A CHAT WITH SPYDOM'S FORMER CHIEF

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP90-00965R000605740096-8
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 2
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: May 18, 2012
• Sequence Number: 96
• Publication Date: July 17, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

r Declassified in Part -Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/05/18 :CIA-RDP90-009658000605740096-8
~~T~~~AP~~Q +~ Cl~IS1IA1v SC1ENc;E rtONITOR
~~ p~ ~~ 17 July 1985
A chat with s ~~~?dom's f ormer c e
Ethical level of CIA falls py transform an idealized view of moralit be-
short tween individuals to a standard of morali y be-
of public expectations, he says tween nations." He notes, too, that the CIA
By Louise Sweeney tried covert action in Indonesia and the Philip-
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor pines, maybe other places, that
Washington didn't work. "And now they've
E are sittin in a clandestine back B~~KS ? ?'~ tried Nicar
g agua," he says. "And it
booth of the Palm Restaurant, where didn't work. As I try to say in the
Stansfield Turner, former director of ~NTERVIEIH book there are limited circum-
central intelligence, is talking about the eti- stances in which all the factors will
queue of bugging: come into play, so that it's possible to finesse
"I have a nervous habit when I wear cuff someone out of his government." Speaking of
links. Sometimes I fiddle with the snap on the the CIA today he says, "They get off the track
back of the cuff links," he begins. He remem- when they think it's a lot easier than it is, like
hers as head of the Central Intelligence Agency Nicaragua."
fitting in the Pans -office of a French contact Turner had commanded adestroyer, amine-
fiddling with the back of one of the blue cuff sweeper, and the whole US Second Fleet, but he
links he was wearing. "Suddenly I saw his eyes balked when he was first asked to head up the
riveted on this cuff link. And I'm CIA. A US Naval Academy graduate and
sure he felt phis oval blue cuff link Rhodes scholar, he was a military careerist who
was a microphone and that Iwas -would have preferred to be chairman of the
turning it on and off." Joint Chiefs of Staff.
In the world of spydom, mutual - But when his President and former Annap-
trust could be shattered by just olis classmate Jimmy Carter asked him to re-
such abreach of-confidence. So Admiral Turner sign as commander of the southern flank of
carefully dropped his hands, the Frenchman NATO to head the CIA, Turner saluted and did
then dropped his guard, and the talk continued it. He took over at a dark time for the agency,
sans intrigue. after the 1975 Church Committee (appointed by
Turner doesn't tell that story in his new Congress in the wake of Watergate revelations
book, "Secrecy and Democracy: The CIA in and press reports of CIA abuses) uncovered
Transition," but he does tell several others that evidence that the agency had indeed spied on
offer an illuminating glimpse into the inner Americans. As a result, the public was deeply
workings of the CIA at a crucial time in its his- critical of the agency. Objectivity, legality, and
tory. The book is also a riveting but subjective restored reputation were the core of Turner's
account of his stewardship, which critics goals for the agency, he notes in his book.
claimed weakenend the agency. Turner in his book stresses the importance
Over a plate of chicken salad, Turner talks of integrity and morality within the framework
shop. He talks about a 36-hour war that started of the CIA. How does tie assess current CIA di-
June 18, 1954, in Guatemala and that served as rector William J. Casey's handling of the
a controversial model for further forays by the agency in this area? "Well, I don't know
CIA. The war was won by a broadcast ploy: A whether it's Casey, whether it's Reagan,
C~iA radio station, camouflaged as a rebels' sta- whether it's the White House, but I think that
lion, broadcast word that anticommunist Col. the mining of Nicaragua, the condoning of an
Carlos Armas had invaded Guatemala from assassination manual on Nicaragua, the shoot-
Honduras with 5,000 men and was sweeping ing up of farmers' trucks going to market in
like General Grant toward the capital in a "peo- Nicaragua, the [alleged] association with a unit
ple's rebellion." In reality, Armas had an - a Lebanese Qroup that ended up truck-bomb-
"army" of 200 bedraggled men plus a few old in 80 innocent le -are all actions that are
aircraft and mercenaries. The mock-rebel radio be ow the ethic eve t at a merican u c
station continued broadcasting frequent bulle- wants to con one m t e name of inte nce."
tins about the army's mythic march and asin- ( e as enied an involvement in e
gle bomb dropped on a parade field in the cap- bom inf.
ital. Communist-leaning President Jacobo ~~~ point the waiter materializes, and Admiral
Arbenz Guzman resigned a day and a half later, Turner asks him to take away what's left of the chicken
while Colonel Armas was still outside the city. salad so he won't eat the rest of it. Self-control. He is a
Admiral Turner ticks off several covert oper- trim-looking man with a crest of silver hair, sea-blue eyes
ations like this, some successful, some unsuc- with a faint sailor's squint, and thick, iron-gray eyebrows
cessful. In his book he defends covert action that rival those of his mentor, Adm. Elmo Zumwalt.
against criticism that it is not moral, arguing, There is no gold braid on his shoulder, but he looks
"These seem to me to be flawed attempts to lime an officer and a gentleman in a tan summer suit,
Declassified in Part -Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/05/18 :CIA-RDP90-009658000605740096-8
 Declassified in Part -Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/05/18 :CIA-RDP90-009658000605740096-8
cream shirt with muted stripes, aacl brown paisley tie.
Admiral Turner sits bolt upright on the blue-green leath-
erette banquette, as though he were reviewing the fleet.
He does not look remotely like George Smiley> John
le Cane's superspook, or Ian Flemings James. Bond or
even Sidney Reilly, the dashing Edwardian hero of the
PBS series "Reilly: Ace of Spies," which he admits he
has a weakness for.
The admiral doesn't believe in the romance of spying.
Of the heroes of le Carte, Fleming, and the American
Charles McGarry - _who_writes thrillers .about the CIA
- Turner says: "They're awfully glamorized. One of the
things .I try to bring out in the book is that the real spy-
ing, the real risky work, is done by what we call..agents,"
usually foreigners recruited to work for the CIA. `'So the
James Bond type of thing where he's always climbing
into a castle or jumping out of airplanes, to the extent it's
done at all, is usually done by somebody else, not by our
CIA people. So there isn't that same thrill-kind-of-thing
they would make you think."
Was it a thriller of a job, being head of the CIA?
No, it was mainly routine, he says. "You made these
ceeasional decisions about something very risky." Most
of the risks, however, were at a different level: "Were you
interpreting the facts right? Were you operating the satel-
.liter right, so they'd see the right things? We only took
half a dozen risks of human life, where if we made a deci-
sion, `Yes, we'll do that,.' somebody might get killed."
.Did anyone get killed?
"Nope. They made it. Made it every time."
In his novel "The Honorable Schoolboy," John
le Carne writes of the British intelligence service: "To ev-
ery closed society there is an inside and an outside." Did
Stansfield Turner, who was sharply attacked by some
CIy4 insiders for being azrogant and insensitive in his
personnel cuts, ever feel like an insider himself?
"I never became an insider in the sense that my initial
reactions would be the same as a professional's," he
says. "I happen to think that it's important to have that
detachment at that particular time ... , when change
was necessary...." Among the changes he made was
giving more career opportunities to women at the CIA,
"which had been a male bastion for years."
Turner wrote "Secrecy and Democracy" over a 2'/r
yeaz period on a word processor, then found himself en-
meshed for. months with the CIA over its censorship of
100 passages. He says the agency was "arbitrary and az-
rogant" in its attitude, forcing him to delete even infor-
mation already in print, including quotations from
Jimmy Cazter's books and Turner's own public
speeches.
"I still support the review process; I'm very intent on
keeping secrets," but the .intelligence community itself
should investigate and reform that process, he says.
He is about to dash off to his next interview but an-
swers one final question, about whether he misses being
king of spookdom: ' `Oh, yes, you do when a lot of things
are going on in the world. You wish= you knew the inside
of what's happening ... ," says the Washington insider
who's now outside. ~...~ .
.C.
Declassified in Part -Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/05/18 :CIA-RDP90-009658000605740096-8