is appropriate for the change, because
every Service Designation in the Agency will be changed. I don't know what
that date is but I think from a technical point of view it should be set so
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there would be the least possible confusion. It may be that 1 July would be
the best date so as not to foul up our year-end statistics and all that
sort of thing - I don't know. I suggest the Council leave the fixation of
the date on which the change becomes effective to technical consideration
fin the Office of Personne1.7, if that is appropriate.
MR. REYNOLDS: Is there a motion this revision is approved?
So move.
MR.
: Second.
MR. REYNOLDS: Those in favor, please say "aye". Contrary minded?
Kotion carried, and so ordered.
"' Item 4 ("the CIA Welfare Assistance Boardj is an oral report
by myself. A meeting of the CIA Welfare Assistance Board, which was ordered
by this Council--an organization meeting was held on the 6th of may. Present--
)gyself?I 'from DD/S.
There were alternates named for all of these persons, and my Deputy-
who has not yet arrived--is named as an alternate for me, but I will appoint
my Executive Officer, as my alternate pro tem until
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In connection with this Item 4, I have your memorandum, Red,
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and I have just reported that an alternate has been named in place of pX1A9a
MR.I Is there anything on the other Board, Kirk?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: No. The lawyers are redrawing the charter,
and when that is drawn up and ready to go why I think we can talk about it,
because we have planned that this Council will be the internal governing
group, and then we will add three or four external members that we had be-
fore, which will give proper balance, and, also, we will be able to operate
without having the external people in. After that is done then I think the
first step is to go on and raise some money so we can have a revolving fund
of $10 or $15 thousand dollars
MR. REYNOLDS: We would like very much to have the money back as
soon as you have some available, because we haven't much of a margin to
operate on.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think it would be ideal to have one as a grant
organization and the other a loan organization.
MR.I I: If a loan from the Welfare Assistance Board can't
be repaid, then the other Board can refund the money to the Welfare Assistance
Board, or something of that sort.
MR. REYNOLDS: No further questions on that? (No responsej
We will go on to Item 5 (Staff Study on Processing Career
Staff Applications of Resigneesj, which we believe is self-explanatory,
and if it isn't Mr.' Iwill give you the dope on it.
I'd like to report that there are 75 cases of applications
for the Career Staff which have been Suspended by the Selection Board because
there have been no evaluations on the persons concerned for the last two
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MR.1 I: In some cases--I think three--there are no evaluations
since 19510 and the Examining Panels finally revolted and said, approximately:
"How can we be expected to evaluate performance and suitability when there
is nothing in the record to indicate what it has been?" So several panels
came to that conclusion and asked the Selection Board for this authority, and
the Selection Board then authorized me to suspend cases until current evalu-
ations are available. When they are available they will go right back into
the stream of consideration by the Examining Panel.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I do want to raise some questions on this
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particular subject, Barry. I was looking at the agenda, and those last
two items probably will not take much time, and I'd like to talk about this
while Dick is still here, because it's the whole philosophy of the screening
of career applicants. My feeling on it is this: It seems to me that after
a career applicant has been approved by his parent Career Service Board and
forwarded to the Selection Panel, that it is incorrect for the offices of
record in the Agency to take any action on that which would do other than
to return it to the parent Career Service Board. What I mean by that is
this. In the first lists L71-152 that we screened there were certain in-
dividuals that we had information about. My initial inclination was to tell
the Selection Board what our information. was. Upon more thorough considera-
tion I decided that was incorrect, because I think if there is information
in the IG's files on an individual, if the information is of sufficient
seriousness it would be with that individual parent office, too, and they
should be the ones that would take any action that might change that in-
dividual from an "A" applicant to a "B" or a "C", not ourselves by going to
a Selection Panel. I venture that I think the same thing applies to any-
thing from the Security, Medical, Comptroller or any other office in the
Agency--because it seems to me that we are running a case here of double
jeopardy, if it is done otherwise; that if the parent office doesn't have
sufficient information in its files, based on Security, Medical) or anything
else, to review the individual and say he is not ready for it yet and we're
going to put him in a "C" status--for my Staff or any other Staff to be-
come the selection basis, is wrong. That is why I said we are not going to
send anymore memorandums or send any more representatives to the Selection
Panels. We did it once, but after carefully considering it I believe that
is through.
Also, I brought to Colonel White's attention that the
Comptroller started to use the Selection Panel as a basis for collecting
money, and I took a very dim view of that, because if the Comptroller can't
collect his own money through straight command discipline there is something
very wrong with the Agency, and the minute we start getting career service
mixed into this, we are going to destroy it.
We asked the Comptroller and he agreed at
the last meeting of the Selection Board that he would notify the Heads of the
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Career Services of delinquencies.
MR.
? He has been doing that.
It had been going to the Admin Officer, but
he agreed to send that information to the Head of the Office. I agree with
you entirely that the Head of the Career Service should know these things.
The last item on here is "career planning", and how can you plan 4 career
if you have something hidden on a man?
MR.
: That is, of course, what the Panels are, in fact,
and the Selection Board, doing, Kirk. This information Which for One reason
or another--I don't know--has not been available or not been considered by
a Career Service, is weighed by an Examining Panel. A decision is made by
the Selection Board and the Selection Board refers it back to the Head of
the Career Service. That is in fact what happens.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: To take whatever action the Head of the Career
Service wants to take, because if he wants to send it back up again., regard-
less of adverse information in the file, he has that privilege.
MR.
: That is exactly the procedure that is followed.
MR.
But if he doesn't know about it--
: I don't know how you get it back to him unless a
Panel considers whether it should go back to him or not.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: When I get these lists, or Edwards or Saunders
gets these lists on individuals, then is the time it should go to the Head
of the Career Service, if the information is of sufficient importande.
MR.
: I don't know what the Selection Board would do with
the case unless it knew what information was being referred back. The Head
of the Career Service has made his recommendation.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The point I am getting at is that these lists
or the information as to the applicants who are eligible, should get back
to the Career Service Boards before these lists come out of the Boards. We
are looking at these too late. That is the point I am making.
? The Examining Panel and the Selection Board Machinery
MR.
exists for the purpose of referring just these cases back to the Career
Services. The Career Service thea considers this information and modifies
its previous recommendation.
But that means a lot more people know about
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derogatory information.
MR.
: It means three more people know?the members of the
Board and Panel of Examiners who are weighing whether or not this: should
go back to the Heads of Career Services.
left the meeting ? ?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But the IScR Staff is an internal ro/p Staff.
MR. WHITE: This is a problem.
: Under your system there would be no point in having
MR.
an Examining Panel.
MR. WRITE: What you are shooting at is make sure the Career
Service Board uses the same criteria that is going to be used by the Panel.
Now, the other side of the coin is--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't think we should use this mechanism to
clean pp our records, which is what it is doing, because the Selection Board
gets in and says, "They apparently didn't see this."
MR. WRITE: But there is a problem there, and I am thinking par-
ticularly of security, as to whether the Agency wants?these Career Service
Boards are composed of an awful lot of people?and whether you want the
Security Office, for example, opening up their files, so to speak, to that
many people.
MR. 4IRKPATRICK: I don't say that.
: As Head of the Career Service I want to
know it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I say this, Red--say we go down the list and
we see "X" here--Edwards sees "X" on the list. What I think Edwards anelt
to do is what I would do under similar circumstances, I would call General
land I'd say, "I see Mr. X on the list. Do you recall we had
this problem?" Or, on the contrary, I would say, "You do not know the
following information, which is here, because it was never deemed of impor-
tance before." Now, actually, there are no such cases--
MR.
: What actually happens with respect to Security is
that the Security Office calls and says, "Will you please suspend action
on this case until we give you a green light?" No information is provided
to the Panel, and the case is handled by Security to their satisfaction, and
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then afterwards it goes before the Panel. Security prefers that to divulging
the fact that there is a security problem, let's say on Joe Doakps, to an
Office Career Board, because not even the Panel of Examiners knoWs there is
4 problem. And Security has now said, "In addition to this we will go to
the Head of the Career Service, but we don't want the fact that there is a
security investigation about Joe Doakes, being conducted internally, to be
available in that office."
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Rud, what would be wrong--you are in list 25 now
and there are about
MR.
on the list--
There are
MR. KIRKPATRICK (Continuing): --what is wrong with taking the
,and
balance of the people now eligible ,1
sending one blanket list to the office of record, and as more people become
eligible circulating those lists simultaneously with notifying the indigenous
Career Service they are eligible?
MR.
: Security can only handle so many a week. This is
established on a flow of 125 to 160 a week.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What I an trying to do is to give the offices
of record a chance to advise the Heads of the Career Services, depending on
whether it's a serious matter or not, that they have information which
should be considered in SE Division or in OCD, in selecting an individual
to come up, so that they hit the offices of record before rather than after.
MR.
If you do that then you can eliminate the Panel of
Examiners. That strikes at a very basic principle which was established
when this whole Career Staff process was set up.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But we are learning about this by experience.
MR.
: You will have no assurance that uniform criteria
is being uniformly applied, and that is what the Panel of Examiners does.
That is the only way in which uniformity can be brought about, and that is
why it was established that way. Every case is considered on an Agency-wide
basis, and there is a representative of each of the Career Services, depending
on the list--if Logistics, Security and IF are on the list of the Panel,
there is an examiner from each of those three services--three persons?and
those persons examine the list. For example, here is a list of 160 people -
"A" cases. Now the three examiners, from Security, IP and Logistics,, who
are sitting on the Panel that considers that list, and there are only people
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from those services on the list--will say, "Here is Joe Doakes on whom I
have some information I wish to bring to the Panel for the other Members
to discuss. This is a problem I don't know what to do about." So from that
basic list of 160 people we will subtract Joe Doakes. Then the seven offices
of record--Security, Personnel, IG, MR Staff, Training, Medical Staff and
Comptroller?will have said, "We have information on these seven guys." So
there are seven more subtracted from the list. my Staff will have reviewed
the Personnel Folder of every person on that list. Two analysts :independ-
ently of each other, go through the Folder page by page. The reason we do
it is that the File Room is adjacent to our office, and we can get the file
out, review it and put it right back again. If each Career Service were
looking through the Folders and had those files out, business in the Person-
nel Office would grind to a complete stop, and you couldn't operate the
Agency.
So, say I have 25 cases on which there is material in the
Folders which has a bearing on the three criteria which have been Set up:
personal conduct, intent and job performance. It's on the basis of a poor
evaluation, on the basis of excessive leave--the criteria are in this "bible"
which goes to each examiner a week before he meets. This check list is used
by the analysts on my Staff, which includes Cheadingj:
"Unfavorable Fitness Reports?
Unfavorable Personnel Evaluation Reports?
Unfavorable Efficiency Ratings?
Unfavorable Status and Efficiency Reports?
Unfavorable '7-point Evaluations'?
Unfavorable Training Evaluations?
Debt letters?
Reprimands?
Documents in Confidential Envelope?
Evidence of Security Violations?
Referral to Employee Review Board or Reassignment Board?
Disqualifying evidence in terms of Selection Board Criteria?
Job Performance
Personal conduct
Training record
Intent
Inconsistency"
Those are the things which my Staff, on the basis of this
check list, culls, screens, discovers, surfaces from the Personnel Folder.
If everything is checked "NO"--independently by two analysts--I say that
is a straight "A" case, and there is nothing to bring to the Panel. If
there is as much as one check in the "YES" collumn, I personally decide
whether or not it is significant enough to discuss before the three members
of the Panel.
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awioc-ter".
So every case in this 25 which is brought to the Panel is
done by me personally reviewing the file on the basis of a review: made by
Analysts according to very tight criteria and ground rules that were set
up. We then subtract 33 cases Cl plus 7 plus 251 from the 160 and there
are 127 straight "A" cases. I assure the Panel of Examiners that the seven
offices of record and the two Analysts working independently on my Staff
have no information of any sort whatsoever which wOuld indicate that these
127 are unsuitable for membership in the Career Staff. The Panel then
starts with a "straight A list" of 127, and we proceed case by case discussing
these 33 which have been earmarked from a list of 160--case by case, and
presenting the information to the Panel to "restore to the straight A lists"
those on which the Panel thinks the information is inconsequential or is not
pertinent to the question of suitability. We then end up, usually-the
Selection Board is going to meet next week and the agenda is being prepared--
I can't remember the exact figures off-hand, but the average would be, out
of 160 cases, 25 of these having been restored to the straight A list, making
150 "straight A," cases, and there are 10 there which the Panel believes the
Selection Board should know about. Now of these 10 let's say 5 will be
what we call "Special A cases"; that is, the Panel recommends that the in-
dividual be admitted into the Career Staff but believes that the Selection
Board should be acquainted with the following facts. That is called "a
special A case". And in each case the Selection Board makes that decision.
There are 5 left out of our 160. The record shows that the Selection Board
has reduced I think it is approximately 50 "A" cases to "B" or "C" Status,
B or C category, on the basis of the information which has been brought to
the surface through this mechanism. Now of those 5 let's say 4 of them
would be "e cases which the Board believes should be deferred--be given
"B" status-1
was one of them, and the rest of you know various other
cases. And one would be a "C" case, and there have been some quite obvious
cases, at least they were obvious to the Selection Board, I gather, because
by the discussion of the Selection Board there was no question but that
this person should not be given status even though somehow or other they
went through the Career Board with a straight "A" recommendation. I don't
know of any other process of getting this back :to the Career Board.
Now when the Selection Board makes the decision the actual
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finding on which the Selection Board took the decision is sent to the Head
of the Career Service, together with a memorandum requesting the Head of
the Career Service to carry out the instruction of the Regulation
which is this [heading.]: "If an individual applies for membership in the
Career Staff and is not accepted, he will be informed of the reasons for
the rejection and given assistance and guidance in order to correct or
eliminate the causes of his rejection, and to have an opportunitrto demon-
strate his suitability for future application and selection into the Career
Staff." The Head of the Career Service then is given all the information
that the Selection Board had, and is asked to tell the individual ',why the
Selection Board has put him in this deferred or denied status, and is re-
quested to carry out the instruction of the Regulation, which is to guide
and assist the man so that he can "get himself out of purgatory and become
a member ofthe Career Staff by repairing or eliminating the disability
which caused his deferral or denial."
Yes, but my feelings are ruffled if this
happens, and I say, "Why didn't I know about this information that the IG
knows or Security has, etc., before I put my stamp of Approval on it?"
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You are subverting your command.
So I think as soon as your list of eligibles
go out, then the IG, if he has something on somebody, should tell me.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think the Selection Board system andthe Panel
examination system is fine for reviewing the files and ensuring standardi-
zation across the Agency, but that is all, but I think if they get into
this business of having the punitive offices in the Agency, like Security
and my Staff, andi Staff, get into the act ex post facto, after
selection by the command Career Services, then we are putting the employees
in double jeopardy, and we are actually subverting the whole Career Service
system, because I don't think any Examining Panel, unless a Panel convened
by the Director, and the Employment Review Board, has the right to go over
that material and, in effect, make a second decision concerning the,in-
dividual.
MR. : The decision they are rmiking has never been con-
sidered before.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: By the command echelon, Rud--that is the point
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I am trying to get across--and the Career Service Boards should not lessen
the command authorities of the Heads of the Career Services.
If the Head of the Office knows these
derogatory things he has to make a decision and stand by that decision.
Here is a case in point. I had a man who had to resign because he got into
a drunken brawl. It was a one-time thing. So when I brought him back I
said, "I have to do this because this was a sensitive area, but I will go
to bat for you if you go to NSA and want to get a job." Well, Seturity
said, "Maybe you don't want to do that, because there is a record of
drunkenness."
system.
MR.
: There is nothing I can do about that, you see.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But there is something we can do about the
MR. 1.: You cannot change a system in midstream, because
there have been
people who have been subjected to this process (and
Applications have been received by the Selection Board with the
recommendation of the Head of the Career Servicej.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't think because we have made an error
to start with, we have to keep on compounding the error, because I will
tell you right now the IG will not tell the Examining Panels any information
about any employee. We will tell the command echelon, but we Will1 not re-
view the files again, because I don't want employees or offices to feel
that items dealt with the IG in confidence, are being spread out across
the Selection Board and the Examining Panel. And, furthermore,[ should
not be reviewing cases, because he in effect is reviewing his boss
When an individual is selected by the DD/P Selection Board and then
reviews it later--he is an internal DD/P organization, and he should not
be reviewing after it has been selected by the DD/P Selection Board--he
should be doing it beforehand.
decision.
MR. I: I agree with absolutely everything you say, Kirk.
I am not the advocate of this and I did not set up the procedure. You agreed
to do this, and so di
Wrong.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But after careful consideration I think it is
MR.
: Let me make this point: the machinery of the Career
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Boards is completely inadequate to do this job, and they don't do it. The
record shows they don't do it, and whether it is going to be done or not,
I don't know.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Then we better get the Career Boards straightened
out. I think the Commo Board is adequate, for example.
: These things that are derogatory I don't
want my Career Board to know unless I tell them, but if it's something really
derogatory, then I want to know about it, and I will take care of it with
the individual.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And the same thing applies as far as the individual
owing the Agency money. The Comptroller should tell the Head of the Career
Service, and it should never come up before a Selection Board, because that
perverts even our confidential funds system.
MR.
Do you believe any information which is found in the
review of his Personnel Folder should go back to the Head of the Career
Service before it comes before the Selection Board?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't feel competent to comment on that, be-
cause some files I have seen have everything in them and some have
nothing
in them, and until the Office of Personnel has had an opportunity to get
everything in the File, and the files are divided into a higWy confidential
section--
I think the things you have in the Official
Files are in my files, and they are available to my supervisors, if we
haven't slipped up someplace. If you get a letter about a man being in
debt more than once or twice, it comes over to me and gets into the files.
These things that the IG and Security have, don't get into their files--not
necessarily?but I am satisfied that I have all the information that is
in the Personnel Office files, and is taken into consideration.
MR.
, I believe you do, but nobody
else in the Agency does, because we have an "A" case right now with a
stack of debt letters that high [-indicating heap of letteraj, and the
Head of the Career Service recommended that he be a member of the Career
Staff. That is why I am saying the Panel of Examiners and my Staff, are
doing the Heads of the Career Services a service by doing this.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I am not criticizing the work you are doing,
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I am criticizing the system, which I think is wrong, and I think Red and
the rest of us should get the system straightened out right now before we
destroy Career Service, which we are going to do, because some of: the
employees have already reacted adversely to some of these--
I am satisfied with the Panel of xaminers
because they are looking across the board and hoping that each of the
Career Services are using the same standards. But I want to know the deroga-
tory things before I sign my name.
MR. ] If we find something derogatory we can ge
you before it goes to the Panel of Examiners.
DR.
: That is exactly the point.
it to
MR. REYNOLDS: The reason for the existence of this Council is to
direct us. Then this Council, therefore, directs the Office of Personnel,
who administers this thing, to submit derogatory information to the Head of
the Career Service?
MR. : Then once a week I will have 25 memoranda to write.
MR. WHITE: I appreciate the principle absolutely, and I am for
it. As a command principle it is sound. I don't know exactly where we
stand on security. I would like to look into this a little more. I don't
know. Maybe the Selection Board itself could give us some advice as to how
we can best solve this thing. I am a little worried, frankly--you talk
about the confidential aspects of certain information in the IG's files
thesecurity files are full of information which has been obtained in the
most confidential manner, with complete assurance to the people they obtained
it from that it would be protected. Now, with all due respect to the Heads
of our Career Services, if you start opening that up, you've got to make
very sure that it is going to be protected, because if the Head of the
Career Service has to explain that to his own Career Board, and so: forth,
it's going to be only a short time until you have a few hundred peOple in
this Agency who know what is in the Security files.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I disagree with you right there, because I don't
think the Head of any Career Service in this Agency, I hope, who doesn't
feel man enough to say to his Career Service Board, "I am withdrawing certain
information which I am not passing on to you, that warrants my putting him
in A, B or C category"--1 don't think the Boards themselves would feel
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offended, if they respect the Head of their Career Service, for so doing.
MR. WHITE: What we are really suggesting here is that we change
the system so that we now provide the Heads of Career Services the same
thing that is being provided to the Panels or to the Selection Board, the
same set of facts. As a matter of principle, I like that.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And leave up to Edwards' judgment what he wants
to provide.
MR. WHITE: But if that is going to be done--I am not prepared to
vote for that this afternoon--if that is going to be done I think some very
iron-clad rules have to be laid down as to what the Head of that Career
Service can do with the information which he receives.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I feel this way, Red, that recognizing that Rud
has a system going here, and that we all are anxious to get these applications
processed as quickly as possible?however, the fact does remain that 1 July
last year was the opening date. We started moving in August. Here it is
I May and we have 1,406 processed. I don't think we are going to hurt any-
thing by slowing up for a week or two and getting it adjusted. I think it
is important that we do. Because, as I say, we have had a couple of cases
questioned about debts, and they bounced and bounced hard.
I'd like to ask Colonel White: You agree
that if the information that Security has can be given to a Panel of Examiners,
that it certainly could be given to the Head of the Career Service, and I
think it should be given to him first so that the Panel of Examiners don't
know about it.
25X1A9a MR. We are talking about a highly specialized Case when
25X1A9a
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we are talking about security. Security does not come in and give the Panel
of Examiners a lot of information. Security says to me, and I don't tell
the Panel or anybody?they say to me, because I schedule these cases,
you please suspend the case of Joe Doakes for six months", and I see it
doesn't come before the Panel of Examiners.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The Career Service should be doing that and not
you.
MR.
Security say they are not prepared yet to surface
this problem in the operating component, because they may be conducting an
Investigation right on the spot with respect to that person.
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...sinker"
I should know when he prepares an
gation, even if he doesn't tell me why.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is all we are asking.
MR. WHITb: I don't think we have any problem, but I do
investi-
think we
would be ill advised to pass a resolution this afternoon without having the.
Security people state their views on this thing.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, I think now that I have precipitated the
issue, that the Career Council ought to meet several times immediately, and
get the thing straightened out.
MR. REYNOLDS: I think we should have Edwards or here. 25X1A9a
MR. I have been trying to have people come to the Panel
of Examiners to see what the actual procedure is at the Panel of Examiners.
I have talked to my members, and I am entirely
satisfied with the way they are doing it. I think they are doing a good job.
But the Panel of Examiners shouldn't have it until I have set up all the in-
formation I can get.
MR.
: One thing we are coming to is should there be a
Panel of Examiners at all, if all of this is done, and if the Agency is going
to rely exclusively on the opinion of the Head of the Career Service, then
you don't need the Panel of Examiners.
MR. WHITE: Oh yes, you do. What we are saying are two things: we
would like to ensure the Head of the Career Service has the same set of facts
on which to base his judgment, that the Panel does; the Panel function, then,
becomes one of seeing that it is uniform and standardized.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: , I think that is fine. That is what the concept
of the Panels originally was.
MR. I: By a slight modification of our present procedure--
we have a list of 160 people and there are a total of 35 names which should
be examined or discussed by somebody- I can refer those 35 names and the
facts about them to the Heads of the Career Services. That leaves the Panel
of Examiners with 125 straight "A" cases, and you don't need a Panel of
Examiners, who are GS-15's and 16's, to come to my office and act On it,
because there is nothing for them to do except to confirm the fact that I say
there is nothing untoward in the record at all which needs any discussion.
25X1A9a MR.
I think you missed the point. They will still get
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the 35 cases but they will get them after the Head of the Career Service has
reviewed the facts.
MR.
Will they get the same facts?
MR. KIRKPATRICK:
instances, if
In certain instances they will; but in other
had been told Security has a question on
won't be sent up. It
the man, they won't even get that man because his name
will cut down on the work, actually.
I think I have to send it up, but with a
recommendation that it be deferred.
MR.
B and C case to insure
Service.
MR.
The Panel of Examiners would review in detail every
that uniform criteria was being used?
: And they may disagree with the Head of the Career
But I might have it in for this guy, and the
Panel of Examiners should see whether I was wrong in holding it back.
MR.
Well, the Panel of Examiners has changed some--
Selection Board--
MR .
Unless he happens to be a member of the
Then it goes back to him and he can appeal or argue it.
I think this is all right the way it is work-
ing but I think from now on out the Head of the staff or component Should
have whatever is necessary for him to make pp his mind as to what recom-
mendation he is going to make.
MR
: There is one other point to think of here. Your
representative [-indicating
Vis always at the Panel of
Examiners that discusses it. Now the question is, is that adequateor not?
In other words, L, who is an Examiner, is at the Panel of Examiners.
Do we gain very much by going through a lot of papers?--because there would
be a tremendous amount of papers. There are going to be 25 memoranda a week
to write, and there will be quite a lot of material to write on each one.
Are we going to gain by sending that to you, or willi 4 who is
your representative who was nominated by you to do this job on behalf of the
Communications Career Service, going to be adequate to represent you on the
Panel?
But he never knows who he is going to examine
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before he gets there.
MR. 1: Oh, yes he does. He has a complete list before he
comes. Every Examiner gets this book [indicating], together with a list
of 160 people--or whatever the list is--that are going to be considered at
that meeting. I brief each Examiner. So Mr.
in your own Career Service.
looks over the people
I'll change the procedure, then. They will
come to me, then. This is only until you have caught up. Because they
have gone by. And the Comptroller coming up with financial delinquencie--
that was after the fact. We didn't know about that in the beginning. I
don't care about a man who is technically delinquent in his accounts, but I
am interested in the man who has a pattern of delinquency.
This is one that is going to take a lot of batting around, to
be sure we don't slip up on something. I'd like to talk to the people who
are on these Panels, too. FE
MR. REYNOLDS: May we leave it that each component will discuss this
with the Head of the Career Service person or persons, and we will
meeting next week on this?
MR.
The Selection Board meets next Friday.
have a
MR. REYNOLDS: I think we should have a meeting of this Board be-
fore that and discuss this matter. Try to schedule a meeting for next
Thursday on this one point.
MR.
Would you like to have any Examiners come?
No. I think this is something for guidance
think we want Security to be here.
: Should the other members of the Selection Board be
for them. But I
25X1A9a MR.
present?
MR. WHITE: Security and Medical. I think that's all.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think both Edwards and Tietjen would feel
exactly as I feel.
MR. WHITE: I don't think there is any problem. I just want
assurance they don't have to reveal this to the whole Board.
MR. REYNOLDS: I know Sheff and
feel that way because
I have talked to them about it. If that is satisfactory, then, to all
present, we will have a meeting next Thursday at 4:00 o'clock and consider
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this matter alone; and present will be either Colonel Edwards and/or
man, and Tietjen of the Medical Staff.
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MR.
of the Selection Board?
25X1A9a
May I ask this point: what about the other members
I&R ought to be here. I&R is a DD/P man,
that is true, but when they go out they also inspect my people, which I am
glad to have them do. Shouldn't they be present? Because presently I&R
give information to you or to the Panel of Examiners.
MR. REYNOLDS: I think that question could be better answered by
the Inspector General.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I will talk to about it, because
25X1A9a
this is something between myself and the DD/P.
MR. REYNOLDS: I don't think other members of the Selection Board
need to be here because they are adequately represented here by the components.
There are people from Gene's office, and people from the DD/P--either Dick
or represent those two men. I think we're all right on it.
Now, the last item, Item 6 on the agenda, we can defer or we
can discuss it now. I would like to point out to all members of the Council
that the twelve Career Services have forwarded their quarterly reports, as
the Council directed at its meeting in October. These reports describe the
activities of the Career Boards and the major policy questions that they
have been considering, and the results they have achieved in the period 1
January through 31 March. These reports are available to the members of the
Career Council, and, if desired, can be distributed to the Heads of the
Career Services; or they can be duplicated, if desired, for simultaneous
distribution to the Career Services and the Council. A study and analysis
of these reports may help to answer some of the questions the Inspector
General raised in paragraph 3 of his memorandum. This is the master book
which contains all these reports from the Career Services. It is not quite
complete but will be by Tuesday of next week.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would like to ask that this memorandum of
-i? mine, having served its purpose, that it be destroyed. You can see from this
that I think our whole career program is going to stand or fall on the
attention the individual offices give to their Career Boards. And, as we
point out, there are a couple of very good Boards here, and several others
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that leave something to be desired.
I concur in your recommendation. I only have
one comment on this "monitor individuals". I can't monitor individuals until
they get up pretty high. I can monitor categories of individuals, such as
I lump career patterns: radio operators, supervisors, operations officer--
they are all in one lump, and I can monitor their movement within that
family of specialists. But to take one radio operator and plan his career
from now on out, I just can't do it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think you are absolutely right. I think your
lower echelons--by patterns. I would say it would be five years before the
Agency gets into really sound planning across the board.
25X1A9a
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MR.
: The Office of Training has 300 career develOpment
plans in detail, on paper, reviewed and approved; and another 200 will be
done within the next two months, I believe.
MR.
MR.
By the end of the year.
Kirk, I feel that we are making progress. It's not
spectacular, but there's a lot that has been done which isn't evident here.
Take in OCI, we have now interviewed everyone there, either by the Super-
visor or somebody in the command channel, and we have plans on over 80
people. But the workload, the judgment and arrangement that each plan takes,
is very time-consuming, and it's going to take a long time because it will
affect a large percentage of employees in their day-to-day operations. We
are spending a lot of time on what is the best way to go after career
plAnning. Should everyone have a detailed plan? There are problems like
that. We welcome guidance from Personnel and so on.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think with all our surveys some offices are
pulling up their socks pretty drastically. But it is tragic to see other-
wise a good program faltering because of the lack of attention by the Head
of the Career Service.
MR.
Again, Kirk, we have had nine months to get going.
We thought first we had to get the basic fundamentals in line. That has
taken time. 'We had to assure equitable treatment in promotions, abetter
handling of training requests, a better handling of Fitness Reports. Those
are basic fundamentals that we, frankly, spent our time on first, and now
we're moving into the career planning. All of this is basic to career
planning.
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I don't believe the head of the component
or his deputy should be Chairman of the Career Service Board. I think
our senior people should do it. But I keep the same ones on for six months
and they are advisory to me. If I am there people talk very differently,
and my Board really gives them a rough time. If a Division Chief copes in
and says, "I want this one"--he really has to shell out and prove it, but
if I am there he talks differently.
MR. WHITE: Kirk, I had planned for certain parts of this Memoran-
dum to be extracted and sent to my people.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't object to that.
. . . Off the record . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Rud, would you take care that no copies of this
memo are floating around the Office of Personnel?
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25X1A9a
MR. I I: There were 14 of these made.
MR. REYNOLDS: Any further questions?
MR..1 Kirk, do you have any words of wisdom on career
planning? Certainly we don't plan to have a detailed career plan on all
people. ?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What I would like to see this Agency reach, Gene--
and this goes right across the board--is some stage, whether we bring them
in at the JOT level, the junior echelons or senior echelons, before that
employee ever steps through the portal of this Agency we will have 4 pro-
gram worked out: Mr. Smith is coming on; his specialty is thus; his first
year will be spent-6 months in the Office of Training, taking the follow-
ing courses; thereupon he will go to such and such a desk and serve there
for one year; following that he will get another training course; then he
will go on an overseas tour; on his return from overseas he will probably
be eligible for consideration in taking over a section or a branch. So
that when somebody enters the Agency three, four or five years are all
worked out. I envisage the Selection Board then getting to the stage where
they are reviewing newcomers coming into the Agency, and periodically re-
viewing those eligible for promotion, either specialists or in the general
field, and selecting people for the Executive Inventory. When we get to
that stage we will really be having a Career Service.
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MR.
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? There is one other aspect we have been working on,
and that is we are putting emphasis on operational requirements. Where do
we want to be four or five years from now? And then look at career plans
in light of that, so that we can direct our training, and so on, into our
needs.
MR. REYNOLDS: Any further business, gentlemen? If not, the
meeting is adjourned.
. . The meeting adjourned at 5:10 p m
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