MEET THE PRESS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 11
• Document Creation Date: December 21, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 22, 2009
• Sequence Number: 15
• Publication Date: October 23, 1983
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
R//'~IO TV REPORTS, INC.
4701 ,WILLARD AVENUE, CHEVY CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 656-4068
FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
STATION W R C- T V
NBC Network
DATE October 23, 1983 12:00 Noon CITY Washington, D.C.
MARVIN KALB: A truck carrying explosives crashed into
the U.S. Embassy Marine compound in Beirut, Lebanon today,
killing perhaps as many as 120 Marines.
Our guests today, to discuss this tragedy and its
implications, are Senator Sam Nunn, ranking Democrat on the Armed
Services Committee; and Eric Rouleau, for 30 years the chief
Middle East correspondent for Le Monde, one of France's most
prestigious publications.
KALB: In the wake of the explosion in Beirut, Lebanon
this morning that killed perhaps as many as 120 U.S. Marines and
wounded many others, our guests today on Meet the Press are
Senator Sam Nunn of Georgia, considered the most influential
Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, and Eric Rouleau, who
for 30 years has been the chief Middle East correspondent for the
French newspaper Le Monde.
Our reporters today are Mort-on__K_o_ndr__acke of The New
Republic, Suzanne Garment of The Wall Street Journal, Robert
Novak of The Chicago Sun-Times, and to open the. questioning, our
regular panelist, Bill Monroe of NBC News.
BILL MONROE: Senator, do you.have any information on
this incident that we might not have at this point?
SENATOR SAM NUNN: Bill, the latest information I have
is they have confirmed about.120 Marines dead and there are over
100, probably around 112, wounded. Some of those wounded could
move into what we call the KIA category, or killed in action, in
OFFICES IN: WASHINGTON D.C. ? NEW YORK ? LOS ANGELES ? CHICAGO ? DETROIT ? AND OTHER PRINCIPAL CITIES
Male"?' SU?p"ed b' Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1 ), exhibi,ed.
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
the near or the coming hours. So that's the latest information I
have.
MONROE: You originally opposed our putting these
Marines into Lebanon. What is your reaction to this news?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, my first. reaction is one of great
sympathy to the families of the brave men that were killed. My
second reaction is that we need to do everything possible now to
protect those Marines who are still in Lebanon because we have a
unit that has been literally decimated. That unit has taken
between 15 and 20 percent casualties. In Vietnam or any other
war we would consider that unit almost ineffective at this stage.
So the second point I would like to make is we've got to augment
that unit and' we've got to do it very rapidly because they're in
their most exposed positions now.
MONROE: What do you mean, augment the unit?
SENATOR NUNN: We've got to at least have some people
come back to the ground from the ships. The Marines have got to
have a unit that has what we call unit integrity. That means
command. That means clear-cut line of authority. We don't even
know now how many of the people who were in charge of the unit,
the top officers, remain there. So that is the first step.
MONROE: You're not talking about adding more Marines to
the overall total of about 1600 we had there?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, I felt that the unit we had there
was woefully inadequate for the mission they'd been given. But
that's not the immediate problem. The immediate problem is to at
least have as capable a unit there in the next few hours as we
had there before this tragedy.
MONROE: Do you feel there's any reason to believe that
this kind of attack could have been anticipated and security
improved so that it could not have taken place?
SENATOR NUNN: I have no way of judging the security. I
think we'll have to get all the facts. It seems to me to be
strange that that truck was able to go through those checkpoints.
But it's my understanding that they chose the entrance that was
most unlikely from the point of view of Marine planning. It is
also my understanding that the entrance that they crashed through
was about a hundred yards from the actual building. So it was a
very exposed position.
The bottom line is our Marines have been in an untenable
military position. They remain in an untenable military posi-
tion. And I think we've got to look very seriously. I think the
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
President owes the nation and the Marine Corps and our national
security a quick but a very thoughtful analysis of our situation
there now. I don't think we've had that in the past.
KALB: Thank you, gentlemen.
We'll be back with more questions for Senator Sam Nunn
and Eric Rouleau.
ROBERT NOVAK: Senator Nunn, 'I just want to follow up
one part of the questioning of you by Mr. Monroe. You left the
impression that for the future you would advocate an increase, an
overall aggregate increase in the number of Marines in Lebanon.
Do you think that would make their position more tenable?
SENATOR NUNN: I'm not talking about the long term. I
tried to make it very clear I'm talking about in the next few
hours.. We've got a very exposed position there. We've got a
unit that's been decimated. We have security forces that must be
in disarray. We have Marines that are also under attack at the
University of Beirut, I understand, which is not a comfortable
situation. So I'm talking about the immediate next few hours.
In the longer term, I have a totally different view. I
think the President -- in the long view, the President should try
to get the United Nations forces. I would like to do it immedi-
ately. I would like to see the United Nations forces that are in
the northern part of Lebanon now move in and augment our Marines
and eventually replace those Marines. That has been my view from
the very beginning.
NOVAK: So when would you like to see the Marines out of
SENATOR NUNN: Well, as soon as we can first protect
them, make sure we don't suffer any more casualties. We don't
want to be seen doing things in the short term that would
increase their exposure. But I would like to see an augmentation
by the U.N. forces and a replacement by them, hopefully in the
next.fe,w weeks.
NOVAK: Mr. Rouleau, there has been a lot of speculation
by Administration officials in the past few hours that this
atrocity, this act of terrorism was committed by Iranian sources.
Do you, with your knowledge of the Lebanese situation, think that
i's an accurate appraisal?
ERIC RDULEAU: You see, I don't think at this point we
can judge who did it.' But there are at least two organizations
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
which have the capabilities of doing in. One of them is this
Shiite pro-Iranian group. And the other one, which is, I think,
a much larger organization called the National Resistance
Movement, the Lebanese National Resistance Movement, in Lebanon,
which has been active in the South of Lebanon now for a year and
has killed something like 130 or 140 Israeli soldiers and wounded
scores of them.
This organization, I know, took a decision around the
15th of September to organize attacks against American Marines
and French soldiers even if a cease-fire was concluded. At that
time there was no cease-fire. And the reason why they decided to
do that is that they considered the Americans and the French as
not an impartial force.
If you'll remember, when the multinational force came
into Lebanon a year ago, there was a national consensus for it.
All the Lebanese wanted it. Now, rightly or wrongly, the French
and Americans appear as if they are part of the civil war in
favor of the government of Mr. Gemayel.
NOVAK: In your opinion, is it significant that the
Italians were not attacked?
ROULEAU: I didn't expect the 1-talians to be attacked.
I wrote an article three or four weeks ago saying that only the
Americans and French would be attacked, for the simple reason
that the Italians have remained very noncommittal and they were
neutral in this conflict and they don't appear -- again I repeat,
they are not perceived as supporting a faction in Lebanon, Mr.
Gem.ayel's faction.
SUZANNE GARMENT: Senator Nunn, let me press just once
more on the question of U.S. force in Lebanon. There are still
many people in Washington talking about how to get the Marines
out. The U.S. Government has said that it does not want to
participate directly and intimately in the political talks that
are to come. When we give signals like this, don't we increase
the talk among the factions in Lebanon that it is possible to
scare America away?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, I don't 'know, but I believe that we
must look towards our own interest. We are spread too thin all
over the world. If we had a legitimate and a precise military
mission in Lebanon, then certainly casualties like this should
not deter us. But the President has defined our mission in
Lebanon as having the Marines participate in the effort to clear
Lebanon of all foreign forces. That is mission impossible. It
has been mission impossible from. the very beginning.
So I would submit we must look to our own security. I
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
submit we must protect the Marines that are there. But I think
that we must find a way to replace them. We are no longer a
deterrent force in Lebanon. We are a target. Our Marines are
targets. They are much more hostages than they are a deterrent.
GARMENT: If after his analysis the President never-
theless decides to ask for more troops, what is your guess about
what your colleagues in the Senate would say to him?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, I do not know. The Senate had a
long debate on the 18-month. I did not favor that because the
President had never precisely defined the mission. He still has
not. It seems to me that we ought to go back to the drawing
boards and say, "Mr. President, what are the Marines doing there-,
and under what terms would they be withdrawn?"
I have not gotten anyone in this Administration to even
tell me what success is -- that is., under what conditions we
could say the Marines have fulfilled their mission. Now let's
have them depart.
But I repeat, the first thing is to protect the Marines
who are there. Second, I think we ought to get the United
Nations forces to replace them in an orderly way.
MORTON KONDRACKE: Senator Nu-nn, in 1958 President
Eisenhower sent 10,000 Marines into Lebanon and accomplished the
-purpose for which they went there. Why is not a similar show of
force appropriate in this day and age?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, Congress Gibbons, in the House
debate -- I believe it was Congressman Gibbons -- said that we
have too-few Marines there to fight and too many to die. I think
that's exactly where we ar-e'no'w: ""-SoT' f the-Pr-esid,ent does not
choose to go the U.N. route, which I suggest, it seems to me he's
got two choices. One choice is to pull most Marines out, put
them on the ships, leave a very small symbolic force there that
would admittedly be exposed. The second choice is precisely what
you indicate, is to greatly beef up the force, to increase the
perimeter -- that is, the overall security of the force by
increasing the protected area. And that would require probably
five to ten thousand Marines.
As far as going in with 20,000 troops right now, I think
you'd first of all have to identify who they were going to fight.
I think it would be very difficult to do that under the present
conditions.. Finding the enemy, identifying the enemy, knowing
which faction to take on, it seems to me, would be a military
planner's absolute nighmare. So I would be exposed to that.
KONDRACKE: Well, the President has said on various
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
occasions that the purpose of having the Marines there is to
prevent the Syrians from taking over -- the Syrians, as he said,
backed by the Soviets, from taking over the country. Now, is
that a correct assessment' of the situation, and is it worth the
use of American power to accomplish that-end?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, I don't know if that's what the
President has in mind. That was not the. goal that he had in mind
when he came to the Senate and asked for our 18-month extension.
He said the goal there was not just to clear the Syrians out, but
all foreign forces in Lebanon, including the Israelis, the PLO,
everyone. Now, that is the goal we are now operating under.
If the President-simply-wanted to clear the Syrians out,
it seems to me we're on a strange kind of negotiating pattern.
Because as I read it, we are basing a lot of our negotiations on
the assumption that we're going to convince the Syrians to pull
out voluntarily. The strange thing that's going on while we're
doing that and we have that assumption -- which I find ques-
tionable, by the way -- the President, it seems to me, about
every three days blasts the Syrians with some new indictment.
That does not seem to me to be consistent with the assumption
that they are going to cooperate.
KALB: ' Mr. Rouleau, Senator Nunn mentioned a couple of
minutes ago- that the U.S. mission at this point can almost be
described as mission impossible. From your own experience in
Lebanon, do you think that mission is impossible, or is it a
valid one? Should we be there?
ROULEAU: Well, first I think one should remind -- we
should remind ourselves what the mission is about. When this
multinational force went there, it wasn't to throw out any
foreign forces out of Lebanon or to take part in the civil war. ~
It was just for peace-keeping in the Beirut area and protect the
civilian population. That was all. Now we're talking...
KALB: And that, you think, was a valid effort.
ROULEAU: It was a valid effort because., mainly, all the
Lebanese were for it. I think we should work on those lines. If
there's a consensus for multinational forces, it's a protection
for our forces.
If at one point, like it is the case today, a majority
of Lebanese perceive us as a foreign intervention force trying to
support one faction against all the other factions, I think it's
a very dangerous thing to do. And anyway, it's outside thef
mandate.
KALB: How do you know it's a majority? How do you know
it's a majority?
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
Z
7
ROULEAU: Well, the majorit-y is because the Gemayel
group, faction which is in power is penly contested by all the
other factions, whether they a e Muslim or. some Christian
factions. Maronite factions ar against Gemayle, like former
President Franjieh, Raymond Ed e yy (?). There are Druze. There
are Shiahs. And so it's very easy, I think, to conclude that
there's a majority-of Lebanese who would like to settle their
affairs amongst themselves. And we appear as if we're inter-
fering in their affairs.
MONROE: Senator, did I understand you to say a little
while ago that you had a report that Marines were under attack or
are under attack this morning at-the University of Beirut?
SENATOR NUNN: Yes, that was my information. But the
information is very sketchy, and that's about all I know about
it.
SENATOR NUNN: I can't give you many more details than
that. Certainly not the kind of massive, explosive situation we
had develop near the airport, but certainly sniper fire and, I
understand, small-arms fire.
MONROE: You've talked about withdrawing Marines,
'Senator. What about the factor that this attack. makes it harder
to withdraw because if we withdrew the Marines in the immediate
future it would appear that we were giving in to a terrorist
attack?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, first of all, I'm not saying we
ought to immediately withdraw. Immediately, we need to shore up
what we've got there now and protect our people.
Second, we need to have a phased withdrawal, with the
United Nations taking our place.
So you're correct. If we simply put the Marines on the
ships and pulled out, I think it would be very bad. But this has.
been a.disaster waiting to happen. It was apparent when the
cease-fire was declared that that was the time for the President
to redefine our mission. The President has not redefined that
mission. It is still very, very broad. And in my view, unless
you define that mission to be one of having the Marines there
until the U.N. can take over or until the Lebanese Army can take
over, then you have defined an open-ended mission.
MONROE: Mr. Rouleau, you said that you wrote an-article
a few weeks ago that a specific organization in Lebanon was
planning this kind of attack on the French troops and on the
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
American troops, which has now taken place. What kind of
organization? Who are these people?
ROULEAU: They are a very mysterious organization. I
don't think they ever held a press conference or ever met -- no
official representative met the press. But I get their handouts
in Paris, and around the 15th or 20th of September I met maybe
not a representative, a formal representative., but somebody very
close to them. And this man told .me that they had taken a
decision around the 15th of September, a political decision, to
attack the Americans and the French,,to get out all the multi-
national forces and get -- I'm very happy to hear the Senator say
that because I think it's quite a widespread view in Lebanon
amongst Lebanese. They would like to have United Nations forces,
because at least they have a feeling they are neutral forces,
they're not going to interfere in the internal domestic affairs.
And to answer a question, the decision was taken around
the 15th of September to attack, and I expected attacks. But I
must confess I didn't expect such a murderous, such a tragic bomb
attack at this one. I thought they were going to snipe and kill
American and French soldiers.
NOVAK: Mr. Rouleau, from your experience as a journal-
ist, do you think the perception that you describe of the
Lebanese that the Americans and the French are not evenhanded
that they have been tilting to one side is a correct and accurate
perception?
ROULEAU: Well, I think the American Government-is
Americans. I mean the American Government considers Mr. Gemayel
as the legitimate government of Lebanon, not the legal. There's
a big difference in the two. I mean there's legal and there is
legitimacy.
You see, in a civil war it's very difficult to speak of
legitimacy, because by definition in a civil war you have groups
warring each other and the legitimacy of a government is being
contested. So by the fact of saying that Gemayel is legitimate
is already taking sides. Number one.
Number two, in action, the American Government has been
supplying an awful lot of armaments to the Lebanese Army,
training the Lebanese Army, which is perceived, again -- I don't
think wrongly -- by the Muslim factions as a Christian Phalangist
army. It's not a neutral army, it.'s the army of Mr. Gemayel.
And therefore I think, at least on the American side, I
think the American Government is taking sides.
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
NOVAK: -Senator Nunn, two of your colleagues, Senator
Hatch and Senator Zorinsky, several weeks ago came back from
Syria with a report which they submitted to the White House to
the effect that Syria would cooperate with a multinational force
that" apparently did not contain the United States. Do you think
that is an accurate assessment and that we should be moving on
that grounds in an agreement with Syria in Lebanon?
SENATOR NUNN: I really don't believe I can make a
judgment on that. I have not talked to the senators in depth.
I've had only passing conversations with them on that subject. I
did read the articles about it. I'm not in a position to make a
judgment on it. _
I do believe, however, that as long as we have U.S.
Marines sitting there that are in effect hostages, not only to
the Syrians, but of many other factions in Lebanon, our bargain-
ing position vis-a-vis Syria is much weaker than it would be than
if we were offshore.
GARMENT: Mr. Rouleau, did you learn anything about the
connections of this group, who they know?
.group?
ROULEAU: Yes. I mean I know it's a multi-confessional
group. There are people from all religions. There are Muslims,
there are Christians, Greek Orthodox Catholics, Maronites. It's
a nationalist leftist-oriented group which I think Communists are
playing an important role in that group. It's very well-knitted,
very well-organized. And as I mentioned before, they have killed
many Israelis successfully, in the sense that they were succes-
sful in their preparation. And I think it was one of the reasons
why Mr. Begin withdrew the troops behind the Awali. He could not
face them. They're well-organized, they're very secret.
So, I think that we -- unfortunately, we are going to
hear more of them in the future.
GARMENT: When you say Communist, did you learn anything
more specific about which variety of...
ROULEAU: I think members of the Communist Party in
Lebanon are in it, in the leadership. I don't know how important
they are, but I know at least one who's connected with that
organization.
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
KONDRACKE: Well, when you mention the word Communist,
one naturally, thinks of the Soviet Union. Is the Sov -- let me
ask this both about the immediate organization and about the
geopolitical situation. If the United States really does pull
out, do we leave the region.open for Soviet influence to in-
crease?
ROULEAU: No, I don't think this is a possibility,
either for the French or the American Government.
I think the French Government has exactly the view of
the Senator, that this is too big a job for us. The civil war in
Lebanon is terrible. I mean nobody has ever entered Lebanon and
gone out successfully. -
No, I think the only way out -- I think the Senator is
absolutely right on this -- is to organize a significant force
from the United Nations to replace the French and Americans and
the Britishand the Italians, and make sure that peace-keeping
would be the job of the United Nations, not of...
KONDRACKE: Except that whenever in the Middle East the
U.N. has been required to do a peace-keeping mission, basically,
they've been a sieve. They've allowed whatever terrorist groups
were in the vicinity to right through and occupy whatever
territory they occupied. -
What evidence do you have that the U.N. could do the job
this time?
ROULEAU: Well, I think the question can be discussed,
examined, and maybe the numbers would be more important. But you
see, what is more important in all this -- you see, you are
alluding to the fact that United Nations troops were in the South
of Lebanon and let the Palestinian Fedayeen go into the region.
But this was a very particular situation. There was this
Fedayeen-Israeli confrontation.sd
Today we are.facing another situation. We are facing a
situation where most Lebanese -- I would say practically all
Lebanese -- would like to see peace and order- in their own
country. And they want to look to people in whom they feel
confident. And you can only feel confident, if you are a
Lebanese, when you are facing a United Nations force. You know
they have no ax to grind, they have no imperial objectives, or
whatever. I think it will have a much bigger chance to succeed
this time than in the times you are referring to.
MONROE: Senator, as you know, the Marines in the Beirut
area have been subjected in recent days to sniper attack. In a
remarkably brutal aspect of this present situation, the rescuers
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200920015-1
 Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1
around those ruins are being sniped at. Do you have any formula
for protection of the Marines from sniping? Is there anything
the Marines ought to be doing about this, some inhibition on them
now removed?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, if you wanted to protect them, you
have to have a much 'broader perimeter. You cannot put them in
the low ground, where they are around the airport, and expect
them to be protected. Even the huge amount of firepower we have
off the shore will not deter those kind of attacks because we're
not going to blow up Beirut if we get three Marines killed with
sniper fire. We can't have that kind of massive retaliation
against innocent people.- We do-n't have a way to protect them
where they are now. They're in an untenable military situation.
MONROE: Should we expand that perimeter?
SENATOR NUNN: I'd think that would be unwise. If the
President will not go toward the United Nations, then that may be
the only choice. But I think it is an unwise choice.
NOVAK: Senator Nunn, the burden of Mr. Rouleau's
remarks is that there's a perception in Lebanon that our forces
have not been objective. Do you think that the U.S. Marine
forces, under the direction of our government, went wrong in
siding toward the Gemayel government instead of being a neutral
force?
SENATOR NUNN: It's a close question because to the
exten'that we returned fire, we were protecting our own people.
You have to protect your own people. And I think the French did
the same thing. But I believe the unfortunate perception is we
were siding with the government. I believe that's an erroneous
perception, but I think it is the perception.
GARMENT: Senator, do you think that it's in the U.S.
interest to stop favoring the government against its enemies?
SENATOR NUNN: Well, that assumes that I think we
already have started favoring the government against its enemies.
I don't. go that far. I think we've tried to be a peace-keeping
force. But the problem is a superpower, by its.very nature, has
great. difficulty being perceived as totally impartial.
KALB: Thank you very much, Senator Nunn and Mr. Eric
Rouleau, for being with us today on Meet the Press.
Approved For Release 2009/01/22 : CIA-RDP88-01070R000200920015-1