DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 33
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 11, 2003
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: February 20, 1962
• Content Type: TRANS

Approved For Release 20 fIp: cStcr 59R000100160001-0
0
s
i
s
S
I .
s
s
NRO
review(s)
40
25)
I)NIB e ruary 196,
Tape #16
Copy No.
00, THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS CODE WORD MATERIAL
WARNING
This document contains classified information affecting the national
security of the United States within the meaning of the espionage
laws, US Code, Title 18, Sections 793,, 794, and 798. The law prohibits
its transmission or the revelation of its contents in any manner to
an unauthorized person, as well as its use in any manner prejudicial
to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any
foreign government to the detriment of the United States.
THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN COMMUNICATIONS
INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS AT ALL TIMES
It is to be seen only by US personnel especially indoctrinated
and authorized to receive COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE
information; its security must be maintained in accordance with
COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE REGULATIONS.
No action is to be taken on any COMMUNICATIONS INTELLI-
GENCE which may be contained herein, regardless of the advantages
to be gained, unless such action is first approved by the Director
of Central Intelligence.
 NRO review(s)
Approved For Release 2004/09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000'119'Id0
TOP SECRET
Tape: #16
Date: 20 February 1962
Time: 1133 Hours
25X1A9A
We are starting now at 1133 a.m.
Frank, you recall the other day that we started to talk
about the interrogation process and we - and you went
through the first interrogation that they gave you in
Lubyanka Prison on the first of May - the one where they
had several men around the wall, 15 or 20 people in the
room and it was presided over by Rudenko, and it lasted
an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, orsomething like
that, and it appears that that first interrogation was
more or less a name, rank and serial number type of thing,
establishing who you were, why you were in Russia, and all
that sort of thing, it was your introduction to the interroga-
tion process. Now then, we also mentioned the other day ,
or you also put on the record that from then on up until
the time of your trial you were under constant interrogation.
That is, you went through three or four interrogations a
day, sometimes at night, for a while seven days a week -
they were of varying lengths from one hour to three hours -
25X1A9A
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84BOO459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
four hours, and some of them even longer than that -
to the best of your recollection now, going back to,
say, your second interrogation - after your first one,
after the first big one when Rudenko was there, and I
know you can't remember each one of them, the second
one, the third one, the fourth one, but, to the best
of your recollection I would like to have you develop
for me just how they proceeded and carried out this
interrogation process. Did they bring in experts?
Who presided? You said that Kussmine and Vasillyev
were your interrogators and Rodochev was your interpreter.
Now then, were they the only people you were exposed to
or did they run in a bank of experts on you, and what did
they want to know most? Did they want to talk about
Adana at 1010 first? Did they want to talk about the
plane first? See what I am driving at ?
I see what you are driving at, but it is very difficult
to remember this.
I realize this.
There was so many questions, and coming from several
different people. There is one thing that I forgot the
other day that I have thought of since then. Going through
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200
 25X1
Approved For Release 200$/09/04: CIA-IRDP84B00459R000100160001-0
some notes that I had, there was an interrogation
on the 2nd of May in the morning and that one was
completely left out of the evidence. It consisted
of a smaller group than the night before, on the 1st,
but some of the same people. If I am not mistaken,
Rudenko was there again, and I recognized in one of the
photographs I saw yesterday another big wheel that was
there. I think Paul said he was now head of the KGB.
He's got it down there - I don't remember his name.
25X1 A9 Head of the KGB then or now?
Powers: He was a wheel then, I could tell by the way the people
acted when he was around.
25X1A9A 0 Was It J$helepen?
25X1A9A
0
Shelepen, I'm almost positive. That's the name that Paul
mentioned yesterday in the photograp4 as I remember.
This seemed to be a fairly short interrogation the next
morning, and as well as I can remember, approximately as
long as the one the night before, establishing who I was,
where I was from, what I was doing, etc. The real
interrogation started on the 3rd of May.
Of course, in those preliminary interrogations there was -
you were CIA, on a photographic mission
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20 3/09/04: CIA RDP84B00459R000100160001-0 3
25X1A6A
25X1A
 25X1
25X1A6A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
0
25X1A9A
0
Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
what the equipment was , that I had instructions to turn
on the switches when and where it was annotated on the map.
That was established in the first two. They wanted my
name, where I was born, citizenship -
Who your superior officers were - any of that?
I don't remember whether that came up then or not.
Seems like in the first two it didn't - I don't think so.
Did they tie you in specifically with the U-2 plane?
What?
Did they tie you specifically in with the U-2 plane?
That is, did they identify the type of plane you were
flying? Get you to acknowledge that it was a U-2, or
anything like that?
You are talking about these first two.
Yes.
I can't remember any plane being mentioned, in these first
two, but it might have been.
How long did that second one last - on the 2nd of May?
I really don't know because I had forgotten about it until
I saw where I had made a note, and the reason I made the
note was because that that particular one was not included
in the evidence as presented to the Court - those books -
25X1A
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA - DP84B00459R000100160001-0 4
 Approved For Release 2003409/04: CIA-9DP84B00459R000100160001-0
T
- those eight volumes that they had.
Interr: They had each one of these interrogations recorded
in their volumes of evidence?
Powers: Yes, they were supposed to have been. I know that one
was missing for sure, and maybe another one or two, but
not very many. I mentioned this particular thing to my
lawyer and he just shrugged his shoulders and said it
was probably not important. But, from what I had been
told all of these things were supposed to have been
included.
Interr: That is, you would sign the transcripts of these
interrogations in Russian and in English and those
transcripts would go to make up the volumes of the
evidence.
Powers: Yes, and it might have been included in the Russian
volume, but in the English volume it definitely was left
out.
Interr: Well, then, how did they proceed after that? Did
Vasilliev and Rodochev do the entire interrogation?
Powers: You mean after the first two days?
Interr: Yes.
Powers: On the third there were these people Vasillief, Kuzmine,
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 3/09/04: Cl RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Rodochev, this Colonel of the Prosecutor's office, he
said, I think that there was several other people but
they didn't ask questions - just looked on. Kuzmine
seemed to be the one who was in charge and he did most
of it all the way through. Vasilliev had a few sessions
by himself when Kuzmine wasn't there but I'd say not more
than three or four. But Kuzmine would ask questions
occasionally during the time - I mean that Vasilliev
would ask questions occasionally during the time that
Kuzmine was interrogating. There were periods of time
that they brought in experts to question me, but these
people - Kuzmine, Vasilliev and Rodochev were usually
there. I think that they were always there. I am
pretty sure they were there but they would let the other
people ask the questions and they seemed to be the technical
people.
Interr: What kind of experts were you exposed to?
Powers: Someone asking questions about the airplane definitely.
If I am not mistaken they had some photographic men but
I couldn't tell them anything because I told them I had
don't
never seen the cameras. I/know whether it was one of
these same groups or maybe another group that got into
the electronics equipment but I told them the same thing -
25X1A
TOP SECRET 6
Approved For Release 2 3/09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA-FIDP84B00459R000100160001-0
that I didn't know what it was there for, what it
did, or anything else - that I had never seen it.
Interr: Did they go over your suit, or personal equipment?
Powers: Yes, they went - but this was some of the ones that
Vasilliav seemed to take over - my personal equipment
and survival equipment. They brought out my - well,
not my pack, but a box with my survival equipment in it
and they asked me what this was, what it was for, on each
piece.
Interr: Now, do you remember the names of any of these experts?
Powers: As well as I know they weren't introduced. Their names
appeared on these papers - the reports that they turned in
that was included in the evidence, but there was so many
of them that I can't remember. I didn't come in contact
with the names very often.
Interr: Gary, at any time, were you ever shown a book called the
"The Trial of the U-2", which was published in Chicago
and purports to be an official record of the trial?
Powers: No, I've never seen it. I heard from either my parents
or wife here in the States that one had been published,
or I read in one of the papers that it had been, but
that's the only thing I heard about it.
Interr: Yes, there was a variety of those things. There was one
25X1A
TOP SECRET 7
Approved For Release 200 DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 2003409/04: CIA-RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
T
in Spanish that was published in South America. During
this interrogation process, Gary, did at any time after
your capture, did you request to be placed in contact
with the American Embassy?
Powers: Yes, I told them that I would like to see a representative
of the American Embassy or an American lawyer and - not
allowed.
Intern How long was it before they let you write a letter?
Powers: I don't remember the exact day. If I am not mistaken
on the 25th of May I received my first letter. I never
did get it - I got to read it and give it back to them
but it was from a high school friend of mine by the same
name, Powers, and that might have been the reason they let
me see it. It was a short letter, written in care of Mr.
Khrushchev, was I think the address he put on it. It was
some time after that that they mentioned that they would
allow me to write home.
Interr: They placed no requirement on what you could say, did they?
Powers: Yes, I don't remember exactly what it was. I know that
there were things that I couldn't say in the letter and
one of them they brought back that I had to change after
they had taken it away for a day or maybe two days to read
it, I guess and check it, and not just change it - something
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 - DP84B00459R000100160001-%
 Approved For Release 2004/09/04: CIA-F9DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
in it - I had to rewrite the whole thing to make it
appear as if nothing had been marked out or taken out.
Interr: They just didn't like the way you had written it?
Powers: I don't remember what it was that I had said that they
didn't like because I tried to write so that it would go
through without any trouble.
Interr: Were there any other names besides this Kuzmine,
Vagilliav, Rodochev, Finnagan in the interrogation process
that you can pin down. Rodochev, I mean Rudenko and
Shelepin were there at the outset?
Powers: Yes, I would - I went through these photographs and
you also I think had a list of names with them but I
didn't go through the names. I might be able to pick
some out if I just went down the list of names - I'm
not sure. As far as this recalling the names - I'll
have to think about this some more. Maybe I can,
but it doesn't seem that I can.
Interr: Well, let me dig those out after lunch and we'll flip
through them.
Powers: One might be familiar - it might ring a bell -
Interr: All during this time you were in solitary confinement?
Powers: Yes, but they offered, a week or two after I was there,
to put me with someone who spoke English. I told them
25X1A
TOP SECRET 9
Approved For Release 200 RDP841300459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA RDP84BOO459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
I preferred to stay alone, because I figured it would
be a plant, which I am sure it would have been. Later on
I found out, when I was going through some of these laws
before the trial, some of the laws that pertained to me,
my rights and so forth - there was something there that
said that I had to be kept in solitary confinement, so
their offer was against the law, their own laws. They
said it would be another prisoner and they could probably
find another prisoner who spoke English. I was afraid that
I mightlaik in my sleep, or something, and I didn't want
anyone around.
Interr:_ Now, during this interrogation, were you always permitted
to sit on this couch?
Powers: When it was in this room that was the place I always sat.
In some of the other rooms there was usually a X %L desk
with a little table in front of it and I sat in front of the
little table facing the desk
Interr: What kind of chair?
Powers: One room I can remember had just a table and a stool
fastened to the floor - couldn't be moved. The other, I
think,was a chair with a back -
Interr: A straight backed chair?
Interr: The bulk, however, the bulk of the interrogation was
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200
/09/04: CIA-
TOP SECRET
conducted in the room where you sat on the couch?
Powers: Yes.
Interr: How would they arrange themselves while you were sitting
on the couch? At a table?
Powers: The stenographer would sit at the desk - the interrogator
would be there beside her at the desk. Someone would
always be between myself and the window - usually in a
chair and a lot of times Rodochev was on the couch beside
me and the interpreter.
Interr: Any recording devices on the table?
Powers: None that I could see.
Interr: Just this stenographer. And they didn't get rough or -
Powers: No, they made no threats -
Interr: How about hostility? Would one of them be hostile and the
other friendly or did they try to bat - whip you around
mentally that way - one man would be the villah and the
other the good guy?
Powers: No, I don't remember anything like that. Occasionally
I made them a little angry someway by not answering
properly what they wanted me to answer or something but
I could see that they would get angry but never said any
harsh words or made any threats or made any motions to
strike me or anything like that.
Now of all this interrogation, what did they want to know
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 25X1
25X1A6A
Approved For Release 2003 09/04: CIA- DP84BOO459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
most out of you? What were they most eager to get
from you?
Powers: That's really hard to remember. I know they really
pounded a lot on the number of flights I had made.
They asked a lot of questions about the aircraft.
They asked a lot of questions about the way I was
recruited and about the detachment.
Interr: Did they ask you about the detachment, as such? Did
they define it as
or anything like that, or did
they just ask you what was your unit? How was that
brought out?
and I told them the detachment
Powers: Lets see, I think they asked me about the unit/because
I knew there were records in the aircraft with the
detachment on it and also my identification card - I
think it was on that also. As well as I can remember,
in the first week or so, they didn't bring up the detach-
ment - I mean mention it to me, as if they already knew
it, but they said very little - they gave me very little
idea that they already knew something. I could tell
sometimes when maybe they would hear something or read
it in the papers and they would never tell me that they
did this - they would ask me about it first. One was,
have you ever taken a lie detector test - I told them no.
25X1A
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 - DP84B00459R000100160001-0 12
 Approved For Release 2003 09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Then they - I don't know whether they showed me an
article or told me about one - I think the New York
Times stated that when I was recruited that I did take
one. That made me a little angry at the newspaper
because I didn't want to give them any ideas there.
Interr: Did they resolve that question with you? Did you -
Powers: I just told them no and laughed it off - that's silly -
we don't do such things - its illegal - its not admitted
as evidence in the courts and all this sort of stuff,
and I never did admit that I had ever had one. I don't
know - I was thinking that if they thoughtI had already
had one, they would give me one themselves and I didn't
like this idea at all.
Interr: They didn't threaten you with a lie detector test, did
they?
Powers: No, they told me during this time that they didn't do
such things.
Interr: Now, when was it that they told you - set the date for
the trial? I believe it was -
Powers: I don't remember exactly when it was -
Interr: A short time, or a few days before?
Powers: It wasn't a long period before -
Interr: I think we talked about that - they set it for your
birthday and -
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 r 113911134 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0 13
 25X1
Approved For Release 200 09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Powers: Well, I wrote a letter, either the day that I found out
or a day after - somewhere along there - telling my parents
and wife when it would be - so I suppose they still have
those letters and I can find out very close to the exact
date but I can't exactly remember -
Interr: Well, was it at that point that they brought in Grenyev
and designated him as your lawyer?
Powers: Yes.
Intern: You were exposed to Grenyev after the trial was announced?
Or the date of the trial was set?
Powers: Yes. It was right about the same time. I'm almost positive
it was afterwards, but I don't know -
Interr: How did he counsel you, or did he?
Powers: I had very little counsel, I'll tell you. He just seemed
to be going along for the ride. He made a few suggestions
on what he thought would help - he made no bones about it
that I would be sentenced - but he thought maybe he could
get it lessened by playing on my modest origin - I mean
my parents not being rich and so forth - he made some
little hints and suggestions about what my final statement
would be, but didn't come out flatly and dictate it, but
he told me what I should put down and I more or less followed
TOP SECRET
1091-0141
25X1 Approved For Release 200 - DP84BOO459ROO
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84BOO459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
his advice because I thought it couldn't do any harm.
Interr: That final statement you did make to the Court was
dictated by Grenyev -
Powers: It wasn't dictated, but suggested. In fact, on the last
day of the trial he suggested a change in it - something
about repentence I didn't have in there - he asked me if
I had it in there, and. I said, "No", and he said, "Would
you mind putting it in", and I said, "No", and added it.
Interr: Now, at various points during the trial there was this
reference to "you were sorry you were involved - you were
sorry about this whole thing -
Powers: Well, that was -
Interr: Was that dictated to you in any way?
Powers: No one came out flatly and said you should say this, but
I was told it would help - well I think its in their laws
also that sincere repentence or something like this is
taken into consideration. There were many things said
in that trial that I didn't necessarily mean when I said
them, but I thought it might help.
Interr: That's the Oriental philosophy - you'll run into the same
thing in the For East but it doesn't have the some
implications as it does in this country.
Powers: How's that?
25X1A
TOP SECRET 15
Approved For Release 200A F M4 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 2003fO9/04 : CIA-IRDP84B00459R000100160001-0
Interr: For instance, in Japan, if you hit someone with your car
even though he jumps in front of you, you jump out and you
express sorrow for the matter that mitigates the whole thing.
You are sorry because he is suffering and not because you
are at fault, or anything like that.
Powers: That's definitely in their laws, according to the ones
they quoted me - sincere repentence and all this sort of
stuff -
Interr: In preparing you for your appearances in the docket, so
to speak, were you allowed any notes to take up there
with you - any written statements?
Powers: I think I would have been - I know I had some paper to
take notes on and a pencil. I had a copy of the indictment
in English, which I read through as it was read over the -
or at least I think I did. As far as I know, I took no
notes with me and made very few during the thing, but I
believe it would have been allowed.
Interr: But, in your specific case you didn't?
Powers: No. Well, you see, when they told me I could go through
this evidence and made notes that might help me, I started -
I was sitting over in the corner at a little table and chair
going through this and I made one or two notes -
Interr: This was when the Soviets were presenting their evidence -
Powers: Yes
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 - P84B00459R000100160000
 25X1
Approved For Release 2003 09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Interr: This was before you were put on the stand?
Powers: Yes, it was after the trial had been announced and I
could review the evidence to get familiar with everything
before the trial. I made a few notes and one of the things
I remember noting down was the fact that one of these
interrogations, or records of interrogations was missing.
They told me, after I had gone through this and it was time
to go back to the cell - they said I would have to leave
the notes there - so I immediately tore them up.
Interr: Now this is before we go into the court room?
Powers: Yes.
Interr: I am talking now about the actual conduct during the trial -
did you take any notes with you when you went into the actual
trial, when the first judge called the trial to order, or
however it was given -
2nd Interr: When you were up there behind the lights in the box -
Powers: No, I'm pretty sure I had no notes - I had some paper to
take notes on, and In almost positive I had a copy of
the indictment.
Interr: You were brought from your cell then up into this witness
box -
Powers: No, I was brought from the cell to this building in a room
downstairs. I had to come up to the 2nd floor - they brought
25X1A
TOP SECRET
X1 Approved For Release 200 - DP84B00459R0001001600070
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
me up in an elevator each time and from there onto the
stage, or whatever it was, into the docket.
Intern: And then you sat in this during the whole procedure.
Powers: Yes.
Interr: But, you didn't, in this box-like structure, you didn't
have any written material that you could refer to or
anything like that?
Powers: No, I had this indictment - I'm pretty sure of that,
but, as far as notes - no
Intern: And, then as they presented their evidence, you simply
sat there - you couldn't make notes on the indictment
or anything?
Powers: No, they gave me some paper and said I could make notes
but I remember making very few notes.
Interr: Then, your answers, after you began to testify, your
answers were direct from you, is that right?
Powers: Yes, based on what I had said before - had told them
before.
Intern: And you were following what you had told the interrogators
previously?
Powers: Yes.
Interr: And, as far as you can recall, your answers followed the
pattern of interrogation?
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 - DP84B00459R000100160001-0 18
 Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Powers: Oh, yes, they asked only one question that I can
remember that was not included in the interrogation;
Interr: What was that?
I had given
Powers: That was whether all the evidence/during the interrogation
was the truth. My lawyer told me he was going to ask that
if it wasn't asked by the prosecution, but it was asked
by the prosecution, so he deleted it from his -
Interr: Now, at any time during the trial, when you were being
questioned, did they pull any surprise situation on you?
In other words, did they confront you with any new evidence?
Powers: No.
Interr: Everything followed -
Powers: Everything followed something that had gone on before -
Interr: That had gone on with the interrogators?
Powers: I felt that - my feeling of the trial was that they knew
exactly how long it was going to last - probably knew
what the sentence was going to be before it was passed -
they Just seemed to know everything - they asked questions
that they knew what I had answered before and expected me
to answer the same answer to.
Interr: Were you given any warning just before the trial to keep
your answers strictly to that which was worked over in the
25X1A
TOP SECRET 19
Approved For Release 200 - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
interrogation room?
Powers: Well, more or less a warning that it would probably
be very bad if I didn't. They didn't say that it would
be death or anything like that, but that it would be worse.
Interr: Do you recall how that was put to you - by hint - by
Vasilliev- by Kusmine, or both?
Powers: I think it was Grenyev, my lawyer.
Interr: Your lawyer advised you, then, to stick to the pattern
developed in the interrogation?
Powers: Yes.
Interr: At any time, during the actual trial, did you seek to
insert anything that hadn't gone over before?
Powers: I tried to explain a little about the - well, this was
all gone over before, though - it was just the way they
had worded, and were insinuating - like these firestarters
I had - I remember that - they called them incendiary
devices - well, its actually what it is, but I got the
impression that they were trying to give the impression
that they were not to just start a little camp fire with
but something to burn buildings and stuff like that, and
I tried to explain that. Of course I had explained this
before. And, the pistol, I tried to tell them that I
only intended to use it for hunting, but they brought
25X1A
TOP SECRET 20
Approved For Release 200 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200$/09/04: CIA DP84B00459R000100160001-0
RET
out that it was a weapon of assassination.
Interr: During the three days of the trial, where would you
go at night? Would they take you back to Lubyanka?
Powers: Yea, same cell.
Interr: Would they come in at night during the hearings to
tell you that you had done well?
Powers: No, I saw no one but my own lawyer. I don't know whether
it was after the first night - there was one night that
he didn't come - I think he came after the first night,
and then after the trial was over he dropped in for about
thirty minutes.
Interr: But you didn't see the interrogators on the way from your
cell up to the trial room?
Powers: No, I don't think so.
Interr: But, in the court they presented evidence?
Powers: No, the interrogators didn't present any evidence.
Interr: They did not appear?
Powers: No.
Interr: Were they present?
Powers: I was told, I think it was after the trial was over,
that they - Rodochev and Kuzmine told me that they saw
me wave to my wife - that they were in the audience.
25X1A
TOP SECRET 21
Approved For Release 20 /09/04: CIA DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 25X1
Approved For Release 200;/09/04: CIA-f2DP84B00459R000100160001-0
Now I dont know whether they were just there the first
day or what. But, I assume that they were there during
the whole thing.
Interr: Now, you think this Kuzmine's picture is probably some-
where in this crowd?
Powers: I certainly hope so.
Interr: Well, we'll get a glass on that when we get a little time -
Powers: Because - well, he said he was there - he saw me wave to
my wife when I finally saw her - I think it was about
two hours after this thing started when I was leaving
for the first time for the first recess, but that's all
he mentioned - just that once incident.
Interr: Then, in fact, the presentation of the State's case
was totally in the hands of members of the court?
Powers: Well, Rudenko, the prosecutor, well - you see, he had
been on the very minimum of three interrogations and he
seemed to do it all there. As well as I can remember I
did not see the interrogators, themselves, or the
interpretor, while the trial was going on.
Interr: There was some publicity over the fact that the skin
on your face, where it was peeling, or something like
that - what was that?
25X1A
X1
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 77 CIA-R P84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200P/09/04 : CIA-IRDP84B00459R000100160001-0
Powers: That was - I had had a cold sometime in early August
and they treated it with a sun lamp and I apparently
got too close. They treat everything with a sun lamp,
or something like a sun lamp -
Interr: Infra -red?
Powers: No, it isn't heat - its sun - I had to wear goggles -
Interr: Ultra-violet?
Powers: Ultra-violet, I suppose. Also, I had something that
I thought was athlete's foot and they did that and
burned my feet some too so that it peeled, but this
was earlier.
Interr: Gary, after you met Grenyev, your attorney, did the
interrogation team of Kuzmine and Vasilliev ever talk
to you again after that?
Powers: I can't really say for sure - I think I talked to them -
but no questions - seems like Rodochev and Kuzmine came
to the cell a couple of times - asked me how I was,
if I needed any books to read and stuff like that, but
no questions as far as I can remember.
Interr: So, when your attorney steps in, the interrogation has
been concluded at that point -
Powers: It had been concluded before that point.
25X1A
TOP SECRET 23
Approved For Release 20 - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200
/09/04: CIA-
DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Interr: About how long?
Powers: The 30th of April, I think they officially concluded
it. I think after that there might have been one or
maybe -
Interr: The 30th of April?
Powers: June, June, the 30th of June. I think that after that
there was one or two little short sessions of some kind
but nothing that seemed of any importance.
Intern: Then you really weren't occupied on any interrogation
during July or August before the trial?
Powers: There's some things that happened in there, but I don't
remember just what they were. There was one or two little
short interrogations and there might have been some of
these experts that came bac4& or further questions, but
I had a lot of free time, if you can call it that -
during that time. I had longer walks during the day -
I read a lot more in the cell, expecting any minute to
be pulled out into the room where the interrogations
took place, but it was -
Interr: You see, they started interrogating
about the 3rd of July - the 3rd or 4th of July, so friend
Rodochev was pretty busy -
25X1A9A
25X1A
TOP SECRET 2l.
Approved For Release 20 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Powers: Was he the chief -
Interr: He was the interpreter for one of them - I think it
25X1A9A wasand Finnegan was the interpreter for the
other, so it appears that they laid off Gary, here,
after - not in anticipation of these two guys, but
they were busy on these other two prisoners.
2nd Interr: If we can identify Kusmine we may find that Kusmine
is one of the men who worked them the other way.
1st Interr: Yes, yes, we don't have Kusmine as a name, you know
in connection with the others -
Powers: Barbara said something she tried to draw - not draw -
what is it - identification kit or something of some
of the people. Now, she saw Kusmine and Rodochev
together -
Interr: Now, sometime in the future we will want to see if we
can reconstruct it if we can't find a photograph -
Powers: She probably did this shortly after she got back, so
hers would be, maybe, more accurate than mine would be
since it has been so long, but maybe I could add to it
or something -
Interr: Gary, did you give any thought to possibly disrupting
the trial by challenging any of their statements or
25X1A
TOP SECRET 25
Approved For Release 200 /UU/U4: CIA - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- P84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
anything like that?
Powers: Yes, I thought about it, but I couldn't see that it
would do much good. It would just make a bigger mess
than what it was going to be anyway.
Interr: And certainly your attorney -
Powers: No, he said that would not be very good at all.
Interr: He said that wouldn't be very good at all - what
message did that convey to you?
Powers: It conveyed to me that it would be a good idea not to
do it.
Interr: Why not?
Powers: That things would go much worse with me if, say I
refused to answer their questions, or answered questions
differently, or anything like this.
Interr: Well, of course at that time - were you still confronted
with the possibility of the death sentence in this case?
Powers: Up until I got the sentence from the judges. Just before
that - I think I had more or less decided in my own mind
that it wouldn't be a death sentence and since he asked
for 15 years I - since the prosecutor asked for 15 years
I assumed it would be a little less than that - I figures
about 12 years. But, up until that time I had po idea.
Gary, then for the record, you made no disclosures at the
trial of any type that hadn't been previously talked over
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200J/09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
26
 25X1
Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
with the interrogation team?
Powers: Not a single word - I'm sure I didn't -
Interr: Shall we break for lunch?
2nd Interr: Just let me skip around here just - it will take
just a few minutes? We can come back - we've got
plenty of time -
Interr: While I am thinking about it, did you ever take a trip
to Berlin? Were you ever in Berlin - prior to your release
here a few days ago?
Powers: Nov that was the only time.
Interr: I think we talked fellow,
the guy that you went on the boar hunt with -
You recall that boar hunt?
X1A9A
25X1A9A
Powers:
Interr:
Powers:
just the other clay - 25X1A9A
de the arrangements - 25X1A9A
made the arrangements through somebody -
0
- that's all that I can remember right now.
There was an interpreter that worked on the base from
the Legal office there - I don't remember his name, and
this man - I suppose its the same that you are referring
to because he seemed to be the one who set it up.
Interr: This man - I can't pronounce his name - but he would
know that you men were pilots?
25X1A9A
25X1A
TOP SECRET z27
2X1 Approved For Release 20 3/09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA-R P84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Powers: I don't know - I have no idea - we didn't talk about
it - in fact I talked to him very little -
Interr: Had you ever met him before that day?
Powers: No, and I don't think I ever saw him after that.
Interr: Never went to his house?
Powers: No.
Interr: Do you know whether any of the other pilots went 25X1A6A
25X1A9A
Powers: As far as I know, none of them went - I never heard of
any of them being there.
Interr: Did you ever take a trip to Istanbul?
Powers: Istanbul one time - it was I think the time that Barbara
and I were coming back to the States for me to get a physical
examination and renew the contract. We got in there -
Interr: Came back -
Powers: Commercial air - spent one night at the Istanbul Hilton
and left the next morning.
Interr. Yes, we have a record of that. Now, then your trips to
Beirut were - lets go over that real quickly here -
Powers: There was one trip - I think it was the first trip from
Interr: R & R flight?
t I don't remember who -
25X1A
28
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 /UU/U4: CIA - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA-R P84BOO459R000100160001-0
P SECRET
Powers: Yes.
Interr: With Barbara?
Powers: Yes, she was with me. She got ill while she was there
doctor,
great number of people on that particular flight -
25X1A9A
Interr: We'll not go into that - we've got a record of that flight.
Powers: Then there was a T-33 trip that
and myself 25X1A9A
went on. We went down - I don't remember exactly, but I
think it was in the morning and came back in the afternoon.
Interr: Is that when you ordered the ring?
Powers: Yes.
Interr: And who was it along, or picked them up later? Or, did
you go back and get the rings?
Powers: I think it was a captain from the base there - who flew
the C-47.
0
and I couldn't go back - we tried to go
back in a T-33 again, but without - we didn't have VHF
radio in the T-33 so they stopped us from going in there.
So, we got this Captain - they made a run about once a
week or so - something like that - and got him to go pick
them up for 'us.
We've got a record of that.
Interr: /No other time were you ever in Beirut?
25X1A
TOP SECRET 29
Approved For Release 200 RDP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA- DP84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
Powers: No, not that I can recall.
Interr: Barbara went once after that but you didn't accompany her?
Powers: No.
Interr: Now let me see if I can reconstruct this for you - after
you and - lets see, I think you got back from the States
around November of '59 -
Powers: It was the latter part of November.
Interr: Yes. Then, in January, I think you went up into Germany
to have your teeth worked on?
Powers: I broke a finger - a knuckle here either the last day or
two of November or the 1st day or two of December, so I
couldn't fly. I think in December I went there to have
my teeth worked on and spent -
Interr: Early part of December -
Powers: Before Christmas -
Interr: Yes, that's right - You came back -
Powers: Yes, and Barbara and I went in the latter part of January,
to pick up the car and also get another partial plate made.
Interr: Now, where were you over Christmas? You weren't doing any
flying in that period? Were you in Adana at that time?
Powers: Yes, I spent Christmas in Adana. In fact, I got home just
before Christmas because I remember bringing some Christmas
30 25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200-31009410041 . - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For Release 20 3/09/04 m - P84B00459R000100160001-0
TOP SECRET
trees back for some of the people there. I guess I got
back on the 23rd or 24th of December.
Interr: Lets break it off at this point.
Tape is going to be adjourned. This is tape No. 16 -
for a lunch period. The time is now 12:20.
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 - DP84B00459R000100160001-0
 Approved For ReleaseTop/0EPEC fbrTB00459R000100160001-0
Approved For Releas /0 00459R000100160001-0