FACE THE NATION

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01554R002700010001-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 17
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 17, 2001
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: March 20, 1977
• Content Type: TRANS

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CBS NEWS
2020 N Street, N. W.
Washington, D. C. 20036
FACE THE NATION
as broadcast over the
CBS Television Network
and the
CBS Radio Network
Sunday, Iiarch 20, 1977 -- 11:30 AM - 12:00 Noon, EST
Origination: Washington, D. C.
GUEST: ADMIRAL STANSFIELD TURNER
Director, Central Intelligence
Bob Woodward, The Washington Post
Fred Graham, CBS News
Producer: Mary 0. Yates
REPORTERS:
George Herman, CBS, News
Associate Producer: Joan Barone
EDITORS: All copyright and right to copyright in this transcript
and in the broadcast are owned by CBS. Newspapers and periodicals are
permitted to reprint up to 250 words of this transcript for the pur-
pose of reference, discussion or review. For permission to reprint
more than this, contact Director, CBS News Information Services,
524 W. 57th Street, New York, N. Y. 10019 (212) 765-4321.
25X1A
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HERI?,IAN: Admiral Turner, I suppose a great many operations from
day to day in Africa and Zaire, in the Congo and other places, must
occupy your attention, but your main job, it seems to me--your most
pressing, long-range interest--must be the intentions of the activities
of the Soviet Union. How do you feel they are building their military
forces--to what end and with what in mind?
ADP'?I. TURNER: I believe the Soviets think in 19th Century power
terms, Mr. Herman. I think they're trying to compensate for their
other weaknesses--economic, ideological and political--by building a
military force that they hope will weigh in the balance for them and
give them compensation for their other shortcomings. In turn, I believe
we must not let them take that advantage.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News, Washington, a spontaneous and un-
rehearsed news interview on FACE THE NATION, with the Director of
Central Intelligence, Admiral Stansfield Turner. Admiral Turner will
be questioned by CBS News Correspondent Fred Graham; by Bob Woodward,
Reporter for The Washington Post; and by CBS News Correspondent George
Herman.
HERMAN: Admiral Turner, you say you believe that the Soviet Union
is trying to make up for these other things--the death of their ideolo-
gy, the economic and technological backwardness. What do you mean,
make up for it? What do they intend to do with the dominant military
power they're building up?
ADM. TURNER: They hope that this power of military forces can be
translated into political opportunity, to political leverage on the
rest of the world; and therefore, that they can, without necessarily
having to go to war, gain an overall political advantage.
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i.+~
WOODWARD: Admiral, when President Carter offered, and you
accepted, the directorship of the CIA, what were his marching orders
to you? What did he say he wanted done? I understand that he in ef-
fect told you, if you need to re-invent the wheel out at the CIA, go
ahead. You got a blank check to do whatever you think is necessary.
ADM-I. TURNER: I don't think it's quite a blank check, Mr. Wood-
ward, but the President was very generous in saying that he wanted me
to take charge of the overall intelligence community and bring it to-
gether in one coordinated, efficient operation. And I must remind you
that he appointed me to two different posts--the Director of Central
Intelligence, which coordinates all of the intelligence operations of
our country, of which the CIA is about 15 per cent; and the Director of
the Central Intelligence Agency itself.
GRAHAM Admiral, one of the flaps that you found yourself flung
into when you were appointed to this job was, of course, the question
of payments by the CIA to foreign leaders. Now, if the chief--or if
an official of British intelligence, let's say--we've been told that
these were not improper or illegal--but if British intelligence sent a
man over here every year with a satchel of money to give to President
Carter, would you think that was also not improper or illegal?
ADM. TURNER: Mr. Graham, I think we should put in perspective the
fact that in the last thirty years the United States has given hundreds
of billions of dollars of foreign aid to friends and allies around the
world. An infinitesimal portion of that has been given in secret form,
and that procedure of secret foreign aid was actually started, with
respect to the United States, on November 29, 1776, when Benjamin
Franklin went to Paris to arrange the secret delivery of aid from the
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fa,ri
King of France to George Washington.
GRAHAM: But that doesn't really answer the question, does-it,
Admiral?
ADM. TURNER: Yes, I think it does., I think it says that foreign
aid sometimes, in secrecy, is a very, common and a very legitimate tool
of foreign policy.
GRAHAM: Well, now, the question--
HERMAN: But when it comes back to us as, for example, Korean
foreign aid to the United States, to certain members of the Congress or
wherever, we get very upset about it as it not being a proper tool of
policy.
ADM. TURNER: The Secretary of State made a distinction on that
publicly a few days ago, which I support entirely. That was a personal
delivery of money as opposed to a governmental exchange; and that is an
entirely different matter. It's a matter of bribery versus a matter
of aid and support to a friend.
WOODWARD: It's still a little confusing, because the Korean
bribes were on behalf of the Korean government, supposedly, also; and
isn't it really sort of a question of whose ox is being gored--that if
we can buy somebody abroad, okay, let's go ahead and do it; but we
don't like it being done here?
ADM. TURNER: I think it's just a matter of the propriety of the
situation on both sides; and our proprieties are carefully reviewed by
a very delicate oversight procedure in our country, and I think that
gives you and the public an assurance that this money is not going to
be employed as the Korean money apparently, or supposedly, has been
employed against our country.
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HERMAN: Now, what I derive from what you're saying, Admiral Turn-
er, is that if it comes from the United States government to an official
secretly--an official of a foreign government--that is perfectly proper
and there's no reason to stop it.
ADM. TURNER: It depends on the purpose of that money, and I'm
saying that the procedures by which we decide on this, which go through
the President of the United States and which are reviewed by the com-
mittees of the Congress that are appropriately designated for this pur-
pose, is carefully determined and does not involve things that are not
proper.
GRAHAM: Well, sir, now the payments to Hussein,, we are told, were
stopped when President Carter learned of it. Now, if that's true, and
if it's proper, why were they stopped?
ADM. TURNER: The President, when commenting on Mr. Woodward's
release about the story of payments to the Kingdom of Jordan, made it
clear that for any of us to comment on ongoing or current intelligence
operations of our country, would not be in the national interest.
GRAHAM: Are you saying it's not been stopped, sir?
ADiI. TURNER: I'm not saying it's not--I'm not saying it's been
stopped; I'm not saying it's not been stopped--
GRAHAM: It's been stopped, but--
ADM. TURNER: I'm neither denying or affirming your statement.
GRAHAM: --but if it's been stopped, you could discuss it, could
you not?
ADM. TURNER: No, if I deny--if I affirm that it had been stopped,
it still was a secret operation and it could not be discussed without
disclosing some of those details. And I must make the statement at this
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point that the laws of this country charge the Director of Central In-
telligence with the responsibility of protecting the sources and methods
of collecting intelligence, and I'm as intent on fulfilling that por-'
tion of the law as I am on the many other strictures of law that govern
our intelligence operations. I'll be as forthcoming with you as I pos-
sibly can today within that limit.
HERMAN: What help do you need to carry out that second function
that you mentioned? Do you need new law, new protection, to help you
do what you say you need to do--that is, to stop publication of secrets?
ADM. TURNER: There are a number of things that we can do to re-
duce the probability of unauthorized release of information. One is,
of course, to restrict the number of people who obtain that information
to the bare minimum to conduct the ligitimate business of our country.
Another is to avoid over-classification, so we don't have excessive
amounts of information in the system that can be released. Another is
to use the existing legislation, the Espionage Act, which has criminal
sanctions against the release of classified information. Another is
to use the administrative procedures that presently exist, to take
action against people in the intelligence community who release infor-
mation. And there are those who feel that we should either strengthen
the espionage law or we should.pass new administrative or civil sanc-
tions. But the end objective is to deter the release of information,
not to prosecute--
HERMAN: Where do you stand on that question of strengthening the
ADM. TURNER: I think we should look at all of these procedures,
from curtailing the use of--the distribution of information, right
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through to studying whether new sactions are needed in either criminal
or civil methods.
GRAHAM: May I pin you down on that, sir? You omitted criminal
sanctions in your first statement; now you've thrown it in here in the
end.
ADM. TURNER: No, I didn't omit them. They're in the espionage
law, which I said.
GRAHAM : We l l - -
ADM. TURNER: And I said that law may have to be strengthened.
GRAHAM: You said in your confirmation discussions that you
favored adding criminal sanctions for CIA personnel who release--who
leak information that is stamped confidential. That seemed to be some-
what in conflict with the openness of the Carter policies during his
campaign. Do you still advocate that--what some people call Official
Secrets Act?
ADM. TURNER: I do not advocate an Official Secrets Act in the
British form, because that applies to you in the press as well as to
us in the intelligence community, and that's another problem. And I
said in my confirmation hearings, I was amenable to studying admendments
to the legislation which would have criminal sanctions; and I'm still
amenable to that. But I'm also amenable to looking at whether any or
all or a combination of these other methods would do the job. What I'm
concerned with is that if a member of the Department of Agriculture
today releases information on crop futures that will help somebody make
some money, he can go to jail. If a member of the intelligence communi-
ty releases information vital to the security of this country, it's very
difficult for us to find any way to discipline him.
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WOODWARD: Admiral, it's a tradition in the Navy that after you
take over a command, within a couple of weeks, or 30 days, you sort of
give a report to your boss. What is the state of the command? Realiz-
ing you've only been there about ten days, what is the state of the
CIA? Is it good, bad? It's been a period of turmoil for that agency.
How do you find it? How would you report to the President about it?
ADM. TURNER: Well, I've been there ten days, Mr. Woodward. It's
a quick analysis; but I am impressed that after several years of con-
siderable badgering in the press, considerable criticism, the morale,
the attitude of the professionals, not only in the CIA, but in the
entire intelligency community--but I speak more for the CIA because I've
seen it more at first hand in the last ten days--the morale is quite
good. It'.s surprising that it's held up this well. It's because, in
my opinion, they are a very professional, dedicated group of men and
women; and I believe that they have in the past and they will in the
future, respond to the directions that they're given.
WOODWARD: When you said badgering by the press, do you think that
what the press has done with the CIA has been that, badgering, and been
essentially unfair?
ADM. TURNER: I think that some of it has been excessive, but I'm
not questioning in any way the right of the press to make its criti
cisms, to make its comments. I would like to see some-of it more ob-
jective and balanced, but that's all a matter of opinion.
HERMAN: Can we presume that when you took over this new command
you started to inquire among your associates or the people you are
going to command as to what problems might--what bombshells might be
lying in wait to burst over your head as the new Director? Have you
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received a catalogue of possible future problems?
ADM. TURNER: I haven',t asked that question in exactly those terms,
but I have started a careful review of all of the covert and clandes-
tine activities that are going on, so that I'm well aware of them, and
that I'm sure that in my own mind, in my own conscience, I also agree
with the valuation that has been made by many others in the oversight
process that there is nothing illegal or improper going on at this
time.
HERMAN: Nothing you encountered surprised or dismayed you?
ADM. TURNER: No, sir.
(MORE)
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GRAHAM: Admiral, you mentioned earlier your role in protecting
sources of information, and methods. If there were to be a prosecution
of congressmen or former congressmen here for accepting bribes from
the Korean CIA, and we know -- or we've been told -- that there was
some electronic surveillance by the CIA that could be used as evidence
in that case, or could be subpoenaed-by the defense -- is there a
danger here that a prosecution in the Korean bribery scandal could
expose some CIA secrets?
ADM. TURNER: Every time we're faced with a prosecution of that,
or any other sort that involves people who have dealt in the intelligence
world, there comes a question of whether you have to reveal a great
deal more classified secret information that would hurt the national.
interest in order to carry out the prosecution. It is not my judgment,.
my decision, as to whether that is the case. What I would have to do
is present to the Attorney General the information and my evaluation of
how vital it is to our national security, and he would have to deter-
mine whether or not it was worthy of prosecution.
WOODWARD: Admiral, Vice President Mondale has said in a public
interview that some CIA operations have been stopped -- some of the
covert activities. He didn't say what they were. Obviously, you're
not going to be able to say what they are, but in a general way, can
you address yourself from the point of.view of policy -- your policy,
the President's policy -- in terms of covert activities. What sort of
things, maybe hypothetically, might have been stopped?
ADM. TURNER: Well, what I would like to say is that the criteria
that I would apply, and I'm quite sure is what the Vice President has
been applying here too, is a two-fold standard. First, could this
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operation, that has been either proposed or being conducted in a covert
manner, could it be done in an overt manner? Could we get almost as
much effectiveness if we turned it around and into an overt operation?
-- and secondly, if it cannot, we must then make a very careful risk
assessment versus a benefits assessment. Do we really think that the
risk, if it is exposed, is going to be worth it because the return is
going to be great enough?
WOODWARD: So some things have been stopped?
AD'I. TURNER: Yes, a few have been stopped and --
WOODWARD: Can you say how many, and are they significant, or are
they just sort of trivial?
ADM. TURNER: I think you're pushing me past what I believe is
my legal responsibility here, I'm sorry.
HERMAN: All right, let me rescue you. Does the CIA know, do you,
Admiral Turner know, whether there are or are not Cuban advisers and
Cubans with the invading forces in Zaire?
ADM. TURNER: The CIA has a good idea about that, and it's a
difficult thing to pin down, but as a matter of fact, on the way over
here this morning I received a updated report on that, and our evalua-
tion of it. It's a very delicate and difficult thing to pin down
unless you have somebody right there on the ground, but we're keeping
an eye on that very, very carefully.
HERMAN: Don't leave us hanging. What can you tell us from the
report?
ADM. TURNER: Nothing. Nothing.
HERMAN: How about the assasination in the Congo? -- the assasi-
nation of President Ngouabi?
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ADMM. TURNER: We've been following that, of course, and it
appears a typical, internal problem there, but again, I don't. --
HERMAN: What does that mean?
ADM. TURNER: That it's something that's handled by some people
inside the Congo, not necessarily an external operation, but --
HERMAN: A large and powerful, group? A small group?
ADM. TURNER: The evidence is very, very tenuous and slim at this
point.
GRAHAM: Sir, a version of the question I asked earlier -- is
it possible that the assassination inquiry in the House of Representa-
tives could turn up information that might be compromising or
embarrassing to the CIA -- further information? .
AD??t. TURNER: Well, it's quite possible that that investigation
will require further intelligence information from our files, and we
will/as cooperative as we can, but again, somebody will have to make
-- presumably, higher authorities -- the decision whether or not it is
worth the disclosure of this information in order to carry that inves-
tigation forward.
GRAHAM: Well, of what nature would that be? You obviously have
something specific in mind.
ADM. TURNER: No, I don't have anything specific in mind. I
haven't really probed into that one in my ten days thus far, Mr.
Graham, but I'm waiting until I'm called upon for any information that
that inquiry committee may require, and if so, we'll dig it out and
find out what it is and evaluate the risk to the country of disclosing
it, and pass that along..
WOODWARD: Sir, if a low-level CIA employee thinks he or she
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knows of some activity that is going on that shouldn't be going on, and
they call your office, say, and speak to your executive assistant and
say, I'd like to see Admiral Turner -- will you see that person?
ADM. TURNER: I would certainly hope so. I don't know of every
phone call that comes into my office, but my instructions would be to
do that, but let me elaborate on that, because it raises a very inter-
esting point, and one I think it's valuable for the people of this
country to understand about our intelligence operations. We have,
under an Executive Order, signed by President Ford just over a year
ago, a definite procedure to be sure that that kind of an inquiry is
not stopped. That person could, instead of coming to me, go directly
to what is known as an intelligence oversight board that was just
created this year ago -- three very distinguished senior gentlemen --
and present that complaint, or that problem to that board. That board
would review it, make its recommendations, send it to the President
of the United States. This is also augmented by required periodic
reports from the generals counsel and the inspectors general of all of
the intelligence community, so that that oversight board and its
reports-to the President are a very fine review, a very fine set of
checks and balances to insure the people of this country that the in-
telligence community is being carefully monitored.
GRAHAM: Sir, have any agents done that -- any CIA people gone
to that board?
ADM. TURNER: I have not any word of individuals doing it, but
the periodic reports from the inspectors general and the generals
counsel have gone to that board. In effect --
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GRAHAM: well, then it may be that there is some -- something
about it that's -- either you have a very clean shop over there it may be that there's something there that's intimidating to a
lower level person to go to a Presidential board -- is that possible?
ADM. TURNER: I don't believe that's the case, but I didn't say
there have been none, I simply said in ten days I haven't asked that
question, and I just -- I'm unable, honestly, to answer it at this
point.
GRAHAM: Sir, do you believe that there is a need for further
legislation to make clear -- clearer --.that the CIA is not to be in-
volved in such domestic spying as the opening of mail, or other things
that were revealed in the recent investigations?
ADM. TURNER: I think it's a fine line between whether the Execu-
tive Order put out by the President, or a piece of legislation by the
Congress, is needed, but in my opinion at this stage, there is no
question about the orders. We're carrying them out, we're not in the
intelligence business inside the United States, that's the FBI's
domain.
WOODWARD: Admiral, there's a lot of focus on who assists some-
body at the top. The President's aides get a lot of publicity, and
we know who they are. Who are your chief assistants at the CIA? Are
they people you've known for a long time, that you brought in, -- Just
two or three top people you deal with -- who are they and what is
their background?
ADM. TURNER: I have three deputies who report to me. One is
the deputy for the Central Intelligence Agency -- his name is Mr.
Henry Knoche. He is a career CIA officer. I did not know him before
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I came into this association. Another is a deputy for what is known
as the intelligence community, who helps coordinate this entire opera-
tion. He just happens to be another admiral of the Navy, Admiral
Daniel Murphy, and I've known him for many years, and have a close
personal association. The third is a deputy for what is known as
National Intelligence Estimates, and here I have just about completed
negotiations with a distinguished academician to come and join me here,
a man I've worked with in the past, and who has a very fine record,
both in the government and in academia --
GRAHAIVI: Who is that?
ADM. TURNER: and who will take that, and I'm not quite ready
to announce that at this time, but I think you'll be very pleased with
him when I do.
HERMAN: Reviewing my notes here, I find a little bit of a
loose end. You said early on in the program that the Soviet Union is
trying to make up for its deficiencies by military development aimed
at becoming the dominant world power. Are they succeeding? Will they
be the dominant world power, and when?
ADM. TURNER: I don't think so, because, among other things,
I think the will and resolve of the people of the. United States is
too great to permit that.
HERMAN: But I think I have to ask, is the situation now de-
veloping agreeably to you? Are you pleased with the way the balance
of power is now developing? -- or are you talking about future
changes?
ADM. TURNER: I think that the military balance is gradually
eroding towards the Soviet side. I think that we can and will be able
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to redress that, because again, I believe that the people of the United
States are perceiving
HERMAN: When
massive new military
ADH. TURNER:
HERMAN : What
ADM. TURNER:
enough resources and
this need.
you say redress it, are you talking about a
program on our part?
No, I don't think that's going to be necessary.
is?
I think it's going'to be necessary that we put
enough attention, enough interest into this to
realize where we have to strengthen ourselves, but it isn't only in
the military sphere, we must continue to have a strong economic posi-
tion for this country, and parochially, I must say, we must continue
to have a strong intelligence function. I'm persuaded that we can
have it because we have the basic foundation in fine men and women in
your intelligence community who are dedicated to that purpose.
HERMAN: You put that in the future -- we can have it. Do we
now not have it?
ADM. TURNER: We do have it now, yes.
GRAHAM: Are any of them reporters?
ADP4. TURNER: Any -- there are no American newsmen of any
kind on the payroll of the intelligence community of your country, and
there will not be.
WOODWARD: Are you going to monitor carefully the Strategic
Arms Limitation Talks and see what we do and --
ADM. TURNER: Yes, very closely, and my job, as I see it, is
to advise whether we can verify what is agreed. That is one of the
greatest contributions we're going to make -- is the ingenuity of the
intelligence community in being able to let us go ahead with arms
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negotiations.
HERMAN: Thank you, very much, Admiral Turner, for being our
guest on Face The Nation.
ADM. TURNER: Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: Today on FACE THE NATION, the Director of Central
Intelligence, Admiral Stansfield Turner, was interviewed by CBS News
Correspondent Fred Graham, by Bob Woodward, Reporter for The Washington
Post, and by CBS News Correspondent George Herman. Next week, another
prominent figure in the news will FACE THE NATION.
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