CONVERSATION BETWEEN GENERAL CARTER AND CARL KAYSEN ON 1 SEPTEMBER 1962

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R001700180014-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 7
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 6, 2004
• Sequence Number: 14
• Publication Date: September 1, 1962
• Content Type: TRANS

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Saturday, 1 September Acting
1. Resume of my telephone conversation with Secretary Gilpatric
is attached.
2. Also attached are transcripts of my two telephone conversations
with Carl Kaysen
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Conversation Between General Carter and Carl Kaysen on 1 September 1962
Mr. Kaysen: Pat, this is Carl Kaysen. You were calling me, but now I'm
calling you, but it's your nickel.
General Carter: Well, I was calling you about a call I just had from Ros
Gilpatric who is as much handicapped in their intelligence activities of
analysis as we are over here, trying to get some of the information
shaken loose so that at least we will be prepared to talk to the President
on Tuesday.
Mr. Kaysen: Right, and he suggested to me, and I agree, that we go ahead
and do the amount of processing we have to do, to do it on the minimal
personnel basis possible, including making people work as long as they
can and so on.
General Carter: Yes, well, of course within the Interpretation Center we are
proceeding on the whole business and in fact have completed the readout,
but we are keeping it there because the President called me yesterday at
one o'clock and talked to rae on the phone and he was so strong and so
adamant that I jotted down, pr actically verbatim, a couple of sentences and
I think I'd better read theca to you --
Mr. Kaysen: I think you'd better read them to me and I think I should call him.
up - -
General Carter: Well, as I took the notes, this is -- these are the two key
sentences - - he said I would like to get this thing nailed right back into the
box -- after discussing the problem of premature leak or release without
the government knowing what they were going to do about it -- and I wrote
this right down - - I would like to get this thing nailed right back into the
box -- then he told me to call General Lemnitzer and tell him that he, the
President, didn't want any discussion of this with anybody or any paper on
it until next week when they're going to meet. Then he went on to say that
otherwise it's going to leak out and we have trouble. And then he said that's
why there shouldn't be any paper, shouldn't be any circulation in the intel-
ligence community -- and he said it should not be made available to anybody
such as the Secretary of Air Force, or SAC, or any of those things which
are. normally customary -- so, on that basis, while I am totally sympathetic
with our difficulties, since I got it directly out of the old man's mouth, I
think any of the three of us would be in deep trouble - -
Mr. Kaysen: Well, Ros didn't get this as directly as you did -- the only thing
to do is for me to call back and get some interpretation of this order. Now
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let me try to be sure we can make some minimum sense out of what we
want to do. The problem is how many people, in your judgment, without
writing a paper, have to be involved in order to prepare for Tuesday's
discussion? In your shop?
General Carter: Well, if we are going to merely inform the President of what
we know - -
Mr. Kaysen: Right, and what it means - -
General Carter: Well, of what we know -- rather than, when you say of what
it means, I think you are extending it a hell of a lot farther -- we could do
that keeping it entirely within NPIC where it presently is, and we can do
that to the President on Tuesday, and I don't have to know about it, and
Mr. Gilpatric, nobody else has to know about it except the technicians --
Mr. Kaysen: So this would be just the NPIC technicians and a briefer --
General Carter: That's right, and they already there, they've already got the
the information, they've made the read-outs, and we can give a floor show
on Tuesday of what we have found out as a result of the latest take -- however,
that's really a disservice to the policy people --
. Kaysei: I agree, yes --
General Carter: who are going to get caught flat on Tuesday -- as a matter of
fact, we have already shown to Uncle Bobby pictures and a quick run-out ---
Mr. Kaysen: Right.
General Carter: And he's aware of that --
Mr. Kaysen: You've seen them yourself?
General Carter: Yes sir, I've seen them myself -- initially, initially -- we've:
got many more by now.
Mr. Kayseri: Sure. Has anybody else in the shop seen them, your people, outside
of NPIC ?
General Carter: Well, the Attorney General --
Mr. Kaysen: Yes, you mentioned him --
General Carter: And at least a dozen of my own people, sure -- but this, who's
seen the picture and who hasn't doesn't have a bit of bearing on the problem
in any way, shape, form.
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Mr. Kaysen: I couldn't agree more, but - -
General Carter: What I would like to do would be to take the NPIC take, the
initial analysis of what is there, and turn it over to the Department of
Defense planners and our own planners who have to interpret, who have
to write intelligence estimates, and as a matter of fact, in order to be
properly organized for the Tuesday meeting,that Bundy is calling in
preparation for the Thursday meeting, the guys have got to say, "OK so
that's it, now what are you going to do about it 43tx and how? "
Mr. Kaysen: Right, --
General Carter: So I personally -- the leaks do not come from the people who
are doing the work, you know that as well as I do.
Mr. Kaysen: No, I know that, but you know we've got to deal with the people
we've got to deal with. Let me ask you this, can we say, ohm couldn't you
give me a number and say on a restricted basis so many people have to
deal with it?
General Carter: Oh, I'll say thirty or forty, or something like that -- that
would give me -- you see you've already got 900 people in NPIC, they don't
all know about this -- oh,, I think on that basis you could say probably a
dozen.
Mr. Kaysen: A dozen?
General Carter: I would say that
Mr. Kaysen: That's your people ?
General Carter: No, I could keep it in my shop to half a dozen, --
Mr. Kaysen: Ros could keep it to half a dozen --
General Carter: Well, he wouldn't want to -- it would be a terrible inhibition on
him -- you see the point is here --
Mr. Kaysen: Let me ask him for his figures --
General Carter: OK, but the problem here is that the fact that the stuff is there
has already been publicized,ix broadcast out of France, did I call your
attention to that?
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Mr. Kaysen: Yes you did, and I sent that up to the President --
fto Carter: The word is around, all of Miami knows it, so what we're dealing
with is a technical proof of what is generally known throughout the community.
And we don't intend to make any releases on it --
Mr. Kaysen: Yes, I understand that --
General Carter: So if any response is required as to what our reaction might be,
it could just as well be required from an AP query --
Mr. Kaysen: Yes, I agree. Well look, the problem is here, let me try to do
something with it.
General Carter: OK. In the meantime, we're going ahead with it, you understand,
in NPIC - -
Mr. Kaysen: Right. Let me take a minute to ask you a question, may I? This is
STAT on the other subject --band all that. Salinger's proposed response to
the questions arising out of this whole leak which we still don't know about --
General Carter: I thought that was yours --
Mr. Kaysen: Well, only the NASA spokesman was ours, but the original leak
wasn't ours -- we don't krLow where the original leak came from.
Mr. Kaysen: The NASA spokesman was ours -- we are proposing to get somebody
from NASA who will be responding to statement, you saw the
statement quoted in The Post this morning? And he will say, you know, not
only is it not true that you never had a failure, you had whatever the number is
failures, you had one this year and two that year, whatever it is -- do you see
any problem there ?
General Carter: No, I don't see any problem on that.
Mr. Kaysen: Right, now we may then go to the question of whether we ought to
get NORAD data fixed up and out through some scientific channel, and I know
Ray Cline is working on this.
General Carter: No, as long as you don't give any disclosures as to how we know,
just leave it up in the air - -
Mr. Kaysen: No, and of course we're not going to say anything at all about more
recent events --
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General Carter: Well, I should hope not because --
Mr. Kaysen: I've made this very point with Salinger --
General Carter: Yes, but getting this stuff out now is real bad timing because
we could look awful sick in another couple of hours --
Mr. Kaysen: Well, I have asked him also to hold off and suggested that we may
have more information --
General Carter: OK, Carl --
Mr. Kaysen: OK, I'll go back to the President and see if we can get a --
General Carter: Just tell him, on a very, very limited distribution in order that
the planners can be prepared to brief him properly on Tuesday, and we'll
keep it all in Washington - - something like that. OK?
Mr. Kaysen: OK.
General Carter: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Kaysen: Thank you.
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Second Conversation Between General Carter and Carl Kaysen on 1 September 1962
Mr. Kaysen: Pat, I talked to the President and he said he sympathizes with
your position and he perhaps stated his position a little too
restrictively. What he wants to be sure is that you are personally
in control of anybody who has this information and that he has it
only for the purposes we discussed.
General Carter: OK. That's the same responsibility as DCI that I would have
anyway except it makes it a little more personal.
Mr. Kaysen: Yes, I think the only point here, Pat, as I can speak perhaps from
a little more personal observation than you have an opportunity to have,
I think the President here didn't think, "I'm literally giving him an
order, " he thought more, "I'm expressing a certain general attitude.
and direction and I want. Carter to know how strongly I feel about it. "
General Carter: Yes, I see, well, I've been in the Army too long and when the
old man says, "Scat, " boy, I find a hole to scat to just as quick as
hell, so I took him too literally, probably --
Mr. Kaysen: Well, I think it was very useful for you to raise the question and
he was perfectly happy to have the point made.
General Carter: OK, fine, we'll keep it very, very close to our chests. Thank
you very much. Bye, Carl.
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