TRANSCRIPT OF MEETING HELD IN DIRECTOR'S CONFERENCE ROOM, ADMINISTRATION BUILDING CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, ON 29 JANUARY 1954

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP91T01172R000400150002-1
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 42
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: October 25, 2000
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: January 29, 1954
• Content Type: TRANS

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AD HOC IAC COH4+IITTES (WATCH)
Transcript of Meeting Held in Director's
Conference Room, Administration Building
Central Intelligence Agency, on 29 -January 1954
Mr. Huntington D. Sheldon
Presiding
AIRS PRESEDIT
Mr. William C. Trueheart, office of theSpecial Assistant,
Intelligence, Department of State
Brigadier General John M. Willems, Deputy AG of S, t;r-2,
Department of the Armor ;
Captain D. T. Eller (USN), Assi~etant Band, Intelligence
Branch, oP1I, Department of the navy
Brigadier General Millard Lewis, Deputy Director Intelli?
genre, Headquarters USAF, United States Air ForcF
al E. T. ~Yton)
Federal Bureau of Investigation Liaison
Joint Staff (Substitute for Rear ~_ Group, The
i ~,..
Colonel Neil M. Wallace, Joint Inte ll. ige n~
Energy Commission -~ Atomic
Dr. Charles H. Reichardt, Inte]ligenc:e Division,
ALSO PRESEI!1T
25X1A
Colonel George R. Hundt, United States Air For
Colonel Ho~rard D. Kenzie, United States Air
Section,
Lt. Col. James P. Barry, Department of the.
,~, ~lY'
Mr. Samuel S. Rockwell, United States Air'-Force
Commander Robert B. Kail, Department of 4the Navy
Secretary, CIA
25X1 A Reporter, CIA
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MR. SHELDON: I think we might as well deal with last time's Minutes.
Are there any proposed changes?
CAPTAIN ELLER: I would like to modify, Mr. Chairman, on the bottom of
page 3. I think it clears up what I actually intended to say there a little
bit better -- the second sentence there at the bottom of the page: "He
felt sure that there had been times when . " Following "when" say
"certain intelligence items having operational aspects have not been presented."
I phrased it the other way, and it looked like there was more emphasis on
operational than there should have been.
Mft. SIiELDON: We will gladly accept that. Are there any other suggested
changes?
25X1A May I have that again, please?
CAPTAIN ELT ER: Starting with "when" say "when certain intelligence
items having operational aspects have not been presented."
25X1 A Thank you.
MR. SHELDON: Any other changes? Zf not the Minutes will stand as
circulated with the amendment made by Captain Eller.
Now we redirect our attention, I believe, to paragraph g. I think it
was I that raised a question on g.
CAPTAIN ELLER: I didn't realize we had finished with f., Mr. Chairman.
You remember we had quite a discussion as to whether the --
Mft. SHELDON: Are we talking about new f?
CAPTAIN ELLER: Well, the f. on the 15 January draft. That was what
MR. SHELDON: That is the problem. Maybe that is what I asn calling g.
COLONEL WALLACE: Yes, that is right.
CAPTAIN ELLER: Yes, you are right. I didn't get the new --
MR. SHELDON: The next time, Frank, get a clean piece of paper and
start with so we won't have this kind of trouble.
25X1A All rights sir.
MR. SHELDON: Now I raised a question on old f. new g., and what I am
suggesting today is that we are perfectly willing to buy old f. new g. if the h.
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as circulated is satisfactory to the Committee; in other words, it gets in
the thought that we had on this particular matter. In other words, the point
that I raised at the last meeting was that what would the Staff actually do?
Now would they actually prepare specific drafts? And the general feeling
1n the Comffiittee was No they shouldn't go to that extent. General Willems
iadiaated that he didn't want to lose the substantive review and discussion
with the members and to.overcome my thought that the Staff should have
some participating feature in assisting the Committee, I would be perfectly
willing to let f. g. stand as it was written provided that my concept which
is set forth in h. is acceptable. It seems to me it gets around the mayor
problem that General Willems was objecting to because you really have two
steps and two funetion$ to carry out. It avoids the criticism that was
directed at our concept of the Staff coming up with canned items. It is
not intended to mean that so to ,get away from the idea the Committee would
simply act as a rubber stamp.
DR< REICAARDT: It certainly gives leeway to the individual Watch
Committee members in relation to his particular staff.
A4R. SNEL'DONs That is right. It seemed to me it is quite a happy
solution to what we were arguing about or discussing the last time.
COLONEL WATT.4CE: In practice I know the Watch Cosmaittee members have
never felt restricted by the printed agenda that we got at the meeting.
If anyone ha8 anything additional to bring up he was always perfectly
free and encouraged to do so.
MR. SSELDONs Certainly. Welh does this help solve the road block
we ran 3nta last timeY
COIANEL BARRY: I think perhaps, sirs in part the answer to that would
lie with what then was done with g. and h. because these all sort of mesh
together the various steps in the operation of the Working group.
AII3. S~IELDONS I am proposing that g. remain aas originally drafted.
COIANEL BARRY: Welly I an sorry; it would be now h. and ~.~ yes.
MR. SHEI~DONs Welly all right; in other words,, you would 13.k~e to see
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what the other thoughts are on the succeeding paragraphs before you make any
comment?
COLONEL BARRY: Yes, sir; in other words, how the whole process is
though it is envisaged bit by bit.
envisaged rather than ?
~~ SHELDpN: All right, well, then let us for the moment turn to
what becomes i. if h. is temporarily left for further discussion. In. other
words, the old h, is "coordinate the reproduction-and distribution of the
Watch Comarnittee reports in final form." I think, in generals that concept
is perfectly acceptable as far as we are concerned excepting I would like to
make one slight suggestion that it read, "coordinate the reproduction and
dissemination of approved Watch Committee reports." It is the same concept
only I think it tightens it up. It is simply a question of language. The
spirit and thought back of it is the same.
CAPTAIN ELLER: Would you repeat the phraseology?
~~ S~~ON; "coordinate the reproduction and dissemination" rather
than "distribution of approved Watch Co~maittee reports." And I think that
with that as the disseminating responsibility we can then go back and
look at the new proposed g. or h. whichever you prefer.
COLONEL BARRY: In effects sir, what this proposed h. is doing is
avoiding a definite statement as to the exact mechanics and. simply saying
that the Working, Group or Secretariat will --
MR. SHELDON: From time to time it certainly would and should for
my money bring up certain pieces of paper which require to be dealt with.
COIANEL BARRY: Yes, sirs and this will leave to the --
MR. SHELDON: It puts a certain flexibility into the staff operation
in its support of the individual- Committee members and the Committee as a
whole. That is the thought in this.
COIANEL BARRY: -- Committee itself the detailed decision as to dust
how the .thing was done.
MR. SHELDON: Exactly.
(At this point Brigadier General John M. Willems entered
the room.)
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MR. SHELHON: How are you?
GENERAL WILLEMS: (to Lt. Col. Harry) Do you want to stay?
COLONEL BARRY: No, sir, I dust wanted to finish the one sentence
I started.
GENERAL WILLEMS: .Excuse me for being late.
MR. SHELDON: Not a bit. We got to discussing last time, if you
recall, General Willems, the old f. paragraph here, and there was a slight
difference of view as to the functions between the Staff and the functions
of the individual Committee members, and we had quite a talk along those
lines, and I suggested that possibly I might be able to resolve those
difficulties, and I have attempted to do so by agreeing that the old f. is
perfectly satisfactory as far as we are concerned provided the new h., which
we have circulated, is acceptable. We left the consideration of h. until
we saw what the new i. or old h. would look like, and in that connection I
suggested, and it was accepted by the members here, that we have it
read, "coordinate the reproduction and dissemination of approved Watch
Committee reports," s3snply a change in phraseology, but no change in the
fundamental concept, and since that was agreeable to the Committee we then
returned to examine old g. which I have circulated as -- or rather the h.
which I have circulated -- and we had about reached a point, I think, where
that seemed to meet with people's general agreement.
CAPTAIN EI.T.~R: In connection with that, Mr. Chairman, I am in pretty
much accord with the phraseology here now. We left out the matter -- the
statement -- "and prepare the draft report and conclusions." We left that
out the last time because of the feeling that we would be tying the hands
of the Watch Committee a little bit and making it more stereotyped if we
had a predrawn --
Mft. SHELDON: This is my attempt to leave all of that matter in the
hands of the Committee itself.
CAPTAIN ELIER: Exactly.
Mft. SHELDON: But simply not estop the members of the Staff from
submitting rough --
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CAPTAIN ET?T,F.R: Yes.
MR. SHEL~N: -- ideas and things of that sort which seems to me is
their proper function.
CAPTAIN ELLER: Well, this statement -- the h. that you have here --
would still permit that, but it isn't indicated that that would be followed,
so it would be dust an open problem, and the only thing I would like to have
it shown that we feel that the Watch report should not really be written up
preliminarily in any fashion.
MR. SHELDON: It is not intended that that should be the case.
CAPTAIN ELLER: I understand. The other point in here, I would
wonder if you wouldn't feel satisfied with this. Instead of "as a basis for"
make it "to assist in". In othex words, "prepare material for use by the
Watch Committee to assist in its deliberations".
MR. SHELDON: That is perfectly all right; that is perfectly aJ1 right.
CAPTAIN ELLER: Yes, sir, I am in complete agreement.
MR. SHELDON: Is that satisfactory to the other members of the
Committee?
GENERAL LEWIS : Yes .
GENERAL WILLF,MS: "to assist in its deliberations".
Mft. SHELDON: That reflects gust exactly what we have in mind to give
flexibility to the Staff and not to impinge on the Committee's prerogative.
CAPTAIN ELLER: Yes, sir, I thought --
MR. SHELDON: Right, and then that leaves us with the problem of
trying to crank in here some experimentation with the gadgets, and in attempt-
ing to do that we have submitted ~. as a tentative suggestion along those
lines. 2 think in principle we have more or less all agreed that we want to
keep this out of the day-to-day techniques unless and until something is
developed, thoroughly tested, and accepted. We don't want to have anybody
relying on gadgets until they are so thoroughly proven that they are beyond
a question, which may never be the case. I think we have to say something
about this type of a gadget somewhere in our paper. Don't you feel that --
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QEI~ERAL WILLII89s Yes, I thick the Watch Cosenittee shoul8 have the
advantage of all modern developments and aids that will assist it.
Imo. SHSLDf1Ws IoW ~ dOn't have any pride of authorship on this par-
ticu],.ar peucagraph. It dust expresses our feelings as to hour this thing
should be done and aa~entirely open to suggestions on it.
GSS~RAL WILI~18s The only questionable part -- and I am sure it is
not intended at all -- end m~Ei,}~b?I am a little touchy having Wound up on
this Indications BoarB -- sae say "With a view eventually to assist in
accomplishing the Watch Committee Mission." I Wonder if sae are not over-
emphasizing the "assist". I Woad~er if sae might perhaps --
~, gHS1;~pSt "With a sriew possibly to assist" is What you mean?
tG~1~RRAh WZLLE~s That is What I ~oean, but when you Write it Bourn
it looks kind of fuzzy.
I~R. REICHARDTs This would help in my looking at it because I wou18
propose that ~ put it experimentally or --
MR. Nt You mean possibly.
DR. REICHARDTs Possibly and drop the experimental because to develop
experimentally also mesas to test, and I think What you mean is you ere
experimenting on these things. You are developing in an experimental Way,
you see.
MEt. S~LDONS That is rift, but I still intend it tv mean to test- in
an experimental Way, to keep it out of the day-to-Ba3- techniques, and then
if by some --
~t. REICHARt~i's Right.
~. 3H~I~D4Wi -- chance something really proves itself, then you can
at that time consider Whether you Went to crank it into your dey-to-day
operations.
Int. FtEICHARDTs What I was thinking, mollification, General FIillems, might
-allow you to drop the experimentally frcmi sphere it is, which is somewhat
awkward, and doesn't cover your test completely either.
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CoIA~L WALLACE? Is what you are trying to say "to develop and test
the mechanical aids on an experimental basis"Y
TaR. REICBARI)T2 This might be it and might help f~eneral Willems.
Wit. 38ELDCIgt That is all right.
~~~ Wks Wt~re you have "with a view eventually to assist" I
might suggest sosmthing along the line, "to insure .the benefit of such
aids in acccmtplishiag the Watch Committee mission."
~? mgt You want to go that strong? I mean I don't care how
you write this frankly s,s long as we get the idea in. It doesn't make at~y
difference to me.
Wei That is what we are trying to get, isn't it? We want
the Ccmnnittee to have the benefit of all possible assistance in this field.
~? >~: Yes.
dEL WILLE1~Bs I thought the term --
~? RNs I was thinking again in terms ?i' the mad who is going
to be running the shop, so to speak, and what does this make him do on a
priority basis. ~ has to allocate his time and his means, and I thought
maybe that might be too strong. Well, let's try that out anyway because .
In other words, the first change suggested is to "develop and test mechanical
aids on as experimental basis."
DR. REICBARD-i'3 Or "aids and techniques on an experimental basis."
(T4LOgEL WALLACEs "mechanical aids and techniques on an experimental
basis."
AlR. BH6LDt)!1S Atl right -- "to develop aids and techniques on an
dxperimental basis." We are leaving the thought of testing them out then?
DR. RFICHAR~Ts ~, testing is still in there -- "to test and develop
mechanical aids and techniques." It is suet that to develop experimentally
to me means also to test, and I think you wasted to emphasize-the experimental
basis for both things.
Agt. gBEIrUt)gs Yes.
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MR. KtH; (~emesral Willsms, using Dr. Reichardt's change there,
"comma through aids and techniques on an experimental basis to aid in
accomplishing the Watch Committee Mission," would that not fit your interest
there to aid --
t3E1~RAL WIL~St Yes, I think that would be --
MR. KtJ~t'J,'Zs Instea8 of "with s view eventually to assist on an
experimerrtttal basis tc> aid in accomplishing the Watch Committee Mission"?
I think that is your point, isn't itY
TAR. RCICHARDTs Well
MR. $H~IS10Hs Well, when you say "to aid in accomplishing the Watch
Committee Mission," you don't then ley it on the lies that that isn't
cranked in at ,somoe time until it is proven. That is whet I am afraid of.
DR. RSICBARDTS Yes, I see that now.
C4IA~L WALLAC$s The thought I have dust been thinking of here,
"with a view to adopting proven techniques."
MR. S~II~Ns That is the thought all right.
C4IAHEL WATsI,ACE; With a view to adopting the proven ones.
t#S1~RAL WILLEMS2 The only thing is well, I guises .
A11 we want to be sure of is that the Watch Committee takes advantage of
those that really provide some assistance. Isn?t that right?
MR. FIiELpOWs How about this?
ORAL WILLEN~s Hxcuse me on the one point that if there is nothing
that res].xy is advantageous, we don't want the Watch Committee feeling
boun8 to have some sort of gadgetry they don't have to use.
C4IAI~E,L WALI,ACE i That is what I had in mind, when I say, "with a view
to adopting proven ones."
MR. Kt1SRTZs Doesn't that infer that if that is adopte8 that is it frcam
there onY
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DH. REICHARDTi Y'es.
CaLOH~L WALI~iCEt Dater proved fallacious, why you can drop it.
CAPTAIX ELLERs After the first war.
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~, WALLACE s That is frankly one of the things I feel. If we, for
instance, set up some mechanical gadgets and have them in operation on an
experimental basis, an8 a full-fledge8 all out war suddenly falls in our laps,
and that will be the proof of whether the system was good or not. After that
it is not going to make any difference because we are either going to win
or lose that war, and it will be so conclusively won or lost you won't need
a Watch Committee for a long time. 'that may be a little extreme, but --
ld~. SHEI.DOgs Well, do we have any specific suggestionaY
CAPTAIg ELLERt One thing that generally seems to fit in with the
ideas we ,have discussed and seemed reasonable, that we want to be sure that
we are not accused of entering the experimental field in a sort of a research
matter and diverting any of our real attention from our primary duties. It
would depend upon how much effort is going to be put by the Working Group
on to-this particular item.
1~Et. SAELD()I~t That is it. The Committee Chairman is going to have to
give guidance I assume to the Chief of the Indications Center as to how
much mAney is available and .how many manhours can be spent on this kind of
thing. You have got that problem to face when you write this paragraph in
here.
QrE1~RAL WILLEMSs There is that danger if you happen to have a Chairman
who is a kind of gadgeteer .with this Charter he could really go to
town on it.
CAPTAIg'L~I,I~Rt I realize everyone likes to play with this. There is
nothing more interesting than to have flashing lights.
CpLO~L WALZACEs Well, I think what we are interested is is the type
of thing that any operating off ice would develop dust as a matter of course,
of time an8 experience to help do its Sob. We do the same thing in our own
offices now. Maybe there are personal things we do for the regulation of
our own day to day activities, or a lar8per scale for our own offices, but
they don't get into the broad research and development field at all.
~~ S~i~loDTs If you put anything in down here at a11, and I think we
have to because of a number of reasons why we should introduce this idea into
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the paper, I don't see how unless you spell out specifically, and that is
impossible, the man hours to be clavoted and the money to be devoted .you
have to rely +?n the common good sense of whoever is running this Center
not to go over'~ard on it. I don't think y?u can spell it out.
CAPTAIi~ ELZE'R: Wouldn't it be perfectly possible that this same
project could be undertaken right now and that we cou18 conduct exactly
this statement if the Watch Committee felt that it would profit us to do it?
DR. REICHARDT: We would have to yell for roam, etc., etc.
MR. Kt~RTZs Rocca and help, and we don't have permanent room, etc.
t~EI~RAL WIIZEMS; This was all part of that proposal?
Ate. BHEI~D('18s It was part of the original ~ir-2 proposal, and I presume
they have considered the manpower and space itself that would be necessary
f?r such an attack ?n the problem and which, of course, should also be-
taken into consideration when we get to the point of how many bodies, etc.,
are needed for this Center. Well, who has so?ething they want to offer
.specifically?
aEi~ERAL WILLED: I have something. If we would start off and say,
"to develop and test such mechanical aids an8 techniques on an experimental
basis as will benefit the Watch Committee in the accomplishing of its
mission" or "accomplishment of its mission".
1~R. SHELDt)Rs What bothers me about that is that you assume that a
benefit must ensue whereas that might not be the fact.
f3E~iL WII~LEMS: No, you could put only in there "to develop and
test only as would benefit".
MR. 3~UU1~s But you can't deteraaine that until you have dose some
experimenting. I don't want to nitpick this at all, but .well, let me
put it this way. If everybody else agrees to that langus?e, I am willing
to agree to it. I think it is an almost i~gpossible paragaraph tci write
frankly. You have all got the same end in mind. Again we are having language
trouble.
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CAPTAIN i~LLEEts The word "concurrently", I think, is very good there,
and you didn't have it in your --
E~E~RAL WILI~2 No, ins didn't have that in --
CAPTAIl~ F"iT:R!RS -- statement, and I think the indication should be
that it would not iu anyway interfere with the normal processes.
MR. S~LDONt That is what I tried to say. It separates the thing
out, and you 8'0 on from there. How you go on doesn't make much difference
as far as I am concerned is the language.
G~EgERAL WII,LEMSs Why not take the first line of the original
proposal "concurrently but not as a substitute for current methods of
analysis and evaluation" and then go on? What I was trying to acccanplish
by this wordiag was to put sort of a guard up against it where we bring
out the fact that in doing this and in developing this they must insure
that it is a be=rsfit to the Committee and doesn't give them sort of carte
blanche authority to 8'o ahead and experiment on a rather broad scale.
MR. S~I.mNs Will we get anry help if we go back to the original
Gi-2 paper on this?
f~A1FRAL WILLEM-SS That is the one where we said "maintain wall maps,
charts and other display material which will most effectively illustrate
and interpret graphically the current situation and long-raAge trends .
Ate. SF~LDUNs Yes.
~ WII?Is That might not have met the Air Foree appreciation
of what -was imr?lved here .
MR. B~LDONs T think this- is apelle8 out perhaps in too much detail
here, and after all we were pretty close to an agreeme~ on this.
DR. REICSARDT; I like General Willems' ideas. I had a thing written
down, and T have added one word to it which I hope expresses that. See whether
this gives you the feeling we are trying to get at. The sentence we have,
"aids a,n$ techniques on axt experimental basis with a view to their eventual
use in effectively assisting the Watch Committee in accomplishing its mission."
~'t. 3HEI~ONt I~am perfectly willing to buy that.
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DR. REICEARDTt I mean does that --
aEI~tERAL WII~t Would you read that again, Please?
AAt. REICHARDTs Game down on the third line .right on through down
to the third line, you see, as we changed it, "to develop and test mechanical
aids and techniques on an experimental basis with a view to their eventual
use in effectively assisting the Watch Committee in the acc?mplishing or
accomplishment of its mission" -- either one. You see, ii" this puts all
of your --
Ate. S~IbATs What is the reaction to that suggestion?
DR. REICBARDTs I like f3exberal Willems', but I was dust trying to
help with the word, "benefit".
A+~. 8~IaDGI~: Frank, I think you better check A+~'. Trueheart's office
and see. You have a full record bare in any event.
E3EI~RAL WII~ENIS: I think we are pretty close back to the original
here, aren't we?
DR. F3EICHARDTs The thing is we are getting very close back to the
original, and it waa dust a matter of trying to get in It is still
C~E~ERAL WII,LEMS; Just so we don't feel that the Committee is 8irected
to develop gadgets. That is my only concern. I mean if there isn't anything
that really appears to be extremely important to them If it doesn't
appear to be a definite aid anS assistance to them, I don't think they should
feel, well,-that they have to go ahead and keep working in this field.
Ada. S~LDO~s You moan after a reasonable attack on the problem?
aE~FiAL WILLEA~32 Yes; in other words, I would like to give the fellow
who says, "Well, I don't think this really means anything," as strong a
position as a man who wants to introduce a new kind of a gadget into the
Watch Committee considerations.
Co?A~L WALI,ACEs That is what I ha8 in mind when I said that we might
work in the idea within the limits of their time and resources, or words
to that affect, to bring in that idea. That would keep them from embarking
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on a lot of pro3ects and getting diverted from their primary fob of --
MR. S~IIiOI~s I think you still have to heave that to the good ~udgmeat
of the Committee Chairman and his cohorts. I don't see how you can write
that in. You can't legislate common sense into this thing, can you?
C0IAIQ~L WALLACEs You can't go too far without running into money
requirements which would put a strangle on it in a hurry.
I+~. SSELD4Ni Well, do you have any improvement oa --
GE3~RAL WILI.EMSs No, not much. I would suggest that we go ahead
and come up with a statement on this, and 3ust consider it, and come back
n3Cxt Meek.
Int. i5HEI1~0l~s Millard, 8,o you have any comments?
4E~ERAL LEWI$t No.
MR, ~LDOgs You are in general accord with it?
C+ENERAL LEwISs Yes.
Imo, gHELDONs Well, then let's simply try this out for size and go on.
It is a very small matter oP turning the words around dust to give the right
tone to this.
]~R. REICgARDTs The mare I look at it the more I like E,'~eneral Willens'
idea of "betaefit" in there.
Nfft. sI~I~Ol~s All right, well then that brings us down to old i.
25X1A
They forgot it, and they are not sure whether he will be
able to get over or somebody else will. ~` ~ e~~..~-a "
Mkt. S~ELDOgs We will ma1~e the transcript available. I have a few
minor suggestions to make on i. I would propose "develop and operate on a
current and continuing basis the Watch Committee intelligence ~ilan for
systematizing, ettiergizing, and coordinating the world-wide collection by
'~. S. agencies of intelligence pertinent to the Watch Committee mission."
And my second suggestion would be that if that paragraph or something
approximating it is satisfactory that we make that a.
ClCIA~L WALLACE s Make it what, sir?
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~, Wes: WoulB you read it again, Mr. Chairman?
~. gffi,yDpg; yes, "det-elop and operate on a current an8 continuing
basis the Watch Committee intelligence plan for systematizing, energizing,
and coordinating tlu world wide collection by [1. S. agencies of intelligence
pertinent to the Watch Com?ittee mission." I am not positive whether the
word "intelligence" there is correct.
~p~gAj, WII~S: Couldn't we say "indications intelligence" there?
~, SREI~OA: I think, we have to get the word "indications" in there?
QE~ERAL WILLEN~S: "Indications intelligence"?
~, SAEIIIQ~: Yes, I think that is correct. I think it is inherent
in that paragraph that it obviously must be whatever plan is formulated
has to be approve8 by the Ccmm-ittee, etc., and it is simply a question of
wY~re the continuous review of such a plan lies, and I think it lies cer-
tainly with the 6taff guided by the Chairman and the C~nittee members.
Any comments on that sug?e:tioa?
CoLpgEi, WAiS~ACE: I was dust referring back to something I wanted
to check on a moment here.
CAP'tAIW BI.T~Fis Mr. Chairman, I believe there is ore phrase that I would
like to see in there which to my mind at present is a little vagia~e. "System-
atizing, energizing, and coordinating," and I would like to add the phrase
thereafter, "through Proper channels the world-wide collection of U. S.
agencies of indications." In other words, they are goipg to have to do it
in soma mann~sr, and I believe they would need guidance a~s to how to go about
it in order that they would not have too much of s free hand.
I~R. SHEI.DON: I don't think I could ever object to anybody 8oin8
through appropriate channels.
CAPTAII4 ELLER: Or through proper channels. q'hrougk~ proper channels,
I think, would be better 'than official. It sounds a little less formalized
than
ASR. S~GDC~i I can't possibly see any harm is that.
~,, WILt,ffi~: Would you like "appropriate"?
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CAPTAIN ELLERz Appropriate.
~~ Wiz I thought not to tie their hands too mush. They
might want to stick their necks out in an emergency.
CAPTAIN SLLERz Well, I see no objection in an emergency. This
would be in a matter of routine that would be considering.
E#EI~RAL WII,~tSz I was going to say "appropriate". That gives them
a little more leeway.
CAPTAIN ELLERs Yes,, I think "appropriate" would be perfectly proper.
A+Il~. S~I,DCNz I am not certain what that adds to be sure because .
Arty further comments?
C4IAI~L WALLACEz gir, the thing I was rolling over in my mind here
was haw mush if at all that acts into the mission of this Coamiittee which
by its mission is supposed to investigate these things, and, the thing I am
worrying about is whether we are telling this group to go ahead and do some-
thing that this present body was supposed to set up. But I am not sure of
that.
A4t. s~LDONz Wait a minute, let's get that settled here and now.
Maybe there is a 8ifferenae of opinion. It was not ~ view that this Coennittee
would write the intelligence plan. It would seem to me appropriate to have
the intelligence plan written by the Watch Committee. I think we would be
here until a year from Christmas if we tried to write the intelligence plan.
CoIANEL WALLACNz Well, what I had in mind was at some time there --
I~'t. SHELDQNz I look upon this as a charter of what has to be done, and
then there are certain responsibilities that flow Prom that, and one of the
responsibilities would be that of preparing the intelligence plan.
COLOI~L WALLACEz The reason I brought up the point is because there
has been some thought, I know, that the Indications center woul8 have its
own communication channels and its own ways of going out and getting things.
I know, on the other hand, that has been talked down rather vigorously on
certain quarters too, and I was worrying about whether this particular para-
graph as now written would put on this Indications Center, if wee ca11 it
that, the burden of going out and developing such a system which would be
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go~6 ~Yo~ their capabilities, I believe.
lit. ~LDQNs Well, I don't think we can be all-wise in thin Coam~itte?
and foresee all of the problems that may confront the Indications Center or
the Committee on any long-range basis, and it could well be at a given point
that conditions were such where it might be advisable for the Indications
Center Staff to recommend to the Committee that certain action be considered.
That would simply give them the flexibility to make a Proposal, and if the
Committee in session decided that it was stn inappropriate rect~neadation,
well, it would die there. It seems to me you have to have the decisions
made by the Watch Committee as to haw it operates its Center. It seems to
me that the Indications Center Staff, on the other hand, hsa got to have
certainly the privilege to a?me up with stimulating ideas, if they have aqy,
which the Coaanittee would consider. Isn't that a reasonable interpretation
of what we are trying to set up here?
CAPTAIN ELLERs Yes, I believe so, I~r. Chairman. The reason I did
introduce "through appropriate channels" phrase in there was that the
Chairman of the Watch Goeunittee probably would not originate letters. I
don't know whether General Willems has had, occasion to write letters or not,
but I foresee that unless we had some such limitation that #xt energizing sad
systematizing it might be necessary for the Chairman of the Watch Committee
to originate re quiremeats, and I think that would be undesirable for him to
do it.
~. SI~LDON: Per $e, you mean?
? CAPTAIN ELI,ER 2 Per se . If he does it through any ens of the IAC
Committees or through the normal system, it would be perfectly reasonable
sad would be implemented.
C4IAI+~Z WALLACEs By referring back to the original (}-2 proposal,
their paragraph i., I can see that my thought was primss.ily based oa that rather
than the new wording here, sad I think particularly your "through appropriate
channels" there would clarify that, and then there wouldn't be any gusetion
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of having the Indications Center be involved in setting up any channels of
commaulicati?a of its own.
A+gt. S~LDOI~: ~Y further comments oa --
DR. REICgARDT: ter' Present understanding of it is after we had con-
sidered all of these we were going to consider which would be --
I~fft. SflELDOR: -- Committee charter or which would be Center.
I~3. REICHARDT: -- Committee charter or which would be Center charter, and
this would seem to be more Committee charter though the Center would aid it.
MR. SSELDf)AT: What is the view on that aspect3
DR. REICEARDT: It is my own view only, of course.
GENERAL WII,LEMS: We are getting back in the sem~e old bind here. It
is awfully har8 to divide all of this.
DR. REICHARDT: I think that anything that we consider Committee
charter would per se also be Center charter, but it was a question of giving
the Center more authority than we really wanted to by putting it as specifically
under certain things -- specifically under their charter -- such as, for
instance, a new f. could very well be under the Center charter without any
problems here.
MR. S~LDC1~: We11, I don't hold any strong brief of where it should
be. It doesn't me~ke an awful lot of difference to me where it is as long
as we get the idea into the paper.
f3ENERAL WIIS~Ss It certainly shouldn't be last.
A+lR. SRELTICF: If we are talking is terms of relative .importance of
duties, it does seem to me perhaps it should came a little higher in the
scale, that is all. Where it comes I don't think ie too important. Timewise
it is one of the first things presumably that would be tackled because it
is fundamental to the operation. Well, why don't you gentlemen decide where
it should go. I really don't have any strong preference either way excepting
I think it is a very important aspect of the paper.
ffirEENERAL WII: I would like to suggest that we try it for size, that
if in writing up the notes if you --
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~ MR. gHEI,DpNS Why don't we do this? Why don't we put it first, and
a
then we will circulate a redraft of this whole section of it. In other
words, we get a whole new draft, and put it there, and then we can see how
it hits us because sometimes when you read the whole paper through again,
you msy decide that it needs 'to be shifted some.
CAPTAIN ELLERs Mr. Sheldon, before we go on if I could bring up one
more question is regard to the intent here in this paragraph. Wherever we
use "on a contirnwus basis" I feel that that introduces a problem which
is going to increase the personnel requirements if the Watch Committee has
to perform the fluty on its-own with no assistance from the other agencies,
and what I feel would be a little broader and a little mere flexible basis
would be to introduce the phrase, "develop and operate on a continuous
basis in cooperation with the IAC agencies" with the idea --
Mft. SSLII90N: E3ood morning, Bill.
MR. TRUEHSART: Covered with shame I forgot this thing altogether.
Mft. SH~LDE)Ns We have missed you. We felt, however, we should proceed,
and we will try to Supposing I fill you in at the end. I think that
would be the simplest way.
MR. ZRtTEHEART: All right, I 8on't want to delay it.
CAPTA'!N N'LZERs To go back 3ust a bit to the phrase, "operate on a
continuous basis." With that given as a requirement to the Secretary it
will force them into a 24-hour watch it seems to me with no leeway. However,
if it would be "on a continuous basis in cooperation with the IAC agencies,"
I think it would give enough flexibility so it could be arranged depending
on the situation at the time.
MR. SHELmN= Doa't you think that is inherent in the phraseY How else
can it be done?
CAPTAIN EIS~Ft: The words are pretty specific, and, for instance, we
have a watch in the Navy Department in connection with this -- continuous
watch. We have a Duty Captain, a Duty Commander, and we have about four or
five other officers on. Now they are supporting the Watch Committee, acid on
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a continuous basis, and that could be interpreted a.s a requirement for the
Watch Committee itself -- for the Secretariat itself which would be a very
much increased Secretariat as far as personnel goes, and would duplicate the
existing mechanism that we already have.
MR. SHELDOB: But we are addressing ourselves here tv the intelligence
plan; in other words, "to develop and, operate it oa a continuing basis," and
the word "continuing" there was put there to imply that if you write a
paper once that isn't the end of it. It should be reviewed and kept current
in the light of experience and subsequent developments. I think maybe our
context is a little, differeirt.
C~JIABEL WAhLACi~s There has been a difference. You used the word
"continuous". Y?u said "continuing". Is that correct, sir?
~. SIB: Yes, all we are talking about here is, "bet's keep this
intelligence plan up to date and alive." That is all we are trying to say
here. I don't think that has ar~y~real bearing.
CAPTAIB EIS,ER: I am satisfied: yes. I see your point.
bfft. TEtt~HEARTs What paper are we working on?
Agt. B: What happened here in effect is this. I thick I can help
lit. TRBEI~ARTs Well, go ahead. I think I have the gist of what you
are talking about.
Int. S~LDt~Bs Bow that you are here I would rather have you right along
with us.
Bit. TRUE~ART: I don't seem to have my copy with me.
25X1 A I have one, Bill.
Ate. S~I.DQli's Brlefly, Sill, what has happened here is that last time
we were discussing paragraph f. of this particular draft, and I had certain
reservations on that paragraph, and then as a result of presenting h., which
is before you, I then said that as far as we were concerned we would be glad
to accept f. provided the Committee accepted h.
BR. TRARTi h.?
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1~. SHELDt)!~a h. h. hag bees a~ecepted with the amendment ag foLtows:
"prepare material for use by the Watch Committee to assist is its deliberation
and the formulation of its conclusions".
Then we considered old h. which becomes new i., and with these minor
amendments was accepted "coordinate the reproduction and dissemination of
approved Watch Committee reports". Then we dealt with trying to crank the
mechanical gad?ets and side into the program, anS if you will ].cwk at ~.
which is by your--
MR. BART: Yeg.
bfft. $gEZDOAi It was accepted for size with the understanding that
there were certain minor rephrasings necessary which we would triad of think
over during the next week, and, Frank, will you be sure that a clean copy
is gotten out on that.
25X1 A Ye6.
A+Il~. sRELDOHs But I don't think you need waste your time on that at
the moment. Aad then we reached i., and i., has been tentatively agreed
to read as follows: "develop and operate oa a current and continuing basis
the Watch Committee intelligence plan for systematizing, energizing' and
coordinating world-wide collection by U.S. agencies of indications intel-
ligence pisrt3,rent to the Watch Committee mission," and then we inserted
the wording, "through appropriate channels".
COLOBEL WALLACE: That cams after the word."coordinating".
A+ffi. S$SLDaNs After the word "coordinating".
And that ig the point we
have reached now. The next query was whether or not that particular para-
graph, since it was an important function of the whole picture, should not
be placed higher up in the scale of duties, and wee decided that what we
would do would be to issue a clean paper, and then we could all have a look
at it_aad see where it fitted best.
BR. ~RUEBEARTa It could be taken to mean, T suppose, the whole
function of the Working Qroup comprised is thisY
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Ate. S~LDaN: We11, then we will circulate the clean piece of paper
fox consideration at the next maeting, and I assume then that we should try
to take a step further and deal with such things as composition, location,
and things of that sort. Isn't that our next task here? Are we all agreed
that that is the .next attack on the problemR In other words, who is going
to be represented, and where is it going to operate, and the like?
~. TRL~ART: I seem to recall that we were going to go over these
things again to see whether some of them should apply to the Watch --
MR. S~LDON: That is right, Commaittee dutles or Indications Center
duties. I think we can do that when we look at the clean piece of paper.
Irfft. BART: Yes.
MR. BHEI.DQN: And we can coma here with our own ideas as to how to
set that up the next time, I think. Well, I know of nD better way of
tackling the next problem than going 'back to the original suggestion that
we made on-the 20th of October an composition and membership. Supposing
we tackle that as a point of departure.
COIANEL WALLACE: 20 October or 20 November?
MEt. S~LDON: Well, the first draft circulated was 20 October, 'S3.
It was the
COIANEL WALLACE: Yea, I have found it.
NR. S~oNs It was the paper from which most of this discussion
has stemmed. I don't think ws need deal at the moment with where in the
paper this shoul8 rest, but i am sure it should rest somewhere early in
the paper. That is a final drafting problem. I take it we are all agreed
there shoul8 be a Chairman of the Watch Committee. I don't think anybody
will argue along those lines, will they? There must be a Chairman of the
Committee. Now the idea that we tried to introduce in this old b. of the
20 of October paper was briefly this. Our feeling is that the Watch Committee
must have the maximum of support and priority among all of the IAC agencies,
and we simply raised the question as to whether that cannot be engendered
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by a concept of a rotation over a period of time, and that is the reason why
we wrote it this way for a specit'ied period. What are the members' views
on a proposal along those lines?
DR. REICHARDT: Fraaan my own standpoint my present viewpoint is the
rotation would preferably be limited to at least leaving us out.
MR. SHELDCIHs I wasn't suggesting how the rotation should be accomplished
or anything of the sort, but in general as a principle we would tend to
favor somie technique of rotation ~iithout at the moment having at~y' very
fixed ideas as to who, or how, or for how long,, or anything along those
lines.
DR. REICHARDTs I was thinking purely if rotation worked up that we
could very well --
bdi. KUHRTZ2 I think the selection of the IAC wou18 aceoamodate that
point. There may be a time when you would be proper for it.
MR. SBELDt)Hs You can't anticipate those things.
MR. TRt~HEART: It is the people's choice.
COIAH~L WALLACEs Right now the Chairman is appointed and stays until
he gets a change of assignment. Isn't that the way it is?
(~EI~ERAL WI[.LEM.Ss He is appointed by the Chairman, the Director of
Central Intelligence.
MR. SHEI.Df,11~i He is appointed by the Chaix~nan of the IAC who under the
present statutes is the DCI. This proposal here that we put forw~$ was that
he woul8 in effect be appointed by the IAC as such rather than by an
individual.
t3E~AAL WII I think that ought to be. It seems to ma what woe
should indicate here is the IAC should designate the Chairman.
Ion. SHELDON: That is our feeling that it shouldn't rest solely in the
discretion of an individual.
aEI~RAI, WII~: Yes but I mean whether or not we want to put in this
arbitrary requirement of rotation. Don't misunderstand me. I am sure that
I will be gore from the Washington scene before I am involved. There is no
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personal interest in this, but sometimes if you write into a charter that
there has to be rotation there is some difficulty because it is a fixed
matter that .,has to be sort of complied with. If you leave it to the 3udg-
ment of the IAC it would seem to me it would give them a little mare flexi-
bility, and you would insure that they have the man that they feel mast
competent to be the Chairman heading the effort up.
MR. SSFLDOH: Well, I think that is one side of the coin. The other
side of the coin is that in the long run I think there is a desirability.
We feel that there should be a stated rotational concept set Forth.
MR. TRUE~ARTs Does the location of the Center affect this me-tter
of rotation?
~fft. SHES~DONs If you want to deal with the location first, and then
.deal with these other. aspects later, that will be perfectly all rift with
Ngt. TRLIEI~ART: Is it pertinent? I mean is the material --
~. S~LDOBs It might be, yes, it might be.
1?rEI~RAL WIIs I don't think it has to be though. I don't think
it has to be.
Int. TRt~H~ART: Bust wondered, for example, if let's say we decided,
well, the State Department would maintain the Center, would be located in
the State Department Building. Would it be efficient to have the Chairman
from the Davy, for example? Could he properly carry on his 8uties; in other
words, unless the Center were very close by? That is the question.
MR. S~LDOB: Well, it seems to me fundamental to this operation that
the locus of the Center should be in the Pentagon. It seems to me reasonably
clear as far as I am concerned. I think that is the proper place for it.
Wit. TRtJE~ARTs I would certainly agree. I hasten to add that we are
not making any bid at all.
I~{. s~i,DO~s Dees anybody feel differently on that score? Does anybody
feel differently on that sevre? Are there any contrary views as to where
the best location far it is?
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COLONEL WALLACE: You are speaking of the Watch Committee itsel.i' to
hold its meetings, or are arou taking is the Indications Center as well?
MR. SHELDONS I am talking about the Indications Center because I look
upon them as a kind of a team that is interrelated, and one supports the
other, and I look upon it as a unit really.
COLONEL WALLACES The view we had in the paper we put out initially
last fall --along mimeographed paper -- the Indications Center should be
in CIA.
MR. SSELDC)N: That did not se"t very well with CIA. I don't think that
is the right way to run it either.
~. K~tTZ: I would think the Committee as such would have to meet
where its tools are in the Center.
MR. S~LDON: I think that is for sure. I think the whole thug is
part and parcel of the same problem. I think the locus is obvious, and I
think that wee can settle ths~t now. Maybe w~c can go on with the other problems.
CAPTAIN ~LLER: As the Watch Committee o! the IAC, it wou18 seem
that i~ an emergency arose of sufi'ieient gravity to meet continuously that
we would need to be in the vicinity.
MR. SHELDON: You have a consx-unications problem, and you have --
CAPTAIN ELLER: We would nee8 to be in the vicinity of the IAC I would
3 ?
MR. SHELDON: Just because the IAC happens to meet here doesn't
ioLlow I don't think.
Int. TR~TEHEART: It is easier to move the IAC than it would be to move
the Center.
CAPTAIN ELLER: I wanted to bring that point up.
MR, S~LD(>N: I can sae a condition if there was an emergency the
SAC might meet continuously in the Center.
Agt. TRUE~ARTs The Center I can see having a lot of files, etc.
Aft. SHELDE3N2 You have a lot of tools to work with, and the IAC might
want to go into this Center and have a look at this on a It seems to be
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quite obvious where the Center should be and where the meetings of the Com-
mittee should be. It is the center of the military problem.
MR. TZs Well, if you are wanting an expression on stands, I think
in view of the present coaanunication structure, etc., I certainly go along
with you on its location at the Pentagon.
1NEi. 8~?,Dt)1'9t I don't think there is any argument myself.
~, TRUEBEART: That being the case, ie it really efficient to have a
Chairman from anything other than the Pentagon? I Suet wonder how somebody
sitting in CIA or State could exercise any supervision over the staff which
I gather we expect the Chairman to e~oercise.
MR. SHELDOIts Well, you are suggesting in effect that the rotation
should be otre designe8 to rotate as between the three services and the
Joint Staff?
~, 'I'ftUEAEARTt tar that y?u simply have an Executive Agent on this
problem.
~. BF~I,Df)&: Yes, I am perfectly agreeable to that. It . is no thoug~-t
on our part of anything different froon that.
i+dt. TRiIESEARTs I would be glad to go along with a rotating Chairman --
don't misunderstand me -- all the way ~'o~ ~ that is the view of the
ma3ority, but I dust thought it wouldn't be inefficient perhaps to have to
do it that way.
~. ggEi,'ppS; Well, as General Willems points up so well, it is a
working team, don't you see, that you have got there. You have got your
tools, etc., and it is quite obvious to me your Center must be in the Pentagon.
Foil?wing your line of thought, I think since this is largely a military
problem, it seems to me that the Chairman should be from the Services ar frvm
the Joint Staff as the case may be. We certainly have no desire to par-
ticipate in the Chairman hip of the Comnnittee. And while it is conceivable
at some time that .you can't river tell.
MR. TRUEHEARTi I wonder if the best thing to do would be to leave it
.completely Flexible as your wording does, does it notY You don't say anything
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about rotating.
Mft. ~LD()Ni Yes, you do when you say a specified period. That in
effect inv?lves a rotation,, don't you see?
DR. REICgARDT: At least a consideration periodically anyway which gen-
erally involves a rotation.
MR.:3NN'LD4N: I still think a rotational aspect is desirable.
COLONEL WALLACEs Well, I didn't read the implication of a rotation
in there. In effect, the Chairman might get another vote of confidence as
it were and c?atinue for another specified period here, whatever it was
selected for.
Nfft. SHELDf)l?s Well, since this for my money largely is a service
problem, if we are agreed that it belongs is the Pentagon, and I hear no
dissenting voices on that score, then I would think that there should be
some provision ma8e for rotation between the four elements of the IAC which
represent the military and who have their locus is the Pentagon. Is there
any strong ob~eation to that around the table?
GENERAL LEWIBz I don't think that is a particularly good idea. I
wou18 dust as leave leave it the way it is -- leave it open.
tit. TftUEHEART: Let the IAC decide whenever they want --
DR. REICgARI~Ts We can only make recoamendations to the IAC anyway,
so it is naturah~.y their decision.
MR. TR~ART: I mean leave it the IAC would approve a place and
decide on an ad hoe basis what they are going to flo about a chairman.
MR. 3BELDON: A Chairman to be appointed by the IAC for a specified
period. Is that bought all around --
A+ff~. Kt~RTZs Bought.
I~fft. TRtJE~ARTs To be understood that this did not mean rotation and
didn't mean no rotation; it was completely open.
I~Il2. S~LDONS Leave it entirely open; it is all right by me.
CAPTAIN'ELLFR: I had a recommendation on that,, Mr. Chairman, that
we indicate that a minimum and ,?A.yi,Y,~,~ time might be proper, although I
didn't feel t~9o.strongly about it. I thought I would bring it up.
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Imo. SRET~D('~N: It would be interesting tv know What your thoughts were
on that. I have no net figures in mY mind.
CAPTAIN ELLEE2t Well, between twa and three years -- a tnints~m, of not
less than one and probably two, and a ~~Yi~~ of approximately two to three
as a starting point.
GENERAL WIIS~s We]1., there again it seems to me We are legislating
tY~e IAC.
Int. SSFI~DON: You are putting guidelines to the IAC if you do that.
t~ENERAL WILLEMSi Why don't we dust say --
MR. S~LDf)Nz If you want to leave it flexible let's leave it flexible
without putting any thoughts in their minds.
GENERAL WILI~MS: Yes, and dust put the period after IAC -- Chairman
to be appointed by the IAC. Then if they don't like a Chairman, he is ~t
delivering the goods or something about him perhaps -- there might be
something about him why they might not want to continue him -- they have the
authority to appoint a new Chairman.
I~II2. SHELD?Ns I think you give the IAC a greater flexibility if you
put in a specified period.
GENERAL I,EWISs I think it is closer to what you Want than if you leave
it out.
Int. S~LDONS I think you are better off I think it is score
flexible if you make a specific tour out of this.
GENERAL WILLEI~s You feel that if somebody is in there, and they
don't want tv change him unless he is --
A~lR. fSAELDfDNi or per contra they might want to change him, and then if
there is a apecifie8 time it is easier to make a change than if there is no
specified time.
CAPTAIN EL]'~Rs Well, it would appear hurtful to the Watch Committee
to change chairmen at any frequent rate. That would be one possible desir-
ability of having a mini~,m ili there. That would be the on]:y thing, but
the IAC will do it.
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MR. SAN: If we leave in here "for a specified tine", then it is
up to the IAC to determitye themselves what they think a proper specified
time is. They might say that ao and so is proposed for atwo-year period,
and if that didn't meet with the IAC'a views -- anybody on-the IAC -- then
they could discuss it at that time. I think this gives the IAC the greatest
possible flexibility. All right on that?
I~ow to follow the language of what we had written here. Maybe the
word "Executive Secretary" is not really what we have set up here. It is
Chief of the Working droop of the Ind.icationa Center. That is perhaps more
near the phraseology. It sounds cumbersome but --
MR. TRL~ARTi Would this man be a member of the Committee himself?
Ate. SHELIiONs Well, I think that is open for discussion.
MA. TRt~HEARTs I mean was it your intent that he be a member?
MR. Sffi,DOM: Igo, it was not; he would simply be If you are
going to have an Indications Center you have to have a Chi?f of it, I assume,
and that was simply who is going to be the Chief of the Center, an8 then he
simply takes his directions from the Chairman and in consort with the Com-
mittee members.
QENERAL WILLEMS; I believe it would be better if he definitely were
not a member of the Committee.
MR. BHELUO~: We had no concept that he would be.
Aft. T~tt~ART2 I think you might dust drop that part down to the part
where you describe the Center then since it suggests to ma that from the
title, composition, and membership it suggests to me that this man was meant
to be a member.
f,4EL+~RAL LEWIS: Well, I have a recommendation there. I think that the
paragraph is a little fuzzy as to ,just what you are talking about, and I would
think that it would be desirable to put a new title on the paragraph and
call it "organization an8 Composition of the Watch Committee." They in your
first sentence you would say essentially what you have already agreed to here
except that"I don't think you have gotten to the part about the senior official
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representing each IAC orgaxization have you?
I+lR. SHELDOA: No, we haven't gotten that far, but --
tiE1~ERAL LEWIS: But assuming that is generally agreed, the first
sentence would talk about the Watch Comrittee being compose8 of a Chairman
to be appointed by the IAC for a specified period and the senior ?fficial
regresenting each IAC organization, and then the second sentence talking
about the fact that the Committee wil].t>e supported by an Indications Center.
Nfft. SSEL~OHs Yee.
fIE~EiAL LEWIS: Indications Center which would be headed by a Chief
or an E~oecutive -- whatever you want to call him, so and eo, and so and so.
See 7
MR. SHELDON: I think theft expresses the picture very neatly. I
would buy that approach to the problem. Does anybody feel differently on
that score? Well, let's do this then. Let's see if we can reach a
definition -- maybe not officially -- but let's talk a little about the
senior official representing each IAC organization, and then we might ask
Millard to come up with a redraft of this paragraph for the next meeting.
All right?
(~E~1L LEWIS s Yes .
~. Self: We did have some discussion at the last meeting on
level of representation, and there didn`t seem to be an entire unanimity of
opinion on that. Perhaps we might readdress ourselves to that facet.
t~EPERAL LEWIS: Well, the way I have this thing constructed now. Your
first sentence 1a going to talk about who is on the Watch Committee, not who
is in the Center.
MR. SIlELUOIf: Yes.
QEIfSAAL LEWIS: In other words, your first sentence says that the
Watch Committee will be composed of a Chairman, see, and a senior official
representing each IAC organization. And not talking about the Center. In
the second sentence you talk. about the Center.
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MR. S~LDONs Then you go on. Your rs;~tt sentence, "The Chairman will
be appointed by the IAC for a specified period."
~ERERAL LEWIS: No, the first sentence reads, "The Watch Committee
will be composed of a Chairman, to be appointed by the IAC for a specified
period and a senior official representing each IAC organization." The
first sentence is cleanly talking about who is on the Watch Committee, not
who is in the Center.
MR. TR[1ESCART: I understand.
t3ENERAL LEWIS: gee. Then the only thing that the second sentence
talks about is the Committee woul8 be supported by the Center which is
headed by so and so, end it consists of an Administrative Secretariat and
an Indications Qroup -- two portions. The Secretariat on one side and the
Working Qroup on the other side, see, and that shows you what the organization
is and composition of the Watch Committee, but it goes farther than that and
tells something about the Center which supports the Watch Committee. Then
you get into the details back here and Further on is the paper, you see.
MR. SHEELUOPts That seem8 lige a clean concept.
GEI~RAL LEWIS: so whey you are talking about a senior official repre-
stinting each IAC organization,-you are talking about the Watch Committee
and not the Center here, so it is a question of who wants on the Watch
Committee.
Mkt. S~OI(s Right.
MR. TR~~ART: Was it your thought we ought to have more a definition
of what a senior official was3
A+lR. SHEII~P~: Only informal. We were having an informal discussion
last time which was inconclusive. If and when Millard circulates this
paragraph for us, and the wording "senior official representing each IAC
organization" becomes a satisfactory statement to all of us, it doesn't
require any further definition in the paper itself, but I simply feel
personally that it is desirable for tts to have ast idea as to what general
level that senior oFfieial woul8 be to give the necessary stature to the Watch
Committee. We discussed it int'ormally at the last meeting, an8 there were
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some slightly divergent views expressed, and I thought it might be profitable
to continue that discussion a little and, see if we could come nearer to a
meeting of the minds on it. Fot that it would affect the paper per se, but
it might affect the subsequent action if we had an exchange of ideas along
these lines, and it would be easier for us each to make nominations to the
Coamnittee when the time came.
~. ARTs Yes.
E~EB~RAL LEWIS: Well, I have some very definite feelings, but I ~uat
don't, and I can tell you why, but I really think the important thing for
the moment is to decide sot so mush about the, senior, but does each member
of the IAC want the right to have a member on it so that we can go ahead
and discuss the other elements of this paragraph and get the elements of
the whole paragraph settled so we can redraft it and get on with it? The
question of senior I have thought about a very great deal since ~+e last met,
and I am convinced of one principle that you are going to have to have a
considerable differential between your representation on the Center and oa
the Committee. DTow the differential can be in various terms. You can talk
about differential in rank maybe and maybe not. Asaybe that in some instances
won't make any difference, but I think ma~fbe it does make a difference.
Certainly differential in experience may also be another element, and I am
reasonably sure that differential in the structure in your organization
makes a big 8ifference because you are going to find that the man who is
working in the Center is isolate8 to that sole problem whereas the man on
the Committee ought to be a broader man, broader scope man, a man who has
an opportunity to see intelligence in a much broader picture. If he is dust
another individual like the man on the Center .say, for instance, we
put aColonel -- now take Air Force -- over hire. If the Colonel is a
we will say good, sharp Colonel, Which I hope he would be, and say he ,gate
in this Center and he sees this little world that he is in, which is relatively
small compared with the whole intelligence analysis business. And then on
the Committee is another Colonel who does not have the opportunity to eee
ffiuch more than he has seen, and working in this Center. Then the Committee,
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you see, isn't going to be much better than having the Center people set as
the Coannittee. Now T dust want to toss that in for you all to chew on in
your thinking about this question of senior. I don't think that we should
necessarily try to settle it today. As a matter of fact, I think I would
think about it some. In summary the principle is, in my opinion, that there
has, to be considerable differential between the Committee and the Center
or else you are not going to gain very much by having a Committee sitting
on top of a bunch of smart people in the Center. So how do you get that
differential? And, of course, you want this Cosanittee to have the maximum
possible stature.
~. TRt~~ARTs I think that point is extremely well taken. The only
qualification I would have would be you can't have so much of a differential
that your top man is not substantively concerned with intelligence but is
simply an administrator.
C~EI~IERAL LEWIS: In our case I would think we would certainly want ,
You see, we are organized into branches, and then into divisions, and then
into the entire estimates. There is a man sits on top aP all of the
estimating business, you see, so here he is. He has divisions under him
working on various kinds of estimates, and then here are the people through
the shop down here who are pulling all, of this material out and working on
a problem. Now if the man on this Committee isn't fairly high up in this
structure he isn't going to get to look at the big picture, you see, so he
isn't going to be of much more help than the man that is already working
in the Center, and that has been unquestionably the big advantage of having
fieneral Willems, you see, on a fairly high level, being on the Committee
and being ChaixZnan of the Committee, but particularly 'being on it because
he is up here, and he can back off from some of these trees and see the woods,
and he has other things that he gets frown day to day that generally fit into
the picture and maybe make him much more stable and lase apt to react to some
little thing that happened somewhere, which he can obviously see is of no
particular consequence in the big picture.
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I would suggest that we try and 8iscuss the rest of the elements
though here and leave the senior word for further discussion later, par-
ticularly here if we could get oa with the rest of it here, the official
representing each IAC organization.
I!~t. $HELYtOns Well, is there anybody who does not feel that each member
of the IAG should not have a member as the Committee, and per contra does
any member of the IAC not wish to participate? I would doubt that that were
the case. Is there anybody that would not wish to be represented? If we
can take that for granted, so that the language that you proposed, Mi]1ard,
I think is going to meet with reasonably good acceptance on that. So that
in effect there seems to be unanimity on the composition of the Comsr-ittee
and on the method by which the Chaiza:-an is appointed, in addition to which
I think we have all agreed that the locus of the operation should rest in
the Pentagon. I think we have made a fair amount of headway on that. Is
that a reasonably correct summery of what everybody feels? Eo dissent on
that score?
t+~t. T~ttJE~ART: I would have thought we all agreed on what fdeneral
Lewis said about the --
MR. SHELDON: I was coming to that next because he intimated he might
want txs to think it over rather thaw have say further discussion at this time
on it. I think his concept is important, sad I think we should all give
full thought to it. Everybody may not be prepared at this moment to come
up with a yea or nay on it.
I?R. REICSARDTs We go along. I em dust raising the question which
probably has occurred to all of you. Presently the Watch Committee, of
course, has Qeneral Willems as Chairman, and then he has mare or less an
Army member there. At least he presents the data. An8 the IAC, of course,
Mr. Dulles is Chairman of, but Dr. Kest presents the CIA part of the thing,
or at least the O1~ part of the problem, and you get oa soma of the other
Committees, and, of course, what you have is the Chairman acting as his own
representative .
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lit. TRUE~ART: Well, there isn't any question that Mr. Dulles is
the CIA member of the IAC.
DR. REICNARDT: Well, true, an8 there is no question that f3eneral
WiJ.lems is not the Array member, but what I meant was that you bave here the
membership, you see, would be a Chairman and a senior official representing
each IAC organization which would --
Imo. SHELDON: You are raising a point as to whether --
DR. RNICHARDT: -- give the Chairman two votes if' he was actually
a member.
dE1~RAL WII~I~S: That is a good point.
ASR. TRUE~RTs It is not the kind of thing we are voting on as much
as place.
MR. SEELDCI~s It seems to me that is academic. I personally would have
assumed the Army would have its member .Specifically, tt other words,
that . . .let's take an instance. Supposing the Davy had the Chairmanship
at this given point. I would assume the Navy would have a representative
there tcao.
tiENERAL LEWIS: You don't at the ~. What is the difference between
this and the dIC on a lower Level?
EiE1~iAL W~2 It is a good point. Actually I think it would luep
a little better balance if you didn't have another vote in there on the
Chairnoan's aide.
aEHERAL LEWIS: JIC whoever is the senior man present dust simply
acts as the Master of Ceremonies, but he is prim,e~rily there to represent
his service.
MR. SHELD()N: Well, I aaa interested in the service point of view on
this thing because I am going to assw~e it is going to be the services that
are going to provide the Chairman. As far as I am concerae8 it doesn't
make any difference.
GREAERpS, WTTTFAd~; The only point is that then the IAC is selecting
the member from the Agency who is going If they are designating the
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Chairman they select a representative then from the Agency.
Agt. KIJ~TZ: Well, if you are going to spell out a voting schedule
there I think it would be very simple dust to express that each IAC agency
has one vote whether the Chairman votes for that agency or a member. It is
still one vote for the agency, and --
QENERAL WILLEMS: I think that is a better approach to it.
E~E~R.AI, LEWISs Wouldn't have one vats each on IAC in settling on an
intelligence estimate.
DER. REICEARI~: I didn't mean as a vote.
~. i3HELDON: I didn't think we should introduce. the vote aspect into
this paper frankly.
Aft. TRLTEHEARTs I think you can clarify all of these points by
rephrasing a little bit to say, "The Committee shall consist of a senior
representative from each IAC agency, one of whom shall be designated Chair-
man by the IAC. This enablers each agency to select its own members for the
Committee, and yet the IAC wou18 still select the Chairman, and I dare say
if you wanted to it could be worked out that any the Navy would designate
their member, and knowing full well that the IAC was going to name a
Chairman later on if there was a question of rank involved or something like
that.
CAPTAIN ELI: I am sure that that would be of assistance to the
Committee itself in order to have . I believe it helps to have the
Committee Chairman more senior possibly. It might not make a difference,
but Ibelieve -- it seems to me -- it is a very logical way to have it, an8
I agree with the idea that you expressed, Mr. Trueheart.
Int. ~t~IEART: our people have always felt very strongly that it was
most important you have a general officer chairing this Committee.
~. gRt That might be a device actually whereby the difference
in levels would be achieved.
DR. REIf:HARDT: Well, this is one of the reasons I brought it up and
orie of the things I was thinking of last week. I thought of level.
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MR. SRELDOl~: well, you are going to circulate that before the next
meeting, Millard, or will we ,get it at the next meeting?
GENERAL LEWISs No, I will circulate it. I will turn the sentence
around. I will circulate it before the next meeting, and let's try to
settle on the rest of this so we can get the whole thing dratted up at once.
Imo. SHELDORs I haven't got your next sentence in exact --
GENERAL LEWISs Well, the structure of the next sentence is that the
Committee will be supported by an Indications Center heade8 by an
Ezxcutive to be provide8 by so and so and consisting of an Administrative
Secretariat and an Indications Group or whatever the technical names are
for these people.
Int. SftELDt3Bs I thank that concept as far as I am concerned is
perfectly satisfactory. How floes the Coaunittee feel on that concept as
expresse8 by f3eneral LeXisY boas anybody wish to comment on it?
C4IANEL WALLACES I would like to ask a gwestion. At what point will
we stipulate what the composition of that Indications Center will be, or
the membership of that?
GENERAL LEWISs Wall,, I think you can do that back here in the back
where you get to talking about the Center. You can then get to talking about
its composition in detail, see.
C4LO1~L WALLACE: Right.
GENERAL LEwI$s But I think the important thing to do here is very
simply and cleanly talk about the Committee and then talk about the general
organization of the Center so that you Gan make it clear that you have two
separate activities one supporting the other.
COIANEL WALLACEs Yes, sir.
MR. SHELI1oNs Do I read your sentence Do I understand it cor-
rectly to mean that the senior of the Working Group would be the boss of the
"administrative aspect of it and the substantive aspect equally"?
t~19ERAL LEWISs Yes, whoever the Sxeeutive is is going to be the boss
of it.
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lei. SHELD()H: He will run the two boxes?
GE~RAL LEWIS: Yes, here I picture here you start uP with the Com-
mittee, and then a line running down to the --
I+~. SIIE?~DE)Ns Center.
GENERAL LEWIS: -- canter structure, but it actually runs into a
box marked "Executive", and they there are two bo~aes off of him. One of
them is "Administrative Secretariat" and the other is the "Indications
Qrroup". I think it is highly desirable to separate the two.
MR. N: You could put 8,ifferent types of bodies wou18 be neces-
nary in each case. How does that concept nett with your thoughts? How
does that meet with your thoughts?
MR. KZJHRTZS I think that is vary wise, and I might suggest that in
our 8raft we could set up a little box of that sort dust for clarification
and understanding.
MR. BHELDC)!~s It strikes me as a good, wo~kablq clean-cut proposal
from an operating point of view. ~encral Willems, would you favor that?
F#ENERAL WIIS~S: It looks goad to me, and I think we ought to have
it came out and try it for size.
aEI~,RAS, LEWIS: Well then what we will do is to . We will fix up
this paragraph as far as we have gone and Put a little picture on there
of gust what the structure mould look like.
MR. SHELDCI~': I think that is fine .
COLQNEL WALIACE: That was what you brought out, I believe, in this
~ December meeting. I know looking back here .Isn't that what you --
f~ENERAL IgWIS: I have had this in mind for a long time.
C4IANEL WALLACE: I thought I recalled seeing such a picture when you
started describing.,
Int. SHELDON: I think we have made some progress this morning. Tine
is short now. It is near our normal adjournment time, and I suggest that we
call it a day.
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CAPTAIA ELI,ERt Mr. Chairman, I have a.draft which I prepsxed sometime
beak on a suggested version for the Preamble. If you remember I felt we
might state it. I might submit this, and when the future drafts come up . .
It is not significantly different from the other one; however, we felt the
wording would be a little more --
~. SHELDON: I think ~: woul8 very much life to see that. Frank,
will you control the distribution on that.
CAPTAIN ELLER: I think there are enough copies here for.--
Aga. SBELDONs That will give us some more homework to do.
Ate. 'i'RUEIiEART: I would like to tell the Committee that A4r. Evans is
back on duty now and may wGl1 be pinking up hie torch.
MR. S~I.J~QN': In other words, he had the ore cataract --
MR. 'IR~JEHEART: Just ome removed this time, and he has very thick
glasses, but he can see better with them than he could before. I don't know
dust when I will return the suit to him, but pretty soon, Ithink -- as soon
as he is able to feel he has gotten back into the swing of things.
A+~2. ST~LDON: If we go as feat as we did today -- we made more progress
today perhaps than we did in malty meetings before -- he better hurry up.
I don't want to predict because we might reach some stumbling block here
that might lock us for meetings.
Agt. TR~ARTs I was prepared to bet we would be here after the 4th
of July.
MR. S~LDONs I think we are moving along. The Director asked me this
morning how ~, were eosning along, and I told him we were moving rather
slowly, but I thought we would eventua,7.].y some up with some constructive
ideas, axi8 the international climate was not such that we needed to meet
eoatinually. If we get pressure put on us we can meet more often, but at
the moment I think the pane at which we are going is Unless any of
the members feel w~c should press forward faster.
E~ENERAL LEWIB: Well, it is awfully slow; however, there is an awful
lot in mV opinion to be dome. I dust think we are getting starte8 here now
with these words. There is a lot to be done and to be highly constructive..
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=4.
T~~ ~~:~~~~ ~
~. TRUEH~ART= I wou18 have said the thing you have been very much
interested in working out -- a worl8-wide system -- is 6oim6 to be a very
complicatel8 and long time Proposition.
~~AL LEWISs I don't think ao, fellow. I think it is going to be
but I don't have any doubt ~ ~Y mind that it not only
difficult in Puts
can be dons at least in part an8 maybe much more than we think at the moments
~,~ ought to go out an8 ~t representation in from the various theaters,
talk to them, and see what we aan do, and then we will know how far we can
~~ Zg~~ART: I don't question it can be doses but I say it will
take a gad deal of work by this Comm:it'tee to get it wrapped uP?
GEH T,EWIS: I don't think it is going to be done in maybe the
but I think it is vary import~t -- ~~ important --
next 30 or ~5 days
one of the most important things that we esn dA, and I think w'e definitely
o: t to do it. Certainly if we don't nobody' else is going toe and I think
~ aced as much
it is absolutely vital that we try and get those people as ge
ration
~, ys; van, an8 it is ge-ing to depend an awful lot on their coupe
as to how much we can gear them to get them geared so that we can be
mutually beneficial, and actually they can be a lot more beneficial to ~
then probably than we are gc-ing to be to them. But aver there in the
theaters where the collection occurs, and when you boil all of this thing
down, as far as I +~- converned it is one) a question of the will to 8o it
nd,a upon collections
an8 do it right. We can do it. And the eecon8 one depe
mod,, by golly, if we can really develop those two things in no uncertain
terms ~d go after this we can improve the process very materially, and we
have got to have bath of them. After you have the will on the part of
eve1.ybody~ not only here, but out in the theater, and you are not god to
have to worry much about will in the theater now. I can tell you this
they already
fellow, Qeneral areuntY~r and General Hull over there, boys
have it as far as 'the will to do everything possible to give them wax'n~6
as far as the theater is vonverned, but this collection business'-ia mighty
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important in. addition to the will, and they can do much more about that than
we can, and even gust the stimulation of this, I think, is going to be help-
ful to us all.
CAPTAIR ELLEFts General Lewis, do you feel that we should do that, this
Committee, that is, or we should male a recommendation to the IAC that such
an action --
GEDIgEtAL LEWI3: If we made a reconunandation to the IAC some other
Committee would pick this thug up, some Committee that doesn't have the
background-and the desire to make this thing work, you see, and it will dust
be another Committee somewhere, so in my opinion we ought to do it unless
we can find some Committee or activity that would do it more vigorously
than we would do it. But I don't think you are going to find it.
MR. SHEI~DOI~: I think that is part of our fob, Millard. I don't
think there is any question about it.
GEI~;RAL LEWIS: Well, it is a fob to dA it now. If we can find some
other activity that is better to do it than we are, that is one thing, but
T think that it is part of our fob to either do it ourselves or be sure
that somebody else is going to dv it, and I think. it is better for us to do
it because you lose a lot of this impetus when you go starting somebody
else out fresh with the problem, you see, and then they get to arguing about
all of that .things that wee have argued about here the many hours, you
see, and then it takes them 30 or 60 days for them to get to going, and
then they get all wound up in somebody's priority somewhere, you see, and
that is a ma3or problem, this question of getting mixe8 up is people's
priorities, their own priorities, national priorities, so I am content as far
as I am concorned:to go ahead and do it, and I think unless we are sure
we are going to be turniag it over to saanebody who could do it better, not
squally well, but better, that we ought to be doing it.
MR. SHELDON: I think it is fundamentally our fob, and I think we
should do it, and I think we shoul8 press forward vigorously and tackle the
problem.
t'IENERA.L LEWIS: Well, having been over there in the theater and having
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been working on this exact same problem as my Aa. 1 Sob from the day I walked
into General Clay's office to be introduced to him as new A-2 of U3AF'E, it is
the first thing he said to me, and I have been working on it ever since. I
think I have a good enough ides as to how we could approach it with Europe,
and it would be generally the same with FEAF, Alaskan Command, and anybody
else we felt important enough to get in here, bow we coul8 approach it,
an8 try and find ways and means of bettering .And as far as I am
concerned, as I said before, the stimulation aloes of our doing it is
going to be worth it even if we don't set up very much if any machinery.
Even if we can't find exactly the mesh of gears to fit, at least the
stimulation is going to be good. They will understand our problem. We are
going to understand them a lot better.
(There being no further busiaess to come before the Committee,
the meeting ad~aurned at 12:36 P.M.)
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