SPIES: DISCUSSION BY BAMFORD AND ROSITZKE

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000100420004-5
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 13, 2007
• Sequence Number: 4
• Publication Date: October 28, 1982
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
RADIO N REPORTS, ~N~.
4701 WILLARD AVENUE, CHEVY CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 656-4068
Fort PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
STATION WJLA-TV
ABC Network
DATE October 26, 1982 12:00 Midnig CITY Washington, D.C.
SUBJECT Spies: Discussion by Bamford and Rositzke
GREG JACKSON: Get your questions ready, 'cause we'll be
talking next about spies.
JACKSON: Listen, before we rush on, let me say just a
word about the phones. We've just -- we're flooded with calls
and we'd like to take as many as we can....
Now, for the moment, spy stories, as you know, have been
all over the news lately, especially the arrest of that British
spy Geoffrey Arthur Prime, who may have given the Russians more
American and British secrets than any spy in at least 20 years.
Now, meet a spymaster, in Washington, Harry Rositzke, a
CIA operative for 25 years, most of them spent nose-to-nose
against the Russians. You'll talk to him.
Also, in Pittsburgh, James Bamford, author of the book.
"The Puzzle Palace," about America's super-secret intelligence
body, the National Security Agency.
Now, Mr. Rositzke, we've all read James Bond. The world
of the spy seems so glamorous. Is that true?
HARRY ROSITZKE: The world of the spy is probably the
most quiet and inconspicuous world you could imagine. People
like Bond probably couldn't operate for more than a day or so
because the local cops would be right on him.
The actual process of meeting a man secretly and also of
getting to know him enough to recruit him as an agent has to be
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
done with nobody else aware of it. Because if anybody knows
anything is going on, that's the end of the spy. That's the end
of the operation.
JACKSON: Well, sure.
How do we get spies? I couldn't help but notice -- and
I know you've seen this advertisement -- and we have the CIA
taking out classified ads. Have you seen the ad?
ROSITZKE: I have. But the people who are recruited by
CIA, which is a rather large organization, are, for the most
part, people who are going to do research work, statistics works,
communications work, etcetera. And even those who go on to the
operations end aren't spies. They are case officers. It's their
jab to go overseas and recruit spies on behalf of the U.S.
Government.
JACKSON: I get your point there. I mean when you're a
spy, what you're really doing is running the nationals in
whatever foreign country you work in.
ROSITZKE: That's right. And the main point is that
those people in Washington who are going to go overseas, they try
to keep their affiliation with CIA secret. So when they go
overseas, people don't say, "Ah, yes. You're from CIA."
Most of the people in CIA could perfectly well say, "I
work in CIA."
JACKSON: There is always the technology. As you know,
today it seems like the human element is disappearing. At least
what you read.
Mr. Bamford, in Pittsburgh. Your book "The Puzzle
Palace," can you just tell us very briefly about the technology
in modern-day spying?
JAMES BAMFORD: Yes. The technology is very, very
advanced. The major. technological agency is the National
Security Agency. It's America's most secret agency, and also its
largest spy agency. The Senate Intelligence Committee, in 1975,
said that the CIA represents less than ten percent of the
American intelligence capability. The largest and most
influential member was the National Security Agency.
What they do is they monitor communications, they pick
up signals that go through the air, the telephone calls,
telegrams, telex messages, messages between Soviet aircraft and
bases, Soviet military bases and their units in the field, that
type of information. In addition, there are satellites in the
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
sky between a hundred miles up and 22,000 miles up that pick up
signals, communications signals, and also take photographs that
have a resolution down to six inches.
JACKSON: You know, it would seem to me, with all of
that technology, but really there's got to be a human looking at
it all. Somewhere I read that agency generates 40 tons of
documents a day. Could that possibly be true?
BAMFORD: Well, it is true. That was the result of a
congressional committee that that figure came out. In addition,
I think it was the General Accounting Office did a study of the
National Security Agency. They actually studied all the
intelligence agencies and tried to determine how many classified
documents were produced each year by each agency. And they got a
figure from each agency. And when they came to the NSA, the
National Security Agency, they virtually just threw up their
hands because they couldn't come to an accurate figure. They
just estimated that it was somewhere -- that the NSA classified
somewhere between 50 and 100 million documents a year. And they
said that that was a greater number than all the other documents
in all the other agencies, the CIA, the Pentagon, the State
Department, and all other agencies put together.
JACKSON: Okay. Now I'd like to go to the phones, put
your on the air. You're talking to a former spy in Washington.
MAN: This question is directed to the representative
from the CIA.
Sir, you may have answered this question already, but
I'll ask it anyway. Is the CIA actively engaged in recruiting
men and women for the purposes of conducting covert operations
designed not to gather intelligence, but rather to influence the
course of political events in foreign countries?
ROSITZKE: It's my impression that in the last ten
years, or at least certainly in the last eight years, the CIA has
concentrated more and more on espionage work. As you know, in
the mid-seventies a great many criticisms were leveled at its
covert operations, its paramilitary and political operations.
But my impression is they still have a capability for political
opeations, which would in effect mean they could take political
action in any country in which the President thought it might be
desirable.
JACKSON: Mr. Rositzke, may I just jump in here a
minute? What is a spymaster? We asked that we call you that.
ROSITZKE: Well, I tell you, the trouble with the usual
reference to CIA operators as spies is it confuses the whole
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
issue. The spy doesn't go abroad to recruit a spy. The spy is
always a foreign national. In our own terminology, we refer to
ourselves as case officers, operations officers, whose job it is
to recruit a spy.
JACKSON: Okay.
ROSITZKE: So the spymaster is pretty colloquial, but at
least it differentiates between a spy and the master who recruits
him.
JACKSON: Okay. I understand.
Now let's go to the phones.
MAN: I'd like to know, to the former CIA agent, does
the CIA need more freedom from controls to be more effective?
ROSITZKE: I'll have to hear that again.
JACKSON: The caller's saying, are you shackled? Is the
CIA -- are there too many regulations surrounding it?
ROSITZKE: Well, that was the impression, I think, that
was gained in the late '70s. But the impression I get from the
people I know -- and that is, CIA is able to do all those things
it's supposed to do, and that the restrictions are really very,
very minor.
JACKSON: Okay. One more call.
MAN: I've always heard it said that we spy, you spy, it
all comes out in the balance. And I was just wondering, is the
balance equal?
ROSITZKE: I'd like Mr. Bamford to answer that.
What about the Russians? We have all these antennas.
Mr. Bamford?
BAMFORD: Yes, they have their share. As a matter of
fact, one of the major Russian listening posts is in Cuba. From
Cuba, the Russians can pick up virtually all the international
communications entering and leaving the United States every day.
In addition, the Russians have listening posts in Eastern Europe
listening on Western Europe and so forth. So it's pretty much an
equal draw.
JACKSON: Okay. If you two gentlemen will stay right
there, we'll be right back with more questions.
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
JACKSON: We're talking about the world of spying. Our
guests, former CIA spymaster Harry Rositzke and author James
Bamford.
Both of you are Americans, and I don't want to put you
on the spot. But just let me ask it straight out. What country
in the world has the best espionage system?
ROSITZKE: You have to measure by the job given to the
espionage service. And in terms of what the KGB does for Moscow,
there's not much question it is the most efficient espionage
system in the world, even though one has to allow for the high
quality of something like the Israeli service, which has much
more limited purposes.
BAMFORD: Well, I think, depending on which technology
you're talking about, I think the United States is far superior
to the Soviet Union in satellite and computer technology. And
those are the main ingredients in making and breaking codes and
eavesdropping. So I think the United States comes out a bit
ahead in that department.
In terms of human intelligence, I think Mr. Rositzke
could probably answer better on that question.
JACKSON: Okay. But let me go to the phones and see.
MAN: ...Does the CIA have its own military force, or
does it borrow from each of the services, the Navy, Marines,
Army, whatever?
ROSITZKE: I'll need that again, too.
JACKSON: He's asking if the CIA has, actually, its own
secret army, so to speak.
ROSITZKE: The CIA, so far as I know, over these years,
has never had its own secret army. It has had for about 25 years
the capacity to train what we call paramilitary personnel in
operations. But the CIA itself neither has an army nor a secret
army.
JACKSON: Let me ask you this, sir, while I have you.
Why are the Russians so successful -- at least there in England,
it seems -- in planting these so-called moles, spies that go
underground and stay there 10-15 years? Do we have the same
thing that's just not as publicized?
ROSITZKE: We don't have that same capacity. You
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
realize, for example, there are 300 KCB officers in New York
right now. There are over 200 in Paris and London. Their job is
to spend all the time they can getting to meet what they call
purposeful acquaintances, people that they might cultivate and
who already are in a job with access to classified material.
JACKSON: And that just might be the price of a free and
ROSITZKE: That's right. We cannot do that in Moscow,
Prague, or Warsaw.
JACKSON: Let me go to the phones.
MAN: This is for James Bamford. I was wondering how
the NSA goes about recruiting their members.
BAMFORD: Well, they recruit on college campuses. They
have a big recruiting facility at Fort Meade in Maryland. That's
the NSA headquarters. In addition, they have a recruiting office
in Boston and a recruiting office in Atlanta, Georgia. Those are
the only two recruiting offices outside of Maryland. But they
recruit from a lot of engineering colleges, and they want
mathematicians and electronic engineers and people who are fluent
in exotic languages. It's a very technical-oriented agency and
they look very much for engineers.
JACKSON: Sir, may I ask you this? Are they up front
when they approach a college kid? Do they say, "Look, we're
recruiting spies"?
BAMFORD: Well, I saw a number of their brochures. The
brochures didn't tell anything about the agency in terms of the
fact that it did espionage. It's changed a little bit in the
past year or so. But what the brochure would say will be that
the NSA protects American communications, which is one of its
functions, but not its prime function. Its prime function is --
its largest function is eavesdropping. And it makes no reference
of that.
I think they've changed it just in the past year or so.
JACKSON: Okay. If you'll both wait right there, we're
going to go to a commercial, and we'll be right back.
JACKSON: You are talking to experts on spying. On the
left there, Harry Rositzke in Washington, a former CIA agent and
spymaster. On the right, James Bamford in Pittsburgh, probably
knows as much about the National Security Agency as any writer in
the country today.
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
7
Let's go to the phones. You're talking to the spy
experts.
MAN: My question is, isn't it true that books by
ex-agents and programs like this overglamorize the spy business,
and it's really a lot of basic collecting of files and reading
newspapers and manuals?
JACKSON: That's a good question.
Mr. Bamford, do you have any reservations about
revealing the information you did? I understand the government
isn't too happy with your work.
BAMFORD: Well, that's an understatement, I think.
I have no reservations about it. My research was
entirely in the public domain. I obtained information under the
Freedom of Information Act, going through congressional
documents, interviewing former senior NSA officials. And I
didn't have any secret co-conspirator handing me documents out
the back door.
JACKSON: Sir, let me ask you this question. Right now,
would you publish the name of an agent?
BAMFORD: I would publish the name of an NSA employee.
I don't consider him an agent. And my book is full of the names
of NSA people. The NSA has never really considered their
employees to be covert agents. They're technicians. So I've
never really had any compunction of not publishing that.
JACKSON: Mr. Rositzke, let's get to this subject. As
you know, journalists have published names. However, in reading
more, I understand it hasn't caused the physical harm that we
thought in as many cases.
ROSITZKE: Well, over the years -- and when we talk
about agents, I mean foreigners who are working for us -- there
have been seven occasions in which at least their identity in
general, if not their names, have been placed in newspapers.
That is the worst crime anybody can commit.
Now, there is a new law now where anybody who divulges
the names of case officers, of CIA personnel overseas, with
malice, with the purpose of seeing to it that their efficiency,
or perhaps even their lives, are affected, that's now a felony.
But in general, I would say that the exposues,
particularly of the last ten years, have stopped short of
endangering anybody else's life.
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
 Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5
8
JACKSON: Okay. I'd like to go to the phones. You're
talking to an expert on spying.
MAN: I'd like to know if, from Mr. [unintelligible], if
they think the CIA actually gets more and better information
today through the technology than it did many years ago without
it.
BAMFORD: Yes, it definitely gets more and better
information. Before, if you wanted to find out if they were
building new submarines in Vladivostok, you would have to recruit
an agent to go there, photograph it with a Minox camera, and try
to get the information back. Today you can have a satellite that
flies over there three times a day photographing all the new
equipment being put on the submarine. So you get a great deal of
information.
The problem i.s that a lot of times there is too much
information, and it takes human beings to have to sift through
that information. So you might find out .about a new Middle East
war, but it might be two days after the war started when you find
out about it.
JACKSON: Mr. Rositzke, you really -- is it fair to say
you really kind of come from the old school of human-to-human
spies? What do you think of all this new technology?
ROSITZKE: Well, the espionage service, the American
intelligence service part of CIA is strictly a human-intelligence
profession. And in the course of the years, the basic aims have
changed as information from other sources, particularly
technology, satellites, etcetera, have come through.
Thirty years ago I had to get trained men, Lithuanians,
Ukrainians and Russians, sent by air into the Soviet Union to
determine whether or not they were preparing a military action
against us. Today, after all the satellites, before that the
U-2, today we can keep track of what's going on physically inside
the Soviet Union almost every minute of the day.
So, to me, that is the greatest advance, and it's taken
a great burden off the human operators, who now have to get into
things like foreign office files, military research laboratories
in the Soviet Union, into the foreign intelligence services
working against us. So our focus is narrower, but follows
exactly the same techniques that have been used for a hundred
years.
JACKSON: All right. Both of you, thank you so much.
Approved For Release 2007/03/14 :CIA-RDP88-010708000100420004-5