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August 26, 1974
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REMOTE VIEWING OF NATURAL TARGETS Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff Stanford Research Institute Electronics and Bioengineering Laboratory To be presented at the Conference on Quantum Physics and Parapsychology Geneva, Switzerland, August 26-27, 1974 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 REMOTE VIEWING OF NATURAL TARGETS This paper presents a series of experiments in which a subject is asked to describe a remote site chosen by experimenters and unknown to the subject. This work was undertaken to test the idea that natural geographic places or man-made sites that have existed for a long time are more potent targets for paranormal perception experiments than are artificial targets prepared in the laboratory. This is based in part on the suggestions of two of our subjects (Messrs. Pat Price and Ingo Swann) who consider the use of artificial targets to be a "trivialization of the ability," as compared with natural preexisting targets. In order to build a physical theory for the explanation of psychical phenomena, it is necessary to have a clear understanding of what constitutes the phenomena which are to be explained. Tn this paper we endeavor to present a series of coherent and repeatable experiments which represent a sufficiently stable data base against which to test various theories for psychical functioning. In these experiments we have three principal findings. First, we have definitely established that it is possible to obtain significant amounts of descriptive information about remote locations. Second, the physical distance separating, the subject from the scene to be perceived does not greatly effect the accuracy of perception. In our experiments the distance was varied from two miles to two thousand miles. Finally, Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 the use of electromagnetic shielding does not in any apparent way degrade the quality or accuracy of the descriptions obtained. These facts taken together cast great doubt on theories for psychic perception based on a conventional use of electromagnetic radiation. Although it is possible for extremely low frequencies to penetrate our shielded room, we question whether signals of such low frequency have the necessary information carrying capacity to account for the experiments described in this paper. In our experience, a subject is more likely to describe accurately a remote site chosen at random from hundreds of nearby locations than he is to select correctly an integer from zero to nine chosen by a similar random process. In a later section we describe the protocol used to quantify the correspondence between the subject's description and the observables present at the target location. We consider that this differ- ence in task difficulty lies in the fact that a subject can make a perfect mental picture of each numeral from one to ten from his own imagination, whereas he is more likely to try to make his mind a blank when attempting to perceive pictorial information from remote locations about which he has no mentally stored data. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 In experiments carried out in our program to investigate the abilities of a New York artist, Mr. Ingo Swann, he expressed the opinion that the insights gained during experiments at SRI had strengthened his ability (researched before he joined the SRI program) to view remote locations. To test Mr. Swann's assertion, a pilot study was set up in which a series of targets from around the globe were supplied to the experimenters by SRI personnel on a double-blind basis. In our estimation, Mr. Swann's ability to describe correctly details of buildings, roads, bridges, and the like indicated that he could perceive remote locations, sometimes in great detail, given only their geographic latitude and longitude. Thus, we considered the descriptions were sufficiently accurate to warrant our setting up a research program in remote viewing. We present here the results of a remote viewing experiment, carried out with a second subject in the remote viewing program (Mr. Pat Price). This experiment consisted of a series of double-blind, demonstration-of- ability tests involving local targets in the San Francisco Bay area which could be documented by several independent judges. In each of nine experiments in which Mr. Price served as remote- viewing subject and SRI experimenters as a target demarcation team, a remote location was chosen in a double-blind protocol. Mr. Price, who remained at SRI, was asked to describe this remote location, as well as whatever activities might be going on there. K. Osis, ASPR Newsletter, No. 14, Summer 1972. 3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Data from the nine experiments are presented in the following para- graphs. Final judging indicated that several descriptions yielded sig- nificantly correct data pertaining to and descriptive of the target loca- tion. In the nine double-blind remote-viewing experiments, the following procedures were used. A set of twelve target locations clearly differen- tiated from each other and within thirty minutes driving time from SRI, had been chosen from a target-rich environment (more than 100 targets of the type used in the experimental series) prior to the experimental series by an individual in SRI management, the director of the Information Science and Engineering Division, not otherwise associated with the experiment. Both the experimenters and the subject were kept blind as to the contents of the target pool, which were used without replacement. To begin the experiment, an experimenter was closeted with Mr. Price at SRI to wait 30 minutes to begin the narrative description of the remote location. The SRI locations from which the subject viewed the remote locations consisted of an outdoor park (Experiments 1,2) a double-walled copper-screen Faraday cage (Experiments 3,4, 6-9), and an office (Experi- ment 5). A second experimenter would then obtain.a target location from the Division Director from a set of traveling orders previously prepared and randomized by the Director and kept under his control. The target * The Faraday cage provides 120 dB attenuation for plane wave radio frequency radiation over a range of 15 KHz to 1 GHz. For magnetic fields the attenuation is 68 dB at 15 KHz and decreases to 3 dB at 60 Hz. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 demarcation team, consisting of two to four SRI experimenters then pro- ceeded directly to the target by automobile without communicating with the subject or experimenter remaining behind. Since the experimenter remaining with the subject at SRI was in ignorance both as to the particular target and also as to the target pool, he was free to question Price to clarify his descriptions. The demarcation team then remained at the target site for an agreed-upon thirty-minute period following the thirty minutes allotted for travel. During the observation period, the remote-viewing subject would describe his impressions of the target site into a tape recorder. A comparison was then made when the demarcation team returned. To represent best the detail and style of these narratives, we have repro- duced in an Appendix the entire unedited text of one of the better narra- tives (Exp. 7) which contains very few incorrect statements. In general, Mr. Price's ability to describe correctly buildings, docks, roads, gardens, etc., including structural materials, color, ambience, and activity, sometimes' in great detail, indicated the functioning of a remote perceptual ability. However, the descriptions contained inaccuracies as well as correct statements. To obtain a numerical evaluation of the accuracy. of the remote viewing experiment, the experimental results were subjected to independent judging on a blind basis by five SRI scientists who were not otherwise associated with the research. The judges were asked to match the nine locations, which they independently visited, against the typed manuscripts of the tape-recorded narratives of the remote viewer. The transcripts were unlabeled and presented in random order. The judges were asked to find a narrative which they would consider the best match for each of the laces e i ited. v ar i ou b as i ned to more than Approved' o F elease 2~+ ~~O ~b : CI - DP96~ 0787E 000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 one target. location. A correct match requires that the transcript of a given date be associated with the target of that date. The table shows the distribution of the judges' choices. For purposes of display we present the table such that the main diagonal corresponds to the correct choices. The number of correct matches by Judges A through g is 7, 6, 5, 3, and 3,' respectively. The expected number of correct matches from the five judges was five; in the experiment twenty-four such matches were obtained . Among all possible analyses, none is more conservative than a permutation analysis of the plurality vote of the judges' selections assuming assignment without replacement, an approach independent of the number of judges. By plurality vote, six of the nine descriptions and locations were correctly matched. Under the null hypothesis (no remote viewing and a random selection of, descriptions without replacement), this outcome has an a : rp iori probability of p = 5.6 x 10-4 . since, among all possible permutations of the integers one through nine, the probability of six or more being in their natural position in the list has that value. Therefore, although Price's descriptions contain inaccuracies, the descriptions are sufficiently accurate to permit the judges to differentiate among the various targets to the degree indicated. 'The a priori probability of such an occurrence by chance, conservatively assuming assignment without replacement on the part of the judges, is p = 8.10-10. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 A U O U .ti a) a) oa rn .ri a) ~ d+ r1 N U c W cd U cd a) Fa O O C) r1 U) +) O O ?rl a .r? a) k a) O 07 A W P W 04 00 A C~ U l~ A m UI a1 bb ~ CO W ~ U .ti .4) to A WA eC ?ri N G l rM W U U Cd r-I U M W W A W N to U U ~ H N V L CO t- 00 61 Cd Cd U] 10 +-) a w : r-4 q N in y, r-I U 'Q 0 r4 m a) 10 44 V b U A 0 10 10 rI a U Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Remote Viewing with "Ordinary" Subjects Based on the results of the Price experiments we decided to extend our investigations to include the two outstanding (ordinary) subjects who had been uncovered in a broad-based screening experiment including 147 volunteer subjects. The subjects for this experiment were an SRI scientist, Mr. D.E., and a professional photographer, Ms. H.H. Target Selection The protocol for the experiments was as follows: One experimenter would remain at SRI with the subject while the other experimenter went to the remote target location. The target was selected by the traveling experimenter after he left SRI and while the subject was monitored by the other experimenter. The traveling experimenter, who had a list of six San Francisco Bay Area locations that could be reached in no`more than 30 minutes driving, then cast a die to determine which place would actually be visited. After a half hour's wait, the subject remaining at SRI began to relate his impressions about the place where the other experimenter was located; these narrations were recorded on magnetic tape. The experi- menter remaining behind with the subject had no information about the target location. Four such experiments were performed with these two subjects, two with each. Locations were generated from a list that included such possible targets as a drive-in theatre, Hoover Tower on the Stanford Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 University campus, a toll plaza on the east side of the'Dumbarton bridge across the San Francisco Bay, Palo Alto Methodist Church, Artificial Intelligence building in foothills west of SRI, Baylands nature preserve, Allied Arts crafts plaza, the Alpine Inn beer garden in the foothills, Rinconada Park swimming pools, and Redwood City Marina, among others. The four target locations used in this series of experiments were a miniature golf course in Redwood City, the Bay Area Rapid Transit station in Fremont (across the Bay), a shielded room at SRI, and (as a special long-distance task) a vacation resort in Costa Rica. For this last target, the subject was asked to supply a drawing and written description. In the preexperiment orientation, the subjects were told that since they had demonstrated paranormal perceptual ability in previous tasks, we were confident that they could do this additional task since we had already observed two other subjects performing such tasks successfully. Summary of Experiments The following gives a summary of the four experiments done with the two "ordinary" subjects from the screening study. In the first experiment, Ms. H. H. described a ", wooden building with a pointed roof." The building was further described as being made with "...overlapping boards and has a white trim." Further- more, she said, the "...building is empty, as though nothing is going on inside. And the whole place seems artificial like a movie set." The Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 caricature of a schoolhouse on a miniature golf course--both empty and artificial (Figure 1). The shape, color, and construction were all accurate. In a second experiment, the experimenter (Phyllis Cole) was led by a throw of the die to a shielded room (Figure 2) on the second floor of SRI's Engineering building. D.E.'s description had her "...sitting rather quietly alone on the corner of a rather large room. Not so much an office, but more like a classroom, a larger room. And as she was sitting there in the room she was writing, she was looking at perhaps something on the wall and writing something..." (In fact, at about this time the experi- menter was observing graffiti on the wall, and mentally composing her own for the collection.) A detailed description fits well with the row of a half-dozen large heavy black metal machines on a work bench to the right of the experimenter that she touched at approximately this time during the experiment: "I have some impressions that I can't understand-- it's like some heavy black things that she could either be sitting on or that she's touching. Sort of an amorphous shape that I can't pick up, but it feels heavy and black and of a distinguishable shape, but its exact form is not angular--doesn't seem angular, and I can't interpret a shape from it." This description was substantially correct and would have fit no other target used in any experiments up to that time. The description was unique in the set of descriptions with which it was compared. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 FIGURE 1 "SCHOOLHOUSE" ON MINIATURE GOLF COURSE USED AS REMOTE VIEWING TARGET FIGURE 2 SHIELDED ROOM IN SRI'S ENGINEERING BUILDING USED AS REMOTE VIEWING TARGET Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 In a third trial, the experimenters (Russell Targ and Phyllis Cole) went to the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) station across the bay from SRI, again chosen at random from a prepared list. D.E.'s description closely matched the target: "...a simple, heavy, solid building with a unique function" in ",..relatively natural surroundings" [all correct-- see Figures 3(a) and 3(b)]. In his further description, D. E. said (correctly) "They are standing at a metal railing looking out over a scene. They are up high enough that they can see some buildings down below" [Figure 3(c)]. He sensed some ambiguity of whether the experi- menters were inside a building or not. "I have the sense they're outside, though, but they're near a building. There's a larger building-like structure. Feels like it has sort of one function. One primary function. And although they're outside, they're relating to the building and its function." In fact the experimenters were on the open station platform waiting for a train. About 11:22 he said, "I have the impression that Russell is feeling a smooth metal surface. Sort of large plates, large metal plates. Somewhat rectangular." The timing and description are highly accurate. Figure 3(d) illustrates Mr. Targ looking at the large metal BART route map, just before the train's arrival. At exactly 11:25 D.E. said "everything changed" and "I don't see them anymore." That is the precise time the target pair boarded the BART train and left the station. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 In addition to the remote viewing of local targets, one subject (H. H.) participated in a long-distance experiment. In this experiment one of the experimenters (Dr. Puthoff) spent a week traveling through Central America on a combination business/pleasure trip. That is all that was known to the subject about the traveler's itinerary. The experiment called for Dr. Puthoff to keep a detailed record of his location and activities, including photographs, each day at 1330 PDT. Five daily responses were obtained from the subject. Two were In excel- lent agreement, two had elements in common but were not clear corre- spondences, and one was clearly a miss. In the first of the two matches, Dr. Puthoff was driving in rugged terrain at the base of a volcano (Figure 4) and the subject's response was "larger bare table mountain, jungle below, dark cool moist atmosphere," a match both with regard to topography and ambience. In the second match the subject submitted that all she got was a "picture of Dr. Puthoff sitting in a beach chair by a pool," which was entirely correct. During the course of the Central America experiment, on one occasion when the -test subject was unavailable, one of the authors (RT) volunteered a drawing of an image he obtained at the beginning of one of the daily experiments. (The target for that day was an airport, an unexpected target associated with a side excursion at midpoint of the week's activity.) The match was good, as shown in Figures 5 and 6. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 /7J FIGURE 6 SKETCH PRODUCED BY SUBJECT FROM SAN ANDRES, COLOMBIA, AIRPORT USED AS REMOTE VIEWING TARGET Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Conclusion We have presented evidence for the existence of a biological infor- mation channel whose characteristics appear to fall outside the range of known perceptual modalities. The precise nature of the channel or channels is as yet undefined, but may involve either direct perception of hidden information content, perception of mental images of persons knowledgeable of target information, precognition, or some combination of these or other information channels. We have worked with three individuals whose remote perceptual abilities were sufficiently developed that they were able to describe geographical material blocked from ordinary perception. From these experiments we conclude that o A channel exists whereby information about a remote location can be obtained by means of an as yet unidentified perceptual modality. o As with all biological systems, the information channel appears to be imperfect, containing noise along with the signal. o While a quantitative signal-to-noise ratio in the information- theoretical sense cannot as yet be determined, the results of our experiments indicate that the functioning is at the level of useful information transfer. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 It may be that remote perceptual ability is widely distributed in the general population, but because the perception is generally below an individual's level of awareness, it is repressed or not noticed. For example, two of our subjects (H.H. and P.P.) had not considered themselves to have unusual perceptual ability before their participation in these experiments. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Transcript of Experiment 7 with Pat Price Following is the unedited transcript of remote viewing Experiment 7, where the target was an Arts and Crafts Garden Plaza. This is a large plaza resembling a California mission. There are craft shops around the perimeter of the plaza. In the plaza area are many gardens, flowers, ceramic pots, fountains, and paths. Overhead are vines on arbors of redwood. Price's description is accurate in almost every detail and he omitted little of importance. (See Figure 7.) 1:40 THIS IS A REMOTE VIEWING EXPERIMENT WITH PAT PRICE, DEAN BROWN, AND RUSSELL TARG IN THE SHIELDED ROOM IN BUILDING 30. THE TRAVELLERS TO REMOTE LOCATION ARE BART COX, HAL PUTHOFF, JUDY SCHMICKLEY AND PHYLLIS COLE. WE EXPECT THE TRAVELLERS TO BE AT THEIR PLACE IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES. OK. Why don't I start scanning by quadrant using this as a center point. 12-3, 6-9 ...... I'll go from 12-3 first. Seems to me right now that I'm picking them up in the 12-3 quadrant, but I'll go on in the rest and look. I haven't actually identified them, I just feel that they're there. Nope, I don't get them there. Now I'll go from 6-9. While I was looking at 6-9, it looks to me like I'm looking at an iris, a flower of some kind. I'll come back and identify that later. Just wanted to get it down as having a flash of an iris flower-purplish. I'll continue to scan that quadrant.. Nope, don't get them there. I'll go from 9-12. Don't get them there. I'll go back 12-3. Yeah, I get them in that quadrant. Now I'll see if I can locate them physically and identify the area. I'm looking at something that looks like an arbor, trellis-work arbor. Seems to be cool, shaded. Doesn't seem to me that they're out in the direct sunlight. Be more like there's lots of trees, in an arbor area. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787ROO0500410001-3 They're just.... looks like it's a dirt path, quite wide, I'd say maybe 12 feet. I can see some grass. Looks like possibly a fountain of some kind. Yeah, I can see Bart in his red shirt and what looks like kind of a gray paisley tie - I didn't really look at that when he was down there. The red shirt, I did. Looks like he has on a gray paisley tie. Looks like there's some red brick laid into a walkway. They don't seem to be on it, they just seem to pass over that. I get - it seems like a little ways away from them there are quite a few people but right where they're walking it doesn't appear to be many right in there. This is an arbor area. Back of that arbor, back here I'd say 50 feet from that arbor to here, seems to be a lot of people in here. They were walking along here on what looks like about a 12 foot dirt path. No, I want to say park, but it doesn't exactly feel like a park. If you took a - the feeling I'm getting - it's not the specific place - but like the Town and Country Market. That type of an atmosphere, with quite a section of it into a little outdoor park, but basically I'm getting a very strong feeling of flowers. TELL ME ABOUT THE TOWN AND COUNTRY ASPECT. IN WHAT WAY DOES IT REMIND YOU OF TOWN AND COUNTRY. The buildings, not right where they're at, but very close to them have that same kind of architecture and look. The parking lot looks similar, grand, sweeping, not cluttered, it's more expansive area. You take a place like Sears Mall - it seems cluttered. This seems more leisurely paced. People are moving about slower - there's not the hustle and bustle - more or less meandering. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787ROO0500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Yeah, the back of them it seems to be - where they are seems to be a very large arbor like vines growing over it and things, and there possi- bly - I haven't looked in there yet to see if there's any displays like pottery and things - I get the feeling that there is right close to it. Yeah, it seems like fairly high shade trees - kinda bordering. The center part doesn't seem to have it - this part in here. The trees seem to be way up in here along like this over here. This seems to be shaded in here, but it's sunny out here. I just saw something that looked like a windmill - not a farm type wind- mill - a Dutch-type windmill. It's smaller - it's not a huge thing, but I'm getting a definite feeling that it's like a windmill. The area in there feels damp - not wet - they're not walking in water, but it's very moist. The temperature in's secluded. Feels very comfortable. A little on the shady side. Outside of this little park-like affair that they seem to be in, there's a street. One side of it seems to be a kind of a residential... the other seems to be a little bit more heavily travelled. Let me pickup a little bit more. I can see one very large oak tree - exceptionally large. Right now Bart is trying to point something out that is basically the significance of the whole place. It's like that key thing, well, if you'd have mentioned a salt pile I'd have blown my lid. Well, this has a significance that's just about comparable to that. I'm screening it out. Thing that just flashed in was kind of like a stadium structure - like looking down into a stadium. Just when I did that I - I'll-have to reorient to make sure I'm looking in the same area now. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Seems like they're - I still get them in the same quadrant I had them in originally. Seems like some decorative brick walls. Yeah, I got them out about this far - it's not far away - I'd say in this direction over here about - feels like a mile to a mile and a half. They don't feel as far away, and I'm not looking at the time continuum. They actually don't feel as far away. I'd say that it is about - not half the distance they were to the marina, and it seems to be on a line just about in that direction but just a hair more - rather than a direct line from here to the marina - they seem to be just slightly more to the left of that line. I was looking back to where he had the car parked and it seems like it's on asphalt, then a curb in front, and then it's like a dirt walkway and then a sidewalk. But I can see eucalyptus buds on the ground and some branches of eucalyptus there. One of the most dominant things to me in the way of unusualness is the size of the oak tree that I'm looking at. Looks like an arboretum, or I get the definite feeling of flowers. Almost get the feeling like it's commercial flowers. In fact, the most predominant feeling that I'm getting right now is flowers. Don't know why iris particularly. There's something about the windmill that I was going to look at. Wasn't that what you were....? Be like one you'd almost see in a miniature golfcourse...the windmill. Has all the construction and detail but not as large - it's fairly small. Seems to be made out of dark redwood and it's kind of aged. I'm going to try to look more directly to them. Let's see, there's Bart and Hal, and behind Bart is Judy and behind Hal is Phyllis, kinda stag- gered there. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 I was trying to get the feeling of what type of an area it was. Let me elevate a bit. I'm looking at much too small an area. There's some greater significance there that I feel I'm definitely not looking at - let's Jack up a bit-maybe 500 feet. I see Judy's red hair and her brown eyes and her flashing teeth - she has beautiful teeth. Hadn't really looked at them before. Phyllis and her are talking about something and Hal and Bart are talking about something and he's pointing at something and it seems to me that he's pointing over to what I'd call a windmill or something that looks like a windmill. The water I see looks more like a pool or a pond than it does - you know, it's not big like a lake - not very large, but it looks like a definite pool. Right where they're at I don't hear too much traffic noise - it seems to be fairly quiet. Feels a little early, but it kinda seems like they're retracing their steps heading back toward the car, but they're still moving quite leisurely. IF YOU LOOK DOWN ON THE PLACE FROM ABOVE, CAN YOU GET ANY FEELING FOR THE - IS THERE ANY OVERALL LAYOUT OR PLAN? When I went up I could see trees and stuff, and I kind of got the feeling of like in a corner of a golf course, you know - where there would be a lot of trees overhanging the green and some things in there - that seemed to be out of context, but when I elevated, that's what I got. It kind of looked like an overlap to me, so I didn't talk about it, but I will. When I elevated it kind of felt like it was right over the corner of a golf course of some kind, with a street running down one side, and they are fairly close to that. In fact, the bricked area that I looked at or like a patio thing kinda looks like a walkway. Seems like there's small building - small meaning not tall - looks like a single story building. Looks like it has a flat roof - slightly pitched. Looks like 4 x 4 poles supporting it - has a Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 canopy out over it. They're painted white, place looks like very possible light yellow or cream color. They're walking not too far from that. Still seems to me that they're on a dirt pathway. In the area that they're in now I get flowers again - where before they kinda fell out of the flowers. Looks like maybe 80-100 yards from where they are - looks like 2 guys on a motor scooter. They can see them. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE INTEREST TO THIS PLACE? WHAT'S SPECIAL ABOUT THIS PLACE? It seems to be a kind of a recreational, relaxed... not energetic - looks more relaxed. I'd say it's kind of combination recreational and relaxation area that I'm getting out of it. Two aspects - one is aesthetics and the other is a kind of a mild recre- ational area. There seem to be some unique features - I don't have it totally into context as yet. There's a number of things that I've rejected - looked at and rejected saying. First, I got the impression that it was kind of like a miniature golf course - I rejected that. Merely from saying it.- I didn't reject the principle - I just rejected saying it. Then I kind of got the idea of a standard golf course - I also rejected that on the same principle, so I'm just trying to describe the terrain. Seems expansive - doesn't seem cluttered. Just got a flash of something that reminded me of the gyroscope - gimbals on the gyroscope. Drinking fountain - looks like it's made out of kinda like field stone built up into a fountain... bowl. I'm going to elevate again and go through a search quadrant again. A -7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 I still get them in that general location, so that seems to set all right. Distance - maybe a mile, mile and a half. Doesn't seem much farther- seems fairly close. The area has an awful lot of grass, lot of trees - looks like dirt walk- ways, well trimmed. I can see the arbor, and the arbor could be a place to sit and be out of the direct sun. That outlooks over quite a grassy area - there are quite a few trees. I see basically an oak. Right after they got out of the car I could see some eucalyptus buds and branches on the ground, and it seemed like the trees were there. Looked like they got out of the car, stepped upon a curb, dirt parkway, a sidewalk, and then they went into this area. I get the feeling this windmill type thing - that all seems fairly real. The feeling is still that it's relaxing and has some recreational aspects - I just haven't put it totally together as to giving it a name. Right now I get a very strong impression of flowers again. It seems like right now they're back to right where I originally spotted them only they're going in the opposite direction - like they're moving toward the direction they originally went. While they were there they walked on several pathways - walked out quite a ways, then swung over and come over and worked around and looked at... One peculiar thing I might note - so far I haven't sensed, seen nor heard an airplane. Cars seem quite distant - outside of that little motor scooter affair with the two guys on it. That's about the only vehicular traffic I've seen - except out in the parking lot. It seems like to me that they've got most of their attention off what they were looking at and they've got their attention more on the car now. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3 I want to look and find out what the significant thing was that Bart was talking about. There's something quite unusual there and I ... Damned if I can pick it up. WAS HAL DOING ANYTHING BESIDES WALKING ALONG - WAS THERE ANY ACTIVITY FOR HAL TO DO? Most of the time I was looking at Hal,he was kind of listening to Bart and Bart was pointing out a number of things. Part of the time Bart was walking with Hal; part of the time he was back by Judy. When I first saw them, it was Bart in the front on the left side, Hal was on his right, Judy was slightly behind - almost between Bart and Hal but behind, and Phyllis to her right. They wandered around but the first time I picked up - they were that way. When they were coming back, they just about reversed. Bart would be in front. When they were coming back, it looked like Bart was in front with Phyllis, and Judy was walking more behind Bart and Hal on her right when they were coming back out of there. They're actually at the car. 2:30 SHALL WE GO DOWNSTAIRS AND SEE HOW THEY'RE DOING? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000500410001-3