LETTER TO MR. THOMAS K. LATIMER FROM JOHN P. DEMPSEY

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP89B00552R000100030001-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 15
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 25, 2004
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: January 29, 1976
• Content Type: LETTER

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WASHINGTON, D.C. 20509
Review Staff: 76-0165
29 January 1976
Mr. Thomas K. Latimer
Special Assistant to the Secretary
and Deputy Secretary of Defense.
Room 3 E 941
The Pentagon
Dear Mr. Latimer:
On 22 January 1976 the_Senate Select Committee
requested access to, and copies of, the attached docu-
ments which were written by George Wendt, in an investi-
gation for the Psychology Department of the University
of Rochester. Our records indicate that Wendt, in
1950, received a grant from the Office of. Naval Re-
search to conduct research in connection with interro-
gation techniques. In order to implement his inquiries,
Wendt was sent to Germany to study and'evaluate the in-
terrogation methods of various defector reception cen-
ters.
In order to comply with the Third Agency Rule,
we ask your approval to release the documents to the
Committee. Should you approve their release and if you
so desire, we will properly sanitize them prior to
their dispatch to the.SSC. In such instances, we
generally remove the names of cooperating Americans
and/or foreign nationals and paraphrase or excise
those sections.where we feel their inclusion could com-
promise intelligence sources and methods.
25X1A
Attachment:
As stated
Sincerely,
(_,/Review Staff
25X1
OSD REVIEW COMPLETED
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~t~`pO iT 01 'T'RIP T IR 'TYP f3L3GICAL rk.oSLE
IPNR '#%` .)ft,7: 7.1RK
0. R. Wendt
May 10, 1951
Joseph LaSalle, Capt. Reich, i x Gareth, F. J. Traaztt?; azasdo rf i',
:fir. von 3u.rabach, Dr. Schreiber, Cdr. Tyler), :erlin (Capt.
0ra:ubart), . Heidelberg (Capt. 14ehnke who was given' the im res-
sion that _ +endt's 'Interest in irnterro ration was only one of a.
nucber of interests in a survey of psycholo{deal work. ), Frank-
furt (Dr. Leo Crespi, Dr. Adorno` ), Vienna (Cdr. Douglas Cook),
5alzbrurg (Lt. Charles Ho.cheleau) and 'i.unich (Lt. R,-c1a].y, ' r.
Cha.ll'~ ). Two GIG installations were visited but need not be
identified. :ant. Grauhart, Dr. LeSallle, Gdr. Tyler, and Lt.
Rychly had been informed through channels of the u lt.imate
purpose of the survey; the others a; re told by' +tendt oly that
he wa3 stud:lin;Y psychoio ical problc of intl'rro:'atLOf. In
most cases the Interviews were detailed, -dng up to six hours
of time. Observations of int, :rro !ation of cooperative sources
' i
on s tr .te -ic intelli;;once s fiattrial ~~aas done ~l i. JIG of t'IEC and
of reluctant sources at one of the CIC tn:,tallations.
by the :tussians. Interrogation by OS4 and C'ru per3?nnel was
observed. The stay in Garraaany and Austria was froci 1 i:arcii
to 20 'arch 1551. A partial list of the places srisited and
p -rsonnel interviewed follows: (Those indicated by an as-
tcrisk ere iaiterviesed Without being told that > endt, wf as
interested in interrogation problems but gave substantial in--
for_-,ation nevertheless.) Oherusel and the JIG of ECIC (e'r.
.
and one former German major general who had been interrogated
officers, army intelligence, GIG and CID personnel, American
German psychologists working on interro cation problem,
and
purpose of trig: The trip was undertaken so that 'iiendt could
a teneral impression of interrogation proced fires, of the
field settings in which interrogation takes place, and of the'
psychological problems involved in interrogation, prep arauory
-to the design of experimental procedures for testing the value
of chemical agents in `interrogation.
Nature of sur7 :- The information was gat .ered by int rTriew-
in4, interrogators and by observl 7 interrogation in Germany
and Austria. . The people interviewed were naval intelligence
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e of this r, eport s ROT E ., Y9 written sc that the
i ,, essian3 gathered by Wendt,, who was co riple rely uracouaintr d
With the field of interrogation, may be' recorded and submitted
to experienced of 'iccrs in Uil to check their accuracy, relevancy,,
and completeness. In other words, this report is not written as
st's analysis of the interrogation probl sirs but as. the
. 4 r 4"i
.
E.I. . - ., ,
q;xp ssiors of a novice after very short acquaintance. l t includes
also s3 ,r.-- preliminary and very tentative sugesti7ns of "possible
e;. p- rimental approaches to the problem of use of chemical aid's to
interrogation.
"General im--ressions and evaluations: The general, impression is
that the psychological Arab e of interrog ation are not unique.
They appear to be of the same nature as those in such other hu-
man relations situations as the employment intervie-r,: the psychia-
tric interview, sales interview, in propaganda work, nor ale work,,
leadership situations, and are in s>osme w-Ays like the procedures
involved in experimental studies of suggestion and hypnosis. This
is encoura?ing, since experimental metaod3 for interview analysis
and evaluation have been worked out in these fields and can probably
be applied with little :modification to the interrogation problem.
However, it is expected that relatively little scientific work of a.
n 4 ^'"Kl
one must look directly in the field situations unu an Alice :vark
useful nature will be found whin corresronus to the pro-e Ls
used in those interrogations which d?;Bend for heir ef.fe ctiveness
primarily on fear, threats, punis ' hment or deprivation.. Such inter-
views have not been subjected to scientific study to any extant.
situations, taut that different chornlcal procedures will-L. ~. ue p u
The general irTression of the possihilizies for help from cheiieal
a ;=ants is that significant gains in the efx is i-_nc y of interrogation
are prob ble, but that the li_i.eithood of any-dramatically successful'
chemical method i rather low. Further:-aare, it appears predictable
that no sin?la substance or ination' of at~~~Xr+anc...es ill sui t all
, nl f 1
information which miw ht be of immediate help.
e
e
neeae .
search in these areas and also a fair amount of already available
The general. impression of the field situation is that tine few
interrogators operating at a profess=ional leval of performance
are outstanding for their rarity and that much improvement In -
of interro ators era in the
recruitina, selection and training
procedures and equipment used in interrogation is p ossible and
is a wealth of optortunity for psychological re-
r
d 1 h
for e..perionce in this area.
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in different situations: prisoner of war screening, interrogation
of reluctant sources, of cooperative sources, monitored conversa-
tions, checkinn veracity of total story, producing a "break", etc.
To :sake contributions to all of these situations seems to call for
a relatively long program of experimentation in -which the early
efi'orts should be directed to those methods which seem most likely
to be of some slight but immediate help and most' lizcely to be ap-
plicable in the field, rather than to an all-ou; search for a
"-wonder drug."
Finally, Wendt care back with some clearer views about t :e ethics
of the use of chemical substances in interrogation. Their ethical
inappropriateness seems to have been much nified, if one surveys
present approved practices in interrol ation. The ethical objection
to use of chemical substances see.z to rest largely on popular
emotional and irrational connotations of the word "drums'." Even -
intelligent and well-informed people seem to fear the word. Actually,
nest of the possible classes of chemical action on the body are now
in general use in interrogation in the form of thL -drit.,s cow only
used' in our culture. Examples are: (1) Use.of over-stimulation by
coffee and cigarettes. (2) Use of the w ithdra;r3.l syij toms of an ad-,
dice, by dcprivatIon of tobacco. (3) Use of an anaesthetic dru ,
alcohol.. (b) Use of chemically toxic conditions in the body, pro-
duced by sleep loss. Very little t at is different in kind (or per-
haps in axoiznt) can be e Fe^ted from substances identified in the
public mind with the word "drug".
Characteristics of interrogation: It n-az zniforray stated by tho
Interrogators seen in this survey that no generalizations can be
made about interrogation, because of the great v ariety of factors
which enter into the situation.. In its most extre:ne form this
statement becomes, "every case is unique."
To some extent this is true, because, not alone are there.nu. roes
factors which differ among various interrogation situations, but
each pattern of factors tends to create a new set of problem. In
this sense there is a tremendous variety of different specific
problem of interrogation. The problem is much greater in scope
than that facin ; research in restricted areas such as ps; chothera--
peutic counseling, salesmanship, etc.
However, in spite of thin great variety, there appear to be enough
common elements of procedure and technic in pride areas of inter-
ro, ation, so that an oxr. erir^erital approach can be d,~:vised whichcan
produce breadly usef l results.
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This report atte rpts onlr?z ~a st;uex the classes of factors
with respect to which interrogations differ, without indicating
the ways in which these differences interact with one another. A
writer would need to expand this outline to textbook proportions
.too cover adequately the scope of the problem.
1. Kinds of interrogation and ways in which they ' diff er.
A. Structures of interrogation, such as
1. One Interrogator, one Source, I known as such to S.
2. Same, except for addition of interpreter.
3. Sarre as (1) except for addition of secretary.
4.
Two or mare known I's, one S.
5. One or more known Its, two or more i's. (Group
interrogation may have 10 Sts at once.
One 1, unknown to S. (As at, bars, night clubs, tie
.nurse-patient relation in hospitalized prisoners, etc.)
7. Monitored or recorded conversations between prisoners.
B. Places of interrogation, such as
1. Front line field stations.
2. Army ,Troup level.
3, Interrogation centers.
1!. Prisons, etc.
5. fames.
6. Bars, night clubs, etc.
C. Amount of information sought.
1. Screening only - interrogation rw be limited to a
few minutes.
2. Single session interro Tati:)n.
3?
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Long interrogations, up to a year.
Interrogations of unique important S's.
D. Kinds of information sought, such as
1. Background information on S.
Background information on others.
3. Information on criminal or espionage activities of S.
14. Strategic information, low level.
5. Cultural information.
6. Technical information.
7. Scientific information.
8< Planning information.
II. Characteristics of the Source which affect interrogation.
Z'.
Hw
B. Age.
C. Educational level.
1. Grade school.
2. High school.
3. Colle;e.
s;. Professional.
5. Scientific.
D. Specialty of Source, such as
l.' Enlisted personnel.
.2. ton-corms.
3. Young officers.
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 Senior t c tiTY OF ROCHESTER
? High leve], military NEW personnel?
h
6. civilian.,
7. Civilian,
8. Civilian,
9. Civilian,
10. Civilian,
11. Civilian,
12. Low-level
130 Espionage
1. PCVi recently in combat.
3.
14.
5.
Air crow shot down behind lines.
3: Fearful because of cri: or espi ona 'e to be concealed.
Fear of brutality in interrogation.
After-effects of solitary confinement.
F. Emotional state of Source as influenced by such things as
Region.
Rural or urban.
Socio-economic level.
Political affiliations..
6. Religious affiliation,
7. Occupation, as above in D.
farmers.
trades.
business.
professional.
scientists.
government.
espionage agents, subversives and criminals.
agents..
R. Cultural background of Source, such as
1. Nationality.
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b. Fatigue from combat or induced sleep loss.
TnE UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER
Discomfor WnmAloa Iii Yxit.h l-rawal or .tobacco from
addicted S.
Depression from sense of helplessness.'
interaction with that of the I, is one of the
very important variables in the success or
speed of interrogation. Ho' ever, little that
is useful can be said about it in a brief
b others (The personality of the S, and. its
1.0. Eagerness, as in so ^..e voluntary 5's?
11. Source approaching a "break".
G. Traits of Source,-such as
1: Personality, such as'
a. psychopaths.
9. Bravado, as.in some izpostersw
space because of the co:cpletity of personality
and because of the lack of useful codified in--
formation directly applicable to the interroga--
tion problem.)
2. Character.
3, Life history'.
H. Physiological states of S, such as those
1. Due to sleep loss.
2. Due to malnutrition.
3. Due to overstinlulation by coffee, cigarettes.
b. Due to withdrawal of tobacco.
5. Due to over-heated interrogation room.
1. 'Attitudes of Source toward Interrogator,, such as
1. Cooperative, no restraints.
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 6. Reluctant, fearful because criminal or espionage.
A. Age.
.B. Prestige.
Apparently reluctant, but imposter.
8. Looks down on interrogator, self-confident.
J.'_ Other attitudes based on reputation of the interrogation
system, such as,
1. Knowledge on part of the professional Russian agents
that Aitterican interrogators are not allowed to use
.force.
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2. Coop f -MPf f nsequencesa.
ROCHESTER, a NEW YORK
3. Apparently cooperative, really an imposter.
1C. Reluctant, hardened criminal.
Reluctant, fearful, but no crime.
7.
2. Lack of respect for system resulting from infiltration
of American interrogation centers..
G. Personality. (see above, II,G,l,b)
Training,
alleged suicides of prisoners of GIG.
Fear in some S's induced by Russian propaganda about
Difficulties arising from knowledge that American
interrogators cannot always carry out promises cif
protection cT defectors.
III. Characteristics of the Interrogator which affect Source, such as
E. Specialities in which he has . extensive Iciowledge.
.F. Language facility and accent.
G. Cultural information.
H. Beliefs about interrogation.
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I. Skill in judging Sources.
J. Dramatic ability.
K. Self-critical ability.
L. Aptitude for interrogation.
IV. Procedures and technics in interrogation.
/hen one moves into the area of the actual procedures by which
interrogators achieve their.- results, it becomes much more diffi-
cult to get from them a clear statement of how they proceed. They
are apt to Ise descriptions such as "I just decide intuitively'',
"interrogators are born, not made", or to have recourse to anec-
dotes about specific cases. Their grasp of what they are doing
apears much less well-organized than the fairly well-codified
procedures in, for example, non-directive counseling, psychoanalytic
interviews, psychiatric interview, e;ployse-relations interview,
propaganda efforts, etc., yet it seer fairly certain that most
actual interrogations use exactly the sane procedures which have
been codified for these other areas. Furthermore, many of their
specific procedures internal to an interrogation resemble those in
other interview situations such as the psychotherapeutic interview.
The human relations set up in short and long, interrogations have
counter-parts in leadership situations, suggestion experiments., the
transference relationship of psychotherapy, and others. Only in
the area of the police-type interrogation, cross exa.-Anation,. and
checking does one meet problems which have been. little studio by
psychologists in the U.S.A. and on which few published researches
exist.
An adequate outline of these procedures .nd technics would be the
work.of several months. In lieu of such a survey, it does not seem
worthwhile to do rare than eke a fe'q comments.
In all interrogations the propac-a_nda principle of us+o of related
attitudes is of first importance. Interrogators are selected and
trained for detaild knowledge of the language, culture and atti-
tudes of the Sts. In the case of unique S's, extensive efforts
may be made to reconstruct Choir childhood an' later history in
order to know what attitudes to play on. (Psychological test me-
thods such as projective technics do not appear to have been used
to (,ot such information.)
SECRET
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Another fundamental principle of propaganda (and suggestion) is
also co=)n i *terrogation: that of, if possible, not making
suggestions or asking questions which will arouse resistance.
Displacement of aggression, displacement of shame and other basic
propaganda devices also appear in interrogation, Use of old habit
systerns is made use of in _a way similar to such use by hrypnotists.
or experimenters on suggestion.
Some interrogators use some of the technics of non-directive.
,counseling and psychiatric interviews in the reduction of talking,
on their own part by use of.the introduction of pauses, and. by the
.use of the technic of "reflecting feelings."
In long, skillful interrogations the 5 may come to look or the I
as a friend. This may develop into the same kind of relationship
as "transferences" in psychotherapy. Interrogators must also avoid
counter-transference in order not to lose sight of their objectives.
Interrogators have probably given more thought than most interviewers
to the problem of timing of the interrogation, in order to see the 5
at a favorable time and in a favorable state. They appear equally
aware of the need for selection of the proper personality.of I to-work.:
with a particular S, as in true in., say, psychotherapy.
The plan of procedure for an intxerr Frator ;`rill differ with the
portance of the S, the expected length of interrogation, the attitude
of the S, the I -- S personality relationship, and other factors. It
may be friendly from the begi-vinin ;, non-com:ltal while putting the
burden of proof on S, primarily based on anxiety, or mixed. The. tech-
nics used will vary with the plan. It is in the area of criminal in-
terrogation that the lack of information got by this survey was most
Sole preliminary thinking about experimental studies of use of chemical
agents as aids to interrogation: Interrogations differ in conditions,
length, purpose, emotional tone and other ways. They differ also with
the personality of the S being, interrogated. It seems likely that no
single substance or combination of substances will suit every situation
or person. In some cases a general cerebral depressant may be useful',.
not to force truth, but to crake falsehood rare difficult. In others
depressants of specific systems, general stimulants, or stimulants of
specific systems night be desired. i'rof ound depressants have been used
as "truth serums" and in narcosynthesis. Substances. producing immediate
toxic effects or cu=milative toxic effects slight, at least, in theory,
be. considered. Finally, one could addict a person and use withdrawal of
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the substance to produc%Ocf bTFd-a6i dd' 9 ysiolog1cal and psychologica1
state. The experimental work All, of course, need to be, restricted
to safe, non-toxic doses of substances, .and use of addiction (except
that already.present to tobacco) as a means of affecting subjects
will not be possible.
The concept of "drug" should be as broad as necessary. It should
include not only what are co=.lanly conceived of as drug=s and chemi-
cals, but should include also hormones, vitamins (or their withdrawal
gases, such as freon or carbon monoxide, or low oxygen level, cul-
turally acceptable drugs such as coffee, alcohol, tobacco smoke (or
its withdrawal),, and perhaps normal ways of altering body the istrr
by fatigue, sleep loss, lack of food, and' stress induced by psycho-
logical or' by physical means (such as exposure to wave motion or to
noise or vibration). Combinations of dm=s,. horr-ortes, - stresses and
gases might turn out to be desirable.
experimental work should not be restricted to the Laboratory. It is-
also possible in the actual field interrogation situation, in prisons,
in mental hospitals and narcotic hospitals..
Field studies must be done as soon as enough laboratory experience
'is available to assure that they can run smoothly. They will be -
difficult for security reasons. It is probably best that on such
a mission, only one scientist go, with such. auxiliary help from
people he has long associated with;, a:3. is. necessary. There apj-ear
to be very few places where the work can safely be done. ashen
done, it should ruxi for at least a month with no use .of drugs so
that the investigator may xmoww the local scene.
Prisons may be a vent necessary Work place to get access to 'criminal_
type interrogations of reluctant. sources. The Y~riter once had good
political connections with the Sheriff in charge of-the local county
jail and may be able to revive these, i,f desirable.
Mental hospital patients do not seem to be rood subjects. The inter-
TSretation..?f:-results derived from then depends on knowledge of the
psychological mechanism of the psychosis. Inasi uch as our theory of
psychosis is very unsure (and probably wrong) such work might-be
quite cai.sleadin..
+ ork on narcotic addicts suffers on t ro counts. The iiat ediate effects
of narcotics cannot validly be predicted for the interrogation situa-
tion from ohser ring their effects on experienced people. It would be
111;9 predicting the effects of -a person's first ci-ar by obse rrin:; an
old cigar-3, oker. Secondly, to observe the withdraw-,al syr tptorn -ziil1:
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not be practically used; 5,~~iz "methods are unlikely to be
used in American interrogation.
The best place for an immediate attack on the problem is the-labora-
tory. Here one can work on a variety of substances, in ,a variety of
interview situations, and with subjects differing in personality as
needed. There ae?some security prSblel,.but these can probably be
handled adequately by avoiding a few kinds of work Which must. be re-
served for a prison or field settings.
.-It is planned to operate the Rochester project as an Open one with
only two r,r three of the project personnel or consultants knowing
.the purpose of the work at the outset. The fact that most of the-
personnel will not know the purpose of the research is necessary
because of the slowness of clearance procedures. This may not
operate as a severe handicap. It seers likely that one can present-
ideas to ' a research group attractively enough so that they will
freely elect to work on relevant situations.
In order to accomplish this it is now planned to give an explanation
to the project personnel as follows : o?VR wtas interested in the psy_
cholo;ical offccts of drugs. Since oendt was already -working for
them in this 'field, and since he was a physiological psychologist,
s' cane to him. Iie, however,grz.dually care to conceive it as a
problem requiring a broader, social psychological,, approach, and
pointed out the pressing need's for better x othods in the area of
evaluation of the behavioral effects of chemical agents. The bur'--
geoning of the pharmaceutical industry and the millions basing spent
on research. on ACTH and cortisone are examples. : illions. are being
spent, but behavioral methods for drug; assessment do not exist. ONI
funds were made. available for an intensive project