NOTE TO DCI FROM HERBERT E. HETU
Document Type:
Collection:
Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST):
CIA-RDP80B01554R002800270001-6
Release Decision:
RIPPUB
Original Classification:
K
Document Page Count:
43
Document Creation Date:
December 12, 2016
Document Release Date:
August 9, 2001
Sequence Number:
1
Case Number:
Publication Date:
June 16, 1978
Content Type:
NOTES
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After your Ad Council talk in the Bubble,
wY
Central Intelligence Agency
Washington, D.C. 20505
(703) 351-7676
Herbert E. Hetu
Director of Public Affairs
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PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
INCLUDING QUA
Washington, D. C.
Tuesday, June 13, 1978
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DIRECTOR STANSFIELD TURNER: We're very pleased
to have you with us here this evening. We're very pleased
that you're this interested in the state of American in-
telligence. If there's one conviction that we all have here,
it is that it takes the support of the populace of this country
for any governmental institution like this to flourish. And
we're pleased, because of your important role in informing the
country in many ways, that you're interested in hearing about
what we are doing.
And I'd like to talk about a few of the trends in
American intelligence, in part because one of those trends
I think is a direct and increasing interface with the American
business community, with which you, of course, have so much
contact. There's been a symbiotic, a friendly, a traditional
relationship between our American intelligence agencies and
the American business community for many years. It's been
a very useful and most proper flow of information from the
business community to us, We never want to go out and use
expensive, risky, clandestine means of collecting information
when it's available within the American body. And so we're
very grateful when business will share some of their overseas
experience with us when it's applicable and do it in, as I say,
a quite proper way.
But there're been changes. There're trends in the way.
we are doing intelligence and in what we are doing today which
are opening up possibilities for us to help make this a more
reciprocal relationship, one in which the product of our efforts
can be of use to the American businessman, we hope.
Let me explain why I believe this. If you look back
to when we first organized thirty-one years ago a Central In-
telligence activity in our country, the primary product that
we were concerned with was information about Soviet military
activity. If you look today at what the product of your
intelligence community should be, I think it's apparent to
all of you that while the Soviet's military element is a very
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important one, i+ is rot as dominant today as it was thirty
years ago, when we were thirty years ago -'he leading economic
power of the world and certainly the dominant political power,
as well, of course, possessing vast military superiority.
Over these intervening years, we have been required
to develop interlocking relationships, contac+s on the economic
and political spheres with many, many more countries than he
Soviet Union. And most of those contacts are much more active,
much more important to us today than they were when we held
such a dominant position on the world scene. As a result,
we in the intelligence business are doing a great deal more
in both political and economic intelligence today than we
did in the past. We're very concerned at the economic growth
rates of countries like Japan and the Federal FZepublic of
Germany, because those growth rates have an impact on you and
me and our dollar and our pocketbooks and our taxes.
We're interested in how much grain the Soviets are
going to produce next year. Like last year 194 million tons,
or the year before 223 million: the difference affects us,
as you remember of he Great Grain Robery of 1973 when they
entered -the market unexpectedly because they had a shortfall.
We're interested in the world energy situation, because we
happen to believe constrictions in energy in four or five years
are likely to force a slowdown of economic growth around the
world, let alone force an increase in the price of energy which
will be reflected in your life and mine on a daily basis.
So today we have to look at these other aspects of
our relationships with the rest of the woric.:. And in recent
years we've had to get into such esoteric fields as anti-
terrorism and how can we help combat international terrorism,
how can we find out what their plans and intentions are and
thwart ilnternational terrorist activity or help protect people
.who are going to be subjected to it. And how can we combat
international drug trafficking and try to help supress it from
the source, and certainly from importation into our country,
without our getting into the law enforcement end of it, but
getting Into the intelligence end of helping the country
defend itself by knowing what's going on in those areas.
These are new. They're demanding challenges 'to us.
I don't want to in any way suggest that being well aware of
Soviet military activity is not number one on our list. (t's
got to be. It's the number one threat to our country, and we've
got to continue to give it top priority. What I'm suggesting to
you is we're having to expand; we're having to develop new areas
of expertise, new talents, new methods of analysis, new methods
of collecting intelligence in order to satisfy these other critical
needs for our country.
Because we're in greater economic analysis, I think we
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have greater opportunities to be of benefit to the American busi-
ness community. And that relates to one of the other trends +ha+
I'd like to discuss with you, and that's a trend toward greater
openness in American intelligence today. As I'm sure you're
aware and would expect, our intelligence, as most in he
world, has always operated on the basis of maximum secrecy
and minimum disclosure. I happen to think that's an in-
appropriate policy for intelligence in the United States
today. I happen to think that after the years of exposure
that we've had of criticism and bad press over the last three
of four years, the American public deserves to know more about
what we are doing and why. And as I said at the beginning,
only if we have that understanding can we expect to survive
as an institution of our country.
The country accepted us on faith for about twenty-
five years. Since the inquiries, since the criticisms, +hat's
not the case. And therefore, we must come forward and justify
our existence and show you a return on your tax dollar.
How are we doing that? We're responding more forth-
rightly when asked inquiries from the media within the limits
of necessary secrecy that I'll talk about in a bit. We're
attending conferences. We're asking you to join us here, and
we're speaking more. And we're also publishing more. And let
me explain how we do that. We're publishing more that I think
will be of value to you as citizens and, in particular, to the
American businessman. When we do a study, having got a lot of
intelligence date gathered and sifted it out and sorted it and
tried to put the pieces together and come to some useful con-
clusion for our national policy-makers, we look at it and we
say if we took two things out of this, could we publish this and
make it public. The first thing is how we got some of the informa-
tion, because if you disclose that, you may never get it again.
Secondly, information which gives our President, our Congress
unique advantages in makign decisions, because they know this
and other people don't know that they know.
If we take those two things out and then say to our-
selves that there's still enough information here that's meaningful
and useful that it will add to the quality of American debate on
this topic, we publish it.
Twenty minutes ago I was in a meeting on a new forecast
of the Soviet economy in the next decade and which way it1s going
to go. We published one just last year, and in that one we said
we see several factors that are going to constrict economic growth
to the Soviet Union. And that's going to impact on American
business, because they're not going to have the foreign exchange
to enter the market for our products. We've just revisited that,
and, as I say, a few minutes ago, I put a general approval on
the study that we've re-done and said how long before we can
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take it from its present classified form into an unclassified.
one. And they said a couple of weeks. And we'll +hen publish
it, hope that it will be helpful to others. You may remember
that with some controversy a year ago April, we published
a world energy prospect. This was a study, that had been
underway for a year and a half around here. We think it's
a very important one; it's a controversial one. Not every-
body agrees with us. What we've really said is not what's
been reported sometimes. What we said is we think in the
next seven, eight years the world -- the world would not be
able to get as much erergy out of the ground, as much oil,
as It would like to consume. Not that the oil isn't down
there, but that between now and about 198;, we're not going
to be able to get it out or find alternatives at a rapid
enough pace, like nuclear or solar or other energy, to
satisfy our overall need. And therefore, energy will very
likely be a constraint on economic activity sometime between
now and 1985, or thereabouts.
We published that. It was controversial. We hope
it helped to focus debate on an important issue. And the
controversy, in turn, fed back to us. It sharpens us. it
keeps us on our toes. And it helps us, as we listen to the
criticism, say "Where should we focus our intelligence collec-
tion effort over the next four or five years to see whether
it's going the way we thought or the way somebody else thought."
So it's useful In both directions. We've revisited that study.
We will re-publish It shortly, and generally Our conclusions
have not changed substantially in the past year.
We published studies on interna~-ional terrorism and
the impact they will have on American business, and unfortunately
we are predicting that. we see no pressures, no trend to lead us
to believe that there"s going to be a substantial decline in this
unfortunate activity.
Now let me not overstate the case. There's no way
we can be completely open. We're an intelligence organization,
and much of what we do cannot be done if it's not done In
secret. Much of what we learn and analyze is of no value to
our decision markers if it's simply broadcast on the street.
And there are lots of problems in our country today with re-
spect to keeping as much secret as we absolutely need to.have
secret in order to conduct a useful and a fruitful intelligence
activity.
One threat is just, pure and simple, espionage. We've
had a number of cases of important industrial espionage. I
guess "important" wasn't a very good choice of words. But
catastrophic industrial espionage In recent years. And in-
dustrial espionage is the primary focus of the Soviet Union
today, sometimes in the military intelligence spheres, but
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also in the plain industrial processes and techniques which
the Soviets are trying to gain and emulate. We believe +hat
there's more attention needed in American industry to prevent-
ing this. And we're working hard with industry to move in that
direction.
But a second real problem is that of leaks, many
of which, I'm afraid, come out of the government, not out of
industry. And these are a very serious problem also, and we're
working on it in many different ways. But it's not an easy
one, as I'm sure you appreciate. But some of the leaks that
we've had in recent months have been of very serious import
to our credibility as an intelligence agency for our country
and our ability to continue collecting information, either
by working with other human beings around the world who
are beginning to lose faith in us if we can't keep secret
our relationships with people like themselves, or by our
technical means of collecting information, almost any one
of which has a countermeasure if people think about It and
work on it enough. When you start exposing how you go about
doing these things, the countermeasures appear, and they appear
very rapidly.
Now some people feel that there may be a contradiction
between a trend towards greater openness and an emphasis on
greater withholding of our necessary secrets. I don't happen
to think there is. I happen to think one of the greatest
threats to secrecy in our country today is a lack of respect
for the secret label on a document. There are too many secrets.
Churchill once said when everything is secret, nothing is secret.
And we've come too close to that in fact.
So by attempting to declassify and publish, make
available to the public as much as we can within the limits
I have described to you, we hope to reduce the amount of classi-
fied information and garner greater respect for that which remains
and hope thereby to tighten the noose around the true secrets.
After all, some of these rogues who've gone off and written books
or given interviews or appeared on TV and covered information
that they should not have have really done so, in large measure,
as a lack of respect, a lack of understanding and appreciation
of the importance of the information that they were giving away.
And we've come to a time in our country where we've given too
much credence, too much respect to those people who have s'o-
called blown whistles, and whatnot. And one does not want to
denigrate the importance of contributions like Woodward and
Bernstein's to our society. But if we don't find the proper
balance sometime soon so that every individual doesn't feel
that it's his province to decide what should be classified and
what should be unclassified for our country, all 215,000,000
of us, that's pure chaos. And I think it's about time that
we restored a modicum of trust and confidence in the elected
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and appointed officials who make these decisions on what can
be released and what must be withheld from the public.
But I'm not asking or suggestin, than the public
simply take us on fai4-h. I'm suggesting 40 you that s+i l l
another trend in American intelligence today is a greater
oversight process. Now, there's a contradiction in having
public oversight and having any degree of secrecy. So what
we are evolving in this country -- and it's an exciting
period and process -- is what I call surroga+e public over-
sight. And the surrogates for the public are numerous.
First, there's the President and Vice President,
who today take a very keen interest in intelligence, not only
in the product, but in the process and how we're going about
it. I meet with the President once a week and explain to him
what we're doing, answer his questions and assure that he is
well and thoroughly informed on what we are doing that would
be of a concern and interest to him.
Another surrogate is one that he has appointed,
the intelligence Oversight Board, three gentlemen, former
Governor Scranton former Senator Gore, Mr. Tom Farmer of
this city, who report only to the President, and +hey work
only on questions of legality and propriety of Intelligence
activities. If this scoundrel Herb, or any of these other
people around here think I'm doing something wrong, they write
to or communicate wits the Intelligence Oversight Board; don't
have to go through me. And that board investigates it, reports
only to the President1- what they think happened and what should
be done.
Perhaps the most important oversight process that
has been established in recent months has been the two commit-
tees of the Congress,, one in +he Senate, one in the House of
Representatives, each to oversee the intelligence process. And
I think they're doing a splendid job. They keep us on our
toes. They keep us up there telling them what's going on,
reporting to them, and we're finding the right balance. But
it's going to take time to settle it out between that degree
of oversight which will give them a check, a control, which
will give me a sense of relationship to the American public
and what it understands and what it wants and expects from
us, and what at the same time will not provide such a large
forum for discussing all these very sensitive issues that we
end up with too many leaks.
We're going through this process today of establishing
a relationship with our oversight bodies. li can't tell you
that It's working perfectly or that it's going to work as
perfectly as we hope it will. I'm confiden?,. I'm optimistic,
but it's going to take a year or two, perhaps a little longer
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to really iron it out and to see +o it tha+ we don't end up
with intelligence by timidi+y because we're worried about leaks
or we're worried about too much oversight, but that we do end
up wi+h +hat proper balance of control, +hat proper balance
of oversight that will reflect the American values.
The President, as Herb mentioned in his remarks
in early February, signed a new order reorganizing the in-
telligence community and somewhat strengthening my authorities
as the Director of Central Intelligence -- that's the role in
which I am empowered to coordinate all of the intelligence
activities, not just those of the agency, the Central In-
telligence Agency. And his objective here was to move in
the direction of these trends that I've been describing to
you. For instance, he gave me new authority to manage the
budgets of all of the intelligence activities, whether
they're resident in the Department of Defense or the Central
Intelligence Agency, or elsewhere. And that's been very helpful
in bringing this community together. He gave me authority to
dovetail the analytic effort of the intelligence community.
That's very important, and there is a very important and fine
distinction here, because we do two things in intelligence:
we collect information and we analyze it.
Now in analyzing it, you want to be very careful
that you let.divergent views come forward, because when you're
pulling all these diverse, miniscule pieces together into a
puzzle, it's not always exactly clear what the picture is
going to say, and different people interpret it differently.
So in strengthening my Director of Central Intelligence authori-
ties here, the President has been very careful that we maintain
an independent analytic capability in the Defense Department
and in the State Department, and here at the Central Intelligence
Agency. And they work with, but compete with each other, so
that we do have different views at all times.
On the other hand, his order also strengthened my
authority to control these collection elements, how we go out
and get the information. That's expensive; it's risky. We
don't want more duplication than we can possibly minimize here.
We want to see to it that the effort is well coordinated. We
don't want this hand looking to the right, and this one looking
to the left, and no one looking down the middle. We don't
want somebody collecting on part of the problem and nobody
else collecting on the other part. We want to be sure that
everything is brought together so that the gaps in what one
intelligence collection capability can leave you are filled
by another one. So I am now empowered to control all of the
collection elements as to what they do day by day.
And finally, +he President's new order established
a committee of the Na+ional Security Council to give me overall
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direction as +o what our priorities are. It's not we in intelli-
gence who should decide wha+'s mos+ impor+an} for the country to
know today and tornorrow. I+'s for +he people who are going to
use 1+, the consumers. And that's what +his new committee
will do.
So with these trends that I am tried to describe to
you of greater emphasis on economic and poli+ical intelligence,
greater openness on the one hand, but a very high concern for
keeping secret what must be kept secret on the other, and a
more thorough oversight process, I think +ha+ the trends in
intelligence today are for greater effective_nss for our country.
I believe we have the best intelligence service in the world.
There's no reason we cannot keep it that way. I assure you
that every one of us here is dedicated to doing just that.
Thank you.
[Applause..
I'd be happy to try to respond to your questions.
General Grunther, you always have a question. How
are you tonight, sir? Nice to see you. In the back.
Q: 3ecause of all the sniping -'hat's taken place,
I'm very curious about the morale of the organization. I
should think i+ would be a most difficult job for you to
recruit and keep high morale with some of these nuts around
Washington.
DIRECTOR TURNER: That's a good point and one I
appreciate.
Very fortunately, to take the morale thing first --
I mean the recruiting part first, we believe that the recruit-
ing has picked up even through the criticism period in 1974
till now. Recently, as you may have noted, we placed an ad
in the New York Times. We got a little publicity out of that.
And we got two and a half times as many applicants in the last
couple of months as we've had in any spring period in the past.
We recruit on a hundred fifty campuses. We think
we're getting very good talent. And I'm 'impressed by the!
young men and women I see joining our intelligence organization.
There is no question that we've had years of intense
criticism, of being exposed to the public for almost the first
time. And then being exposed in a critical way has had a definite
impact on morale in ojr Intelligence community. I think we're
pulling out of it. And I can only say that the people here
are so fine that despite the discouragement that comes from
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being criticized and seeing distortions in the press to which
you cannot respond frequently, +hat I have a great faith that
they have continued +o do their work just as well, and tha+
their morale will return in time.
Le+ me give you an example. I talked with one of
our more senior people the o'her day. A couple of years ago
he had a son in a liberal Eastern college. And you know, his
son was miffed +hat his father worked in the CIA. Now after
you've been here twenty or thirty years, that gets to you.
It's tough on people when the public attitude is such +hat
what you joined as an honorable profession and what you've
dedicated your life to -- and I assure you that the people in
this profession -- and I'm a newcomer to it; and I'm not boasting
to you at all -- they make as many sacrifices personally in the
name of trying to serve their country as do any people in our
government.
Q: What are the qualifications you look for in
recruiting....?
DIRECTOR TURNER: What are the qualifications for
One'of the big qualifications is some experience
after college. We like to get people who've been out and
done most anything for a couple of years. Why? Because
those who join our clandestine side, who go overseas and
are operators over +here, have big responsibilities on their
shoulders. And we like somebody who's got just a little extra
sense of maturity.
On our analytic side, the people who are open and
above board and work here on analyzing the information collected,
we have a surprising diversity of intellectual disciplines re-
presented here. Yes, +here are a lot of history and English
type majors, or political scientists who have broad views on
the world political scene. But we have people in psychiatry,
biology, chemistry, almost any skill that you go to.
So when young people come to me and say "What should
I tell you if I want to join the organization?," I say study
what you're good at, because we've got it here in some degree.
Yes, ma'am.
Q: Can you hold out any hope that terrorism, world
terrorism will be brought under control?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Any hope that world terrorism will
be brought under control? The one small hope or ray of hope
that I see is that the intelligence agencies of the world are
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cooperating almost wholeheartedly in this one area, not communist
versus noncommunis+, specifically. But we and all our Wes+ Euro-
pean allies, for ins+ance, have a very close and complete exchange
of information on this. That's no+ a big hope, I'm afraid. i
think 1t basically is going +o take a s+iffening of attitudes
in all of our societies. We're talking more about the European
one because we get less, and partly because I think our society
doesn't wan+ to tolera+e that, plus we have +o stand up and
be counted on +he street corner when some of these things
happen. I'm not sure +ha+'s always the case.
But I'm not able to give you any real big encourage-
ment, I'm afraid.
Q: My question's related to the first one. Doesn't
the new -- +he various exposures and the layers of oversight
make it difficult to develop foreign sources of information....?
DIRECTOR TURNER: The disclosures are very serious
in that regard. If We don't close +hem off, +he leaks off
so that people overseas have confidence they can work with us
-- foreign intelligence agencies, individuals iln countries
abroad -- we won't be able to have that kind of capability
in four or five years.. I'm worried about +he long-term impact.
It is -- it is a very serious one.
The oversight process I believe will work out to
where it is not a risk. Well, any time you tell anybody a
secret, it's a risk. But I think we will work out a process,
are working out a process with the Congress whereby that over-
sigh+ can be kept within bounds.
I was up there all last week talking about Cubans
in Zaire on a very highly classified basis. There was one
leak the firs+ day, and I stood up and complained the next
three days, and +here hasn't been a leak since. I think his
is an educational process. And I have found the Congress co-
operative, understanding. You have problems from time to time.
But I think it will work itself out. And as I say, it takes
some time.
Q: I'd like to ask you, because we're not aware of
+he industrial sabotage problem, would you give us an example
of some of this that we may not have known?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Is the country aware of the industrial
espionage problem, and can I give an example.
I'm not sure +he country's well aware of it. But in
December, 1976, two young men named Boik [?) and Lee, who worked
in a contractor's plant in Los Angeles, a contractor that had a
major program with us here in the Intelligence world, were ar-
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rested. They'd been taking documents out of the plant, shipping
them. down to Mexico City and transferring +hem to the Soviet Union
there. They were caught in Mexico City and returned to he
United States, and +hey have since both been convicted and
sentenced to jail.
Here in Washington, D. C., and the date slips me;
it was before I got here, but I think the fall of '76, a
former employee of the agency threw a package over the
fence around the Soviet Embassy on 16th Street. Fortunately,
from what I read of it, the Soviets thought it might be a
bomb, so they called for the fire department. [Laughter.]
We go+ our package back and the man in jail.
[Laughter.]
Detente, in my opinion, is a net plus for our
country. From an espionage point of view, it's a net minus.
We are more open to their coming in here, because still, de-
spite detente, an American walking down +he street in Moscow
is a much more obvious foreigner than a Soviet walking down
the street in Washington.
Q: [Inaudible.]
DIRECTOR TURNER: Well, in response to the first
one as to why we may not have taken into account all of the
efforts of the Soviet Union to use alternative sources of
energy, you have to keep in mind our study talks about between
now and 1985. And what we tried to do was project what develop-
ments, either in conservation or in greater use of coal, might
take place before that. time. And we feel that a decline in
production of the Soviets' oil fields is going to be greater
than these other alternatives can be in that period.
Now, over the longer haul, number one, they've got
lots of oil in +he ground. And number two, you can convert
many more plants to coal, and so on, in that period of time.
Your question on the United States was similar, wasn't=
Q: Yes.
DIRECTOR TURNER: As far as the United States was
concerned, what we were predicting was based on +he conservation
laws that were in effect, not taking into account any marked
improvements on the President's energy bill, which is still
being debated. And we could improve somewhat if we conserve
more in the next few years. It was trying to take into account
nuclear power plants and other conversions to coal, and so on,
that will be coming along. But of course, as you're well aware
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in +he energy business, the ra+e of construction of nuclear
power plan+s in our country and in the world is down very
precipitately from what had been predicted just three or
four or five years ago. The rate of additions of +ha+
kind of alternative has slowed markedly. And again, the
concern simply was +ha+ in +his seven year time frame, there
wasn't enough potential +ha+ could be brought on to he line
in a practical way.
Q: What form of redress is there to leaks by
members of government, particularly in Congress, and in
your opinion is it adequate?
DIRECTOR TURNER: That's a political explosive
question., [Laughter.] We have a very antequa+ed espionage
law under which the two cases I mentioned were prosecuted.
You have to be caught giving it to a foreign power, no+
leaking it to The Washington Post. I think tha+'s still
not a foreign power.
So --here is not a good law that applies specifically
to +hat kind of a leak, if it isn't real espionage. When you
join the Central Intelligence Agency, you must sign a secrecy
agreement tha+ says you will let us check your manuscripts
for classified information before they're published. Next
week I go to.+es+ify in the first case we've taken to court
of an individual, a former employee named Snepp who published
a book w i thou4- providing us an opportunity to review it and
after express'y promising me himself tha4 he wouldn't so do
i+. So we asked the Attorney General and he has brought him
to court. And the results of that case will in some sense
determine how +ha+ segment of the government is treated; that
is if the case is upheld, and that will strengthen +he use of
our secrecy agreement as a legal means of enforcing +his issue.
Beyond that, it's very difficult for me to say what
could best help us next. There're some people who would like
to have much tighter legislation. There are problems here
with the First Amendment, and all of us respect the need and
the right of the press In our country to be free, to be able
to get information. I'm personally am concentrating on ways
within our government to close the gap by making people more
conscious of the problem. Every couple of nights -- well, not
+hat often, but every so often as you walk out of +his building,
your briefcase is inspected. Conscientious people often take
classified material tome to work on it. But that just is not
acceptable. As much as I' like to get another couple of hours'
work out of them, I'm more concerned with the security. And
it's not, you know, that that individual is all that likely to
do something wrong with It. It's the engendering of an attitude
of carelessness or casualness about protecting this information.
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-13-
So I haven'+ answered your question very directly.
But we're in a major debate within the government as to whether
we should try to get additional legislation. We're sort of
waiting to see how this first case comes out.
Q: To what extent are you seeking cooperation from
those who are civilians who either are assigned overseas for
a period of time, or +ravelling overseas, in carrying out your
activities?
DIRECTOR TURNER: We're very -- very much seeking
your help and advice. We have a section of +he Central In-
telligence Agency called the Domestic Collection Division,
which is totally open, listed in the phone book in thirty-
five cities in our country. We maintain regular relationships
with many American corporations. We protect them as sources
as much as we try to protect undercover sources overseas. At
the same time it's purposely above board and it's not any
clandestine type of relationship.
We find this very valuable to us. As I did say
earlier, it's just not right to go out and spend money and
take risks to get information that is readily available. We
have on several occasions been able by simply going to Ameri-
can industry -and saying "What's happening here?," to find that
Company A was selling twenty-five of something to he Soviet
Union, Company B was.selling twenty-five more, Company C was
selling seventy-five of them, and when you added it all up,
you find that it was interesting and alarming whereas any
one of the individual statements was no+ all that significant.
I+ was only because it was our job to go and collate the in-
formation that we got it.
And we're very grateful for the cooperation we have
from American business.
Q: ...Two or three issues that are on your mind
as you look to the future for the next five years?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Well. [Laughter.] What two or
three issues are on my mind as I look ahead.
I think that the overall energy and economic Issues
that the world faces and how we avoid the kind of recession
,that developed out of the '73-'74 oil price rise. How we
make sure we don't, if we did in fact have one, get into a
dog-eat-dog contest that drives everybody and their economies
down. How you handle the Japanese situation.
We had a lecturer here this afternoon. We have
sort of enrichment lectures once in a while here, and you
get a distinguished individual in. And they had Professor
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Reischauer today talking about Japan. And he said, "You know,
what you're toiling the Japanese today is the rules have changed."
The rules used to be we're all for free +rade; we're all for
everybody ge+"ing out doing his best, every man for himself.
That's our basic economic credo in this country. Now we're
telIing the Japanese "No, no, +he rules are you've got to slow
down; you're doing too well." And that's really what we're
doing. And it's understandable, and it's quite proper, and
there're a lot of arguments on both sides of this. But
you know, how do you solve tha+ problem? How you get the
Japanese to play the game is going to be very critical to
all of us.
Secondly, there's just no way you cannot be concerned
at the amount of tension and +he amount of resources the Sovie+s
are giving to their military posture, coupled with the fact,
as demonstrated in recent months, they're finding a new way
to employ that military posture. Today they have close to
military pari"y. They have more resources today available
to give away, to loan, to use as they've been doing, coupled
with a very good military power, the Cubans; coupled with
+he availability of a high capacity airlift where they can
meet other people's needs quickly.
Another one, as I see it, is that we have the long-
term strength. We have the economic wherewithal, we have the
technical knowledge to help Third World countries to pull them-
selves up by -the bootstraps. But in the short term, many of
them, wi+h unsettled conditions in their countries or on +heir
borders, are looking for and wan+ the military help. We're
no+ as anxious to get into that game, because it isn't the
long-term productive thing for them. So we've got to handle
+he short-term Soviet threat in that kind of a sphere so
our long-term forces will come to bear. It's an interesting
and difficult problem all around the world.
Those are z couple of things.
[Laughter. i
Q: [Inaudible.]
Is that all right?
DIRECTOR TURNER: I'm really not sure I understand
your question.
Q: Was there anything startling that you've learned
since you came....?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Oh, okay.
Q: Any changes that you'd make.
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DIRECTOR TURNER: Well, I've never tried to be a
noncontroversial fellow, and I've stirred up some controversy
to make some changes here. This is a marvelous organization,
but it's got a couple of characteristics +ha+ I +hough+
were ripe for change. It's a young organization. I+'s
31 years old this September. And I think its personnel
management system is just getting settled down, because
we got a lot of marvelous people in at the beginning and
they've been going through he system, but after thirty
years they're beginning to leave. And we haven't -- as I
said, it's a very operationally oriented group, and, you
know, getting the job done was their first thing -- set up
all the management personnel management tools that you need
.here to insure people of a good prospect and a good career when
+hey come in.
So a great deal of my effort and attention has been
levied on the personnel situation. I'm told to build for 1988,
because if we don't worry about that, we won't be blessed by the
quality of people we have now.
I have on one or two occasions found it necessary
to combat what I felt was too much of a familial attitude
here. This is a relatively small organization, and it's a
very tight knit one and a very family oriented one. But we're
in the big time, and you can't manage when you have these changes
over the last ten or fifteen years in the way you collect intel-
ligence, many more technical, sophisticated systems. You can't
manage the old plant in the same way. And sometimes +hatts
tough on the people whose skills are no longer needed. And
we've had to do some....
Q: Could you comment on the CIA here vis-a-vis +he
Russian counterpart?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Yes. The Russian counterpart is
called the KGB. It's much larger than we are. They put a
tremendous amount of manpower !not it. We will never attempt
or want to match them in what we call human intelligence
collection, spies that they turn out in great numbers. That's
one reason I say we suffer under detente from an intelligence
point of view.
From a technical intelligence collection point of
view, because of our technical capabilities in this country,
we are well ahead of them.
On the third aspect, the first two being ways of
collecting intelligence, the third being what I refer to as
analyzing and estimating it, I have the conviction +hat in
a free society you can get much better free analysis than
you can In a dictatorial society. And I think we'll always
stay ahead of them in interpretation of +he informa+ion collected.
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You can afford in this building to come +o a conclusion that
President Car+er doesr'+ like. I don't know that you can
do that in +he KGB under President Brezhnev.
[Laugh+er.J
Q: [Inaudible.]
DIRECTOR TURNER: Yes. Yes, it's possible. That's,
of course, one of the ways +hey go about i+. And we've uncovered
that in recent months, that type of activity where an American,
a plain traitor to his country, was working in a corporation
and passing Information on out.
Q: But not a Russian per se.
DIRECTOR TURNER: I+'s unlikely to be a Russian,
per se. That's correct. Or if he is, he's somebody who
has come over here wi4h enough savoir faire +o disguise him-
self as not being a Russian. There are some of +hose around
+hat get into the country somehow and get themselves estab-
lished as a European or some non-Soviet type.
Q: Is I+ '-rue +hat the CIA has an unlimited
budge+?
DIRECTOR TJRNER: Absolutely no+.
[Laugh+er._i
You should be around here when -the budge+ debates
go on, right now. And you know, we debate; about five more
people or very small sums of money comparatively. And our
budge+ Is under very close scrutiny by these oversight com-
mittees and the appropriation committees of +he Congress.
Four committees look at our budget, and I can assure you
it's as thoroughly scrubbed as any department's budge+.
It just is not published. But to some extent you have
things not thoroughly scrubbed, because no+ every member
of Congress looks at it, though they don't all look at
every detail of the Agriculture budget ether, I'm sure,
or the Justice Department's, or anyone else's.
But the information is available to every member
by going to the oversight committees.
Q: Recently we heard that the American Embassy
had been bugged in Russia. Is this very prevalent throughout
the world? And has i'- damaged our in+eliigence effectiveness?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Well, this is very prevalent in
Moscow. We had the b'ig seal with its bug in i+ twen+y-five
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years ago in our Embassy +here. The Soviets gave us this
seal, and it had a bug in i+. [Laughter.] This is a egregious
event where +hey tunneled under our building, put devices of
one sort or another in i+. I'm sure that it happens else-
where, but I think this, as I said, is an egregious case.
We have not yet been able to technically determine the
extent of +he damage. It's a very complex technical issue.
Yes, ma'am.
Q: With the collection and analysis of classified
information, do you use outside contacts....?
DIRECTOR TURNER: Yes. We have a balance here,
and we're very tightly held down by the Congress as to how
much contracting out we do. And you can see their point on
the one hand. It's just another way to increase your staff,
that you misuse it to just, you know, hire people. If you hire
them for a specific task that has, you know, a limited frame and
time, that's much more likely, much more useful.
In addition, we have a group of about thirty to
thirty-five consultants we keep sort of in the wings. And
when we do a.major study, we look at the list of +hem and
say "Which are most appropriate to this? Which complement
our own in-house talents?" And we ask two, three, four of
+hem to come in for a few days at the beginning, a few days
in the middle, and at the end +hat work with us and make
sure that we haven't overlooked some major point. And they're
very, very helpful to us. Some are academics. Some are from
other areas of life.
Q: Sir, would you care to comment on your assess-
ment of the Soviet long-term interests in the Middle Eastern
oil?
DIRECTOR TURNER: The Soviets' long-term interest
in Middle Eastern oil? That I think goes back to the czars,
not to the Soviet Union even. And they're looking out.
Well, I'm just only going to emphasize that, yes,
I think they have a thirst for the warm water, now the oil
of the Middle East, but it goes back before oil was ever
significant even. And if you take seriously our energy
forecasts for the Soviet Union, it means that they've got
to be more and more interested in it. Their recent move
into Afghanistan -- it's not to an oil nation, but it's
moving down into that area, and it has +he Iranians very
worried.
Q: I have one question, Admiral Turner, maybe
the final one, because we appreciate your time. It's been
a long, hard day.
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Now +hat you're moving into this kind of public
posture, is Herb properly protected....?
DIRECTOFZ TURNER: Wei I, I brought Herb out here
a+ the risk of his 11 `e. And he's survived a little more
than a year now. And more +han that, I'm sure +ha+ +hose
of you who know him know what a tremendous person he is,
what a very capable person he is. And I believe from
all I can see, he's won the hearts and minds of all +he
people out here too.
Thank you for being with us.
[Applause.)
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ADVERTISING COUNCIL
CIA Auditorium
1745, Tuesday, 13 June 78
Pleased to be here
- grateful interested in intel activities
- One trend - symbiotic relationship with business
o traditional helpful relationship - one direction - new twist
o moving more to study economic activities
o significant change - hope benefits business community
Look back 30 years - first organized
s
Prime product - Soviet mil
Today - 150+
economic + political
Soviet military s illirst, but expandin our expertise/interests
>C,0~ AA~ 4:L.* 0-1 t~_U~ AXAO~l
anti-terrorism
o anti-drug traffic
o energy problems, etc.
New/demanding challenge
Relate to you in business because changed product encourages
2nd trend: greater openness
Traditionally - max secrecy
- Not appropriate today
- Public's right to return on tax $
o speaking
o conferences
o publishing - here business can benefit directly
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Studies
e.g.: energy
Soviet economic prospects
terrorism
Can't be completely open - must keep some secrets or value lost
o govt and industry - serious problem safeguarding info
- industrial espionage - prime Soviet target -
ascendency
o where your concern must be to understand threat,
convey to employees, take countermeasures
o govt's concern includes same measures, plus
reducing corpus of secrets
- fewer
- easier to protect
- respected more
-
Too many - not respected - serious problem
o
o
books
interviews
-
logical extension - 215 million - chaos
o time for more trust
o not accept on faith alone
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Oversight - surrogate process
- Pres - VP
- JOB
- Congress
- Adequate mechanism for whistle-blowers - respect
- Risks - oversight
o timidity
o leaks
o over management
Last January - reorganization - recognized these trends
o budget/tasking
o analysis
o NSC(I)
Trends strengthening capability
- In ways will support & defend our democratic institutions
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T q~~~ t
DCI's REh1ARK/~p~0o1TrI~(as~~~~Ih11/2Z:A~I~8~155 (428IIiT17~~0~~~6
We are very pleased to have you here with us this evening. We are very
pleased that you are this interested in the state of American intelligence.
There is one conviction we all have here is that it takes the support of the
populus of this country for any governmental institution like this to flourish
and we are pleased because of your important role in informing the country in
many ways that you are interested in hearing about what we are doing.
I'd like to talk about a few of the trends in American intelligence.
In part, because one of those trends I think is a direct and increasing interface
with the American business community in which you of course have so much contact.
It has been a symbiotic, a friendly, a traditional relationship between our
American intelligence agencies and the American business community for many years.
It has been a very useful and most proper well of information from the business
community to us and we never want to go out and use expensive, risky, clandestine
means of collecting information when it is available within the American body.
So, we are grateful to business when they share some of their overseas experience
with us when it is applicable, within let us say a quite proper way.
But there have changes in trends in ways we are doing intelligence and
in what we are doing today, which are opening up possibilities for us to make
this a more reciprocal relationship one in which the product of our efforts can
be of use to the American business man, we hope. Let me explain why I believe this.
If you look back to when we first organized 31 years ago, a central intelligence
activity in our country, the primary product that we were concerned with was
information about Soviet military activity. You look today, what the product of
your intelligence community should be, I think it is apparent to all of you
that while the Soviet military element is a very important one, it is not as
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as dominant today as it as 30 years ago, when we were 3 years ago the leadin:
economic power in the world, and we certainly were the dominant political power
as well as possessing vast military superiority. Over these intervening years
we have been required to develop interlocking relationships, contacts on the
economic and political spheres with many, many more countries than the Soviet Union.
Most of those contacts are much more active, much more important to us today
than they were when we held a dominant position on the world scene. As a result
we in the intelligence business are doing a great deal more in both political and
economic intelligence today than we did in the past. We are very concerned of
the economic growth rate in countries like Japan and the Federal Republic of Germany
because those growth rates have an impact on me and me and our dollar, and our
pocketbooks and our taxes. We are interested in how much grain the Soviets are
going to produce next year. Like, last year 194 million tons, or the year before
223 million, the difference effects us as you remember from the great grain robbery
of 1973 when they entered the market unexpectedly because they had a shortfall.
We are interested in the world energy situation because we happen to believe
constrictions in energy in 4 or 5 years are likely to force a slow-down of
economic growth around the world, let alone force an increase in the price of
energy that will be reflected in your life and mine on a daily basis. So, today
we have to look at these other aspects of our rleationship with the rest of the
world and in recent years we have to deal with such esoteric fields as
anti-terrorism. How could we help combat international terrorism, how can we
find out what their plans and intentions are important to international terrorist
activities or help protect people who are going to be subjected to them. How could
we combat international drug traffic and try to help suppress it from the source
and certainly from importation into our country. Not our getting into the law
enforcement end of it, getting into the intelligence end and helping the country
defend itself by knowing what is going on in those areas. These are new and
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demanding challenges to us. I don't want to in any way suggest that being well-aware
of Soviet military activity is not number one on our list, it has got to be, it is
the number one threat to our country and we have got to continue giving it top priority.
But, what I am suggesting to you is that we are having to expand, having to develop
analysis
new areas of expertise, new talents, new methods, new/knewledge, new methods of
collecting intelligence in order to satisfy these other critical needs for our
country. Because we are in greater economic analysis, I think we have greater
opportunity to be of benefit to the American business community. And that relates
to one of the other trends I would like to discuss with you. And that is a trend
toward greater openness in American intlligence today. Though I am sure you are
aware and respect our intelligence as most in the world, but we have always operated
on the basis of maximum secrecy and minimum disclosure. I happen to think that is
an inappropriate policy for intelligence in the United States today. I happen to
think that after the years of disclosure that we have had of criticism, and bad
press over the last 3 or 4 years, the Ameircan public deserves to know more about
what we are doing and why and as I said at the beginning, only if we have that
understanding can we expect to survive as an institution of our country. The country
accepted us on faith for about 25 years, since the inquiries, since the criticisms
that is not the case, therefore, we must come forward and justify our existence and
give you a return on your tax dollars. How are we doing that? We are responding
more forthrightly when asked inquiries by the media within the limits of necessary
secrecy, I'll talk about them a bit, we are attending conferences; we are asking
you to join us here, we are speaking more and we are also publishing more. Let me
explain how we do that. We are publishing more that I think will be of value
to you as citizens and particularly the American businessman. When we do a study,
having got intelligence data gathered, sifted out and sorted it and tried to put
the pieces together and try to come to some useful conclusion for our national policy
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makers. We look at it and we say, we took two things out of this could we publish this
and make it public? The first thing is how we got the information, if we expose that
we may never get it again. Secondly, information which gives our President, our Congress
unique advantage in making decisions because they know this and other people don't know
that they know. If we take those two things out and then say to ourselves is there
still enough information here meaningful and useful that it will add to the quality
of American debate on this topic if we publish it. Twenty minutes ago I was in a meeting
on a new forecast of the Soviet economy in the next decade and which way it is going
to go. We published one just last year and in that one we said we see several factors
that are going to constrict economic growth in the Soviet Union. That is going to
impact on American business because they are not going to have a foreign exchange
to enter the market of our products. We just revisited that and as I say a few
minutes ago, put a general approval on the study that we have redone and says how
long before we can take it from its present classified form into an unclassified one.
It may take a couple of weeks and we will then publish it and hope that it will
be helpful to us. You may remember that some controversy a year ago April we
published a world energy prospect. This is study that had been under way a year and
a half around here, we think it is a very important one. It is a controversial one
not everyone agrees with us, what we have really said is not what has been reported
sometime. What we said was we think in the next 7 or 8 years the world, the world
will not be able to get as much energy out of the ground as oil as we would
like to consume. Not that the oil isn't down there. Between now and 1985 we are
not going to be able to take it out, or find alternatives at a rapid enough pace,
like nuclear or solar or other energy to satisfy our overall needs
and therefore energy will very likely to be a constraint, among economic activities
sometime between now and 1985 or thereabouts. We published that, it was controversial
we hope that it helped focus debate on an important issue and the controversy in turn
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to the criticism and say, where should we focus our next intelligence collection
effort over the next four or five years to see whether it is going the way we thoug~.t,
or the way somebody else thought, so it is useful in both directions. We revisited that
study, we will republish it shortly and generally our conclusion has not changed
substantially in the past year. We published studies on international terrorism,
the impact they will have on American business and unfortunately we are predicting
that we see no pressures, no trends to lead us to believe there is going to be a
substantial decline in this unfortunate Now let me not overstate the case,
there is no way we can be completely open.- We are an intelligence organization and
much of what we do cannot be done if it is not done in secret. Much of what we learn
an analyze is of no value to our decision makers if it is simply broadcast on the street.
And there are lots of in our country today with respect to keeping as much
secret as we absolutely need to have secret in order to conduct a useful and a
fruitful intelligence activity. One threat is pure and simply espionage. We have
had a number of cases of important industrial espionage, I guess important wasn't
a very good choice of words, catastrophic industrial espionage in recent years.
Industrial espionage is the primary focus of the Soviet Union today. Sometimes
in the military intelligence sphere , but also in the plain industrial processes
and techniques which the Soviets try to gain and emulate. We believe there is
more attention needed in American industry in preventing this. We are working hard
with industry to move in that direction.
A second real problem, that of leaks, many of which I am afraid come out of
the government, not out of industry. These are a very serious problem also, we
are working on it in many different ways, but it is not an easy one, which I am
sure you appreciate. Some of the leaks that we have had in recent months have
been of very serious import to our credibility as an intelligence agency for our
country and our ability to continue collecting information either by working with
other human beiA'OorSvrgd r SlAgrelf0d'-491 2: bA1RD#REWid 06281bo271O0O1;-6i f we
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can't keep a secret our relationship with people like themselves. Or by our technical
means of collecting information almost any one of which has a countermeasure if people
think about it and work on it enough. When you start exposing how you go about doing
these things the countermeasures start appearing very rapdily. Now some people
feel it may be a contradiction between greater openness and an emphasis on greater
withholding of our necessary secrets. I don't happen to think there is. I happen
to think that one of the greatest threats to secrecy in our country to day is a lack
of respect for the secret label on the document. There are too many secrets.
Churchill once said, "when everything is secret, nothing is secret." and we have
come too close to that in fact. By attempting to declassify and publish and make
available to the public as much as we can within the limits I have described to you,
we hope to reduce the amount of classified information and garner greater respect
for that which remains, and hope thereby to tighten the noose around the true seekers.
After all, some of these rogues who have gone off and written books, or given interviews
or appeared on tv covered information that they should not have have maybe done so
in large measure as a lack of respect a lack of understanding and appreciation of the
importance of the information they are giving away. We come to a time in our country
when we have given too much credence, too much respect, perhaps to those people
who have so called blown-whistles or whatnot. One does not want to denigrate the
importance of contributions of Woodward and Bernstein to our society, but if we
don't find a proper balance sometime soon. So that every individual doesn't decide
it is his problem to decide what should be classified and what should be unclassified
for our country. All 215 million of us, that is pure chaos. I think it is about time
tryst and
we restored a modicum of/confidence in the elected and appointed officials who make
these decisions on what can be released and what must be withheld from the public.
I'm not asking or suggesting that the public simply take us onfaith, I'm suggesting
to you that still another trend in American intelligence today is a greater oversight
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. Now there is a contradiction in having public oversight and having
any degree of secrecy. So what we are evolving in this country and it is an exciting
period and------ what I call surrogate public oversight. And the surrogates for
the public are numerous. First, there is the President and the Vice President who take
a very keen interest in intelligence, not only in the product but in the progress
on how we are going about it. I meet with the President once-a-week and explain
to him what we are doing, answer his questions and assure that he is well and thoroughly
informed on what we are doing that would be of a concern and interest to him.
Another surrogate, one he has appointed, is the Intelligence Oversight Board.
Three gentlemen, former Governor Scranton, former Senator Gore and Tom Farmer of
this city, who report only to the President. They work only on questions of legality
and propriety of intelligence activities. Herb or any of these other people around
here think I'm doing something wrong, they write to or communicate to Intelligence
Oversight Board, they don't have to go through me. That Board investigates it
they think
reports only to the President what they think happened and what/should be done.
Perhaps the most important oversight process that was established in recent months
has been the two committees of Congress, one in the Senate, one in the House of
Representatives, each to oversee the intelligence process and I think they are
doing a splendid job. They keep us on our toes, they keep us up there telling them
what is going on, reporting to them and we are finding the right balance but it is
going to take time to settle it out. Between that degree of oversight which
will give them a check, a control, which will give me a sense of relationship
to the American public, and what it understands and what it wants and expects from
us. And at the same time, will not provide such a large forum for discussing all
the very sensitive issues that we end up with too many leaks. We are going through
this process today in establishing a relationship with our oversight bodies.
I can't tell you that it is working perfectly or that it is going to work as
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perfectly as weA avid IF4or1=.lealser2OOdfr1ft(22ntcIiI R P OI5S PO2 O2T OQg-6joi ng
to take a year or two or perhaps a little longer to really iron it out and to see
to it that we don't end up with intelligence by timidity because we are worrried
about leaks and we are worried about too much oversight but that we do end up
with that proper balance of control that proper balance oversight that we
reflect The President Herb mentioned in his remarks, in early
February, signed a new Order reorganizing the intelligence community and somewhat
strengthening my authorities as the Director of Central Intelligence, that is
the role in which I am empowered to coordinate all of the intellignece activities
not just those of the Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency. And his objective
here was to move in the direction of these trends I have been describing.
For instance, he gave me new authority to manage the budgets of all the intelligence
activities, whether they are resident in the Department of Defense or the Central
Intelligence Agency or elsewhere. That has been very helpful in bringing this
community together. He gave me authority to dovetail the analytic efforts
of the intelligence community. That is a very important and fine distinction here
because we do two things in intelligence we collect information and we analyze it.
Now in analyzing it, one should be very careful to let divergent views come forward
because when you are pulling all these diverse miniscule pieces together into a puzzle
it is not always exactly clear what the picture is going to say. Diferent people
interpret it differently. So, in strengthening my Central Intelligence Agency
authorities here, the President has been very careful that we maintain an independent
analytic capability in the Defense Department and in the State Department and here
at the Central Intelligence Agency. The3work with and compete with each other
so that we do have different views at all times. On the other hand, the Order also
strengthened my authority to control these collection elements, how we go out and
get the information. That is expensive, it is risky, we don't want more duplication
than we can possibly minimize here. We want to see that the effort is well coordinated.
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We don't w ant this hand looking to the right and this one looking to the left and
no one looking down the middle. We don't want somebody collecting on part of the
problem and no one else collecting on the other part. We want to be sure that
everything is brought together so that the gaps in what one intelligence collection
capability can leave you are filled by another one. So, I am now empowered to
control all of the collection elements as to what they do day, by day.
Finally, the President's new Order established a committee of the National
Security Council to give me overall direction as to what our priorities are. It is
not we in intelligence who should decide what is most important to know today and
tomorrow it is for the people who are going to use it, consumers and that is what
this new committee will do.
Well, in these trends I have tried to describe to you with greater emphasis
on economic and political intelligence, greater openness on the one hand and very
high concern for what must be kept secret on the other and a more thorough oversight
process, I think that trends in intelligence today are greater effectiveness for
our country. I believe we have the best intelligence service in the world and there
is no reason to think we cannot keep it that way. I assure you that everyone of
us is dedicated to doing just that.
Thank you.
9
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Q&A's - Advertising Council - 13 June 1978
DCI:
Criticism period from 1974 til now. Recently you may note the press New York
Times. Got a little publicity out of that now we have 2 1/2 times many applicants
in the last couple of months than in any spring period in the past. We recruit on
150 campuses. We think we are getting very good talent and I am impressed by the
kind of young men and women I see joining our intelligence organizations. There is
no question that 3 1/2 years of intense criticism of being exposed to the public
for almost the first time, and then being exposed in critical way has had a definite
impact on morale in our intelligence community. I think we are pulling out of it.
I can only say the people here are so fine, that despite this discouragement to come
from being criticized, from seeing distortions in the press to which we cannot
respond frequently. That I have great faith that they have continued to do their
work just as well, and there morale will be turned in time. Let me give you an
example. I talked with one of our more senior people the other day. A couple of
years ago he had a son at a liberal eastern college and his just couldn't admit
that his father worked at the CIA. Now after you have been here 20 or 30 years
that gets to you. It is tough on people when the public attitude is such that if
you join as an honorable professional, and you have dedicated your life to, and I
assure you that people in this profession, and I'm a newcomer to it, so I'm not
boasting to you at all, they make as many sacrifices personally in the name of
trying to serve their country as do any people in our government.
Q. Inaudible.
A. What are the qualifications for recruits? One of the big qualifications is experience
at the top. We like to get people who have been out and done most anything for a couple
of years. Why? Because those who join our clandestine side, who go overseas and are
operators over there have big responsibilities on their shoulders
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and we like somebody who has just a little extra touch of maturity.
On our analytic side, the people who are open and above board and work here analyzing
of information almost any skill. We have people coming in and sayir.g
what should I study if I want to join your organization, I say study what you are
good at because we've got it here at some degree.
Q. Terrorism
A. Do we hope world terrorism will be brought under control? One small hope for a
grave hope that I see is that the intelligence agencies of the world are operating
almost in this one area. We and all our western european allies are very close in
our exchange of information on this. That is a big hope. I think it is basically
going to take a stiffening of attitudes in all of our society.
(Inaudible)
Q. Inaudible
A. The are very courious in that regard. We don't close them off until
people overseas ---- can't hear clearly. To have that kind of capability
in four or five years. I am worried aboutthe long term. It is a very serious one.
The oversight process I beleive will work out to w. I think we are working out a
process with the Congress whereby that oversight can be kept inbounds. I was up there
all last week talking about Cubans in Zaire on a very highly classified basis
there was one leak the first day and I stood up andcomplained the next 3 days and
there hasn't been a leak since. I have found the Congress, cooperative, understanding
we have problems from time to time, but I think things will work themselves out.
Q. Inaudible
A. Is the country aware of industrial espionage problems and can I give an example?
I'm not sure the country is well aware of it. December 1976, 2 young men named
Boyce and Lee worked at a contractor plant and all kinds of contractors had programs
with us. They were arrested, taking documents out of the plant, taking them down to
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Mexico City and transferrring them to the Soviet Union there. They were caught in
Mexico City and they were returned to the United States and they both since been
convicted. Here in Washington, D. C., the date slips me, it was before I got here,
I think it was the fall of 1976, former employee of the Agency threw a package over
the fence around the Soviet embassy on 16th Street. What I read of it, the Soviets
thought it might be a bomb, called for the fire department. GaVethe package back
and put the man in jail. Detente in my opinion is an Fplus for our country.
From an espionage point of view it is an Fminus. We are more open to their coming
in here because inspite of detente, American's walking down the street in Moscow
is much more obvious foriegner than Soviets walking down the street in our country.
Q. Inaudible
A. Response to the first one, we may not have taken into account all of the efforts
of the Soviet Union to use alternative sources of energy. Keep in mind, our study
talks about between now and 1985. What we tried to do was project what developments
either in conservation or might take place before that time and we feel
that the decline in production in the Soviet oil field is going to be greater than
these other alternatives could be in that period. Now, over the longer haul, number one,
they have got lots of oil in the groudn, number two, you can convert many more
to coal in that period. Your question on the United States was similar. As far as
the United States was concerned, what we were predicting was based on the conservation
laws that were in effect, not taking into account any improvement when the Pre sident's
energy bill Which could improve somewhat. Was trying to take into account
nuclear power plant and other conversions to coal. Of course, the rate of
consturction in nuclear power plants in our country and the world is down very
preciptiously from what had been predicted just 3, 4, 5 years ago.
very simply was that in this 7 year time frame there was not as much potential
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brought on in a practical way.
Q. What form of redress released in your opinion is it adequate?
A. That is a politically explosive question. We have a very antiquated espionage law
by whith the two cases I mentioned were prosecuted. You have to be caught
Washington Post. foreign power. So, there is not a good
law that applies specifically to that kind of belief, real espionage. When you join
the Central Intelligence Agency, you must sign a secrecy agreement when says you will
let us check your manuscript for classified information Next week I
go an testify in the first case we have taken to court. A former employee named Snepp
who published a book without providing us an opportunity to review it and after
expressly promising me he wouldn't. So, we asked the Attorney General and he brought it
into court and the results of that case will in some sense determine how that segment
of the government the case is upheld and that will
strengthen the use of our secrecy agreement it will mean forcing different issues.
Beyond that, it is very difficult to say what
our problems here with the first amendement. To be able to get information.
I personally am concentrating on a way within our government to close the gap.
Every so often when you walk out of this building your brief case is inspected.
people take classified information home to work on it, but that just is
not acceptable, I'm concerned about security. Inaudible.
Q. To what extent are you seeking cooperation from all sorts of business
A. We are very much seeking your help and advice. We have a section of the Central
Intelligence Agency called Domestic Collection Division which is totally open, listed
in the phone book in 35 cities in our country. We maintain regular relationships with
many American corproations. We protect them as sources, as much as we try to protect
undercover sources overseas. At the same time we are perfectly aboveboard
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and there is not any clandestine type of relationship. We find it very valuable to us
We have on several occasions been able
by simply going to American industrialist and saying what is happening here. Find that
company A was selling 25 to somebody in the Soviet Union, Company B was selling 25 more,
company C was selling 75 and when you added it all up you found it was interesting and
alarming. W_ We are very grateful for the cooperation we have from
American business.
FUTURE
Q. Two or three things that are on your mind as you look at the/next 5 years.
A. Wow. I think that the overall energy and economic issues of the world and how
we How we make sure contest. How we handle the Japanese situation.
We have the economic wherewithall, we have the technical knowledge
In the short term many of them with unsettled conditions
Q. Inaudible
A. Next tape. Side 3
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ADVERTISING COUNCIL (Auditorium)
13 June 1978
1745
Questions and Answers
got
A. a marvelous organization but it's/ a couple of characteristics which
I thought were ripe for change. It's a organization, 31 years
old this September. And I think the personnel management system is just
beginning to settle down because we got a lot of marvelous people at the
beginning. And they've been going through the system but after thirty years
very
they're beginning to leave and we haven't - because it's a/operational
kind of group and you know getting the job done was the first thing, set up
all the management, first of all management tools be here, assure
people career So a great deal of my effort
personnel , trying to build for 1988, because if we
don't worry about that today, we won't be blessed by the quality of people
we have now . I have, I but found it necessary
to what I felt was a, too much of a familiar attitude here. This is a
relatively small organization and it's a very tactic one and very family
oriented one, but , you can't manage when you have these changes over
collect
the last 15 years, the way you/intelligence, many more technical, sophisticated
systems, you can't manage the old plant the same way. And sometimes that's tough p~-
the people who are no longer needed. You have to reduce
Q. How can anyone at the CIA here counterpart ?
A. Yes. The direct counterpart is called the KGB. They are quite a bit larger
than we are. They put a tremendous amount of manpower into it. We will never
attempt or want to match them in what we call human intelligence collection, spies
that they send out in great numbers We suffer under the
from an intelligence point of view. On the technical intelligence point of view,
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because of our technical capabilities as a country, we are well ahead
On the third aspect, first two being the ways of collecting intelligence, the
third one referred to as analyzing and estimating it. I have a
conviction that free society we can get much better free
analysis than you can in a society. I think we'll always be
ahead of them in interpreting the information than
collection. You can afford this building to come to a conclusion
that President Carter doesn't like. I don't know if you can do that in the
KGB.
Q. I think that the activity in the United States
KGB ?
A. Yes. Yes. Possible. That's of course one of those, one of the ways they
go about it, trying to - we have uncovered that
you are an American -country
Q?
that's correct.
A. Unlikely to be arrested per se/ Or if he is, he's somebody who has come
here with enough savoir faire to . There are some of
those around, they get into the country somehow, get themselves established
Q. ?
A. Absolutely not. right now. We
about more people or very small sums of money comparatively
our budget is under very close scrutiny by the oversight
committees and the people
thoroughly tough as any department just is not published but
. To some extent Congress looked
at it but they don't all look at every detail of the agriculture budget either.
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A: (cont'd) Or the Justice Department, but the information is available to
every member by going to the oversight committees.
Q: Does it appear that the Embassy has been bugged (inaudible)
A: Well this is very prevalent in Moscow. We have a great
25 years ago in our Embassy there. (inaudible)
I'm sure this happens elsewhere but I think
We have not yet been able to technically determine (inaudible)
Q: (Inaudible)
A: Yes. We've got a balance here and held down by the
Congress as to how much contracting out we do. And we can see their point
increase your staff, its a
on the one hand, its just another way to/ misuse to hire people, to hire
them for a specific task, for a limited and time
In addition, we have a group of about 30-35
intelligence people in the wings and when we do a major study, we look at the
list of them and say which are most appropriate to this, which complement our
own intelligence and we ask 2, 3, 4 of them to come in for a few
days at the beginning and a few days in the middle and at the
end and work with us and make sure that we haven't overlooked some major point
and they're very, very helpful. Some are academic, some are
Q: Sir, (inaudible)
A: Soviet Middle Eastern oil fields I think goes back
to the Czar Soviet Union and well I
yes
emphasize that/I think they have a thirst for the warm waters and now the oil
that goes back before oil was
ZI
and if you
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3
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take seriously our Agency forecast -For the Soviet Union, it means they have to
be more and more interested in their Afghanistan is not a
oil nation but its moving down in that
Q: I have one question Admiral Turner (inaudible)
A: Well, I brought Herb out here __ and he's survived for a year
now and more than that (inaudible) those who know him know what
a tremendous person very capable person he is and I
the
believe, all I can see he's won/ hearts and minds of all the people out here
too Thank you for being with us.
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4
0
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