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June 25, 1986
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Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 114W - diplomatic facilities. preclude many firms, especi nies who had been in business fo equipments and installations are evolving companies resulting from the recent upsurge in worldwide terrorism. The committee provision has the effect of precluding many of these newer companies from competing for less competition, the taxpayer will end by reducing the 5 year requirement to 2 years and striking the business Mr. President, the fourth amend- ment establishes a setaside for small businesses. and now I quote from the amendment, "to the extent practica- The fact of the matter is that the State Department has a history of pre- ferring to deal with a small number of ices. Small businesses around the country who are not in favor find it almost impossible to successfully bid My amendment attempts to ad implementatio, pans the smaller projects. Accordingly. these four amendments deal with enhancing the opportunities for American firms to do the kind of proposing to take issions Act. nt, & very brief explana- committee bill is presently believe that American com- CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENA'l The assistant legislative clerk called the roll. Mr. SIMPSON: I announce that the Senator from Oregon (Mr. PACxwooa] is necessarily absent. The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. PRLSSI.zR). Are there any other Sena- tors in the Chamber desiring to vote? The result was announced-yeas 99, nays 0, as follows: construction that we are talking about in support of the diplomatic security initiative that this Congress is going to fund at a very high level this year. These amendments will enhance the opportunity of American companies, both large and small, to do that work. It is also the purpose of one of these amendments to ensure that only American companies will compete for projects involving physical or techni- cal security. I believe that fairly describes the amendments. which have been cleared ness is the Diplomatic Security Pro- tives the Foreign Relations Committee had in drafting the amended version of H.R. 4151 Was to see that American support the amendment on our side Co reconsider * vote by which the man and ranking or)ty memoer of the Foreign Relati Committee and their staff working th us and work- ing out these amen ents and allow- ing us to present them t this time. I am sure the small b iness commu- nity of America does ap eciate that. Mr. LUGAR. I thank Senator. The PRESID ING O CER (Mr. RuoaAn). Under the pre us order, the hour of 2 p.m. having ved, the vote will now occur on t Simon The question is on agree to the amendment of the Senator fr m Illi- nois. On this question, the yand nays have been ordered. and the clerk will call the roil. S8425 YEAS-99 Abdnor Glenn McConnell Andrews Goldwater Meicher Armstrong Clore Meuenhaum Baucus Clorton Mitchell Bentsen Gramm Moynihan Biden Grassley Murkoaski Bingaman Harkin Nickles Boren Hart Nunn Bosehwtts Hatch Pet) Bradley Hatfield Pressler Bumpers Hawkins Pro Burdick Hecht Pry Byrd Heflin Ile Chafee Hems iegle Chiles Helms Rockefeller Cochran HoWngs Roth Cohen Humph Rudman Cranston Inou 8arbalm D'Amato Jo n Sasser DeConcini n Simpson Denton Kennedy Specter Dixon Kerry Stafford Dodd Lautenbers Stennis zasleton as Trible East Lugar Wallop Beam Mathias Warner )titan Matsunaga Weicker Ford Mattingly Wilson Gan McClure Zorinsky NOT VOTINO-1 O 1420 Mr. LUGAR. Mr. President. I move to reconsider the vote by which the amendm90 wA..d to. _ The motion to lay on the table was agreed to. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. I ask unanimous consent that the pending amendment be temporarily set aside. The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- out objection. it is so ordered. AMLHDMLNT NO. 2154 (purpose: To provide for forfeiture of pro- ceeds derived from espionage activities, and for other purposes) ? Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President, I send an amendment to the desk. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment will be stated. The bill clerk read as follows: The Senator from Alaska (Mr. 8- awls]. for himself. Mr. Dmaow, Mr. TavaMoss. Mr. LZAET. Mr. MvRxovn NI. Mr. D'AMATo. Mr. Boas.. Mr. LAxALT, Mr. Zosness:T. Mr. McCoxxa.L. Mr. AslStaoxa. Mr. Dtntss- ssaosR. Mr. MArrIx6LT, Mr. Lsvnr. Mr. AN- nssws, and Mr. LccA* proposes an amend- ment numbered 2184. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. I ask unanimous consent that the reading of the amendment be dispensed with. Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 W June 25, 1986 S 8426 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENATE The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- "(!xi) The Attorney General of the Mr. STEVENS. This legislation. Mr. ie United States. at his discretion. is author- president, is not too complicated. It ies sp s f lowing: Section 79d of title 18, United States Code. is amended by Inserting at the end thereof the following: '?(d)1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section or of any other felony in vio- lation of the provisions of this chapter shall forfeit to the United Statom irrespective of any provision of State law- (A) any property constituting. or derived from. any proceeds the person obtained. di- rectly or indirectly. as the result of such %io- lation: and (B) any of the person's property used. or intended to be used. in any manner or part. to commit, or to facilitate the commission of, such violation. "(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a conviction of a violation of this section or of any other felony in viola- tion of this chapter. shall order that the de- fendant forfeit to the United States all property described in paragraph (1) of this subsection. (3) The provisions of subsection (b). (c) and (e) through (o) of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853 (b), (c). and (e)-(0)) shall apply to- ?(A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection: ??(B) any seizure or disposition of such property: and ??(C) any administrative or judicial pro- . sp Iced to pay. an amount not to exceed addresses the problem o $100.000 as a reward for information- who have been selling information ??(A) leading to the arrest or conviction of concerning the security of our country any person for- and have been profiting from that ? (i) the commission of a felony in viola- tion of this chapter or for a conspiracy or action. attempt to commit such an offense: or it would deny spies the proceeds of "(ii) an offense described in subsection the sale of the information. It would (dX4) of this section. or for a conspiracy or deny spies any royalties from the sale attempt to commit such an offense: or of any story pertaining to their activi- (B) mitigt o the the effect of a iru felony ties, and it would allow rewards for lion, tthis of the a In violation n of this chapter r or o or or an offense those who turn in information which described in subsection (dX4) of this section. leads to the apprehension of spies. "(2) The Attorney General or the desig- By taking away the proceeds of espi- neee of the Attorney General shall deter- onage and confiscating property used mine whether an Individual furnishing ern- to commit espionage, we will not just formation described in paragraph (1) is enti- be punishing those convicted of espio- tied to a reward under this section and the amount to be paid. except that the author- Wage: we will make them think twice ity to pay a reward of $10.000 or more shall about entering into the career of not be delegated to any person other than spying for profit. the Deputy Attorney General. the Associate I believe that we can make it harder Attorney General, or the Director of the for people to get their hands on infor. Federal Bureau of Investigation. A determi nation of this type. We can try to ini- nation made by the Attorney General or the prove detection methods and we will take various steps to increase security. subseectictioon f the shallb be e final l and General conclusiveunder. this and d sub no court shall have jurisdiction or power to However, until we take away the mo- review such determination." tivation which has been present, that '?(3) No officer, employee. or member of is the financial aspects of spying, we the Armed Forces of the United States or of will not be able to stop what has been any governmental entity who. while in the going on. performance of her official in u our real Job. I think. is to let every-pars- graph (1) shall be eligible for any monetary one know that no one in this country reward under this subsection. except that a will be allowed to profit from espio- if not inconsistent with this subsection. person who acts with official approval as an Wage. over source or informant, when It is This legislation will allow the confls- d erc (4) Upon motion of the United States at- un torney made at any time after conviction of not s part of that person's normal official cation of any of the "prproeeeds of the a person at a trial conducted under chapter duties to do so, may be eligible for such a sale of the spy story, that is of the spy 47 of title 10 with respect to convictions reward. himself or herself. under sections 904 (article 104). 908 (article "(4) There are suthor)?nd to be approvri- The public, I think. has a fascination 108). 906a (article 106a), and for convictions aced such sums as are necessary for the pay- under section 934 (article 134) that lncorpo- ment of rewards under this subsection with spies and espionage but infamy rate provisoes of this chapter. a court of except that no funds may be appropriated should not be the foundation for a competent jurisdiction shall, if the court de- for this purpose prior to fiscal year 1987. '- public career or for financ bd gucc ss. termines that the interest of justice so re- Mr, STEVENS. Mr. President, the I really believe that it is time for us quires, order such person to forfeit to the amendment I present to the Senate to act to prevent this type of situation United States all property described in parr addresses what I consider to be a "sera- from developing in our corsatry the ous problem that faces our Nation. the growing threat to otr naRioeal aecuri- grapoh (1) upon this the motion subsection United "States(exl) attorney made at any time after con- question and the problem surrounding ty. 1945 there have been 65 pros. viction of a defendant for a violation of this espionage. Since in violation of I introduced irres f 28 individ-. 1654 on September ecutions ot to attempt respond 1982 the FBI relating to her t f ease described in 1? of last year o for an this chapter or s?bsection (dxd) of this section. and after to that problem and that bill was uajs for espionage, 18 haae been con- mmit- d six cases use still pending. n C d _ shah. if the court determines that the inter- est of rnaloe so requires. order such defend- by that defendant. or by a transferee or . w well as that defendant. from a contract relating to the Judiciary Committee selves. the depiction of such offense in a movie. Senators L58 T, M~w The lure of money Is testing people boot, newspaper. Magazine. radio or televi- D'AIsMTO, Boars. Is-AL=. ZOOIISSZT, into espionage. It Is attracting too anon prodm'tbrr6 or live entertainment or TEURMOsD. MCCosnas.? Lsvnr, As- many people and this Prkna motiva- presentation of any kind. or from a contract Daxws. MArrxxmy. Ma==nna. and tion is sheer greed. relating to an expression of the convicted DUanIWGI- Law enforcement off' efsls responsi- person s thoughts. opinions. or emotions re- There are at least 41 cosponsors to ble for Investigating espions8! cases garding such crime. the basic bill. Unfortunately I have the common denominator in (2) An order issued under this subsection ize shall require teat the party with whom the been unable to contact all of them these cases has become the search for defendant contracts pay to the Attorney before today so I ask unanimous con- profit. To quote Bill Baker. assistant General say proceeds due the defendant sent the remainder of the list be print- director -of the FBI. "It says in the under such a contract. ed in the RacoaD at this point. KGB manual. 'Americans can be ??(3) Proceeds paid to the Attorney Genes- There being no objection, the mate- bought."' at under this subsection shall be paid into rlal was ordered to be printed in the We wean aware of the Walker the general fund of the Treasury of the RZcoxv, as follows: family spy case. We an actually fortu- "(4)As~used In this subsection. the term senators Domeaiel. Seines son' note that john and Michael Walker 'interested party' includes the defendant. Glenn. Nunn. Batch. 0111142- lest, Chaise. reached a plea bargainlag agreement. any transferee of proceeds due the defend- Gorton. Hasitn. Rudman. Goldwater. Gate. This gives us the opportunity to ant under the contract referred to in par. Bumpers, Byrd. Boschwits, Zson. Nickles, answer questions about just how sero- sa=psh a), and the person with whom the Hgtamwylb S sons. Abdnot. a ey' cum the damage done by the Walkers defendant has contracted. . so a behalf an part of proceeds received or to be received worked very hard to get the bill out of think the figures speak for them o a pending before theJudiciary victe tee for some time. It is now before res. This 4-year total is the highest rate fr- ' S for espio- I offer this amendment on my for arrest and conv who nags charges since World War II. I Senator Dgbasou l d Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 5 5 June 25, 1986 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENA. E has been. The Walkers, however, are not alone in their infamy-by any stretch of the imagination. They have been joined in the headlines recently by Ronald Pelton and the Pollards. There have been several serious cases in the last few years. The prob- lem of U.S. citizens selling off national security information is best illustrated by a few examples. Joseph Helmich was arrested on July 15. 1981. on charges of selling top secret information about a crypto- graphic system to Soviet agents. He was awarded the honorary rank of Colonel in the Soviet Army, and re- ceived $131,000. David Barnett, a former member of the CIA's Directorate of Operations. pleaded guilty on October 29. 1980. to a charge of selling classified informa- tion on CIA operations to the Soviet Union. He admitted to receiving $92,600 for this information. and may have been paid an additional amount to try and secure a staff position with the Senate or House Intelligence Com- mittees. William Hell. a former employee of Hughes Aircraft Corp.. was arrested on June 28, 1981. He was charged with espionage in connection with the sale of documents to the Polish Intelli- gence service, for which he received approximately $110.000. James D. Harper was arrested Octo- ber 15. 1983. for selling missile data to a Polish agent. Harper reportedly was paid over $250,000. He pleaded guilty to one count of espionage, and was sentenced to life imprisonment on May 14, 1984. In this sampling-which is far from exhaustive-there is a common factor which dominates each case. Theme in- dividuals were paid fairly large sums for classified information. Each of them exchanged a portion of our na- tional security for their personal gain. We all recognize that It Is time for Congress to do something about what has become a pervasive problem. This is by no means the only response I expect us to make to espionage. How- ever. I believe this to be a major step in the right direction. If we discourage individuals from selling information we remove the incentive to commit es- pionage. I propose that we use the profit motive against these perpetra- tors. This legislation would confiscate the proceeds of espionage activity, and turn the tables on spies by paying those who provide information on their activities. The tool we would create with this legislation to fight espionage is very similar to one available to drug en- forcement agents. This is very appro. priate. since the motivation to commit espionage and to deal in drugs Is very similar. In both cases, the perpetrator cares little for the consequences of his actions. The reason for being in the business is to make money-at any cost. no questions asked. It Is an em- barrasarnent to our society. It is now apparent that one of the best ways to strike at drug dealers is by taking away the profits of their business. Even though spies are in- spired by a similar desire. the amounts of money we are talking about are de- cidely smaller. At the same time. the harm being done is much greater. Drug use is a plague in this country, but espionage threatens the nation's survival. Taken as a package, I believe this proposal provides a fairly complete re- sponse to the prime motivation of espi- onage. it is carefully drafted so that It affects only those convicted of espio- nage felonies. The power to grant re- wards is carefully limited to avoid abuse and excess. This is a good piece of legislation-one that demands action now. To put it off any longer could doom this proposal as time runs short later this year. In my judgment. it is time for Con- gress to do something about this prob- lem. I think the Senate knows that I have other legislation pending which I think is sort of old fashioned, but I be- lieve spies just ought to be shot. As a matter of fact. the Senator from Ari- zona told me just now he thinks they ought to be hung using a loose rope. I do not think there to anything about our system in the United States today that infuriates me as much as the increasing tendency of Americans to spy on their own Government and to do so because of the motivation of profit. It is time for us to take a major step to discourage Individuals from selling information. and If we do so. I think we will take action to remove the in- centive to commit the espionage in the Ilrst place. As I said, this amendment would' bonfiscate the proceeds of espionage activities and turn the table on those who spy against their own country by paying individuals who provide infor- mation on the spying activities. The tool we would create with this legisla- tion to fight espionage is very similar to that we are using in the drug en- forcement area. I think the Senate is well aware of that. Mr. ANDREWS. Will the Senator yield? Mr. STEVENS. I am happy to yield. Mr. ANDREWS. I appreciate my col- league yielding and I am proud to join him in this effort because of all the kinds of heinous acts against our people. the selling-out of our.Nation's secrets for profit is perhaps the worst. You can talk about ideology, you can talk about people who disagree with what is going on within the Govern- ment, you can talk about general spying. They are all bad enough. But spying for pay for those 40 pieces of silver has absolutely no place. Mr. President. In this society of ours. Spying for profit, selling out your friends. your family, your neighbors, for a few dollars Is the worst. the most S 8427 treasonable act anyone can engage in against our people. I would hope that we would be able to put this kind of stiff regulation in wherein we would confiscate any of the profit, any of the profit from writ- ing the books or taking part in a movie later on. celebrating this great spy case or whatever it might be. Not only that, but I am totally inclined to go along with my colleague when he quotes our colleague from Arizona in saying, "These are the kinds of people who ought to be shot because there is absolutely no justification for spying. for espionage, for profit." I applaud my colleague for introduc- ing this amendment. We cosponsored the legislation. It would be my hope that the leaders of the debate of this bill will accept this amendment be- cause it Is long overdue. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. I thank the Senator from North Dakota. He has been In the forefront of those who have tried the assist to work out this legislation. I think we should mention Senator Dgnrotr. who has worked very hard to see to It that the legislation be brought to the floor. There is no question about it that we are now dealing with a different phe- nomenon in our country with this in- creased activity of espionage for money. I have introduced legislation to make certain that that kind of activi- ty, espionage for profit against our own Government. is considered trea- son. 0 1430 I consider it to be treason and I think the country believes it Is trea- son. This amendment has been care- fully drafted It does not affect those people who go out and study the ac- tivities of a convicted spy and present to the country the story of that type of activity. What it does is prevent the person who is convicted of espionage from profiting from the act and forfeit whatever that person received in con- nection with the espionage activity. There is no reason to allow them to keep their ill-gotten gains and there is no reason to allow them to sell for any purpose the story of their actions. Mr. President. I hope that the Senate will adopt this amendment. It is time for us to take this action. par- ticularly in view of the number of cases that are pending right now in which substantial sums will be re- tained by those who have been in- volved if Congress does not act. ? Mr. MURKOWSKI. Mr. President, as a member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence I am acute- ly aware of the problem of espionage against the United States. Soviet bloc intelligence services spare no effort or expense in a relentless effort to steal scientific, technical, and defense se- crets from the West. A single technical document can save Moscow years and hundreds of millions of dollars In re- Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 S 8428 0 _JNGRESSIONAL RECORD - SET,. E June 25, 1986 search and development. Super-sophis- ' United States in certain defense-relat? recognize that others could be reward. ticated U.S. intelligence systems, upon ed areas has been seriously eroded by ed for providing information that which our security depends, can be the foreign success in obtaining classi- leads to their arrest. compromised in a few minutes by a fied scientific and technical informa- I want to congratulate Senator Srt- traitor with special knowledge. Any tion. In addition, spying has cost our vzxs for his initiative, and Senator reader of the newspaper in recent country billings of dollars in stolen DzrroN, chairman of the Subcommit- weeks knows these are not hypotheti- technology and military cal possibilities. they are case histo- verse the trend, we usstere o eothe worked Sclosely an td hTem o the who ries. financial incentive for those persons Denton/Leahy substitute which We have seen the emergence of a who would assist these foreign spies b nea? hrpnA of ..... .._------ ?--------- -- -? - - - y illi ns to sell out their country This amendment will remove the fi- for cash. Spying has become a lucra- nancial incentive and will aid in the Live business. Men like Walker and battle against espionage. The amend- Whitworth apparently received hun. ment contains three separate provi- dreds of thousands of dollars for the sions. information they provided. Walker, First, it requires that convicted spies now that he has been caught, has em- forfeit all proceeds from their espio- barked on a new money-making nage activities by incorporating by ref- scheme to sell his story to a publisher. erence the forfeiture provisions con- The more notorious the author, the tamped in the Comprehensive Drug fatter the royalties. Abuse Prevention and Control Act of Why should espionage pay? It 1970, (21 U.S.C. section 853). should not, and passage of the amend- Second, It requires that any proceeds ment will make sure it does not. It is from publication or television rights to time to make it abundantly clear that the story on, or interviews of, convict- there will be no opportunity for the ed spies be forfeited (Mirroring the Walkers and their ilk to keep their ill Son-of-Sam provisions contained in 18 gotten gains. Espionage is not fun and U.S.C. section 3671); games. Anyone contemplating spying Third, It establishes a new fund to against this country must know that reward those whose information leads there will be no pot of gold at the end to the arrest or conviction of spies of the rainbow-only a very inns st.o the Senator yield for a question?. - ... Mr. STEVENS. I yield for a question to the Senator from Maryland. Mr. MATHIAS. My question arises from the so-called Son of Sam provi. sion of this amendment, which would prevent persons convicted of certain espionage offenses from profiting by writing about their crimes. It is surely a repulsive spectacle when an Individ- ual profits from the commercial ex- ploitation of his crimes against the United States, and I am in complete sympathy with the Senator's effort to divert that profit stream. Nonetheless, I am also concerned about the degree to which any "Son of Sam" provision burdens the exercise of first amend- ment rights. Am I correct in my under- standing that this amendment is rmod- wines in the Rewards for Information ?"a` ` uugre enacted in the Compre- Mr. President, the amendment of. Concerning Terrorism Act, 18 U.S.C. hensive Crime Control Act of, 1984, fered by Senator SrxvrNS is right on section 3071). and that now is codified at 18 U.S.C point. It prevents spies from taking ad- Mr. President, I am pleased that section 3671? vantage of their illegal activities, and Senator Srzvaifs has accepted, at my Mr. am offers The Senator is so STEVENS. says that spies cannot profit by receiv. suggestion, language which will make rect. I am offering this legislation Ing financial rewards from book royal. the provisions of the amendment w that the forfeiture remedies that were re ties, movie rights, and similar arrange- plicable to members of the Armed m the ade available to the Government in ments. Clearly, Mr. President, the Forces convicted of espionage pursu- of Comprehensive Crime crimes o Control Act Senate must say loud and clear that ant to the Uniform Code of Military le 1984 with respect to crimes of vio- spies cannot become "media stars" Justide, as well as those individuals lence can be used from their illegal activities. I urge my convicted under title 18 of the United a utes. against inn ape are violating cepiona of colleagues to support this Important States Code. filed espionage statutes. Mr. MA. amendment.. This amendment represents a neces- THIAS Am I also correct ?. Mr. DENTON. Mr. President, I rise sary tool in our fight against espio- that it is not the Senator's intent to in support of the amendment offered nage: I urge my colleagues to support inhibit In by my distinguished colleague from it.* any way the right of a third Alaska (Mr. Siavzxs) which ioco o- person c write or an publish viaccount rates the substance of S. 1654. The pleased to Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, I am of the crimes that a convcted spy rates t bill, which was unanimously this amendment. origin al cosppon~aof committed against the United States? approved by the Judiciary Committee apply existing Federal procedures for Mr STEVEq ore frtt Senator's a r pt rt n of 1984 on June 12. 1986, will amend title 18 forfeiture of criminal proceeds, and re- the rect. Let me "Son n U.S.C. to a provide for criminal title IS wards for informants. espionage the Judiciary of Samto legisla` n,I use of prov derived from es to- p cases. confident that it ile help clarify nage activities and rewards for infor- We have all been shocked by the the scope of the forfeiture provision orations providing Information leading wave of espionage cases that have oc- that I am offering: to arrests in espionage cases. I com. curred in the Defense Department, ? ? ? the t I amendment refers to money mend Senator STavzNs for his leader. among Defense contractors, and even payable to the defendant's "transferee." to ship in this area and I am only too In the Intelligence agencies. Perhaps rather than ? any other party." This to happy to Join as an original cosnnnrn. -I,_ .~_..-- ? U. ainenament. Mr. President, recent events sur- rounding the Walker and other espio. nage cases have made it abundantly clear that the threat of espionage is real and pervasive. The Soviet Union, Its client-states, and other hostile countries have a massive effort under. way in this country to amass large amounts of material about our mill. T he secrets foreign intelligence gathering In the United States has caused untold damage to our national security. The technological lead enjoyed by the vealed in the Walker case. Whatever other factors may have motivated John Walker to betray his country's defense secrets to the Soviet Union, his cynical attention focus primarily on the money he stood to make from his activities. This amendment squarely addresses the Ill-gotten gains from espionage and the incentive to turn in those sus- pected of this crime. It will be a useful contribution in our effort to see to it that espionage will never be seen to pay, and that those actually or con. templating spying for foreign powers Truman Capote, the author of "In Cold Blood." or other authors who have not par. ticipated in criminal conduct and who wish to depict the defendant's crime, are not af- fected by the proposed rule change. (8. Rep. No. 98-497 at A.) The "In Cold Blood" example is in- structive here, since the corresponding provision in this legislation is not in- tended to reach an Innocent third party who was not convicted of espio- nage when that third party writes or publishes an account of the events sur- rounding the espionage offense. It would apply to any proceeds due to the convicted spy or any part of the Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 June .25, 1986 , s Mr. MATHIAS. I thank the Senator from Alaska those of us in our profession under- Lion today with all the drug cases we Mr. STEVENS. Let me amplify the stand that full well. We are not seek- see. with tremendous funds being re- comments I have just had with Sena- Ing to change that. ceived by those peddling drugs. When for MArxres to emphasize again that Mr. STEVENS. I say to my friend we do apprehend them. we regain this is not any attempt to invade the from Ohio. I understand what he is some of that money. We find that the other areas of the Federal Code. Nor Is saying. I have no intention of Chang- defendant has received money and rmAl treatment of attorney- conviction there are existing Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 W w CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENATE S 8429 convicted spy's share that he has di- verted to some third person. Mr. MATHIAS. I thank the Senator from Alaska for that clarification. I have one additional question. One of the statutes covered by this amend- ment is 18 U.S.C. 793. As the Senator knows, an important case under that statute was recently concluded in my home State of Maryland. In that case. the jury convicted Samuel Morison of providing certain classified photo- graphs to Jane's Defense Weekly. I raise this point because the pros- ecution of Mr. Morison under section 793 is unprecedented, has wide-rang- ing first amendment implications, and is currently on appeal. In other words, the law in this area may be in a state of flux. Would the Senator's amend- ment have any effect an the substan- tive reach of section 793? Mr. STEVENS. It is not my intent to affect in any way the definition of the underlying offenses to which this leg- islation would apply. Thus, this legis- lation should have no impact on the Iudicial interpretation of would simply provide thet Govern- ment with the opportunity to seek an additional remedy against someone fi- nally convicted under that statute. . - discuss with my colleague from I am not trying to make ou Alaska. That has to do with the ques- for any particular individual. but my rect in the sense that we. of course, tion of the right of a defendant to colleague and I are both lawyers. I are not trying to require that-but if have legal counsel and the concern think we would both agree that a the court, following thenormalproce- that has been expressed that assumes lawyer would not be held responsible dures, would find that the attorney the individual did engage in espionage or should not be called upon to make a had knowledge of the source of the urt or it was alleged that he did and then judicial determination as to whether mone forfeiture eiof the ved. the coeys Ico he he hires counsel. As I understand it, his client is or is not guilty. orde under this provision, those funds that I think it is reasonable to assume hands of the attorney in whole or in would have been paid to counsel could that the lawyer taking the individual's part, depending on what the court de-on the bas be forfeited as well. As a consequence, case is taking it up is t in a is the not cid s under t Comprehensihe Drug es. But it Abuse and the individual might not be in a posi- assuming Is going to tion to be represented by a lawyer. He guilty" plea-that he in his mind feels Prevention and Control Act that has is not guilty until he is found guilty. that there is a chance of having the been the guide and it does. as I said, it an attempt to in any way Errc~caa~ . -- - third party from engaging in the busi- client relationship nor the right of the or television reason to bto be elieve that the money he ness of forr for g the h air for medimedia the stories of those who have receives is part of the proceeds of the been involved in these kinds of activi- crime. we do not affect Istatus. p ate ties. The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- ~~comment I ~~ it of the goes most of the way out objection. It is so ordered. Mr. STEVENS. I am pleased to to the thing about which I have con- answer any questions my colleagues cern. But let us assume for the may have. moment that the attorney were to Mr. METZENBAUM. Mr. President, know where the proceeds came from I do not think any of us would speak but that for a host of other reasons, in opposition to the amendment of the he was convinced that the defendant Senator from Alaska with respect to was not guilty. The man might have the forfeiture of funds gained from es- the money but he might not be guilty pionage or from writing relative to for any one of a number of reasons, in- that or removing pictures. I think we cluding the conceivable reason of stat- all support that concept. This lan- ute of limitations, that it was out of guage is, I think, identical with lan- the jurisdiction of the court. that guage that has been in the Judiciary there was some violation of his rights Committee for several weeks. as to how the information was ob- We have been wrestling with one tained, that there was an unlawful aspect of the problem I would like to search and seizure. t case Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 I wonder whether or not it is the defendant found not guilty. All I want intent of the author of the amend- to do is let the individual, whoever he ment to preclude the right of the de- may be-whether he is accused of the fendant to have legal counsel, even most heinous crime, and certainly es- though it very well might be that pionage has to be included in that cat- some portion of those funds would be egory-to let that individual have legal expended for legal counsel. Some counsel. Some have suggested that the thought has been given to giving the courts could appoint counsel. but I Judiciary. the Judge handling the case. think we would agree that if the indi- some discretionary authority in con- vidual had, funds. and certainly sub- nection with this subject. Would the stantial funds, it would not be reasons- Senator from Alaska care to indicate ble to expect that the court would ap- his thoughts on that subject? point counsel. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President, we I have that one reservation concern- have no intention of changing the ing the Senator's response. which indi- normal treatment of attorneys' fees in cated that if he knew the man was such circumstances. If an attorney has guilty or where the money came from. reason to know that his client is I think he has practiced law long paying him the proceeds that he has enough and I have practiced law long obtained by committing a crime, then enough to know that nobody is guilty the money in the hand of the attorney until the court has found the individ- is forfeitable. If he does not have ual guilty and that every person has reason to suspect that, then it is an- the right to have his day in court. other matter. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. we It is my understanding that this has have been in the practice of law for a been handled this way in other cir- long time, and I was the Government cumstances. it does not come up just attorney in my State for 3 years, and I in connection with this case. If a know some of these issues come up in person robs a bank and is on trial and a hard way. the lawyer who is defending that r say to the Senator from Ohio that th e mentvin any more difficult circum- received is pan of the loot from he cannot keep that. I think tances than they do in a drug situa- bank , upon statutes which allow for forfeiture. As a matter of fact, this bill. as the Sena- tor knows, is patterned after the drug statute that requires the forfeiture of the money received by the defendant who has been convicted of violating the law relating to drugs- I say to my friend that this amend- ment before us does not require a for- feiture until conviction and it puts in the hands of the court that imposes the sentence the duty to order the for- feiture to the United States of the property we have listed as being sub- ject to forfeiture. It is similar, as I said, to the drug statute. Mr. MEIZENBAUM. I know it cannot cause a forfeiture of attorneys' fees as such. That is not indicated by implication or otherwise. Am I correct in my understanding? 41 0 1440 STEVENS. The Senator is cor- Mr deal with the forfeiture of such funds that have been received and gives the authority to the court to order such other disposition of the property as it saps fir what the Senator from Ohio says is to a v right, that until conviction the attor- ney is not in any way in a position of facing a forfeiture of moneys that have come into his hands as a result of his relationship with the defendant. But if he has knowledge and it can be shown and the court decides the attor- ney had knowledge the money the de- fendant delivered to him was received from proceeds of espionage or the pro- ceeds of selling drugs, they are treated the same. It is up to the court to deter- mine what should be forfeited under this statute. Mr. ME17ENBAUM. Is it my under- standing that the amendment of the Senator from Alaska is intended to be interpreted in the same manner the courts have Interpreted the drug-relat- ed cases? Mr. STEVENS. That is correct. Mr. METL>E.:NBAUM. I have no fur- ther questions, Mr. President. Mr. LUGAR. Mr. President, as a co- sponsor of the amendment. I certainly commend the distinguished Senator from Alaska for a very important amendment On our side, we are pre- pared to accept the amendment. Mr. PELL Mr. President. the collo- quy between the Senator from Alaska and the Senator from Ohio cleared up one of the problems that might have been with us in approving this amend- ment. We think it Is a good amend- ment and. as far as I know on my side. there is no objection to it. I recom- mend we go forward. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there further debate? If not the ques- tion is on agreeing to the amendment The amendment (No. 2184) was agreed to. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. I move to reconsider the vote by which the amendment was agreed to. Mr. LUGAR. I move to lay that motion on the table. The motion to lay on the table was agreed to. Mr. STEVENS. Mr. President. I thank the Senator from Indiana and the Senator from Rhode Island. I ap- preciate the contribution the Senator from Ohio has made to the legislative history on this amendment. Mr. LUGAR. I thank the Senator. Mr. President I suggest the absence of a quorum. The assistant legislative clerk pro- ceeded to call the rolL 01460 Mr. LUOAR. Mr. President I ask unanimous cooaent that tbo order f the quorum call be rescinded. The PRzSMINO OFFICER. With- out oblectio4 It If ao ordered. Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENATE to that volved wt Bend and support in his sizable city, a in which indepe their lot with peo Mr. President. of intelligence. Ve work in behalf of State of Indians? he qualities which have support in our State support from many been. I have noticed, paign- of persons who date the nature of the Is being made. In short. courts and for Issues that consider. persuaded that persons are sit conservative or too liberal but. are talking about specific op that have been written. We are about specific activities as part illative and administrative abiliti that those who are attempting ? matter of fact. Dan Manion Is a v competent human being, a very c petent public servant. a person, I lieve, of extraordinary force as he presented conservative ideas in - State legislature---some of them ado ed. Some of them not. Clearly, he acquitted himself well. I know of . one In Hoosier politics who ev well in public life and with public issues. demonstrated to very strong ma around on. e there has Lionel cam- not so well Cq0n. I appre- ent that persons that Dan some be-~ for the be might MANION take a moment to express the lss a Hoosier, which means a real- this high June 25, 1986 and that Is basic fairness to a ee. a nominee for a very impor- believe that Mr. Manion that legal scholars have through the years to try for the particu- Republicans or fairness. They at the man or ee: the Presi- nomination; nomination. will prevail ng vote Dan Manion as our constituen look forward to making a strong caft on the merits for this nominee. the n i- ^ 1500 Mr. President. I suggest the absence of a quorum. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will call the rolL The legislative clerk proceeded to call the roll. ^ 1510 Mr. MATHIAS. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the order for the quorum call be rescinded. The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. McCoimzu.). Without objection. It is so ordered. AamfD T No. 2186 Mr. MATHIAS. Mr. President. I send an amendment to the desk and ask for its immediate consideration. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report. The legislative clerk read as follows: The Senator from Maryland (Mr. MA- TmAS] Proposes an amendment numbered 2185. W. MATHIAS. Mr. President. I ask unanimous consent that further read- Ing of the amendment be dispensed with. The PRESIDING OFFICER. With- out Objection, It is so ordered. The amendment reads as follows: At the appropriate place Insert the follow- ins: Approved For Release 2011/03/15: CIA-RDP87B00858R000300420011-5