MARVIN KALB: tHE IRAN SCANDAL CONTINUES.

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP90-00965R000403250001-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 16
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 11, 2012
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: November 30, 1986
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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Meet the Press
NBC Network
November 30, 1986 11:30 a.m.
J MARVIN KALB: The Iran scandal continues.
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, now barred from the
White House, is reported to have shredded secret
documents. Admiral John Poindexter, the National
Security Advisor who resigned, is also reported to
have shredded documents, but whether these documents
are relevant to the Justice Department investigation,
headed by Attorney General Edwin Meese, Is not known at
this time.
On Capitol Hill, other investigations have been
launched, questions raised about who knew what, when;
all as the President's closest advisors, including
Chief of Staff Donald Regan, deny knowledge of the
roots of the spreading scandal, how millions of
dollars from secret U.S. arms sales to Iran ended up
bankrolling the Contra guerrillas fighting the
Sandanista regime in Nicaragua, a tangled, murky and
possibly illegal operation.
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That's our focus today with our guests Walter Mondale,
the Democratic Presidential candidate in 1984, a
former Senator from Minnesota and then Vice President
during the Carter Administration; Daniel Patrick
Moynihan, Democratic Senator from New York, a new
member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee; and
Richard Lugar, Republican Senator from Indiana, the
outgoing Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee.
We'll get their views on Meet the Press, Sunday,
November 30th, 1986.
(Commercial)
Hello and welcome once again. I'm Marvin Kalb.
President Reagan's best friends advise him to move
quickly, to shake up the White House staff, to fire
Donald Regan and to change the national agenda if
possible.
The President returns to Washington today from a long
Thanksgiving Day weekend in California to face a
series of investigations into the biggest political
scandal of his Presidency, the biggest since
tiVatergate.
Joining me for our interviews are my colleagues,
Andrea Mitchell, White House Correspondent for NBC News
and Albert Hunt, the Washington Bureau Chief of the
Wall Street Journal.
`dVe' 1 l be back with former Vice President Walter
Mondale when Meet the Press returns right after these
messages.
(Commercial)
MR. KALB: We are back on Meet the Press discussing
the Iran/Contra connection and the scandal therefrom,
with former Vice President Walter Mondale who comes to
us from Boston.
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Mr. Mondale, you were quoted a few days ago as saying,
and I'm quoting, "I know the White House and I can tell
you there Is not the slightest chance that this was
carried out by one or two people without approval."
Okay. Who do you think was giving Lieutenant Colonel
North the approval?
MR. WALTER MONDALE: Well, I have no way of knowing
but what I was saying in that comment Is having worked
there for four years, the idea that an officer on
assignment in the military would undertake by himself
a massive program with all of the explosive policy and
legal connotations of this action by himself, without
having political approval from higher authority, is
just a non-starter. It just seems absolutely imposs-
ible, in my opinion.
But who he talked to, who he might have gotten
clearance from, how high it goes, I don't know. That's
why we need a full disclosure and as quickly as
possible.
MR. ALBERT HUNT: Mr. wlondale, this Administration has
made much of the role that Vice President Bush has
played, particularly in the area of foreign policy.
Say, in large part, they patterned it after the role
that you used to play in the Carter Administration.
Based
on
your knowledge then of the way foreign policy
works
in
these sorts of administrations, do you think
that
Vice
President Bush either was or should have been
aware
of
what was going on as far as the Iran/Contra
MR. MONDALE: Well, I don't know how to answer that.
I know that when I was in the White House, I was privy
to every bit of secret information that the President
knew, every bit of it. Whether that's the case now,
whether Vice President Bush knew about this, I don't
know.
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But let me change the scene just a moment. You know,
the whole nation is discussing who knew what, when and
so on.
If you look at our Constitution, we weren't supposed
to go through this hide and seek game, this guess what
game. The Constitution says that the President must
take care to faithfully execute the laws of the land.
In other words, it's his responsibility to know what's
going on, to run that Administration and to make
certain that it obeys the law. Whether that occurred,
I don't know and what Vice President Bush's role was,
I don't know.
IVR. HUNT: Well, if you don't know, the key is to find
out what did happen, as you just suggested. What
should be done now? Should there be a special prose-
cutor appointed?
MR. bIONDALE: Well, the first thing is that the
President should stand up, give a speech and lay it all
out. He can find out, if he doesn't know, within
hours exactly what happened and clean this up.
SIR. HUNT: Is that sufficient? We don't need a
special prosecutor, we don't need an Ervin type
committee on Capitol Hill?
NR. IVpNDALE: No, I would start though -- I think what
we're trying to do is to save the last two years of the
Presidency.
If it is felt that he has failed to level with the
American peop 1 e, I don' t see how he can Bove r n and I
don't see how we can deal with America's real
problems, at home or abroad, and it makes the world
much more dangerous for us.
In addition to that, in addition to the President's
responsibilities, I have proposed the establishment of
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a committee in the Senate similar to the Sam Ervin
committee, but this time chaired perhaps by Sam Nunn
of Georgia with, say, Bob Dole as the ranking member
on the Republican side, to try to take a balanced,
bipartisan, thorough approach to find out exactly what
happened.
Secondly, It's perfectly obvious that we need a
special prosecutor. This idea of self-Investigation is
a non-starter, particularly by Mr. Meese. We need a
prosecutor who can look into all aspects of it, use
the F8I and f i nd out what happened, I f 1 aws were
violated, as they apparently were, and then what legal
steps should follow.
The present situation has deepened public unrest
because there's stories about shredding of crucial
documents, about letting these offices remain open to
the very people who are suspected of committing crimes.
This is not way to restore public confidence.
MS. ANDREA MITCHELL: Mr. Vice President, let me ask
you about the role of Mr. Meese.
When he came out and announced all this, the Attorney
General who was investigating it said that the top
aides should stand shoulder to shoulder with the
President. Wasn't he, in fact, acquitting Mr. Regan,
Mr. Casey, Mr. Bush, the President himself without
having even investigated It?
MR. MONDALE: Somebody asked him, and I believe It was
Andrea Mitchell, "How do you investigate yourself?"
The answer is they can't. His answer was, "Well,
we're not investigating ourselves, we're Investigating
those who were named." Well, that implied that that
was the end of it.
Nobody believes that. There's no public confidence in
this process. There simply must be an independent
special counsel and prosecutor as provided by the law.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, do you think that the integrity
of the investigation has already been destroyed by the
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fact that files were probably destroyed, that papers
were shredded and that people, key players, were not
properly interviewed early on?
MR. MONDALE: I believe that there's several things
that are troubling. One is that these charged or
suspected officers were permitted access to those
documents. Any prosecutor knows that those documents
should have been sealed immediately so that they were
for the use of the Courts and the Congress only.
Secondly, the FBI was not ordered into this case right
away. When you have a serious case, that's the first
thing you do at the federal level, so that these
skilled, able investigators can get on the assignment.
Anybody who's been around these matters knows that you
could lose crucial evidence.
Now, whether this has actually happened, I don't know.
There's no way of knowing, but it doesn't look good at
all to me.
MR. KALB: Mr. Mondale, you and a number of other
Democrat leaders have been saying in effect that you
don't want to see a weakened American Presidency
because that's dangerous for the world. But isn't
that just a bit disingenuous?
Wouldn't the Democrats really like to see Ronald Reagan
weakened so that the Democrats have a better shot at it
in 1988?
PAR. NDNDALE: Look, if the Democrats look like they're
trying to hurt America to help themselves, they're not
going to get elected to anything and they shouldn't.
This is a problem for all of us now. And fundament-
ally, it's the most serious of all problems because it
goes to the issue of the accountability of high public
officers to the law of the land. It really goes to
the question of liberty.
I'm a good Democrat, but I'll tell you first of all, [
want this issue of the accountability of the law
settled and I want those who are responsible to tell
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us what happened and only when they do that can we
protect ourselves.
MR. HUMP: Mr. Ivlondale, when the Iranian regime played
a role in bringing down your Administration, Ronald
Reagan and others were quite harsh in the way you all
handled it. Now, ironically, it seems to be
threatening their Adminlstration.
1~Yhat lessons do you think we can draw from their
conduct to foreign policy here?
~R. I~NDALE: I think they have had six years of very
dismal performance. There has been an erratic,
ill-focused foreign policy. Now, six years into their
Administration, they have accomplished nothing, no
major foreign policy accomplishment, which is the good
news.
Right now, we're dead in the water in the Middle East.
In Central America, they've just reached the SALT II
accords and we're further away, apparently, from an
arms agreement and instead are in the middle of an
arms race instead.
The credibility of the Administration with our allies,
we told them not to sell arms to Iran while we were
doing it. We've been trying to get, we were told, a
tough policy to fight with terrorists and yet we've
been trafficking with them. It's hard to know how
foreign policy could be in greater disarray than It is
today.
1\R. KALB: P~Ir. Mondale, thank you very much for being
our guest.
In a moment, the view of two members of the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee, Democrat Daniel Patrick
Moynihan, Republican Richard Lugar when Meet the Press
returns right after these messages.
(Commercial)
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MR. KALB: We are back on Meet the Press discussing
the Iran/Contra connection with two members of the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Democrat Daniel
Patrick Moynihan and Republican Richard Lugar.
Gentlemen, we know that the President is coming back
to Washington today. He has obviously been discussing
this out in California. The scandal spreads. What do
you think is the first, most important thing that he
should do when he gets back?
Senator Moynihan?
SENATOR DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN: First, he should
indicate that there is an extraordinary problem and
that he is going to deal with it in the ways we have
for extraordinary problems. He will see that a
special prosecutor is appointed. I would like to see
him ask the Senate to appoint, in effect, a Watergate
corrmi t tee.
He' s go t o bunch o f peop l e a round h im who, as one
editorial said this morning, the only thing they
seemed to have learned from Watergate is to burn the
tapes. Now, that can't go on. That will just --
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Do, if this afternoon, midnight or
6:00 o'clock in the morning, immediately take charge,
be President and get together with the other elected
people in this city and govern.
MR. ICALB: Senator Lugar?
SENATOR RICHARD LUGAR: Well, I agree. I think you
must take charge immediately in the ways that have been
suggested. [ think that he needs a new staff at the
White House. He may need new Cabinet members. He
clearly needs a new National Security Council and he
ought to do that right away and allow everybody who's
investigating and worry about who did what and what
have you to move along on that path and find justice.
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But the country's got to be governed in the meanwhile
and we have serious foreign policy problems that have
been undermined in Central American, the Middle East,
terrorism across the board.
We're in danger from the Soviets when they see this
vulnerability. That's why the interests of the
Presidency are for the President to be President, to
clean house of all the malefactors and to move on.
MR. KALB: Senator, do you know whether the President
is going to appoint a special prosecutor, immediately
soon today?
SENATOR LUGAR: No, I have no idea, but I think the
value of this program and others is to encourage this
strongly. There's been debate for days out there, at
the White House.
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Anybody out there listening,
watching?
SENATOR LUGAR: Well, this is inconceivable. It's
been characterized as a generation gap between the old
men who are all defending each other and the young
boys who want to get on with it. I'm saying I'm with
the young in this case. We'd better get on with it.
Iv1S. MITCHELL: Senator Lugar, just to follow up and
take it one step at a time: you said a new staff,
perhaps a new Cabinet. Donald Regan, Chief of Staff,
the most powerful since Sherman Adams, he would tell
you himself, up until two weeks ago. Now he's saying
he didn't know anything. Does the bank president know
if the teller is fiddling with the books. Should
Regan be out?
SENATOR LUGAR: Well, clearly, whether Don Regan knew
about the bank teller or any of this I think is beside
the point. The President needs a first class, big
league staff.
MS. MITCHELL: Starting with the Chief of Staff?
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SENATOR LUGAR: He needs big leaguers. Yes. There
are great people in this country that could serve this
President right now. They are not on that staff and
they need to be.
MS. MITCHELL: What about Casey, what about Shultz,
what about Weinberger?
SENATOR LUGAR: I won't get into each and every
Cabinet member. I wouldn't rule out replacing any of
them.
In other words, it just seems to me, at this point,
the President has to have a true, new beginning, a new
Administration. Literally every policy is in shambles
around and he wi l 1 need to take charge in a way that
Mrs. Aquino did last week. She said, "Everybody is
out." Now, we might replace a few.
MS. MITCHELL: Is it also clear to you that George
Bush, who we are told sees every piece of paper that
goes to the President and sits in on every
intelligence briefing each morning, that he had to
know or in any case should have known?
SENATOR LUGAR: I don't know. I presume he should
have known.
I don't know whether he did know, but the facts are
that George Bush has carefully always kept his
confidence with the President. It seems to me that he
ought to on this occasion, he ought to be supportive.
He's a part of this .Administration. He ought to be a
part of the reorganization of it.
MR. HUNT: Senator Moynihan, you were a long-time
member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and
therefore have intimate knowledge of the way the CIA
functions. Is it conceivable to you that this
operation could have taken place, the funneling of
/=+"money to the Contras, without Director William Casey
knowing about it?
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SENATOR MOYNIHAN: It is conceivable that a rogue
National Security Council staff, avoiding the law,
found itself in cahoots with agents inside the Agency
who helped avoid the law.
The I aw has been broken by peop 1 e with no sense of
their Constitutional responsibility here. We are
going to find that these intrigues are everywhere.
You could see it coming as they began that secret move
to overthrow the Nicaraguans without ever telling
themselves even fully what they were doing.
MR. HLJN'I': Sir, do you think that Mr. Casey knew?
SENATOR Iv1JYNIHAN: He ought to have known but it could
have been kept from hIm.
I'm afraid we're going to have a couple of months of
this kind of question. Mr. President, Mr. Vice
President, Mr. Secretary, what didn't you know and
when didn't you know it?
MR. HUNT: Do you think Mr. Casey -- do you think it
would be in the best interest of the Reagan Administ-
rat ion i f Mr. Casey were to either step down or be
dismissed?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Mr. Casey has to find out who in
his organization was working with North and Poindexter
and the others and get rid of them immediately. He
ought to ask also why it was John McMahon, the man who
had agreed to the first shipment to Iran through the
CIA airline --
~vLS. MITCHELL: You mean the former deputy?
SENATOR [VIDYNIHAN: Yes, the number two man, when Casey
was in China.
MR. ICALB: Without Casey's knowledge of that, do you
think?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Without hIs knowledge.
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But he said, "I' 11 do it once but the next time this
has to come from the President In writing." John
MciVlahon did exactly the right thing and the next thing
you know he's out. Why?
NlR. KALB: Did he inform anybody of that when he did
It?
SENATOR IviJYNIHAN: Yes, s i r. He passed word back to
the White House, "I'll do it this one time, but next
time I need an order."
MR. 1CALB: Did he tell anybody on the Hill that he did
that?
SENATOR N1~YNIHAN: Not that I know of.
MR. ICALB: Well, now, is that consistent with the law
that he'd take an action like that without informing
the committees?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Once the President approves, the
committee had to be informed and it should have been
informed even if the President didn't specifically
approve. That's the issue.
!SIR. KALB: Senator Lugar, do you know whether the
committee was, in fact, informed last November that
this action was being taken?
SENATOR LUGAR: No, at least the Foreign Relations
Committee was not informed. I don't know about the
Intelligence Committee and we had not liaison
information that would give us that thought. I think
we're once again back into this problem of what the
President's requirement is, how timely this
information must be.
When I was briefed by Admiral Poindexter and he said
"timely" could cover ten months or 18 or what have you,
there was a third option as opposed to telling the
leadership, telling the two committees. The third
option, I presume, was at any point that it became
convenient.
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SENATOR MOYNIHAN: That directly violates the spirit
of the law and they knew it.
MR. HUNT: Let me ask you what I think may be the
bottom line question here.
If we were to find out that President Reagan and Vice
President Bush knew about some of this, what are you
al l prepared to do or what would the Congress be
prepared to do? What are the ultimate consequences?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: What you do is, if the President
would come out and say it quickly and clearly and
cleanly and get rld of all the people involved him In
such matters and say, "Well, Mr. President, a mistake
was made. It won't be made again." Right, fine. All
right, let's go on now. Let's keep that going
forward.
M1R. HUNT: Senator Lugar, could you tell me what you
think we're prepared to do if we find that out?
SENATOR LUGAR: Well, I think we're prepared to
indicate that there have got to be checks and balances.
But I think that Senator Moynihan is correct. The
President ultimately will need to testify on what his
policies were. He has great latitude in foreign
policy. When we get into the murky business, whether
law was broken or what have you, probably not, but the
facts are that mistakes were made.
Even if the President felt he was furthering his
policy for terrorism, the hostages, the f~Iiddle East or
Nicaragua, he was in error. These didn't work.
MR. KALB: I'm a little confused here. You're saying
that no law was broken, Senator Lugar. You're saying,
Senator Moynihan, if I read you right, that a law was
broken.
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: Clearly, laws have been broken.
Laws have been shredded.
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MR. KALE: You two both know the law. How can you
disagree on something like that?
SENATOR LUGAR: Well, I don't think we know the facts
altogether. In other words, the shredding business
that has been very prominent could very well have been
routine shredding. If it is shredding of things that
were evidence, that's something else. We don't know
that as yet.
The President's asserting this power to inform the
Congress down the trai 1 . I think Pat and I both feel
this is stretching the law, maybe almost out of shape
but that's his assertion at this point. It clearly
breaks the spirit of it.
What the President must know now, particularly with
Democratic control of both Houses of Congress, that
there is going to have to be a commonty and a sharing
of these operations that this type of activity does
not denote.
MS. MITCHELL: Senator Moynihan, to follow up on what
Al was saying, what are the consequences if they don't
do something quickly, if they don't come clean and
satisfy the committees and perhaps an independent
counsel that they are willing to tell all?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: A protracted paralysis, rancor
plays in the air, failure for what really was going to
be a pretty good Presidency in the sense that people
felt good about it. We don't want that to happen and
you don't, Dick. It needn't, it needn't. He's got
about 48 hours.
Does someone out there or on the plane know? 48 hours
or it will be lost.
NR. KALE: Why 48?
SENATOR NpYNIHAN: Because as of yesterday noon, they
actually thought that this would go away or hadn't
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happened. They've got to make clear that it won't go
away unless they see that It has happened.
X42. HUNT: Senator Lugar, you talk about bringing In
wise people to run this White House. Can you give us
some idea of who you'd like to see as National
Securlty Advisor or as Chief of Staff?
SENATOR LUGAR: Let me give you some examples. I
don't know whether they're available. I'd like to see
Brzezinski, Kissinger, Jean Kirkpatrick, Bobby Ray
Inman, Howard Baker. These people all come to mind.
I don't know whether they're available and where they
fit, but these are examples of big leaguers, I
believe, who know something about foreign policy,
strategic policy, the sorts of advice the President
ought to get.
MS. MITCHELL: We've been told, however, that the
process is that each Cabinet member Is fighting for
someone mediocre, for someone who will not challenge
these vested interests.
SENATOR LUGAR: Precisely, and that's the reason
anybody who is exercising these vetoes ought to be out
of it.
Th i s i s not a t ime for reducing down to the lowest
common denominator to save everybody who's now
exercising veto. That's precisely the problem.
MS. MITCHELL: Let me get back, for a moment, to the
question of the way this White House works. You know
it intimately.
You know Admiral Poindexter as a military man who
takes orders and does not fashion policy. Is it
conceivable to you that he developed this whole thing
on his own?
SENATOR LUGAR: I think it's conceivable and the fact
is that I believe that those people in the Securlty
Council thought they knew the general thrust of what
the President wanted. They knew they had some
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latitude to develop what they wanted to do and they
used It to the Nth degree.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, both of you gentlemen, what does
that tell you about the Presidency of Ronald Reagan?
SENATOR MOYNIHAN: It has not been functioning. It
is, as William F. Buckley said, the last year has been
an absence of law, an absence of order and failure as
Dick Lugar has said.
MS. MITCHELL: And the man Ronald Reagan, the kind of
man who we know i s ve r y good a t making peop l e f ee 1
good, very good at the public relations aspects?
Donald Regan described himself as the shovel brigade,
following up Main Street up the parade.
SENATOR LUGAR: Well, the problem is that It's not
just that. He was involved in the policies that were
being shoveled out. The President has set some good
guidelines. He needs a mighty good staff, however, to
give him the information and the implementation.
MR. KALE: Senators, both of you, thank you very much
for being our guests today and discussing, among other
things, at least as I see it, how very fragile even
the most popular president can be once his competency
and credibility are brought into question.
That's it for now. Thank you all for joining us and
we'll see you next Sunday.
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Declassified in Part - Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/01/11 :CIA-RDP90-009658000403250001-0