DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00459R000100120001-4
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 62
• Document Creation Date: December 14, 2016
• Document Release Date: November 25, 2002
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: February 16, 1962
• Content Type: TRANS

DATE 16 February 1962
Tape #12
NRO & JCS REVIEWS COMPLETED Copy No.
THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS INFORMATION PERTAINING TO /
/ NRO /`.
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Tape: #12
Date: 16 February 1962
Time: 3:07 P. M.
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Gary, What I thought we would do this afternoon is talk about
the situation after your debriefings and interrogations were
over - talk in your own terms, telling us exactly what occurred
in connection with the trial, in other words, at what point did
the interrogations break off, when did they inform you that there
was going to be a trial, when did you meet your attorney, how
did they plan your defense, etc. and so on.
Powers: Well, the interrogations were ah very frequent all during May,
I think it was some time in the latter part of May I caught a
very bad cold and got my first day off, on Saturday. After
that I don't think we worked any more on Sundays. It continued
oh I'd say a couple of times a day about five or six days a week
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up until the after the 20th of April and then they started slowing
down. Sometimes once a day and occasionally ah they wouldn't
call me on Sunday. And it was approximately the - not April,
I mean June the latter part of June they informed me that the
interrogation was over.
Now Gary, ah did they formally tell you that the interrogation
was over? or just . . . .
Powers: Yes, they told me it was coming to completion. I don't rem-
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ember whether there was something to sign saying this termin-
ates the investigation part or what it was. They told me it was
over. And this was right around the last day of June.
Now, throughout this whole period your interrogators had
been the two men that you had named previously?
Powers: Yes, with occassionally these experts that came in on the air-
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plane, and some of the equipment.
Will you name the two men again. Remember the one that
you can't recall?
Powers: I still haven't thought of his name yet.
25X1A9A0 That's all right - it'll come to you.
Powers: The other was Vasiliev. The interpreter was Rodichev.
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Whom we have mentioned before ?
Powers: And there was one or two short sessions where this
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interpreter Finigin - Finagin I think they pronounced it,
took over - those were just short. This ah colonel who was
part of the ah he said he was from the prosecutor's office
that only was there to observe that everything was done
according to laws, or something like that he was present at
most every one of these. In fact, I think he was there in all
of them but there might have been one or two that he missed.
He did not participate?
He asked just maybe one or two questions but for the most
part he just stood there and listened.
In uniform?
In uniform all the time. Never saw him in civilian clothes.
Rodichev was always in civilian clothes. This Vasiliev most
of the time wore a uniform, but once or twice saw him in
civilian clothes. And the other man - the main interrogator
predominantly in cii vilian clothes but occassionally in uniform.
Now this means that when the interrogations began - all the
way thru until they somewhat formally notified you that the
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interrogations were over, you had a more or less chief
interrogator and this Vassiliev.
Powers: Yes.
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did not say/anything except maybe one or two questions ?
Powers: That's right.
25X1A9A I Plus the two interpreters?
Powers: Well, there was only one interpreter there at a time and
Rodichev was there most of - for most all of the interrogations.
25X1A9A0 And then during this whole period it was only broken occassion-
ally when they brought in experts from the outside?
Powers: Yes.
25X1A9+I And specifically among those experts you recall there was a
group you mentioned previously that came in to discuss the U-2?
Powers: Yes.
25X1A9A1I In a technical way?
Powers: Yes.
25X1A9A0 And the most important of these was a heavy set fat elderly
man perhaps sixty years of age?
Powers: I would say over 60.
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Powers: No.
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Powers: They all paid very much attention to what he said.
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Powers: No, or he didn't indicate that he did, but there was one of
the men who came with this particular group who did speak
English. He did the interpreting.
25X1A9 I You don't know his name ?
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Now, this group you're referring to when this elderly fat
man was in there. Were their questions strictly technical?
Powers: As well as I can remember they were technical.
Having to do with the aircraft itself?
Yes, and some of the equipment - I don't remember whether
it was all confined to flight instruments and hydraulic equip-
ment and stuff like that - but I think it was.
So that from your professional opinion this group of individuals
were professional technically equipped men?
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Now was there another group that came in - or individuals?
Powers: Ah I remember one man came in and asked me about if I knew
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any crypto and he only stayed a short time and left - this
was during one of the regular interrogations.
Any of these people give names?
Powers: If they did I certainly don't remember but I don't think they
did.
Certainly you weren't introduced?
Powers: No shaking hands, no anything like that.
Can you remember any others that may have come in?
I'm sure there were other groups of experts that came in,
but to recall who they were and what they asked and what
they were interested in and associate each one with ah partic-
ular equipment - I can't do it right now - maybe going over it,
Maybe it will come back some.
So what we have is one group in which you remember the old
fat man.
Yes.
And another individual coming in to talk to you about crypto
business, and that there may have been other experts who
came in from time to time?
Powers: Now the regular interrogators themselves went over all of
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this stuff with me anyway. They asked about the flying equip-
ment and stuff I had in my seat pack, about cameras and everything
else, but there were other people who would come in occasionally
for a technical debriefing and they seemed to be men who knew
something about the particular equipment they were talking
about or asking about.
Did these people bring in any exhibits with them - pictures -
pieces of equipment?
Let's see - no, I don't think so.
Did this man Vasiliev and the other man stay with you all the
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thissame group also came to Vladimir when I was there, and
the same group - and went over it again.
This was after the trial?
time these groups came in?
Powers: No this particular group of experts on the airplane - they also
Including the stout man?
The same man - the same stout man.
And the same subject was covered?
Powers: I think this was I think December 1960.
Powers: Yes they were interested in the airplane.
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How many in that group?
Powers: Let's see, one, two, - I would say about five.
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Now other than Vasiliev, the interpreters and the man that
you do not remember, among these individuals who came in
to see you, did any of them in any way threaten you - like
police - you know, third degree, tough stuff or anything like
that ?
Both times?
Now Rodichev was there, but he didn't do the interpreting -
one of the members of this group did.
Powers: No, they never never did that.
These were, you might say courteous - they asked questions
only?
Powers: Yes, there was no indication that I'd better answer or else or
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anything like that - it was they would ask a question and I'd
tell them I didn't know or give them some answer and they would
sometimes discuss it among themselves and sometimes ask
another question - but no threats - no.
How about any abrupt challenges like - you know this isn't so .
Powers: Well I heard that several times.
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That was under what circumstances ?
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znem got very
angry because - I don't know, maybe it was in translating
some thing, it doesn't translate right. But they would ask
me something well it was perfectly silly, and I'd say that's
silly. And the interpreter would translate it to the interrogator
and he got angry because as the interpreter explained to me,
it could only be translated in such a way as to indicate that
he it was foolish for asking such a thing. Probably so, but he
got angry about it.
Even though he got mad, he didntt jump up and thrash around
and pull out a gun or anything like that?
Powers: No, in fact he - I don't think any of them had guns on them.
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The guards I know did have guns, but in the office there -
maybe they did, but I never saw one.
All right, now we go up until the period about 20 June, you
said.
Uh huh this might be 15th - 20th. It started slacking off.
Then when do you detect the difference between the visa vis
your activities and the preparation of the trial? Could you
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set a date to that?
Powers: Oh yes. Definitely. Well o. k. I'll start with the 15th or the
20th there. The periods of the interrogation became some-
times shorter and longer diIaance in between. At first it was
every day, I'd say. The very minimum two long sessions a
day and sometimes three and even more than that - four.
Then after about the 15th or 20th of April they started slacking
off. They'd come back and ask questions about something
that they had already asked about. It seemed that they were
trying to clear up some points or something like that, and
sometimes they would skip a few days and never any more on
the weekends or on Sundays anyway. And then right at the
end of June they said that it was over and I asked them when
the trial would be and they said that they didn't know. And I
think it was - I think I can find out from some of the letters
that I wrote exactly when they told me that when I found out
the date of the trial but it was getting close to the first of
August and they told me I had the right to review the evidence
But I had to sit right there in the same office where I was
interrogated at a little table and read over this stuff - the
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English translations of this stuff - and either Vasiliev
the interpreter and the Colonel from the Prosecuting Office -
they were all there during the time I was looking this over.
Well, what I wanted to do was sit down and make some notes
which I did the first day but they said I couldn't take my notes
with me. I had to leave them with them so I tore them up and
they sort of laughed and said they would lock them up for me -
put them in an envelope and seal it and so forth. I said no, I
would just try to remember it and so from then on I didn't take
any notes but I tried to pick out some things that might help
this lawyer. I had already been introduced to Greniev who
was to be my court appointed lawyer.
When did you first hear that Greniev - I'm not sure I am
pronouncing it right - Greniev.
Powers: Well, it is the way I think it is pronounced. About the same
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Powers:
All this appears to be in the same building?
time they told me that the - when they set the trial date.
And he was brought into this interrogation room and intro-
duced to you?
Yes.
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Powers: Oh yes. This all took place . . . .
25X1A9A0 Tentatively we call it Lubianka but we are not too positive?
Powers: Well I am fairly sure that is what it is.
25X1A9A~ And all this took place in a single room within this building?
Powers: Yes. This particular part of it did.
25X1 A9A II And you are -
Powers: Now he - my lawyer did not go over the evidence with me.
He said he had another set that he had to go somewhere else
and read but I had to do this by myself. So I went over it and
tried to think of some things that might help and the lawyer had
told me to try to - I don't know whether he had told me anything
25X1A9A at this time or not - He said just get familiar with the evidence.
Did the evidence consist of the material that you had. given to
Vasiliev and the other interrogator?
Powers: I personally think that there was an interview or two that were
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That they had deleted from the material?
That was not in the book there. Now there may have been more
through there but I don't know. Because there were many of
these sessions and I couldn't remember when each one happened.
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And what all was said at each one and so forth. But when I
first got there, I think the first session I had was not in
there. I'm not sure.
This evidence, so-called, was presented to you in the form
of books or just loose papers?
Powers: No, it was in the form of books with typewritten sheets.
25X1A94 In English?
Powers: In English, yes. They had translated all of the interrogations
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into English.
But at no time now did your court appointed lawyer say this is
a weak point in the prosecution - this is . . . .
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He didn't say that . . . .
Well, he wasn't with me when I reviewed this. He supposedly
had a set of books of his own in Russian that he was studying
he said himself. I was away from him with the interrogators
sitting over at a little table by myself going through this stuff.
What were you supposed to do with this stuff?
I just had a right to review it was what they told me. They
were letting me review it.
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In other wo-rds, the statements that you had made to the
interrogators and had been translated and had been pre-
pared in book form. Then they gave you back the books
and said you can review this and see if there is anything
in here .
Yes.
Is there anything in here that you feel is not accurate or
right is that . . . .
Powers: Well they did that after each ah, well not directly after -
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each interrogation but it seems as soon as they could get
it transcribed and typed up. Most of the time this was in
Russian and they translated it to me. And most of the time
it was fairly accurate but occasionally I found mistakes.
Whether intentional or not I don't know.
Did you correct them? Did you point them out?
Yes. Like one that I remember particular - because they
tried to tell me that I had said this when I knew I hadn't -
that was - I don't know when it came up, but during one of
them they asked me if I thought the United States' troops
were illegally occuping Formosa and I told them no that I
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didn't even know that United States troops were even
occuping Formosa. And it came out that I said yes. So
I caught that as he was translating it and I told him that I
hadn't said that but they seemed to keep that in there but
they changed it.
Had they asked the question?
Yes, they asked that question. If - they did some odd
things at one of these interrogations. This was another
one that was not in the book. This was - I think that most
of them that included Rudenko were deleted because he was
not supposed to have any part in the investigation.
Why do you think?
Why?
Powers: Well, they read me some sort of law or someone informed
me that the prosecutor could not take part in the investigation
and he asked - well, he was head of several sessions - two
or three - but they got me in there this was in May again.
And they would read me what looked like press releases from
American sources and they would read say half a statement
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and they would ask me what I thought of this, and I knew
it was not a complete statement and it gave the wrong idea
and I would ask them to read the rest of it and they wouldn't,
and they wanted to know what my impression of what this
Senator said - what did I think about Eisenhower saying that
he had, ah give orders for this flight or had approved it, or
I don't know exactly how it was. But they would read some
of these statements and you could see that they stopped in
the middle of the sentence and left off something.
Do you think this was done to antagonize you or to confuse
you ?
Powers: I don't know. I was thinking that ah they were trying to give
me the impression that there was a bunch of bad people over
here in the United States. That they make statements like
this. And of course I could tell by the way the thing was read
that there was more to this and you can - it was very easy
to - well something - it wasn't a statement similar to this,
but I could compare it with this. You could say to someone
that I will kill you if you don't do something. But if you
leave off the if you don't do something it changes the meaning
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completely and that was the impression I got of most of the
things they presented me with at that time - but this was
not in the volumes either.
This was not?
In the evidence or at least I can't recall it being in there.
Well they gave you these big volumes in which they told you
to read and make corrections as you saw fit? Is that it?
Powers: No, no, no, I was to make no corrections. I was just to
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read them.
Did they explain what g ood this would do you to read them?
They only said that I had the right to do this -
Had the right to do this -
Powers: According to Soviet laws the prisoner had the right to
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review the evidence against him.
And then between the time that they presented these volumes
to you and the time that you got to work with your attorney,
there is a period of time in here in which all they were doing
was showing you the evidence?
Powers: Yes. And during this same period of time this Mr. Grenev
was supposed to be somewhere doing the same thing studying
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the evidence so that he could present his - our - figure
out how he wanted to handle his case.
Now between the time at the end of the interrogation and
the time that Grenev actually started with you, he didn't
appear every day or every hour - he wasn't with you all the
time at all.
Powers: No, I don't think I saw him at all during this time that I
was reviewing the evidence and I couldn't take these books
out of this office. I had to do everything there. I didn't
take any notes, but I tried to see if everything was as it
was - as I said it - and it seemed to be accurate that way
or as fairly accurate as well as I could remember anyway.
There was also evidence in there that I had never seen,
such as statements by this Captain of the rocket site that
they were talking about. Statements by the people who
apprehended me as they said - statements by experts who
examined the needle - the poisen pin - the guns - the det-
onator - stuff like that. Also two volumes, I think it was,
of photographs of the wreckage of my equipment and I think
some of myself in the flying suit.
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And these volumes contained only a part of what you had
told Vasiliev and the other interrogator - would contain
statements of other people who were witness to the act or
who were technical experts and who determined whether or
not there was poison involved on the pin and so forth and
so on?
Yes.
And they expected you to read this ?
They expected me to read that - go over it all. I don't
know what they expected me to do with it because it would
be impossible to remember it without taking notes and I
wasn't going to take something that I thought might help me
in an American sense because I don't know what their court
was like or anything, but an American court or an American
lawyer could have had a good time there. But I went over
this. I had a few days. I don't know how much. I went
through it - tried to read everything and understand everything
but it was just too much in this short length of time. After
I had finished thernmy lawyer came out and we sat down and
had a session.
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Powers: Well, that is going to be hard to do because I don't remember
just when it was in this latter part of July that they told me
that it would be the 17th of September. It was less than a
25X1A9A month.
You were notified then in the later part of July that . . . .
Powers: I'm positive - almost positive anyway that it was less than
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a month before the date of the trial. When I was told -
Which was then set for . . . .
Powers: 17th of August.
17th of August. Now somewhere in here your lawyer again
appears on the scene.
Powers: Let's see. They told me the date the trial was set. They
said I would be appointed a lawyer and they brought him in
and I met him in this early period when they first informed
me the date of the trial. Then they told me I had a right to
review the evidence. My lawyer told me that he would be
doing the same in another room. And if I think he said if I
found any discrepancies or anything but he didn't tell me
what might help. That I could . . .
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He didn't say tell the guard to go get me and I'll come in
and help you.
Powers: Oh, no. No, nothing like that. If I had any questions, I
was to remember what the question was and bring it up
with him the next time I saw him and . . . .
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So, he doesn't turn up for a great many days ?
Powers: Several days. Something wrong with your tape there.
25X1A9A 0 I got it. We had a break in the tape on the #2 machine at
about 3:30. The break is repaired and we are going to
continue the discussion as previously. It is now 18 minutes
of four.
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Now as I understand, Gary, a period of time elapses in
which all you are told to do is that there is going to be a
trial - here is the evidence and you can read it.
Powers: Uh, huh.
25X1A9A And during this period of time up until Grenev again appears
on the scene you have no support, no assistance, and no
advice whatsoever as to what to do?
Powers: Uh, huh.
25X1A9A II Just told to read the evidence - nor could you make notes ?
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Powers: Well, I could have made notes. But they would have kept
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my notes. I couldn't'take them to the cell with me. So I
thought there was no need of that. As well as I can remember
during the time I was reviewing these volumes, I didn't see
Grenev. After it was all over he came to the prison and this
was in - no, wait, I think maybe I am getting confused here -
I don't know whether I saw him when they first told me - I
mean the date of the trial - or not but I know we only had a
very few sessions together before the trial. And I saw him
before I had the opportunity to review these volumes. I don't
recall seeing him during the time that I was reviewing the
volumes. After I had reviewed them he came out to the
prison and this was at a different place and I met him two or
three times there.
Can we put a time and date on the sequence of this ?
This was in August - the early part of August - probably
the first week in August.
I see. Well now, you meet him first at the end of the
interrogation and there is a gap of time in which he does
not appear?
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Powers: No, that's wrong. At the end of the interrogation, no.
I didn't meet him. They just told me that at some future
date there would be a trial. They didn't know they would
let me know in time to review the case and talk to a lawyer
and so forth. And then sometime in the latter part of July
they told me - now this is as well as I can remember - I
think I can get more exact because I believe I wrote a letter -
I don't know whether I told them when I was informed that there
would be a trial but I told them when the trial would be -
definitely - but from the date that letter was posted I can
probably find out about the time that they informed me. And
I think I wrote a letter both to my wife and to my parents. I
think it was several days after that Grenev appeared on the scene
and I met him in the office of the interrogators. He talked
to me for just a short time in the presence of these people and
told me that I could review the case and he would be doing the
same and that we would have another meeting sometime later
and wanted to know if I had any questions and so forth but we
were right there with the investigators and I didn't much want
to talk to him at the time. And it seems to me that as I was
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reviewing the case he was supposed to be in another room
there in the same building somewhere reviewing another set
of the books.
Was Grenev courteous and polite?
Powers: Yes. He was courteous and polite and also the interpreter
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he brought with him. He had his own. Not on this, the first
time I met him, but later.
Later. Now at what point do you begin working with him on
the preparation for the trial. Can you set a time and date to
that ?
Powers: Not in exact date but in the early part of August.
And at this time you knew the triial was scheduled for August 17?
August 17, yes.
So in the early part of August you have some sessions with
Grenev?
Will you tell me about those ? How long were they? How
did he act?
Powers: Well apparently it took him a little longer to review those
books than it did me because it was - I had finished and I
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knew there was no need for me to sit there and go through
these things and not take any notes and I didn't expect to
get very much out of it and I figured it wouldn't do much
good anyway. He was reviewing the case at the same time
but it seems that it was several days as well as I can rem-
ember now - after I had finished that he came again and this
was in - I'd say - first week of August - around the first of
August. I can't be exact on this.
It'll come back.
Uh huh. And this time he brought his own interpreter with
him. He spoke a few words of English but not very much
and the interpreter he brought - they told me his name but
I have forgotten it; I'm sure it will appear in the papers at
the trial. He was a professor of English at the University
there in Moscow.
He spoke good English?
Powers: Very British English, but good English. I was never - well,
I knew he was one of them and I figured anything I told him
he would tell them if it was something that hadn't appeared in
the case and so I was not bringing anything else up except
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what had been in the evidence there.
This applies to Grenev?
Yes. He asked some - he wanted family background. He
seemed pleased that my father was not a rich man that he
was a shoe repairman. He said that would help. He - let's
see - he only had a small list of questions after our three or
four meetings there that he intended to ask me at the trial
and it seemed that his point was to bring out the fact that I
was - I was hired for a job and the responsible people were
the higher Government officials who hired me. He wanted to -
he seemed to want to bring out the fact that I came from a
poor family - not a real wealthy family. He wanted to - in
fact he suggested this - that I show that the flights were
strenuous. I don't know - maybe to incite sympathy or some-
thing. That you were very tired after a flight and it was very
much strain of flying and so forth and I went through some
spiel there I remember. He also asked me and looking very
closely at me when he asked "could I ask you this question?"
"Is everything you have said during the investigation the
truth?" and he was watching me very closely there and I
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told him that everything that I said with the exceptions of
any opinions or guesses on my part were the truth and he
said "will you say this at the trial", and I said yes. I
couldn't have just - knowing myself - I couldn't have just
said yes to everything - if I had answered that question yes,
I think I would have shown that it was a lie. But by adding
these other words it seemed to calm down the heart beat or
something - I could get through this and he didn't have to
ask that question and I noticed he marked it out because the
prosecutor asked it - but I am very glad he asked that because
if it had come as a surprise in court there it might have . . .
Upset you?
Powers: Well, I don't know how I would have reacted just then but
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I was - I knew it would come sometime during the trial so I
was fairly well prepared for it. He also, I think, asked me
if I had made more than one flight over the Soviet Union.
That was as far as I was concerned was none of his business
but I told him no, I had made only one flight. That seemed
that it should have belonged to the other side of the court room.
He was sympathetic during this period when you were together
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with him?
Powers: Yes, he was sympathetic. I was nervous and-worried about
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all of this that was going to happen and he kept trying to tell
me not to worry. He said that this sentence could be any-
where from seven years to fifteen years, or death. But he
didn't think that it would be death.
But he did introduce the subject?
Yes.
Was he optimistic?
Powers: Well, he tried to appear to be optimistic, it seemed like.
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He was trying to - he seemed like he was trying to cheer me
up and make me feel optimistic about the whole thing.
Gary, how many sessions did you have with Grenev between
the time you first met him and the time that you went into the
court room for the trial?
Powers: There wasn't a great number of sessions. I wish I could
remember exactly how many. But I only saw him, I'd say,
five times or less. One time during this he disappeared for
about a week - came back and said that he had been on another
case out near Sverdlovsk in that area and he said that it was
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some kind of a case involving rape or something and he had
got the man a lesser sentence than he could have gotten. He
also during this time explained to me some of the processes
of the Soviet law. He suggested that I - (the machine #2 broke
down at this point)
The second machine again has had trouble and we are going to
continue on the first machine only. The machine broke down
at approximately 3:55 and we decided to abandon it and start
up again at 3:57 on the first machine. Now, Gary, you men-
tioned that your meetings with your attorney were five times
or less between the time you met him and the time you went
into the court for the trial?
Powers: That's what I think. I can't be positive.
the truth in the evidence - and he had a list of questions - I
How long were these sessions with the attorney, Grenev?
One or two sessions were couple or three hours long. This
was when he was putting up a list of questions that he wanted
me to answer that he was going to ask me and so that --zny
answer would reflect my family background, how strenuous
the flights were that I was going on; whether I was - had given
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don't remember how long but it wasn't exceptionally long.
And with the exception of the questions that the prosecutor asked
concerning the same things, he followed his list. And there
has been a transcript of the trial so you have that list of
questions there. I don't know how many but it didn't seem
like many to me. It didn't take him too long. He knew what
he was wanting to do, and he apparently knew that this was
all he could do and he seemed to prepare - he didn't seem to
need as much time as he took to prepare the case that he
prepared.
You say some of the sessions were two or three hours
long, how long or short were the other sessions?
Powers: They were, say an hour. It seemed like that he just came
out a couple to - more or less - se how I felt - to see if I
could think of anything else that might help him in his project -
to tell me to cheer up - that everything would be alright. I
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really am very hazy about this time in there.
I can understand why.
Powers: But I can't understand why myself. I should remember this
very vividly.
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Perhaps it is because the appearance in the court blotted
out all this.
Powers: Well, that was a very nervous time there. But that might
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have done it.
Did this attorney Grenev do anything that seemed illegal to
you or did he threaten you or did he in any way hint or
suggest anything unusual or odd?
Powers: Well, it was his suggestion that my last statement in the
court be as it was, but he seemed to want to make it appear
that it- was my idea to do this but he made the suggestions
and I was writing some things down - but - put it in my words,
but there was no threats. There was a couple of times he
seemed overly curious about some of the points that the
investigators were curious about - also for I had answered no
to something in the - during the investigation - he seemed to
want to know whether that was really the truth or not. I had
the impression that anything that I told him I might as well tell
to the investigators. That was my impression.
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In other words, you got the impression that he was -
Powers: He was a court appointed lawyer to defend me, but he had to
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defend me the way these people wanted him to defend me.
At any time did he tell you that "Look this is completely
set up and it is all over and done with ? "
Powers: No, but this is the surprising thing. I asked him how long
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did he think the trial would last. I think this was maybe
during the trial - the first day - and he told me within a
half hour the time it would end.
He predicted very accurately exactly to the hour?
Yes, it seemed to me that he knew how long this would last.
Now whether he had already known the questions that the
prosecutor was going to ask and how long the answers would
take and so forth, I don't know but it seemed odd to me that
he knew. Later on I asked him about this again and he didn't
hit it so accurately the next time but -
Now, during this period when the interrogation ends and before
you go to court, you are staying in the same cell in the same
place ?
Same cell, same place.
And during this period of time was there any harrassment of
you? Was there anything unusual that happened to you? Or
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was it roughly the same?
Powers: I would say roughly the same with the exception that I got
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longer walks during this time. The food was the same. The
cell was the same, except they would let me stay outside
or up on the roof of this walled in courtyard for a longer
period of time.
Why do you think they did that?
Powers: I don't know. My walking - or my exercise period, I think
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they called it - my waiki--ig period was very irregular during
the investigation and well I enjoyed getting out. I guess
they knew that. Just getting out in the fresh air - and I
suppose it was just maybe try to please me a little bit, I
don't know. I think they seemed worried for awhile that
I might say something differently in court than I had said at
the investigation.
Did they talk to you about that point?
Powers: I am sure it was mentioned but I don't remember just when
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or how it was mentioned.
Did they threaten you if you did?
Powers: No, they didn't threaten me. I don't know who it was either.
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It might have been my lawyer saying that - well they kept
telling me that things go much easier when you tell the
truth and then tell all you know and all this, that the courts -
it's in our laws and they showed me a place if the man is
truthful and honest during the investigation that this is an
attenuating circumstance that is taken into consideration by
the court. Oh they told me this all the time. My lawyer and
I also talked about how conditions were in prisons and he
didn't tell me anything about the prisons but he did tell me
about the work camps that they have. These were during
the times that he was preparing. He had very little to do
it seems like.
By and large your treatment from the period of the interrogation
and up until the time you went into court remained about the
same ? The prison meals and the area of confinement, with
the exception that you perhaps got a little longer period to
stay out in the air and walk?
Powers: Yes, I would say there was no difference except for the
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walking.
Alright now, Gary, lets take up to the point just preceding
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the trial. Tell me what occurred, what instructions were
given, any observations you care to make at that?
Powers: Well I don't reme b th
m
'
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er e exact date but it
s either on the
16th or 15th - I think maybe on the 15th they brought in a
suit'of clothes and I tried that on. They didn't fit. They
took those away and brought back another one which I wore
here at the trial. I don't remember the last time I saw my
lawyer before the trial. Maybe even the day before for a
very short time about a day or two before anyway - but just
a short visit. No questions about anything in particular, just
how I was feeling, cheer up everything would be alright - or
a pep talk.
Just prior to the trial did you notice any change in the guards ?
Were there more guards or anything like that? Did the routine
seem the same?
Powers: No, there in the prison the routine seemed the same but as
they were taking me to and from the trial they had plenty of
guards. And even during the trial during the recesses or the
lunch hour or something they let me walk outside this building
and what apparently was a parking lot or something. But they
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had five or six guards around at every place that had an
opening in it. And one man walked with me back and forth.
They seemed to be exceptionally nice to me during this -
during the trial there at that place. Asked me what I
wanted to eat - if I wanted any fresh fruit. They bought
some watermelons as I remember brought it in. There was
only one thing I wanted, and I think it was the only thing I
ever asked them for and it was a banana. And they couldn't
get it they said. But they got the meals they fed me during
the trial at some restaurant and they were the best meals I
had there.
But you were, nevertheless, transported from your cell
over to where the trial was held and then brought back to
your cell at night ?
Yes.
You weren't given a different location or anything?
No, same cell all the time. The doctor accompanied me in
the car - she was in the car. They took one of these large
limousine type cars that gets several people in with the little
folding seats that come down. There was a guard on each
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side and two sitting on this little folding seat in front and
I was on the back seat.
Was it with a doctor?
The doctor was in the front seat. And there was another -
well wait a minute - I don't know whether the doctor was in
the front seat or not. But she - there was another car that
came with more guards. A smaller car maybe she was in
that. But she was there and you probably have pictures of
her. You got pictures of the people sitting along the wall..
But all this was correct and courteous they weren't - you
weren't maniacaled.or anything like that?
Powers: No. Never a pair of handcuffs. I only saw one pair when
they started to take me out of the building at Sverdlodsk to
the airport. And they didn't put them on me than. I don't
know why - I was glad they didn't I don't know I looked so
strange and It really made me feel bad to think - I don't
know I guess it would make anyone feel bad to go handcuffed
anywhere. But I was glad that they didn't do that. There
would have been no possible way of getting out of that car
because I thought about that. But they seemed nice just nice.
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Alright. Now we go up to the actual period of the trial and
there is a greatt deal of public record on this and a great
many photographs and of course we will go over the photo-
graphs with you for possible identification the people that
you can. Do you care to make any observations about the
trial itself?
Powers: Well the only observation that I can make is that it just
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seemed rehearsed. But that was what I thought.
You got the impression that the main figures in the trial
had gone through a routine then?
Powers: I got the impression that they all knew what was going to
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happen when it was going to happen and all that. My impression
of the indictment was that it was an indictment against the
United States but trying me. I think it only referred to me
just toward the end. But there was a lot about the United
States foreign policy and the aggressive actions of the United
States and all this. It was just my impression was that this
is a big propaganda campaign.
Do you recall at any time during your interrogations at the
trial, did you on the spur of the moment change any of your
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statments ?
Powers: You mean from whatts given in the . . . .
Powers: No. If I did I had not planned to. I planned to give the same
answers all the time.
And the questions asked by the prosecution were right in line
with what . . . .
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In the pre-preparation.
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Powers: They had been asked before.
They had been asked before.
He knew what the answers should be when I answered.
So this led to the impression by yourself that this was care-
fully rehearsed?
Powers: Well not particularly that. What I mean was those questions
had been asked during the investigation. They knew the
answer that I had given to every question that was asked during
this trial. Either my lawyer or the other one - the other
prosecutor had this. The one that the prosecutor asked that
my lawyer said he was going to was the one about my evidence
being the truth. But the prosecutor asked it and my lawyer
didn't. My lawyer when I mentioned to him early - one of the
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first sessions we had at the trial was on my birthday he said
that's a good point. I'll bring it up. But I don't remember that
he ever brought it up. And I was just wondering if he was
told not to or something. The way I think it it was moreor less
rehearsed was that they probably knew my - the answers that
I had given to these questions They were not going to ask any
not
questions that had/been asked before and as I had not given an
answer to so that it wouldn't embarrass them or surprise
them in any way. And I think they felt that I would answer
the same way as I had answered during the investigation
because somewhere someone had said that it was the best
thing to do.
Your advice then was to, by your attorney, was to stick to
4
the story you have alreadytold.' then words.
Powers: It was - I think it was my attorney that mentioned something
about this. But I don't remember how it was mentioned or
anything else but to be co-operative. To answer the questions
and to not change the evidence or anything during the trial.
I don't remember him saying - well someone I don't remember
who it was indicated that things could go very bad - I mean the
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verdict could be very bad if this was not done. As well as
I can remember this came up from my lawyer.
Another words, your lawyer's advice was stick straight to
Powers: They didn't want me to bring up something that they had not
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heard about. Or if I had answered say one answer to a
question say I'd even answer a lie, I don't believe they would
want me to tell the truth on it, I don't know. That's the
impression I got.
And your lawyer had forced that by telling you to stick to
the record ?
Powers: ]He me to - that it would be best to do this. And he was
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probably right I don't know but well their whole system is
fowled up as far as I'm concerned. The defense lawyer can't
do anything. He has got to go along with the prosecutor. The
only - he can't get out and say that - well if he brings in some
kind of evidence that the man on trial did not tell the investigators
then it would probably go bad for this man on trial and the
lawyer himself.
Was there any unusual or peculiar incidents that occurred
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during the trial that you care to comment on?
Powers: There was one peculiar incident that stands out but this was
after the trial was over while we were waiting for the verdict.
Now this I don't know what happened. This man I think he was
a Lt. Col. from the prison there. I hadn't seen him very much
but he was there every day of the trial and stuck around me
in the room where they kept me when I wasn't in what they
called the doct. He walked back and forth with me when I
walked when the guards were around. And there were some
benches over to the side of this place and sat down and he
sat down beside me, and he brought me a magazine during
one of these periods - a Russian magazine in English - but
this 'FA New Time's I think it was called. And I was taking a
walk while the judges were considering the verdict. And he
came out and asked me what I thought the verdict was going
to be. Well I was feeling better because this was over - I
mean I didn't know what the verdict would be but this other
part was over. And I was feeling a little better. And I was
feeling a little more optimistic than I was before . I don't
know why. But I was. Maybe because something I said
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one of the judges smiled. But he asked me what I thought
the verdict would be. And I told him well I don't think it
will be the death sentence. And since the prosecutor only
asked for fifteen years, I think it might be a little less than
that. So I would say about twelve years. He sat there just
a minute or two and then left. And went back inside and it
seemed to me that he went to tell someone this. That was
the way I was impressed, I had no idea what he did. But I
wondered since then if maybe they didn't do that to make the
sentence less than I was expecting. And I was very mad with
myself that I didn't say seven years. But this probably had
been my own imagination. I don't know. But it seemed that
he was waiting on this answer and got up and went to talk to
someone about it. And it wasn't too long after that that the
verdict came in. Ten years. But, well I don't know whether
there is anything to this but that was the impression that I
had at the time and it has stuck with me since.
Now after the verdict, and you went from the courtroom,
Where did you go?
Powers: To the same room that they kept me in during the breaks of
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the trial.
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Were you in a different room than yo
ur regular room. Oh
I see.
Powers: Oh you mean there at the - for the tr
ial.
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Yea, after they gave you the verdict
then were you taken
back to your cell?
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Powers: No, I went downstairs to the room where I spent all my time
25X1A9A
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while the court was recessed and where I ate and so forth
while the trial was going on. Stayed therefor awhile - they
had told me sometime previous to this that I would be able
to see my relatives on this day after the trial.
You knew they were there of course?
Yes I saw them in the back on the first day. Oh thirty minutes
or an hour after that they brought me back up to upstairs to
another room that I had to walk thru each time I came into
the courtroom. And my relatives were there.
That was the first meeting you had with them?
Yes. There was a bunch of photographers and a lot of people
around during this meeting. Table with white tablecloth with
tea and I think sandwiches of some kind - a lot of grapes -
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big picture of coral marks on the wall - three or four guards
in I don't know but there were a lot of people in there all
during this time that I was talking to them. [ had spent an
hour with them and then went back to the same cell. And I
guess that's all that happened right there.
Then from that point where did you go?
Oh I stayed in that cell until I was transfered to Vladimir
But did this attorney Hallitian or Hallihan from SanFrancisco
make himself . . . .
No this was later.
He comes in later now huh?
Powers: Lets see. This was on what, Friday I believe. Lets see.
Yeah on Friday. I don't remember when it was that they
told me I could have another meeting with my relatives.
Maybe it was on Saturday. I don't remember. But I
requested to see them separately - my parents and sister
and then my wife and her mother. And they took me to
another building. I think they said it was the Supreme Court
or a court of some kind there in Moscow. And first brought
in my mother, father, and sister.
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You were taken alone then, just with guards.
Just with guards. Two cars still. At least I think it was
two cars. It's unimportant I suppose. But walked into there
this building - there were people working there you could see
them running around like a normal day - took me over to an
office on the side. I came in the back door and it was on the
left side of the building. I got there before my mother, father
and sister did but a short while later they came in. I believe
it was before they came that they told me there was an
American there that had permission to see me. And I asked
them if he was a newspaper reporter. And he said no he is
some kind of a lawyer. And said well I don't know. My
parents came in about that time. I spent one hour with them,
they left and then my wife and her mother came in. Well
during this time there was an int er there and another
man that I had never seen before sitting behind the desk.
I think he - I don't know whether he was there all the time
or not, but the interrupter was right there listening all the
time. Everything that was said. My parents left and very
shortly after that my wife and her mother came in and then
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her mother went out and left us alone for about the last
thirty minutes if you can call it alone with an intw:U:er
and someone else I think there. Then after an hour she
left and they asked me if I wanted to see this man. And
I asked them again if this was a reporter - or what was he -
who was he. They said they didn't know, He was an American
who had permission to see me. And I said fine. Well I
didn't say fine I don't think, I just said I'll see him. Because
I didn't know who he was and lawyer, that sounded like it
might be someone I would like to talk to. And he came in and
shook hands with me - very gruff talking fellow seemed like
with a nervous twitch somewhere. He said you probably
know me and mentioned his name and I said no, I'm sorry I
don't. And he said well I was presidential candidate such and
such a party and showed me a newspaper clipping from 1952
I think it was. And he was telling me that I'd gotten off very
light that it could have been much more - that this was not
too bad - that he had been in prison himself and that you could
take it - and he also said now this is something. He said now
if these people want to talk to you he said Hell your a man your
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a smart man you can listen to any propaganda they might
give you and make up your own mind aid.-it. He said they
bring up some good points - something you might like to
think about. It's something along this line he was saying.
So I knew which side of the center he was on. But I feel
well I don't even remember his name now.
Hallinan.
Powers: But it seems like- what is it progressive party or something.
25X1A9A
Presidential candidate I believe in 1952. He did all the
talking and I just said yes or no or listened and he stayed only
a few minutes and left.
Just a few minutes. Now did you see him again?
Powers: No. That's the only other American except my relatives that
25X1A9A
I ever saw.
Now after that what occurs ?
I went back to the prison - the same cell - same place. And
lets see, this was on Monday. Well I thought that was the last
meeting - the last time I would see any of my parents or my
relatives. During a walk about 1 o'clock on Wednesday, this
is the 24th of August, Rodochev and this interrupter that I
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I
still can't remember his name, came in and - to the court-
yard where I was walking. This was up on top of the
building.
Now this is Rodochev?
Rodochev. And asked me if I would like to see my wife again.
And I said of course I would. Can I do it? And they said yes
we can arrange for you to see her this afternoon. And we are
going to let you be alone together for three hours. And he
said it will give you an opportunity to perform your husbandly
duties. Indicating that we would be completely alone together
and sexual intercourse would be possible. This was just an
hour br two before they took me from the prison. And said
they would arrange it and they brought this suit back again.
I got dressed and I guess it was about 2:30 that they took me
downstairs put me in a car with guards again. I think two
cars, Itm not sure I can't be positive. I got to where I just
wasn't looking around or paying any attention to what was going
on behind. But most of the time it seemed like two cars were
always going. They took me to another prison there in Moscow.
Is this the one you described with the wooden fence, and so forth?
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Powers: Yes. I don't know where it was or what it was. In fact
when I mentioned later - I asked them what the name of
that prison was, they said how did you know that was a
prison? And I said well I can see the bars and I can see
another building with bars through the window. I'm fairly
sure it was a prison. And I hadn't been there very long
until they brought her in. And this was a room with a
leather couch that they had put sheets and blankets on and
two pillows I think. There was a table with some fruit on
it and some sort of self carbonated drink that they had.
There were draperies on the windows, sort of a plush
chair - an easy chair of some kind I don't remember whether
it was leather or cloth. There was a peep hole in the door
like a normal cell but they had put a piece of paper over it
from the inside. They left that door unlocked when they left.
I know this doesn't show up on a tape recorder but I'll draw
a little diagram here so that you can get an idea of what this
is. It came down a long corridor thru a door. There were
windows - as coming down this corridor as there were windows
to the outside to the right and doors on the left, indicating that
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there were cells, rooms or something on the left. The last
two rooms on the left were partitioned off - or the hallway
in front of the last two rooms had a wall with a door so it
was completely isolated from the rest of the hallway. We
were in here. Here was a couch a table, a chair. The
guard stood out in the hallway thru this door here. He was
out in here somewhere. One or two, I don't know how many
because I never saw them.. No one in here - they took us
in here later after they came back and there was an office
with a desk and a chair or two. But it wasn't as plush as
the other room. This door here it had a hole in the door -
a peep hole thru the door but they had a piece of paper on
the inside of the door that no one looking from the outside
25X1A9A could thru it.
Blocked off.
Powers: And while we were there together no one came in. They
0
25X1A9A
said they would be back at 6 o'clock I think it was.
Everything was quiet.?
Powers: Everything was quiet. I looked out the window and I could
see a building behind several stories high with bars on all
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the windows.
Brick building?
Brick. I'm pretty sure. It was a tall window in this building.
Were there windows out this side?
No. This was blank wall - blank wall - one window here.
No door between here and there.
No. And one door here. We spent three hours together and
they came back just at the very time they said they would. I
think it was 6 o'clock.
Interr: Gary, were you able to communicate or did you communicate
anything to Barbara to pass out?
Powers: I think I told her to tell them that - none of the pilots were
mentioned none of the names were mentioned pilots names
were mentioned. Seems like I remember telling her this but
I'm not sure. I was pretty nervous inside.
Interr: Of course you couldn't trust anybody or anything.
Powers: I thought that a lot of recordings - or I tried to whisper to
her when I talked about anything. I don't know but I would
think that maybe it was bugged. But it seems to me that I
told her that but I'm not sure. If I didn't I wanted to I know
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that I told her also that as far as I knew I was shot down
Interr: I can understand the period of intense confusion.
Powers: Oh this was a very confusing time. And I was nervous. . .
I really don't remember.
Interr: But those two things that you think you . .
Powers: Either I did or I intended to.
Interr: It doesn't make any difference. I was just wondering if
you recalled anything.
Powers: I wanted you people to know very bad that as well as I knew
I was shot down. That's what I thought. And I thought that
you ought to know that if possible.
Interr: Alright. New we get over this three hour period. And I'd
like to take you back before the tape wears out and I think
that will be enough for us today because you have had a
rough day. Lets go back until you are transferred to Vladimir.
Now you leave the prison with Barbara. And what happens
then ?
Powers: Its see. I leave this particular prison - no Barbara leaves
first and then a little while later they take me back to this same
cell that I'd been at all the time. I don't know - probably a
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week after that there was this - they called me in and said
they wanted to ask me some questions about
0
and 25X1
I mean I think they said the B -47 pilots. I think
they called them both pilots. And that was
25X1
another man. But they did that not in the iUv{dL offices where
the usual interrogations were. But in one of the rooms in
this prison part itself. I'll have to draw you a diagram to
show you where it is one of these days. And for a very short
time they wanted to know if I recognized any of these photo-
graphs.
Interr: This is where they spread out these . . .
Powers: Yes. And as well as I can remember there were four photo-
graphs. I didn't recognize any of them. I told them that I
felt sure those boys weren't shot down - I mean were not over
the Soviet Union. But it would be very stupid for anyone to
fly over the Soviet Union or any other country in an airplane
as old as that one was. They wanted to know if I had seen
25X1A6A
these people at
They wanted me to draw diagrams
showing where the officers' club was. And I think the BOQ
I don't know what all but they had a perfect, diagram of the
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runway and the control tower and so forth from those radio
fact charts and let down books, So I drew this where the
Affix, the Officers' Club and so forth and they made no
comments about it. They just wanted to see it. They told
me that either one or both of these boys had said they had
25X1A6A seen me there at at the Officers' Club. They didn't
seem to ask too much. I can't remember . . .
Interr: This was a simple sort of question? They weren't aiming
at anything ?
Powers: Sort of more or less informal. They just talked to us about
you know about that type of thing. No stenographers to take
anything down - Just the two of them.
Interr: How long did this last?
Powers: I would say roughly thirty minutes. Not very long. They
didn't seem to be interested in anything in particular. I
don't know why they wanted this Officers' Club bit in there
or the BOQ I don't know. That's about all I can remember
that happened right in there right now, but there mustt. have
been a few other things during that time.
Interr: But it was only in the next
5'
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Powers: Yes it was that instance and back to the cell again.
Interr: Now how long did you stay there this time? At this cell?
Powers: Well now this was say about a week after - between a
week or two weeks after the trial. The trial was in the
middle of the month and it was in the latter part of the
month. Sometime around the - it was on the 8th of
September I remember this Oh no wait a minute. Now
somethime in here prior to the 8th of September they came
in with a female 'interpreter this time. I had never seen
her before.
Interr : This would be around or before the 8th of September.
Powers: Definitely before the 8th of September.
Interr: And now this is your same two?
Powers: This was Vadiliev and a female interpreter. I don't know
her name. First time I had ever seen her. And I had
forgotten all about her until I just recalled it just now.
They read me an article from a Russian newspaper that
she translated to me something that I might be interested
in they said. And it was about two Americans that had
defected to the Soviet Union or who had worked for some
type of organization - what was that?
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Interr: NSA ? National Security Agency.
Powers: Wanted to know if I had ever heard of that . . .
Interr: Martin and Mitchell?
Powers: Yeah. And they read me this article and what they had said
the reason they had come there - I didn't read the complete
article in Russian. Wanted to know if I had ever heard of
this National Security Agency. And I'd never heard of it.
Interr: Did they ask you if you had known Martin and Mitchell?
Powers: I don't remember whether they asked me that or not. It
didn't seem that they were wanting to ask me too many
;yuestions about it but they wanted to show me that some
Americans had defected the Soviet Union instead of the other
way around. They seemed very proud of that. Now that was
before the 8th. Now on the 8th of September they brought
me into a office there and said - I think this same girl and
Vasiliev. I'm almost recalling that other name. And they
showed me an article in "New York Times" newspaper in
which it stated that at a press conference when my father
arrived in New York that he had stated that I had told him
that I had not been shot down. Now here is something too
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that might be interesting. I personally wanted you peciple
to know that I thought I had been shot down. And when I
read this article It made me very angry with my father
that he had done this. I still don't know how it all came
about. He wrote in a letter later when I had said some -
thing about it that he had not said that. But they suggested
that I write a letter to "New York Times" and that fell in
with what I wanted to do anyways because I wanted you
people to know. I didnrt know whether you would be able
to believe it or not but that's the only way I could think of
refuting this story that appeared in the paper. So I wrote
the letter on the 8th of September. On the 9th of September
Vasiliev - this same girl interpreter and several guards -
two cars again drove me to Vladimir.
Intdrr: What did they say about that? I mean did they say this is
going to be your new place?
Powers: At this same time that I wrote the letter they sat there while
I wrote the letter.
Interr: To the Times or to your dad?
Powers: To the Times. Now this is still on the 8th. And they told me
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that on the 9th I would be transferred to a permanent prison.
Interr: And you wrote a letter to the Times?
Powers: Yes . To the editor of the "New York Times". On the 8th
of September. Now it/ I went to - I arrived at Vladimir
Prison - Prison #2 they called it on the 9th somewhere I
think before dinner before noon. I was put into this cell -
Well first I stayed a little while in the administration building -
I had the goods that my wife had bought for me that they took
care of. They took the list of the stuff that I had made of
this and I never saw it since - I didn't know what I had left
in storage there. Well this is getting close to the end -
On about the 17th - 18th of September I can't remember it
right now but if someone came to see me or - well someone
definitely came to see me but I don't know whether it was
from Moscow or from Vladimir - I believe it was from Vladimir
he said he got a telephone call from Moscow and they wanted
to know since they had forgotten to send this letter if they could
change the date from the 8th to the 18th. And I said yes. And
on the 20th Khrushchev came to the UN and I'm sure that had
something to do with it. That's what I've been thinking all the
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time I don't know. But of it at the time they asked about it
I just wanted to let you people know that I thought I had been
shot down. That was the purpose of that letter.
Interr: Now we've got you at Vladimir and I think this is a good place
to break. We're getting the narrative pretty well down. And
it's getting quite late. So lets you and I conclude at this point.
And take it up probably tomorrowv. So this will be Mr. Powers
25X1A9A and
concluding Tape # 12 of 16 February and the
time is now 4:46 P. M.
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