ROUTING AND RECORD SHEET TO DDA ATTN: (Sanitized)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP86-00101R000100020017-4
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: December 14, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 3, 2002
• Sequence Number: 17
• Publication Date: May 30, 1978
• Content Type: FORM

^ UNCLASSIFIED 'INTERNAL CONFIDENTIAL
^ SECRET'
WAM CIA
ROUTING AND RECORD SHEET
SUBJECT: (Optional)
FROM:
EXTENSION
NO.
Legislative Counsel
6D15 11Q
DATE
30 Ma 1978 S
TO: (Officer designation, room number, and
building)
DATE
OFFICER'S
COMMENTS (Number each comment to show from whom
RECEIVED
FORWARDED
INITIALS
to whom. Draw a line across column after each comment.)
1 DDA
Attn:
Attached is a Memo for the
2.
Record re 16 May former DCI Helms'
t
-~.; ,n
testimony before the Senate Select
Coimnittee on Intelligence with
3.
regard to S. 2525, the intelligent
0 it
AY 197
charter legislation.
4.
Of particular note are the
--following:
5?
--Senator Bayh expressed a
willingness to reduce dramatically
the number of reports presently
_-
6
called for under S. 2525.
--Senator Goldwater stated th
charter legislation. should serve
as a vehicle to help eliminate the
problem of divulgences of intellig
8.
information gathered through Intel
ligence sources.
--Senator Goldwater said he h
asked his own legal, advisors to
formulate le
islation directed at
g
10.
the misuse of information gathered
through intelligence sources.
11.
--Senator Goldwater, stating
that Members of Congress are neophy
i
i
h
12
n t
e
ntelligence business, said
.
that, in his opinion, a good two
years would pass before the thane
13.
become intelligible or satisfact
14.
15.
Assistant ,is alive ounce .
FORM L1O USE PRE I
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3-62 V EDITIONS
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SECRET
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vu MEW CONFIDENTIAL ^ USE ONLY ^ UNCLASSIFIED
 STAT Approved For Release 2002/10/30 : CIA-RDP86-00101 R000100020017-4
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OLC 78-0399/84
30 May 1978
SUBJECT: Testimony of Former DCI Richard Helms before the
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence re S. 2525,
Intelligence Charter Legislation
1. On 16 May 1978 the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI)
continued the intelligence charter legislation hearings, receiving testi-
mony from former DCI Helms. Present on behalf of the Director of Central
Intelligence were Assistant General Counsel, 0GC and
Specia sistant, IC, and the undersigned; Mr. II
Office of Training, was present as an observer. Members of the
SSCI present were Senators Birch Bayh (D., Ind.), Daniel P. Moynihan
(D., N. Y.), Barry Goldwater (R., Ariz.), John Chafee (R., R. I.) and
Jake Garn (R., Utah). Bill Miller, SSCI Staff Director, and several
staff members were present. Carolyn Fuller, Senator Walter Huddleston's
(D., Ky.) Legislative Assistant was also in attendance.
2. Mr. Helms began the hearing stating that while he had no formal
statement to make he wished to make some observations for the record.
Mr. Helms stressed the following points:
--S. 2525 would create more difficulties than it resolves.
--S. 2525 would create a legal structure that would diminish
the flexibility of the President in the national security arena;
while not denying the Congress an oversight role, it is the
President who should develop guidelines and restrictions for
intelligence.
--S. 2525 would have the operative effect of allowing the
Committee staff to run intelligence.
--S. 2525 calls for too many written reports.
--S. 2525 should provide the DCI with an enforcement
mechanism with regard to his statutory responsibility to
protect intelligence sources and methods.
--S. 2525 contains too many confusing definitions while
a key phrase, "national security," is left undefined.
STAT
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3. During the question and answer period the following questions
and/or statements were made by the Senators present:
Senator Bayh:
--wondered if it were possible to establish general
guidelines defining the width and breadth of authority as
for example in the intelligence charter legislation without
getting into micro-managements
--suggested that instead of 67 separate reports as now
called for under S. 2525, it might be better to have two or
three'good!'-reports and discussions between oversight Senators
and Representatives and the DCI.
--read that portion of S. 2525 which would codify the
oversight function of the SSCI and asked Mr. Helms if he would
like to comment on the language.
--asked Mr. Helms how the Government could respond to the
problem of "leaks" while balancing first amendment rights.
--asked Mr. Helms to expand on his earlier statement in
which he emphasized that the DCI should be given an enforcement
mechanism to carry out his responsibility to protect intelligence
sources and methods.
Senator Goldwater:
--made the point that, in his opinion, there is a rather
sizeable segment of Congress that is completely opposed to the
concept of intelligence and that, in his opinion, there is no
doubt that the media have members who are completely opposed
to the continuation of any intelligence gathering.
--wondered about the impact of leaks and divulgence of
classified information on our allies and their confidence in
the ability of the U.S. to keep a secret.
__ ked_-ifin Mr. Helms' minion thecurrent laws re
subversion are adequate.
--made the point that the intelligence charter should
serve as a vehicle to help eliminate the problem of divulgences
of intelligence information gathered through intelligence sources.
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--said that he has asked his own legal advisors to formulate
legislation that would be directed at the misuse of in ormation
gathered through intelligence sources.
--asked if Mr. Helms was in favor of the U.S. continuing to
conduct covert actions.
--asked if the covert action weapon should be stricken from
the hands of the DCI's and stated, after Mr. Helms responded to
the question, that he wished the media and the American people
would understand clearly that covert actions are not carried out
at the will and whim of the DCI but each must be approved and
ordered by the President himself.
--asked if the standard that any covert action be "essential
to the national security" is a reasonable standard.
--stated that in his opinion a good two years would pass
before the charters become intelligible or satisfactory and
said that the Members of Congress are neophytes in the
intelligence business.
Senator Moynihan:
--stated that the process of reorganizing CIA is making
it impossible for the CIA to fulfill the function for which
it was created, viz., to take a "forward anti-Soviet position
in the world."
--underscored the fact that the Agency's security problems
developed concomitant with the breakdown of the political
consensus that supported the Agency.
--stated that the CIA (as of late 1960's, early 1970's)
instead of being, as designed, a danger to Soviet expansion
has been declared a danger to the American people.
--stated that we indict more intelligence officers than
we do spies and this in face of a clear Soviet expansion in
the world.
--emphasized that while an enormous amount of concern is
being expressed re the actions of the CIA, we are unconcerned
with the Soviet Union which is actively spying on Americans
in massive numbers through the interception of their telephone
calls.
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--stressed that the Russians are operating massively in this
country.
--stated that there is at this moment a political agenda
to what appear to be procedural matters which is having-the operative
effect of making it as difficult as possible for the CIA and
the FBI to operate, and this while the Russians are in fact
expanding around the world.
--stated that the ICGB do not respect the Fourth Amendment rights
of U.S. citizens and that the politicians of'this generation are making it
impossible to resist Soviet espionage in this country.
Senator Chafee:
--asked if the potential of disclosure has served to
reduce the amount of information available from foreign sources
and foreign intelligence services.
--wondered if it is really possible to keep a secret today
such as the type exemplified by the breaking of the Japanese
code in World War II.
--asked if, in Mr. Helms' opinion, clandestine human
intelligence is passe.
Senator Garn:
--asked Mr. Helms? opinion of separating the DNI and the
DCI into two separate positions held by two individuals, one
in the White House and one at CIA Headquarters in Langley.
--stated that he agreed with Mr. Helms that the two
titles should reside in one person.
4. In response to questions and comments by the Senators,
Mr. Helms:
--stated that the National Security Act of 1947 might still
be adequate if Congress had played its proper oversight role
all along.
--stressed that legislation can never cover all con-
tingencies and tends to put things in a straight jacket.
--emphasized that to require too many reports results in
a constant traffic in paper and pleaded that the legislation
be made simpler in this regard.
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4
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--stressed that the main problem with oversight is security
and that oversight should be limited to the House and Senate
Intelligence Committees.
--stated that the success of all covert action is tied to
the security surrounding the operations themselves; "... it is
not possible ... to run an adequate and successful covert
operation if it is leaking around the edges all the time.,,
--testified to the difficulty in finding a solution to
stop leaks and wondered if even criminal penalties would
serve much of a deterrent purpose.
--emphasized that for the DCI to protect intelligence
sources and methods, he must be given authority to investigate
leaks by employees of the Agency or by those outside the
Agency in view of the FBI's distaste for conducting such
investigatiorr; one way or another the charter legislation
should address this issue.
--stated that the "illusion that [DCI's] have been fiddle-
faddling with their oversight committees over the years is a
myth that has been created in the Congress."
--described the recent leaks of intelligence material and
secrets and other state secrets as-a~hemorrhage which will put
the U.S. at a serious disadvantage.
--stated that our allies and sources will not be forthcoming
knowing that what they tell us will end up in the newspapers
the next day or will put themselves in jeopardy.
--stressed that "[t]his is a time when ... intelligence
can't be too good, and we can't possibly have too much of it,"
especially in view of the Russian assertiveness around the world.
--stated that there is no substitute for the conduct of
covert actions and to strike such a weapon from the hands
of the President in the modern context would be a great
mistake.
--stressed that there is a common misconception that the
covert action authority resides in the DCI whereas, in effect,
it is the President himself who must approve the action.
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--stated that on the issue of counterintelligence a great
deal of work remains to be done and that the American people
should not fall prey to the assumption that until one catches
a spy, there are no spies really doing any spying.
--agreed with Senator Moynihan's statement that the Russians
are operating massively in this country.
--stated that the Freedom of Information Act has had a
devastating effect on intelligence and asked that some
intelligence exclusion be written into the FOIA.
--emphasized that in his opinion small staffs and smaller
committees make for better security.
--stressed the need for the clandestine human element in
intelligence to be used along side technological developments.
--stated that S. 2525 should not provide for the possibility
of the DNI being a different individual than the DCI; both
titles should reside in the same person.
Assistant Legislative Counsel
Distribution:
1 - D/NFAC
- AD/M-NFAC
V- DDA
STAT 1 - DDO/PCS/I
1 - DDS&T
1 - Comet
1-IG
1 - 0CC
1 -Sec. Asst. for Public Affairs
STAT 1 -
STAT 1 - OT
OLC: RJI'/ o sm ay 1. 8)
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STAT