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November 4, 2016
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June 12, 1998
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PDF icon CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8.pdf1.46 MB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 00788R000100030001-8 ORCON/NOFORN INSCOM GRILL FLAME PROJECT SESSION REPORT Approved For Release 2000/08 CLASSIFIED BY: Director,DIA REVIEW ON: 30 Sep 99 EXTENDED BY: Director, DIA REASON: 2-301-C (3) (6) 6_00788R0001GUILL FLAME SG1A SG1A Approved For Release 2000/08/07sEg00788R000100030001-8 SUMMARY ANALYSIS REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSIONS C 54 AND C 55 1. (S) This r port provides documentation of two of four remote viewing sessions (see also C47 and C53) conducted in compliance with a request from OACSI, DA. This office was requested to provide information concernin? what was describ d 2. (S) The remote viewer was highly motivated during these sessions. He was able to achieve a better than normal relaxed b state and his impression of the target area were unusually clear to him. On the fiJ st session, the remote viewer was told that information had been requested about a building in the vicinit of a ?eo?ra?hic coordina ?? ? I. 3. (S) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document, Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated. 4. (S) Following are transcripts of the viewer's impressions during the remote viewing sessions. At TAB A are drawings made by the viewer reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB C is available target data. At TAB B are initial target correlation data sheets. a Approved For Release 2000/0 ? tr96-00788R000100030001-8 , . , Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 5CSS Ai TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : csEc RE/88R000100030001-8 SG1A TRANSCRIPT REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION C 54 #66: This will be a remote viewing session (edited for security). PAUSE Let's focus now on the target for this afternoon. Interested in finding out about a building located at PAUSE Relax and concentrate. Concentrate. PAUSE #1: I see a . . low silhouette building. And its in the shape of an "L". PAUSE And there . . there appears . . I take that back. There's . . there's . . Its not right. There's . . Its a low, low silhouette building and its . . . kind of got a drab . . drab appearance. Its not square, its . . rectangular. PAUSE Appears to be about . . . 25% longer than it is wide. PAUSE There's . . what . . appears to be a tall . . tall thing next to it. With . . I . . I want to say, guide wires, but there's no guide wires there. Its very tall like maybe a . . a smoke- stack. Looks like a smokestack. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-R REI000100030001-8 tet g Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA 8R000100030001-8 #66: What is your . . #1: #66: (Not audible) What is your position, your observation? What is . . . #1: Ohhh. . #66: . . is your position of observation? #1: Sort of South, Southwest of the building. Looking at it diagonally across the top. #66: Tell me more about the building. #1: Its. . PAUSE Its got a . . pitched roof. And its . . I don't see any windows. Its got two large metal doors. They appear to be metal doors. And . . . I get the feeling of a lot of wood for some reason. PAUSE There's a . . There's like a ledge piece it looks like . . that goes sort of down one side. I . . I want to say its a ramp, but its not a ramp. Its . . appears to be some kind of a overhang type ledge that kind of runs around the one side. Its . . That's really all I can say about it. PAUSE There's . . . Wait a minute! There's something . . . something unique about it. I can't . . . I'm seeing . . a triangle, . . not a triangle, its shaped like a triangle. Like three inter- secting lines. . that are . . like connecting three upright supports together. And they're either right in the corner of the building or they're on top of the building. PAUSE Looks a lot like a very, very large antenna. Some kind of support poles. PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-Rdz'96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA R000100030001-8 There's . . PAUSE Jesus Christ! #66, it sounds like Grand Central Station out there. (NOTE: Referring to noise outside viewing room.) #66: Well. . . we thought we'd arrange a special for you this afternoon. #1: Okay, for that. Would you like to know what goes on inside this building? #66: Ah. . . Yeah, I would. Let's ask a few more questions before we move inside the building here. Tell me what the odor of the area is. What's the area smell like? PAUSE #1: It smells like a gas plant. Natural gas. But not a fuel, oil or a . . Its got a strange stink to it though. PAUSE More like . . Its kind of like an acrid scent to it like sulphur would have. But I smell a lot of natural gas mixed in with that. For some reason. Like there's a . . . Like there's a smelting or a melting or something. Its very . . . More of an acrid smell. #66: All right. Let's move on then and what's the temperature like? #1: Outside or inside? #66: Work on the outside. #1: The outside. PAUSE Its cool outside. #66: Okay. #1: Very cool. But I . . I got the feeling that you wouldn't have too much trouble staying warm here. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDF16-00788R000100030001-8 cir.RiT Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl PAUSE 8R000100030001-8 . I . . For some reason there appears to be like an open end to this building and there's . . . there's . . There are like large, large, I want to say tank like objects. Big, you know, roll up tank like objects. But . . . #66: All right, now tell me where these objects are located in relation to the building. #1: They're . . well there are some that are . . . They're. . . like the end of the building's kind of open like and there's like a . . there's like some that are under the edge of that, that open end of the building. I don't know how to explain that . . . I feel like they're sort of inside or outside of the building at the same time. Sort of like there should be an end to the building but there isn't. And they are kind of under this big overhang of the roof. #66: All right, describe your position of observation please. #1: Looking directly at the back. #66: All right I want you to stand on the ground at the back please. #1: Okay. PAUSE Stand on the ground? Okay, I'm in like a parking area. Appears like . . courtyard area. That's not right, its a . . There's things like laid out fairly orderly there. #66: Can you see these objects that you had before? #1: Yes. They're like all around me. #66: All right. #1: I . . I . get the impression of neat rows. PAUSE I also get the impression of heat. PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-0078 000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 A Tuu 88R000100030001-8 Thick metal and heat. #66: All right. PAUSE Just relax and concentrate for a minute. #1: And I get the feeling that I can't see over them but I can really. To see orderly rows I have to look through these objects. #66: All right. What . #1: (Not audible) #66: What direction are you facing? #1: The . . #66: Are you facing into the building? Are you facing away from the building? #1: I'm facing into the building #66. #66: All right. #1: I'm looking under that overhanging section of roof. There's two big black . . . what appears to be black openings. One on each side. #66: All right. #1: And I see . . what appears to be . . some kind ,,-- of cranes on sliding type overhang pieces. #66: All right. #1: One on each side. #66: Fine. #1: These are like super images. They're like carry things. Very heavy. #66: All right. ? #1: Objects. #66: Now . . um . . Where are they in relation to the building? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 5 000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA R000100030001-8 #1: They're fastened to it. They. . . They're outside and somehow they're fastened to them. Fastened to it. PAUSE Oh wait! They're . . There's . . . There's . There's a cross piece at the top of these two two crane like objects. And . . . it appears that that part of the crane is moveable. I think I'm getting the feeling they're attached to the building because I'm looking . . looking . . . through them for some reason. I don't understand how I can do that. #66: Okay. Um . . These things that . . a . . are partly in the building and partly out of the building? #1: Yeah. #66: What do the cranes have to do with them? PAUSE #1: They're . . They work on them with these. There . . . there seems to be . . . There's some kind - of railroad or some kind of big slide type rail with brackets fastened to it. . . that these things slide on, these big things. #66: Yeah, um hm. #1: And . . and . . . I'm . . I'm seeing . . . some kind of a . . Jesus! This is really mind blowing. I'm seeing fins, but they're not . . . they're not rocket fins or plane fins or anything there. #66: Yes, that's very good. Go on. #1: They're . . They look like shark fins. #66: All right. #1: Very much like shark fins. #66: All right. Fine. #1: And they're . . they're dark dull gray rolor ?L/ and they're juttinhrough these doors like. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-0 30001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: 000100030001-8 #66: All right. Fine. I want you to stand. . . listen very carefully. Stand in the opening where these things jut out and look away from the build- ing, directly away from the building. #1: Okay. Um hm. I see a . . . First, I see a lot of fencing. Everywhere. And I see an open area that's got what looks like different . . different constructed pieces of metal laying in neat stacks . . . I don't . . a lot of curved pieces of metal. And then more fencing. And there's a lot of . . There's a lot of . . spot lights, flood lights. And a very . . . And its all covering of . . a very large concrete structure. Extremely large. It . #66: Now . . #1: There's water, there's a lot of water there. #66: Fine. Tell me about this large concrete structure. PAUSE #1: Its floating on the water. At that weight. PAUSE God damn it! PAUSE Its . . . I want to say its floating on the water but its not. Its got water under it and around it, part of it. I think. PAUSE There's . . . intense lighting in this building. #66: Which building? #1: And all around it. The big concrete structure. #66: This concrete structure is a building? PAUSE #1: It appears to be hollowed somewhat inside. It . . PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl 88R000100030001-8 I have to say its some kind of a building, but like its very unusual. Very, very large in concrete. Very hardened. #66: And this is different than the building that you told me about before? #1: Yes. PAUSE Its like if you were to . . bury a shoe box in . . five feet of steel reinforced concrete, . . and then worked inside the shoe box. Its like a very . . very . . heavily constructed . . . some. . . its a structure, but it . . its got something wrong. There's people working in it. #66: What's your position of observation please? #1: Looking through it. #66: All right, move inside of it. . so you are not forced to look through it. Move inside the building, the big concrete structure, move inside. 7 #1: There's water in there. (Not audible). Its V not full of water, there's just water in there. I . . . Lot of metal railing. And . . what appears to be . . some . . some kind of tubular thing. Some kind of a . . Some kind of an immense rack type object. Say its brilliantly lit inside. I . . . I get the feeling of intense light. And noise. Like some kind of a . . a . some kind of a work bay or something. There's . . I keep seeing this . . this oblong bay of water for some reason. And, there appears to be a . . a. . form of a . . huge bracket type apparatus. Its got circular gripping arms on it for some reason. And there's. . . a lot of intense noise and lighting. A lot of lighting. Lights everywhere. Outside and inside it appears. There's . . . I keep wanting to say there's a . . . there's a . . dark, a very dark object there but I can't . . I can;t tell what it is. Its like a shadow type . . . thing. But its very large. #66: In what terms do you mean very large? #1: Tall, but longer than tall. But I . . I . . can see the . . the . . see the tall part. And it _rue reason, I Approved For Release 2000/d8/0.: olAIRE)146-b0/88R01)0100.03E86.1 8 RrrtRrr Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 100030001-8 see a . . . a . . seeing a red flag with a red star on a black background like there's night time behind it. And I think this is on this dark object but I can't . . tell what it is. Its absolutely smooth. #66: All right. What's the temperature ? ? . inside this building? #1: Inside, very warm. PAUSE Very warm. There's . . #66: Describe the odor. #1: The odor is . . very, very strong. Very strong. Acrid smell. Almost like they're burning metal smell. #66: All right. PAUSE #1: Same smell you would get if you were. . next to a . . a very intense. . arc weld. #66: All right. #1: Arc welding. Yeah, I sense there's that, probably that activity there. #66: Okay. PAUSE I want you to come back outside the area now; back outside the area now. #1: Okay. I see a very large body of water there. It has two sections of land that curve out and then back in from both directions. #66: All right. #1: Like a protected bay or something. #66: Very good. #1: Protected bay. #66: Very good. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96- 030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA S ECALLR000100030001-8 PAUSE #66: This is all the questions that I have about the target. I would like you ? ? #1: This . . . This is a . . #66: I would like to provide you the opportunity to say anything now thatyou would like to say about the target. #1: The . . I'm getting a very, ;very strong impression,A/ es _p_42.2.1. In the main buildiu the large tall building thaTT; got the . . tE5-open end. You know, I . . I . . There's some kind of ship. Some kind of . vessel. I get the imrpession. #66: All right, fine. #1: Large, very large. PAUSE And. . . There's something else. Let me concentrate on it a minute. #66: This is fine. This is your opportunity to add anything you'd like to add. I will wait for your reply. PAUSE #1: I'm getting this strongest feeling that these things are not constructed here; that there's 1./v some kind of modification going on. . . and I see some kind of . . some kind of complex. . some kind of . . complex. . that thing I saw earlier with the curved gripping arms. There's some kind of complex thing like that that's on the . . . laid out on the backs of these vessels or these ships. And there. . . that's the modifi- cation has something to do with that. These bracket type, large bracket type things .? . are being modified. Something's being done to those. And . . . And . . . God, I can't put my finger on it. PAUSE Well, that's all I got. #66: All right. Fine. I want you to sit up now and draw those impressions that you had and feel free to draw those things that you feel you want to Approved ForReleaseiN1108/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 10 stmET Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : C 88R000100030001-8 PAUSE #1: Just a minute. #66: All right. PAUSE How do you feel about this session? #1: Good. It was like all of a sudden everything just came together. Very, very strong impressions. Particularly at the back of that large building with the openings. PAUSE I wish I could tell what that God damn fin was to because I think that's very significant. PAUSE Ohhhhh. #66: All right? #1: Yep. #66: I'm going to open the blinds here and give you - a little bit of light to draw. PAUSE #1: There's. . . Page 1, we'll make this . . kind of long, tall wide building. I kept saying it looked a little flat. Because you get that impression because its much wider than the normal building would be and I got the impression that where the end should be it kind of overhung quite a bit. For some reason. I'm going to try to draw it from the perspective that I was viewing #66: Okay, when you say its flat, and then later you tell me about these. . #1: Well. . #66: large things inside? #1: Its got a . . a roof like that. 11 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 00100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA R000100030001-8 #66: Oh, I see what you're saying. #1: What I'm saying is in pro . . its size, proportionate size, makes it appear to be lower and flater than what it is, but is really a huge, like a factory. Almost like a factory building. #66: Okay. #1: And its very, very large. And I get the feeling like this end, for some reason, was a free supported overhang. And then. . . the sides kind of came out. PAUSE Like the sides sort of came out like this and you could look back up under it. And back up under it there was . . on the left side, was a very large door. Like a . . almost like an aircraft hangar opening. And on the right was a very large door. . . much like it. It reminds me a lot of a . . reminds me a lot of a steel plant. Only, I don;t think they make steel, I know they don't make steel here. They're making something out of steel. At least I'm left with thatimpression. And then also standing back here there's like what appeared to be . . . well, there appeared to be something with fins. Like there were some kind of fins right here. Fastened to something. Only this object was very dark. And there was one right here as well. And. #66: Feel free to use any of the various colored pencils or other pens to make things appear in proper contrast. #1: Yeah. I don't know if I'd be good at that to tell you the truth. #66: I just wanted you to be expressive for shadowing whatever you want to do. #1: Yeah. Yeah. There's what appears to be a couple rails come out of here like this. And out of here like these objects are moved on rails, large rails. Some kind of a holding type bracket. And then overhead there was like a . . I don't get a clear picture of this at all, but there's like a ? ? ? PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDT 0030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 000100030001-8 There's some kind of free standing crane over here. Like four-legged type thing with inter- connecting pieces. And, I'm not sure if this also rides those same rails or not, but it . . it has a capacity for moving both directions. PAUSE They're . . for some reason I sense there was something coming . . that's the cross piece I was talking about. #66: Um hm. #1: This darked in area here. And the cross piece, but this is like a . . a crane or a lifting device of some sort. And . . and there was two of those, one on each side. But down in this area was like . . light pieces of metal. Now. just different shapes that were neatly laid out like . . . I'll tell you what it looked like. When you lay out a jig saw puzzle before you work on a jug saw puzzle, you put all the right colors in one place, but all the appropriate pieces in another, all your half-moon shapes here, all your square pieces here -- it looked like an array of . . poker chips, you know, different color, sizes, models of poker chips. Just all these little puzzle pieces put in the right place. #66: All right. Fine. #1: And they were all metal. Or appeared to be some form of metal. PAUSE And then there was fencing all around this. An immense amount of fencing. With a lot of poled lights. With these poled lights shining back down in the . . these compounds. And a lot of activity and noise. Like there was a lot of work going on. That's the one building. PAUSE This other thing. #66: Okay. That was . . we'll move on to Page 2 now? #1: Page 2, yeah. 13 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CI 8R000100030001-8 #1: This thing is a dog, #66. Looking that way I had, on Page 1, looking at the building that way . . . #66: Okay, looking into it from (not audible)? #1: Into it from the open end. #66: Yeah. #1: The water and the other object are behind me. #66: All right. Fine. So it was when I asked you to turn around and face the other direction (not audible)? #1: You could see . . all these parts laid out. And fencing everywhere. #66: Yeah. #1: Okay. And beyond that this huge concrete type structure with bays or whatever they are right on the water, the edge of the water or over it. It almost appeared as if it was. . floating in the water for some reason. PAUSE I don't know how to approach this. . from a sketch viewpoint. #66: Perhaps you can give me a series of sketches as your views developed. #1: Okay, looking . . . I felt as if I was looking into . . . looking at this concrete structure that was . . this huge object with what appeared to be . . squares on this face that I was looking at. That's why I said building. I guess its not a building, its a functionary design of some sort. There was these huge squares. I get the feeling or the impression like these huge squares are the same kind of things that you would see in a . . . like in Holland in a . . . canal. For, you know, controlling the flow of water. When you want to pass a boat from one canal to another and the water levels are different and you would use these big double doors that would swing shut, you know. Like canal locks. #66: I see. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-0 7 000 01030001-8 14 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl 8R000100030001-8 #1: I'll put an arrow and call them canal locks. PAUSE And . . . beyond it was . . that's all water. And then inside. . . inside, I got a number of impressions. Real strong impressions of very, very bright lights. #66: Okay. Were they inside? Are you moving to Drawing Number 3? #1: Page 3, right. #66: All right. #1: Very strong impression of very bright lights. Very, very strong acrid smell. Something large and dark that has no definitive outline yet. With a red flag and star on it. I get the impression of a . . like a . . looking down a long bay where the roof comes together down at the end . . . across the top. All concrete. And I got , . I will . . do the best I can on this. I got this sort of impression. PAUSE Like hand railing type thing. Going around a . . . a drop off of some sort. #66: Um hm. #1: That kind of thing. Down in here, was this, this dark mass. #66: There's a railing around the lowered area? #1: Yeah. #66: And what's down in the lower area? #1: Water. #66: Oh, there's water down there? #1: I sense that there was water, like water in there and this dark mass. #66: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP-g- 30001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- R000100030001-8 #1: And somewhere in this mess on Page 4, I'll put it, somewhere in this mess is that very large . . some kind of a thing that looks something like this. Like a . . . double piece of metal. #66: I'm gonna turn the tape over now 'cause we're getting towards the end and I don't really want to miss anything so I'm going to go ahead and turn it over now. #1: Okay. TURN OVER TAPE #1: Confused about these things that clamp. But I get a very strong impression that this clamp type thing is being modified or exchanged or something's being done with that. #66: Okay, there's something going on (not audible)? #1: Something going on. Modification wise. #66: Okay, now in talking about size again, I still don't have an idea about this building that you're talking about. This cement structure. You say its big and there's some water inside of it or some- thing. And I'm not too sure I understand how much water is inside or. . . or . . how big this thing really is. #1: Its . . . I get the impression that its . . . that its a deliberately hardened building. By hardened I mean that they went to extremes to make it very strong. #66: Uh huh. #1: There's a lot of concrete in it. That . . you could easily pull a . . . a . . .150 foot ship v' into the shallow water bay type thing inside. #66: Oh, okay, now I have an idea how big it might be. #1: Okay. #66: Sure. #1: That kind of thing. But that's not the sole function of this place. I'm seeing these clamp like things and I don't know exactly how they're Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDEt -00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- R000100030001-8 used or what they're for, but T get the impression that they're on something . . on something curved. That's dark black. That's . . . (Not audible) turb power of the wheels on that trash can. (NOTE: Reference noise outside viewing room.) PAUSE I just don't know what these are. #66: But, you somehow you seem to be trying to tell me that's there's something really important about these clamps, is that what I hear you saying? #1: Yeah. PAUSE There's something really important about the the . . . the whole function of this thing. This . . . complex or base or . . complex, I guess it'd be safer to call it complex. Its not a manu . . At first I thought it was a manufacturing thing, but its not. I get the impression that it . . the word "upgrade", the word "modification" becomes very apparent, or very strong for some reason. #66: Okay. #1: It would be like . . . if we were going to adapt all our M60 tanks, we would design and bulld this certain place that we just drive ouY tanks in one end, modify them and drive out the other end. That's it. #66: All right. #1: And that's the impression I have with this. . only this isn't tanks. I don't think. #66: Well, all right. #1: I'd say more, more . . some kind of a modification 2.L.1217maalmaaliF vessels of some vay.14 17 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDSM00100030001-8 , bit Approved For Release 2000/08/07: 788R000100030001-8 #66: All right. #1: I don't have a feel for it . . kind of. #66: Okay, we've been at this quite a while now, so we'd like to take a break, is there anything that you feel that you want to add now? #1: Nope. #66: That you haven't told me. #1: Nope. #66: Okay, that'll do it then. 18 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 N Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 SG1C Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Next 4 Page(s) In Document Exempt Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 S----/4,7sS(.0 /AP TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: TIME #66: SG1A RE1788R000100030001-8 TRANSCRIPT REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION C 55 This will be a remote viewing session (edited for security). PAUSE Bring your attention to focus on the cement building just North of #1: I have a . . PAUSE I have a very . . . strong impression of a . immense amount of noise. . in the building. I see some . . Ohhh. #66: Describe your position perspective please. #1: I'm standing inside the building. #66: All right, thank you, continue. PAUSE #1: I have my back to the . . the side of the building that's away from the water. And. . . there's. . . I'm in, I'm impressed by . . . gargantuan machines, lifts. Or, large . . . a . . they're cutting tools. They're large, large sections of metal. Like dies. They're . . . They're used for . . They're used for pieces that are very large and this building is just . . just full of this equipment. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CStgay88R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: SEC 1111788R000100030001-8 There's . . a empty section. It appears to be like a section of raised floorings. Its polished. Metal or wood of some kind. And there's . . . a some kind of . . I get the impression of large newspapers or something spread out on the floor. Large sections of white paper. Like curtains or something laid flat on the floor. PAUSE +05 There's a . . people walking around on the papers. Doesn't make any sense. There's a large . . . tunnel type . . exit at the end. Its square though, its like . . its like dark there and there's a . . . overhead rails that run through this tunnel. #66: Which end of the building? #1: From the . . on the en5id towards the water. Its . . This building's connected to another building. The other building is . . a ? ? covered dry dock facility, it appears. PAUSE That . . . that . . is definitely what it is. There's . . . these rails take something into the other building. Parts or something. Pieces. Large objects. PAUSE On the back side, . . . there's concrete build- ing, the wall, looks like its got windows all in it but, . . . its kind of funny 'cause they . . . the windows are facing inside the building. But there. . . they're windows to another build- ing. PAUSE I see . . windows looking in. I don't under- stand that. There's. . . lots of . . . lots of +10 . . lots of people in funny hats in windows. And funny tables that are crooked. PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RE996-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Z ,IAIE1788R000100030001-8 #1: And . . . there's maybe three floors of these windows. (Not audible). See this whole building from the windows. I . . I . . the word, "prototype" pops in my mind and I . . I get the feeling of . . . model or modular or . . or . . prototype or PAUSE ILLEGIB I . . . I'm what be. s lik- .ar submarine in this building. but Its not. . . its not meant to be a whole submarine. Its like its a . . a . . almost like a mock-up of some sort. And there's only a part of it that's real. And now. . . appears to be some kind of a . . . a . . . modification or something. There's . . . They're making something here that's . . . that's an adaptable modification. #66: How did this submarine come to be in the building? #1: Its . . . There's not a whole submarine there. Its like the . . . piece cut from a submarine. Its like . . like they created part of a submarine to . . . to . . fasten this modification to. I'm getting a strong, strong impression of a huge coffin type container with the lid open. Its really strange and its kind of like in two sections like a . . . top on a coffin. Its . . . #66: Where is this in the building? #1: Its the modification. Its like round on the end. On the edge and the top's up. And there's . . . there's tubes dangling from the underside. No. Its not right. They look like some kind of a . . or . . recessed . . some kind of a hydraulic lifter or some sort. There's . . #66: What does this coffin like object have to do with the piece of submarine? #1: That's about all there is to it. PAUSE Its like . . . Its like if you were, if you were designing watch bands, you wouldn't want the whole person to try them on, you'd just need the wrist so you'd fake an artificial wrist instead of a whole person. Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96- 3 030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA R000100030001-8 #66: All right. All right. #1: I get the feeling that the whole submarine was never meant to be . . But they mocked it up. Just a modification on it that's important. Its a huge modification. That's what it is. Its a huge. . hump. No, that's not a good word. PAUSE Its like a hump coffin. Ha! PAUSE #66: How large is the hump coffin in relationship to the portion of the submarine? PAUSE #1: Two-thirds of its lenglja, If it were all there. And proga-M-7= upper third. Its like a giant coffin type thing. #66: Is this modification to be . . how is it gonna be connected to the submarine? +15 #1: It appears . . that its . . Its like . . the sub plates that its connected to or . . are remolded in some way. And the . . #66: Am I to understand that this thing is somehow on the exterior of the submarine? #1: Yeah. Its . . . Its part of the submarine though. Its like you would remove . . . remove sections of plating from the submarine, an4put this in its place. PAUSE Its . . . very large. And. . I'm seeing something like grapling hooks or something under it like that design that I saw earlier. Ithink. . I think that there. . . I think that this is like a_Erototype; and . . . the modification important there other than its design function. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : C 000100030001-8 The modification's built in this section. Its built in this building. And taken to the other . . . the other building. That's . . I . . I get the impression that;s not the only modifica- tion going on there. I see what appears to be . #66: What about these calmp type device that you saw before? #1: There's some . . some. . I didn't see the hydraulics before, but I see hydraulics associated with it. Lift type hydraulics. I don't . . . They're not . . PAUSE They're not . . They don't appear to be air hydraulics, they appear to be fluid hydraulics. A lot of overhead lifts - rail lifts. A lot of catwalks around this, this . . this mock up. I don't . . . I don't . . . I think this is just the . . . preliminary model of production or something. PAUSE That. . . They have a . ? ? #66: How do they get this . . . out of here? #1: The mock up doesn't matter. They . . They . . . They . . They take . . . They make the mock up piece with the machines and I get the impression that then they can make the piece over and over. And the pieces are taken into the other building. #66: Okay, tell me about this other building. Where is it located? #1: Its . . Its on the water side. Its . . probably #66: What size building is it? #1: 120 feet by maybe 350 feet. PAUSE Maybe a little smaller. 100 by 300. #66: It doesn't sound nearly as big as the other building. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RD 96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl 8R000100030001-8 #1: No, its very small, but there's . . . there's ships in it. Supposed to be ships in it, or . . . or . . Yeah, there's ships in it. PAUSE The pieces are taken through the tunnel and they're put on ships in that building. Sub- marines. PAUSE I'm seeing . . a lot of that . . more activity than normal there now. I . I feel like there's probably not too much activity going on, but I +17 see a lot of . . . black sails. Don't know. . . Don't know what that is. Fins, I see fins. Like little fins. Square. #66: What's your position of perspective now? #1: Standing. . . standing in the corner of the little building looking in the . . in the bays. PAUSE I don't . . I . . . Its very, for some reason, extremely difficult to see. . . to see the shapes of the submarine. Its like they're there and they are not there. Like maybe its because they're so temporary or something. #66: Okay, I want you to position yourself over, 100 feet, over the cement building. PAUSE Position yourself 100 feet over the cement building. PAUSE #1: Um hm. #66: Now to the left describe the open area outside of the building to the left. PAUSE #1: Which side am I facing? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP9- 030901-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 88R000100030001-8 #66: You tell me whatever you want to describe. #1: I'm facing . . I'm facing quays. Ships Parked ships. #66: Okay and to which side of the building are these? #1: That;s what I'm facing. #66: All right now to the left then, if you're facing that way, now what's to the left side of the building? #1: The . . The small building. #66: And what else? #1: The water. #66: Okay. #1: There's two. . two bays in the small building. They. . . There's three but . . . I can't see the middle one for some reason. I don't under- stand that . . . Its three bays but there appears to be two. I don't . . . #66: Tell me about the construction of this building that's to the left. #1: Its . . PAUSE Its got tall sides. #66: Um hm. #1: Perhaps. . . four . . . five sotries or six ries tall. #66: All right. That's very good. #1: Flat roof. #66: Okay and that is to the left of the cement building? #1: Yes. #66: All right. Now between the cement building, face forward again, tell . . . Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP98-00788R000100030001-8 LLJ Approved For Release 2000/08/07: C 88R000100030001-8 #1: Facing the quays. #66: Facing the quays, tell me about just over the edge of the building between the building and the quays, tell me about that area. #1: Ha ha. PAUSE +27 That's. . . That's all crates. Stacked crates and stacked with pieces . . Its sort of like the puzzle affair, you know that area with the pieces to the puzzle. #66: All right, fine. #1: But is not . . . the same, its like crated objects. I . . machines are crated there too. They may. . There may even . . . (not audible). Machines not covered sitting there. #66: All right fine, position yourself over the building again and tell me when you're there. Position yourself directly over the building. #1: Okay. #66: Now look straight down. Straight down at the building. #1: Uh huh. #66: And describe what you see. PAUSE #1: I see a roof. #66: All right. That's fine. Now, simply disolve the roof and see right through so you are seeing the schematic. #1: I see . . large machines and . . a whole bunch of railroad tracks suspended in the air. #66: All right. Focus further down now, further down focus. PAUSE #1: I see . . looks like . . huge presses and things. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96- 030001-8 8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 0100030001-8 #66: Okay. Tell me about the colors. PAUSE #1: I'm getting a strong impression of . . . like . . . rust browns and. . dark grays; mostly rust brown color. #66: Okay. #1: A lot of primer color. #66: Now. #1: Its like . . ? #66: Go ahead. #1: Its like . just a maze of machines. #66: Um hm. Now I want you to focus on this very clearly looking down at the building now. You have to be very careful when you look down into the building not to slip down to the areas that you're looking at. You have to be very careful to maintain yourposition, your perspective when you look down. Hold yourself up there at 100 feet above the target. And now, as you focus down on that I want you to concentrate very carefully on the . . the basic layout of the machines and the way things are done in there and the shematic of the floors. . . #1: Jesus! #66: (Not audible) organized. That's right. Hold yourself up there, 100 feet up. PAUSE Its not necessary to explain all that to me but I want you to draw it later so look at it very carefully. #1: I see (not audible) tunnel ways coming into the building. #66: All right. Fine. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl PAUSE 9 ?. II R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: #1: Okay. PAUSE What a mess. Jesus! PAUSE 788R000100030001-8 +32 #66: All right. I have no further questions about the target at this time. I would like to provide you the opportunity to say anything that you'd like to say about the target. PAUSE #1: There. . . . PAUSE I got a very strong impression that its a . . modifications of the weapon system but I . . I don't see any weapons. . . which is . . a kind of a confusing thing. #66: Explain your impression, the raw impression that makes you say weapon system. #1: Its . . I'm askin m self the uestion, what igm this . . this coffin like thing. And _e answer I keep giving myself is that its a weapon. And, I don't know why. I nrirl see any weapon.: #66: Tell me about the inside of this coffin object. PAUSE #1: Just a mare of bent metal and hydraulics. And some . . . apparently, pneumatic hoses or some- thing. Very, very complicated. Circles upon circles. So . . circles. I don't know. PAUSE That's all I get. PAUSE #66: All right. When you feel you're ready, I'd like you to draw the impression you have of the layout of this building. . . and the objects there. #1: You could draw a month from this place. Very fine target. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 MITT Approved For Release 2000/08/07: PAUSE 788R000100030001-8 #1: Um hm. Getting all my parts to working here. #66: Okay. Stretch your arms, stretch your legs, and sit up when you're ready. #1: I don't think I want to move. Ha ha ha. #66: I'll giveyou a little light and maybe that will help you wake up. PAUSE #1: I feel like all my muscles go to sleep. PAUSE (Not audible) PAUSE Well, Page 1. Building - its all like this. I get the impression they're sliding doors on these two sides, there and on this side over here. Large sliding doors. And there's like a . . these things like in layers. There's like a big section of cleared floor back here. And its up . . raised up like. And there's a catwalk going to it that goes down this way. And . . . We'll call the raised floor "A" and the catwalk "B". And there's like papers drawn on this thing. You know, like . . and there's people walking around on it. Right here is like a . . right on the end of that, . . . is this big thing that looks like a coffin with a round end and a cover like in two pieces that's up. And I get the impression like there's partial hull plates under it. And like, this is a mock up of the back of a submarine. I wonder. . . That's funny I didn't see it as a back of a submarine before. That's what it looks like. Its on a big frame type stand. There's like catwalks that go all the way around it. We'll call this "C". And then there's another clear section over here that looks like there's some . . . I don't know, its like an assembly area, like they put parts or pieces together here. That's in the dotted line, that's "D". And then I get the idea that over all of this, there's this . . . there's like this . . this kind of thing. Its a lift type thing that does this. Here a whole building comes back and goes out a door into a tunnel over here and this is like a railroad track. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R00010 11 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : C 88R000100030001-8 #66: You said you saw more than one tunnel (not audible) or something? #1: Yeah. I'll get to those in a minute. #66: Okay. #1: This . . . tunnel or walkway or whatever it is is very large. And this track goes through it into another building which is comparatively smaller right here. These are the quays over here. #66: On the top of the page? #1: On the top of the page are the quays #66: Would you write that in there? #1: Yes. And, the parts, the large parts of pieces are motivated down through these, through this type of apparatus, rail track, if you will. #66: Is that on the floor, the tracking? #1: No. No. Its in the air. Suspended from the ceiling. #66: Oh I see, okay, like a crane lift (not audible)? #1: Yeah. Right. Only there's a whole lot of them and there appears to be that there are some - of course I'll make dotted lines to represent it some going crossways that are under those or over those some way. . . like switching stations so to speak #66: Okay. #1: And all under this are just huge machines. Just lining these tracks. Going all the way around. And the rest of the room is just huge big machines. Like its some kind of a . . like . . machinst's dream to have this place. PAUSE #66: And what do these machines do? What . . #1: They're cutting metal or bending metal, welding metal, shaping metal. Its like a tool and die works. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDFIA-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 PAUSE 0788R000100030001-8 And these rails go out of the building here at these doors. PAUSE Where the arrows are. Now what's really interesting, kind of a mind blower, is that back here is two more tunnels, like entrances exits. They're like thoroughfares. But, right immediately over these openings - I want to draw this on Page 2. Immediately over these two openings, like this was the building. . . these two tunnels are, there's like three catwalks or four catwalks. Four catwalks. With windows. Only they're windows looking in. And there's, you know, up and down stairs . . . #66: This is a side view of it? #1: Yeah, this is a side view. Its really strange. And then these windows is . . . all these windows are lit and there's all people with funny hats in these windows. #66: On the inside? #1: On the inside. #66: If I was to look through the windows from the outside I would see people with funny hats inside? #1: No. You are inside looking out, you'd see people with funny hats in the windows. #66: Okay. #1: If you're outside looking in, you would see machines. But you wouldn't be able to be outside looking in. I don't know why. But there's light up here. #66: I don't know as I understand . . #1: Bright light. Band of light here. #66: I don't know as I understand your concept there of (not audible) stand outside and look in? #1: its like . Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDPn-OSettlirr0001-8 ? , Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 000100030001-8 #66: windows? #1: No. Its like a double wall, I guess, with offices inbetween the walls. But these tunnels go some- where. #66: All right. #1: See two additional tunnels but they don't carry any equipment. The otherone, the big tunnel, Page 3, looks like this conceptually. PAUSE #66: This is the tunnel in between buildings? #1: Right and coming along is this rail that goes down this tunnel. #66: An overhead rail? #1: An overhead rail goes down this tunnel and then goes out either direction like this in the other building. #66: Um hm. #1: And there's like a lift here, you know, that ty1/2e thing. Hooked and there's parts or pieces or whatever gets toted on down through this tunnel. Only this thing is very, very huge like a. . . person standing in it would be . . . very small. Very dark tunnel. Just . . things go down it. I feel like there's layers of these for some reason. These rails. PAUSE And, that's about all I got really. #66: Okay. #1: Oh, there's that . . that coffin like thing. I get the impression it looked like this. With a round end. Goes something like this. And there's like two sections to the top just like a coffin. And the really weird thing about it is I can see hydraulics here like this on the ends, you know, like hydraulics in here. But I can also see tubes down here with hydraulics like and then . . . Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 944)0788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : 8R000100030001-8 #66: Okay, which end is up or which end was fastened to the submarine. #1: The end that I'm going to put the arrow to was fastened to the submarine. #66: So that would . . the part that you drew is up . . . (not audible) . #1: Its actually . . . #66: Are you drawing it upside-down or is it fastened to the top of the submarine? #1: It fastens to the top. #66: All right. It fastens to the top of the submarine. #1: And this. . . this would be like replacement under the dotted lines, would be like replacement part for actually plating on the sub. #66: Um hm. #1: Its like a mod . . . an integral mod, . . its like a modification that reuciires an inte:ryal change to the actual construction of this sub hull. #66: Okay. And so they could take pieces of the old sub hull out and put this insert this in that position? #1: Right. And I don't understand the reason for such a modification. I get the feeling like for somewhere, the word "large" comes into play here for some reason. And I see . . interlocking concentric circles when I look in it like a tub full of bubbles. . . or something. But . . they're all interlocking. And somewhere in that interlocking mess is this clamp type device that I was seeing earlier. These aren't tubes. I don't. . . These are like . ? ? #66: The clamp type device, you said was a . TURN OVER TAPE PAUSE #1: And . . there's a lot of . . its like a whole bunch of clamps. I don't know. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : SMRELAR000100030001-8 #66: Okay, what you're saying is, is the clamp device that you saw before did not reappear in this session so you're trying to figure out where it might have been? #1: Yeah. Its . . Its . . you know, let's leave it at interlocking circles. #66: Okay. #1: I'd better quit, I'm starting to #66: Okay, fine. #1: Starting to get a little punchy here. #66: Okay, we're going to turn it off then. #1: Okay. 16 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-R 00100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 NOW Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 _ Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07,: CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 SG1C Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Next 5 Page(s) In Document Exempt Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100030001-8