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February 4, 1983
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Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-010708000100550001-4 4 February 1983 SUBJECT: Available Transcriptions of Broadcasts We have on file the following transcriptions oladcasts. If you need to see them, please notify us on extension u and we will make them available to you. 28 December, 8:00 PM, C-SPAN, PRESS CONFERENCE: Ambassador Zdzislaw Rurarz,former Polish Ambassador to Japan. 20 January, 4:10 PM, WMCA Radio (NY), THE BOB GRANT SHOW, Interview with Admiral Bobby Inman. 29 January, 9:05 AN, WNUR Radio (MA), ON THE AGENDA, Interview with John Loftus, author of "The Belarus Secret" STAT STAT Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA R[1P R-n~n~nRnnn~nn55nnn~-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 RADIO N REPORTS, INC. 4701 WILLARD AVENUE, CHEW CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 656-4068 Press Conference: Ambassador Zdzislaw Rurarz DATE December 28, 1982 8:00 P.M. CITY Washington, DC WILLIAM GILL: If any of you didn't get the press release or the Ambassador's statement, we have some, I believe, both at the door and up here. So you can come up and get it. I am William Gill, a friend of the Ambassador's. And on Saturday morning I picked up the Washington Post and I found a two-paragraph notice on the run-over page for the story on Poland that morning that ex-Ambassador Rurarz, now in the U.S., receives death sentence in absentia. I immediately thought that something ought to be done to at least write a little insurance policy, perhaps, on the Ambassador's life. And so I called him, and we got our friends at the Council for the Defense of Freedom, and they agreed to cooperate with us in this press conference this morning. The Ambassador has a statement to make, and then it will be open to questions. AMBASSADOR ZDZISLAW RURARZ: Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Gill. On December 17, 1982, the military tribunal in Warsaw passed.on me a death sentence in absentia for allegedly committing high treason. The real treason, of course, is the treason that General Jaruzelski and his junta committed against Poland and our people when they proclaimed martial law a year ago and proceeded to suppress the free trade union movement Solidarity. Actually, what Jaruzelski's junta did was to declare war against the Polish people, a war that the world knows was instigated by the Soviet Union. At the time this war was OFFICES IN: WASHINGTON D.C. ? NEW YORK ? LOS ANGELES ? CHICAGO 0 DETROIT ? AND OTHER PRINCIPAL CITIES Material supplied by Radio N Reports, Inc. may be used for file and reference purposes only. It may not be reproduced, sold or publicly demonstrated or exhibited. Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 declared against Poland, I was representing the Polish People's Republic in the capacity of its ambassador to Japan. I decided to discontinue my service to that government and seek political asylum in the United States because I could not participate in the war against my own nation. This is what the junta calls treason and this is why they have now sentenced me to death. I do not take this sentence lightly. There have been many examples over the years of death sentences being carried out in other countries against exiles from communism. The murder of Leon Trotsky in Mexico was not the first such example, and there have been many since. The assassination attempt in Rome last year on Pope John Paul II may well have been the result of a secret death sentence pronounced against him by the Soviet KGB, the criminal conspiracy that suppresses the Russian people, as well as the people of Poland and of all other countries under Soviet control. Certainly, the evidence unearthed thus far by the Italian authorities strongly indicates a close connection between the Turkish assassin Agca and the Bulgarian arm of the KGB. Indeed, according to the article published in the Washington Post on Sunday, Italian judicial sources now say, and I quote from The Post, the story of Bulgarian participation in the attack came from Agca, who is serving a life sentence in a central Italian prison for shooting the Pope. As an officer of the Polish People's Republic, I hoped for years that the communist system could be reformed and that eventually the KGB would be forced to loosen its iron grip on the Russian people and on the peoples of the other countries under Soviet domination. But when the Jaruzelski regime, at the behest of the U.S.S.R., declared war on my country and on my people last December, I concluded that it is impossible to reform the communist system. The events in Poland since then have confirmed that this conclusion was correct. The lifting of martial law in Poland this past week is a mirage concocted by the junta and their KGB bosses to fool the West. Both Poland and the Soviet Union are in desperate need of more trade, of more foreign exchange to rescue their faltering economies and sustain the Soviet military buildup. I spent most of my career in the international trade arena, and I know how important, indeed how absolutely necessary trade with the West is to the communist bloc. Without it, quite simply, they could not sustain their economies, and they certainly could not continue to support the Soviet armament drive. The death sentence passed on me that I made the right Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550001-4 decision -- proves that I made the right decision when I asked for political asylum in the United States a year ago. That sentence will not deter me in my efforts to unmask the true image of the U.S.S.R. and of the traitorous junta it has imposed upon Poland. In fact, I pledge to my fellow Poles that I will work all the harder to help them reveal to the world the true charac- ter of the terrorist regime which the Soviet Union has clamped upon them. The shame that General Jaruzelski and his junta has inflicted on our Polish soldiers must be washed away. And it is my firm belief that in time it will be washed away. Poland is not lost. Freedom will live again in Poland. But if the West weakens in its resolve to support the Polish people against their oppressors, the restoration of freedom can only be delayed. I fervently hope, as virtually all Poles hope, that the West, with the leadership of the United States, will not waver in supporting the natural aspirations of our people. Thank you for your attention. GILL: Open the questions. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, we noticed the security agents around the room. Are these your private agents, or is the government supplying these for you? RURARZ: Well, it is the government which is supplying me with the security. MAN: Are these Secret Service agents, or what security arm do they come from? RURARZ: Well, I don't know. From governmental agencies, I believe. MAN: Well, the Department of Agriculture? The National Park Service? What agency? Would one of them like to respond? RURARZ: Well, I think you are familiar what agencies are doing the job of this kind. Well, I am not familiar with certain intimate organizations of your Secret Service. MAN: Maybe Mr. Gill can help us, if these gentlemen don't want to... GILL: I'd like to get on to more a serious subject than who the agents are. I don't think that's what we came for. Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 MAN: Mr. Ambassador, you referred to the -- you referred to the possible sentence on the Pope passed by the KGB. Do you think that it was just the KGB that was behind, or does it have to go higher than Mr. Andropov himself at that time to decide upon the murder of the Pope? RURARZ: Well, I have never had any slightest doubt. When I for the first time learned about the attempt on the Pope's life in Tokyo, I immediately was led to believe that the Soviets were behind. And when it comes to the Bulgarian connection, I think it would be of interest to you if I would reveal the following story, which could indirectly answer your question. Last year, in January, before going to Japan, I was making a tour of Africa. And inter alia, I visited also Nigeria, Lagos. And I went to a friend of mine, Polish Ambassador Vitold Rurarsh (?), whose name is a bit similar to mine, who was living in the embassy compound. And he told me that a few days before I came, his embassy was robbed by some thieves. And when he complained to the Bulgarian Ambassador about the act, the Bulgarian Ambassador provided him immediately with the gun. And he was even showing me that nine millimeter Browning gun. I later even spoke to this Ambassador Alexandrov, who is the brother of Vice Premier, Bulgarian Vice Premier Ukanov (?). So that the very fact that the Bulgarian ambassadors are freely distributing the guns is something, I believe. I was [unintelligible] ambassador. And believe me, I neither had the gun nor I was distributing them. So that I believe that this Bulgarian connection and all these assassinations attempt, and so on, are certainly decided on the political level. I believe that it was the Politburo in the U.S.S.R. which decided to kill the Polish Pope. And it was almost carried out. MAN: You've been in this country now for a year. Does it surprise you that the American press has downplayed this story, have put it generally on the inside pages? Do you think... RURARZ: Well, I think that many people here still want to believe that the Soviets are something different than they are. I, myself, can say I know the Soviets. I have been more than 50 times in the U.S.S.R. I speak as fluently Russian as Polish. I was in the Soviet [unintelligible] think tank. I have very intimate knowledge of various Soviet strategies and tactics. And I do not have any slightest doubt that the Soviet intentions are the worst ones. Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4_ Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 This, by the way, led me also to the defection. Not only the very declaration of the martial law in Poland, but I was thinking about joining the forces with the West sometime ago before, because I was very much aware of what the Soviets are preparing against the West. And may I say at this juncture that I, myself, in the past was high-ranking military intelligence officer, and I was quite aware of what the war preparations by the Soviets against the West are. Still, however, many people here believe that there is something to the contrary. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, what do you think the U.S. should do about the sanctions? RURARZ: Against whom, by the way? MAN: Against Poland. RURARZ: Well, I think that they should continue, because there should be no rewarding of certain acts as those committed against the Polish nation. And if at that time the United States would withdraw certain sanctions, it will be a wrong signal to the Polish nation. By the way, the Polish nation is the only nation right now which is supporting the sanctions against itself. But we will survive even those sanctions. However, the people will not waver in their resistance to Jaruzelski and to the Soviet domination. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, a two-part question. Number one, do you have any close family still in Poland? And number two, do you have any trepidations or concern about reprisals taken against them in order to get to you? RURARZ: Yes. I have the close family. I have the mother, mother-in-law, brother, brother-in-law, and two sisters. I do not have any contact with them. And I must say that I am prepared for the acts of this sort you have in mind. Or probably they have been already taken. I don't have the contact. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, what future role do you see for Lech Walesa and the Solidarity trade union movement? RURARZ: Well, I think I should repeat what many of you maybe have not known about that what I was saying upon my defection. Right after Solidarity was created in Poland, due to my connections, I was told by one of the Politburo members -- I Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 still would not like to reveal his name because he's still the Politburo member -- that the Soviets did not agree to the establishment of Solidarity, and they agreed only under two conditions: that either very soon the Polish government would have a total control over this Solidarity movement and the other democratic organizations, or it would be obliged to do away at the proper moment. Since the control was out of the question, so the only solution was to suppress the existence of Solidarity and of other democratic organizations. What was done? And as I declared before the congressional commission a year ago, I, myself, received, as the Ambassador in Tokyo, in March, after the so-called Bydgoszcz provocation, the cable, urgent cable from Warsaw stating to me that if the general strike materializes because of this Bydgoszcz preparation, there will be the state of war in Poland. And afterwards, when I was in June in Poland, of the last year, there were very mixed signals. But I knew that the preparations for the state of war were going on. And by the way, and I don't think the Soviets have changed their mind. Solidarity was dissolved and will continue to be dissolved. Certainly it will exist in the underground. What is the role and the future of Lech Walesa? I am very much concerned about his future. Even during the so-called Gierek era, which was a golden age in Poland, many of the trade union activists, those who were active in December 1970 and January 1971 in the strikes, mysteriously died. Many of them. Walesa could be -- I wouldn't like to speculate -- also a victim like that. That is no joke. MAN: In your statement, you talk about death sentences being carried out in other countries against exiles from communism. Has there been any threats since you've been here on your life? RURARZ: Well, there are the efforts to locate me. And certainly I must be prepared at -- they would like to make a point of that. Because otherwise any of their followers, like me, could be even encouraged if the verdicts of this kind are somehow unsuccessful. So that there certainly will be the efforts to make good the verdict. There is no doubt about that. But we shall see how it will work. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, would you elaborate on your comment about Walesa? You're very much concerned about him. What do you mean by that? RURARZ: Well, he could not only be arrested or Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-010708000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 detained in any ways, as recently the case was, but there are thousands of ways of doing away with a person physically. May I just say that you know Walesa's name because he was famous in Gdansk. But another man who was not less famous, it was Jurczich (?), who is still under detention. His children mysteriously jumped through the window and fell to their deaths. That was that. And the Bishop Kluze (?) of Gdansk, who is the friend of Walesa, was recently driving the car, Polish-made Fiat 125, and the brakes were mysterously blocked and he [unintelligible] deaths. Well, I wouldn't like to speculate. I wish Walesa all Here is the picture when Walesa came to Japan. Contrary to the instructions of my government, I made a big reception for him. And he's here, and my wife and me. So that I somehow have a personal approach to... MAN: What is the other photo? RURARZ: The other photo is with the Pope, also in Tokyo. And he was congratulate me, by the way, last year on my 51st birthday. So that I am very much concerned. There is, as I said, no jokes in that system. I know it only too well. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, the Italian government has warned that they will try to protect the integrity of their territory against the operations, covert operations of Bulgarian intelligence. Would it be helpful to you and to Ambassador Spasowski (?), who's also under a death sentence, if the United States Government would issue a warning to the Polish government that it would not tolerate or would be prepared to react if they should try to do here what the Bulgarians were doing in Italy? RURARZ: Well, I cannot suggest anything to the U.S. Government. I am very much grateful... RURARZ: Well, I think that this is not only the challenge against me, but against the host country as well. Because if somebody is trying to carry out his would-be laws in another country, it is some sort of the act of aggression against other countries -- against other country and against its laws. I Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550001-4 understand this. Whether the same is understood by the government of the host country, it is of course not for me to speculate on that. MAN: Did you ever receive any official information that the Russians would actually invade Poland? Were they on the verge of invading Poland? RURARZ: Well, I have heard that information. In early in December of 1980, there was a meeting in Moscow of Warsaw Pact countries in which also participated the ministers of national defenses of Warsaw Pact countries and some ministers from the so-called KGBs or their equivalents. And at that time, the discussion of military Soviet intervention in Poland took place. And as far as I know -- and I knew this from very reliable sources -- Andropov, who at that time was the head of the Soviet KGB, ws the first one to recommend the military intervention against Poland. And Yipichev (?), a political commissar of the Red Army, was the second one. Honecker of Eastern Germany was the third one. Brezhnev, at that time, was hesitating. And therefore, what I cannot forgive Jaruzelski is that he -- well, I don't know whether he yielded to the Soviet pressure. Maybe he, himself, rather wanted that kind of state of war which he introduced. But I believe that for the Soviets, in case of the organized resistance by the Polish Army, the price could be too high, and they were hesitating. And afterwards, when I was in Moscow law year, also in June, I knew, in Moscow and in Warsaw, that the Soviets actually had three staffs prepared for the intervention in Poland. One was in Wulf (?), near the Polish frontier. The second one was in Legnica in western-southern Poland, where there is the headquarters of the Soviet Army Group North, so-called. And the third one was in Warsaw. But the Soviets could not, could not muster enough force to intervene in Poland at that time. They believed that, as far as I know, that the suppression of the Polish Army and of the resistance movement would involve at least one million soldiers of the Red Army, and they didn't have that many [unintelligible] at that time. So that they were pressing Jaruzelski to do this dirty job what he did. MAN: The Italian Minister of Defense said that the attempt on the Pope's life was an alternative to the invasion of Poland. Do you agree with that? Do you think that's plausible? RURARZ: I think so. I think so. The very fact that Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 the Pope visited Poland in 1979 and he somehow mobilized morally the Poles. The Poles, for the first time in the postwar period, saw how strong they were. There were millions of them, extremely well-disciplined. Besides, the Pope conveyed the message to them that if any changes -- and the change, by the way, was already around the corner in Poland -- should be peaceful. And this very fact somehow influenced this course of events in Poland. And they were afraid -- I mean the Soviets -- that the Pope has remained the spiritual leader of that movement in Poland, of Solidarity and of other, due to his moral influence in Poland and his international stature, that he was the shield protecting that Polish democratization movement or process, as we're calling that. So elimination of the Pope could have been interpreted by many of the Poles that the situation was reversed, that now they are somehow left without a spiritual leader. So that the assassination of the Pope, I think, was something which was worth of risking for the Soviets. And they were very close, by the way, to the success of that attempt. MAN: ...Mr. Walesa's visit to Tokyo. I wonder if you had an opportunity to warn Mr. Walesa about possible martial law. RURARZ: Yes. I spoke with him eyeball-to-eyeball. I have even the picture, not along with me. And I told him whether he was prepared for the worst. He told me, "Yes. I was prepared -- I am prepared for the worst. But I will continue to stay this way." And he did. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, if you believe the attempted assassination was a death sentence pronounced by the KGB, by extension you must be blaming Mr. Andropov. RURARZ: Yes. Certainly yes. The special services of the Eastern countries are extremely disciplined, extremely centralized, and there cannot be any initiative on someone's hand. There must be the decision of the highest authorities. And I have not slightest doubt that this was that. And may I say at this moment that the war waged by the U.S.S.R. against Poland is, of course, having a long history. And whatever the Soviets could do to eliminate certain of eminent Poles, they were doing, starting with Kattin (?) and ending with the Pope, and I don't know with whom else. MAN: Would you disagree, then, with the New York Times editorial of last Saturday which said that this may have been Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 done by private parties in Bulgaria... RURARZ: No. MAN: ...or by an ambiguous signal that was misunderstood by somebody? RURARZ: I rule out that absolutely as a possibility. I RURARZ: I have the intimate knowledge of how these things are being done. Everything is being meticulously prepared. Everything is being meticulously discussed, and then so on. And then afterwards, all the instructions and all the orders are very, very well prepared. No, no, no. It is a different kind of business over MAN: Do you have any further comments on the effects of American sanctions on Polish trade and what the effects might be if those were lifted? RURARZ: Well, the Polish trade is now in a very poor shape. And right now, the share of the Western countries in Poland's total trade fell to one-fourth only, whereas a couple years ago it was -- the share was half of Poland's total trade. And without fresh credits and rescheduling on favorable terms, Poland certainly will be unable to catch up with previous growth, and the difficulties will continue. By the way, the profile of that credit, and even the terms on which the debt is rescheduled, suggests that Poland can be repaying the debt over maybe 25 years, between three and four billion dollars a year; whereas the hard-currency earnings this year will be only for about five billion dollars. So you can easily imagine what the situation is. And it was believed that probably the Soviets and the other Eastern European countries would come to the rescue of Poland, but this is really not the case. So that all this brunt is being borne by the Polish nation. And, of course, this is creating a very tense situation. And this economic situation will be fueling the crisis in Poland for a long, long time. So we have to expect another series of explosions in Poland. MAN: Have you perceived any modification in the Pope's behavior since he was shot? Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 RURARZ: Well, I have the impression that he's weaker, quite simply, physically. I don't think that he has recovered in full, and I have the impression that probably not only the events in Poland have, in a sense, depressed him, but very likely he's physically weaker. So that it has been not without effect, this even unsuccessful attempt. MAN: Mr. Ambassador, what have you been doing for the last year to earn your living? What are your plans for the future? RURARZ: Well, I am addressing various audiences, giving various interviews, staying close to the events in Poland, in the sense that reading a lot the Polish newspapers and so on, writing a book. Maybe one day it will be on the print. And that's that. And what I will be doing in the near future, well, I'm an economist by training. What I should like to do is to teach economics and to participate in some research concerning the communist economies. MAN: Do you think that the Catholic Church in Poland has become more conciliatory toward the government in the last six months or so than it was earlier? And if so, why might this be the case? RURARZ: Yes. Well, I think that the Catholic Church is a very vast term in Poland because you have over 95, I believe, percent of the Polish population, which is more than 36 million, who are the Catholics. And you have 35,000 Polish priests and several bishops and the [unintelligible], as we call. Certainly the church is facing an agonizing dilemma, because many people in Poland, especially, the young, are itching for an activist resistance. The church has a long view and believes, or at least some in the church believe that for the time being it would be probably better to continue with the passive resistance and to wait for the better times, because otherwise it could be a terrible bloodshed. And since in the last war we were facing the extinction of the Polish nation, and so that they are afraid that it could be repeated once again by the Soviets. [Cassete turned] RURARZ: ...taking a rather more moderate stand than many Poles do. For how long this will last, I don't know. Because many people in Poland are, I believe, itching for more active resistance to what is happening right now in the country. Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4 Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550001-4 MAN: Do you think that some economic reforms, some liberalization in the economy is like -- you know, Yugoslavia- like model is possible now in Poland? RURARZ: No. Out of the question. I very closely follow the results of the would-be reform. First of all, that reform came at the worst possible moment. That's the first thing. Secondly, it's very, very much ambiguous. Thirdly, because of some other factors, like, for instance, the lack of any dialogue with the nation, the indebtedness of Poland, and, by the way, because of running many of the industries by the military people, who don't have any slightest idea about anything except of this purely military business, so that is heading for an absolute disaster. And right now there is a big inflation in Poland. The production was -- I mean the downtrend in production was temporarily halted. However, the statistics are not very much reliable. I believe they are overblown. And besides, this was the fact of, let's say, militarization and compulsory work, and so on, of the economy. So that the first effect certainly was, especially in mining industries. But it's now running out of steam, and you will not repeat the same next year. And by the way, even the plans of extracting the coal and so on are not supposed to be increased. So that this is that. And for the next year, another round of difficulties is in course for Poland. I mean first of all in the standard of living, further inflation, budgetary deficit, and very likely stagnating growth, so that -- besides, may I say at this time that the so-called Hungarian reform cannot be followed in Poland. I know very well the Hungarian reform. The Hungarians were preparing for three years their reform, and for 12 years they have been running it. So all together, 15 years. They are even not in the halfway of their reform. And besides, the results are not as encouraging as many people believe. Right now the stagnation is very widespread in the Hungarian economy, and so on. So that Jaruzelski has not that much time. And besides, even he should be not very much encouraged by the Hungarian results. MAN: Thank you. Approved For Release 2007/03/14: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000100550001-4