CIA CAREER COUNCIL 60TH MEETING 4 FEBRUARY 1960

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000800100017-9
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 15
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 1, 1998
• Sequence Number: 17
• Publication Date: February 4, 1960
• Content Type: MIN

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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
60th Meeting
4 February 1969
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. The 60th meeting of the CIA Career Council convened at
3:30 p.m. on Thursday, 4February 1960, in the DCI Conference Room, with
the following present:
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Gordon M. Stewart, Chairman
Matthew Baird, Member
Alternate Member
Lyman B. Kirkpatr1c1, Member
H. Gates Lloyd, Alternate Member
11?1111111111.11111Munkfternate Member
Huntington D. Sheldon, Alternate Member
ve Secretary
. The Council met first in executive session to select an
additional candidate to attend the August 1960 session of the National War
College
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. The minutes of the 59th meeting of the Career Council
were approved as submitted . . ?
MR. BAIRD: I think I am lax here in not following up on something
that was taken -up at the last meeting. Item 4 (-reading]:
"The DD/I member of the Council suggested that
consideration be given to negotiating an agreement
to allow an Agency officer to attend the Imperial
Defense College. It was generally agreed that this
suggestion should be explored with Mr.
The Chairman will initiate action after discusslon
with the Director of Training."
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I haven't done a thing about that--and I honestly didn't know I was expected
to, until I saw these minutes.
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MR. STEWART: Well, we have been lax in briefing you on it.
MR. BAIRD: Well, my representative at the last meeting should
have briefed me, but he didn't.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would like to say, and this doesn't necessarily
have to change the minutes of the last meeting, but I think that for Matt's
sake we simply might reflect that this was merely an idea advanced to the
Council, and there was neither enthusiasm nor a great deal of cold water
thrown on it--it was simply a matter of interest. I personally am skeptical
about the value of one of our people attending the Imperial Defense College.
It might be good for the DD/I-
MR. BAIRD: This isn't anything new with Bob. He knew about it.
25X1A9a I think it's probably a bad idea for the DD/P.
MR. BAIRD: The DD/P wouldn't want it, or wouldn't want any--
25X1A9a We wouldn't care if the DD/I had a representa-
tive there or not, but I don't think it's a particularly desirable assign-
ment for a member of the Clandestine Services.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would just also like to point out I don't
think it's something CIA should blast into strictly on its own, because it
does involve the possibility of a request for reciprocity, and we might be
a little embarrassed if MI6 said, "All right, we have given you a spot, now
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will you fellows arrange for us to attend the National War College?"
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highly of this suggestion. But we thought that maybe we would give Frank
the assignment, or just ask him if he could casually feel around and get
at it. Now it seems to me, Ting, that since this is a matter of DD/I
interest it might be just as well if you have one of your fellows back here
brief him--and also send a letter to Frank--so that the thing could be gone
over and discussed with Frank, or if anybody is on
the Council--
MR. BAIRD: Didn't you decide you were at least going to sound
out on this?
MR. STEWART: That is about what the Council ended up at. It
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: He's a very close friend of I 25X1A9a
might say - isn't he?
MR. SHELDON: Yes. That might put a different slant on this.
Now it doesn't seem to me that DD/I should move unilaterally here in this
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MR. BAIRD: I would like to interject a note to this. This
seems to be a pretty expensive program - to send a man and his family over
there--and he would probably be senior enough so he would want to take his
family--for what you get out of it.
Couldn't the Chairman of this Council write a
letter and ask for his reaction to this?
MR. SHELDON: I don't think the DD/I should explore this on his own.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Might I suggest that maybe we should consult
our Director?
MR. STEWART: I have the strong feeling, the way I add up the
various comments that have been made here, that we don't have grounds to
go to the Director.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: If we don't have grounds to go to the Director
we certainly don't have grounds
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MR. STEWART: I think we ought to drop this thing right here,
unless somebody can think of a good reason for pursuing it. The expense
the most promising case in the world here.
MR. BAIRD: Let's delegate Mx. Sheldon a committee of one to
carry the word back to Mr. Amory.
MR. STEWART: I think Mr. Sheldon could do that, since he has
spoken so eloquently in opposition here.
Then we're going to drop that one, Mx.
Chairman?
MR. STEWART: Yes.
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It's all right with me.
MR. STEWART: Anything else on the minutes of the last meeting?
NO response. 2
. . . Mr. Stewart then gave the Council a report on
the current status of - "Separation of Surplus
Personnel" -
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MR. STEWART: The Civilian Specialist Reserve we have all agreed
should be dropped as a program under the Council's cognizance, and it is
being transferred to Commo. I merely wanted to mention that.
That is all the business I had--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me see if I understand that last statement--
in other words, the Agency will have no Civilian Reserve except in Commo?
MR. STEWART: That is right.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Therefore, in the event of hot war what we
would have to do is have an IBM run on ex-employees--
MR. STEWART: We have the "pen pal" thing which keeps us in
touch with ex-employees. But the Civilian Specialist Reserve which provided
funds for bringing these people in and training them was something DD/P
didn't want anyway. Matt, you had a few psychologists--and we had a little
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bit of interest elsewhere in the Agency, but even Commo found the thing
very hard to work, and the only reason
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continue with it is because he has such a tough problem he thought he
shouldn't put this one down even though it turned out to be relatively
unpromising.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Then, Gordon, as Director of Personnel if the
war broke out at a quarter of five tonight and you immediately started to
get levies for personnel, what would be your inclination - go back to our
alumni or to the military services?
MR. STEWART: Both. You see, we already have our levies on the
military registered with them, acknowledged, and so on. We don't think
we stand very high on their priority list, but we would have that possi-
bility. I personally feel, just to give you my view of war planning,
that the day that this Agency knows how it's going to manage its awn
personnel during a war we will be a damned sight better off than we are
today. We don't even know who is going to do what - and we are far from
knowing that. We have war plans but we don't have what are called "tran-
sition plans"--what do you do the day war starts? We have things that
tell us what is going to be done when it is in full flower, but we haven't
gotten into where does and his Staff go, and all of that.
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We haven't even solved a much more basic
question; and that is how many are we going to have left after the first
salvo?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It's that transition planning Khrushchev is
trying to: eliminate.
Precisely. The transition period is going
to be the difficult period.
. . . Mr. Sheldon left the meeting , . .
MR. BAIRD: May I raise one question? What is the trend--if you
know what it is--of the Retirement Board's policy on people who don't want
to be retired? Is it heading in any direction, or have they got a policy
on it? Is it going to be 18 months, or less, or more, or each case
decided on its own merits?
MR. START: Absolutely - each case on its own merits. I think
that represents Larry's feelings.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Do you have any statistics at all on it yet -
how many are being retired and how many are being retained?
MR. STEWART: Let me just guess what the statistics are. I think
that has talked to 30 people, and of those, as I recall, eight
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didnIt want to go or couldn't go, and of the eight, six couldn't go because
of very easily established financial reasons) and two were having such a
lot of fun around here that even though they could clearly retire) they
just didn't want to retire. In the cases where they are running up against
25X1 A9a these problems 1s taking each case, getting all of the material,
and putting the case before the Board. That is the way I understand the
thing to be running.
MR. LLOYD: And the other 22?
MR. STEWART: There are a good number that are accepting their
dates.
MR. BAIRD: That is the point I wanted to raise--because I think
some of them are just being very good soldiers, saying, "If the policy of
the Agency is that I am to retire at 62, that is good enough for me - I
have always done what I was told to do." But there are others--and Ting
has left, unfortunately--there are two offices in the DD/I that, on pretty
good hearsay, have told their people, "Look, yes there is a piece of paper
on it, but if you don't want to retire, don't pay any attention to it."
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Mr. Amory has made it very clear, not just in
this body but in other bodies, too, that he does not consider a 62 retirement
age as practical in his organization, that he thinks from 62 to 75, if
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necessary, they are just as capable for him as if they are 35 to 45 - in fact,
they may be more so, because they are more experienced.
MR. STEWART: But told me the other day driving up
here in the car to the Senior Staff Meeting that it was just a blessing to
have that regulation, that they had talked to six or eight people in OK,
that these people are now planning and thinking about it, and that it came
as a relief to them that somebody would take the subject up with them,
because they have been putting it off and not daring to raise it because
they didn't know the response they would get from management and so on.
And Otto Outhe spent a lot of time at meetings--I didn't attend the meetings
but I'm told that Otto spent a lot of time simply going into how did DD/P
get such a hard-nosed policy. Well, there is only one word
and possibly Bissell. You [-indicatingME have a policy N-
that has set a standard in the Agency. I don't think it is a standard that
could be met everywhere.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me just say this: the reason we established
this policy was for very good and valid reasons, and that there would be
some people of exceptional ability we would like to have stay on between
62 and the statutory retirement age of 70, but that these would not be the
individuals that would be selected. Now I think it's all well and good for
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the DD/I to have some people to put in this category, but as pointed
out, it's a blessing to the DD/P. But the whole point, that Dan knows,
and which we labor with constantly, is that the more these people are kept
on the more slots are blocked to move people into as we try to cut back.
MR. BAIRD: I only feel there ought to be a uniform policy.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You mean like the overtime?
MR. BAIRD: Kirk, it isn't right for one component to do it one
way and another component another way.
It seems to me the DD/P's interpretation of
the issuance that you presented to the Director, and that he signed, is a
perfectly reasonable and logical implementation of that directive?and it
is a little bit tough, but, my goodness, if you don't set some limits to
these things you certainly will find that the returns on this effort will
be very, very small indeed.
MR. STEWART: Absolutely. In the next five years, including the
people we are now dealing with, we are going to have 500 people enter
this zone. Now that becomes a significant number of people.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And it would help our problem a great deal.
It helps enormously, because it helps you
to put pressure on a man who doesn't really have much to offer, but it
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per
doesn't really require you to get rid of a man who is of continuing value
to you. SO it's a perfectly flexible and entirely helpful policy.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'll tell you an interesting item. Hank
25X1A9a as sick last week and, consequently, couldn't go down to lecture
25X1A9a to the middle management course, and I asked to go, and Bob
and I looked over the questions submitted in advance, and one of the
questions was: A compulsory retirement age of 62 has been set in the Agency.
Mr. Dulles is 65. How does he justify this? We answered that in one
sentence: If you are another Allen Dulles we will look at your case too.
MR. STEWART: One final word. I think the Deputies have now
received the Career Service study that has been turned out, and I have a
letter asking that I coordinate the views and pull together the views of
the Deputies concerning this, within the framework of the Council, and get
some kind of a statement back by the 1st of June, I think?or maybe it's
the let of July, but anyway, it's this spring.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would just like to reiterate what I said in
the covering memo, that the Director is aware this is a very, very com-
plicated problem, and we didn't presume to come up with any panacea or
complete answer but we made certain suggestions which we think would lead
in the right direction. I might add that we hold no flaming torch for the
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validity of these objections, but we do hold a flaming torch for saying
there is a need for something to be done--because I detected a most
alarming complacency in certain areas of the Agency that felt the Career
Service was all right and everything was going well, and I just don't have
that same assurance--there is too much comment about it among the ranks.
MR. STEWART: It's a very complex matter. I really couldn't be
more happy that this particular aspect of personnel management is being
opened up--I mean, as somebody remarked to me, I have been dealing with
the sad side of personnel for the last couple of years - selection-out,
manpower statistics, reduction-in-force, and so on - and we have been
selling the sad side to the Agency, and if we can turn around at this time
and deal with the good and progressive aspects of personnel management, I
think this is right.
25X1 A9a May I say, I don't think you have over-emphasized
the sad side, however--I think it has a very sad side.
MR. STEWART: That is right - and we are just starting.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I will predict - and I will be happy to have
this on the record - that unless the Agency in the next few years takes a
dynamic step in this direction that the trend we already discern of people
heading back to business will accelerate and we will lose at least half of
our JOTs.
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MR. BAIRD: Yes, and the good ones.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Because we are out of the buyers' market now
and the day is past--which you (indicating Mx. Stewart]. remember as well
as I do--when every time that we were competing with the Foreign Service
for a man, we got him, and a great many of the times when we were competing
with private industry we got him - because of the lure of our business and
our reputation. This has now turned. The Foreign Service is able to compete
with us now on an equal basis.
MR. STEWART: You know, Kirk, once we get a man and once we have
him moving I don't think we have too much trouble. I think this business
has a tremendous attraction for young guys.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: They're going.
MR. STEWART: They aren't', really---but I think we fear it, and
properly so, and I agree we have to step ahead.
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. The meeting adjourned at 4:50 p m
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