CONVERSATION WITH SAM HOSKINSON, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80M00165A000600150002-1
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: C
• Document Page Count: 23
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 10, 2004
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: May 13, 1977
• Content Type: MFR

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OLC 77-2059
13 May 1977
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
SUBJECT: Conversation with Sam Hoskinson, National Security
-- Council Staff
1. Sam Hoskinson, NSC staff, called and gave me a brief
rundown on the President's meeting with the members of the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence at the White House this morning.
2. Mr. Hoskinson said that on the subject of an open intelligence
budget, the President held to the position taken by Admiral Turner in
the open budget hearings before the Select Committee, which was that
the Administration would not release the figure but if the Select
Committee was interested in pursuing this matter with the full Senate,
the Administration would not object to the release of one figure for all
U. S. intelligence activities. The President strongly opposed any
further breakout of intelligence budget data.
3. The President also expressed a view that the Select Committee
should have consulted him earlier regarding the statement 25X1
which it ultimately made public and inferred that he would hope that the
Committee would not resort to the Section 8 procedure as it did in
the --Incident.
4. On the subject of charters, the President indicated generally
that once the PRM-ll exercise is completed, he would he willing to
work with the Committee on the subject of intelligence charters but
took the position that these charters should not go into great detail.
This matter is being handled in the Executive Branch he said by the
Vice President and Admiral Turner. In this connection, Senator Walter
Huddleston (D., Ky.) expressed support for a strong DCI with line and
resource control and the President seemed to agree with that position.
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5. Mr. Hoskinson also mentioned that Senator Birch Bayh
(D., Ind.) indicated that he was very happy with the electronic
surveillance bill which has been worked in the Executive Branch.
Senator Barry Goldwater (R., Ariz.) expressed a view that the
Administration was reporting in too great detail to the Select
Committee on covert activities.
6. According to Mr. Hoskinson, at the end of the meeting,
-thee President had great praise for CIA saying that it was doing a
superb job and that its work was better than he had ever dreamed it
would be. He also gave a strong endorsement of Admiral Turner.
EO GE L. GARY
1.,egislative Counsel
Distribution:
Original - OLC subj
Original
I-OGC
1 - IC Staff
1 - Comptroller
OLC /GLC:baa
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MEMO1ANDUM FOR:
Attached is a revised edition of the talking
points dropped off in your office by Admiral Turner
yesterday.
EA
Date 9 May 1977
5 75 FORM 101 USE PREVIOUS
STAT
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SUGGESTED POINTS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE
WITH THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
1. Legislative Charters.
a. Willing to accept.
b. Want to work closely with the Committee:
(1) to avoid a situation in which
the legislative charters become too
detailed and tie down the specifics
of the intelligence process in too
permanent a manner.
(2) so that central purpose of
charter is not lost in unnecessary
debate over executive and legislative
privilege.
c. Hope charters and new Executive Order can be a
matching set.
d. Expect to have our proposed changes to Executive
Order ready by mid-June.
(1) Will discuss with Committee
prior to issuing.
2. Security of Information.
a. Imperative be able to hold important data.
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(1) Hope Select Committee can
shoulder most of Senate responsibility
for oversight of sensitive materials.
3. Open Budget.
a. Agreed not to object to disclosure of a single
budget figure in a desire to be more forthcoming-and open.
Am persuaded that only a single figure can be released within
the bounds of security. Am prepared to enforce a strict policy
on that regard within the Executive Branch.
b. It is now up to the Senate as to what you want to do.
Do not want to attempt to dictate to you because of the
accompanying responsibility also to maintain a strict adherence
to a policy of only one number.
4. Intelligence Oversight Board.
a. Have reconstituted the Intelligence Oversight Board
with three capable men. The Chairman has had some experience
in the intelligence business and hence will lead a modicum of
expertise. Senator Gore and Governor Scranton are, of course,
citizens with distinguished records of public service.
b. Have elected to disestablish the President's Foreign
Intelligence Advisory Board, largely in view of the increased
role that the Senate Select Committee is playing in reviewing-
the intelligence process. I anticipate a continuing and useful
dialogue with the Committee and hope that this will, in large
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measure, substitute for the Advisory Board. In addition,
such a Board must have access to all of the most sensitive
intelligence information. There is always some risk inherent
in simply expanding the numbers of people exposed to this
kind of information.
5. Electronic Surveillance Bill.
a. This Administration has submitted an Electronic
Surveillance Bill which should be effective in preventing
abuse of personal liberties of our citizens as a result of
improper electronic surveillance.
b. The Attorney General is developing a bill that will
similarly prevent abuses of physical surveillance.
c. The Attorney General is also developing legislation
to protect the rights of Americans overseas against all forms
of surveillance.
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SUGGESTED POINTS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE
WITH SPEAKER O'NEILL AND OTHER MEMBERS OF
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
1. House Select Committee on Intelligence.
a., Hope that the House can move expeditiously
in creating such a body.
b. The parallel committee in the Senate is
proving very useful.
c. Would hope that such a committee would
be able to assume some of the jurisdiction that
is presently spread over three committees in
the House, especially with regard to the necessary
.disclosure of highly sensitive information such
as covert operations and clandestine collection.
d. Would hope that the activities of this
committee could be exempted from Rule 11, whereby
any Member of the House can have access to the
records of any committee.
e. Have confidence in the Speaker's selection
of highly responsible members for such a sensitive
.operation.
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 _Z_
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2. Open Budget.
a. Agreed not to object to disclosure of a
single budget figure in a desire to be more
forthcoming and open. Am persuaded that only
a single figure can be released within the
bounds of security, and am prepared to enforce
a strict'policy on that regard within the
Executive Branch.
4. Intelligence Oversight Board.
a. Have reconstituted the Intelligence
Oversight Board with three capable men-. The
Chairman has had some experience in the intelligence
business and hence will lend a modicum of expertise.
Senator Gore and Governor Scranton are, of course,
citizens with distinguished records of public
service.
b. Have elected to disestablish the President's
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, largely in
view of the increased role that the Senate Select
Committee is playing in reviewing-the intelligence
process, and hopefully a House Select Committee
will play. In addition, such a Board must have
access to all of the most sensitive intelligence
information. There is always some risk inherent
in simply expanding the numbers of people exposed
to this kind of information.
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U
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 MEMORANDUM FOR ; The Vice President
FROM Director-of Central Intelligence
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9 May 1977
Attached are two talking papers for the
President's meetings. later this week with
Congressman O'Neill and Senator Inouye.
Attachment
The Director of Central Intelligence
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LB~i 6utn6tliy.i.u 11Arivr
STANSFIELD TURNER
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SUGGESTED POINTS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE
WITH THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
Legislative Charters.
a. Willing accept.
b. Want to work with the Committee to avoid
a situation in which the legislative charters
become. too detailed and tie down the specifics
of the intelligence process in too permanent
a manner.
c. Hope charters and new Executive Order
can be a matching set.
d. Expect to have our proposed changes to
Executive Order ready by mid-June.
(1) Will discuss with Committee prior
to issuing.
Security of Information.
a. Imperative be able to hold important data.
_(1) Hope Select Commitee can shoulder
most of Senate responsibility for oversight
of sensitive materials.
Open Budget.
a. Agreed not to object to disclosure of a single
budget figure in a desire to be more forthcoming
and open. Am persuaded that only a single figure
 -2-
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you want to do. Do not want to attempt to
dictate to you because of the accompanying
responsibility also to maintain a strict
adherence to a policy of only one. number.
Intelligence Oversight Board.
a. Have reconstituted the Intelligence
Oversight Board with three capable men. The
can be released within the bounds of
security. Am prepared to enforce a strict
policy on that regard within the Executive
Branch.
b. It is now up to the Senate as to what
Chairman has had some experience in the intel-
ligence business and hence will lend a modicum
of expertise. Senator Gore and Governor Scranton
are, of course, citizens with distinguished records
of public service.
dialogue with the Committee and hope that this
process. I anticipate a continuing and useful
b. Have elected to disestablish the President's
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, largely in
view of the increased role that the Senate Select
Committee is playing in reviewing the intelligence
will, in large measure, substitute for the Advisory
Board. In addition, such a Board must have access
There is always some risk inherent in simply
to all of the most sensitive intelligence information.
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expanding the numbers of people exposed to
this kind of information.
5., Electronic Surveillance Bill.
a. This Administration has submitted an
Electronic Surveillance Bill which should be
effective in preventing abuse of personal
liberties of our citizens as a result of
improper electronic surveillance.
b. The Attorney General is developing a
bill that will similarly prevent abuses of
physical surveillance.
c. The Attorney General is also developing
legislation to protect the rights of Americans
overseas against all forms of surveillance.
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SUGGESTED POINTS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE
WITH SPEAKER O'NEILL AND OTHER MEMBERS OF
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
1. House Select Committee on Intelligence.
a., Hope that the House can move expeditiously
in creating such a body.
b. The parallel committee in the Senate is
proving very. useful
c. Would hope that such a committee would
be able to assume some of the jurisdiction that
is presently spread over three committees in
the House, especially with regard to the necessary
disclosure of highly sensitive information such
as covert operations and clandestine collection.
d. Would hope that the activities of this
committee could be exempted from Rule 11, whereby
any Member of the House can have-access to the
records of any committee.
e. Have confidence in the Speaker's selection
of highly responsible members for such a sensitive
operation.
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2. Open. Budget.
Oversight Board with three capable men. The
.a. Have reconstituted the Intelligence
Intelligence Oversight Board.
a. Agreed not to object to disclosure of a
single budget figure in a desire to be more
forthcoming and open. Am persuaded that only
a single figure can be released within the
bounds of security, and am prepared to enforce
a strict policy on that regard within the
Executive Branch.
Chairman has had some experience in the intelligence
business and hence will lend a modicum of expertise.
Senator Gore and Governor Scranton are, of course,
citizens with distinguished records of public
service.
b.
Committee is playing in reviewing 'the intelligence
view of the increased role that the Senate Select
Have elected to disestablish the President's
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, largely in
process, and hopefully a House Select Committee
will 'play. In addition, such a Board must have
access to all of the most sensitive intelligence
information. There is always some risk inherent
in simply expanding the numbers of people exposed
to this kind of information.
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Suggested Points to Raise with Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
1. Legislative Charters -
Willing accept
Concerned lest be too detailed and permanent
Expect to have our proposed changes to Executive Order
ready by mid-June
Will discuss with Committee prior to issuing
Hope Charters and new
Executive Order can be a matching set
2. Security of Information
Imperative be able hold important data
Hope Select Committee can shoulder most of Senate
responsibility for oversight of sensitive materials.
3. Open Budget
"As stated by Admiral Turner in his testimony on 27 April,
I would not object if the Congress decided to release to the
public a single figure for the national foreign intelligence
program budget. I do this with the sense of confidence that
I would be able to hold the line within the Executive Department
to prevent any breakdown of that single figure into its component
parts. It is not within my purview to make a similar determination
of the ability to prevent an unraveling within the Legislative
Branch. It is the responsibility of Congress itself to come to
their own conclusion on this basic factor in deciding whether or
not to release the figure."
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 Admiral Stansfield Turner
Director
Central Intelligence Agency
Washington, D.C.
May 24,
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Boar .
A copy of this Report has been sent to the President
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/J 7_ /19Ull,
IN REPLY PLEASE
REFER TO R#7984
Dear Admiral Turner:
On behalf of the SSCI,_I`am sending for your infor-
mation a copy of our classified Report on the national
intelligence estimates process as reflected in the recent
pis.
report on the NIE B Team experiment in competitive analysis.
report
Report, prepared by the Subcommittee on Collection,
Production and Quality chaired by Senator Adlai Stevenson,
examines the facts of the case and analyzes both the pro-
cedures used in the experiment on competitive analysis
and the national intelligence estimates process. it also
makes findings and recommendations for improvement in the
national intelligence estimates process.
The Report has been reviewed and approved by the Sub-
committee on Collection, Production and Quality and the
full Committee. In addition, Admiral Stansfield Turner
has submitted at our request comments on the draft report.
His comments in large measure
into constructive ofdthelReport.
and many were incorporated
The Report also contains the additional views of Senator
Gary Hart. The preparation of the Report was undertaken with the full cooperation of all the agencies of the
national intelligence community andd of the recent President:'sILLEGIB
and Vice President.
With kind regards,
Encl .
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SUGGESTED POINTS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE
WITH THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
1. Legislative Charters.
a. Willing to look at question of need for modifications to
or additions to charters.
b. Want to work closely with. the Committee;
(1) to avoid a situation in which
the legislative charters become too detailed
and tie down the specifics of the intelligence
process in too permanent a manner.
(2) so that central purpose of charter
is not lost in unnecessary debate over executive
and legislative privilege.
c. Hope charters and new Executive Order can be a
matching set.
d. Expect to have our proposed changes to Executive Order
ready by mid-June.
(1) Will discuss with Committee prior to issuing.
2. Securit of Information.
a. Imperative be able to hold important data.
b. Hope Select Committee can shoulder most of Senate
responsibility for oversight of sensitive materials.
c. Taking steps to reduce proliferation of sensitive
material in Executive Branch and hope Committee will do same
in Congress.
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WIF
d. In furtherance of above, would like to see
joint committee on intelligence or select committee in the House
comparable to the Senate Select ,Committee.
e. Would also like to see repeal or modification of
Section 662 (Hughes/Ryan amendment)-of the For6gnAssistance
Acts to limit reports on covert action programs to four committees
of Congress maximum.
3. Open Buet._
a. Agreed not to object to disclosure of a single budget
figure in a desire to be more forthcoming and open. Am persuaded
that only a single figure can be released within the bounds of security.
Am prepared to enforce a strict policy,on that regard within the
Executive Branch.
b. It is now up to the Senate ~?.s to what you want to do.
Do not want to attempt to dictate to you because of the accompanying
responsibility also to maintain a strict adherence to a policy of only
one number.
4. Intelligence Oversight Board.
a. Have reconstituted the Intelligence Oversight Board with
three capable men. The Chairman has had some experience in the
intelligence business and. hence will lead a modicum of expertise.
Senator Gore and Governor Scranton are, of course, citizens with
distinguished records of public service.
b. Have elected to disestablish the President's Foreign
Intelligence Advisory Board, largely in view of the increased role
that the Senate Select Committee is playing in reviewing the
intelligence process. :I anticipate a continuing and useful dialogue
with the Committee and hope that this will, in large measure,
substitute for the Advisory Board. In addition, such a Board must
have access to all of the most sensitive intelligence information.
There is always some risk inherent in simply expanding the numbers
of people exposed to this kind of information.
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5. Electronic Surveillance Bill.
a. This Administration has submitted an Electronic
Surveillance Bill which should be effective in preventing abuse of
personal liberties of our citizens as a result of improper electronic
surveillance.
b, The Attorney General is developing a bill that will
similarly prevent abuses of physical surveillance.
c. The Attorney General is also developing legislation to
protect the rights of Americans overseas against all forms of
surveillance.
7. Positive Role that Oversight Committees Can Pla.
a. Dispelling notions created in the press regarding such
things as "quid pro quo" between U. S. and foreign intelligence agencies.
b. Dispelling erroneous allegations concerning CIA. involvement
c. Conducting investigations (such a ) without
risk of disclosure of intelligence sources and methods.
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d. Assistance in protecting intelligence agencies against
unintentional limitations that might be imposed in general statutes --
such as assistance members gave in handling recent amendments
to Securities and Exchange Act (S. 305).
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