LYMAN KIRKPATRICK INTERVIEWED

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP83-01022R000100060018-9
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: November 17, 2016
• Document Release Date: April 13, 2000
• Sequence Number: 18
• Publication Date: August 17, 1966
• Content Type: TRANS

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3333 CONNECTICUT AVENUE, N.W., WASHINGTON, D. C., WOODLEY 6-6300
FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGRAM Here's Barbara'
DATE August 17, 1966 10:30 A.M.
LYMAN KIRKPATRICK INTERVIEWED
Washington, D.C.
ANNOUNCER : "This morning on 'Here's Barbara', Lyman
Kirkpatrick, former Executive Director of the CIA, discusses
Russian spy operations. Next on Television 7.",
BARBARA COLEMAN: "Good morning. We're so happy you could
join us this morning, and I might say that this half four is going
to be a great departure from our usual format because of the nature
of my guest. And I think that this is going to be one of the most
important half hours that you've watched on television in a long
time. First of all, we're going to welcome later on in the program,
that very well known entertainer and singer, John Rait.
"But my first guest this. morning, because of the stature of
our guest we have eliminated a lot of our spots and we are going
to give you a great deal of time to listen to this man.
"His name is Lyman Kirkpatrick, and he`is former Executive
Director of the CIA. Now I know you've wondered when you read
recent news stories about the CIA, how does it operate? What is
a spy? Is everybody like James Bond? Well, we're going to
answer this. We're going to talk about the Russian spies and bow
they operate, and I think that you'll find this a highly enlighten-
ing half hour.
"Mr. Kirkpatrick, as I said before, is former Executive
'Director of CIA. He graduated from Princeton University, and then
worked as editor on U.S. News & World Report, and during World War
II was in the Office of Strategic Services, which is commonly known
as OSS. And he served overseas as Intelligence Briefing. Officer
on the staff of General Bradley's 12th. United States Army group.
Now Mr. Kirkpatrick is currently Professor of Political Science and
University Professor at Brown University in Providence, Rhode.
Island. And le's teaching courses in Communist cold war operations,
and American security policy. And he recently completed the first
.draft on a book, which.he has tentatively titled 'Intelligence in
a Free Scoiety.'? Mr. Kirkpatrick, I can't tell you how happy we
are to have you with us this morning."
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KIRKPATRICK: "Thank you Barbara, it's a pleasure to be
here."
COLEMAN: "Without further ado, I just want to get down to
some very pointed questions, because we - there are a lot of things
we all want to know about the CIA. First of all, there seems to be
a modern misconception about what an agent is for CIA. Is he really
like James Bond and the 'Man from Uncle.
KIRKPATRICK: "I think I've probably been asked this one
question more than any other since I left the Agency, and I must
say in all trueness that I didn't realize the lack of knowlege or
information there is about CIA and about intelligence.
"I've never known anybody like James Bond, and I've known a
lot of people in the profession over the years. I think probably
the best way to,,,describe the intelligence attitude towards'James
Bond is one of envy and jealousy. (laughter) Somebody who has as
many fast cars and beautiful women and all the other gadgetry which,
Ian Fleming gave him to use. The answer to your question of course,
is yes, there is - there are spies in the world, but I think that the
image of CIA has been badly tarnished by the belief that this is-all
that that organization does, or is interested in.
"The CIA basically is what it's name implies, the central
intelligence organization. It's the brain child of a great American
named William J. Donovan, 'Wild Bill' Donovan, who in World War I
won every combat decoration the United States Army had, including
the Congressional Medal of Honor, when be commanded the fighting
69th. Regiment of New York, and in World War II was called by
President Roosevelt to organize what was originally known as the
Office of the Coordinator of Information, an organization which. in
June of 1942 was split into the Office of War Information, which
handled news and information, and the OSS, which was the intelligence
and the operational arm.
"Now the - the most important contribution I think that Donovan
made to his country, despite his many other greatnesses, was that
very early in the War he started to think about the peace, and what
the country would require in the way of an intelligence organization
in peace time. And it was then that the central intelligence concept
was born. Now I always like to stress, Barbary, the - the fact that
Donovan was a student, as well as being a lawyer and a fighter and.
a man of adventure, but the important aspect was, that be realized,
having seen the Pearl Harbor episode, having seen the other intelligence
services, that a great nation like ours needed a central organization
that could speak for all of the intelligence services which, any
country would have; to the President, to the top policy makers,
and put together for them what they need to know from an intelligence
viewpoint, to assist them in, policy making.
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"So,. when one emphasizes some of the, shall we say, more ,
glamorous aspects of intelligence, it's to the detriment of what itb.
basic function is, which. is first to provide intelligence, the
intelligence part of the name, and secondly to be the central
organization, so that unlike Roosevelt at Pearl Harbor, where he
listened to four or five or even more voices telling him what they
thought were going to happen, our government today can listen to'
one voice speaking on behalf of everybody."
COLEMAN: "CIA does have members of their clandestine
operation all over the globe. Do you have any women working as
agents?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Yes, well, when you say working as agents, I..."
COLEMAN: "Th.ere I am, back in the James Bond..."
!4`i
KIRKPATRICK: "There you are back in the James Bond in the
first place, and secondly, I have resolved, and this I will stick
to, never to talk about operations or agents as such.. We can talk
about the philosophy of it, so - so let me answer the question by
saying I don't know. But let me then say, that there are many able
and dedicated women in the Central Intelligence Agency, and that the
organization tries to recruit women from colleges and. universities
and other fields.
"And, I'd simply note that President Johnson recognized this
last year, the quality of the women in the Agency, when be named
Penelope Thundberg (?), one of the Economists in CIA, to the Tariff
Commission."
COLEMAN: "Mr, Kirkpatrick, the CIA has been recorded to be
involved in the overthrow'of certain governments, for instance
Guatemala and Iran. Now, isn't this rath,er,an unamerican activity
to be either supporting or contributing to the downfall of govern-
ments outside the United States?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, the answer to the question is, that I
suppose the inteference in the internal affairs of other nations is
unamerican, yes, that's quite true. But that really is talking
about a past era. Because, with. our vast aid programs, with.th.e
c omplex and vast inter-relationship between nations today, this is
really no longer as important a factor. Now, as to the allegations,
as to what the CIA has done, I believe Allen Dulles, former great
Director of the Agency, said at one point that if the Agency was
responsible for'everything that people alteged'to it, it would have
probably a size about th.e equivalent of the whole United States
government."
COLEMAN: "But it has been involved in the overthrow of
governments."
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KIRKPATRICK: "Again, that is an operational question which.
I'm going to step aside by saying that what the CIA does is what it
is directed to do by higher authorities...
COLEMAN: "All right - all right, now..."
KIRKPATRICK: '"...by the policy makers."
COLEMAN: "Well, now who - who actually directs the CIA."
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, the answer to that I think has been
described in various books and other documents, and I think the
best way to describe it without being specific is the law says that
the Central Intelligence Agency will perform those services as
directed by the National Security Council. The National Security
Council being composed, as you know, of the Secretaries of State and
Defense, and the Chief of the Office of Emergency Planning, the Vice
President, and t`ti.e President being the Chairman. Well now, this -
this group has various committees and other staff working with. them
and they certainly can call on anybody in any part of the government
to assist them in their staff work, so, when you say that the Agency
is directed in its activities - in simplest terms, it's directed by the
White House, the Defense Department, and the State Department."
COLEMAN: "All right, now, Mr. Kirkpatrick, don't you think
that a lot of the criticism of the CIA is actually a round about
criticism of the policy makers, which cannot be perhaps criticized
so openly?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, I think this - this undoubtedly is true.
It is that - I feel that some of the problems of the CIA with. the
Congr ess are most unfortunate, from a point of view that it is
obviously. the perogative of the Congress to decide how they wish.
to supervise, or oversee, the work of the Central Intelligence Agency,
and the other intelligence organizations. And whether this is to be
done by a Joint Committee of Armed Services, Appropriations, and
Foreign Relations, is strictly for the Congress itself to decide. And
the unfortunate part about it, Barbara, in my opinion, is that the
controversy and particularly the degree of press comment on the
controversy, makes it seem as though. there is something wrong - that
somebody's doing something they shouldn't do, or that the Agency
isn't being properly supervised or overseen.
"Now, during my years in the organization I spent a great deal
of time on our Congressional relations, and I think the Agency is
being well overseen, and I think that this is something, again, if -
if the Congress wishes to expand the Committee, they should determine,
but preferably in the future, without a great deal of public debate.
COLEMAN: "Well, now, what's behind the Fulbrigh.t effort to
place three members of Foreign Relations Committee, on the Senate
Armed Services subcommittee, which is investigating the CIA?"
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KIRKPATRICK: "Well, in the first palce, that's a combined
subcommittee, it's both Armed Services and Appropriations, Mr.
Russell being the Chairman of the combined group. What is behind
it and what has been behind many bills introduced in the Congress
over the years - every session of Congress, I think, has seen one
or'two bills in the Senate, and a dozen or more in the House -
proposing a joint committee over CIS, is the feeling in Senate
Foreign Relations that the Agency's work, and the Agency's influence
in foreign affairs, and. United. States foreign relations, is such
that they ought to be cut in on what it's doing. And with. this view
I frankly sympathize. I think that's true.
"The other view in the Senate. is - is a reluctance to widen
the knowlege of what the Agency is doing. The point I think that
should be emphasized here, is that the established Committees already
know what it's doing, and it's up to them to decide as to whether
they want to bring in other members of the Congress. The Congress
should decide this, and - and should decide it either the way it is
now, or else reach. an understanding amongst itself, that it won't
be debated to the degree it has. Cause I think it upsets the country,
and I think it doesn't help the image of a very important organization.
as far as our government is concerned."
COLEMAN: "But isn't this essentially an argument behind the
scenes between Russell and Fulbrigh.t?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, I wouldn't want to get into personalities,
but it seems that to the observer who knows nothing more than what
he. ,reads in the paper or sees on the television, that this is - this
is what it boils down to."
COLEMAN: "Now, Mr. Kirkpatrick, what do you feel is behind'
the letter that the current Director of the CIA, Helms, Richard Helms,
released and wrote to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, I don't know anything about the letter,
Barbara, or why it was written. It is most unlike Dick Helms, with.
whom I worked for more than two decades..."
COLEMAN: "But it was signed by him. If a letter goes out with
your signature on it, don't you know about it?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, I would assume so, and particularly Dick,
who is very meticulous and very careful, and I think this was just an
error for which. he has duly appologized. It's sad that it should
start out his tenure as Director, which.I hope will be long and
successful, because be is the first career man to head th.e Agency.
This is what every career officer in the Agency has hoped for over
the years. It's had brillant directors: men like Bedel Smith and
Allen Dulles and John McCone - and all of them very able and all of them
doing a great deal for the organization. With. all due respect to
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them and. their accomplishments, what the people who have made the
Agency their career, and there are a great number of them, wanted
was to see their own running the Agency. And it's just an unfortunate
episode, and I'm sure it's the last of it's kind."
COLEMAN: "Well, what about the other unfortunate episode of
the Tofte affair in Georgetown?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, I don't know anything about that. I know
the participants, and the others - it's almost like a little bit of
comic opera. Again, it's the type of thing which.is seen on nation-
wide television, and whether mistakes were made as to who's right or
who's wrong, is something the Agency will have to work out. But,
this sort of thing doesn't help an image which I think is important."
COLEMAN: "Mr. Kirkpatrick, I'd like to turn our attention
now to the situation in Vietnam based on your years of experience.
Don't you think that it's time the United States should say, 'Look,
you move behind this parallel; we're going to drop our bombs and
we're not going to fool around any more."
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, we're moving into what probably is the
area that I've devoted more time and attention to in my nearly a
year now in the academic world than anything else. I hadn't been
on the campus at Brown more than a few hours when there was a knock
at my door and this young lady came in and asked if I would participate
in a teach. in on Vietnam. She said, ' We assume from your position
in the government that you would support the Administration's
position.' I said, 'That's a very correct assumption.' She said,
'Therefore, we'd like to have you at a teach in.' I said, 'No, I
won't be in anything called a teach in. If the students would like
to sponsor a forum, we'll have a forum.'.
"So we had a forum and I thought it was great. I was very much
in the minority, as far as..."
COLEMAN: "Yes, but what was your viewpoint?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, my..."
COLEMAN: "What is your viewpoint?"
KIRKPATRICK: "My,-.viewpoint is very specifically this: I think
we should tell the Communist world, not just the North. Vietnamese or
the Chinese, but the whole Socialist world, as they now like to call
themselves, that aggression stops at their boundaries, not.our
boundaries, or the boundaries of our friends -- and that our deter-
mination to make this certain can be seen from the fact that we're not
going to let Vietnam, or our friends go down the drain, because it's
going to take time or money. This is not to say that I don't believe
we should explore, as Governor Harriman is now exploring, every
possibility for peace in every straw in the wind. And it's not to
say that we shouldn't withdraw at a point when we think the guarantees
are there for at least a self-determination in South. Vietnam as to
their future disposition.
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"But I think the struggle there is a pretty fundamental one,
as far as our long range issue is concerned. And I do hope that the
Administration will spare no effort in explaining the issues of
this very complex war in a very complex country, to the people of
the United States so that they won't in turn become frustrated or
impatient. I don't think that either extreme is one which is feasible.
I don't think the extreme of destroying North. Vietnam with. - with a
capability which we have and which is really not a very great strain
on our capabilities to destroy North. Vietnam. And I don't think
that either we should destroy South. Vietnam trying to win it.
"So, it's a very delicate problem, as far as the policy makers
of the government, and I certainly don't envy them their problems
or their tasks."
COLEMAN: "Well, now, Mr. Kirkpatrick, don't you feel that
perhaps the cur'ent Administration is holding back on any definite
determination in Vietnam, because of the political situation at home?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, there are so. many factors, Barbary, that
go into any decision, whether it's the war in Vietnam, or whether
it's NATO and our position in regard to France. Occasionally, to go
back to intelligence -- occasionally the intelligence people would
become frustrated, because they'd say, 'Well, they aren't reading
our reports. The policy makers get our reports, but their decisions
and determinations don't seem to indicate that they've read them.
What these people overlook is the fact that into any major policy
decision made by the United States Government, there are a dozen or
more factors that must be given consideration, intelligence being one,
economics being another, military strength, being a third, relations
with our allies being a fourth, relations with. the Communist;; and
Socialist bloc being another. And then domestic considerations are a
very important one.
"We have, to use the old and timeworn, but very sacred slogan,
'a government of the people, by .the people, and for the people.' So,
the President can't act without domestic considerations being very
much in his mind. "
COLEMAN: "And.do you forsee a major confrontation with Red
China?"
KIRKPATRICK : "No."
COLEMAN: "A major war?"
KIRKPATRICK: "I don't think so. Some people feel that we may
have a jamor confrontation with. Red China. We don't want it and the
Chinese don't want it. I'm sure the Chinese don't want it. And,
furthermore, perhaps even more important, neither the North Vietnamese.
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Nove
nor the National Liberation Front, the Viet Cong, want it. Th.ose
people don't want China coming into this war."
COLEMAN: "Mr. Kirk (sic), we've been talking about more
serious business. I just wanted to mention -- which. I'm sure maybe
our viewers do not know, but I'm only bringing it up because of your
attitude and because of th.e.fact that it'll mean a great deal to some
people out there -- you had polio, the same type which. h.as put you
in this wheelchair at the moment, the same as the former President
Roosevelt had.
"And what's your attitude been, Kirk?"
KIRKPATRICK: "Well, it's, of course, a terrible shock to
anybody, whether it's polio, or whether you fall out of an airplane
and break your back, to suddenly realize that after having led a
vigorous life that you're henceforth. going to be confined to a wheel-
chair. And I'm sure that such. words as handicapped, or crippled, or
thing like that were initially a shock to my system. I was blessed by
the fact that I had excellent care and went to New York to the Institute
of Physical Medicine, Dr. Howard Rusks, where attitude is an important
aspect.
"Once I got used to the fact that I wasn't really terribly
different than I was before -- perhaps lazier getting around in a
wheelchair. I think it's a question of personal determination. And
there's nothing I can't do from cut the grass, or drive the car, to
travel around the world."
COLEMAN: "Lyman Kirkpatrick, my thanks to you for coming in
this morning. It's been a great treat for us.
"We've been talking to Mr. Lyman Kirkpatrick, former Executive
Director of the CIA."
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