DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200060001-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 99
• Document Creation Date: December 14, 2016
• Document Release Date: December 4, 2002
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: January 1, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

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DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS
Tape: # 13
Date: 17 February 1962
Time: 118 Hours PM
II
Gary, you remember when we talked yesterday you
had completed your discussion of the trial situation
and you were then, if I recall correctly, returned
to the same place where you had been held previous
to the trial.
Powers: Yes, that's right, before returning after the trial
I spent one hour with my relatives who were
visiting there in the same building where the trial
was held. From there, directly back to prison,
same cell, same place.
Now, how long were you kept at this same prison
which was in Moscow before you were transferred
to Vladimir?
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And this other American you mentioned his name
yesterday.
Halle the Attorney?
Powers: Hall dl`.3rr -
Hall &k 4.
Powers: Something like that, spent a few minutes, I don't know,
maybe fifteen minutes. Did a lot of talking said very
little. From there, I was taken back to the same prison,
same cell. That was Monday. On Wednesday, I
think approximately one o'clock in the afternoon, one.-
thirty, I was up in the court yard taking a walk when
this interrogator, the chief interrogator whose name I
thought of this morning, Kuzmine. As near as I can
spell it would be K-u-z-m-i-n-e, I think. He and
Rhotachev came up to the court yard where I was
walking and asked me if I would like to see my wife againg
Didn't mention parents or anything just wife. And I
told them I certainly would and they said they thought
that could be arranged and that we would be allowed
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to spend three hours together alone. They said to get
ready and they took me down immediately, brought
the suit in that I wore at the trial and I put that on
and approximately two-thirty we left and went to
what I am sure is another prison in Moscow. We
got there just before three o'clock and about three
o'clock, Kuzmine and Rhotochev brought my wife
to this place. They left, left the guard outside and
left us alone together and came back at six o'clock.
That was on the 24th of August.
Gary, just again you were trying to recall and had
recalled several things you believed you had told
Barba(a...Would you repeat those again as best you can?
Powers: I can't be sure of this, I was talking to her about
it and she said that some of the things I thought I had
told her I hadn't. But, it seems to me, that she said
I hadn't told her the names of Rhotochev and Kuzmine.
But it seems to me I can remember distinctly telling
her this, of course, maybe she didn't understand
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because I was trying to whisper right in her ear
without making any sound whatsoever. Also to
make letters in her hand so that she could see
what they were. But, she said she doesn't
remember me telling her those names but it seems
that I did, I don't know. Seems like I told her
about -- definitely that the pilots were not named
named. As far as the Soviets knew they were not
involved. Now these might have been things that
I wanted to tell her and didn't. I really can't say.
But I know I did tell her a few things.
Did you also try to convey to her the fact that you
had been shot down?
You mentioned that?
Yes, I told her as near as I could figure out I had
been shot down.
But, owing to the peculiar circumstances of being
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in a prison and probably under observation and
suspected technical listening post and so forth,
You felt you couldn't go any further than that.
Powers: No, I couldn't talk, I had no desire to talk out
loud there because I felt there might be
microphones and no telling what else. I tried
to -- very low whisper directly into the ear that
couldn't be heard, I hope anywhere.
Now after you saw Barbara for the three hours,
you were taken back to the --
The same prison.
Now what happens?
Powers: After this, just a second, after this interview
Kusmine and Rhotochev came back and we talked
there a little while. Barbara asked if she could
buy me some clothing and make some sort of
arrangements to help me out after she had left.
They said yes, also it came up, they asked her#,
when she was leaving. She had previously told
me when we were alone together that it would be
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on Saturday - - on Friday but she told them on
Saturday. I don't know why. I didn't say anything
but on Friday, well - after that, they took her away
and as soon as she was out of sight they took me back
to the same prison, same cell. On Friday they came
in and told me - - I think it was Friday morning
sometime, my wife had left. And told me that we
could have seen each other again if she had stayed.
They wanted to know why she had left and I told them
I didn't know, I thought she was leaving on Saturday
as she had said. My parents had left on Wednesday,
I think the morning of the day we saw each other alone,
my wife and I. Lets see, that was the 26th when they came
and told me she had left. From that time on I didn't
leave the prison until the 9th of September when I was
taken to Ladenia.
Now during this period between the 26th and the 9th
did anything occur or were you just in routine?
Powers: I'm pretty sure that during this time they - this was
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I
Vaselieb and this woman interpreter the first time
I ever saw her, took me out to a room in this --
in the prison part of the building not the regular
interrogating rooms that they use, and read an
article from a ussian paper about the two
Americans from the -- N - National - NSA
Were you referring to Martin and Mitchell?
Yes.
Were those names mentioned to you?
Yes, those names were mentioned. Had their
photographs in the paper also.
Why do you recall did they probe into this ?
I think it was earlier than this they asked me if I
was familiar with this organization. But, I don't
remember the date this was asked I think it also
came up during this time also.
But you weren't able to give them any information on
this ?
Powers: No, I had never heard of the thing.
Did they ask you did you know Martin and Mitchell?
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Powers: I think they did ask me if I knew them and showed
me the photographs in the paper and I had never
seen them.
That was the extent of that conversation?
Yes, I don't remember exactly when this was but
it was between the period of the 26th of August
and the 9th of September. Now, I believe it was
on the 8th of September they came in showing me
an article from New York Times 1'ewspaper in
which the article stated that my gather had told
the correspondent, that I had told him that I had
not been shot down. So, it made me a little angry,
because I hadn't told him that because as near as
I could figure it out I had been shot down. I could
think of no slither explaination that would explain
what happened that day.
Had you talked to him about it at all?
Powers: No, I don't remember saying a word to him about it.
Except what he had heard in the trial itself, was the
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only thing he could have gotten directly from me. I
wanted to get the - to refute that story, I don't know
whether I suggested writing a letter or they did, it
seems to me they suggested my writing a letter to
the editor of the paper. But, it appealed to me
because I wanted to refute that. I did write a letter
and it was dated the 8th of September. They told
me the same day that I would be leaving the next
morning for Ladenia. This Major Vaselieb and
woman interpreter accompanied me there with
guards. There were two cars of us. The trip lasted
approximately three hours.
On the 9th you were taken?
Powers: On the 9th - yes.
Did they let you take everything you had in your cell,
clothing, books and so forth?
Powers: Well, I had very little in the cell but, the stuff my
wife had bought they had in another room there and
they put that all in bags and took it with me.
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This trip was made under decent conditions? You
weren't smuggled out or hand cuffed to anything like
that?
Powers: No hand cuffs, only four guards in this limousine
type car with me. The Major was one person.
I don't know whether you would consider him a guard
or not, and three other regular guards. One on each
side and two on the little folding seats in front of the
back seat. The woman interpreter was riding in the
front seat with the driver of the car. And then there
was a smaller car of the Volvo type bringing up the
rear with the supplies my wife had brought me. I
don't remember how many people were in that, but
I know there were at least two.
On that trip down there, were the shades drawn in
the car which you were travelling?
Powers: No, I don't think so.
You had full vision and so-forth?
Powers: Yes, I could see around out through the country side.
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Was there anything you think you might want to
comment on that you saw on the way down.
Powers: Well, I can't remember seeing anything that
impressed me at the time of being of any import-
ance. We passed some, what might have been
some small factorys in the outskirts of Moscow there,
but very little on the road. Most of it was through
farming and forest country. They were doing some
construction on the road, bridges especially, it
seemed like. A few detours around these places.
When we arrived in Vlaimir none of these people
seemed to know exactly where the prison was because
they went past it. They stopped and asked and inquired
someone on the street once. Came back and finally
turned into it. So I don't know whether they had been
there or not. It seemed like one of the guards in the
back had been there before because he seemed to be
telling them some sort of instruction.
Now what happened when you arrived in Vlatimir.
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Powers: We arrived at the prison, they drove up to a
gate that opens up into the prison but the guard
would not let us drive in. They pulled back around to
a door in a building and we went into what was the
administration building. We got out of the car they
brought the baggage in. They had let me make a list
in this - at Moscow before going to Vladimir of the
goods that my wife had bought there was overcoat,
a couple pair of pants, several shirts and a lot of
food: nuts, candy, a bunch of stuff, toothpaste,
stuff like that. Also an electric razor. But there
never was able to use the electric razor because of
the current. Even though I had aitransformer it just
wouldn't turn fast enough. I don't know how long I
spent in this administration building but I feel sure it
was less than thirty minutes. There was no search there
or anything else at this particular time. The money
my wife left with me I never did have my hands on they
gave it to the administration. The watch she had bought
me was given, my wedding ring which they said would
be returned to me was given to the administration of the
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prison to be kept for me there. They took this
list that I had made of the stuff that I had and I
never saw it again. In fact, I asked them for it
and never did get it, I had forgotten what I. had
in my supplies.
Did they move you then directly into your cell?
They brought another Major, a short fellow,
Demetria something like that, he was the officer
in charge of the building I was taken to. Short,
very jolly fellow, always smiling and laughing
seemed like. And seemed very friendly. He --
We will get a description of him later.
Powers: I don't know how good a description I can give of
these people, I don't seem to be observant as I
should be, but maybe I can help in some way.
Memory will return.
Powers: He took me by myself, no guards with me or
anything, through prison yards with walls all
around so we couldn't get out, and accompanied me
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to this building that became -- it housed the cell that
I lived in all the time I was there. He took me into
his office, called the guard in, waited for a few
minutes. Called in what was to be my cell mate.
His name was Kruminsh, K-r-u-m-i-n-s-h.
Now this is the same individual whose pictures we
have - -
Powers: Yes, you have his photographs and his hand writing
on the back. When he came in he was wearing a
beret or well it looked like a type of beret. And, he
wouldn't take it off. They asked him to and he wouldn't
And he explained to me when he said hello and intro-
duced ourselves and shook hands he said he was to be
my cell mate, we shook hands and I told him, had to
ask him again to repeat his name because I couldn't
understand Russian names very well. And he said
" I'm not Russian", I mean he made a point to say he
wasn't Russian. But he was Latviazl. His head was --
he had no hair they had cut off like they do most of the
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prisoners but they never did cut mine off and after
that never did cut his off again. As soon as his
hair grew back out he stopped wearing his little beret,
but he wouldn't take his beret off in the house with his
head practically shaved.
How long were you and Kruminsh and this Major
Demetria or Demetriah or what ever it is, together
before you went to your cell?
Powers: Just a few minutes, fifteen or twenty minutes. The
guard, I think it was the sergeant of the guards there
in the building came in and had me strip off my clothes
down to my underwear and performed a search. And,
had nothing on me so they put shoes and clothing back
on and the major escorted us upstairs on the 2nd floor
to cell # 31.
And was this cell your home for the next time
Powers: All the time until, oh when was it I left there the 8th
of February, the morning of the, oh no not the 5th,
yes this is February isn't it. Same cell all the time.
16
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Do you mind just for the record, describing this
cell? Just briefly.
Powers: It was roughly, I would say eight feet wide and I
would say between fourteen and sixteen feet long.
The roof - the ceiling of the cell was arched.
So you had quite a bit of room above.
Powers: Yes, but it was arched on the side like this. Well --
That's all right. How about windows ?
There was one window, with -- one window opening
with double windows in this space.
Could you see out?
There was opaque glass in the bottom part of the
window. In order to see out you had to climb up
on a bed or stool or something there. There was
a small crack in one of the opaque glasses that you
could get your eye close to and see out of. We used
it quite often.
Certainly. How was the sleeping arrangement?
Powers: Lets see, when I first got - - we changed it around
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Powers: About the same size as an Army cot but it seemed to
after I got there shortly. I could show you better on
a diagram than I could explain it. But there was a
cot on each side of the cell.
This would be like an Army cot?
Powers: Well, wire bottom with springs attached to the rails
be a little better than the Army cots I had slept in
here. This was a hospital we were in and these were
hospital beds. It had wire --
Springs ?
Powers: Double sheets, two sheets.
of the bed to hold the wire in place. A fairly good
mattress it was maybe two inches thick, something
like that, much thicker than the ones in Moscow
much more comfortable.
Sheets?
Powers: At that time there was only one blanket but later we
got one more.
Blankets?
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Were there cabinets in the room where you could
store your stuff?
Powers: There were two cabinets we wrote on, ate on, and
did everything on, that had two doors in the
bottom that you could open and store stuff inside.
Later on when we started making these envelopes
they brought another cabinet for us to work on
and keep some stuff in there. And then they never
did take that out after we quit work. So we had
three of them.
How about the lights ? Night lights that is.
Powers: There was one light in about the center of the ceiling.
One near the ceiling over the door. The one in the
center of the ceiling was used during the daytime
and at night until it was time to go to bed. When it
was time to go to bed the other light would be turned
on and this one off. The bulbs were about the same
about 75 watt bulbs.
So you had your top light in the center of the ceiling
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was turned off at night but the light over the door
was kept on so there was a light at all times,
twenty-four hours a day in that room.
Powers: And when something happened to the power
at night, which it did a few times, they would
bring a candle and have to keep it burning.
And did the door have the customary peep-hole
in it ?
Powers: It had the peep-hole and a square place about a
foot square or a little larger that they fed us
through.
Fed once?
Fed what, three times a day?
Powers: Yes, approximately between seven and eight in
the morning , usually between twelve and one
at noon, and six or shortly after at night.
You want to tell us a little bit about the food?
Just roughly.
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Powers: Well, it was poor. There seemed to be plenty of
it, more than I could have eaten I think. But, the
way it was prepared and the type of food it was it
just didn't appeal at all. It varied for breakfast,
we would have, they would bring fish soup quite
often and a very smelly fish soup that would almost
make me sick, the smell of it, I never ate a bite of
it, I couldn't. They would have different type of
porridges. The two best they had was something
like our creme of wheat. The other was oats, but
much courser than oatmeal. The one that I didn't
like at all was millet and barley also they had, I ate
that but didn't particularly like it.
Did you have any coffee at this time? Any hot drink
or anything?
Powers: When I first got there they wouldn't let me have the
coffee that my wife had bought me. Or the cigarettes.
After about a week or so they did let me have them.
How about lunch?
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Powers: At lunch there was always a bowl of soup. That was
about the same color as our whole wheat bread.
And, a piece of black bread as dark rye bread which
I never did learn to like. The -- well it was more than
I could eat. Usually one piece of the white bread was
enough to do me all day because I never did eat much
bread.
Anything else with the luncheon?
the best part of any meal I had there. The soup was
usually fairly good, not very much meat in it at all.
But, sometimes it was good. A lot of cabbage in the
soup, sometimes noodles in it or something like noodles.
Sometimes potatoes, but it varied a little bit from day
to day the make up of the soup itself.
Did you have bread?
They brought bread for the day at breakfast time, I
don't remember the weights of it but they supposedly
gave it by weights. There was something they called
white bread which looked to me like whole wheat bread,
Powers: There was always something else besides soup, there
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was also at first I think it was, 250 to 300 grams
of milk at lunch and then just two or three months
ago they cut it down to 200 grams which isn't very
much milk. And there was usually a plate of potatoes ,
just plain mashed potatoes, no seasoning, I mean
butter or anything like that.
Were these things hot?
Yes, they were usually hot, sometimes the soup
was very hot. They brought it in and it looked like
army or olive drab colored containers to keep food
warm that you could transport on trucks say from a
/kitchen to the troops. They would empty it out
of that into buckets and carry it around to the doors
and feed the prisoners. The predominate thing they
had lunch with the soup was either a plate of potatoes
or a plate of boiled cabbage. I didn't like their boiled
cabbage either, but I could eat their potatoes, I usually
dumped it in with the soup. Occasionally there was
noodles with a few pieces of meat in it, little strings of
meat. Once a week with the plate of potatoes, they
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had three or four ounces of beef usually. Once a week
at the most I know it wasn't more often than that and it
might have been longer period of time between. Now
for supper the worst meal of the day, I kept track
of it in a little diary I had, for a month and a half or
so and out of say 30 days, 25 days would be either
just a plate of plain mashed potatoes or a plate of
plain boiled cabbage. I think they had some tea
that you could drink with it, it wasn't hot, I only
tried it one time and it tasted very bad. Later,
I would supplement this with the coffee I received
from the American Embassy each month and coffee
that I had brought with me that my wife had bought
for me.
They brought you hot water I take it then.
Yes, at every meal they would bring a tea kettle of
hot water, and we would keep it hot longer by putting
a coat over the kettle to keep it from cooling off.
We used that to make coffee with or wash the dishes with
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so forth.
Did you share your rations that you got from the
outside with your cell mate?
Powers: Yes, he wouldn't drink much coffee, I don't know
why, maybe he didn't like it too much or something
but he would drink -- Well, I would drink for a while
there about six cups a day two at each meal and he
would only drink two or maybe three cups a day.
He shared with me and I shared with him, everything
we had was community property, I mean it was mine
or his but we just shared it.
Was the monotony of the meal ever broken by anything
like fruit?
:Powers: Never saw a piece of fruit the whole time I was there.
Was there any breaks for festive occasions, you know,
did you ever get a cookie?
:Powers: No, every day was the same.
This includes the weekends?
:Powers: Their holidays were not celebrated by the prisoners.
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In fact I think on their holidays the meals might have
been a little worse than -- because probably the cooks
or the supervisors wanted to get home earlier. But
it was strictly monotonous, same thing over, and over
and over. Nothing to spice it up at all. For supper again
at first it wasn't this often but I would say the past
two or three months at approximately once a week.
They would give us two hot cakes a week a piece
of course these hot cakes were usually cold by the
time they got to us and we would usually just put
some sugar on them and eat them because we didn't
have any syrup or anything.
Did you get the sugar from the prison or from --
Powers: We could buy the sugar at the prison.
Buy, they had a small commisary there then?
Yes,
And with money that had been sent in to you by Barbara
or who ever it might be you are entitled to make purchases.
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Did you make them physically or did the guards
make them?
Powers: No, there were two women that would come around
for a long time every ten days and just in the past
two or three months it was, no, in January it started
every fifteen days. They would bring a list of stuff in
the afternoon of one day and a little order blank. We
would fill out on the order blank what we wanted, it
varied to what they had but most of the time we could
get sugar. The first two months I was there we could
even buy butter, that was October and November.
I think the first of November was the last we could
get butter and for a long time could get no margarine
but later on margarine everytime. Sometimes, they
would have white bread which was much better than
they served us there at the meals but we couldn't
keep it there ten days without it getting so hard so we
would get enough for a few days. Get sugar, buy soap,
which I didn't need because It was sent from the Embassy.
They had socks, I think handkerchiefs, toothpaste,
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tooth brushes, tooth powder, some sort of tobacco,
but some people were not allowed to smoke.
How about anything to drink like extra milk?
Powers: No, but my cell mate told me that earlier they
could do that. They could buy this -- not milk
but something like yogart I think, sort of a sour
milk, but, when I got there this was not available
and never was while I was there. In the past three
months we could buy cheese, from right now, fairly
good cheese but very expensive, it was two rubles
I think sixty-four kopecs per kiligram that's two
and two tenths pounds. So it is roughly a dollar
twenty or thirty cents a pound.
How much did you know you had in the bank so to speak?
Well, they left me a lot of money. They left me two
twenty-four, or twenty-six hundred rubles before the
currency reform. When I first got there they said I
would be allowed to spend two-hundred rubles per month.
I think the people on what they call the normal regime
were allowed to spend one-hundred at the time. After
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the currency reform they said fifteen rubles a
month. Never did spend this full amount. They
kept the money and the administration gave a receipt
and each time something was purchased for me they
would subtract it from the total and kept account
of it.
So you had an idea what your balance was?
Yes, always knew what it was. Because I kept
this receipt with me all the time except when they
took it to the store to get these and to subtract the
money from it and give it back to me.
Now tell me about the toilet facilities.
Powers: Lets see, on my side of the building there was --
There was none in your room?
Oh no.
No wash basin or anything?
Powers: Nothing but a can sitting in the corner.
You mean a slop jar.
Powers: It was just a tin can that would hold roughly four or
five gallons I suppose, we used it to dump dishwater
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in that we washed dishes with, and if we had to go
to the toilet except say after breakfast, after dinner
or after supper we were supposed to use it. But,
once or twice if you had an upset stomach, signal
the guard and he would let us go. But, never after
ten o'clock at night. No one could leave their cells
until it was time to wake up the next morning.
But to urinate we always had to use the can there in
the corner of the room.
Then where was the real toilet?
It was in the corner room on the same side of the
building I was on, on this floor. Only one on this
floor for , lets see eighteen, the first cell on this
floor was eighteen, there was eleven cells on the
other side of the building from me. There was
eighteen to thirty-seven were the number of cells
on the floor. What would have been number thirty-
eight was the toilet. It was right in the corner.
And this serviced the whole --
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Powers: Yes, it had no commodes, it was a, I don't know
what you call them.
Powers: No, it was a squat down type, a place to put the feet,
a little hole and you squat. It had a wash basin
with only cold water. There was a radiator in there
there was usually a piece of an old br=oom to clean
out these cans with and just outside the door of the
toilet was some sort of disinfectant that they put in
the can helped to clean it out with each time we went
to the toilet.
Any toilet paper?
Powers: Newspaper.
Newspaper. Could you purchase toilet paper?
No, I was thinking maybe having kleenex sent from
the Embassy but I thought that would take up too much
space. I was getting use to newspapers anyway.
Now, from a washing point of view, like a shower.
Powers: That was in another building. All the prisoners
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washed in another building, the same building.
As far as I.know, no one washed in the building
that they lived.
How often were you allowed to go wash?
Powers: Every ten days.
Take a shower, was it hot water?
Hot and cold water.
But we had no control over the temperature, they
controlled - -
In other words, it was a continous flow.
The whole prison --
We could turn it on and off but we could not regulate
the amount of hot and cold water.
A whole group lined up to go through?
Powers: No, there were two places for showers. One place
I was only at one time when there was some sort of
malfunction, I guess at the other. It was a large room
with several showers, but they only let my cell mate
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and myself go in together, no one else there.
But, the other place which was used evertime
except this one time had little dressing booths,
very small about four feet square with a bench
in it to get undressed, walk into individual
shower rooms with doors with peep holes in
the doors and never allowed to see any of the
her prisoners although you knew there were
others, in the other dressing booths. I would say
six or seven dressing booths. There was another
larger room that we used several times, just
the two of us, for dressing. It was usually used
for groups of people like they had some cells in
some of the other buildings where five or more
people lived together and they would use this together.
Where did you do your shaving? In your room?
Water was brought in for that purpose?
Powers: Well, the hot water we got for each meal.
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You had to use what was left over for shaving or
whatever you wanted to do3
Powers: And if we needed any other hot water at the time
we could get it. But, anytime between the meals
it was cold. We could not get hot water.
You were allowed drinking water?
Well, that water, that same water.
Hot water?
Powers: It wouldn't stay hot long, it would get cold. I very
seldom just drank plain water because I drink
two cups of coffee at each meal and that seemed to
do.
What about laundry facilities? Did you do it yourself
or what?
Powers: Well, socks, handkerchiefs stuff like that you did your
self.
Underwear?
The underwear, when you took a shower turned it in,
there was a woman there that took this, it was embarrassing
but, you had to walk in front of her alot to go to the shower
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and come back. She paid no attention so I got
to where I paid no attention either after awhile.
Elderly woman, she took care of the laundry,
the sheets, we had to take the sheets, change
underwear every time we went. I had this --
some sort of a rash in my crotch where I was
using a medicine that discolored the underwear
and they gave me an extra change of underwear
for that purpose. They kept doing this all the
time.
This was every ten days you picked up your sheets,
your underwear?
Powers: No, we took our sheets and usually the day before
she had already brought other sheets and towels,
no, no , just sheets around to the cell. And, any
personal item, we could get our shirts washed, pants
washed, just turn them in.
Did you have a pillow?
Yes.
Did you ever get a chance to air these things out?
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Powers: Well, we would take the blankets out and shake them
and the matress covers and probably three times
while I was there some other prisoners came and got
the mattresses, we would have to take them outside
the door, they would close the door, they would take
the mattresses outside and beat them. I guess dust
and air them. It didn't happen very many times
I would say three, at the most four times while I was
there.
What sort of exercise were you allowed?
We were allowed to walk two hours a day in a court
yard roughly eighteen by twenty feet square.
Walled in?
Powers: Walled in, the walls were , I'd say twelve or better,
about twelve feet high.
Could you and your room mate walk together?
Were you allowed to talk?
Yes, we could talk but not loudly, because there were
people on the other side. The people were talking
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but they would - the guards walking back and forth
behind these court yards. Also people would be
looking out of the window, sometimes throw notes.
A little communication there. But the only thing they
wanted to talk about was ask you if you had any tobacco
and we had some and we usually filled a match box full
if we had it and throw it over. We could buy matches
at the store.
I believe you told me they had women in the prison.
Powers: Yes, in the particular building I was in, I would say
there was at least one woman there all the time some-
where in the building. For a long time on the same
floor. When I left, there were two women in a cell
on the same floor. Now my building was building
# 2, in building # 1 there were, it seemed to vary quite
often the number of women but there was as many as
twenty or more at one time. The only way we could
see them they had to walk in front of our building to
get to the bathroom.
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This small court yard, I take it you went from your
cell into the court yard and you could walk round and
round, they never let you go out of the court yard to
exercise ?
Powers: No, just in this cell, it was a pretty small circle
to walk in to really get up a good fast walk, but
we could jog around it some and there was a bench
right in the center, cemented into the ground, metal
pipes with a wooden top. Do a few push ups on that
occasionally and a little exercise out there.
This court yard wasn't roofed over, it was open?
Powers: No, it was open. When it rained we didn't have to
go walk, but, if we were out there when it was
raining we sometimes didn't get in before we got wet
because they had to take other people in.
Only you and your cell mate used this court at one time ?
How many hours a day was this ?
They allowed us two hours a day.
That was morning and afternoon?
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Powers: At first it was morning and afternoon and then they
had to do it all at one time. In the summer time
we took the full two hours to get the benefit of the
sun shine. In the wintertime the sunshine never
shines in those courts because the shadow of the
building and the angle of the sun. We usually spent
one hour in the wintertime.
Tell me about the medical attention in the prison now
Gary?
Powers: This was a hospital building I was in, and apparently
it not only served the prison there but what my cell
mate told me and maybe what some of these other
people that came to talk to us occasionally mentioned.
I don't know exactly where I got it from, but other
prisoners were brought there for medical attention.
It seemed there was tuberculosis in the prison.
Occasionally, you could see where someone had spit,
pinkish color, a little blood. My cell mate said
that in one of the other buildings they had definately
tuberculosis. In the building I was in on the same
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floor there was one man that wrote a note and said
he was sick with tuberculosis. He wrote it in English
and wrote it to me.
But, you never saw this man.
I didn't see him, I might have seen him at some other
time but when he threw the note I didn't see him throw
it.
You didn't see many other people. Or any other people?
I could see them only out the window as they would go
to the bathroom and back.
This was how far?
Oh
A hundred feet?
Powers: No it was closer than that. I was on the second floor,
from my point of vision that was 20 feet or so from
the ground there was a wall in front of the prison,
maybe here was the building, there was a wall outhere,
I was on the second floor here, the gate was here, the
gate was directly in front of the cell that I was in. These
people would either walk out of our building in the center
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here through this gate over here to the bathroom
or from this building back behind us, now this isn't
getting on the tape.
That doesn't make any difference.
Come around in front of our building. From my building
and building # 1 anyone who went to take a bath had
to go through the gate in front of my cell. We observed
quite a bit from there when we could. I got caught one
time standing up and looking out the window, all they
did was knock on the door and tell me to get down.
Did you see anyone that you think might have been
an American?
Powers: No, I didn't. I was looking very closely.
I knew you would.
Powers: I saw two people that came there, I mean four people
that came there just within, I don't know exactly when
they got there, but, I know they hadn't been there
a month and a half , two months before I left. They
definately were not Russians. My assumption and
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my cell mate's assumption also was that they were the
two German tourists and the two Dutch tourists.
But we have no way of knowing. One was tall with
glasses one was redheaded, well we will go into this
later I suppose.
We will take up those people and best description
possible. Tell me about reading materials, what
were you along those lines?
Powers: They had a prison library there but very few books
in English. They had some, but not alot.
Gary, let me back up a little bit, on your medical
treatment while you were there, what occured to
you I remember you said you had diarrhea and
so forth while you were in Moscow now you said
it kind of cleared up down here.
Powers: Yes, it cleared up down here, I may have had it once
or twice while I was there. Maybe even more than
that in the eighteen months I was there. Now -
Now, did you have any sickness while you were there?
Powers: I had headaches several times, might have been caused
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by reading too much or something. I was sick and
stayed in bed one day with a fever of some kind.
I didn't ask for the doctor to come and it was better
that afternoon and everything was alright. There
was another time with a bad cold that they would
have a nurse go around and administer the medicine
usually nose drops primarily and something like
aspirin. She was going to give me a shot of penicilin
for a cold one time, but I am allergic to penicilin
and wouldn't let her give it to me. She gave me some
other, I figured sulphur or something :Like that in
capsul form.
How about this rash you said.
They never could cure that, they gave me some stuff
that would keep it from bothering me but it never made
it well. Each morning almost for the total time I was
there or from say two or three weeks after I arrived
there until the time I left a small piece of cotton with
a little alcohol poured on it that I was to clean this
with and some sort of salve to put on the rash. It
would keep it from bothering me, keep it from itching
but it wouldn't cure it.
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Other than what we have mentioned now, did you have
any other ailments while there?
Is that a modern medical facility and in the building.
It was in the building on the fourth floor, very primitive,
very primitive by a good American dentists standards.
The woman dentist. In fact all the doctors were women
and the dentist was a woman. All the nurses were women --
Did the dentist do a job sufficient so that you didn't have
pains thereafter, you didn't have a tooth ache as a result
of it?
Powers: No, I never had a toothache as a result, she seemed to
be, I would say, a good dentist. But, she was working
with very bad equipment. She put the fillings in, in one
tooth I think it came out twice the third one stayed and
another tooth it came out once and the second stayed
and the other one I haven't had any trouble yet.
What kind of fillings were they? I'm just curious.
Powers: It seems like a white powder with cement of;some kind.
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They aren't metallic like ours. They don't seem to
as hard as permanent as ours.
Our medical men will go over that.
Powers: But I am going to have these taken out.
You have x-rays. You never had x-rays while there?
No x-rays in connection with your teeth?
Powers: No, in fact now this might be important, when I was
first apprehended taken to Moscow given a physical
examination I can never them looking in my mouth.
Or if they did look in my mouth they were not
curious about the two partial plates that I have.
They are metallic and I thought they might even be
taken away from me. It was several weeks before,
I think when I had a cold, someone was looking in
my throat, the doctor, and asked me what this metal
piece was that went across the roof of my mouth was.
I told her it was a partial plate and she didn't ask to
see it or anything. So, it might be someway to carry
something with a person sometime.
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Did you have any other medical problems there?
I asked them, I think this was last November,
November of 61, I had this heart beat, this heart
skip and it was worrying me quite a bit. Some-
times it was happening very often. Sometimes
when I would lay down to try to go to sleep,
several times a minute. I had been told for a long
time, this had been with me before, that it was nothing
dangerous but it had never happened this often before.
I think it was pure nervousness and tension. I asked
the doctor to come and examine me because it was
worrying me very much at this time. She came and
took my blood pressure, listened to my heart and the
pulse rate and said that the pulse was a little irregular.
The blood pressure was good but maybe, you know how
the blood pressure is read, there is a high number and
a low number, she said the low number was a little high
but nothing to worry about, could be just nervous tension.
She said that the EKG that they had there in the hospital
was not in operation but when they got it in operation they
would give me a test if I wanted it. I asked them about the
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EKG and she said, well it never did get into operation
and I never did get one.
Any medicine for the heart?
Powers: No, I think I had two colds, one while I was at Moscow
and if I am not mistaken only one while I was there at
Ladenia. I'm not sure, I might have had one in the
winter of , well at the most three colds but two I
can definately remember and the other I can't remember
exactly. That was usually just nose drops and
something like aspirin.
They seemed willing to give you medical assistance if
you asked for it?
O yes.
How about the ear problem you remember you mentioned
that your ears rang and rang.
Powers: This, is something I never noticed before May the 1st.
I don't know, I thought at first I thought it was the result
of the fast descent of the airplane and would disappear in
a few days or weeks. But, I have had a constant ringing
in my ears since that day and since you mentioned it I
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hear it right now, but normally just talking I don't
pay any attemtion to it, but it's there and very
loud, when I'm thinking about it.
I was asking you then what sort of reading materials
were you permitted?
Powers: Well they had a library there, a few English books -
not many, I had made arrangements with my wife
and she had left some pocketbooks with me - she
me
had gotten/20 or 30 of those and I had made arrange-
ments for her to send some American books each
month. I think I told her 10 to 15 - something like
that, and I usually received somewhere around 8 to
10 and they - first time 'too,, -they took and looked at
them before they gave them to me, but after that..
when a package came in they just gave it to me.
They didn't spend through the pages and search
them or anything ?
Powers: Sometimes they would do that and sometimes they
waildn't, and that seemed odd to me.
Could you visit the library?
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Powers: No. They had a list that would go around but it
was in Russian and my cellmate made a translation
of the English part of the list, also after I'd read
the books they had there - well I didn't read the
political books, they had several of those in English,
I checked one out by Lenin, I can't remember the
name of, I kept it about six months, thought it
would look pretty good and I tried to read some -
I might have read 40 or 50 pages, but it was
completely Greek to me, so I just kept it in the cell
for approximately six months.
You mentioned you got the London Daily Worker ...
Yes sir, after I got there I asked them about news-
papers and they told me to make a list of the newspapers
I would like to receive - newspapers and magazines.
I put down New York Times, News Week, Time, I put
down National Geographic magazine - this was the
magazine I wanted and Popular Mechanics and Popular
Science and it didn't take them very long at all to come
back and tell me that they could'nt give me the New York
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Times and News Week, the Time magazine, but
they could give me National Geographic and that
they had it there, that I dint have to have my
wife get it for me, also they gave me Nation - the
Nation magazine which I think is a Liberal Party
magazine here in the States, I'm not sure. The
American Worker, the British Daily Worker and
the Moscow News, with the exception of the
Daily Worker, it was all weekly publications.
You recognized the last three for what they were?
Oh yes, I knew what they were, but the Daily
Worker from England was my biggest news source,
and it had many news items that never appeared
over the Russian radio or Russian press. I guess
because of where it is located they have to print
some news in order to sell it butgoodnews is always
pointed - it's pointed to the left and the Worker, I
never did like that, it just looked like a poor news-
paper of editorials - that's what it seemed to me
Moscow news was something - just propaganda -
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that's all, a few interesting things occasionally,
but some sports news.
Did you discuss these periodicals with your cell-
mate ?
Yes. I-bread them too and we read them ...
Did he identify them as propaganda?
Powers: Oh yes.
I'll talk about him a little later - again we've
mentioned him in passing. Let me ask you
about your system of writing letters here. You
started earlier .. .
Powers: Yes, at Moscow there was no system. They
told me I could write my parents and my wife which
I did. When I got an answer, I was able to answer
that letter but I was watched while I was writing - I
was given a certain amount of paper, etc. When I
arrived at Vladimir , they told me I could write four
letters a month. This was in September when I got
there - September the 9th - on that day they told me
this. I think it was in January of 1961 that they told
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me that since I had been receiving a lot of mail
that I could answer all that was necessary -
write all that was necessary.
January of 161?
Yes, and I did increase my writing, in fact I think
through 161, I averaged oh 8 or so letters a month,
to my sisters, wife, mother and father.
Did you write to anybody else?
Yes, I wrote - I received several letters from
Oh, this is a ...
people in the States and one from one young boy, I
think, 19 years old, in Holland, a letter from some
lady in Canada, and one lady here in the United States
wrote me almost once a week for quite a while. I
wrote her twice.
You remember her name?
It was a Mrs. Burk, but she's gotten a divorce in
the meantime and I don't know what her name is,
but my parents do know her. though.
Powers: Well, they had met her - I think my father went
somewhere into Indiana to make some sort of a
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Were you able to cash the check?
speech - that's what one of my sister's told me,
and they had met her while they were there and
she wrote me and said that she had met them and
all this, and she kept writing and kept writing
and I felt that I ought to answer and .. .
Did you receive any crank letters?
I received one that I guess you ... well, it was
just an odd letter, but I don't think it was the type
letter you would refer to as a "crank" letter.
This was from -- mailed in Canada, contained a
check for ten Canadian dollars for smokes, made
payable to the US Air Force pilot - Francis Gary
Powers, shot down in the Soviet Union. That was
payable to that long line of names, sir.
Powers: Well, I never did try. I still have it. I think it is
a certified check, I'm not sure. The return address,
it gave a name, c/o M. V. D. Russian Embassy in
Canada. Now this was the return address on this
thing. It was written - well I'll show you the letter
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I have it downstairs, I'm sure, I don't think they
took it out - I'm pretty sure they didntt.-- stating
that he was very sorry that I was in prison, that
he could have gotten me out but the CIA would not
pay no attention to him and he was enclosing $10
for smokes.
We'll look at the letter later and check out this
name - there might be something of interest.
January or February of '61, most of them from
California, apparently as a result of a small article
appearing in some newspaperman's column - saying,
"Remember Powers on Christmas" or something
like that.
Did they let you see them?
Powers: Yes, they did. They came to the Embassy and they
sent them - part of them had been censored, part of
them had'nt been. I would say more than half of
them were opened, but they looked like someone had
gotten tired of opening these Christmas cards and
just sent them on in. They came to the Embassy and
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the Embassy forwarded them on to me.
Tell me about the censorship problem, both in
and out.
Powers: All letters that I received had been opened. That's
all I know about that.
Any obvious evidence of censorship coming in?
Powers: Not after I left Moscow. But before I left Moscow,
yes. Well, yes, yes - there is some obvious there
at Vladimir, but we'll start at Mo scow, first.
I don't think I received a complete letter while I
was at Mosoow from my wife or my parents.
Was it penciled out or blacked out or cut out?
Powers: A lot of it was cut out, a lot of it was inked out, and
it was usually just a sentence - one time there from
one of my wife's letters, almost a half of page, I
guess, was gone. At Vladimir as far as I know from
my wife, not a thing was - or nothing was ever
blacked out and nothing ever cut out and I think I
received all her letters. I tried to get her to
number these letters, so that if one was missing it
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would break the sequence but she filed-up a little
on it late last year. So I don't think any were
missing but it is possible and I can't be sure.
Now, going out.
Powers: Well, I had two letters written last October from
one of my sisters at Falls Church that Ididn't
receive. There was one letter written in November
from my parents that I did not receive. There
was one letter written in December from my
parents that had ... I received a part from my
mother but did not receive the part from my father.
As far as I know that is all that was missing.
An on these truly =Wletters you can't say they
were censored, you simply didn't get them:
Powers: I just did not receive them.
Could be lost in the mail?
Powers: Yes. Could be, I just don't know where they are.
Tell me about going out. How was this set up?
My going out letters, well ...
Well tell me this, you were allowed to purchase
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stationary, is that it - paper?
Powers: Well the only kind of paper they furnished was --
that they had there was what you called "copy books"
which I used quite a bit of because I ran out of
paper.
This kind of stuff ?
Powers: Some of it was a little rougher than this, some of
it I think a little bit smoother, all about the same.
I had some - - my wife and had left some stationary
with me and sent some in a package for me and I
had that for a while , my cellmate's parents sent
him some stationary that he let me use when I ran
out of mine for a while . When we both ran out, we
used the copy book paper. I tried to get them to
buy me some, they said they would try and they
brought in some real slick - something like drawing
paper of some kind, I don't know what you call it
but you couldn't write letters on it, it was too
heavy and actually for ball-point pens it was too
slick, too smooth. Apparently they didn't have no
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stationary for sale in that city of over a hundred
thousand people, I don't know. He said "yeh, we'll
ft 1,
get it for you and never did get it - couldn't find
rr
any, he said. This was the officer in charge of the
prison. This officer in charge - not in charge of
the prison, but this building I was in. This officer
changed in January of '61 to a Lieutenant - from a
Major to a Lieutenant.
What about - were you told you could write four
pages or three pages or .. .
Powers: No, they didn't say anything about that. At first they
said four letters and then later as many as necessary.
In other words, you could have written and answered
as many letters as you wanted.
Powers: I could have written more letters than I did write.
The only thing was - about the writing - constantly
with my cellmate - I think he was alright but yet I
felt that I couldn't let him know that I knew any type
of code that I could communicate with, so I tried it
twice and almost got caught twice, so I quit and
thinking that I would wait until I had something that
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II
would be of more importance. I didn't know what
to say, I was only going to ask if there were any
questions . I did have an opportunity to hurriedly
go thTnugh my wife's letters once after I had made
out these forms to go by while my cellmate was
asleep. And I saw nothing in her letters...
Did you try any of these super codes out?
Powers: Well, I guess I insinuated a few things and said
a few things that maybe the people I was writing
to could understand, but this usually I think,
pertained to only personal matters. As far as
getting a message out to you people ... no.
Now, you wrote the letter, put it into the envelop,
unsealed, ...
Powers: Unsealed, put the stamps on it - they got the
stamps for me - my stamps had to be brought at
the Post Office special - the rest of the people
could get them there in prison. In fact the envelops
were already stamped, but since this was inter-
national airmail they had to get them from the Post
Office. Unsealed, turn it in to someone, and for
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a long time I could only give it to the officer in
charge of the building.
But not the guard?
Not the guard. The sergeant came around every
morning at 8'oclock to look at the cells and that's
when you usually turned them in but I had to wait
to give it to the officer - sometimes he wasn't
there, sometimes he was delayed ....
Would he come to the cell and collect it?
Yes. All I had to do was tell the guard I wanted
to see him and he would come up to the cell and I
would give him the letter and ...
cvw2ovCp
How long before some of the c .n s stuff got back
to you to re-write or what happened?
Powers: Oh, while I was there at the prison, there was only
two or three times that something came back. I
wrote a letter February of '61 to my wife - she had
asked me about my cellmate and I was telling her
about him without mentioning the name - wrote
a letter just about the same to my sister previously
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which went through and didn't come back, but
this one came back, I couldn't write it. Couldn't
say anything about my cellmate. There was
something else in one or two that I put in that
they brought back for me to mark out - I don't re-
member whose letter it was in, but I usually try to
write the type of letter that I figure would go.
You mentioned previously, I think, that you had
put in some - what you knew to be pro-Communist
material.
Powers: Oh, yes. This was only later. I got in my mind to
sort of a plan or idea that it wouldn't hurt to let
them think that perhaps I was believing some of the
stuff they were saying and I also criticized them also,
to make it appear that I was being completely objec-
tive and well it was in January I remember writing
to a couple of my sisters some stuff that was written
for the censo.p, and I was hoping that my family would
realize this. I didn't write too much of this to my
wife because of the difficulty we were having and I
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didn't know how she would react to this.
You weren't instructed to write in any of your mail
to write such-and-such a thing?
Powers: Oh, no they never said to write this or dont't write
about this. Well they did say don't write about the
cellmate, they did say this, that was one thing, but
they didn't say you must write this or yoirletters
won't go, or anything like this.
Now lets talk again, picking up your routine - you've
got a pretty good picture going - now from your point
of arrival at Vladimir to the point of notification that
you were moving out, was there anything of particular
interest or anything unusual that occurred at this time2
You have a cellmate and I'll probably talk about him
later.
Powers: From the period of arrival until I left, anything
unusual. One thing I noticed was that they were
tightening down on their --- making it a little rougher
(Such as)
for their prisoners. It didn't seem to affect my cell-
mate and myself and probably other people who were
on what they called the "light regime" I don't know.
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When we first got there, the rules were that everyone
could write two letters a month and receive one
package a month. Within the past three months that
was ... they could write one letter a month, receive
one package every six months,. from home and in one
of those prisons support from home is almost
necessary. Without it, it would be i ery bad.
From a mental point of view would you press it?
Well not only that, from a food point of view.
A food point of view.
Powers: The food - if you get hungry enough you can eat it
and I guess it's alright. There was enough of it, but
the preparation ...
And you noticed a somewhat tightening up, but it
did not affect you? Did it affect your,cellmate?
Powers: No - didn't affect him.
During the period that we are now talking about,
were your cellmate unaccountably absent from the
cell at any given times? Was he called out for any-
thi ng ?
Powers: There was one time - oh, just a day or two after I
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got there. He told me he was expecting someone
to come from Riga, that the capital of Latvia, to
ask him some questions about something he had
written. And within I'd say about a month after I
was there, probably earlier than a month, he
went one day, just for a short period of time, well
about an hour I guess, not too short, he expected
to go back, he said but never was called bac? or
anything like that again. The only other time that
I can remember that we were out of each other's
sight was when we took showers, he would be in one
booth, I'd be in another, we'd see each other on the
way to and from the shower, so it looked as though
he didn't contact anyone.
So then after this- after this single call-out period
when he was allegedly questioned about something at
Riga, was there any perceptible change in his attitude,
behavior?
Did you notice any ... did he ask any acute questions
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any se64e things?
Powers: No - I was trying to be very observant about this
and try to see if he was real interested in any-
thing - special. I noticed he would look or become
interested if I mentioned anything that had happened
to me on May the 1st or anything like that, but it
could be normal curiosity or it could be something
else. I don't think he was a "plant" but I was never
sure.
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Interr-: Did he ask any questions that would indicate that he
was a technical man? An engineer, let's say.
Powers: Well, he seemed to know quite a bit about radio. That
was the training he got in England he said. As far as
asking me about airplanes and so forth - no - he knew
very little about that stuff. He said he'd always
wanted to fly but had never learned. He'd known
another Latvian tk,sk in the Army that was in the
German Air Force.
Interr-: You said that as far as you could recall ha had made
no real slips or no obvious contradictions.
Powers: I could not recall a single contradiction in the story
he told me and we talked about it several times.
Interr-: If this man was a phony, he was good, huh?
Powers: Yes.
Interr-: .........
Powers: Let's see, now, there was one thing -- Well, it slipped
my mind right now but there was something along
that line.
Interr-: Did you ever acuse him of being a plant?
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Powers: I told him that I thought that he might be.
Interr-: How'd he react?
Powers: He didn't particularly like it and he seemed to be
worried. You see, when I first got there, he told
me to cheer you - you won't be here a year from now.
He didn't miss it much, about six months. This was
in November. I remember. He said you won't be
here next November. But the other prisoners in the
building knew him. They would sometimes call him
by name out the window when we were walking
or in one of the notes asking for tobacco. They would
either throw them across the wall or usually from the
windows by name and none of them ever talked harsh
to him or called him any names or anything like that
which I believe they would do if he wascknown
stooge of some kind.
Interr-: Didthey ever harass you?
Powers: No, I thought when I first got there I might get some
of that, but the only thing like that was just - I guess
within the month before I left. I got a long note in
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didn't start acknowledging - he said now don't get
angry when I say this - but if you do not start
acknowledging my greetings I will tell all. the other
prisoners here that you are a coward and a communist,
and he repeated again - don't get angry . He didn't
mean to make me angry but - I think maybe, he might
have been a little off. But it was written in good
English - better than the previous letter, that probably
the same man wrote. The previous one was something
about - it was a little poem - that when I return to
the great land across the sea that I would have many
things to tell my grandmother and it said - I can if
you are the man - and I got the impression that he
would give me information if I would take it. This
was at one Pnd of the building and you had to be
walking in Court No. 1 to see this window. And it
was a long time before I ever got back to that place
again and never did see this man or no communications
ever again. You see they could communicate with me
or with us through the windows at the back of the cell
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but we could never get anything to them.
Interr-: Sort of a one-way communication only?
Powers: Yes.
Interr-: Now, nothing unusual occurs then really during this
period? There were no prison riots - there were no -
Powers: No - no riots, but several fights in the cells.
Interr-: Fights in the cells.
Powers: And part of this tightening up program that seemed to
be going on was that - well, they announced it over
the speaker system that somebody translated to me -
that one of the prisoners had picked up the tea kettle
and hit an officer over the head with it. He was
sentenced to death for this - the officer was not
killed. In fact, no skull fracture - kx just skin broken,
but the sentence was death and the man who told
this over the PA system said that he had talked
to the man - that he was real nervous and real sorry
for what he had done and they would try to do some-
thing about - maybe try to get this sentenc8 off, but
heard no more about it. There was one other - well,
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there was several facts. You could hear them some -
occassionally you could hear a window break, hear
someone groaning, but you'd go out for a vccx walk
and there would be someone screaming in a cell
and you could see that there was no one around -
the guard would be there looking in trying to get him
to be quiet and it didnLt - at first I thought someone
was maybe torturing these people and it scared me.
I'm sure that they were not - I think it was just the
people themselves.
Interr-: Were you ever moved out of Vladimir to visit anything?
Powers: No, I never left the walls of the place until - a -
Interr-: Did you have any visitors ?
Powers: There were two groups of people. One of them were
the - seemed like aircraft experts that came.
Interr-: This is where you described the fat man - sixty years
old ----
Powers: Yes.
Interr-: And the other group?
Powers: I don't know whether the other group was the same or
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something else. I've been trying to think. I might
have made a notation of that in some of the books I
have downstairs. But Em not positive. Oh, there
is one name I wanted to mention.
Interr-: Yes ?
Powers: Brick. B-r-i-c-k? I suppose.
Interr-: What is brick?
Powers: It is a man's name.
Interr-: And who is this man2
Powers: He spoke English. He wasn't i,1 the same building
but my cel.lmate had lived with him - no - hadn't
lived with him but went to ...... with him and talked
to him in English. His first name was Evchini (? ph)
or something like that. I don't know how you spell it.
Interr-: Y cx Y-e-v-c-h-i-n-i - That's phoenetic. Yevchini.
Powers: Seemed like a "G" , but that's close enough.
Interr-: Brick - would that be a nickname?
Powers: That was igutx his last name. So my cellmate told
me and he supposedly worked for the Americans or
contacted them in Germany after the war - went to
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the States, I think, for some sort of t:rainirig - that
was what my cellmate was telling me about him - that
he had gotten from him previous to my being there - had
come back to the Soviet Union - walked off of the
plane and they picked him up immediately. And
apparently he'd been there quite chile. I saw him
a couple of times while I was walking out of the end
of building #1. He was cleaning the windows or
something.
Interr-: Any chance of describing him from that distance?
Powers: No, I couldn't give you a good description.
Interr-: Did he have a hat on?
Powers: Some sort of something on his head. I don't remember
whether it was a hat or just a sort of skull cap type
thing.
Interr-: Was he a white man?
Powers: Yes.
Interr-: But you couldn't determine his size?
Powers: No, I could just see his face. His face was fairly thin,
X looked like he might be a little on the tallish side.
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Interr-: How about any hair that showed - white or red or dark?
Powers: I don't think he was clean shaven and it seemed that
it was dark.
Interr-: Looked like he might have had kind of a beard?
Powers: Yeh. Not a cultivated beard but just hadn't shaved
for a day or two. As well as I can remember, it was
dark.
Interr-: And this was the only time you saw this man ?
Powers: I might-have saw him about twice in this window. He
seemed to have a job of maybe cleaning up over there
in that building.
Interr-: And the information came from your cellmate ?
Powers: Yes. He had been taken to the Little Theatre they have
at the same time and they talked - he said three or
four times. He tried - he said he tried to get the
officers to transfer - to put them together and it
apparently was a mistake that they were together at
the theatre because they immediately stopped that
when they found out they had been.
Interr-: Did you ever get a chance to go to this theatre?
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Powers: Yes, when I first got there for several. weeks - al.mo.61
once a week; out then it got down to once a month.
Interr-: You didn't see this Brick at the theatre? That's what
I was getting at.
Powers: Oh - no. The theatre consisted of a projection room
and a regular room - about the size of this room.
Interr-: Well, that's not a very large room.
P wers: I know it isn't very large but - it was sixteen
millimeter type. My cellmate and myse~f had to set
in the projection room and look through a glass over
the heads of the other-oh-thirty-forty other people sit-
ting very crowded in this other room to the screen and
there was a couple of times that the prisoners put on
some sort of a concert, the prisoners from this building
#3 where what they called where the workers lived.
They went out in troops of about fifty every day somewhere
around the prison there to shops or something and worked
and they all marched by about four times a day. And they
would get together-I think twice they would put on some
entertainment and we got to see that but we couldn't talk
to these other prisoners.
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Ititerr-: You was kept segregated when you weit to these things ?
Powers: Yes. The only thing - we could talk to the projectionist.
My cellmate talked to him some when the guards weren't
paying too much attention. Sometimes they stepped out
and left us there with him alone.
Interr-: Now you mentioned that you had two types of visitors
or two sets of visitors - one was the group you
identify with the fat man - the other might be the same
or perhaps another group.
Powers: I can't be positive about those two sets. It seems to
me there was two sets. The last ones who came,
I believe were these aircraft men - that was in
December of Sixty. The other set was before that
and I don't know - I can't remember just what they
wanted or why they were there.
Ithterr-: Well, the fat man definitely talked about the aircraft?
Powers: Yes. And one of the men who was a technician of
some kind did the interpreting although Rodichev was
there.
Interr-: We'll show you some pictures on that?
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Interr-: But the other group. Do you remember if they were
technicians too or did they ever talk ---
Powers: They were some sort of technicians.
ILterr-: ---ever talk about the place?
Powers: I don't know whether it was the pla~ie or equipment.
Oh - oh - no - I think it was Marx special equipment they
was talking about.
Interr-: And how long did these interviews last ?
Powers: One of them lasted - I think - two hours. The one
about the aircraft, I think three hours - the other
about two hours, I believe.
Interr-: Was it friendly?
Powers: Yes - no - they just asked questions and I told them
I'd forgotten all this stuff.
Interr-: Did they ask you to draw pictures ?
diagram
Powers: Yes. They wanted me to draw a pxx of the
cockpit and I told them that I couldn't remember
everything that I put a few T-33 instruments in a
U-2 and so forth.
Interr-: Did they show you pictures ?
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Powers: No.
Interr-: Or technical drawings ?
Powers: No -- no technical drawings.
Interr-: Did they bring any of the equipment down that allegedly
came from your plane?
Powers: No. This was the time that they asked me - see - I
hadn't been telling them before about the airplane - I
hadi't mentioned anything about gust controls - at this
particular time they asked me why the flaps we,it up as
well as down so they had found out apparently through
their studying - I told them during this time I couldn't
remember everything it had been so long since I'd
been in the airplane - I'd flown other types of airplanes
and I might get them confused. I purposely told them
that there was an electrical trim ( ) tab on the rudder
of the U-2 - which there wasn't. They immediately
caught that and looked at each other and sort of
grinned, but never said a word about it. Didn;t
say that's a lie or anything. And I just pretended I
didn't notice them grinning. and then talked to them
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but I think that. it might make them skeptical of
anything I said to them there.
Interr-: But your impression was that they had studied the
wreckage?
Powers: They had studied it - they had studied it.
Interr-: And they had some questions they wanted to see
whether you would answer or could answer.
Powers: And they knew definitely that there wasn't a trim (,?w}
tab because whe:-i I said that there was there was - a -
this glance I caught - they knew that there was not
such a thing.
Interr-: It was all friendly and - a -
Powers: Yeh - they didn't say a word -- didn't say you're lying
or we don't think that is right or anything like that,
just let it go.
Interr-: Any other visitors now?
Powers: This K+ C: Colonel from Vladimir who I think was the
Deputy Director of KGB in the region of Vladimir. He
came out several times.
Interr-: What'd he want to talk about?
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Powers: He came out two or three times in January of sixty-one
and he gave me the impression that I might be released
soon. Now I don't know - he never came out and said
you would be but but left me with the impression that
I might be; and he made about three trips. This was
when the presidency was changing and Khrushchev
had made a New Year's toast that he was going to
forget about the U-2 incident. Now this might have
just been his own opinion - I don't know or maybe it
was plannned.
Interr-: Frank, do you think these visits were - that he was
acting under orders? Or do you think that it was just
more of a sightseeing expedition by him?
Powers: Well, I think that it was planned because he had made
several visits. He made two or three in January and
then skipped awhile - two or three months - about
two months I guess - came again - skipped a couple
of more months and somewhere in the last of May or
first of June he came and I got the same impression
again that - the Kennedy-Khrushchev meeting - I
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would be released.
lnterr-: Did he speak English ?
Powers: No - he had another interpreter that he brought with
him - I assumed that he was the same maa .........
Int.err-: Did he utter this man's name?
Powers: Never heard his :-lame.
lnterr-: Never heard his nlame.
Powers: I hadn't heard this Colonel's name either - but - maybe
I did hear his name - I don't know - yes, I did - my
celimate told. me that his name was - something -
and it was the same as one of the Russian writers -
I think a short story writer - if I see a few of those
names I might be able to pick this out.
Interr-: Uh-huh.
Powers: This man accompanied me all the way from Vladimir
to the bridge between East and West Berlin. He picked
up another man to interpret for him in Moscow and let
the other interpreter either stay in Moscow or go back -
I don't know what happened to him.
l.nterr-: Would you furnish a description of this man ------
T
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Powers: There was a ----
laterr-: Oh, go ahead.
Powers: There was a major that came around quite often - KCB
major - Yakovlov.
Interr-: Let's spell it.
Powers: Ya - Y-a ---
lnt:err-: kov
Powers: k-o-v-
Interr-: l-o-v-
Powers: 1-o-v-
Interr-: Can you put a first name on this?
Powers: No. I just remember there was a Major Yakovlov.
Interr - : And he came often?
Powers: He used to come almost every week just to come in
and ask how's everything going - any questions - my
cel.lmate would do the interpreting.
Interr-: He didn't speak E.glish?
Powers: No, but he seemed to be the permanent K~C - what is
it? - KGB representative acid he was around the prison
almost all the time. He seemed to be KGB representative
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at the prison.
Interr-: But, this other man - this senior mate - this Colonel
Powers: Was his boss.
Interr-: ---was his boss. Do you mind giving us a quick
description on the Colonel?
Powers: Well, he was heavy - about my height - saw him a
couple - three times in uniform - always dressed
fairly nice - much nicer than most any of the other
people I saw.
Interr-: Well dressed in uniform?
Powers: In uniform and out of uniform. He wore an overcoat
in the wintertime with a persian lamb collar and
a persian lamb cap.
Interr-: How about his face?
Powers: His face was fairly white complexion.
Interr-: Dark hair or what kind of hair?
Powers: It was sort of - hair was getting sort of gray, but it
was never dark hair - there was some light hair
and gray hair mixed.
Interr-: Wear glasses ?
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Powers: Not all the time, but he had glasses with him I thuik
every t.irne [saw him.
lnterr-: Mustache ? Beard?
Powers: No - no mustache - no beard.
lnterr-: What was the shape of his face?
Powers: Round.
Iuterr-: You said he was a heavy man.
Powers: Yes. I'd say he weighed I'd say about two hundred
pou;.ds.
I:iterr-: Quite c', i:-,ky, then?
Powers: Yes, he was the heighth - about my height I suppose -
something like that.
lnterr-: Beard? Mustache?
Powers: No mustache - ao beard
lnterr-: Clean shaven then?
Powers: Clean shaven all. the time.
lnterr-: Now tell me about his hair. Did he wear it up i i a
pompadore, crew cut, long or what?
Powers: It seemed to me his hair was fairly thin -? I don't mea:r
that it - maybe receding a little i- front - but thin aad
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combed straight back and fairly long I guess, but it
was thin enough so that it didn't stick up even wne:1
it was back. It layed down fairly close to the head.
interr-: Anything unusual about this man? Any ticks or walk
witha limp or anything that you noticed? You said
he was a good dresser. Smoke incessantly?
Powers: No. He smoked very seldom, but did smoke
occassionally. He's the man I asked his personal
opinion on - I said, one of these times I saw him -
I asked his personal opinion on some sort of subject -
I can't remember what we were talking about at the
time - What do you think of this - you personally
think of this ? - And he said, well, I don't know -
I'd rather not say right now - I'd have to think about
it alittle more - and this was in my opinion because
there had been no official release on this thing. But,
the next time I saw him, he remembered and told me
his personal opinion. I think he got word from the
party or something, but I don't remember what
particular subject it was we were talking about.
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I asked Mm a `ew questions about the average wage
in the Soviet Union and he said it was fifty new
rubels per month, but some of those people working
there at the prison didn't make that much. I mean
he said that was the minimum wage, but these people
some of them didn't make that much.
Interr-: This .man brought his interpreter always?
Powers: Yes. Oh, there was a young girl, very nice lookiag
interpreter that came about twice with him. About the
first two times she came with him and from then on
it was a man.
Interr-: You couldn't identify this girl or this man?
Powers: No names.
Interr-: Well, we'll work on the descriptions of these people
later because they may turn up in some of our
pictures.
Powers: If they do, I think I'll definitely recognize them if it
is a good picture.
Interr-: Now, how about any other incidents - any other
visitors ?
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Powers: Well, occassionally there seemed to be an inspection
team that would come through the prison. I remember
one that consisted of some high ranking officers - I
don't know how high - but there were definitely two
or three colonels in the group - there were about
four or five people altogether - all bf them didn't come
in the cell, but the main ones did. Just sort of looked
around, asked questions, if there were any complaints
or anything like that. My cellmate nor I asked any
questions or complained. They turned around and
walked out.
Interr-: These are short - perfunctry visits then?
Powers: Yes.
Interr-: Now that takes care of our visitors. Now let's move
your
ahead withdm routine - I think we have a pretty good
picture of it - up to the point where you first suspected
to know that something was occuring.
Powers: You mean about my release?
Interr-: Yes. There is nothing else that transpires in between?
Powers: No.
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Interr-: You weren't informed of negotiations or anything?
Powers: No. Let's see. If I had a calendar I could give you
the exact dates which would be better. I think it was
the seventh - Wednesday, the seventh - was last
Wednesday the seventh?
Interr-: Yes:
Powers: At about 7:30 at night. my cellmate and I had juBt gone
to the toilet, we finished there - coming back I was
in front carrying the can - we got back to the cell and
the door to the stairway was between me and myself
and Yakovlov, this Colonel and the interpreter, the
man interpreter came into the floor that we were on
there, they looked toward our door, saw that it was
open because we were at the toilet at the time or
coming back from the toilet, and looked around and
saw us and sort of smiled - well, I got the impression
they were looking for us and wanted to talk to us -
especially because the interpreter was there - walked
back to the cell - they came in - the Colonel said -
he let my cellmate do the translating - I don't know
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what reason this was because usually the other man did.
And he said - how would you like to go to Moscow with me
tomorrow without any guards ? And I told him
immediately that I would like it very much because
I immediately thought - well the first thing - see
my cellmate was translating how would you like to
go to Moscow - I thought maybe I had a visitor and I
was going there to see him - but when he said without
any guards I assumed something was going on. This
was the night - Wednesday night - the seventh of
February. They told me to get my stuff together and be
ready to leave at six o'clock in the morning. I had
just receiveda package from the embassy that day and
the lieutenant that was in charge of the building that
I was kept in there said he would give it to me on
the eighth - but they told him apparently to come out -
he came out later about nine o'clock at night - took
me down to his office - we opened the package - got
some other stuff that I had there - pair of shoes -
tennis shoes that my wife had sent me - stuff like
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that - some food and brought it up to the cell. I left
all the food and some of the clothing that my wife had
bought me there for my cellmate - brought some of the
stuff - and neither one of us - neither my cellmate or
myself slept that night.
Interr-: Did your cellmate question you at all during that
period?
Powers: He told me not to worry about it - I was going home.
Interr-: He said he was going home?
Powers: He said I was going home. And he seemed to be very
happy about it. We'd become pretty good friends. I
hated to leave him there. Living with him so long and
so closely. One impression I got - well, I was thinking
I was going home too and he said there was no reason
to even think about it. You are going.
Interr-: No official word now thoughk?
Powers: No - no official word - just go with me to Moscow.
and he said without any guards - that's all. The next
morning at six o'clock I'd gotten up - shaved - I. got
some hot water - had a cup of coffee and I guess about
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ten minutes after six on the morning of the eighth
of February a guard came in and said - comeon.
Picked up this box that I had packed the stuff in -
left - followed the guard to the administration
building - I was told the night before we would be going
by train - followed the guard to the administration
building and the people had been informed the night
before - the suitcase I had there and clothing that
was in some sort of storage that they had somewhere
that that was to be gotten together and prepared and
it was there when I got to the administration building.
They gave me - well, they didn't give it to me - but they
my watch that my wife had bought me, my x g x ring,
the money that I had left - I think that's about all -
to this Colonel. ........ Stayed there I guess maybe
thirty minutes - went outside - got in a car - drove to
the railroad station - there was a chauffeur da~dW
driving the car - there was three of us who went.
The Colonel, Major Yakovlov and the interpreter.
They kept pretty close to me but I would probably would
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have had plenty of opportunity to run if I had wanted to
at that time.
Interr-: They were friendly2
Powers: They were f very friendly. More so than any other
time - I mean - I'm sure they knew what was going
on and I had a good idea what was going on. They
were always smiling - I didn't want to talk to them -
I was thinking a lot on this train.
Interr-: Did you get aboard a train.
Powers: Yes - I had to carry the suitcase and boxes at the time
and they were very heavy. They wouldn't carry them
at the time. They had a small shopping bag that one of
them - the interpreter I think - carried. Got on board
the train - they were the only people in this car.
Later on I think two or three women came on and
set down back behind me - I looked around and just
could see the top of the heads of three of them and
they got out somewhere else. The train made several
stops - very slow train. Got into Moscow - they took
me back to the same building -
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Interr-: Met by car and taken back to the same building?
Powers: Yes. People met them at the railroad station.
Everything was planned and timed pretty good. Out
of the people that met them there was a lieutenant
colonel in uniform - I never saw him before - who
was very friendly - he reached over and squeezed my
arm once in the car. Went back to the same prison
where the interrogation took place , the same floor
and cell - I think it was 81 - and it was about two
cells from the cell I had been in before - I think it
was 79. Talked to several people there - I don't
remember just how it was -
Interr-: What time did you arrive in Moscow?
Powers: It was after lunch - I'd say about one o'clock - xxK
something like that - let's see - what did they do -
they brought me to this cell - there was several
people I talked to - but they didn't say anything at
all about anything that was going on at the time -
they took me to the cell and and made
up the bed - it wasn't made up - the blankets and
sheets were all cleaned - we just put them on the bed.
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There were already two mattresses on the bed when
I got there this time. Someone came in and said
that they could buy me - that I had money and they
could buy me a good meal if I ax would pay for it
and I said, yes. They did that and brought back
a very good meal - best I'd had in a long time.
I think they gave me a shot of cognac with that meal
also and a strawberry soda or something. And I
laid down and took a nap that afternoon - I hadn't
slept the night before. I guess it was a three hour
nap - I don't know but it was getting fairly late when
I woke up. Somewhere around seven o'clock at night
they called me into an office - still in the prison
part of the building - not where I was interrogated or
anything - but it seemed like the officer in charge
of the prison - told me that I would be going to
Berlin in the morning by air - to be ready at - I
don't remember the exact time now. They said that
youhave a hundred and a - let's see - did they tell
me that I was going to be released - I dor_'t think
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so, but they may have done it at that time, but I
don't think they did. They might have told me on
Thursday night the eighth that I was going to be
realeased but I don't think they did. They said
that I would be going to Berlin in the morning - that
I had 124 rubels left -of money - they would take this
and turn it over to the - oh no - they asked me what
I wanted to do with it and I said well, can I get
it changed into other money in Berlin - they must have
told me that I was going to be released - they said
no you can't get it changed in any of the western
countries - they had to tell me that I was going to
be released. And they said what do you want to
do with it a,-id I told - and they asked me if there
was anything I wanted to buy and I told him there
was one phonograph record of one of their famous
singers. He said all of the shops are probably
closed and couldn't get any phonograph records.
I said - well, I don't know - maybe we could buy
some wine or something like that he said.
I said no I couldn't take any wine with me -- it would
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weigh too much, be too much and all that stuff.
He said - well, we can turn this into the American
Embassy and they could send you money for it, but
he said - how about gifts for your relatives or
something. Would you like to have some of those?
And, I said, yes, I would. He said , well, - he
looked at his watch - it was just about seven or
a little after seven - and got in a big hurry and
said that he would go out and buy them - and I told
him to buy something typically Russian that I could
give to my family as gifts.
Interr-: This was the officer of the prison?
Powers: No - it was a colonel. He seemed to be in ckarge of
this whole thing there - so they did tell me in Moscow
that I would be released - the same night because
this came up about the gifts for the family and so
forth. I'd forgotten that - I thought it was later.
Interr-: You don't have to hurry - we've got lots of tape.
Powers: They told me what time to be ready in the morning
for the trip. They gave me my watch and my ring
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that night, took me back to the cell and got me some-
thing to eat which they had boughten outside the
prison which tasted a little better than usual - no
cognac this time thouglmtx. I had one of these paper
back books with me that had come in the last package
that I read for awhile that night or tried to read - I
was:z't concentrating too good. Finally got to sleep
very late - after twelve o'clock - woke up about
five o'clock in the morning - they gave me three
pieces of sausage for breakfast with bread and coffee-
no - tea. Left the prison and back to the same office -
bought
oh - one of the guards *wumgimt me my suitcase the
night before with the money too - to transfer the stuff
in the box I had to the suitcase. I did that - got every-
thing ready - they came and we went downstairs - got
in a car - went to a military airfield - quite a
distance from Moscow - it took about an hour, I guess,
to get there. I definitely saw military airplanes
in the distance but predominantly aircraft type transport
there. At about nine o'clock they put me on a twin-
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engine - y6rcipocating engine - twin aircraft - there
tb was only three of us now - the interpreter, the
Colonel, there was some sort of flight attendant - I
don't know what - but he stayed in the cabin part of
the airplane with us .
Interr-: The colonel and the interpreter.
Powers: And this interpreter was the one that was picked up
in Moscow and not one that accompanied me from
Vladimir. It was the first time - I think -? that I
had seen this man.
Interr-: Stillwith the same colonel though?
Powers: Yes, same one.
Interr-: ..........
Powers: Myself and then the crew of the aircraft.
Interr-: What about the Stewart?
Powers: Well, he was part of the crew of the aircraft - I don't
know whether he was part of the crew, but he set
back in the aircraft .
Interr-: At any point had he indicated that anyone else was
involved.
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Powers: Oh, no - I asked him why - why they were doing this
after I had found out and he said - well, it was the
same story they released in the paper - that they
wanted to better relations and that my relatives had
appliedto - for ......
Interr-: I want to take a look at my .....
Interr-: I think it's safer that we quit now - we'll go down avid
have a beer and then come back and wind up on this.
We'll take our important one off first. This will be
Tape #13 of 17 February concluding at 3:17 P. M.
Mr. Powers,
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DATE 17 February
Tape #13
Copy No
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