JPRS ID: 9219 EAST EUROPE REPORT POLITICAL, SOCIOLOGICAL AND MILITARY AFFAIRS

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JPRS L/9219
25 July 198Q
~ East Euro e Re ort
p ~ ~
POIITICAI, SOCIOLOGICAL AND MILITARY AFFAIRS '
,
(FOUO 5/80)
FBlS FOREiGN BRUADCAST INFORMATION SERVlCE
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JPRS L/9219
25 July 1980 =
EAST EUROPE REPORT
POLITICAL, SOCIdLOGICAL AND ~ILITARY AFFAIRS _
(FOUO 5/80)
~ CONTENTS
GERMAN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC
Continuing Role of Christians Under Socialism Discussed -
(Albrecht Schoenherr Interview; STERN, 20 Apr 80) 1 ~
HUNGARY
Ex-Premier Andras Hegedus Interviewed in Milan
(Andras Hegedus Interview; CORRIERE DELLA SERA,
7 Jul 80) 4
POLAND
Venezuelan Paper Interviews Foreign Minister Wojtaszek
(PRELA, 7 Jun 80) 9
_ a_ jIII - EE - 63 FOUO]
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' GERMAN DEMOCRATIr REPUtSLir
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CONTINUING ROLE OF CHRISTIANS UNDER SOCIALISM DISCUSSED _
Hamburg STERN in German Vol 32 No 19, 30 Apr 80 pp 222, 224-225
[Interview by STERN corres~ondent Dieter Bub with Bishop Albrecht Schoenherr, -
chairman, Federation of GDR Protestant Churches: "'Despite Marx We Will ~Tot
Die': The Role ot Christians in the GDR")
[Text] [Question] Bishop Schoenherr: you have called up the Christians
' in the GDR to demonstrate more courage and to affirm their reli~ious faith.
Is this not a rather easy thing to do for a chur~:-aman who can move freely
in East and West?
[Answer] Somewhat. I must admit it. But, it is my job to help the
Christians find their way in a socialist society. We must 'oe prepared to
speak out, to say who we are.
, [Question] In the aftermath of Pastor Bruesewitz's suicide, the church
administration in the GDR was accused of making compromises, of kowtowing
to the government and the party, of having no backbane.
[Answer~ I think these accusations are not correct. But I did takP the
- criticism in connection with the Bruesewitz case seriously to the effect
that the church was pursuing secret policies the parishes could not under-- -
stand. In the meantime, we have opened up communications with the parishes
~ and have thrashed things out. I
[Question] Can you honestly expect a courageous avowal of the church by -
young people in the GDR, if they might as a consequence face discrimination _
in education, in job training and in their professional life?
- [Answer] We must expect all Christians, young or old, to affirm their faith.
As for discrimination, things are not as bad as they were 2, 3 or 5 years
- ago. In those days, Christian children would be ridiculed in school once in
a while. Today, such occurrences are rank exceptions. If they happen at -
_ all, they are frowned upon by the principals.
[Question) Two years ago, SED chief Honecker gave you the assurance that
Christian and non-Christian youths would receive equal treatment. Has he
kept this promise? ~ -
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[.~,:swer] The word given by the Chairman of the State Counc~l at that time
applied to all Christians rega.rdless of age so that one cannot use the
schao].s alone as a yardstick to judge whether the promises were kept or not. _
' We both agreed that it would not be all that simple to translate each and
every one of the arrangements into reality soon.
[Question) In what areas were the most difficulties encountered?
[Anstiaer] 4~erever ideology was prominently involved, as for instance in the
fie?_d of ~.dult education and in the schools. In these areas equal treatment
~ of chilc'.reri educate3 along Christian lines has not made too much headway.
[Question] You have mentioned a growing interest on the part of young people .
for the church. Does that i-~ply th~y are turning toward Christianity or away _
fram empty party slogans?
[Answer] The number of young people who concern themselves with the church
a and who take part in church music events and youth convocatians is on the -
rise. Young people need an outlet for their emotions and at the moment this
seems to many to be satisfied somewhat more in the church than in the meetings
of the state youth organization. They know that they can talk to us about
everything. In our midst the young people find a community they cannot find
elsewhere--not even within the family because quite nften both parents are
working.
[Question] Does this not raise the possibility of the church being vilified
by the state as a haven for opposition elements? -
[Answer] We must not let this impression arise. We are not taking the field
against socialism,
[Question] But the church should take sides.
[Answer] The church wants to support whatever is good for people. We
maintain hospitals, old people's homes and nursing homes. But, in addition
to these church-related tasks, we also have an obligation to support every ,
measure which serves peace and detente.
[Question] And this gives you the right to take a position on the Soviet
troops marching into Afghanistan, on the boycott of Che Olympic Games and
on NATO modernization plans.
- [Answer] Yes. We earnestly warned against NATO modernization because we
consider it a threat to peace. With regard to Afghanistan I have made only
general comments so far and will continue to do just that.
[QuestionJ What do you think the chances are for closer contacts between the
church in the FRG and the GDR?
- [Answer] The relations are very good; they do not need to be strengthened
at this time. ~
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[Ouestion] Relations between the church and the GDR leadership seem to have
improved--still, the church is expected to die a slow death...
[Answer] According to Marxist theory, religion is to wither away once certain
social conditions have changed. So far, we do not have the feeling that our
end is near. But I cannot prevent anyone from believing that we will wither
away. -
[Question] Church membership in the GDR has fallen drastically. Some
vicarages are vacant; day nurseries anc~ community nursing stations have had
to be closed. '
[Answer] There are vacancies in all Region~.l Churches because of a large
number of retirements recently and because there was a drop in the number
of theology students a few years ago. But that has changed. We now have a
sufficient number of theology students and expect the vacancies in the parishes
- to be filled within 4 or 5 years,In the case of the community nursing stati~ns
there just is not any young talent. We will be making an effort *_o remedy
that. And as for church membership: about half the population of the GDR ~
claims to be Christian; but the number of those actually taking part in church
life unfortunately is far smaller.
[Question] In the new school regulations mention is made of the "communist
education of youth"--in other woxds, there is no room for anyone who thinks
" differently. How will yuu defend yourself against this?
[Answer] We are not yet sure about what is meant by comiaunist education.
We will be talking to the State Secretary for Church Affairs in order to
obtain a clarification.
COPYRIGHT: 1980 Gruner & Jahr AG & Co.
9478
CSO: 2300
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HUNGARY
EX-PREMIER ANDRAS HEGEDUS INTERVIEWED IN MILAN
- Milan CORRIERE DELLA SERA in Italian 7 Jul 8~ p 3 -
[Interview with former Prime Minister of Hungary Andras Hegedus by Pietro
Sormani, of CORRIERE DELLA SERA, in Milan; date not given]
[Te~t] "Socialism in the East? That depends..."
"From an economic-sociologicaZ point of view, the socialist countries are
those that have achieved industrialization without private property as the
means of groduction. If, on the other hand, an ethical approach is adopted,
thP a;zswer is no." I have appreciated, and I continue to appreciat~, the
concepts of Eurocommunism."
Milan--Head of government, eminent sociologist, an alien in his country:
the political parable of Andras Hegedus symbolizes the drama of a people _
that was experienced during the br~.ef ~pan of a quarter century. But,
beyond the case of Hungary, if one carries it further, it expresses all
that is currently absurd and schizophrenic in the co~ntries of "true
socialism," where personal destinies are forced into very sensational changes
by changeable ideological demands or by powerful interests.
Before becoming a victim, himself, Hegedus was an authoritative interpreter
of these demands. A loyal Stalinist during the Rakosi era, at only 33
years of age he was appointed to the leadership of Hungarian power. How-
, ever, only 1 year later, overthrown by popular protest, he was obliged to
take refuge in the Soviet Union. The trauma changed him and induced him to
give up politics azid to devote himself to the study of sociology. The man
who returned to Budapest during the first stage of the Kadarian repression
was a completely dif�eren~t man from the one who had left--more learned and
certainly more human.
He thus began his profitable act3vity as a student, as a researcher at the
Institute o� Economics, then as vice president of the C~ntral Statistics
- Office, finally as director of sociology in the Acad~my of Science. The ~
_ name of Hegedus }~ecame identified with the "Budapest School," wrich repre-
sented the greate5t effart in behalf of a critical revie~a of Marxism that
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was made by any East European country. The invasion of Czechoslovakia -
brought another change to his life: his protest got him a professional
demotion and, in 1973, expulsion from the party.
Since then, Hegedus has been lxving under special surveiliance, privately
pursuing his studies, but without being able to make known his results.
In 8 years he was allowed to pub].ish only one article ar:u to hold one
conference. Only reeently, thrcugh one of the odd, typtcal contradic-
tions of Hungarian life, he reacquired the right to go abroad. In recEnt
days Hegedus participated in the conference ~n ltome on Bucohrin, organized ~
by the Gramsci Institute.
I met him in Milan, at the hcme of frien~s. Nothing in his appearance
makes one think of a brilliant statesman or an illustrious scholar. His
thin grey hair, small be2sd and hea-y build iit in better .
with his official status of retiree. He talks simply, in a calm voice.
In spite of his seemingly ingenuous look, one every once in a while glimps es
a flash of ~hrewdness. But his thinking is always clear, penetrating. He
answered ~y questions wi~hout hesitation.
[Question] Tre conference on Bucharin constitutes a new step forward ~n
the Italian Communist Party's analysis of Marxist thinking. Is there an
analogous pursuit 3.n East European countries?
jAnswer] An ideological ievaluation of Bucharin is impossible with us.
And that is too bad, because it results in an obstacle to the development -
of the Marxist theory. Bucharin advance3 the concept of economic reform,
but our leaders do nut want to acknowledge him. Of course a new Bucharism
is not acceptable today, under such different historic cir~umstances; but
, it is useful to sir.gle out its positive elements, for the contribution tha ~
they can make to the discusszon. Moreflver, there were many Trotskyites in
Rome, too.
, [Question] The "Budapest Scnce?," which in the past exerted a great deal
of influence and gained prestige, today is practically dissol~ed. How was
it pessibla for this to b.appen?
[Answer; The "Budape~t School" never aas a current of homogeneous thinking:
it was always characterized by differences of inethod and of substance.
There were two prin~ipa~ trends: one, an ethical--philosophical one; the
- other, sociological. The unfavorable circumstances that occurred in our
- country in 197;, also as a consequence of the events in Czechoslovakia, -
influenced many members, causing same among them to be inconatant. Some,
like Agnes Heller, went to Australia, where they are pursu~_ng their activi-
ties; others, instead, rem~uned in their country and became identified with
what we call "the second culture." Although it is no lor.ger possible to
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speak of a"school," there are many r~elatively young students who are
pursuing their studies. I recall from among others in the field of philo-
snphy Georgy Beneze and Janos Kiss; and, in the field of sociology, Zoltan
Zsille and Tamas Foldvari. And one must not neglect the cultural contribu-
tions of novelists like Konrad and Harazsti.
[Question] The teaching of the "Budapest School" was absorbed by some
extremist fringe~ in Italy and was used to justify their forms of violent
struggle.
[Answer] One must not generalize. The phenomenon that y~:u have described .
pPrtains only to the works of Heller; as far as I am concerned, I am
certain that I have never given cause for that type of problem. I am
opposed to any form of terrorisL and in this I adhe.re to Marxist tradition.
[Question] In~the past, you expressed sympathy for "Euroco~un~sm;" and yet
your positions are very different, and in some instances contrary, to those
supported by the PCI.
[Answer] I nave appreciated, and I contintie t4 apprec~ate, the E~irocommunist
concepts that propose to search for a new fo~W socialism that is valid "
for Western Europe. In East Europe there are two models of socialism: one,
a Soviet type; and the other, a Yugos~av one. But neither of the two is ~
applicable to the West. Western Europe must find different forms of social-
ism, forms that. correspond more to its circumstances and traditions. On ~
- the other hand, I do not believe that Eurocommunism can serve as a model
for East Europe. We must search for an alternative that, whil^ acknowledging
di�ferences, makes it possible to adapt reforms--even radical ones--without
destroy~Lng the existing system of power and without provoking a tragic con- -
frontation among the social forces.
[Question] You have maintained that in socialist countries it is possible
to create a pluralistic society without a multi-party political system. But _
has not 4istorical experience perhaps demonstrated that a non-institution-
alized p'luralism has no hope of suvival?
[Answer] I must explain: the fact that I believe a pluralism witho~ut
parties is possible does not mear: that I do not augur institutionai-t:yp~::
reforms. For example, the workers' cuuncils provided for in the Hungari.~~i: "
economic reform were an attempt at institutionalizing pluralism. Too b~~~3
that they remained on paper. Other forms of institutionalization could t~e
the separation of town councils from bureaucratic power, or the unrestric:`ed
nublication of books and magazines. In Hungary there are no fundamental
obstacles to this kind of decision that, in my opinion, would strengthen
. Kadarism, protecting it from the absolute power of the leaders. Of course,
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not all are in agreement and discussions are in progress on this n~atter
within the Hungarian o~position. But in general I belie~e that i,: may be
said that pluri-partyism is rejected in all of the socialist cuuntries. In -
1956, too, demands for the creation of various parties were made only whei~
_ the situation became uncontrollable. There was an analogous situation in
Czechoslovakia in 1968, when the "Prague Spring" did not succeed in
prop osing an overall concept of democratic society. This obviously does
~ not justify invasion.
[QuestionJ In recent times we have witnessed an involution of the reform
movement that appear~d in many socialist countries at the end of the 7~'s. �
Do you think that it can be reactivated?
[Answer] Yes, of course. The need for reforms has increased, not diminished. -
And also reforms continue to exist in a latent form and will be able to
emerge again unde~ new circinnstances. But if they are decreed from above,
triey will inevitably be unstable. Their success depends on the existence
of initiati~;~s and of a movement that comes from the base."
[Question] You had compared the results of the Hungarian economic reform to -
what happened ~o a donkey when the rope that restrained him broke. The don- ~
key was placed in an enclosure of equal size. Is this how it is today?
~ [Answer] Yes, except that the enclosed area is smaller.
[Question] Is an economic reform possible withouti political reform?
[AnswerJ Na, the 1968 Hungarian experience is very instructive in this _
regard_. In my opinion, it would be better to adopt reforms that are less
radi cal but more exter.sive. They must not come from above; the political
refo rms Inust be the legalization of demands from the base.
[Question] In the past you were optimistic about the possibility of the _
demo cratizati~on of socialist countries. Are you still ogtimistic? ~
jAnswer] It is the only hope for the socialism of the countries of the east
to become a true alternative to bourgeois democracy. Otherwise its cause
will be lost. But democratization cannot be attained in a few years. It
is a long process that will be characterized by delays, failures, and
accelerations. It will not be possible to radically change the situation
in a short tima.
[Question] In short, you believe that the countries of East Europe are -
truly socialist? Is socialism without democracy possible? _
[Answer] From an economic-sociological point of vi.ew, these countries are
socialist that have realized two criteria: tne existence of the process of
primary accunulation and of industrialization, and the absence of private -
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property from the means of product~;,ci. From this point of view, all of the
countries of East Europe are socialist. If, instead, we adopt an ethical
approach, the answer is no. But as for me the criteria that I have indi-
cated are essential. Moreover, even a capitalist system does not stop
being one because of the fact that it may be ruled by a dictatorial regime.
However, it is useless to debate what socialism is, or should be. The
important thing is to examine the specific forms it has taken and to try to
i_mprove them.
COPYRIGFiT: 1980 Editoriale del "Corriere della Sera" s.a.s.
8255
CSO: 3104
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POLAND
VENEZUELAN PAPER INTERVIE~dS FOREIGN MINISTER WOJTASZEK
PAO 80037 Caracas PRELA in Spanish to PRELA Havana 1355 GMT 7 Jun 80
[Text] Caracas, 7 Jun (PL)--Polish Forei~n Minister Emil Wojtaszek has
= stated that his coun.try supports the Latin American integration processes
the objective of which is to promote economic growth.
In an interview published today by the newspaper EL NACIONAL, the foreign
- minister stressed the great importance of the development of Poland'~ re.',.a- -
tions with the Latin American countries and he noted that they maintain -
similar positions on essential international prob lems.
Wojtaszek charged thac the policy of some U.S. sectors leads to an intensi-
fication of the arms race "which is the result of the decisions adopted by -
NATO in 1978 and 1979."
He referred to the problem of Afghanistan and indicated that his government
views with deep concern "the activities of the international reactionary and
impexialist forces." He added that in the attempts to prevent the revolu-
tionary changes in that country "lie the roots and the direct causes of the
tensions and instability in that Asian region."
CSO: 3010 END
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