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Document Creation Date: 
November 4, 2016
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June 9, 1998
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June 6, 1980
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PDF icon CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3.pdf1.81 MB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 000200430001-3 NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS Approved For Release 2000/08/07: ORCON INSCOM GRILL FLAME . PROGRAM SESSION REPORT CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, DAMI?ISH 051630Z JUL 78 REVIEW ON: c=?dles GRILL FLAME sle474t;d- 788R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CI P19t-q07-4811000200430001-3 , ? , SUMMARY ANALYSIS REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-40 1. (S) This report documents a remote viewing session conducted in compliance with a request for information on a target of interest. The viewer 's task was to explore and describe an area designated by geographic coordinates. 2. (S) The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as raw intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate analysis, evaluation or collation. Interpretation and use of the information provided is the responsibility of the requestor. 3. (S) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document, Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated. 4. (S) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B is target cuing information provided the remote viewer. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP984)(174848 t TIME TRANSCRIPT 0430001-3 REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-40 #66: This will be a remote viewing session for 6 June 1980, 0900 hours. SG1A SG1A PAUSE Relax and concentrate now. Relax and focus your ?attention on the target area designated as: Relax and concentrate. on the target area. Relax and concentrate on the target: Move now to the target area and describe it to me. PAUSE #07: I, I woke up under a big military truck under the engine compartment. I look up and see big hooks, big hooks attached to the bumper. Over there, 100, 150 yards is a fence, and through the fence I can see a road with vehicles moving that way to, to the right. I don't know what time +05 it is but the sun is shining. I see over a metal building over there. Long and about 20, 30 feet up to the eaves. Sliding doors and back over that way, on my right is a big, big building that appears to be older. I think it's, I think it's metal also with quite a bit of glass in it. I can't, can't see that building back there. I am aware it's there. Concentrate on the ground and in between. The ground on the other side of the fence seems to raise a little bit. See the toad level. #66: Describe your position while you observe this. Your position of observation. #07: I'm peeping up from under this damn truck. Somebody keeps moving some of these trucks, and there's several of them behind me...trucks, somebody fired this one up. I don't know. He's gonna run over me. #66: Slowly role out from under the truck and move. up in the air 100 feet over the target area, and describe it to me. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-R 0430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : StAPC RET200430001-3 #07:- I didn't think of that. My attention was...I was worried about a big dog L-8-aW over there. Wait a minute. PAUSE +10 Okay. The building on the right...that's on the right when I'm looking at the road. I just kind of saw, saw-tooth roof. I sense there's railroad tracks here somewhere. Well, I'll be damned! +13 #66: Yes. #07: I, I looked into that big building to the right. Kind of dark in there, but silhouetted against some windows dirty old windows.. ..... was, several massive, great big.... oh! - Wow! Can't seem to control my position. Big, track kind of vehicles. They're not all alike. Nearly, but I could see silhouette...something...looked like a big tank Had a real long tube. It was sticking in the middle of a tube. Ha, ha, god damn. I don't feel so good. Man. Over there, beyond those posts is looks like some kind of antiaircraft weapon on top of some type of big APC type shape track. #66: I'd like you to focus your attention on your perception of the tanks, and tell me more about those. #07: The tanks! #66: There is a great deal here. Let's start with the tanks, and stick to them. #07: They're close tome. #66: That's good. You just tell me about them for now. #07: Oh! Damn! I can't control myself. Ahh....Can't relax. Something about big, big plastic covered tubes. They're electric cables all are electric cables. Very large cables. Must be inch or more in diameter going to the tanks. I don't understand that. Oh! By the way, the tube on this tank is pointed up in about 45 degrees. It seems unusually long, and it don't have a what do you call it.. ...... it don't have a muzzle break. #66: Describe your position relative to this tank. 2 Approved For Release 2000/08?:cAQDRE7T8R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDr-ECRET001-3 #66: All right. Move around to the front of the......... #07: You can't see all the wheel, you know. It's got a #66: Later, you can draw for me that which you see. #07: Oh! It's got a real heavy thing on the side of it on the wheel...about that thick...hanging down over the top of the wheels. #66: In inches, how thick would that be? #07: I don't know. I think about 3 inches. #66: All right. You can draw that for me a little later. I'm interested now in having you move around to the front of the vehicle. Standing on the ground, looking at the front describe to me what you see. #07: I got.....just a minute . I'm getting, I'm getting, I'm getting......just a minute. I'm seeing two different things. A flicker in one, and then the other. One image is...I get a feeling of relatively smooth, uncluttered, slope about 30, 35 degrees from the horizontal...on the front I see....on the fenders I guess its some kind of crude looking light Under..i.....protective grill, fenders, by the way, appear to stick out a little bit in front of the, wheels.....appear to stick out a little front, front of the bow. The bow, I think is kind of straight across. Under belly...the front a plate that comes lip at a pretty good angle to meet the other one, but it's got some big something...another welded on there underneath. I don't know. Maybe, maybe they can hook something there. May be a buldozer blade, or something. Maybe, maybe it's a hitch point for #66: Okay. Be careful now. #07: ...I don't know. It's a #66: Be carefuldust ?t6 explain what you ?see. Be careful. Just to explain what you see., #07: It's just two big slabs of metal with a hole in it welded on there. #66: That's fine. That's fine. You don't have to tell me what it is. You just have to describe what you see. Now, I'd like you to remember that image that you see before you right now, so you can draw it for me, and then address yourself to your description of this sloping front end. Place your hands on the sloping front end and describe its construction to me. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RD Approved For Release 2000/08/07: Cl #07: I'm about ?, feet away off its, off its port quarter forward. #66: All right. Focus your attention on the area the road wheels and describe them to me. #07: The road wheels...big, like big smooth castings...The +16 hub seems rather smooth rather than flat like a plate on the end of it. It looks like adjacent wheel is set back towards tank hull. I, I.....I don't understand. It looks like every, I don't see all of 'em, but it looks like it atleast it wasn't towardS theJrOnt...every other oneappears set back a little. I get the feelincjthe.wheels overlap a little bit. I can't quite figure that out, but they appear to be the kind of wheels that the. track returns on the top of them. Goes, goes'know, Track come- back on the top of 'em. #66: Put your hands on them and tell me how large they are. #07: They feel about, they feel about 4 feet, 4 ? feet high. There's a number cast,... in the rim of this thing. Must be about nine or 10 digits with the last thing... looks like an L; looks like a letter L. It's raised letters cast in the rim, and the front idler thing appears to have sprodkets in board and out board. Very wide, very wide...I don't know why I said that. I don't know what wide is, but to me the track seem's got to be wrong, but it seems #66: Just tell me what you observe. +20 #07: Well, it just seems like track is almost 30 inches wide. I don't know anything about these critters, but that seems awful big. #66: How many of those road wheels are there? #07: I was trying to count them, and it was going down and counting them, and I lope, lose my position. I can't I count some of them twice, but I know this ain't right.... #66: Remember to observe and not analyze. #07: Okay. I don't know why, but I didn't count. these. The number 8 come into mind, for some reason. But, I. tried +21 two or three times to count them, and I-couldn't. Something happened and I lose my position. Just a minute; one, two, three, four I guess counting all of 'em around 8. Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA- Approved For Release 2000/08/07: #07: It's construction. I don't think I understand the question. #66: What's it made of? #07: What's it made of? I feel like...feel like steel! I don't know Never thought about it. It feels like steel, but it I've been trying to figure if it's a casting or a welded plate. I get a very abrupt, very abrupt, angular bend. I just assumed it I don't know. I just assumed it was welded at that angle, rather than cast. #66: All right. I want you to relax and concentrate for a moment, and listen very carefully to what I'm going to say. Relax and concentrate. We're going to do something now, that only you can do from your position of observation. Something that only you can do in your unique form of observation. I want you now to in your mind cut away a portion of this frontal plate. In your mind cut away a portion of this frontal plate so that you can see how thick it is; how it is constructed, and what it is made of. Using your mind, simply dissolve a portion of this frontal plate so that you may see all that is necessary. Do so now and report your imagery to me. #07: I think we ought to dump this you know. I got it cut in half fore and aft. #66: Tell me about it. +28 #07: It's a hmmmm it's a.....I guess this must be a mock-up, 'cause it's, it's, it's a...oh, shit. I thought the damn thing was real! It's got about 3/4 inch thick material. I thought it was metal, and then's got some kind of backing. Looks like, looks like aluminum honeycomb, and then it's got a thin... 8th ork inch... another layer, and then there's something. It is another substance. It seems almost completely granular. It's about...between 3 and 4 inches thick. But, it seems very hard and granular. There's another layer inside that. There's another layer inside that, doesn't seem very thick either, and inside that is I don't know it looks like kind of, a styrofoam, and then a, a metalized cloth liner snapped on inside this thing. I don't know. It must be some kind of experimenting #66: What is the overall thickness, now? #07: I don't know. I thought at first I thought about 9 inches, but I didn't add it all up here. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 88R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : C #66: Okay. You be very careful to remember this particular portion #07: Ohl I can't remember all that. Do you want me to go through that again? #66: No. We have it on tape, but I want you to look at it while you're looking at it now, so you can draw it for me. I have it all on tape. #07: I don't know why. It don't make any damn sense. They would be out of their mind to built a tank like that. #66: Just don't analyze. Just report what you see. #07: Must be a mock up. #66: Now, tell me why you say it's a mock up. #07: Well, it just don't make any sense to me this way. It seems this portion here seems relatively light. You know. I don't know why I went to all that trouble though. #66: Okay. 9%0 That's fine. #07: But the, the outside of the front seems...I don't know. I don't know. Not, not that, that it looks more like +32's a funny white kind of metal, you know. Which... .... first, I thought the look of it was I thought the lookof it was like some kinds of alloys of aluminum. It gets that white look rather than a 'mirror look. #66: Okay. Which metal is this? Is this outside or inside? #07: It was Outside there. That's I expect they're going to paint it. #66: Okay. #07: But, I, I was surprised. I wasn't going to say anything but it, it don't look like steel, but I thought it felt like it. #66: Okay. I have some other questions now, so I would like to move on. You've been observing the tank now in a cut away form. I'd like you now to return to your original observation point of...which was off the front left quadrant and tell me what you have achieved there. 6 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RD*. SA ::'101200431)001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA- #07: Okay. I'm, I'm port side...mid-ship....about 10 foot away. #66: Okay. Move now around to the rear of the vehicle. Position yourself slightly up in the air so that you are looking at the rear deck obliquely, and describe to me what you see. #07: Boy! The size of this critter! I'm having a little trouble with winking here. #66: Take a moment to relax and concentrate.. #07: What I think is the exhaust port is what I see an open rectangular, tubular....)how the hell do.I describe this I see a port that I think might be exhaust.... it appears...cross section, rectangular rather than round as 1 'would expect. I'm looking at the one pointing aft port side. #66: Have you achieved the position of observation I required? #07: I'm about 8 feet up. #66: All right. Then describe the rear deck to me. #07: Rear deck...okay.... It's kind of complicated. They got real heavy grill work on the left and I assume the same thing is on the right, but I can't no! it, it now, where I'm looking it don't look symetrical. It grill work is a little different. For some reason, it kind of forward towards turret. It seems I can't make this out. Kind of little higher in the center.. just after the turret, and it is on each side there. It.... there is something new here. I don't know why I said that, but there appears to be some kind of box like shape near the back ....... ....I don't know what it is. Just a minute. I think it can be opened up. Yeah. It's some kind of boxes that, that it's either made of molded fiberglass or it's a big castings....because of the built- in structural stiffening...ribs...pattern cast into it. It's either fiberglass or, or metal casting. Appears hinged on the aft and, and opens up towards the front. #66: Okay. Listen very carefully now. As you look at the rear of the vehicle now, in your mind's eye, dissolve those portions of the vehicle which conceal the power plant. Simply dissolve them in your mind, and describe the power plant to me. Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA4 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RD:BCC! pi 1801-3 #07: Well, I don't ..... I....uh...I thought the damn thing looked like a big big like a big electric motor..generator thing, you know. It's about I don't know I thought it was about 3 foot in diameter. I expected to see a big V-12 or something, you know. This thing looks kind of round with round big round wires or tubes or something. #66: Okay. That's fine. #07: There are things that look like like....injector pumps. You know. Big, big, like big diesel injector pumps. #66: Okay. Now, relax and concentrate. +32 #07: They're metal tubes! They're not wirel They're metal tubes! #66: Okay. Relax and concentrate for a moment now, relax and concentrate. I want you to regain your perception, your original perception off the front left quadrant. Tell me when you've done so. #071 Okay. 1 got it. +43 #66: I have no further questions about this vehicle at this time. Before we draw those perceptions that you've had, I'd like you to add anything that you think appropriate. PAUSE #07: Thing appears to have an awful lot of eleetrohydrolle. stuff in it. I don't know how much is a.lot,"bUt:Lhave the feeling that this thing has more electrical than usual. #66: What type of electrical? #07: There seems to be very heavy electric cables inside, and some pretty darn big motors, and I tried to exact trace them backwards to see what loaded all this, but I couldn't figure where all the power was coming from. I .don't know how much they're supposed to have, but I feel that there's more electrical than usual. There was one other thing. What the hell is that. Oh! Yeah. For whatever it's worth. I don't remember ever seeing this critter before. You know. I, I have seen .a lot of pictures of world tanks. don't, I don't recognize this. The top seemed rather broad and flat, like a bullfrog. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- 01-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : :..yuI #66: Okay. Fine. Is there anything else now before we draw? #07: I sure would like to crawl around through this critter a little. It's okay. #66: Perhaps we can do that a little later. Anything else now? PAUSE #07: I don't know. #66: Okay. Let's prepare to draw those perceptions that you had. #31: Let's start with your target acquisition imagery from my notes. I have a road with vehicles moving on it. A fence and metal building. Okay. Sawtooth roof and a railroad track somewhere. #07: I never did actually see that railroad track. #31: That's okay. #07: I guess I just, I knew it was there. I don't know why, but I gathered it was somewhere beyond or behind the sawtooth building from my observation point. Well, that first metal building I felt was newer than the sawtooth. I didn't see this fence much beyond the length of the line here. We're looking down on top of a fence here, and it's got this...anti-intrusion wires along the top. By the way, there was no screen on the wire. You know. You could see right through it. There was nothing to keep and this is a bit higher back of the fence here. The road seemed almost as high as the fence, because I could see the wheels of vehicles I felt through the top of the fence. Oops. This is a white line down the middle of the road. Why the line down the middle of the road...I'm not even sure there is.a line, but it was two-way traffic. I didn't see the left side of the building SC) I'm not even going to bother drawing it. This is the newer, shinny metal building 9 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RILIPS18410111101411086611.1fialu1-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 ? CV Fnba?_drii` T439001-3 #07: I don't know. This....I didn't see the near edge. I don't a...from the top, I don't remember seeing the, the far edge of the building. So I'm going to just show that as broken away. I just doh't know what it looked. like. I just didn't see it Uh...these little things are trucks here I was under the one with an arrow, and lying under there I could see between these buildings and this fence up here. I thought the railroad was off in this direction, somewhere. Somewhere behind, somewhere behind the sawtooth building. This area seemed to be cement. I thought the cement went I remember noticing it went almost to the fence. I don't know if it actually went to the fence or not, but I know there's an awful lot of cement up in there. #31: Okay. Would you please label the sawtooth building and the other building there. The aluminum building, I guess it is. #07: Sawtooth being this thing here. I guess a sawtooth is actually more like that, but oh, both of these buildings appeared to be metal, corrigated, I guess,. or something. This one seemed like it had been sprayed with something. It was a gray rather than a shinny metal like. There were vehicles along this road, by the way, that were moving in that direction. That's about all I can remember. #31: Okay. Now, before we move on to the next one then, and my notes say you look into the building onto the right, but by this time you had moved out from under the truck. #07: Yeah. I Moved up above this point right here where I was directly over the point marked by an X. I came down, I came down in some altitude and some doors were opened here or something, and I looked across through the building in the direction of the arrow from the X. That's what it was. These damn doors were open. #31: All right. Okay. And then when you looked in, the next thing I have is you _had the silhouette feeling and you were attracted to one of the silhouetteGwhich you began to examine. So we can work on that from now on. Would you want to do a layout? If you have enough data to do an interior type layout of the structure, that's fine. #07: In here somewhere I remember there's some big, big posts, and there was windows. Back in the back, and I could see the silhouette's of something with several gun tubes on it sitting over in the background. It was tracked, and there was quite a few of these sitting around. In here, somewhere close to the front was Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RRP9 , er,"??- ? 200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #07: I don't know the position of hatches and what have you here, but I saw this big, big tube. Bigger in the center. It was a rather clean tube. It didn't have anything on the end of it. But, this was all readily black in here. #31: All right. Now, we can move right to the vehicle. Let's see. To refresh your memory here.......ummmmmmm Okay. Some sort of a......just to start out let me go through here real quick and then you can take the sketching as it comes. Plastic cables going to the tank. You had the long tube, unusually long tube pointing up ...blop...blop...blop...45 degrees. Your relative position at this time was about 2 feet away from the foreward port side. were asked to focus on the road wheels, and you had big smooth casting, hubs, smooth, adjacent wheel set back near the tank hull. You're looking at one wheel, apparently, and the adjacent one seemed like it was set back #07: Oh Yeah! #31: uh then later on you had every other road wheel per set back a little, and a, feeling that they overlap a little. Let's take a shot, then, at what would be the track area of the vehicle, as you looked at it, and we'll do a composite of the vehicle later, but we'll take it piece by piece as we go through. Okay. #07: Okay. #31: You put your hands on said 4, 41/2 feet high.... #07: Jesus! Are tanks that big? #31: number casts in the room...9 to 10 digits...last one looks like an L raised...letters...casts and iron front idler thing appears to have sprockets in board and out board....tracks seems like almost 30 inches wide, or something like that. #07: I said idler? #31: It seemed like idler. Front, idler thing. That's my #07: I, I think it probably ,isn,"tidle.r.. I think that front support...roller I don't know what it's called, but I don't think it's an idler. Well, well, it could be the angle I saw I think it went down a little lower than that, but this hub seemed kind of funny; smooth, Approved For Release 2000/08/07: 11 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA- DPW:0078 , 0001-3 rather than coming it had a plate bolted on the end of it. Sharp edges. Corners seemed rounded. Which, at the time, struck me as I thought odd Uh can't seem to draw a circle, so I won't even try. I know this track must not stick out that far. From the way it appears there, it seems like an awful ...... Up here, I remember seeing I don't know how. this was here but, this was some kind of I know skirt. I don't know. I guess there was a wheel right here where this curves up. Must have been. #31: Okay. #07: But, in the way I was looking at it, it looked to me like this wheel was set in further than this one. #31: Okay, while we're here, why don't we get this #07: I've never seen one like that. I don't think they make them that way. It could have been #31: Yeah. Okay. While we're here, why don't we do some lettering in there for me. The approximate size of the wheel uh your approximate depth of the track, and that you do have a feeling #07: How high did I say this was? #31: ....yeah, well, you have 4, 41/2 feet on the notes, so would you put that on there. And, the depth of the track, you had almost 30 inches wide was your statement. Okay. And, did you have there you didn't mention it in the transcript. Did you have a feeling for the depth of the skirt? #07: The depth the thickness? #31: No. far #07: I really thought it came down about where the arrow is on the 4 to 4 point 5 feet. Down to about that far. I've drawn it higher because I'm having trouble with the perspective here, but I thought the skirt was just I could see the hubs. So, I felt this skirt was a little above the hubs, not as high as I've got it here. #31: Okay. Why don't you put an arrow there and just make a note, skirt protrudes farther down to just above hub or words to that affect. #07: How do you spell position? #31: P-o-s-t-i-o-n. 12 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDIVINO?1111111" Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #07: Just like it sounds, huh. #31; Okay. One last note for this sketch. Now this front #07: Oh, I think didn't I say that this was about 3 inches thick? #31: Okay okay. To clarify it for me, you had the front idler thing...what you had called the front idler thing appears to have sprockets in board and out board. #07: Ummmmm #31: Okay. I didn't know if that was what you were referring to. #07: Uh...It, it was alot clearer, when I was looking at it. I think I could see all little casting lines...uh. The teeth seemed a little thicker, whiter out near the edge than they wereill:board. Had alOt of detail, but I can't draw it. Is there anything else about that' #31: No. I don't think so. When we were talking about the number of road wheels you were talking about them. #07: I tried to count them, and I don't know why. It was like counting very small measurements that are alike I'd lose my position. I know this makes no sense, but I tried 30 at least 3 times to count 'em, and I'd lose my place, and I said, whoops, did I count that one, and then, all of a sudden...uh...maybe you said something...I came up with a figure 8, I think. I don't know if that's you know. #31: Ahhh....that's what you came up with. All right. For sketch 4. You were asked to move to the front of the vehicle, and....let me see...I'll go through my notes again. Smooth, uncluttered slope of 30 to 35 degrees from the horizontal. Fenders, some kind of fenders, and then some kind of crude looking light under protective grill; fenders appear to stick out a little in front of the bow or wheels. You said wheels and bow simultaneously...or not simultaneously, but close together there. The bow line was straight across; under belly plate comes up to meet the other, but it's something welded on like a hitch of some kind; two big slabs of metal with a hole in it. #07: What extends in front of the bow? #31: You said fenders appear to stick out alAttle. You said over the wheels and then you said in front of the bow. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-01488R000200410001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 ---7"7r7mmorsomm #31: So, I don't know. #07: Yeah. Okay. Same thing. #31: Okay. So if we could have a sketch of that frontal.... we'll just worry about the hull aspect of it, unless you had the shot of turret, turret-hull combination from that perspective.... #07: I never really got I kept, you know, I was aware of it, and...a peripheral vision, but, gee, I'm going to go up there when I get through this, I'm going to go up and look at that. I wanted to crawl in the darn thing. #31: #66 wouldn't let you. H #07: No. I think I asked to crawl under something. Did I or didn't I? #66: Not audible. #07: I thought up here there was a slight break line along here. I don't know the detail here, but That okay? I plated this line up here...uh...What's this plate called? #31: I don't know. Just label it what, you know...I guess it's upper bow, or something like that. I don't know what it would-be called, but #07: Felt very strong about this, and it confused me. I don't know. Maybe, I was directed to something else, but, I kept trying to figure it out. It bothered me. I think, at one time, I thought it was like two plates welded together rather than the rounded line you see in a casting. I guess the strong thing that came out of that, toying with that (mumbling) there, was that I didn't think it was a casting. Is that about the flavor of that? I think that's what I finally came up with. I don't know. #31: Okay. While we're talking about that edge, did you.... they're welded, but, am I right when I say they are welded at an angle, then. #07: It didn't...this line didn't appear to go on up. #31: Straight up. #07: Straight up. There appeared to be a slight break in there that flattened out a little. Approved For Release 2000/08/ 001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R00020100001-3 #31: I.E. About what degree of break. Do you have any feel for that? #07: No. I felt this top plate was not horizontal with the ground. Still had a little slope to it, I thought. #31: Okay: #07: But, not this much as the front portion. 31: Okay. How about there right where you have your finger? #07: Where? There? #31: Right on the front line. The center no, down, the next line down there. Is that what is your feeling for that line across the bow? #07: There was some detail across there, and I started to look at it, and something happened, and started getting conflicting data that I was trying to understand, and all this stuff was shooting at me, and I thought, well, gee, that looks like a rivet. And, I said, No. They don't rivet. You know. They don't rivet, but there was some kind of detail I was trying to see It was like I was talking to someone and trying to hold a conversation but there was something over here very interesting. It walked by and I'm trying to see what that is without losing my place in the conversa- tion, and there was something about this edge, a detail, that I thought, well, gee, I know that, I can know what that is, but I didn't get it. But, there seemed there was some detail...edges coming together. There was some kind of detail, and I couldn't figure what it was. #31: Okay. You were going to #07: That's the longest unresolved detail area along that edge. Oh! These are those funny things hanging down the bottom. The hitch #31: The hitch hutch, yeah. #07: Hitch things I don't know if they are hitches. I don't know what the hell they are, but #31 Yeah. Ummm....just before I started to talk about that other line you were going to say something more about that upper sloping angle there. #07: Uh...I can vaguely see portion of the turret here and I thought it was ...the front portion, I thought was 'pretty rakishly sloped, and I was asking myself, why is it sloped differently, different angles on sides where I was standing I thought the front portion was sloped different than the side. It seemed rather simple, and basic shapes. Not Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP9 -00A8R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 slot of clutter on it. Maybe cluttered crap hadn't been put on it yet, but it seemed rather simple. I thought the slope of the front of the turret was important, and I thought it different from the sides. It don't make much sense to me. I would think, you know, you ne8d the protection of sides as well as you do the front, but I thought the front slope of the turret was different from the sides, and I thought that was important. #31: As in different in what respect? #07: Well, the angle. #31: #07: I, I thought the angle of the front of the turret was closer to the angle of this front plate here on the tank. Whereas the sides, I thought was more vertical. They did not achieve the same angle, and I was aware of this difference, and I thought, well, gee, you need the same protection in all directions. Why didn't they do that? If that's a case of angles for protection. #31: All right. Great. #07: What number is that? #31: That's four, and we're going on to five. Okay. What I think is the best way for us to tackle the next part here is when #66 asked you to cut away portions of the frontal plate so that you can see the interior of it. And, he asked you to describe how thick it was, what it was made of, and how it was constructed. #07: I'm sorry. I can't uh #31: Okay. I have it all down here. So we...ha, ha, ha, I smoked up my pen. #07: I was rather pissed off at #66 there for driving me to this 'cause he's wasting time on a mock-up. Ha, ha, #31: Okay. Well you did have that feeling of a mock-up right at the beginning, but, what I would like to do is get a good cross section....don't worry about drawing tank and vehicle and putting it all together let's just go with two, two lines as though you were looking at it sideways. #07: I'll just cross section ...... #31: Just a cross section of what you ran through as it came you went through it. Now, I'll start you off Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-007-881R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 p-Aa. #07: Wasn't there a, a plate an inch or so thick or something. #31: Okay, okay. I'll start you off, like I said. It must be a mock-up because it's got 3/4 inch thick material. Thought it was metal. #07: How thick was the next layer? #31: Well, you didn't give me a depth On the next one, but you had some kind of backing. Like an aluminum honeycomb. Do you have a feel now recalling what the #07: I North American Aviation once, I I was in the factory when they were building the something, I think...SST or something, and I saw aluminum honeycomb that reminded me of this. That's what I'm trying to draw now. I can see striation along the eutawayy edge, and those little holes where these little squares are formed here. I don't know. But, that was honeycomb? #31: Yeah. That was your word. Yeah. Like an aluminum, like aluminum honeycomb. Okay? #07: Honeycomb...3/4 inch. #31: You had thick material...thought it was metal on that ?first layer. Okay? #07: Ummmm.... #31: Okay. And, the next thing. Then you had a feeling of a thin, 1/8th to 1/4 inch layer, not further described. #07: How thick? #31: 1/8th to 1/4 inch. #07: Material, huh. #31: Yeah. Just.... #07: I didn't say #31: At this time, though, if you do have any recollections about it I need you to add any extra words #07: I got so lost going through that one piece at a time, I thought, gee, I don't want to go through that again. See if I can remember it, 'cause I knew you were going to ask me some 17 l Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA rse Ars7tiobtifirilKnAnni11 _3 ?111P oximocrin4cmprion9nnAlriTyk3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 ? CIA #31: Okay. Then after that thin layer you had, then another substance, almost irregular. #07: Oh! Yeah. That was..uh... #31: Three to four inches thick, but very hard in granular. #07: How thick? #31: Three to four inches thick. #07: I don't know what the hell that is. Was there anything else? #31: Okay. Then, another layer inside that doesn't seem thick either. #07: Hmm. That sure is detailed, isn't it. Especially following three to four inches, that don't oh, I guess that was #66's second layer, huh. that all the description of that? #31: Yes. Doesn't seem thick either. #07:. Was there anything That's it, huh? #31: No. Then inside looks like kind of a styrofoam. #07: Oh, shit! This has got to be hallucination. Okay. How thick? #31: You didn't say. I was going to ask you now if you had any recollection of the #07: I felt it was bulky, but I don't I'd forgotten these last two layers. Are you sure you want to pursue this? #31: Yes. Positive. #07: You know, this is ridiculous. #31: And then you had.,.inside that...that would you have a feel for the thickness of that thing at all? #07: What? This? #31: Yeah. That last layer there. #07: I don't know. I thought the whole thing came out close to 9 inches. So, I don't know. Might be the same. #31: All right. And, then metalized cloth liner Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : 0200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #07: Four or five inches. I don't know. #31: Okay. Then you had a metalized cloth liner snapped on the inside. #07: Two Is in metal? #31: No. One T. One T, two LLs. #07: Jesus! One, two, three, four, five, six. #31: Okay. #07: No! Seven. One, two, three, four if anybody is interested in counting them #31: That's all right. Before we're...hold on to that for a minute while you've got it there, refresh your memory. I want to ask you a couple of questions about it. Okay. The overall thickness, you asked about how thick it was, and you said about 9 inches. Okay. You first thought about 9 inches. All right. And, throughout this you had a flavor of a mock- up type of scenario, and you were asked why you had that flavor. You said, because it makes no sense and because the thickness seems relatively light. Okay. #07: The thickness seemed light? #31: Because it makes no sense and it seems relatively light. #07: I think the material seemed light, actually. #31: Okay. What I want you to do....... #07: Thickness seemed light. I don't know. #31: What I want you to do now, is I want you to go back through your entry imagery as you started to peel away those parts of the hull so that you could look at that, and I want you to just go through it, and revalidate to yourself that you were ...where you were positioned, and tell me where, where you were positioned relative to the tank...the vehicle...the tank at the time that this began. #07: When I was looking at the .........Cutaway? #31: Yes. As you began to build that imagery you developed a cutaway view. #07: Oh! Okay. I got it. I had a cutaway, you know, right straight through the midships...straight back, and I was standing just about the position of the...forward, first 19 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96 0788R000200424001-3 , Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 RAMO L4700 LA-th 1 P44.TE > 60140 LNG SP4-C LNG rokfeilTE CEM(') Moot! mom OXigt A.11,03 krert N-1144 tivri fit CoriNdA Ar(vostiov sj Film/twit r-e farcii otiml 1Imr I4rwvr Chain Arstor PY Ail St it Areot r Ct krolkiir R4 clitf't A rA00.- elite Armbr Oilit wily 1.1 4-er 4,0 144414/s) Dvit Wordri-e, Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIAAPOSOMITIMSIerM forward big Wheel on the port side, you know. It wasn't there, but I was standing...what...3, 4 feet away from the cross-section of the plate. I was up forward standing where the wheel would be, just about. #31: Okay. And, where was your view relative to where that wheel was? Like were you down at ground level or were you up above that. About how high off where on this plank of the vehicle were you accessing it? #07: God! I don't know. #31: How high? What height? #07: Were you talking about how high above my head was my viewpoint? #31: Yeah. I'm trying to get some feeling for the exact place on the vehicle body that you were concentrating on at this time. #07: Oh! I know where I was looking. I was looking at that front sloped plate on the top. #31: Okay. #07: And, I was looking at about the vicinity of that place where it had the break that I was concerned about. That clean line. Yeah. That's where I was, I just have a feeling of awareness. I don't know whether was.standing or lying horizontally, or what. #31: Okay. That's fine. Let me give you sketch 3 I think it's 3. No. Sketch 2. I'm sorry. There, yeah, 4, I'm sorry. Would you put an X on that as to your #07: An X? #31: Yeah. As to where you think you were #07: Looking. #31: Looking. Yes. #07: Yeah. I figure, gee, it was in the vicinity of this horizontal line that I was concerned about, and just below it, so I'd say I was looking at the cross-section uh #31: Somewhere in the lettering there. #07: Yes. Below the L in clean. Down through there. In that section there, and I remember looking a little Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RIDI?96-00788R000200430001-3 =zu Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP86.00788R000200430001-3 above that line, and I glanced to my left to see if the bottom plate was the same way, and something happened. I didn't pursue it. I didn't see the bottom plate as a cutaway. So I don't know. #31: Okay. Fine. #07: I'm going to put a how's that? #31: Okay. That's fine. That large arrow going down was point of view. #07: Uh...what do we want...uh #31: We want to correlate sketch 5 to sketch 4 there. Ummm... What was your feeling regarding the imagery that you got when you were directed the cutaway portion on the tank or...related to your feeling of mock-up, and such? #07: I was a little confused at first. I didn't see what I thought I would see. Uh...I saw these different materials, and I found myself looking at a cutaway, and the only way I could get comfortable with what I was seeing My mind ':and realize it was a mock-up. :In which case the materials might not be what I expect, anyway. It could be materials used to make forms for castings, or whatever. At this point, I became comfortable with it, and I could look at it, and describe it. Most...before that I was trying to, you know, fight with the imagery, and make it logical to somethinn that I could agree with logically. I had seen aA_OtOT cdtawaysef-Weapons:years before in the Navy, and I thought, well, gee, this looks like things I'd seen before, and everything was okay, then. #31: Okay. One last thing on sketch 5. The outside front, your words here, the outside front looks like a funny white metal. At first like some kind of alloys of aluminum, and then you said they're probably going to paint it. Do you have any #07: Yeah. That was that top slope plate forward. And it was a whitish metal_ Like some alloys of aluminum you see very whitish....that silver mirrop-like color. This caused me some problems. Metal is steel is a darker, non- descript color bare metal.: And it didn't look like that. It disturbed me, and I threw it away. I didn't feel it was important #31: Okay. Ummmm......okay. Now, we're moved to the rear deck area or the rear of the vehicle rear deck. Yeah. You wanted to say something? Yeah. Okay. Before we go 21 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-111881a001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RpP98,0,0788R009200430001-3 esstnilki 1% 1 on, let me, let's work some more on this sketch 5... umm...the...specifically interested in anymore words or information you may be able to provide us regarding the 3 to 4 inch thick granular layer-. Do you have any feeling for its composition? It's density-, granual sizes?and:that type of thing. #07: I felt particular matter was individually were very, very hard. I thought this stuff was very dense, but being granular it was somewhat lighter than a solid piece would be. I thought it was brittle, but extremely, extremely hard, and I...I have a small shop at home and I play with different metals. I'm no expert on it, but this was not like anything I'd ever seen. I didn't even know it was a metal. But, I thought it was very hard. It was like big grains that were stuck together having some porosity with the individual grains I thought were extremely hard, and I don't know how they were stuck together, but I felt this stuff is brittle, and I was toying with it, you know. Why? This makes no sense, yet it's extremely brittle, and I was torn between this mock-up thing or if this stuff is real or why would they put something like this on a. mock,-up. I felt very comfortable when we got away from it because I was trying to figure what it was. Hard, brittle, porose. #31: Okay. One last note for sketch 5. There's one thing I forgot. It's more administrative. Would you put on the top like exterior side and interior side, you know, on the respective ends there, so we know which...analyst will know which way we go. Are you sure of that? #07: Hmm...0h! Exterior. Ha, ha. No. That's exterior. #31: Yeah. Okay. Okay. There we go. #07: Now, the cloth was inside. You guys forget. I see things backward, okay. #31: All right, Now, and the next thing, and about the last, I think, moving to:the rear end of the vehicle...ummmmm when you were asked to return to your original point, then you moved over the port side midship about 10 feet away, and you #66 asked you to look at the rear deck. You saw here you perceived in the first imagery was maybe an exhaust port. Rectangular, tubular port- Let's put this thing together in a composite if we can. I'll go on through it...uh...points aft on the port...points aft on the port side. At this time you were looking at it from about 8 feet above. You were about 8 feet up. You were asked to describe the rear deck and you had heavy grill work on the left...doesn't look symetrical Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : mnr1(1043000l-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 ...grill was kind of different?forward near the turret it seems a little higher than on each side something new here it appears to be some kind of box like shape near the back. Okay. Do you think it can be opened up? Some kind of box that's made of molded fiberglass or big casting was because of built-in structural stiffening ribs...hinged on the aft and opens up towards the front okay. That was the series on the back. #07: Why in the hell did I say it was new? #31: I don't know. It was something that you said. There's something new here. Okay. #07: I guess it was just a feeling. #31: Deleting the expletive. Ha,ha. Why? What did I say? #07: Never mind. If you are deleting them, let's not put them in again. #31: Okay. So, if we could do a composite there #07: You know, you've got me worried. I don't normally use bad language. In this vicinity here, I remember some kind This shape is not exact. I These bars...I'm not going to try and draw them all, but these appeared about 1 inch wide. I don't know...I don't know what the hell this is, but I see it. I think these,, you know, are heavy bars. I don't think it's important _ to put all that detail in there. But, this is a very heavy grill work. It must be an inch. These bars must be an inch in all directions, I guess. The left rear fender I just...I can't...right now I can't remember what it looked like, but somewhere, 'either slightly above this grill or slightly below there was a rectangular opening. I don't know what the heck it was. This is about midships here. I thought it was higher forward here for some reason, and there was something different the center here. I, I tried to play with it and figure it out, but back to about this position here was a big box like shape. I can't remember if it had some detail on it, but I remember it had, I could see indentations on it like it was either cast or built in a mold or something rather than an extruded or welded box which the dye has tb pull out. The right side I couldn't make it out. I felt it was...well, I'll be ? darned. Isn't that amazing! I've got a curve in the grill work here that curves around this box. I don't know how that happened. But this grill work did have...was narrower back aft than it was forward 23 Approved For Release 2000/08/0rMIMPIMMIR000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 ?7-1 #07: I can't get the detail on the right. Sorry. I was aware the turret starting with this position here, somehow, and I didn't get to It was rather smooth. But, I didn't get to work the details out. There was some kind of box, or something, up, I think, around this position here. Some kind of detail that I never got back to. All I can be sure of is that the right side is not like the left side. And, I'm not even going to attempt to put the detail in. But, I thought the detail was somewhat smaller than the grill work on the left side. I was aware of some kind of round, or some kind of detail back here aft, and I thought there was some kind of grill work or something somewhere on here, and I couldn't...I don't know where it was...down on the end... This thing here may be exhaust...this rectangular...I don't know what the heck it is. It might be an intake. I don't know. But, I was thinking that's a strange looking exhaust; I would expect them to be round. #31: Okay. Why don't you label that then. Is there anything more now to this section? This sketch here. #07: Oh. But logically it makes no sense, you know, that you have a big port opening like take a round in there, and tear hell out of the things, unless you had some kind of baffle or something. I don't know. With top deck, rear deck #31: In that center box there; now those indentations, you had the am I right when I say that your feeling was that they were indentations but there was a solid box. Were the indentations just where you would #07: Oh, it was just indentations for rigidity. I thought there was a diagonal bar in there somewhere, but I can't get the feel for it now. But, this is just to show that it had impressions that I felt were for rigidity. I felt it was either molded or cast. Not an extrusion. I felt very strong about the thing opening in the forward direction. #31: Would you say that again? #07: I felt very strongly about the fact that I felt the thing the hinges were aft, and the thing opened in a forward direction. Like the opening.....the lid was facing forward when it's open. I don't know. I don't know what it was. But, I thought it was smoother rather than having nice square sharp angles. 24 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CI 00200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #31: The way your text goes here is you said there was something new here, just before you started to describe the box like thing on the back that you just talked about. #07: The box, I thought, was the new thing, but and I don't know why I'd say it was new. I mean. I don't know what was old. #31: Okay. The other #07: But, I felt very excited about,I felt very excited about the box. This was the second time I got the rush. #31: Okay. One other question I have, or one other comment I want to get down...drop that down so I could show you.... right in under where you have rear deck written there, you talked about a bump or that it was higher. #07: You can see it right here. #31: Okay. Does that bump protrude all the way or did you lose it behind the #07: No. It seemed the kind of I don't remember tracing it aft so it must have disappeared. It wasn't a central spine, dorsal thing. #31: And you say the right side grill is different from the left side grill. #07: Yes. But, I don't know how. #31: I think we have one more area here. #07: This detail was, you know, like looking at one of those highly complicated space ships you see in Star Wars, or something. It just, you know, how do you remember all that detail. It's exciting, but that's the way I felt when I was playing around with this. #31: Uh...the last area now is...#66 had you do One more thing similar to what you'd done before, and that was to dissolve all that concealed the power plant, okay. So let's move to another sketch, unless you want to use that now. He had you dissolve all that concealed the power- plant. What I want to make sure we are here is that you are you know, that you're...did your view or your perspective change at any time during this part of the session or did you stay relatively fixed in the view of sketch 6. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP9i-500788R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #07: Oh, I was a few feet aft and slightly to the right, but when it all peeled back I got a real quick glance at what I thought was a giant B12 engine with the heads off, and I was seeing cylinder board. That just kind of faded off and disappeared on me, and I saw something instead that was stronger, and I thought, well, gee, I must have expected to see a big engine, diesel or something, and so I saw this. It disappeared, and I saw something about I get roughly the size of a POL barrel. I thought, well, gee, the goddam thing is electric motor, and or generator and these two words started hitting me. I am aware that that is absolutely illogical, but that's what I saw. A big round thing with a At first I thought perhaps these linear round things were wire, heavy wire, or something, and I backed off and tried to get away from because it was causing me discomfort and I was trying not to figure out what it was, and I tried to look somewhere else, and when I did I was aware of a thing that looked like a...what did I call it... uh injector a big diesel injector pump. That would be on the right side. If were aft facing forward it would be on the right side. And, it had ,,,,ajot_of metallic lines coming from it. I don't know if I've ever seen a big diesel injector pump. I have seen them on automobiles, but this thing seemed much larger. #31: So, why don't you draw me a sketch of #07: ....of the pump! #31: No. Of the entire drum shape and the pump associated with it. #07: I was of I didn't count these damn things, but there were a- Lbtof tubes, and they'd go and they...when they'd made .a bend they'd all bend together. Like a...looked alot like a wiring diagram...the way the lines were parallel and make a right angle turn...uh...I don't know where they went. There was...cable like things, you know, crawling all over this tube like things. I can't remember where they were. It was just too, too blamed complicated. I tried to see the front end of it. I did not see this injector pump like thing hooked to it. I saw it sitting beside it., and oh that's part!of that. It was very complicated, and I can't remember details. I supposed if I worked just on that I might be able to find some details. #31: That's fine. #07: Oh! Yeah. There was another thing. Darn thing. Yeah. Now it makes more sense to me, but at the time it made no sense at all. I felt there was a metalized blanket like insulation around sA_Ot.Of:this'thing. Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDE06-00788R000200430001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96:00788R000200430001-3 ,mmo.ipm.f..mmmommom #31: Of what kind of a thickness? #07: Well, it must have been 4 or 5 inches thick. Some kind of insulation blanket. I don't know if it was to hold the heat in or hold the heat out. I don't know which. #31: Was it wrapped tighty around it or was it #07: I think it was kind of loose, and wrinkley. Like the outer protective covering was a metalized strong something. I don't know. I don't know whether it could have been mylar. It could have been metalized fabric or something, but it was wrinkley. And, there was holes where electric wires or tubes went through. Geeze not on a tank, but that's what I saw. Right now, I just can't cover all the detail. #31: Okay. Well....ummm #07: I felt there was enough room. On one side, I could almost get down in beside the thing. #31: Okay. Do you have a feeling for what side that was? #07: I think it was the right side. It could be the same on both sides. I just didn't look, but I felt, gee, I could get down in there and crawl you know, look around this thing. I don't know. I could have been very confused in this area because this doesn't look like anything. #31: Okay. Well, I'll tell you what. Let's start and let's go through and label the thing on the right side of the sketch there. #07: Injector....uh #31: Yeah. Injector pump type thing. Now, am I right when I assume that there's only one of them associated with_this equipment? #07: That's all I saw. That's all I saw. I was very uncomfortable with big electric motor generator thing. I was really trying to get away from it because I was afraid I would try and analyze. How do you spell aluminum.? A-1-1u-m-i-n-u-m. #31: Okay. Why don't we label that engine area, engine area on the top of that power plant, #07: I don't even know if that is a power plant. was in that area 27 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 engine, whatever? But, it Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 #31: All Tight-. Anything more you can add to that? #07: No. It would be too difficult, and inaccurate, I think. #31: Okay. Fine. #07: You know, there was detail of some kind in this vicinity over here, but I don't know what they were. #31: Okay. I don't think we have anymore sketching. #66 was getting ready to bring you out of the session...he asked you if you had anything else to add...uh...appears to have alot of electrohydrolic gear in it pretty heavy electric cables inside...some pretty heavy motors....feeling more electric than usual....don't ever remember seeing this critter before. I've seen alot of pictures but doesn't remember seemed rather broad and flat like a bullfrog. I just wondered if you'd give me some words on those, and anything else you may want to add at this time. #07: Uh...yeah... I think probably what I'm going to tell you.. the feeling of the whole thing seemed broad and squat. I guess that's why I came up with the bullfrog thing, as opposed to call it massive. Yet, I think it was very tall. I think the feeling of looking at it was broad and squat. And, I'm going right now to go out and see if wheels on a tank are 4 foot high anywhere. I have no feel for that. #31: Okay. Have anything more to add? #07: That is about it. It was a fun #31: Fun session #07: It was a fun session. lam normally quite bored and would like to shut down as quickly as possible, but this one, I felt badly when we had to shut down. #31: Well, I don't have anything else. Thank you. 28 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200430001-3 ?? 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