HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON STANDARDS OF OFFICIAL CONDUCT HEARINGS ON HOUSE RESOLUTION 1042

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 121
• Document Creation Date: December 19, 2016
• Document Release Date: November 27, 2006
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: July 26, 1976
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
STANDARDS OF OFFICE CONDUCT
xEARINGS Oro MOUSE RESOLUTION 1042
Monday, July 26, 1976
Washington, D. C.
Official Reporters to Committees
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C 0 N T E N T- S
Honorable Robert N. Giaimo
Representative in Congress from
the State of California
Mr. Gergory G. Rushford
Ms. Susan Poor
Accompanied by:
Mr. Michael Greenberg, Counsel
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HEARINGS ON HOUSE RESOLUTION 1042
4 If Monday, July 26, 1976
House of Representatives
Committee on Standards of
Official Conduct
Washington, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:00 a.m.
in Room 2212, Rayburn House Office Building, Honorable
John J. Flynt, Jr. (Chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Flynt, Price, Bennett,
Spence, Quillen, Hutchinson, Quie, Mitchell, and Cochran
Also present: John M. Swanner, Staff Director;
John Marshall, Legal Counsel; David Bowers, Investigator;
Harvey Harkness, Associate Counsel; Jay Jaffe, Staff
Member; Andrew Whalen, Staff Counsel; Miss Jan Loughry,
Staff Counsel; Robert Carr, Associate Counsel.
STAT
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Mr. Flynt. The committee will come to order.
A quorum is present for the purpose of taking testimony
and hearing evidence.
The first witness before the committee today is our
colleague from Connecticut, the Honorable Robert N. Giaimo.
Mr. Giaimo, will you please raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this committee in the matters now under consideration
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT N. GIAIMO,
A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF
CONNECTICUT
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Giaimo, do you have a statement which
you wish to make?
Mr. Giaimo. No, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Do you have any documents which you would wish
to present to the committee in addition to what you have
already given to us?
Mr. Giaimo. No. I submitted to you and to the committee
the totality of the documents which I had. I did not bring
them along with me today because they were returned to me,
and I didn't think you wanted them.
Mr. Flynt. They were returned to you. And if we need
them, I assume we can, of course, have them back?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir.
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Mr. Flynt. We thank you for your appearance before the
committee and for making the documents available to us.
Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Giaimo, prior to the hearing you have
received copies of House Resolutions 1042 and 1054, as well
as copies of the Rules of this committee, copies of the
Investigative Procedures and the Chairman's opening statement,
is that not correct, sir?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Giaimo, in the event your evidence
or testimony may involve, information or data concerning an
.executive session of the Select Committee on Intelligence,
or classified information, or information which may tend to
defame, degrade, or incriminate any person, please advise
this committee so that it may take timely and appropriate action
under the Rules of the House of Representatives.
Mr. Giaimo, you were a member of the Select Committee,
is that correct?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Was this from the very beginning
of the committee?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir. I in fact was the author of the
resolution, you will recall, which set up the committee. I
was the author of that by virtue of the fact that I was on
the Steering Committee -- Steering and Policy Committee
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of the Democratic Majority, which recommended the establish-
ment of this committee. So I handled that legislation for
the Steering Committee through the Floor.
Mr. Marshall. And when you say you were the author
of the legislation setting up the committee, was this the
original resolution?
Mr.Giaimo. Yes, the original resolution which set up
the committee, which we can refer to as the Nedzi Committee.
Mr. Marshall. Did you have anything to do with House
Resolution 591, which was a subsequent resolution, also in-
volving the committee?
Mr. Giaimo. Well, I don't recall clearly now what
my role in it was. Certainly I was very much involved in
it. You mean in the reconstitution of the committee.
Mr. Marshall. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. Giaimo. Well, I certainly was very much involved
in all of the dealings that went on there, and negotiations.
But formally, I do not recall what role I played on the
Floor. I do not think -- I just don't recall that I
directly handled anything on that.
Mr. Marshall. Now, you, of course, as a member of the
Select Committee, were aware that the committee had adopted
certain rules and regulations governing the handling of
classified information and classified documents containing
classified information?
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Mr. Giaimo. Yes, and I helped to draft those rules.
Mr. Marshall. Juding by your experience as a member
of the Select Committee, could you give this committee the
benefit of your views as to whether those rules and regulations
were followed by the Select Committee members, and by the
Select Committee staff?
Mr. Giaimo. What you are asking me is in my opinion
whether or not we followed the rules protecting classified
documents?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, that is right. And the classified
information in those documents.
Mr. Giaimo. And classified. information in those
documents.
Mr. Marshall. Just by way of explanation, some witnesses
have made a distinction or apparent distinction between
handling of the documents themselves and handling the classified
information in those documents, and I thought I might point that
out to you.
Mr. Giaimo. I was going to make the same distinction,
because if you are referring to the handline of classified
information, of which there was a great deal of classified
information that was sent to the committee, and which was
worked on by the staff, and seen by some of the Members,
I do not have any evidence that that was handled improperly
or with lack of concern for security.
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So that in my opinion, I would have to say I do not
know of anything which endangered security. I understand that
almost all if not all of it was returned. In fact, as you
recall, and was testified by Chairman Pike, when the CIA,
I believe, indicated that much of the classified information
was missing, it was later found to be in their possesssion.
So to my knowledge, I don't know that there was any carelessness
or lack of concern for classified information.
Now, insofar as the document was concerned, the
document being our report, again, I do not know that that
was handled in any way which was less than prudent or careful.
But I do want to stress this difference. And I am a good
example of this. That in dealing with that committee report,
and in handling that committee report, at no,time that I
feel that I was dealing with a classified document. And there-
fore, we treated it as a working paper. We carried it,
right in this very room in fact -- it was presented to us in
this room, we worked on it, we amended and changed it. And
it was nota classified document. In fact, it was a document
which we had every intention of publishing. And as you know,
it was only until that last week when we were forbidden and
prohibited by the House, that then we clearly abided,
and I did, by the will of the House, and felt that this is a
document which cannot be published. Now, at all times I
personally had my own copy, nad the times when I had it I
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secured it in my own security system, which is my safe.
Mr.Flynt. Do you think it was either appropriate or proper
for it to be given to the news media prior to filing with
the House?
Mr. Giaimo. No, no, sir. I do not think so. But, of
course, I do not think -- I think that would be inappropriate
to give it to the news media in any event, whether it was
a classified -- well, certainly if it were a classified
document, it would be inappropriate to give it to the news
media. But even if it were not, even if it had nothing in it
which endangered security, it would have violated our rule
of prior release.
Mr. Flynt. And also the executive session rules.
Mr. Giaimo. And also the executive session rules of
the committee. So that, no, it should not have been released.
And I have to reiterate what I heard here in testimony the
other day,. that the relase of it, in my opinion, injured the
very serious and important work of this committee.
Mr. Marshall. How did that injure the work of the
committee?
Mr. Giaimo. Because I think what happened as a result
of the release of the report to Daniel Schorr, whether it
was done by whomever -- and I have no idea whether it was the
Congress that did it, or Congressmen, or staff members,
or the Executive Branch -- the fact is in my opinion that,
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you know, whenever something like this happens, in the law,
we ask who benefits, and I certainly don't think that
Congress benefited from the Schorr release. I think what
happened was it impeded a job which I think must be done,
and that is to re-establish adequate and proper oversight
over the intelligence community. And the release of this
document created an atmosphere, both in Congress and in the
public, that Congress cannot be trusted to properly have access
to secret and classified activities. Now, this is a very
dangerous, very dangerous position to be put into. I am hoping
that we are going to evolve and work out of this. We already
have to agree, as you know. The Senate has established
an independent oversight committee. I am hopeful that the
House is going to see the wisdom of this, and if not this
year, certainly next year, and certainly with the recommendation
from this committee, and also the recommendations from the
Select Committee which you know were made in a part of that
report, and also the interest that I know exists in the
Rules Committee in this area, I am hopeful that the House
will follow the route of the Senate :and establish an intelligence
community, oversight committee. I think it is very essential,
because I have witnessed.for some years now, and this was
the reason for my interest in becoming a member of this
Select Committee -- I have witnessed the danger that can
come about from excessive secretness in government. And it
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concerns me.
The Chairman and I serve on the Defense Subcommittee
of Appropriations together, where we are privy to a great
deal of information. And I have great concern that we have
allowed over the last 25 years secretness in government to
become the reason for its own existence, and it poses a
danger to the American people, which is of concern to me.
We have seen this in recent years. We saw it when I was
told by people in the Executive Branch that we were not conduct-
ing a secret war in Cambodia, and in fact we were.
That is of great concern to me. The Angola situation and many of the other incidents which are in our report,
which do not jeopardize national security, but which the
American should know their government has done, and which in
my opinion the government did unwisely.
Now, we have got to re-establish this kind of Congressional
control over secret intelligence agencies.
Mr. Flynt. I would like to ask a question at that
point. Now, of course, the Central Intelligence Agency
has a variety of roles and missions. There is some question
as to whether all of those roles and missions are clearly
defined in the charter of the CIA.
Mr. Giaimo. True.
Mr. Flynt. Now, on the question of the espionage activities
engaged in by the CIA, which many people believe was the
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original basis for the establishment of that agency as the
focal point of organized intelligence activities of the
United States -- now, as to the espionage activities carried
on by the CIA -- and let me, if I may, preface that statement
by saying this -- preface that question by saying this:
Espionage s a dirty business. There is no way that I know
of to clean it up. Persons who engage in it recognize that thei
lives are laid on the line when they enter into it. Now, as
regards the espionage portion of the intelligence gathering
capability of the CIA, do you feel that those activities should
be made public?
Mr. Giaimo. No way, no, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Now, would you elaborate?
Mr. Giaimo. We have no disagreement, Mr. Chairman.
Let me just back up and say I have a great deal of respect
for the CIA. I think they have done an excellent job.
I also think that the former Director, who was the one that
we dealt with in most instances, Mr. Colby, was an outstanding
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. But this
predates Mr. Colby, and it goes back over many years. It goes
back to the days of Mr. Helms, it goes back before that, it
goes back to the Cuban situation, the Bay of Pigs, and even
before that. And you recall obviously from your statement
the difficulty when the Central Intelligence Agency was
set up in the days of Harry Truman, who they were given
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a mission, but then there was that catch-all phrase which
broadened the mission. I have absolutely no objection,
in fact, I recognize the necessity for an intelligence function.
I even go beyond that to the counter-intelligence function,
and all that that involves. That isn't the problem.
Any nation in the world today must have that capability.
And we have it, and we must make certain that it is a good
capability. And Ithink the CIA which handles not only CIA
functions -- but the head of it acts as the Director
for Central Intelligence for all of the agency's functions
as well.
I think where we began to get in trouble was not in
intelligence gathering, or in counter-intelligence, but in
covert actions.
Now, What are covert actions? Covert actions are implement-
ing secretly policies of the U. S. of a political or
para-military nature covertly. There may be occasions when
they are justified, and have to be used, mostly in a wartime
period, in my opinion. And there is no problem with them
in wartime. It happens in peacetime, over the last 20 years,
if you will watch the growth of covert actions, you will
find that in fact,' what the United States began to do was
to do covertly what it no longer wished to do openly, and it
began to interfere covertly in the activities, political
activities, in other countries. This is a dangerous road.
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And more than that, it is secret government.
Let me just give you one clear example from recent
days.
The question of U. S. involvement in Angola, just this past
year. Perhaps we should have been involved in Angola, perhaps
we should not have been involved. But the question of whether
the U. S. should be involved in Angola is one of governmental
policy, which the American people should know about and be able
to ratify or disaffirm, so that the government would at least
know how its people felt about an involvement in another
country.
Now, if we do that openly, our involvement in Angola,
then the people know, and they can react as they reacted
for example and indicated their displeasure with our involvement
in Southeast Asia. But if these things are done in secret--
and I am not going to state here whether in fact they were
done or not, although I think it is quite well known as to
what our role in Angola was -- if these things are done
in secret, then the American people cannot ratify or dis-
affirm because they do not know what their government is
doing. That would be a covert action. And that is dangerous,
and I think wrong.
Mr. Flynt. Now, are you saying that the United States
should not participate in the Angolan situation -- period?
Mr. Giaimo. I am saying that if the U. S. wanted to
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involve itself in the Anqolan situation, it should do so
openly, so that its people know what it is doing, and therefore
the people can affirm or disaffirm what the U. S. Government
is doing.
Mr. Flynt. All right.
Now, getting back --
Mr. Giaimo. The same with other countries in Europe.
Mr. Flynt. Getting back to the intelligence gathering
mission, the espionage mission which we discussed a moment
ago, did you gain the impression that there were members
of the staff of the Select Committee who felt that they wanted
to disclose the espionage activities of the United States?
Mr. Giaimo. No, sir. In fact, I think all in all the
committee and the report was very careful -- I recall from
some of the changes which we made -- of course, you have been
told how we went over the report, and the changes with CIA,
and they make recommendations for changes, and so forth --
I recall that we tried to be careful to make certain that
intelligence.operations were not jeopardized. I could
even give you a specific example which I couldn't do in
open session. But in closed session, you have probably been
told about it, where we took particular steps to change
the report to protect the source of information.
But you know, a lot of loose talk came in about those
days. People, for example, indicated, some Members indicated--
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not members of the committee, but Members of Congress,
when we had the debate on the Floor, that names of agents,
for example, were involved. well, of course not. And certainly
I would have objected violently, as we all would have,
to that type of disclosure. And that was not involved.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Giaimo, you stated that you viewed
the working draft of the Select Committee's report as a working
paper, and that there was the thought that this was going
to be made public at some future date.
Mr. Giaimo. Yes.
In other words, it was not a classified document.
Mr. Marshall. Was there any classified information in
the Select Committee's draft of its report, either the January
19th draft or as modified and changed as it wound up in the
January 23rd draft?
Mr. Giaimo. I suppose that there was. I have great
difficulty with this question of what is classified and what
is not because, you know -- in other words, if this is a
classified document, and this is put in verbatim, then yes.
But what about the information which I gleaned from reading
classified information. I believe it has been testified
by our Chairman that there was classified information -- you
can correct me if I am wrong. But I think it was information
that we as a committee overwhelmingly decided should be made
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public, and that it did not and would not jeopardize
the national security.
Mr. Marshall. Did you think that the reasons underlying
the original classification of the information were adequately
made aware to the committee so that it could reach a
decision that was fully informed before the declassified
information?
Mr. Giaimo. I believe they were, to the best that you can
ever accomplish that task, and that would be, you know, to go
into the reasons why thousands of documents were originally clas
sified substantially, yes -- in every case, no.
Mr. Marshall. Now, where were you, sir, when you received
your. draft of January 19, 1976?
Mr. Giaimo. Was the 19th that Friday?
Mr. Marshall. The 19th was on a Monday.
Mr. Giaimo. All right. That was the Monday of the last
week that we met. And we warpped it up Friday. And then we
met again the following Monday, didn't we?
Mr. Marshall. All right. January 19th was Monday.
Mr. Giaimo. What was the`date we went to the Rules
Committeee? Was that the next day, or a week later?
Mr. Marshall No, sir, that was a week later, I
believe.
Mr. Giaimo. Okay. So the 19th was the last week of our
markup, and we met in here every day from the 19th to that
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Friday, which was the 23rd.
Mr. Marshall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Giaimo. All right.
Where was I when I received my draft on the 19th?
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Giaimo. I --
Mr. Marshall. What I am trying to get at was how was
the original draft distributed to the Select Committee?
Was it delivered personally to you -- to the Members of the
Select Committee? Was it delivered personally to you?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes. The reason I am hesitating is because
there was one instance where the draft was delivered to me
personally in my office by a committee member. I am not sure
that that was on the 19th. I think it was, because from then
on, I had possession of the draft, and came here each day and
carried it with me, and would leave it here, rather, and
they would make the Changes that we had agreed on that day, and
it would be presented to me the following morning here.
Mr. Marshall. What about the draft of January 23rd,
which was the final draft?
Mr. Giaimo. The final draft. My recollection is that
I carried that final draft back to the office with me,
and kept it from then on, and I am not so sure that I got
some of the latest changes that were put into it as
a result. But they were -- I don't recall the nature of those
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changes. But I think I kept -- in fact, I know I kept
the draft on the 23rd.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Giaimo, the reason I am asking the
question is we are trying to trace the location of each of the
drafts and any changes to determine if there was careless
handling of the drafts or information which was classified.
Mr. Giaimo. My recollection is that on the 23rd, which
was the Friday, and the last day that we marked up, that I
took the draft back to my office.
Mr. Marshall. Now, Mr. Daniel Schorr stated in an
article in the Rolling Stone, on April 8, 1976, that he had
possession of a draft of the Select Committee's report
on January 25, 1976. Now, did you give this report or a draft
of the report to Mr. Schorr or to any other person?
Mr. Giaimo. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who did?
Mr. Giaimo. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever
of the circumstances surrounding the publication of the
report or draft or any part thereof -- that is the publication
to unauthorized persons, such as the media, or outside
the committee?
Mr. Giaimo. No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who has such knowledge
Mr. Giaimo. No, I do not.
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Mr. Marshall. Did you give the report --
Mr. Giaimo. Except I read in the last few days that a
copy of the report was.given to the CIA by one of the Members
of the committee.
Mr. Marshall. Did you give the report or a draft
of the Select Committee's report or make any part of the
Select Committee's report available to anyone outside of the
Select Committee on Intelligence?
Mr. Giaimo. No, I did not. The reason I hesitate there
is that I think I have told your investigators that I had
a discussion about portions of the draft with a member
of the Executive Branch, an Ambassador, who had access to
information in the report, had access to the report, obviously
from the CIA, and we did discuss some of the points that
he thought might be injurious, and we subjequently changed
the report to take care of those concerns.
Mr. Marshall. Was this discussion taking place prior
to the January 23rd report?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, yes, because we incorporated those
changes into the report, either on the 23rd -- I think it
was the 23rd -- either the 23rd or the 22nd. But it was that
week that I discussed this with him.
Mr. Marshall. Let me ask you this: Did you read the
Village Voice version of the report?
Mr. Giaimo. I scanned it. I took a quick look at it.
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But quite honestly, I didn't read the whole thing. And more
importantly, I did not read it with a comparison to try to -- it
was just too much of a job.
Mr. Marshall. Directing your attention to the discussions
you had, that you have just described about a part of the
report that was finally changed in the January 23rd draft,
do you remember whether the Village Voice contained the
draft as originally put out before your discussions with
the Ambassador, or whether those changes were in it?
Mr. Giaimo. No, I do not recall. But that would be
easy to check.
Mr. Marshall. Would it be possible for that to be
checked, sir, outside of these hearings, and to ask you,
since you were the only one privy to those discussions, to
advise this committee?
Mr. Giaimo. Sure. I do not have a copy of the Village Voice
but you do.
Mr. Marshall. We have a copy or two around here.
Mr. Giaimo. As a matter of fact, the report that I turned
over to you had some of the information, some additional
papers, which were given to me by CIA, which listed some
of the objections, and if we went through those, I think we
could see where the changes were made. I recall one of the
changes made reference to a country which we deleted.
Yes,.we could follow that through.
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Mr. Marshall. If you have just a few moments, and if
you would be willing to confer with a member of our staff,
we would like to check that out.
Mr. Giaimo. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Finally --
Mr. Mitchell. Will counsel yield? I was thinking over
the weekend that no one has been able to identify the
Village Voice copy with any other copies that were in
existence. And one of the reasons was because two pages were
missing. I think it would be a very simple thing to remove
two pages from any kind of a document. Could we make a compari-
son with the Village Voice version -- assuming that two pages
were not missing, and then compare it with existing documents.
I think that might prove very fruitful.
Mr. Marshall. We have that comparison.
Mr. Mitchell. Thank you.
Mr. Marshall. Finally, did you give the report --
excuse me.
Do you know of anyone who made the report of the
Select Committee or a draft of the report before the Select
Committee available to someone outside of the Select Committee
on Intelligence?
Mr. Giaimo. Do I know of anyone who did? No, I don-.'t.
Well, copies of the report were obviously available to people
in the Executive Branch.
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Mr. Marshall. The CIA and so forth, as has been
testified.
Mr. Giaimo. No question. I cannot prove who did it, but
I felt confident, as we were going along, that some of our
colleagues certainly were in close communication with people
in the Executive Branch.
Mr. Marshall. My question really refers to communications
outside of the exchange that may have been going on between
the Executive Branch and the Select Committee on Intelligence
as to what should be published, what changes should be made,
things beyond those communications, or in addition to those
communications.
Mr. Giaimo. No, I do not, except as I said earlier, that
I think --. the publication of this information injured
the committee and the committee's work. No question about it in
my mind.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Price.
Mr. Price. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Spence.
Mr. Spence. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Giaimo, talking about Angola a little bit earlier, --
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Spence. As to whether or not we should have
been involved, I think you said in any event, it should be
done in public, so the people could affirm or ratify
the action. Aside from whether we should or should not have
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been involved, do you think we have time, Congress has
time, or the Executive has time, to debate before tleAmerican
people, and just how would they ratify it?
Mr. Giaimo. Well, of course the question you are
asking me goes to the very roots of government. And it is
to that issue that I give greater concern than I do to anything
else. Our founding father cautioned us about an all-powerful
government. We Americans, in our trusting way, seem to have
at times forgotten that lesson, and we seem to encourage
all-powerful governments, and we only have to look back less
tha n a decade to see the threats which could come about
.from an all- from all-powerful government.
Now, we have got to take steps at all times to protect
ourselves against this. And this is the reason why I insist
the Congress must know what is going on in secret in government,
because otherwise how can we protest, how can we say stop?
And the Angola situation would make a perfect case. You say
there might not be time to have a debate. The alternative,
then, is that the people know nothing, and government decides
what course of policy we shall engage in as a nation. And
that, to me, is the end of democracy.
Now, if you have agencies that can do that, and if you
encourage them, I assume you history teaches us. that it will
be but a short time before those secret involvements take
place in a Chile, in an Angola, in a Cambodia, in a Bangladesh,
 z 11 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 612
or where have you, and before you know it, they will bein
to take place in New York, in Chicago, in North Haven,
Connecticut, or elsewhere. And that scares the living daylights
out of me. This is why I believe that any secret agency has
to be held on an extremely short tight leash.
Mr. Spence. You are talking about all-powerful government.
And I share your concern. But we talk about the Executive
being all-powerful, or could wealso be talking about Congress?
What is all-powerful government?
Mr. Giaimo. All right. You know, I wish that I could
worry about the all-powerfulness of Congress, but quite
frankly, I don't think you have to worry about that at all.
ongress, if anything, lacks power. So I just don't think that
you have to worry about an all-powerful Congress. The last time
Congress was all-powerful was in the days of Thaddeus Stevens,
I think, and ever since then it hasn't been, and look at the
mess it got into then. But today you have to worry about
an all-powerful Executive. And certainly in the 18 years I have
been down here, I have seen all-powerful Executives, and
it concerns me.
Mr. Spence. Well, it is debatable -- the people in the
public, when they think of all-powerful government, most of
them are thinking, I think, about regulations, rules, laws,
taxes passed and all the rest. That is what I get complaints
about.
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Mr. Giaimo. That is true.
Mr. Spence.; Getting back to Angola, as a matter of
fact, didn't we do just as you suggested? We did take it
out into the public, and didn't Congress then overrule what
the Executive did?
Mr. Giaimo. But do you know that we only did that
because there was a leak of American involvement in Angola?
There wasa leak. There has never even been an admission to
this date as to whether or not the U. S. was involved that I
know of. But there was a leak, and itwas that leak which
stimulated Congress. I was part of that activity. I recall
it well. It was only that leak which stimulated Congress to
say no more.
Mr. Spence. In any event, rightly or wrongly, that
action on the part of Congress is given as the reason why Angola
went Communist.
Mr. Giaimo. Oh, well, that is not so at all. I don't
know the reason why Angola went Communist. I am not even
certain that Angola has gone Communist. I do not know what
they have gone over there. We have three tribes fighting
each other.
But that isn't the point. The opposite of that would be
we should have become involved in order that Angola not become
Communist. Now, even if we should, maybe we should have
been in Angola. The point is who decides whether we should be
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 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
in Angola, Henry Kissinger, or the American people?
Mr. Spence. How could the American people decide?
Mr. Giaimo. How can they decide if they don't know
the facts, and if they are not informed?
Mr. Spence. Do you have a big town meeting of everybody
in the country and debate it?
Mr. Giaimo. Thatis what our founding fathers said. Our
founding fathers did not say that the Committee of Forty,
and the President, and a few other people, should quietly
sit in a room and decide we are going into Cambodia, we are
going into Laos, we are going to go into Angola, or elsewhere?
That is not the government that I have learned about and
serve.
Mr. Spence. Well, there again, it is debatable as to
who should conduct foreign policy, whether the Congress as a
whole, the American people as a whole, or the Executive, and
how much everybody can be in on the conduct of foreign policy.
Mr. Giaimo. I do not think it is debatable that foreign
policy should be conducted in secret, and that American foreign
policy should be kept a secret from its people, and from
their representatives in Congress. I do not think it was
right when the Secretary of Defense or of the Air Force --
I think it was of the Air Force, told us, in a committee
24 II some years ago, that we were not bombing in Cambodia, and invol,
there, when in fact we were. Now, once you go down that road
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
615
in government, you do not have democracy. And you cannot justify
this under the cover of expediency, or quickness. You say,
can you have a town meeting? Yes, you have a town meeting.
If you want to see the greatest town meeting we have
had in my lifetime, it was the town meeting that took years
as to what we should be doing and should not do in Southeast
Asia. That was a town meeting.
Mr. Spence. Over a long period of time.
Mr. Giaimo. And ,I come from a state which was the daddy
f town meetings up in New England. We still have them in
Mr. Spence. That is all I have.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Bennett.
Mr. Bennett. I am certainly inclined to agree with the
thrust of your testimony, that covert operations should be
kept at a minimum. I am even open-minded to the idea
that possibly they should be prohibited. I have some worry
about the way in which the report was handled, as if, since
secret information was involved in it, a committee of Congress,
or a majority of members of Congress-- of a committee of
Congress -- should have presented Congress with a situation
of having to close up and not publish a report which they had
not read. But that is history, and Lord knows, I have made
my share of mistakes. And I do feel there was some sort
of a mistake made in that type of presentation.
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
But I understand your principal thrust. And I must say
I agree with your principal thrust. And I am a member of the
CIA Committee. And I have been a member of the CIA Committee
for many years. I was not a member for a while, not because
I did not want to be on it, but I was sort of a thorn in the
side of a lot of people then, by being critical of what I though
indicated intervention in foreign affairs in a secret manner
that was damaging to our country.
Now that I have been put back on the committee by
the elections last year, I pursued that same type of criticism.
I wish that I had a firm, hard definitive answer as to
whether there ever ought to be covert operations.
My guess is this country has suffered more from covert
operations than they have ever gained by it. And they are not
new. As a matter of fact, there was a secret meeting of
Congress in the early 1800s which was designed to take over
Florida. U. S. troops were sent down in the early 1800s.
It was a fiasco. In fact, the most prominent book on this
subject is called The Florida Fiasco, written by Rembert
Patrick.
I just don't have very many illustrations in my knowledge--
and I am a student of history -- that indicate that
covert operations by our country have been beneficial. And I
think somebody ought to make a study of it, and see if any of
them ever have been. I doubt if they ever have been.
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22
Thank you very much for your contribution.
Mr. Giaimo., If I may just comment, I agree with you,
Mr. Bennett, and I know you are a student of history, and
concerned about the excessive powers of government. I am
troubled, like you are. I haven't decided in my own mind
whether we should eliminate all covert activities, because
I can foresee, I said earlier, certainly in wartime -- but
that is not really a good test, because in wartime we do many,
many things which we are prohibited from doing in peacetime.
But even in peacetime it is conceivable that there may be some
emergency situations where we must perform a covert action.
And perhaps we should. But in most instances, I don't think
they have been successful. In most instances they have deterred
America from the great role which America had in its relations
with other countires, in that we dealt from a moral base.
This was always our strength. Now we have lost that in
recent years. I think it is a mistake. And therefore, they
look at us, you know, in other countries, the emerging radical
groups, if you will -- but these are the emerging groups in
Latin American countries, and in some European countries --
take a look at Italy, about which I know a great deal. And
the first thing they think of when they think of the United
States, is CIA, and covert actions. This isn't serving our
cause or our purpose. And we ought to really reanalyze it.
Now the difficulty is when you make it easy to do, when
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 618
you institutionalize covert actions as we have, then you
are giving an easy weapon to an all-powerful Executive.
And that is what I think is dangerous, and can get us
into trouble, and can jeopardize our liberties. That is my
concern.
Mr. Bennett. I have no further questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Quillen.
Mr. Quillen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Giaimo, if secret operations of our intelligence
agencies were made known to committees of the Congress, don't
you think the same thing would. happen as happened in the
deliberations of the Select Committee on Intelligence, that
there would be leaks?
Mr. Giaimo. Well, I don't know that they came from the
committee.
Mr.Qiillen. I am not saying they did, either. But
at the same time, when information is known generally, there
tends to be leaks.
Mr. Giaimo. Yes. But, you know, we are talking about
a great big government here, and we are concerned about the
leaks which can come about from some number of Congressmen,
or Senators, 435, and 100. But you know, there are many
thous:andsin the Executive Branch who have access to this
information. And Ido not place a greater reliability or trust
on someone because he works in the Executive
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Branch than I do on one who works in the Congress, and who
is a member of Congress.
The answer, I think, is yes, it is difficult. But the
alternative is that Congress does not know of the secret
workings of government. And to me that is more dangerous than
the fact that a secret bit of information will out.
Now, you have got a balancing problem here. All of
this involves a very serious balance. One is the need
for secrecy by government, in its intelligence functions,
which are, as I said to the Chairman -- which are valid
and necessary. There is a need for secrecy in many of
government's acts. But you do have to balance that with
how does this secrecy jeopardize the rights and privileges
of the American people. And we have seen, just in the last few
years, that those rights have been jeopardized, and infringed
So you have to have that balance. And the only way I
can see that you are going to have some control is for
Congress to know now.
Now, Congressional committees have been privy to a lot
of this information. I serve on an Appropriations Committee
of Defense, which is privy to almost all of this information,
all of it. You gentlemen serve on -- many of you -- on
committees that are privy to this information. I don't know
of any leaks. And I haven't witnessed leaks over the years
from either the Armed Services Committee or the Appropriations
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 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Committee. We have this leak of a report, not a classified
document, but a report, and even that I do not know who
leaked it. It could be the committee, it could have been the
Executive Branch -- I don't know. But I think you have to
run that risk.
Now, on the other hand, I have witnessed many, many,
many leaks in my 18 years in Congress, and most of them have
come from the Executive Branch, and most of them have come
from Cabinet members in the Executive Branch.
When they do it, of course, it is not a leak -- it is
an accepted mode of informing the public, and not doing it
directly. Now, we all know that has been done, and it
has been done by every Secretary of State since I can
remember. And in fact, when they do it, you see, it becomes
a declassification, an automatic declassification.
Mr. Quillen. I think what we are really finding here,
.not only today, but during these hearings, that othercommittees
have strict regulations as to the handling of classified
material, whereas maybe the Select Committee on Intelligence
handled it loosely.
Mr. Giaimo. I do not know that that is so. That is
a finding you will, have to make.
Mr. Quillen. I am not stating that as a statement of.
fact, but just from testimony.
Mr. Giaimo. I was not that close to the staff
 24
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observation so I would be able to observe whether that
is a fact or not. That is a finding I cannot make.
But you know -- you seem to be talking about tl-,e release
of classified information. I think you have a real job
to do here, and that will be in your recommendations, as
to how to solve this problem. How do we handle this very
sensitive area that we have to get into as a Congress -- how
do we handle it and handle it properly, so that we do not
jeopardize the legitimate secret functions of government.
But the concern should not be with how do you write rules
to classify -- to keep secret information secret. I think
your biggest problem -- because we have plenty of rules for
that right now, and even we Congressmen are under a rule
that we have to be careful how we declassify or publish
it. But your real big problem is going to be what does a
Congressman do when he finds out that something has been
done'.thatis wrong -- how does he perform his constitutional duty
to inform his colleagues in the Congress? That is the real
tough nut. And our rules are very weak in this area,
In other words, I find out, for example, that we were
conducting a secret war in Cambodia. Do I become, because
I found that out, in secret, it violates my concept of what
my government should be doing -- how do I inform you, my
colleagues? There has to be a way -- whether it is a
secret session of the House, which I understand the rules
are very difficult to obtain, or some other way. But
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622
we do have to figure out what do we do when we become privy
to secret information, how do we protect it and at the
same time inform our colleagues, so that they know about it, and
can make a congressional decision about it? Any light that
you can shed on that is going to be helpful. And I knowyour
Rules Committee, Mr. Quillen, is concerning itself with that,
as it should, because our rules, I think, are weak.
Mr. Quillen. You have made a good point. The Select
Committee probably was set up with misgivings, restructured,
so to speak, a second time, and then went into operation.
Maybe it was just an ill omen all the way through. The last
time a secret session was held in the House was back in 1807.
Maybe those sessions should be held more often. I would like
to submit this for the record. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. Without objection.
(The information follows:)
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Mr. Giamo. Well, you know that the Senate had a
secret session. ."I believe, this past year. I think it was on
Angola, in fact.
Mr. Quillen. Actually, I had some information in my
possession that night and had intended to make a motion for a
secret session had the Young amendment failed. But we are here
today as a mandate of Congress. Overwhelmingly, more than
two to one, they said -- the House said -- the report should
not be released. And now we are trying to find out what
happened.
We certainly respect your views, and they ring really a
responsive chord throughout the nation. But somehow the
Members of Congress and committees of Congress, and staff
members must abide by the classified document regulations that
we, as members, abide by.
Maybe out of this will come some fine recommendations.
But we need to out our finger on who leaked the report..
Mr. Giaimo. No question about that. And there is no
question of what you said, that we cannot develop a system here
where any one of 435 Congressmen can just merely decide for
himself what he will keep secret and what he won't. But there
has to be some rule whereby Congress and members of it can
object to secret activities which they consider wrong.
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 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
STAT
Mr. Quillen. There is one thing that has been bothering
me about your testimony. You have repeatedly said that there
was no classified material in the report and that it was
prepared to be released. Maybe you didn't say "no classified
material in the report." You said the report itself was not
classified.
Mr. Giaimo. That is right. I believe it did have
classified material in there, or information which was gleaned
from reading --
Mr. Quillen. From classified material. Does this make
the whole report classified, in your opinion?
Mr. Giaimo. No, I don't think so -- no. Because I
think what you do there, you see, is Congress or a committee
of Congress is making a determination and saying, "We are
going to publish our thoughts and views on this."
I have to go back to specific examples. The secret war
in Cambodia is a good one. When we found out about that
in Congress, we published it, in effect, and therefore we
published what was a secret. And I am sure they had all kinds
of security stamps on everything that was going on in Cambodia.
They even kept it from the Secretary of the Air Force, as
I recall. He didn't know the war was going on. But at
that point we published what was theretofore a secret. There
are times when you are going to have to do that. The
question is how do you do it. Should one Congressman have
 22
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the right to do it? I am not so sure. But he should have a
way to inform his colleagues.
Mr. Quillen. There should be a method.
Mr. Giaimo. There should be a method.
Now, let me tell you -- I have sat up many a night
thinking about these problems for years, because they are
troublesome ones. There may come a time when something happens
that I become privy to will so shock my conscience I feel I
have to talk about it and tell the people what their government
is doing. In that case, sure, I have the right, under the
Constitution, to get in the well of the House and say it. And
can't be questioned in any other place. I sure as heck can
e questioned by my colleagues. And I may even be thrown out
of Congress. And at that point, I would have to make the
decision -- what is more important. Now, that is dangerous,
because what you are doing is setting yourself up as the sole
arbiter of what is right and wrong, good or bad, and that should
e done very carefully.
But I certainly can see where one felt that in good
conscience he had to take to the well and speak out, even
though he destroyed his own career.
But let's hope that we don't have to, and that we have
other avenues developed where we can inform our committees
and the House -- maybe in secret session, maybe otherwise.
But I think we have to.
 11 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 626
And perhaps that is the good that can come from all
of the work of the last year-and-a-half on both sides of the
dome.
Mr. Quillen. Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say.
I would like for the record to give the date of the last
secret session of the House -- it escapes
me now.
Mr. Flynt. Without objection.
Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. Hutchinson. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Quie.
Mr. Quie. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Mitchell.
Mr. Mitchell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Giaimo, you have raised enough red flags to keep all
of us here all week.
You spoke of covert operations. We are not really here
to discuss them. But I think the classic example of perhaps
a justifiable covert operation would have been if someone had
gotten to Adolph Hitler -- it might have been a step in the
right direction.
Mr. Giaimo. You mean during the war or before?
Mr. Mitchell-. What's the choice?
Mr. Giaimo. Well, we have discussed that. The problem
is it is understandable in the case of Adolph Hitler. But how
about in the case of somebody that we don't like down the street.
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
That is the danger with that. Anyway --
Mr. Mitchell. I'm a little confused about the situation
of classification. Mr. Quillen went into it, Mr. Marshall,
and Mr. Flynt. You don't feel, or a majority of the committee
aparently didn't feel that if there was a classified document
intact in the total committee report, that the total committee
report was still not classified?
Mr. Giaimo. That wasn't the situation. I don't think
there was --
Mr. Mitchell. How about the footnote about the Jackson
matter? Wasn't that intact, lifted from classified information?
Mr. Giaimo. I don't recall whether it was lifted intact -
you mean about the fact that Jackson had cautioned the CIA --
was that it?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes.
Mr. Giaimo. I certainly don't think that that was a
statement that jeopardized the national security in any way.
Mr. Mitchell. In other words, the committee could
determine what does and what does not jeopardize the national
security.
Secondly -- if the document had contained intact a
classified document, you still feel that would not classify
the committee report. A hypothetical situation. There
was in that committee report a document that was lifted intact,
placed in the committee report.
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Mr. Giaimo. Let me answer your question this way. I thin
that Congress -- I have been talking about individual members
of Congress with Mr. Quillen. But let me just talk about
committees of Congress. I think a committee of Congress, acting
for the Congress, and if it is supported certainly by the
Congress -- I think a committee of Congress can so insofar as
an executive branch classified matter is concerned, "We are
going to tell the Congress and the American people about this
matter; we are not going to abide by your executive branch
classification."
Now, I think Congress, congressional committtees, can
do that, and I think they do do that in many instances.
Now, we also made the judgement, however, when we did
that -- and I have to stress this -- that at no time did we
think that anything in that report -- and I think that right
now -- nothing in that report jeopardizes the national security
of the United States.
Mr. Mitchell. When we talk about other committees being
able to declassify, and your committee, we are plowing new
ground, I think. You say other committees declassify. I am
not aware of these situations. Do you feel that any committee
of Congress, without the approval of the Congress as a body,
can declassify any information?
Mr. Giaimo. I think that is a cloudy area -- whether
any committee can. This gets back to the fact that we are
 24
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talking about the need for rules changes. And I think there
is very real need for these rules changes. We are all groping,
because in the last few years this question has come up. So
I don't know about any committee. But I know that some committee
historically have done it. I know that my appropriations com-
mittee, if it set its mind to publicizing something, would do it,
I feel that the Armed Services Committee would do it -- and
that there are some other committees, I am sure.
Now, whether it is all committees, I don't know.
But we do need clarification, because many of us are
worried -- we want to act under the rules, but we recognize that
we have to know what the rules are, and are they adequate.
Mr. Mitchell. I think you stated there should be a better
method. I think we all certainly feel that there should be,
too. But until a better one does come along, it seems like
it might be a good idea to abide by the rules we have for
members generally.
I don't think you want to recommend that every member
divulge classified information on his own.
Mr. Giaimo. Sure we will abide by the rules we have.
But I don't know what reference that has to the report.
Remember that until the Rules Committee and the House acted,
this was a report which was to be published, which was not
considered by a substantial majority of the Committee as
endangering the national security, nor was it considered a
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
classified report.
Mr. Mitchell. It is a question of whether a committee
of the House can declassify. We all know that Congress can
make laws and declassify. I think there is no question there.
The connection with what I stated was that someone, perhaps
not a committee member, someone did offer the whole report to
the public.
Mr. Giaimo. And that was wrong.
Mr. Mitchell. I have no further questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Cochran.
Mr. Cochran. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
One of the difficulties in being the junior man on the
committee is that everybody asks all your questions before they
get around to you.
But I have one that I have been wondering about. And
that is, in our mandate, we are asked to look into the cir-
cumstances surrounding the publication of the report, and to
make findings and recommendations thereon. It has been the
judgment of the committee so far, and as outlined by the
chairman in his opening statement when the hearings began,
that this second part, the recommendations phase of our
work, is probably just as important, maybe even moreso,. than
the initial phase of locating the source of the report that
was published. He observed in his opening statement that
Section 5 of Article I of the Constitution provides, and I
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7
will read: "Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings
and from time to-time publish the same excepting such parts
as may in their judgment require secrecy."
You referred very eloquenly to our Founding Fathers, and
their view that the people have a right to decide issues of
national policy and the like, and certainly that is true. But
it was also contemplated, apparently, by the forefathers,
that there would be proceedings of each House that might
require secrecy.
In connection with the recommendations phase that we are
obliged to make, we have to ask the question now, do we have
adequate procedures and rules to deal with information that
we have as a body which ought to be kept secret.
In the conduct of your work on the Select Committee on
Intelligence, I know that you probably spent a good deal of
time talking about some of the subjects that you raised with
respect to how does Congress go about declassifying or getting
out information that the executive branch wants to maintain
in secrecy.
My question is did you at the same time consider this
question of the appropriateness or the value of the rules and
procedures that we now have to maintain legitimately classified
information as secret information.
Mr. Giaimo. We met as a committee when we formed and
when we wrote our rules and adopted rules, many of which were
 II Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 632
adopted from other committees, I believe, which had been
involved in this area, to try to set up proper rules to secure
the integrity of the secret information. Yes, we did concern
ourselves with that. It is a matter of great concern to me
and to many members of that committee and other committees,
because, you know, that is an inherent problem whenver you
tell anyone anything --when two people know--how do you keep
the secret. And the more people that know it -- and the dif-
ficulty is that many people in Congress know more about secret
activities now than they used so, so it is a problem for us.
In the executive branch many people know about it, and I
am sure it is a problem for them, too.
Mr. Cochran. Did you get into the question of the rules
of the House?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes.
Mr. Cochran. Or the procedures of the House with respect
to maintaining secret information?
Mr. Giaimo. The rules of the House, as I recall we
did -- about how to maintain secret information.
Mr. Cochran. Earlier in your testimony, you made a
statement -- I think it was in response to a question Mr.
Quillen may have asked, or maybe Mr. Spence -- about
maintaining secret information, and you responded by saying
that we have plenty of rules for that. Well, if we do,
I think that is reassuring to the members of the committee
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
and also to the House. Do you tkink that those rules, if we
do have plenty of them for that, are adequate, considering the
additional oversight responsibilities the House is apparently
assuming unto itself with respect to intelligence gathering
operations?
Mr. Giaimo. Perhaps I should have said we have adequate
rules, rather than plenty, because I don't know they are that
numerous. But we have adequate rules. And my experience on
two committees, for some years, has been that we have had no
problems keeping secrets. The problem is that now, in the last
few years, because of the wrong-doings of some of our members
of the intelligence community, and because of Congress's
awareness that it has not been observing what they were doing,
as it should, the problem is now what do we do to get away from
these rules that I said we have adequate rules -- and usually
they were very stringent rules -- that things were kept in
such secret, not only were they not divulged to the House, but
to many, many members of the House who didn't know about them.
The difflatlty is to get away from our old way of
doing things. Our old way of doing things was the "old boy"
system, where there were a couple of senior people in the
Congress, in the House or the Senate, who were privy to much
of this secret information, and no one else -- even members
of the subcommittee.
Just bear in mind that on the Defense Appropriations
 Z IlApproved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 634
Subcommittee, on which I have served for some number of years,
it was only about two years ago, Mr. Chairman, that we became
privy to the CIA -- the secret activities. Up until then it
was an Ad Hoc Subcommittee. We didn't even really know who
they were. It was not an official committee.
Now we-were able to change it so the whole subcommittee
hears the CIA's activities and its budget.
So we have had to loosen up the rules in ti at sense.
And it has been healthy. And there have been no secrets leak.
Mr. Cochran. Is there a rule of the House that would
prohibit the release of legitimately classified information
by a House employee to a representative of the news media?
Mr. Giaimo. I think -- you know better than I. because
you have been studying them lately and I have not -- I think
there is a prohibition, isn't there? Certainly our rules
provided contractually for that, with our staff.
Mr. Cochran. I am not sure we have a rule of the House
like that. I am not even sure we have a rule that would
prohibit, for instance, a member of the Congress who might,
as you suggested a moment ago, improperly not take the well
of the House and disclose legitimately classified information but
outside of the regular conduct of his job as a member give
information that is secret information to some unauthorized
person. I don't think we have such a rule.
Mr. Giaimo. I don't think we do, either, now.
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Cochran. The question is do we need such a rule.
Mx. Giaimo. I think we are getting dangerously close
to an Official Secrecy Act, which I object to most strongly
and would not want to see. And therefore I don't think that
you would have that kind of a rule, because it would in effect
impose an Official Secrets Act type legislation which we
do not have, and which would be unconstitutional, given some
of the recent decisions in the Pentagon Papers and other things.
Mr. Cochran. I have no further questions.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Flynt. I just have one question, prompted by the
line of questioning of the gentleman-from Mississippi.
What would be your objection to an official secret-s act?
Mr. Giaimo. I think that there is more harm and danger
that would come about from it, Mr. Chairman, than would be
the benefits. What would be the benefits? The benefits would
be to punish people who found out about secret government
activities and published them. Now, I have no sympathy for
people doing that. But -- you know, we are going on a long
time here. I don't want to take the committee's time. I would
love to discuss this, because it is a subject that I think
needs discussing.
Mr. Flynt. Let me rephrase the question. If we
could properly determine which secrets ought to be kept,
would you have an objection to providing some mechanism for
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tttt 636
13
keeping those?
Mr. Giaimo. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I grew up with a
healthy mistrust of government. I feel that you have got to,
like Thomas Jefferson and others said -- you have got to worry
about government, because government will perpetuate itself,
and therefore when a citizen finds out something that shocks
him -- for example, again, that secret war in Cambodia -- and
he speaks out about it, I think that the public interest is
better served by finding out.
Now, if you have an official secrecy act ,you are going
to intimidate this man or woman, and they are going to be
concerned with going to jail, and therefore they may keep
quiet and become part of the conspiracy of secret and silence.
We would have been better served, for example, in
the Bay of Pigs episode, where we are told that certain news-
papermen knew about it but kept it quite -- we would have been
better served if they had broken that secret and published
it and let the American peojie know. We might not have had
that Bay of Pigs incident.
I think democracy survives better in an atmosphere of
awareness and openness. And I think an Official Secrecy Act
would tend to intimidate people, and intimidation is the name
of this game of secrecy.
Mr. Flynt. Would you give away our research and
development specifications?
22
23
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637-644
14
Mr. Giaimo. Would I give it away?
Mr.,-Flynt. Yes. I mean do you think that ought to be
made public?
Mr. Giaimo. No. I don't think a lot of these secrets
ought to be made public. But I think we have survived for
two hundred years without an Official Secrecy Act. And I don't
think that I would want to see one imposed today.
Now, England has one, and England has been able to
survive with one. But I would not like to see us do it here in
the United States. It would be in my opinion going the wrong
way, in that it would be giving government an added weapon
against its citizens.
Remember, there were some courageous people who many
of us dislike and disagreed with who spoke out during the
days of Vietnam and would have.violated an Official Secrets
Act if it had been in existence. What do you do if you have a
tyrant in government? You could be compelled by an Official
Secrets Act from speaking out against him.
These are all, as you know, philosophical, controversial,
tough questions to answer.
We have done pretty well as a government. We have
done very well as a people. For two hundred years we have
served our nation well. And we are a great nation and a
great government. Let's keep it that way.
I tlink if we can survives thout it, let's do it.
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 D
11:15
Fls. AM
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645
STAT
Mr. Bennett. What you said about the Bay of Pigs brings
back to me a very difficult decision I had to make, because
I was a member of the CIA Committee at that time, and I was
informed about it, in advance.
My own personal feeling was that it would not succeed,
without going into the details of it, basically it was because
not enough force was involved. My own conclusion was, if it
was to be undertaken, it ought to be openly undertaken to
re-establish democratic government in Cuba. And I went to see
President Kennedy about it.
I did not release the information to the public because
I really didn't know what I should do. I thought if I went
to the President, in whom I had great confidence, that that is
what I should do, and that is what I did do.
At this moment I don't know whether I should say what he
told me at that time or not. But I can say he shared my
feeling of disquietude about covert operations, and I think
I will leave it at that point, except to say that this was a
difficult governmental decision for me to make.
I was adamantly opposed to what I thought was going to
transpire, and I thought Mr. Allen Dulles had a euphoria-about
the situation which had no foundation in military probabilities
and yet he was obviously going to go ahead.
Now, the same thing obtains, well, not the same thing
because we are not planning any more Bay of Pigs at the moment,
 13
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but the same sort of decision occurs before the CIA Committees
I am not talking about necessarily covert operations, but
as to the propriety of covert operations, not necessarily
specific ones.
As I said before to you, I am not convinced that they
are worth it. I think the dangers and damage that comes to
our country, my own judgment at this moment is, have exceeded
any possible benefits. And I share with you your concern
about secret government. I would like to add to it that it's
not just Presidential secret government, it partly is
bureaucratic secret government.
When a thing like this is already well planned, and
while implemented and the President is prepared with this, it'
.almost a fait accomplis, in my opinion, in some cases, and
the decision must be a very difficult one for the President
to make.
So, I am saying to you it isn't that the President who
sits up here and thinks up all of these things to do, but
having an institution like the CIA which can go headway with
a covert operation, of course, with the consent of the
President, I presume in every case, doesn't keep down bureau-
cracy thinking up new adventures. And my own judgment is it
has been more harmful to our country than beneficial.
There are probably examples of places where covert
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
operations have been helpful, but when I add them all up, going
back to the early history of our country, and coming down to
today, I don't think it adds up on the plus side. And it
does terrible damage to the United States' leadership potential
which is based basically upon what is morally right, and what
is proper, to sustain itself on its own merits.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Price?
Mr. Price. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Thank you, Mr. Giaimo, for your appearance
before the Committee and your comments and contributions to
the Committee.
Mr. Giaimo. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Roscoe B. Starek III.
Mr. Starek, would you raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this Committee in the matters now under consideration
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF ROSCOE B. STAREK III, MINORITY COUNSEL ON
THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CIVIL AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
Mr. Starek. I do.
Mr. Flynt. You may be seated.
Counsel?
Mr. Starek. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Starek, for the record, would you stat
your full name and present residence?
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 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Starek. Roscoe B. Starek III, 7201'47th Street,
24
Chevy Chase, Maryland.
Mr. Marshall. Would you talk just a bit louder, Mr.
Starek?
Now, Mr. Starek, where are you presently employed?
Mr. Starek. I am employed as the Minority Counsel on
the Subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights of the
House Judiciary Committee.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Starek, you were counsel, were you not,
sir, to the Select Committee on Intelligence?
Mr. Starek. Yes, Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Marshall. And when did you begin work as counsel
for that committee?
Mr. Starek. As I recall, June 9, 1975.
Mr. Marshall. And when did you leave that committee?
Mr. Starek. I went off the payroll on February 29, 1976.
Mr. Marshall. Now, you are presentlyappearing at the
invitation of this committee?
Mr. Starek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Prior to the hearing you have received
copies of House Resolution 1042 and 1054, as well as copies
of the rules of this committee, the investigative procedures,
and a copy of Chairman Flynt's opening statement.
Mr. Starek. That is correct.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have a written prepared statement
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
which you wish to file with this committee?
Mr. Starek. No, I do not.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have an oral statement which you
wish to make to the committee?
Mr. Starek. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. You have turned over to this committee
staff all documents which were requested that you turn over
and in your possession involving your Select Committee work?
Mr. Starek. Yes, I have.
Mr. Marshall. In the event that your evidence or
testimony may involve information or data concerning an
executive session of the Select Committee on Intelligence or
classified information, or information which may tend to
defame, degrade or incriminate any person, would you please
call that to this committee's attention in a timely fashion
so it may take appropriate action under the rules of the House
of Representatives?
Mr. Starek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Starek, you have prepared a memorandum
dated February 23, 1976 addressed to the Honorable Robert
McClory, did you not, sir?
Mr. Starek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. And that memorandum concerned security
regulations and procedures in the Select Committee on Intelli-
gence, is that right, sir?
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Starek. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Is it not correct that this memorandum
contains a survey, if you will, of your views as to the
security procedures and whether they were adhered to during
the Select Committee's life?
Mr. Starek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Could you summarize for us very briefly
your views as set out in that memorandum and any up-to-date
amendments to the memorandum that you think should be made
and brought to this committee's attention?
Mr. Starek. Well, as I recall --
Mr. Marshall. You may have a copy of the memorandum
if that would be helpful to you.
Mr. Starek. That would be helpful.
Well, as I recall, I reviewed the security regulations
and cited specific or cited examples as to when the regulations
were adhere to and reviewed the physical facilities for Mr.
McClory, with respect to the safes and who had possession of
the combinations of those safes, to my knowledge, and basically
I outlined a system of how the security regulations and
procedures were to work, and then I described how, in fact,
they did work.
Mr. Marshall. Is it correct to say that it was your
view, as set out in that memorandum, that the security pro-
cedures were by and large adhered to initially during the
 11 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0 651
life of the committee, but that as things got more hectic
and time pressures became greater thatthese security pro-
cedures were not adhered to?
Mr. Starek. I think that is a fair statement. But I
think that specific phrase, as I used it in the memorandum,
referred to one specific security measure.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir. Would you elaborate
which specific security measure you are referring to?
Mr. Starek. It was the one with respect to reviewing
classified materials in a secure library area or secure
area near the files.
Mr. Marshall. And what did you conclude about that, sir?
Mr. Starek. As time went on, and I think you received
testimony earlier to this effect, that persons were allowed
to review and work with materials at their desks.
Mr. Marshall. Now, did you also find instances, where
persons on the staff were allowed to contact the various
governmental departments directly to obtain documents without
going through the chain of command through the Staff Director?
Mr. Starek. I am not sure I follow you. Everybody
who went to the particular agencies were sent with the full
knowledge of the'Staff Director.
Mr. Marshall. But were there instances where the members
of the staff would contact those persons in-other agencies
directly, rather than going through one central committee staf
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
652
.member for that purpose?
Mr. Starek. Where members of our staff would contact
representatives of the various intelligence agencies?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, sir, correct.
Mr. Starek. Well, at each intelligence agency we had
to work through specific liaison staffs that were set up, and
I don't now recall any instances where persons did not deal
with the designated persons in the intelligence agencies
directly before then seeking interviews with members of the
intelligence agencies.
Mr. Marshall. Now, what were the circumstances surroundin
your preparing that memorandum?
Mr. Starek. Mr. McClory asked me to prepare it.
Mr. Marshall. Would you hand that memorandum, if you
would desire, to the court reporter so she may make it an
exhibit to your testimony?
(The above-referred to memorandum follows:)
 3
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653
Mr. Flynt. Without objection, this memorandum will be
included in the report at this point.
Mr. Marshall. Now, did you see members of the news
media in the Select Committee spaces during the period January
19 to Hanuary 23, 1976?
Mr. Starek. Well, yes, sir, but only in the foyer or
entryway area.
Mr. Marshall. And who were those news media persons that
you observed?
Mr. Starek. Well, I recall seeing Daniel Schorr there.
Others that I didn't recognize. I think Jim Adams was probably!,
there also at one point. There were several persons who I
assume, who I think were reporters, persons that I had seen
in our committee hearings.
Mr. Marshall. Did you have any direct or personal
contact with these persons in the news media?
Mr. Starek. You mean in the time period we are talking
about?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, during that time period.
Mr. Starek. Not that Irecall.
Mr. Marshall. With whom were they speaking or were
they talking at the time you observed them?
Mr. Starek. Well, I don't remember anyone in particular,
Carolyn- Andrade, our administrative officer, sat out in that
area, and often times representatives of the news media would
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654
come by to pick up public documents which were oftentimes
placed on an empty desk that was in there, was in that entry-
way, so I know they must have spoken with her. I just don't
recall anyone else.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall telling our staff you saw
Mr. Schorr speaking with Mr. Donner, Field and Carolyn
Andrade? Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. Starek. Do you mean the specific period January 19th
.Mr. Marshall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starek. I don't recall, but that could be the case.
That is generally who representatives of the news media, if
they came for a purpose other than picking up material, they
would request to see Mr. Donner or Mr. Field.
Mr. Marshall. All right. You have looked at the draft
of the report or part of the report which appeared in the
Village Voice, have you not, sir?
Mr. Starek. Yes, I have.
Do you have any judgment as to which
particular draft of the Select Committee's report was the one
published in the Village Voice?
Mr. Starek. Not specifically, not exactly. I know it
certainly wasn't the first draft and it wasn't the final draft
Mr. Marshall. When you say the first draft, you are
referring to the draft of January 19?
Mr. Starek. That is correct.
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Marshall. And the final draft, the draft of
January 23 as adopted by the committee?
Mr. Starek. When I say final draft I mean a draft
including changes which the staff was authorized to make
during the week of January 26th.
Mr. Marshall. What is the basis for your view that
it was not the first nor the last draft?
Mr. Starek. Simply by reading, having read the draft.
Mr. Marshall. Is there any specific part of the text
which appeared in the Village Voice which would enable you to
identify more closely which particular draft it contained?
Mr. Starek. Well, specifically, I recall certainly the
sections of the report which I helped write, and those were
not exactly the same as they were written or as they were
completed during the week of the 26th.
I think of in particularly one footnote which I am sure
was changed because we had a lengthy debate over it.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall which footnote that was?
Mr. Starek. Not by number but it had to do with a
presentation by Mr. Kirschstein and myself to the Select
Committee.
Mr. Marshall. At least in one draft you and Mr.
Kirschstein were referred to specifically in the footnote.
Mr. Starek. That is correct.
Mr. Marshall. But the Village Voice did not contain
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
that reference?
Mr. Starek. That is correct.
Mr. Marshall. With regard to that particular footnote,
do you have any recollection as to when that footnote was
changed as to which draft it was changed in?
Mr. Starek. It was changed during the week of the 26th
early on, I think.
Mr. Marshall. During the what?
Mr. Starek. Week of the 26th of January.
Mr. Marshall. The 26th of January?
Mr. Starek. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. But the change did not appear in the
Village Voice?
Mr. Starek. That is correct.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir.
Mr. Starek, Mr. Schorr, Daniel Schorr has stated in an
article in Rolling Stone of April 8, 1976 that on January 25th,
1976, he had possession of the Select Committee report, at
least a draft of that report.
Did you give this report or a draft of the report or any
portion of the report to Mr. Schorr or to any other person?
Mr. Starek. No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know anyone who did?
Mr. Starek. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
657
the circumstances surrounding the publication of any draft
of the Select Committee's report or of any part thereof?
Mr. Starek. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who has such
knowledge?
Mr. Starek. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Did you give the report or a draft of
the Select Committee's report, or make any part of the Select
Committee's report or a draft available to anyone outside
of the Select Committee on Intelligence?
Mr. Starek. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who.did?
Mr. Starek. No, not directly. I have read the newspaper
that one of the members did. But, other than that, I have
no direct knowledge.
Mr. Marshall. When you say you read in the newspaper
that one of the members did, are you referring to the testimon'
last week?
Mr. Vtarek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir, that was the member who
is supposed to have made it available to the CIA, is that
the particular reference?
Mr. Starek. That is what I am referring to, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Other than that, do you have any knowledge
of anyone who made the report or a draft of the Select
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658
Committee's report available to anyone outside of the Select
Committee on Intelligence?
Mr. Starek. No.
Mr. Marshall. All right.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Price?
Mr. Price. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Hutchinson?
Mr. Hutchinson. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Quie?
Mr. Quie. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Mitchell?
Mr. Mitchell. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Cochran?
Mr. Cochran. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Spence?
Mr. Spence. No, I don't have any questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Starek, we thank you for your appearance
before the Committee, and you may step down.
Mr. Starek. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. The Committee will recess subject to the
concurrence of the Committee, until one o'clock this afternoon
The hour of one o'clock for reconvening is suggested in an
effort that we may expedite the hearings and use all available
 11Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
(( 659
22
24
time for this purpose.
Without objection, the Committee will stand in recess
until 1:00 p.m. this afternoon.
(Whereupon, the committee recess, to reconvene at
1:00 p.m. this afternoon.
 16
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AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. Flynt. The Committee will come to order.
A quorum is present for the purpose of taking testimony
and receiving evidence.
Mr. Rushford, will you rise and be sworn?
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this Committee in the matters now under consideration
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
"!o help you God?
Mr. Rushford. I do.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Marshall?
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Rushford, would you state your name
and present address for the record, please?
TESTIMONY OF MR. GREGORY G. RUSHFORD, FORMER MEMBER OF
THE STAFF OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
Mr. Rushford. My name is Gregory Gene Rushford. I
reside at 261 Commons Drive in Vienna, Virginia.
Mr. Marshall. You are appearing at the invitation of
the Committee.
Mr. Rushford. I am appearing voluntarily, yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Prior to the hearing you received copies
of House Resolution 1042 and 1054, as well as the rules of the
Committee, investigative procedures adopted by this Committee
and a copy of Chairman Flynt's opening statement?
Mr. Rushford. Yes, sir.
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661
Mr. Marshall. Now, as I understand it, Mr. Rushford,
you were a member of the Select Committee staff during its
existance?
Mr. Rushford. I was a staff member.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir, and when did you come to
the Select Committee?
Mr. Rushford. Sometime around June 20th of 1975.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir, and when did your duties
terminate?
Mr. Rushford. The last day of February, 1976.
Mr. Marshall. Could you outline very briefly the scope
of your duties and responsibilities with the Select Committee?
Mr. Rushford. I was an investigator and I did the
investigation on the analytical performance of the intelligenc
agencies on six foreign events that we selected at random, the
Mid East War, Cyprus crisis, and four others and did some
work on the Forty Committee's procedures and did the
investigation on the adequacy of Soviet compliance with the
SALT talks.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Do you have a written, prepares
statement which you wish to make to the Committee at this time
Mr. Rushford. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Do you have an oral statement?
Mr. Rushford. Not at this time.
Mr. Marshall. Now, have you produced for the staff of
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662
this Committee the documents which you were requested to
produce which concern the subject matter of this investigation,
that is, the documents in your possession?
Mr. Rushford. I had no documents in my possession, and
produced none.
Mr. Marshall. Now, in the event your evidence or
testimony may involve any information or data concerning
executive sessions of the Select Committee, classified
information or any information or data which would tend to
defame or incriminate or degrade any person, would you advise
this Committee so it can take appropriate and timely action
under the rules of the House of Representatives?
Mr. Rushford. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Rushford, did you have anything to
do with the distribution of the first complete draft of the
Select Committee's report, that is the draft of January 19,
1976?
Mr. Rushford. I had very little to do with it, but I
did have something to do with it.
Mr. Marshall. All right, would you outline for us what
your responsibilities were in that regard?
Mr. Rushford. Well, the day the report was distributed,
you say January 19th?
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Rushford. There were several copies originally
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
distributed to I believe five of the members which had some
sort of typographical error, and I substituted then the Volume
I, and visited several offices.
Mr. Marshall. Now, while in the cours of your visits
to several offices, did you have occasion to observe any
staff of committee members, that is Select Committee members
reading the January 19 draft that had been distributed
earlier that day?
Mr. Rushford. Yes. When I delivered the copy of the
report to Congressman Aspin's office I walked in the office,
and to the right was a, staff member of Mr. Aspin's who was.
reading the volumes of the report and I just switched the one
volume and left.
Mr. Marshall. Did you have any other instances where you
saw staff of committee members, that is Select Committee
members having access to the January 19 draft or a later draft?
Mr. Rushford. Not where I saw it, but where I discussed
the subject on the telephone. I called Congressman McClory's
office and spoke with Mr. Ahern, and he said he was reading
Volume II while the Congressman was reading Volume I.
Mr. Marshall. Did you have any responsibilities with
regard to the distribution of the January 23, 1976, that is,
draft, that is the draft subsequently with some changes that
was adopted by the Select Committee?
Mr. Rushford. No.
 23
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Mr. Marshall. Now during the course of the Select
Committee's deliberations in preparation for issuing its
report, did it come to your attention that there had been any
leaks from the Select Committee or from any other sources?
Mr. Rushford. There were no leaks on any projects that
I was involved in. But I do remember two such leaks, though,
sometime in October, I guess.
Mr. Marshall. Of 1975?
Mr. Rushford. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Were the sources of those leaks ever
identified, to your knowledge?
Mr. Rushford. No.
Mr. Marshall. Was any investigation initiated to
determine the source of those leaks?
Mr. Rushford. Well, I believe so, but since I wasn't
directly involved in the subject.matter I wasn't involved
in what actually was done to uncover the leak and I really
don't know.
Mr. Marshall. Did you ever see any news media persons
inside of the Select Committee spaces, and by that I mean
past the security guard that was posted to log people in and
out?
Mr. Rushford. Not that I recall, no.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall overhearing a conversation
between Mr. Field and a man who was later identified as "Dan"?
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Mr. Rushford. Oh, yes.
Mr. Marshall. All right, sir, when was that conversation?
Mr. Rushford. It was in the week or so before the
report was voted on to be made public, somewhere between
January 19, I suppose, and the 23rd.
Mr. Marshall. Where were you when you overheard that
portion of the conversation?
Mr. Rushford. I was standing back at Searle Field's
desk and we were discussing the matter, and the phone rang
and he picked it up and somebody talked, and he said, "Dan,
there is no way I am going to give you," you know, "a copy
of this, you are going to have to wait your turn," or somethin
like that, and then I laughed and I said, "Is that Dan
Schorr?" And he said, "Yes' and that is all there was to it.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Now, you published an article,
did you not, inthe National Observer for the week ending
May 15th, 1976, entitled "Our Passive, Timid CIA."
Mr. Rushford. Yes, I did. I did not write the
headline.
Mr. Marshall. All right, did you write the article?
Mr. Rushford. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Now, do you recall signing an agreement
when you went on the Committee staff that you would not
divulge information you obtained by reason of your employment,
that is, information which is not in the public domain?
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Mr. Rushford. Yes, that's right.
Mr. Marshall. Where did you get the information in that
article? So I may giveyou the general train, what I am
interested in determining is how you construed this agreement
that you had signed, and the possible conflict, if there is
such a conflict, between the agreement and the fact that you
had published an article on theCIA?
Mr. Rushford. I have published two. One in the Washingto
Monthly entitled, "Making Enemies."
Mr. Marshall. I take it that didn't come by reason of
your work on the Committee staff, did it?
Mr. Rushford. Yes. It had something to do with it. it
was a story of our struggle to get classified information.
I can answer your questions very easily.
Mr. Marshall. All right, if you will.
Mr. Rushford. The National Observer article was
derived entirely from the public hearings of the Pike Committee
and have been published, and before I wrote any article, even
based on public information, I discussed this with Searle
Field and Congressman Pike, and I later discussed the National
Observer article with Congressman Mc Clory, and nobody saw
any objection to it. In fact, any reporter could have written
the same articles if they had read the hearings, and analyzed
them.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Schorr has stated in an article in the
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Rolling Stone of April 8th, 1976, that he had possession of
the Select Committee report of January 25, 1976. Did you
give this report or a draft of any part of this report or
any other Select Committee report to Mr. Schorr or to any other
person?
Mr. Rushford. No, I had absolutely nothing to do with
Mr. Marshall. Do you know anyone who did?
Mr. Rushford. ' No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of
the circumstances surrounding the publication of any draft
of the Select Committee or draft of the Select Committee
report?
Mr. Rushford. No.
Mr. Marshall. Or any part of it?
Mr. Rushford. No, except I attended the executive
session when the Coimiittee went over the report line by line
to vote on whether this should be made public. Other than
that, I have no knowledge.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who has such
knowledge?
Mr. Rushford. No.
Mr. Marshall. Did you give the report or make any part
of the Select Committee report available to anyone outside of
the Select Committee on Intelligence?
By that I mean report
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
or any draft of the report?
Mr. Rushford. No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know anyone who did?
Mr. Rushford. No.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Spence?
Mr. Spence. I don't have any questions.
Mr. Flynt. I have no questions.
Mr. Marshall, do you have any further questions?
Mr. Marshall. No, sir, I don't.
Mr. Flint. We thank you for your appearance before the
Committee.
Mr. Rushford. You are welcome.
Mr. Flynt.
You may step down.
The Committee will stand in recess until 1:45.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. Flynt. The Committee will come to order.
Mr. Marshall. Miss Poor, would you take the witness
stand, please?
Mr. Flynt. Ms. Poor, would you raise your right hand,
please?
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this Committee in the matters now under consideration
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
15
TESTIMONY OF MS. SUSAN POOR, FORMER MEMBER OF THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACCOMPANIED BY
MICHAEL GREENBERG, COUNSEL
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668
24
Mr. Flynt. You may be seated.
Mr. Marshall. Ms. Poor, would you state your name for
the record please?
Ms. Poor. Susan Poor.
Mr. Marshall. Would you speak up just a bit, please,
so we can hear you?
Ms. Poor. My name is Susan Poor.
Mr. Marshall. Where do you live, Ms. Poor?
Ms. Poor. 4114 South 36th Street, Arlington, Virginia.
Mr. Marshall. Are you presently employed?
Ms. Poor. Yes, I work for Congressman Edward Koch.
Mr. Marshall. Now Ms. Poor, you were a member of the
staff of the Select Committee on Intelligence?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. When did you first become employed by the
Select Committee?
Ms. Poor. September 3, 1975.
Mr. Marshall. And when did you terminate your duties
with the Select Committee?
Ms. Poor. The end of February, 1976.
Mr. Marshall. Could you give us your job title and
a general outlined of your duties with the Select Committee?
Ms. Poor. I was hired as a research assistant for the
Committee, and that included doing some background research,
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(( 669
13
memorandum for some of the"investigators, working on the
security areas in the back in terms of charging out documents
and letters preparing briefing books for hearings.
Mr. Marshall. Now, you are appearing at the invitation
of the committee?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. All right. And you are appearing with
counsel?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Would you introduce your counsel or have
him identify himself?
Mr. Greenberg. My name is Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Marshall. Prior to the hearing, Ms. Poor, you
received copies of House Resolution 1042 and 1054 and copies
of the rules of the Committee, and a copy of the investigative
procedures of this committee, and a copy of the Chairman's
opening statement, have you not?
Ms. Poor. Yes, ,I have that here. I have it, I have not
read the Chairman's opening statement. We just got that
today.
Mr. Marshall. All right, if you should desire to consult
with counsel with regard to the opening statement, you may do
so now.
Mr. Greenberg. Mr. Marshall, this was just handed to
us right now. I don't think we have had a chance to read
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670
through it, and I think we will go ahead.
Mr. Marshall. You would like to go ahead, all right.
Do you have a written statement you would like to file with
the Committee at this time?
Ms. Poor. No, I do not.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have an oral statement which you
would like to present to the Committee at this time?
Ms. Poor. No, I don't.
Mr. Marshall. Now, have you produced to the staff of
this Committee all documents which were in your possession
with regard to the Select Committee on Intelligence's work?
Ms. Poor. No. I was never asked to do that.
Mr. Marshall. And do you have any documents in your
possession?
Ms. Poor. I have some memoranda that I drew up while
I was on the Committee.
Mr. Marshall. Did those contain classified information,
to your knowledge?
Ms. Poor. No, they did not.
Mr. Marshall. Would you be willing to allow the staff
to look at those memoranda?
Ms. Poor. Yes, I would.
Mr. Marshall. Now, in the event your evidence or
testimony may involve information or data concerning an
executive session of the Select Committee on Intelligence or
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671
classified information or evidence which may tend to defame,
degrade or incriminate any person, would you please advise
this Committee in a timely fashion so that it can take
appropriate action, under the rules of the House of Repre-
sentatives?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. To whom did you report on the Select
Committee staff, Ms. Poor?
Ms. Poor. My immediate supervisor was Jackie Hess.
Mr. Marshall. And would you, for the record, identify
Miss Hess' job title, if you know it?
Ms. Poor. I am not sure I have it exactly, she was the
head of the research department and the head of the security
for the committee.
Mr. Marshall. Now, Ms. Poor, we have received testimony
here identifying the first person that leaked drafts of the
Select Committee on Intelligence's report aas a January 19,
1976 draft. Do you recall that particular draft of the
report?
Ms. Poor. If that was the draft that went out to the
Committee members, that is the one that I would recall.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall that there were two distinct
distributions to the Committee members, the first being-the
original draft of the Select Committee's report, and the
second being a later draft or a draft of the January 23, 1976?
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Ms. Poor. They were not two separate deliveries of the
report. I mean, there were changes made on the January 19
version.
Mr. Marshall. And you recall that the January 23rd
draft, with some changes, was finally adopted as the Select
Committee's report?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Now, with regard to the
January 19, 1976 draft, that is the first draft that was
distributed to Committee members, did you have any responsi-
bility to assist in distributing that draft or preparing it?
Ms. Poor. I had responsibilities in preparing and
distributing it.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Now, would you outline in
your own words what you did in connection with the preparation
of that draft?
Ms. Poor. In preparation of the draft, I was working
under the supervision of Emily Sheketoff and what I did then
was at her direction.
Mr. Marshall. All right.
Ms. Poor. Mainly I typed pages of the report that
were eventually going to go into the final report, and as they
were written we would typ them, and then they would be
compiled into the report.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Did you have any other
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
responsibilities such as Xeroxing of those pages?
Ms. Poor. I did do some Xeroxing at her direction, yes.
Mr. Marshall. Now, where was the Xerox machine located
in the Select Committee spaces?
Ms. Poor. It was in the second section, the whole
Committee room, as you walk past the reception area, it would
have been behind the first wall and there was a door there and
the Xerox machine was right behind that first division.
Mr. Marshall. Was there a staff member assigned to the
Xerox machine to control what was eroxed, and the numbers of
copies Xeroxed of the Select Committee draft report?
Ms. Poor. No one that I knew that was specifically
assigned to do that, no.
Mr. Marshall. Did you yourself do some Xeroxing of
the January 19, 1976 draft of the Select Committee reprot?
Ms. Poor. Yes, I Xeroxed some of those pages.
Mr. Marshall. Could you then determine the number of
copiesroxed or did you have to check with somebody in charge
of the machine to determine?
Ms. Poor. That wasn't my decision to make. When I was
at the machine, the number was already set, and I was just
taking over for somebody else who had been Xeroxing before
I Xeroxed.
Mr. Marshall. What was the number set on the January 19,
1976 report?
Ms. Poor. I believe it was twenty.
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Mr. Marshall. But that had already been set at the time
you did your Xeroxing?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Was there anyone to oversee your Xeroxing
to determine that you Xeroxed only twenty or did not change
the nemerical designation on the machine?
Ms. Poor. Well, Emily Sheketoff was there coordinating
the whole effort, and it was on her direction the machine was
set at 20, and we were deciding to do 20. That is all we were
collating at that point.
Mr. Marshall. Was there anyone there supervising your
work to determine if an additional number was Xeroxed?
Ms. Poor. Emily Sheketoff was there.
Mr. Marshall. The whole time you were Xeroxing?
Ms. Poor. Yes, she was there in the same area as the
Xerox machine.
Mr. Marshall. Now, did you personally Xerox 20 copies
of the entire report or did you simply Xerox a portion of the
report?
Ms. Poor. Only a portion of it.
Mr. Marshall. Now, how were the copies -- excuse me,
did you wish to confer?
Did you participate in the collation of the copies,
putting them together?
Ms. Poor. I believe I did, yes.
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Marshall. Were the copies after they were put
together, that'is the copies of the Select Committtee's
January 19, 1976 report, were they numbered in any way?
Ms. Poor. No, they were not.
Mr. Marshall. Was there any identifying characteristic
on any of the copies that you knew about?
Ms. Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. By that I mean so you could designate one
copy and identify it as opposed to another copy of the same
report?
Ms. Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. Was that ever discussed, to your knowledge?
I don't remember it being discussed.
Mr. Marshall. Now, after the copies were put together,
were they distrubted to Committee members?
Ms. Poor. Yes, they were. But later on that day, after
they had been assembled.
Mr. Marshall. Who was in charge of the distribution?
Ms. Poor. That was sort of a combined effort. I would
say Searle Field and Emily Sheketoff were the people who
were organizing us to deliver the reports.
Mr. Marshall. Did you take part in the actual delivery
of the reports?
Ms. Poor. Yes, I did.
Mr. Marshall. To whom did you deliver the reports?
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676-680
Ms. Poor. I delivered the report to three or four
offices. The only one I honestly remember going to was
Congressman Johnson's office.
Mr. Marshall. Is there any particular reason why you
recall that particular report?
Ms. Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. When you delivered the report, or reports
to the offices that you delivered them to, were you given any
instructions as to how you were to make delivery, to whom
.you were to make delivery of the January 19 draft?
Ms. Poor. No. We were told to take them to the offices
and deliver them and leave them there.
Mr. Marshall. Were you given instructions as to who
15
fls.
16
you were to give them to?
Ms. Poor. No.
STAT
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
68]STAT
Mr. Marshall. What was your understanding with regard
to to whom you might make delivery?
Miss Poor. My understanding was that I was to take it
to the office, and leave it in the Member's office, in his
inner office. If the Member was there, I would give it
directly to the Member.
Mr. Marshall. And if the Member was not there, what were
your instructions?
Miss Poor. I don't recall having any specific instructions.
I would go into the office and say, "I have the report" and
leave it perhaps on the desk, in the inside office.
Mr. Marshall. Is it your testimony, then, that you were
simply to use your own judgment in your.understanding of what
you were to do if the Member was not present?
Miss Poor. I guess so, yes.
Mr. Marshall. Now, do you recall, even though you
cannot recall the names of Members, Select Committee Members,
to whom you made distribution, other than Mr. Johnson, do
you recall what you did with those drafts to other Members?
That is, did you deliver them personally to the members
you delivered drafts to, or just simply leave it in their
offices, or can you recall?
Miss Poor. I don't remember.
Mr. Marshall. At the time you picked up the drafts of
the January 19th report for distribution, were you required
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
to sign out in any log or other record that you had received
a certain number of pies that were designated to go
to a particular Congressman?
Miss Poor. No, I wasn't.
Mr. Marshall. When you made your delivery, and came back
to the Select Committee spaces, were you required to fill
out any report, or to sign in that you had made deliveries?
Miss Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. Were you required to make an oral report
to anyone about the delivery that you had made?
Miss Poor. Not that I recall.
I mean if we had had any
problem, I guess we would have said that we hadn't delivered'
it. But we were not required to do anything of that sort.
Mr. Marshall. As I understand from your testimony, you
were not required to obtain any signatures at the. time
of delivery?
Miss Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. Did you make your delivery alone or with
some other person?
Miss Poor. Alone.
Mr. Marshall. Was it your understanding this was the
method of delivery as to the other Select Committee Members,
that is, the ones you did not physically deliver copies to?
Miss Poor. I assumed so.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall who else was going to make
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
deliveries besides yourself?
Miss Poor. The people that were there at the time
making deliveries, I believe, were Susan Paisner and John
Burke, and I don't know if anybody else took copies or not.
. Mr. Marshall. With regard to the drafts of the report,
January 19th report, that you delivered, were they in
sealed envelopes, or otherwise enclosed?
Miss Poor. They -- there were two volumes with each
report, and they were in black binders. And that was all.
Mr. Marshall. The black binders were not themselves
enclosed in an envelope?
Miss Poor. No, they were not.
Mr. Marshall. Was there a cover letter?
Miss Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Accompanying the binders?
Miss Poor. Yes, there was.
Mr. Marshall. Did you read the cover letter?
Miss Poor. Yes, I did read it. I don't remember what
it said, exactly.
Mr. Marshall. Was this a letter signed by Mr. Field?
Miss Poor. Yes, it was.
Mr. Marshall. Dated January 19?
Miss Poor. I am not sure of the exact date.
Mr. Marshall. Now, with regard to any changes that
were made inthe January 19, 1976 draft, how were they
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 20
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handled for purposes of distribution?
Miss Poor. Well, the committee started to hold hearings
on the 20th about the report. And changes that were made --
for instance, in the morning session, we would start making
those changes, typing those changes perhaps during lunch,
and then changes that were made in the afternoon session,
we would work on that afternoon.
Mr. Marshall. And how would those changes physically
be distributed to the Members?
Miss Poor. Sometimes they were taken to the committee
rooms -- to the committee room for the next hearing. I believe
occasionally they were also taken to Members' offices, directly
to the offices.
Mr. Marshall. Did you take part in the distribution
of changes?
Miss Poor. I did. I remember at one point -- and
I am not sure the date of this at all -- taking a page with
a change in it again to Congressman Johnson's office, and
then also on Saturday the 24th I had taken a copy of the
book, of the final report, up to Congressman Treen's office.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall whether you delivered
those personally that day to Mr. Johnson and Mr. Treen,
or did you leave that at the offices?
Miss Poor. Mr. Johnson's, I again left it at his office.
I replaced the pages and took out the ones that were to go
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
back to the committee room. And I delivered Mr. Treen's
to him directly.
Mr. Marshall. Were there other Members of the Select
Committee that you made distributional changes to?
Miss Poor. I -- you mean in their offices? I don't
remember particular changes that I made for any individual,
no.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, I have talked with this
witness beforehand. In my judgment at this point it would
be appropriate for the committee to entertain a motion to go
into executive session.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Spence.
Mr. Spence. Mr. Chairman, pursuant to Rule 11(2 }(k) (5) , I
move that we go into executive session at this time.
Mr. Flynt. This is a motion which must be made in
open session with a quorum being present. It is a motion on
which a recorded roll call vote must be taken. The question
is, shall the committee now go into executive session. I
will ask the Staff Director to call the roll.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Flynt.
Mr. Flynt. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Spence.
Mr.Spence. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Price.
(No response.)
 25
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Mr. Swanner. Mr. Quillen.
Mr. Quillen. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Teague.
(No response.)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. Hutchinson. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Hebert.
(No response.)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Quie.
Mr. Quie. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Foley.
(No response.)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Mitchell.
(No response.)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Bennett.
Mr. Bennett. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Cochran.
Mr. Cochran. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Chairman, seven Members answer aye,
five members absent, not voting.
Mr. Flynt. On this vote, by record vote, the yeas are
seven, the nays are none. A quorum of the committee being
present, a majority of the quorum having voted to go into
executive session, the committee now resolves itself into
executive session and will reconvene immediately in the
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~djoining room.
(Whereupon,. at 2:03 o'clock p.m., the committee proceeded
in executive session.)
 D
3 p.m.
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68STAT
Mr. Flynt. The Committee will come to order.
The Committee is in open session.
A quorum is present for the purpose of hearing testimony
and receiving evidence.
Mr. Marshall?
Mr. Marshall. Ms. Poor, did you have any portion of your
earlier public testimony which you wished to correct?
I just wanted to say that as far as
Xeroxing copies of.the report, I don't think there were more
than 20 or 30 pages that I actually Xeroxed, and, when we
were getting the report ready. I would like to clarify that.
And also in the other material I have that you requested
to see, you wanted to see, there is a portion of that, a
paragraph that is classified material, that is based on
classified material, it itself is not.
Mr. Marshall. When you say it's based on classified
material, do you have a paragraph that you refer to which
was drawn from a classified document?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Is the paragraph that you yourself have
classified, or does it simply come from a classified document?
Ms. Poor. No, it came from a classified document.
Mr. Marshall. The paragraph you yourself have is not
classified?
Ms. Poor. No.
 (Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Bennett. Well, by way of clearing the record here,
I think she is-not making an accurate statement because there
wasn't any way to declassify, so it came from a classified
document, so it was classified.
She had no way to declassify it and neither did members
of Congress have a way to declassify. They can make it public,
but they cannot declassify it.
I mean maybe I am wrong. I don't know of any procedure
for a member of Congress to declassify. He can make it
public.
Mr. Marshall. I think the member is correct. What I am
trying to distinguish though, is putting aside for a moment
the rule that anything in a classified document is per se
classified, I am trying to determine from the witness whether
the matter she had was the information which brought about
or provoked the security classification of the original
document.
Mr. Bennett. I don't believe she would be in a position
to pass on that.
Mr. Marshall. I don't know whether she would or not.
Mr. Bennett. I would like to further interrogate her
because she had some knowledge or ability to find out about
.classified documents, if she knows a paragraph is not
classified in a classified document, so I don't think she will
say that. You are not saying to us that you have any special
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
knowledge that makes this particular paragraph non-sensitive?
10
Ms. Poor.. No, Mr. Bennett, I am not.
Mr. Bennett. That is my understanding of the law about
classifications.
Mr. Marshall. Are you through?
Mr. Greenberg. We are through.
Mr. Bennett. I am through.
Mr. Marshall. I was referring to counsel, not you,
Mr. Bennett, although if you have any further questions?
Mr. Bennett. I don't want to be argumentative, but it
is a rule you can't just take out material and you can't
just set aside from that because she doesn't have, and I
don't have, nobody in this room has, the ability to declassify
a paragraph out of a classified document.
Ms. Poor. My instructions at that time was to draw up
this memorandum, which is what I was doing. When I was done
with it I gave it to Aaron Donner to read. He knew the part
in that one paragraph had the classified information in it.
I was under no instruction as to that material itself.
Mr. Marshall. How did you happen to retain this particul
paragraph?
Ms. Poor. Z originally got it from -- well, I am not
sure. What do you mean exactly?
Mr. Marshall. Well, you say you had in the memoranda in
your position one paragraph that came from a classified
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6
document. The question is how did you happen to have it in
your possession? That is, how does it enter into the
memorandum?
Ms. Poor. It is a document that was kept in the safes
in the Committee.
Mr. Marshall. Yes, but what I want to know is how you
happened to have it in your possession?
Ms. Poor. I don't -- I don't have the whole document.
Mr. Marshall. But you have this paragraph.
Ms. Poor. I have a memorandum I wrote.
Mr. Marshall. The question is did you simply take a copy
of the memoranda home with you?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. And you retained it after your duties
at the Select Committee had been discharged. Is that correct?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Now, going back to the distribution -- do
you have anything else?
Ms. Poor. I should say I was never asked for it back
either, the memorandum I drew up.
Mr. Marshall. Going back to the distribution of the
January 19, 1976 draft with the changes that we were talking
about at the time we went from public session into executive
session, when you carried the changes from the January 19, 197
draft to the various offices of the Members of the Select
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692
Committee, did you yourself make the physical changes in the
January 19 draft in the offices you visited or did you simply
hand the changes to someone in the office to be made?
Ms. Poor. No, if I brought a change to the office, I
removed the page that was to come out and replaced it with the
proper page.
Mr. Marshall. Then what did you do with the old pages?
That is the pages you removed?
Ms. Poor. I brought that back and gave it to Emily
Sheketoff.
Mr. Marshall. Now, was there any statement or record
that you had to keep of the old pages that you were bringing
back to the office?
Ms. Poor. I did nothing of that sort, no.
Mr. Marshall. You did not have to report to anyone?
Ms. Poor. I can't -- I had to come back to Miss Sheketof
and give her the page. It was not my responsibility to keep
track of which pages had been changed.
You did not have to identify to miss
Sheketoff which pages you were giving back to her, coming
from a particular member's copy?
Ms. Poor. No, I handed back to her the change I had
made, that is all.
Mr. Marshall. But you did not have to identify that
change as having been taken from a particular member's copy?
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Ms. Poor. I am sure I came back and mentioned to her
that this page had been changed from a certain Congressman's
book. There was no system whereby I would come back and say
this change has been completed.
Mr. Marshall. Now, with regard to the January 19, 1976
draft of the Select Committee's report, how many copies were
made for distribution, do you know?
Ms. Poor. There were 20 copies made.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Now how many of those copies
went to members?
Ms. Poor. Thirteen.
Mr. Marshall. Was there any distribution of that draft
to the CIA?
Ms. Poor. I believe that one copy went to the CIA, yes.
Mr. Marshall. THat leaves then six remaining copies?
Ms. Poor. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Now, what was done with those six copies?
Ms. POor. They were kept in the Committee staff room,
they were kept in the safes in the back. And they were
usually brought up to Committee hearings during the following
week as changes were made in the report.
Mr. Marshall. Were those copies numbered?
Ms. Poor. No, they weren't.
Mr. Marshall. Was there ever any accounting for those
copies, so far as you know?
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Ms. Poor. Nothing formal. They were counted. In the
beginning of the week there was more of an effort to keep
track of them, but by the middle of the week there was not
that much of an effort made anymore.
Mr. Marshall. Who was in charge of taking those copies
from the safe and bringing them up to hearings and then
bringing them back?
Ms. Poor. The people who worked back there were the
ones that actually carried them upstairs. I did that, as
did Susan Paisner and John Burke. We all carried them up and
anybody going up to the Committee room might have taken a
book up there. I was instructed to do that either by Emily
Shekatoff or Jackie Hess.
Mr. Marshall. During the time you actually carried the
drafts, six drafts from one place, from the safes to any
other place, they were needed, did you ever determine there
were less than six present? -
Ms. Poor. I don't recall ever counting before one of
those hearings to find out how many there were exactly.
Mr. Marshall. So, you really cannot testify of your
own knowledge how many were actually present at any given time.
Ms. Poor. That is true.
Mr. Marshall. Ms. Poor, Mr. Daniel Schorr stated in an
article in Rolling Stone of April 8, 1976, that he had
possession of the Select Committee report on January 25, 1976.1
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Did you give this report or a draft of the report, or any
draft of the Select Committee to Mr. Schorr or any other person
Ms. Poor. No, I did not.
Mr. Marshall. Now, do you know anyone who did?
Ms. Poor. No, I don't.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have any knoweldge whatsoever of
the circumstances surrounding the publication of the Select
C ommittee report or any part of the report or any draft of
the report?
Ms. POor. No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who has such
knowledge?
Ms. Poor. No, I don't.
Mr. Marshall. Did you give the report or a draft of
the report or make any part of the report available to anyone
outside of the Select Committee on Intelligence?
Ms. Poor. No, I did not.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who did?
Ms. Poor. No.
Mr. Marshall. That completes my questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Quillen?
Mr. Quillen. Yes, would the counsel yield on the answer
to that question a moment ago? When you said outside of
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696
the Committee, she had testified prior to that statement
that she delivered copies outside of the Committee room to
members' offices.
Mr. Marshall. Well, the question was did she give the
report or make any part of the report or a draft available to
anyone outside of the Select Committee on Intelligence.
Mr. Quillen. You mean outside of the membership?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Quillen. I wanted to clarify that.
Mr. Chairman, I have no questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Hutchinson?
Mr. Hutchinson. I have no questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. There are no further questions to be asked
of you, Ms. Poor, and we wish to express the thanks of the
C ommittee to you and your counsel for appearing here before
us and for the testimony which you have given to the Committee.
You may step down.
Ms. Poor. Thank you.
Mr. Marshall. Sandra A. Zeune to the witness stand.
Mr. Flynt. - You are accompanied by counsel, Mr$.. Zeune?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. In just a moment we will identify counsel.
Would you please rise to be sworn?
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You do solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this Committee in the matters now under consideration
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF MRS.. SANDRA A.ZEUNE ACCOMPANIED BY
MR. STEPHEN J. KOVACIK, JR., COUNSEL
Mrs.. Zeune. I do.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Marshall?
Mr. Marshall. Would you state your name for the
record?
Mrs.. Zeune. Sandra A. Zeune.
Mr. Marshall. And you are appearing here at the
invitation of the Committee?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Would you have your counsel identify
himself for the record?
Mr. Kovacik. My name is Stephen J. Kovacik, Jr..
Mr. Flynt. Of the District of Columbia?
Mr. Kovacik. No, sir, I am from Columbus., Ohio.
Mr. Flynt. Thank you, sir. We welcome you before the
Committee.
Mr. Kovacik. Thank you. It's an honor and privilege,
sir. Thank you.
Mr. Marshall. Miss Zeune, prior to the hearing you
received copies of Resolution 1042 and 1054.
Mrs.; Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. As well as copies of the rules of the
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Mrs.: Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Plus a copy of the investigative
procedures adopted by the Committee.
Mrs: Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. And a copy of Chairman Flynt's opening
statement?
MrB?: Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have a written statement you wish
to file with the Committee at this time?
Mrs; Zeune. No.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have an oral statement which you
wish to make to the Committee at this time?
Mrs.. Zeune. No.
Mr. Marshall. Have you produced through the Committee
staff all documents in your possession concerning the Select
Committee on Intelligence?
Mrs_.; Zeune. Documents that I took home from the Committe
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
MtS.. Zeune. No, sir. I have not produced those document
Mr. Marshall. All right. Do you have those documents
with you now?
Mr i. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. All right, are you willing to allow the
Committee to look at them?
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Mrs. Zeune. I will allow the Committee to look at the
documents that=l brought home from the Committee. I would
prefer not to supply my personal notes that I may have
taken.
Mr. Marshall. May a member of the Committee staff now
look at the documents you are now willing to let it look at?
Mzs Zeune. Certainly.
Mr. Marshall. With regard to what you refer to as your
personal notes, were these notes dealing with personalities
on either the Select Committee staff or the Select Committee
members themselves, or what?
Mrs: Zeune. I would say so, yes.
Mr. Bennett. Say what?
Mr. Marshall. She would say so, yes.
Is there anything in those personal notes other than
your person comments or views, or personal information about
people involved in the Select Committee's work?
Mi:s. Zeune. No, sir, personal comments only.
And dealing only with the people?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bennett. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Bennett. I assume from what you have said that
nothing in these personal notes would throw any light upon
where the leak occurred?
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Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Flynt,. We will reserve ruling on the requirement
for additional papers and documents until further questions
have been asked, at which time the Chair will make a ruling.
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Now, in the event that your evidence or
testimony may involve any information on or data concerning
an executive session of the Select Committee on Intelligence
or classified information, or evidence which may tend to
defame, degrade or incriminate any person, please advise this
Committee in a timely fashion so it may take appropriate
action, under the rules of the House of Representatives.
Mrs. Zeune. Fine.
Mr. Marshall. Mrs. Zeune, when did you join the Select
Committee on Intelligence staff?
Mrs. Zeune. 'June 15, 1975.
Mr. Marshall. And when did your duties terminate?
Mrs. Zeune. May 5, 1976.
Mr. Marshall. Could you outline for us briefly your job
title and describe your duties on the staff?
Mrs. Zeune. I was hired as a researcher on June 15 and
in August I was promoted to investigator and I worked
exclusively with the CIA.
Mr. Marshall. Did you, in working exclusively with the
.CIA, did that require you to contact a particular person at
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CIA or did your contacts range over a number of persons in
the CIA?
Mrs. Zeune. There was a general understanding that if
we wanted interviews or documents we were to make a written
request or a verbal request by phone to the review staff, on
occasion we would deal directly with future witnesses or
people we were going to interview, yes.
Mr. Marshall. Was this a review staff of CIA that you
made the request of?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Now, with regard to persons that you
wished to interview or documents that you wished to examine,
were you. the one who decided or selected those persons and
documents, or were you simply following instructions of
someone else?
Mrs. Zeune. Usually I would decide.
Mr. Marshall. And what would be the basis for your
decision, that is, how would you identify a particular person
or document that you wanted to look at?
Mrs. Zeune. We usually knew who we wanted to interview
just by their job title, if we just wanted to talk to them,
the witnesses were selected among the people, of course, that
we had talked to. In terms of documents, after interviewing
people you could, usually, had a general idea of what they hav4
available, and quite frankly, sometimes you would take a stab
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at it and hope they had something or at least hope they
would supply it.; if they had it.
Mr. Marshall. With regard to documents which you looked
at, did these documents contain classified information?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Now, would you view these documents within
the Select Committee spaces or did you go to CIA to look at
them?
Mrs. Zeune. Both.
Mr. Marshall. On the instances where you went to CIA
to look at the documents, what security procedures did you
have to undergo in order to have access to the documents?
Mrs. Zeune. Once the documents were made available at
the agency?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, what did you have to do inorder to
look at the documents at the agency?
Mrs. Zeune. We were generally put in a'reading room,
sometimes there was someone with-us from the agency, sometimes
there wasn't. We were just given access to the documents and
told whether or not we could take notes, whether or not we
could take names, et cetera.
Mr. Marshall. I take it then the condition of taking
notes and taking names varied depending upon the document
you were looking at.
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
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Mr. Marshall. Did you have to sign for the documents in
any way?
Mrs. Zeune. Just to review it at the agency?
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Now, are you familiar with something
called the Jackson memorandum?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall..,Was this memorandum mentioned in a
document which you looked at at CIA?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Would you tell us,.did you make a copy
of the information in the Jackson memorandum?
Mrs. Zeune. A Xerox copy?
Mr.. Marshall. No, Ma'am, a note copy, hand-written copy.
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. And. when you looked at that particular
document, were any restrictions put on you as to what you
could or could not do with the documents?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. What were those restrictions?
Mrs. Zeune. I was informed that the documents that
they had given me,'which was a set of files regarding a
particular subject, were raw files, they were not sanitized
in any way, I could take notes but I could not take names.
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Mr. Marshall. Now, could you elaborate on what you
actually understood was meant by you could take notes but not
take names?
Mrs. Zeune. The files which were given me contained
both real names and cover names, and code names. And it was
my understanding that I.could take notes but I was to write
down no names.
Mr. Marshall. Did you follow those instructions?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Now, with regard to the Jackson memorandum,
do you recall when this occurred, that is when you made those
notes?
Mrs. Zeune. I believe it was the first or second week
in December of 1975.
Mr. Marshall. Now, when you returned back,to the Select
Committee spaces, did you report those notes that you made
from the Jackson memorandum to any person?
Mrs. Zeune. I typed the notes up, and distributed a
copy, I believe, to Mr.. Donner, who was the counsel, Mr.
Field, the staff director, and supplied an extra copy to
Mr. Donner for the Chairman.
Mr. Marshall. Did you go over to CIA to look for the
information in the Jackson memorandum or was that something
you simply came upon while pursuing other information?
Mrs. Zeune. I was not looking for it, no, sir.
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705
Mr., Marshall. It came as a surprise to you?
Mrs. Zeune. Very. much so.
Mr. Marshall. Did you advise anyone. at CIA that you were
making copies of the information that you did copy?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir . Wait, pertaining only to the
Jackson memo?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, Ma'am.
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir. Can I clear that up? When they
gave me access to the files I was permitted to take notes
on anything in those files as long as I did not take names.
Mr. Marshall. Did anyone inspect your notes that you
took on this particular occasion to determine if you had
followed the instructions you were given about taking notes,
but not taking names?
Mrs. Zeune.. No, sir, I never had my notes inspected
on any occasion.
Mr. Marshall. Did you ever even have to show your
notes to anyone at CIA to determine if you were following
instructions at any time?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. They simply left that up to your individual
judgment, is that right?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir..
Mr. Marshall. Now, did you have responsibility for
delivering a draft of the Select Committee's report to any
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member. of the Select Committee?
Mrs. Zeune. First draft?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, Ma'am.
Mrs. Zeune. I really don't recall. I would imagine so.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall delivering any final draft
or changes between the first draft and the final draft to any
Select Committee member?
Mrs. Zeune. I recall one draft, it may have been the
final draft, I don't know, to Congressman James Stanton,
Congressman Dellums and Congressman Aspin, their offices.
Mr. Marshall. At their offices?
Mrs. Zeune. At their offices.
Mr. Marshall. But you don't recall whether this was the
January 19 or first draft?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall the day of the week that you
made the delivery?
Mrs..Zeune. No, sir, I am sorry.
Mr. Marshall. From whom did you get the drafts inorder
to make the delivery?
Mrs. Zeune. On our staff?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, Ma'am.
.Mrs. Zeune. I would imagine once they were correlated
they were usually stacked up in the security area, they each
had a tag on them who they were to go to, several persons
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1 70 7
grabbed three or four and off they went.
Mr. Marshall. But, you don't recall whether one person
21
was in charge of passing them out to you to make delivery?
Mrs. Zeune. Not specifically, no, sir.
Mr. Marshall.. You just simply went in and got the
number of drafts you were supposed to make delivery on and made
the delivery, is that right?
Mrs. Zeune. I would imagine that we were told that the
drafts were ready to be delivered and they asked if anyone
would do it, and, of course, several of us volunteered.
Mr. Marshall. When you say you would imagine, it is your
testimony you just don't recall specifically one way or anothe ?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. That is, you do not recall?
Mrs. Zeune. I do not recall.
Mr. Marshall. All right. Now, with regard to the
deliveries that you made to Mr. Stanton, Mr. Dellums and
Mr. Aspin, did you make personal delivery to each of those
Representatives or did youmake some other form of delivery?
Mrs. Zeune. I don't believe I delivered any of the
drafts to the Congressmen personally.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall to whom you delivered the
drafts?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir, I do not. I am sorry.
Mr. Marshall.. Do you recall whether you delivered them
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24
708
to a person in one of those offices or did you simply leave
the draft with -the offices?
Mrs. Zeune. I don't recall specifically. i doubt that
I would have just laid it on the desk and left.
Mr. Kovacik. Excuse me, sir, can we clarify whether or
not what her instructions were as to the delivery of these
drafts?
Mr. Marshall. Be happy to have her clarify that.
Mr. Kovacik. Thank you. For the benefit of the Committee,
what were your instructions as to delivery, were you instructed
to deliver them personally to the Congressman or his office?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir, no , sir; deliver them to the office.
Mr. Movacik. Thank you,, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Wer eyou given any more specific instruction
than that, then simply to deliver to the offices?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. You were not required to get any signatures
Mrs. Zeune_ No, sir.
Mr. Bennett. Can I interrupt there? I am not really
quite clear about what you remember and don't remember about
the stack of drafts. I get the impression that perhaps you
do remember that'there was a stack of these reports, and
that they were labelled in some way to go to specific offices,
and that youdo remember that you were not told to get any
particular ones, but were instead told to pick up whatever you
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could appropriately deliver.
Mrs. Zeune.- That is correct.
Mr. Bennett. That is correct?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall delivering Mr. Dellums'
copy specifically?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Where didyou deliver that copy specifically
Mrs. Zeune. I believe it was given to the receptionist
in his office with the understanding that Congressman Dellums
would receive the copy.
Mr. Marshall. At. the time you gave that copy to the
receptionist in Congressman Dellums' office, was the copy
sealed in an envelope?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Was it just simply in the black binders?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Did you give her any instructions as to
how she was to safeguard that copy until it was delivered
personally to Congressman Dellums?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir, I made it clear to her what it
was exactly, and she seemed under the impression that she
understood that it was to go to the Congressman.
Mr. Marshall. Do you recall making delivery of any copy
of the Select Committee's report or a draft of the report in
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in the horseshoe of the Rayburn Building?
Mrs. Zeune. No., sir.
Mr. Marshall. Going back to the notes you described
that you took at CIA on reviewing some of the documents and
referring specifically to the Jackson memorandum, did those
notes include names of persons?
Mrs. Zeune. At the time I took them?
Mr. Marshall. Yes, Ma'am.
Mrs. Zeune. No.
Mr. Marshall.- Did you later supply the names?
Mrs. Zeune.. Yes, sir.
Mr.. Marshall. How did that come about? Did you simply
go back to your office and fill in the names?
Mrs. Zeune. Before I left the agency I went back
through the memorandum, memorized the names and-places where
they went, and filled them in at the Committee offices, that
is correct.
Mr. Marshall. Had you used this memorization of names
on other occasions when you looked at the CIA documents under
which you had certain restrictions?
Mrs. Zeune. I don't recall ever using it intentionally
as I did at that time, no, sir.
Mr. Marshall. What was the reason for your doing it
intentionally at that time?
Mrs. Zeune. First of all, of course, I knew it would be
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something that both the Committee and the staff would be
interested in,athe staff meaning Mr. Field and Mr. Donner
certainly. I was interested in it myself in that it
proved, or I shouldn't say proved, it was another bit of
evidence of what the Committee was trying to prove.
Mr. Marshall. What was the-Committee trying to prove?
Mrs. Zeune. I should not have said trying to prove. It
was another instance where the Congress had served to protect
the intelligence community.
Mr. Marshall.. I am not sure I understood your last
answer. Could you repeat it for me?
Mrs. Zeune. You mean you didn't hear it or you didn't
understand it?
Mr. Marshall. I didn't quite hear it, and whether I
.understand it or not, would you speak up just a'bit?
Mrs. Zeune. Sure. The committee --may I make a brief
statement?
Mr. Marshall. Certainly.
Mrs. Zeune. It was the Committee's contention that
for years the Congress had served to not only oversee the
intelligence community but to somewhat protect it.. When I
saw the memorandum and that was not the only memorandum in the
file, when I saw the group of memorandums it served as another
bit of evidence of what the Committee's contention was. That
was my primary interest.
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Mr. Marshall. Now, what is the source of information
that you have concerning the Committee contention as you have
just stated that contention to be?
Mrs. Zeune. Mr. Marshall, I would say first of all the
Committee's Resolution, but just having worked for the
Committee for six months at that time.
Mr. Marshall. That was your understanding then based
upon the initial resolution as well as your experience with
the Committee?
Mrs. Zeune. Absolutely.
Mr. Marshall. Now, when you made the notes concerning
the Jackson memorandum, did you make a verbatim long-hand
copy of the memorandum leaving out the names as you have
testified?
Mrs. Zeune. Not one-hundred percent, no, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Did you judge it to be a complete copy?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Daniel Schorr has stated in an article
in the Rolling Stone of April 8, 1976, that he had possession
of the Select Committee report on January 25, 1976. Did you
give the Select Committee's report or a draft of the report
or any part of the Select Committee's report or a draft to
Schorr or any other person?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir.
Mr. Marshall. Do you know of anyone who did?
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Mrs. Zeune. By that do you mean do I have factual
evidence? My answer to that would be no. I do not have
factual evidence.
Mr. Marshall. Do you have any evidence whatsoever?
Mrs. Zeune. No, sir, no evidence.
Mr. Marshall. Well, I am intrigued by your description of
evidence as factual, and I don't mean to dispart with you, but
I am trying to ask you if you have any information whatsoever
concerning how Mr. Daniel Schorr obtained a draft of the
Select Committee's report or any part of the text of that
report?
Mrs. Zeune. I have no first-hand knowledge, no, sir.
Mr. Marshall. How about second-hand or secondary infor-
mation?
Mr. Kovacik. Are you speaking of hearsay or something
like that?
Mr. Marshall. I am speaking of any kind of information,
whether it meets the rules of evidence, any information what-
soever. Any shreds, no matter how remote or no matter how
far-fetched.
Mrs. Zeune. Mr. Marshall, sure, as everyone would
testify, for many months there has been speculation and hearsa
galore. I could really not in good conscience attest to
anything I have heard.
Mr. Bennett. Could I ask a question at this point? I
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find a little inconsistency. I don't think you meant to do it,
but you said you didn't copy the memorandum one-hundred
percent, and then counsel asked you whetheryou took it to be
a complete copy and you said yes, and of course, those two
answers are inconsistent.
Mrs. Zeune. By verbatim, no, sir. There would have been
two or three sentences that I would have left out.
Mr. Bennett. Substantially complete?
Mrs. Zeune. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bennett. I understand.
Mr. Quillen. Well, Mr. Chairman, go ahead.
Mr. Flynt. No, go ahead. I was going to recess until
we can vote.
Mr.. Quillen. Just one statement, and I admit I did not
have an opportunity to come back immediately. when you were
saying the purpose of the Committee and then later changed
it, do you mean to tell me that the staff members were brain-
washed as to what they were going to do in the Committee, the
purpose of the Committee was to disprove something?
Mrs. Zeune. I certainly wouldn't use the word "brain-
wash", sir.
Mr. Quillen. That is my word, not yours.
Mrs. Zeune. It_ was a facet of the Committee's investi-
gation, yes.
Mr. Quillen. To do what, to prove what?
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AM f is. 20
Mrs. Zeune. To, perhaps.I should not have used the word
prove.
Mr..Quillen. You struck that and I can accept that.
Mrs. Zeune. Okay, it was certainly my understanding that
a facet of the Committee's investigation would be the lack of
Congressional oversight in the past.
Mr. Quillen. And that lack of Congressional oversight was
going to be exercised by the Committee in a corrective
fashion?
Mrs. Zeune. We certainly hoped to make an effort for
better Congressional oversight, yes, sir.
Mr. Quillen. I won't pursue this now, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you.
Mr. Flynt. The bells have sounded indicating that a
recorded vote is in progress on the~'Floor of the House of
Representatives. I suggest that we stand in recess until we
vote and I would like to urge every member of the committee
to return as soon as he has voted.
(A short recess was taken)
 Approved For Release 2006/11/27: CIA-RDP91-00966R000800040001-0
Mr. Flynt. The committee will come to order.
The Chair observes that a quorum is present.
I recognize the gentleman from South Carolina.
Mr. Spence. Mr. Chairman, pursuant to Rule 11 (2)(k)(5),
I move that we go into executive session at this time.
Mr. Flynt. You have heard the motion. This is a
motion which must be made in open session with a quorum of
the committee present.
Under the rules, a recorded vote is required.
The question is shall the committee now go into
executive session.. The Staff Director will call the roll.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Flynt.
Mr. Flynt. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Spence.
Mr. Spence. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Price.
(No response)
Mr. Swanner.. Mr. Quillen.
(No,response.)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Teague.
(No response)
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Hutchison.
Mr. Hutchison. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Hebert.
(No response) .
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717
Mr. Swanner. M,r. Quie.
Mr. Quie. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Foley.
.,(No response)
Mr. Swanner. 'Mr. Mitchell.
Mr. Mitchell. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Bennett.
Mr. Bennett. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr. Cochran.
Mr. Cochran. Aye.
Mr. Swanner. Mr..Chairman, seven members vote "aye",
no members vote "no", five members absent, not voting.
Mr. Flynt. On this vote by rollcall, the yeas are seven,
the nays are none. A quorum being present, and a majority
of the quorum having voted in favor of the motion, the committee
now resolves itself into executive session, which will convene
in the adjoining room.
(Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m. the committee went into
executive session.)
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12
13
Mr. Flynt. Before closing the meeting today, let
me express on behalf of the committee the committee's thanks
to Miss Zeune and to Mr. Kovacik.
We thank you for your cooperation and for the information
which you have given to this committee. You are not under
subpoena, are you?
Mrs. Zeune.. No.
Mr. Flynt. With the thanks of the committee, you may
be excused. The committee does not anticipate it at this
time, but in the event it should be necessary to recall you,
we will make every effort to do it at a time absolutely
convenient to you.
Mrs. Zeune. Thank you.
Mr. Flynt. Without objection, the committee stands
adjourned until ten o'clock tomorrow morning.
Let the record show that the meeting which is to be
convened at ten o'clock tomorrow morning might, under the
rules of.the Democratic caucus,. have to be delayed. The
Chair will seek permission by unanimous consent of the Democrati
caucus for us to meet while the caucus is in session. If that
unanimous consent is granted, the meeting will begin promptly
at ten. If that unanimous consent is not granted, there may be
a delay in proceeding. But the present plans are for the
committee to reconvene at ten o'clock tomorrow morning.
The committee stands adjourned.
(Whereupon at 4:45 p.m. the committee adjourned to
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