CIA CAREER COUNCIL 14TH MEETING THURSDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 1955 DCI CONFERENCE ROOM ADMINISTRATION BUILDING

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• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000700080007-4
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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
11th Meeting
Thursday, 10 November 1955
DCI Conference Room
Administration Building
Harrison G. Reynolds
Director of Personnel
Chairman
25X1A9a COP/DD/P
Alternate for DD/P, Member
25X1A9a
Lyman B. Kirkpatrick
Inspector General
Member
rector of Communications
Member
25X1A9a
Deputy Director of Training
Alternate for D/TR, Member
25X1A9a
SA/DD/I
Alternate for DD/I, Member
Lawrence K. White
Deputy Director (Support)
Member
25X1A9a
xecutive Secretary
25X1A9a
Reporter
25X1A9a
Office of Personnel
Acting Comptroller
/OCR
SSA/Pers
ief, Management staff
ement Staff
Deputy Director of Personnel
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Agenda
Item Subject Page
No.
1 Approval of Minutes of 13th Meeting . . . . 1
2 10 Nov 55 Draft of Staff Study on "Revised
Personnel Promotion and Assignment
Policies" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
25X1A
3 10 Nov 5 Dr t of Proposed Regulation
No. "Tables of Organization". . 10
4 7 Nov 55 Draft of Proposed Notice
"Table of Organization - Staff Ceiling" 17
Invitation to attend Society for Personnel
Administration Career Service Award
Party, 2 December 1955. . . . . . . . . 17
6 Adjournment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
25X1A
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. . ? The 14th meeting of the CIA Career Council convened at
4:00 p.m., Thursday, 10 November 1955, in the DCI Conference Room, Admini-
stration Building, with Mr. Harrison 0. Reynolds presiding . . .
MR. REYNOLDS: The meeting will please come to order. The minutes
of the 13th meeting are attached to the agenda for this meeting, for your
approval.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I move they be approved.
. . . Motion was then seconded and passed approving the minutes
of the 13th meeting of the CIA Career Council . .
MR. REYNOLDS: We will now proceed to the main business of this
meeting. It is my understanding that Colonel White, the Deputy Director of
Support, will present these two papers.
COLONEL WHITE: I'll talk about the two papers a little bit and
25X1A9a then I'll ask Harry CReynoids} and to help me, and there are
some other people here from the Personnel Office and the Management Staff who,
we hope, can answer whatever questions may be raised. These two papers have
been worked on for a long time, to try to meet two problems: first, to
provide a promotion and assignment policy which would eliminate the 1% "Black
Duck," as we have referred to it in the past, and really provide a promotion
and assignment policy which is responsive to the needs for flexibility that
we have been running into and couldn't solve for so long. The first paper
deals with that problem. The second paper, which I will ask John to go into
with you, is a scheme which is proposed to develop a better manpower control
system which will reflect with some accuracy the number of people that are
actually working and the number of people that are in transit or in training,
or in some other status and not actually producing. We have gone through
any number of exercises on this one and we have reached the point where I
felt that we should present it to the Career Council to see if the principle
which is embodied in this paper is workable and desirable. If it is, then
there are obviously lots of procedures to be developed to imlement it. So
what we are really after is an expression from this Council as to the prin-
ciple involved.
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We discussed the first paper, entitled "Revised Personnel Promotion
and Assignment Policies," at my weekly staff meeting yesterday, and there
were a few changes--mostly editorial--which were suggested, but we thought
they were of sufficient merit that we have made those changes in the draft
paper dated 10 November 1955, which I believe you all have before you. I
can tell you very briefly what the changes are, and I think it would be
better then if we worked from this revised draft.
In the first draft which you had we referred, in several instances,
to the new table of organization concept which embodies a staffing complement
and a development complement. Since that concept is really dealt with in the
second paper, it was felt by some that it tended to confuse the first, and
the paper doesn't suffer any by taking all mention of the development comple-
ment out completely. If you glance down under assumptions, paragraph 2.b. -
that is the only change made there. In paragraph 3.a. it was thought that
a better wording would be: "Heads of Career Services are responsible for
ensuring that all employees of their Career Service . - rather than
.saying ". . . all employees under their jurisdiction . . ." - which is purely
an editorial change. And in paragraph 3.b. - "There are times when the con-
cept of promotion for merit, based on a competitive evaluation of employee's
accomplishments and value to the Agency, runs counter to the concept of pay
based solely on the grade of the individual's current position." It was
thought that was a better expression of what we were really trying to say,
instead of saying, ". . . based solely on current duties performed."
I believe the other changes are solely to get rid of the develop-
ment complement wording.
Assuming that everybody has read this paper, I would just like to
go to the recommendations and, in a word, say that what we are trying to do
in this paper is to allow, where the merit of an individual employee warrants
it, allow an employee to occupy a position in the staffing pattern, or the
T/O, or whatever you want to call it, which is rated at a lower grade than
that which he holds, and not to limit that to one percent. In order to main-
tain the balance, however, so that we don't have everybody in higher grades
and nobody in lower grades we feel that we must have some control, and we
propose to get that control through Career Service rather than an organization
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component. That I can illustrate by saying that if a given Career Service
is authorized in various places - there will be Career Service positions in
all components that are FI or PP or Logistics, or something else, and so
that within that Career Service, however, wherever the total number of
positions may be located, there will be, let's say, 100 grade 15's. To take
a better example, let's take 100 grade 14's. Within that Career Service
there can't be more than 100 grade 141s, but you could have 10 grade 15's
occupying grade 14 positions, if you wanted to, provided you had left 10
vacancies somewhere else. Do I make myself clear? I'm not sure I do.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Where else?
COLONEL WHITE: Somewhere else within that Career Service.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Suppose you left 10 GS-7's vacant. Is that all
right?
MR. At the same grade level; in other words, in your
Career Service if your total positions add up to 100 GS-14's, you can't have
more than 100 persons of GS-14 rank.
COLONEL WHITE: That is right.
25X1A9a MR. _ But they can be assigned to either GS-15 or GS-13
jobs without penalty--
COLONEL WHITE: There would still be a classification system which
would set up jobs and say, "This job is classified at a certain grade" - but
as long as within that Career Service they did not exceed the total number
of grade 15's authorized, and 14's, etc., they could have flexibility in
25X1A assignment. If you have a man in-for example, who is a grade 14 - he's
in a grade 14 slot, and a grade 14 is the proper classification for that job,
but he has done such an outstanding job you want to promote him, or he has
come in competition with other people back at home, or other places, you
don't have to wait until you transfer him to a grade 14 slot to promote him.
25X1A9a MR. _ Provided you have one less than your total number
of 15's.
25X1A9a MR._ Doesn't that mean there will be some 14 in a 15 slot
who will never get promoted?
COLONEL WHITE: He has to wait his turn.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What control does this put over a Career Service
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getting more and more out of bounds? When does there have to be an evening
up? How long can a 15 sit in a 14 slot?
COLONEL WHITE: We haven't placed any limitation on it, Kirk. I
felt that that would work itself out, because if you do this thing on a
wholesale basis and get everything out of balance, you are going to have the
worst morale situation you could possibly imagine. So I think every Career
Service would have a natural incentive to NOT use this unless it is really
a justifiable case.
15 slots it is because I have picked up a really outstanding iii and made him
a 15, and then the other people who were the best qualified do not suffer
except in their own minds, because you can't exceed the number of 15's that
are authorized to that office.
COLONEL WHITE: I think we were supposed to underline that and we
slipped somewhere, because it isn't underlined here on the draft.
MR. REYNOLDS: In the other one we had it underlined. I underlined
it in mine.
: One thing here that I think should, be mentioned
is that this is all based on "best qualified." Therefore, if I have 14's in
MR But you have the man on a job which is rated a
15, and he is doing the work, supposedly, satisfactorily - which is why you
have him there, you may very well keep from paying him a proper rate for the
work he is doing because you have moved somebody ahead there. And it seems
to me there is a tendency there to shift and get the thing out of balance,
and at some point you are going to have people stymied and not paid for the
work they are doing because somebody else is getting that money. 25X1A9a
COLONEL WHITE: That is true. That goes back to
point, that if you administer this as a Career Service you have promoted the
man "best qualified," and that also puts the monkey on the Career Service's
back not to abuse this situation, because if you do then you will have people,
just as you say, who are not getting paid for what they are really doing.
25X1A9a M. Wouldn't it be better to force a transfer of
this fellow who should be promoted to a 15 job, so that you pay him--
COLONEL WHITE: I can respond to that because - let's say I have a
man in the Comptroller's office who is overseas and in grade lei- job, and as
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the Comptroller he gets a 15 vacancy somewhere. This man has just gone over-
seas and has been there only three months in a grade 14 job, and the
Comptroller has a vacancy for promotion to a 15. He looks over all his
grade 14's, and, all things considered, he sees this fellow in this 14 job
is the best qualified man and he should be promoted to grade 15. Well, all
right, he can be promoted to grade 15 and still stay in that grade 14
25X1A6a
position out i' or wherever he happens to be, until his tour is up,
but otherwise the Comptroller would have to move that man, move another
grade 14 out there, etc. This is a problem which we in the support offices
and in the DD/P, particularly, have to face all the time. I mean, the system
of forcing him to move is the system which we now have. It's a rigid system,
which is what we are trying to get rid of, really.
25X1A9a MR. _ It seems to me that this is a great step forward as
far as the Agency is concerned - unless we are to develop an entirely differ-
ent wage management system and, in other words, go into an entirely new con-
cept. This is certainly giving flexibility to the classification system we
use now, while not cutting us loose from it. In other words, we are still
anchored to it but are given more flexibility within the concept of it.
There is nothing that I see in this paper which requires any office to leave
the present system. This is voluntary, if you choose to use it, but if you
don't like the system you can still go along with exactly the system we have
now of putting 14's in 14 slots and 15's in 15 slots. There is nothing that
is going to prevent that. Consequently, it really is, in a sense, putting
a much bigger job, maybe, on the Career Service Board to properly administer
this so it isn't abused, but there isn't any freedom in this world that
doesn't involve a certain amount of discipline in return, because you can't
have a policeman there all the time. As far as the DD/P is concerned this
is going to help us greatly in solving some of the difficult assignment
problems we have. If it's not administered properly we will certainly catch
up with it before it becomes dangerous. I feel it is a definite step forward
and something I would like very much to see us do.
25X1A9a We have been talking about 14's and 15's.
The place where I am more concerned is down in the 9's and 11's. There is
where I find some of the real stars that are the "comers" of tomorrow, and
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to try to build for a long-range I want to get the outstanding 9's and il's
up higher. These other people are doing a satisfactory job but are not con-
tributing as much to the Agency as these other, younger ones. We will pull
those stars out of the "crud" and the others will move on a time honored
basis due to attrition,
COLONEL WHITE: And, also, I think we are trying to get away from
the pressure which supervisors come under for promotion of a fellow just
because he has been in a position for a period of say six months and he is
doing a satisfactory Job, when many times he just barely is doing a satis-
factory job, but he is there and he says, "Well, either I am not doing the
job or I am entitled to promotion."
25X1A9a
MR.: How does this solve that?
COLONEL WHITE: The system doesn't solve it, but it certainly per-
mits you to say, "You are not the best qualified among the people of your
grade; therefore, even though you are in a higher grade I am promoting another
man because he is the best qualified."
25X1A9a MR. _: You can do that now.
25X1A9a
Here is your difficulty--anybody who has an
25X1A6averseas component - the man is over there. The best one is in and
25X1A6a the vacancy is in- So I deny this man who is the best qualified--he has
to wait 18 months to two years. You can tell a man "We have compared all
these people - and you are NOT the best qualified"--
25X1A9a MR. _ How is this much better than the existing regulation
of one percent?
COLONEL WHITE: Well, this is 100%.
MR. REYNOLDS: The one percent was the putting of a higher grade
into a lower slot, and this allows you to promote a man in a 13 slot to a 14,
and let him stay on in the 13 slot until he is transferred out.
25X1A9a MR. Was that not possible before?
MR. REYNOLDS: No.
25X1A9a
MR The one percent is done on an assignment basis. This
permits promotion.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Would this create any problem between different
sized Career Services?
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MR. REYNOLDS: I don't think so, Kirk. I would think it would
work out if we think of the Career Service in terms of the Infantry versus
the Cavalry versus the Corps of Engineers, which is what this concept is
based on, as Red and I originally talked about it--you have small depart-
ments in the Army as against big ones.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: An awfully lot of people are trying to get out
of the Cavalry, though. (Laughter)
There is inequity in job responsibility in
this heterogenous organization.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: In the smaller Career Services where you have a
smaller grade structure, people might look to the larger ones and realize if
they got over there they would have a better opportunity.
MR. REYNOLDS: That goes on now.
? COLONEL WHITE: You would have more flexibility in a bigger Service,
but the simplest explanation is that if you have got only two people to con-
sider you promote the best man, and you may not promote the other fellow
even though he is in a higher-graded slot.
MR. REYNOLDS: The last four words in paragraph 3.a. should be
25X1A9a
underlined: ". . . who are best qualified." That was
suggestion.
25X1A9a That was the whole basis. If you don't pro-
mote on that basis it's no good at all. There's no other purpose for it.
It can be abused if you don't follow that.
25X1A9a
MR. - I like this flexibility, I must admit, but I don't
particularly care for the rigid Civil Service type of classification. But
I am a little afraid that at least from where I sit that this is going to
lead into a very bad staffing pattern which we will have to rectify and
eventually face.
COLONEL WHITE: Gene, I would frankly say, if I were sitting in
your position in your office, it would be a hot day in December when I
took advantage of this situation.
25X1A6a MR. You.may rest assured we shan't ever use this.
COLONEL WHITE: But as far as this is concerned, you don't have
a problem. The problem is concerned with people who have people scattered
in all parts of the world and they can't move them around with as much ease
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MR. I agree.
25X1A9a MR. That is our whole attitude about it, on the
DD/I side as a whole.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think the paper is good except for paragraph
2. I think that sentence--and I don't think this is exactly the forum in
which we want to discuss it--is one that we should knock out of all of our
papers. As I've said before, and as I said at the Deputies' meeting the
other day, I think the longer this Agency is going to try to continue to
use the pay grades and pay scales provided by the Classification Act, and
then in the same breath stand up and say it is a much different type of
agency and so we have to have a different building, and so on--the more we
try to ride these two horses which are going in different directions, the
worse the split is going to be. I would not object to that paragraph saying
that the Agency will continue to generally adhere to the pay grades and pay
scales of the Federal Government.
25X1A9a You don't have to say it at all. : It doesn't
affect the paper.
MR. KIRK PATRICK: The more we say we are going to adhere to this
Classification Act, and thus put ourselves in the same category as every
other Federal department, and then in many other issues, such as your prob-
lem in Budget about CIA having a higher grade scale--that is a very bad
mistake. Either we are going to be a different agency and say that we are
a different agency, or we are going to be like the rest of the Federal Gov-
ernment. I would say this is one edemic illness that we have to face up to.
I think the last mention the Director had was that Mr.- and I would 25X1A9a
get together on this subject, precipitating an issue with the Civil Service
Commission or the Bureau of the Budget.
MR. REYNOLDS: Actually, I would point out to the Council that
this is a staff study here, and the only parts of it that will have any
affect whatsoever on the Agency as a whole, are the recommendations that are
approved.
COLONEL WHITE: All we are trying to say is that we must have job
standards and we must control average salaries--whether they should be
higher or lower, we must control them.
MR. REYNOLDS: I understand exactly what the Inspector General
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means; but, on the other hand, I would like to point out, as Director of
Personnel, that we are constantly required, when it comes time for separ-
ations or retirement, etc., to conform to the Federal Government's rules.
So there is the other side of the coin that does exist, and very definitely
exists, because the people who work with this Agency, when they get through
or there is an inequity, expect to be treated like other Federal employees.
COLONEL WHITE: I for one have no objection to changing the classi-
fication or pay system if we have something that is better and workable, but
until we have something that is workable I think we would be ill-advised to
jump off the deep end.
MR. _ Actually, this only says that we adhere to the pay
grades and pay scales. It doesn't say that we adhere to the principles or
rules.
COLONEL WHITE: Kirk has a point, though, that every-time we use
the same words that people normally use in saying we are Civil Service, we
dig the trench a little deeper.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And I think it is going to require the Director
some day to say that he wishes to revoke a statement made by a previous
Director, saying that we don't adhere to that fact.
COLONEL WHITE: I don't think anybody except people at CIA remember
the statement.
MR, KIRKPATRICK: The point is, Red, that we are going to Congress
the next session, maybe, for a Career Bill to get through, and we hoist our-
selves on our own petard everytime we say on the one hand this statement, and
everytime we ask the Congress to pass a Career Bill giving our people ex-
ceptional benefits. They just don't jibe.
The conclusions aren't based on that at all.
MR. = I move the recommendations be approved.
. . . Motion that the recommendations in Draft Staff Study dated
10 November 1955, Subject: Revised Personnel Promotion and Assignment Policies,
was then duly seconded and passed . . .
MR. REYNOLDS: Is there an amendment to paragraph 2, in conformity
with Mr. Kirkpatrick's suggestion?
Paragraph 2.a.?
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MR. REYNOLDS: It's now plain paragraph 2 under "Assumptions."
What is the pleasure of the Council?
MR. I would say some change should be made.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I move the Personnel Office draft a revision
COLONEL WHITE: I don't feel strongly about that paragraph, but
as other people in the Agency read this paper and until we have something
better, we will have to use the standards we are now using and the grades we
are now using. All this is saying is that we are still going to have GS-7's,
and GS-9's, and GS-11's, and I would hate for the impression to get around
the Agency that the system was scuttled unless it is.
MR. REYNOILDS: I would like to repeat again what I said,, because
I get the other side of the coin, gentlemen, in this thing, and its very
important when people are separating or retiring--
COLONEL WHITE: All paragraph 2 says is that we are still going to
have GS-3's and GS-5's, GS-7's, and GS-9's.
25X1A9a
MR. _ Why not say, "That the Agency will continue to use the
existing pay grades and pay scales" - and cut out "provided by the.Classi-
fication Act of 1949" - and then say, "but may make additional modifications
insofar as is necessary" - and then you cut out the invidious words but you
say the same thing.
COLONEL WHITE: "The Agency will continue to use the existing pay
grades and pay scales-
25X1A9a MR. _ "The Agency will continue to use existing pay grades
and pay scales . . .
COLONEL WHITE: All right. "...but may make additional modifications-
MR. REYNOLDS: "...insofar as is necessary...." With the: amendment
25X1A9a suggested by Mr M do I hear a motion that it be approved?
25X1A9a
. . . This amendment was then duly passed . . .
25X1A9a
MR. REYNOLDS: Item 3 on the agenda will be presented by
MR. M : I have only a word or two of preface to add to what
Colonel White has already said about the substantive aspects of the paper.
I want to emphasize that this paper is a policy and principles paper, and
omits procedures. Any procedures question you have, you can, of course, ask,
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but we are not prepared to answer it. We are studying it. We know we can
work out procedures to service these principles and policies.
Now, of interest to you would be the fact that the Office of
Personnel and we in Management have not only spent a lot of time working on
this, but, also, we have looked at other working devices or mechanisms of
this nature. We developed a new one ourselves, different from this, using a
different device, a different total mechanism, and have discarded it. We
also looked at how the Department of Agriculture does this kind of a control,
and we have discarded that. We have considered what industry does. We are
recommending this one. Besides the objective that Colonel White has mentioned
a better controlled mechanism - there is a second one, and that is to avoid
and get out and away from the present deficiencies and bad aspects of our
existing T/0 mechanism. It's bad, and it's very bad, and it's not any con-
trolled mechanism whatsoever, in my opinion.
Now, don't quarrel with the need for more editing, please. We
The heart of this whole thing is that if it is any good it
must be simple. This is, in the first place, a conception of work:burden for
your office in the form of what we call here a "staffing complement." A
staffing complement, therefore, is a work burden, a description of the person-
nel work burden needs of your office. Then you have lots of other people in
different categories. They are not contributing to the work of your office,
if they are in training or detailed to State, or what have you; so, therefore,
you wrap up everybody else in what is called "a development complement." We
chose the word "development" very carefully because psychologically you can
say the wrong word and ruin the whole thing. If we called it a "pool" you
can just imagine what would happen to the device. So, and properly, we call
it "a development complement."
Now, then, there is detailed here some categories of people
w~o would be in such a complement. Therefore, as you can see, as we
develop this thing it will take a year or more to do the whole Agency. You
will know what people are contributing to your work burden that you have as
of today and where the rest of your people are. This device vitalizes that
rather innocuous piece of business called "in-casual and out-casual report."
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There is no blood in it. There is blood in this. And that is about the
whole story. The rest of it, the responsibilities and procedures, we have
to clean up. Much of it is not different, with respect to some responsi-
bilities, than now. The conception here again brings the Career Boards into
a specific,'new responsibility that they don't have now, or if they have it
they don't service it properly. This gives them life, too - additional life.
That is all I want to say, until we get to the point of questions. Surely
you have one, Mr. Kirkpatrick?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Couldn't you get Colonel White to let you have
the development complement outside of the T/0?
M. Outside of ceiling? I didn't try that because I don't
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I have a question. I know what my work burden
is, it's my present T/O. I have nobody else. Things happen to a lot of
people but that doesn't lessen my work burden.
25X1A9a MR. - What we are doing here, and this was written, from an
intellectual point of view, of DD/P. I knew you had some thinking along
these same lines. We have not carefully looked at the DD/I nor the DDS. We
think some of this, without any question, would fit the DD/I, but we would
like to take a look at the DD/I separately from the DD/P, after you have con-
sidered the principles set forth here. There is no sense in our going any
further if you don't like the scheme as such.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Speaking of work burdens, what is the work burden
of the Personnel Office going to be?
MR. REYNOLDS: That we have gone into very carefully, Kirk, and
have made up for ourselves the procedures. I'd like to ask hat 25X1A9a
because he was in specific charge of that function.
25X1 A9a the num
ber of
MR. - Well, it would mean approximately double
personnel actions now going through. Most of this work would be on a cleri-
cal basis, and the recording and reporting would be done by machines.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: How many personnel actions do we have a year now,
do you know? 40 thousand?
MR. MI don't know.
?
25X1A9a MR. Roughly, about
that reasonably correct?
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MR. _: Not more than that.
25X1A9a
COLONEL WHITE: When you say two per man, you are talking about
promotions, change in grade, etc.?
25X1A9a MR. - Every time an SF-50 has to be written.
25X1 A9a MR. REYNOLDS : Last year Mr. 'emembers it being 25X9A2
for 1954.
25X1A9a MR, _ Mr. Chairman, there is a further, procedures supple-
25X1A9a meat for what has said. We have not finished the procedures
study, and both Harry and I have the ambition that perhaps we can work out a
system that will avoid the doubling up for each kind of transaction; presented
here.
MR. REYNOLDS: That is the reason John and I are going to have a
very careful machine survey of the Records and Services Division, and we think
we can simplify some of the present procedures. That is in process now.
COLONEL WHITE: One of the things we're after here, to go back into
history a bit, there was one time when we had - more positions in the 25X9A2
table of organization than we had people. Well, that has been considerably
reduced but we still have tables of organization, by and large, that are far
in excess of both number of people on duty and the ceiling, taken from an
Agency point of view. Pretty generally for every component that is true. And
under the present system you have all the components, quite properly, I
think, defending these T/0's because they say "we have to have a cushion."
Granted, we don't need all these people to do our day-to-day work, but we
have so many people enroute to and from the Pacific, so many people in train-
ing, and this and that and the other, and therefore we have to have this
cushion. And there is no way to come to grips with this thing, that we have
found so far, to get right down to brass tacks about what they do need.
While we don't have these things as much as we used to, we did have lots of
cases where people would be back for months when, due to the system--at least
in part, if not the large part--they were still carried in field Tf0's, and
that sort of thing. This would be a squeeze system which would squeeze every-
thing out in the open and would show management--and I am talking about man-
agement on any level, not the Management Staff--where people were and what
they were doing, and how marry were producing, etc.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Isn't that the main thing it would show? In other
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words, you could draw an organization chart of the Agency and show your
staffing complement, which would mean, in effect, your working employees,
as so much, in blue, and then on top of that, in red, you would have your
development complement in which the employees basically would be travelling
or training or doing non-productive jobs. And my suggestion, which may be
a step further than this, and probably John is already thinking about this,
is that basically speaking your working ceiling then would be more realistical-
ly what your staffing complement would be.
COLONEL WHITE: It would be the same, really.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You would allow much greater flexibility in your
development complement.
COLONEL WHITE: Yes. In your development complement you couldn't
fix the grades, just the numbers.
25X1A9a MR. But if those numbers of our present ceiling
25X1A9a
strength are the sum of the staffing complement and the development complement,
we have earned no cushion. This system gives us no cushion, nothing more than
what we have today except a designator for a certain type of person on a
certain job.
COLONEL WHITE: It doesn't give you anything more but it gives the
Director a lot more, and I think it would give a lot more than he25XlA9a
has now, as to how many people do I need, and where are they, and what is this
percentage of people not really producing. One thing that would go into the
development complement would be the five percent of people we are going to
have to put in training status between now and the 30th of June.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't follow your logic, how the Director and
ould benefit--
COLONEL WHITE: I don't mean the rest of the Agency doesn't benefit,
but I understood Von to say, "You aren't giving me any relief, just tighten-
ing up the system." We wouldn't be giving you any more people, we would just
be having a tighter, or, in my view, a cleaner system.
MR. REYNOLDS: Both of these papers are in an attempt to give the
top officials of this Agency what they have been asking for for the last
year and a half; one is a tighter control over people, and the other is more
flexibility and elasticity in the promotion system.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: One other thing it will give, it will show the
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ECREE
Director what he has producing as compared to what he hasn't producing. He
is probably going to be shocked.
COLONEL WHITE: He has been specifically after both me and John
to give him this kind of information, and we, frankly, are not in a position
to give it to him from the way we are set up today.
25X1A9a MR.- We're not going to get any extra hands. How many
extra hands is this going to cost to do it? In other words, are we going
to have to keep track of all these specific items?
25X1A9a MR. ~ I would like to emphasize the nature of the additional
personnel actions required by this system are such that they can be handled
on a clerical level and on a large volume basis. Doubling the number of
actions would not necessarily mean adding any personnel.
COLONEL WHITE: You might double the number of certain types of
actions, but, let's say, if there are ctions I would be sur-
prised if more than three or four thousand of them were the type of person-
nel actions that would be affected. I might be wrong.
25X1A9a MR. = It's mostly a typing and recording job.
COLONEL WHITE: Maybe some system can be worked out that would make
it even unnecessary to cut a formal personnel action--I don't know. Cer-
tainly if there is a simpler way to do it, we will find it. But the idea
is so that we have a measurement of how many people are producing and how
many people are not producing, and what they are doing.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: A personnel action is not a burden only on the
Personnel Office, because everybody has to prepare them, and if the Manage-
ment Staff and the Personnel Office can come up with a system whereby this
does not appreciably increase the overall clerical work of the personnel
components of the Agency, and perhaps even can simplify it, then I think
this is fine. Otherwise I think it's an exercise in semantics, unless Dick
has some strong arguments as to how it is going to help his side of the
house.
25X1A9a Mi I certainly agree with what you say, Kirk, and I am
confident that a survey of the procedures should be able to cut down on the
amount of paper work. It does seem to me a lot of it is really - I won't
say "pointless," but advances us not at all. In the last week I signed five
personnel actions, and the girls were simply booted from one chair to
25X9A2
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another in the same office, and this was to make it right on the T/O. It
would seem to me there must be a much simpler device than that. There must
be some way of doing it, by maybe punching another hole in a card, or some-
thing, but not have to go through all this business.
On the other hand, I must say that I yearn for a system of -
what do you call it? - T/O management? around here which will at least
bring some realism into our lives. We talk constantly about T/O's, but in
fact we have virtually none. Realism and what is on the paper--you can never
put them together. You never come out except with a lot of Irish pennants
hanging around the edges, and there is no date in history they are all up to
date. I don't know of any time in recent years when, if you called for all
T/O's in the DD/P and sat down with them, you would find a realistic picture
of our organization. If this is the best thinking of the Agency on this
subject, then I am all for it.
25X1A9a MR.
25X1A9a
25X1 A9a
From a purely selfish point of view, within
the DD/I the problem of this group which would make up the development com-
plement here is certainly small, infinitesimal compared to yours L indicat-
ing Mr. _T. We know where they are. Even I could almost call them
off by name now. Therefore, we see this only as additional office work.
I think the principle is a good one but not, to us, worth the effort necessary
for each office to carry on with it.
25X1A9a MR.~ Put yourself in the same position you took on the
other one--you don't have to take it unless you find it useful.
MR. It seems to me if this is done it should be done
Agency-wide.
25X1A9a
COLONEL WHITE: What about your five percent worth--
MR. I have hardly had time to digest that.
(Laughter)
COLONEL WHITE: Would the Council like to have John and Harry
study this a little further to see what the burden is going to be if you
implement such a system? I think you would have to take maybe one unit
and really get down to cases, and give them some idea of what it would be.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think the approach is fine, and I think it
would give a much clearer indication of exactly how many drones we have
working in the hive and how many we don't. But would like to see, before
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it is adopted across the Agency, at least a one component study as to the
dollars and cents cost of implementing it, and to see whether John and
Harry can't come up with perhaps some system of simplifying it. Sure,
Vernon may say it is not going to add much to their clerical burden, jump-
ing from in a 25X9A2
year, but I think that that is a chain reaction right across the Agency,
because every one of us has to prepare personnel actions on every move.
25X1A9a MR.M I think the function of the Board in this situation is
25X1A
to encourage John and Harry, and the rest, to get on with this and. try to
work it out. It is the most helpful thing that has come up, and we certain-
ly can't, in one session, say that this couldn't be solved along those lines.
COLONEL WHITE: That is what we are looking to, and not to beat
ourselves to death in working this out unless in principle it is accepted.
MR. REYNOLDS: We will have a set of notices or regulations to get
out on this one. This one John and I can work up some more, and come up
with what we can along the lines of Dick's suggestion. Are there any other
comments or instructions you wish to give us? CNo response.] Then I
am going to express it that it is the sense of the meeting that you approve
in principle in what the Management Staff and the Office of Personnel have
come up with, and you request them to continue the study further to simplify
any such procedures and actions, but in principle it is sound.
COLONEL WHITE: Harry, were you going to mention this paper that
was a latecomer?
MR. REYNOLDS: No, sir. It went to everyone. It's a revised
draft of Notic defining ceiling.
COLONEL WHITE: Did you want an expression from the Council on it?
MR. REYNOLDS: I think approval from the Council would be a good
thing to have.
. . . Motion was then made, seconded and passed approving Proposed
25X1A
Notice "Table of Organization - Staff Ceiling"
MR. REYNOLDS: There will be a meeting next Thursday, at this
same time and in this same room, and we're going to give you a copy of the
agenda for that meeting after this meeting.
I would also like to mention to you a Career Service Award
, 4V
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party which is being held on the 2nd of December at the Sheraton-Park
Hotel. A few of our people will have to go because we belong to the Society
for Personnel Administration. The tickets are $6.50.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The Personnel Office can adequately represent
MR. REYNOLDS: If there is no further business, the meeting is
adjourned.
. . . The meeting adjourned at 4:50 p.m. . . .
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