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Document Creation Date: 
November 4, 2016
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April 4, 2000
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September 17, 1980
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PDF icon CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2.pdf2.69 MB
Approved For Release 2000/08/ :leAf - 88R000200530001-2 7 INSCOM GRILL FLAME PROGRAM T CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH D: 051630ZJUL78 NOT RELEAS EG { ONALS REVIEWDON~~/~ Ge-r~ Approved For Release 2000/08/07C:06IA-RDP96-0078I 3 .FJIAM]g Approved For Release 200010810+1 M 0788R000200530001-2 REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-4$ 1. (S/NOFORN) This report documents a remote viewing session conducted in compliance with a request for information on a target of interest. 2. (S/NOFORN) The remote viewer'Is impressions of the target are provided as raw intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate analysis, evaluation or collation Interpretation and use of the information provided is the responsibility of the requestor. 3. (S/NOFORN) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated. 4. (S/NOFORN) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer reference his impressions of the target site., At TAB B is targeting informa- tion provided the remote viewer. At TAB C are control analyst comments. F Approved For ReI fi QqW / 7F6&.11 1G1 , 788R000200530001-2 Approved For Releas 6-00788R000200530001-2 REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-48 #66: This will be a remote viewing session for 0900 hours, 17 September 1980. #66: Relax and concentrate now. Relax and concentrate. Relax and focus your attention; focus your attention on the object in the photograph contained in the sealed envelope I have provided for you. Focus your attention on the target object. Maintain your focus in present time, in present time, and move to the target object at this time. Move now to the target object at this time, and describe your surroundings to me. #07: Got..uh..tat(phonetic) tac(phonetic) scanning this small bits and pieces wherever I look. Bu..h (phonetic) have a (cough) impression...a grid streets...I saw a close up of one end of a buildin' in particular. 'Den(phonetic) I got something...iss..(phonetic) very strong it had nothing to do with all of this. Seemed to be very deep, tubular...shape..'an..I can see the inside 'an outside of the tube...what I thought it went below ground. +05 #66: Focus narrow now. Focus narrowly, completely, and only on the object. On the target object, and describe the target object to me. #07: Nah(phonetic)...ummm...gotta flashes of something-appears to be tall...'an rounded on top...times ...'at it looks like a watertower. Times it looks like.....a dome shape. Round. #07: 'Tay(phone.tic)...mmmmm...Ah...I gotta. . .very strange room- like shape wi....inside of a building.... it's like looking at a cu-cu-cutaway. Appears to be thick walled, the basement...uh...valut-like thick walled shape. No windows. no windows. Structure has....shallow peaked roof....'at's at least one wing is a shallow peaked roof. #11 #66: Okay. Listen very carefully, now. We're interested only in the target object. Anything in the target area that blocks or attracts your attention... only prevents you from describing the target object. So, at this time ask yourself only for imagery of the target object. We are interested only in the target object. Now, ask yourself only for imagery of the target object itself, and describe your imagery to me. PAUSE I Approved For Release 2000/ 7'CTA'-RUP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/ 8R000200530001-2 #07: Ummm...ummm...I.....I guess for a moment there, I don't know why.....I.....didn't fit anything I'd seen before, but ....when you said ask question, I...I got unstable imagery of..uh..looked like armor of some kind....I don't know where the hell it was. Very close, close-ups of armor; heavy equipment. Has..ah (phonetic) muss' be lost because it has common with...the previous imagery. #66: Ask yourself now, ask for a more detailed and clear picture that you.might understand. Ask yourself for a more detailed and clear picture that you might understand, and describe your imagery to me. +15 #07: Uh...I'm seeing... long interior... space, uh, which appears to be arched at the top. But, it's very, very long... space...inside. 'Bou meh(phonetic) 'bou meh(phonetic) columns I see.. .stanchions... .must be supporting.... very heavy load... I've got..uh..large interior with lots of posts, stanchions. #66: Ask for a picture of the object. Not the location of the object, ask for a picture of the object once again. #07: Umm...Goddah'(phonetic)...hum...I'm getting... something I didn't expect..uh..I..uh..getting extreme close-up of a cone ..uh..cone shape..uh..hollow cone shape. Thought I.. recognize..uh..exhaust nozzle of..uh..some type of propulsion device like you'd see on a rocket or something like that. I thought I was gonna see tanks, but...I see extreme close- up of shape like propulsion nozzle. Everything has gone blank. #66: Okay. Now, in the location where...... #66: That's fine. Just listen to my voice while you have a black screen. Just listen to my voice while everything is black. Ummm, in the location where you are now, where you're perceiving, there are many, many things that are very fascinating. Let us examine in detail only that, the target object, and so that we may obtain this description let's start with piece by piece of those things that you've come up with so far. Beginning with your perceptions of armor, and your opinion that you thought you might see tanks I want you to explore in detail now those inputs before we move on to others. #07: Uh...It's just a fleeting thing...right over there to my left, I saw...front, right corner of...two, two track type vehicles. It flickered out of the way 'an about ten feet further I passed a second one. I saw-real quick cut on a ....great big tube mounted on a ...heavy vehicle, which I thought was.....might be looked awfully heavy. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/070 cAT7W8ROOO2OO53OOOl -2 #07: Tube appeared to be...I dunno, four, five feet diameter, but it was empty, but...ay (phonetic) tracked vehicles were about six feet away the first one. Back over there my... oh, there it is, back over to my left. There's something funny about...I see a real bright hotspot...under the.front glacis plate ...uhhh...right of center. ..just bright, it don't... something about...eighteen, twenty inches, from the box inside. It's gone, now, but dat was... a tracked vehicles dat was...uh, closest to me. #66: Is this the one with the tube? #07: Oh, I dunno if the tube is the third one over there where, two... three... it's about, I dunno, thirty feet away...over there. #66: Do you recognize this vehicle? #07: No. I don't recognize it. #66: Describe it to me. #07: I can't see all of it. #66: Move over there. #07: Jus' a minute ...Naw...I swear I think it's got tracks on the damn thing. There's a big, a big tube on it's back. It's got seems kinda raised...somewhere? near the front of this thing. Like, where I guess the driver sits, or something. It's a big tube that's got little tubes an' aah...structural shapes on the outside that...breaks up the smooth rubular shape. Looks like it must be...twenty, twenty-five feet long. But, I don't think, I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a rocket, it...I don't see any nose, it looks like, uh...I would think a rocket would I get the feeling...very heavy, thick skirting below the tube on the vehicle carrier. Uh...I been trying to get around to the rear. #66: Where is the skirting? #07: I was aware there was some kind of skirting... below the level of where the tube was, uh... I was aware it was thick, an', an' I think it goes over part of the wheels. Wheels or track, or whatever' I feel it's track. #66: All right, I want you to stay with this... #07: Track is...track...track that gets hot, for some reason. #66: 'Kay, I want you to stay with this object for a few minutes, here. But I want you to explore it for a minute in deep concentration without reporting, and then come back to me Approved For Release 8R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 C 00200530001-2 #66: in a few minutes after you've explored it. Do so now. #07: Okay. It was awfully hard to hang on there, I...kept slip- ping away from me.. But I was getting ...extreme closeup of...the thick plating that...seemed to...'stead of coming straight down vertically, it appeared about midsection to... taper underneath, there. An' the darn thing, I got a very clear, distinct image of, uh...real heavy, black wheels. I felt they were...were rubber, it's, a very heavy rubber wheeled armored type thing with this...uh, tube on top of it. It...if it wasn't for the wheels the thing would almost have a...crude landing craft shape to it, uh... kinda...flat plate...wellanted (phonetic) angles ...uh... there was... #66: Wait...say that again, please. #07: Flat plates, uh...not, not warped t-t-to the shape of a boat, but flat, straight, plates welded together to form... armraff (phonetic) boat like shapes like...old fashioned landing craft. #66: All right. +30 #07: Definitely appears to have...h-heavy tires in front and multiple tires behind. Appears...longer 'an it did before. 'Cause I'm standing up beside of it looking way back... you know. #66: You no longer feel that this is tracked? #07: What I saw when I look close, not tracks. #66: All right. #07: An' the...vehicle appears longer than I...had thought. But, I.,y.iwas having trouble really hanging on to the imagery, it felt like I was on a slippery roof just slidin' away from it an' I'm tryin'...tryin' to hang on. #66: Okay. Let's examine the plates that you've been talking about; the thick plates that are welded that you've been talking about. #07: Oh, I don't know that they're welded it jus' looks like... they're welded. At least the outside one is, the weld appears to be...inch and a inch and a quarter wide. They's not a curved plate...I can't see any curved plates on this thing. #66: Describe the substance of construction of the plates. Approved For Release 200 788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/0 000200530001-2 #07: Ummm... It looks to me like it's jus' a...uh...the... right ...midsection...below ...halfway point ...down ...kinda cur...uh...'tween the tires goin' underneath' about an inch thick...three-quarter inch thick. Let me... let me-sample somewhere else. The very top of it... underneath the tube...can't be mor''s a little thin- appears to be a little thinner than,'s plate on the bottom side. #66: All right. Now, let's explore some of the other imagery that you've had. This response that you've given me was the query as to your feeling of the armor and tanks. Now, you had some other imagery at this location that you felt might be the target relating to...a cone shape. Explore that imagery now... #07: Ahh, I only got a real closeup of that thing to...about eye level. #66: You talked about a propulsion type ...(mumbled). #07: I thought it was, end of some kind of a... It looked like the business end of a big...uh...rocket like device. Uhhh...with the tubes leading to it, I felt it was, uh...not solid propellant... Seemed to be... #66: What size is this? +35 #07: I.forgot how close I am...looks like the outside...uh... biggest diameter is...twenty-five, thirty inches. An, around the sdie there, I see some, uh...some plumbin'... uh, um...tubes. #66: Okay. #07: '.Ere's a strange things...been happenin' to me here... this is buggin' the hell out of me... #66: All right... #07: Jus' for the record. I been having trouble with my... whole right side of my body tensing up very tight. Great tension. I come aware of it, become aware of it...I make it all relax. Two minutes later I find my right side is very... muscular ...uh...muscular tension is...quite severe. #66: Okay. #07: It's jus' for the record. #66: Now, in accessing the target object in the photograph in the sealed envelope I provided you- #07: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Approved For Release 20 , - 6-00788R000200530001-2 -V r- 1 1 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CTA- )0788 R000200530001-2 #66: In accessing the...object; the target object, in the sealed envelope that I have given you, you have come up with the cone shape, and you've come up with armor rand tanks. I would like you now to ask yourself again, for a clarifi- cation of the imagery you've given me. Ask yourself what is the meaning of the imagery you've given me in relation to the target object, and describe your answer to me. #07: I don't know, just a minute, 'm gonna have t' try again, uh...I got off track, there. All I could see was a dagwood sandwich.. I'm not hungry. I, uh...jus' a minute. +41 #07: I see a...a shell... projectile... part way into...a flat material...that:would seem to...indicate a...interest in penetrability...of...of certain type projectile, or...res- istance to penetration... by the material. I tried to... tried to...determine which one, and I couldn't. #66: All right, now I want you to return to the imagery of the dagwood sandwich. Now listen very carefully. In your mind... #07: Oh, 'at's just's jus', I jus'...I donno why I said it... #66: Listen, listen very carefully. Listen very carefully. In your mind, say that you have a picture of a dagwood sandwich. In your mind.... #07: Okay. #66: ...say that you have a picture of a dagwood sandwich, and ask yourself, "What is the significance of this picture?" Report your answer to me. #07: I can't get the dagwood sandwich again, but...I got...I got...a six inch square section about...lemme see, it that's six inches, this is...uh...six inches, this-is ...close to three inches thick. It looks kinda like a...cutting a sec- tion out of a...a layered cookie or something, you know, it's got a...different kinds of a...layers of goodies inside. #66: All right. #07: Waid, I (phonetic)...I think this is another view of the dagwood, iss (phonetic)... it's's metal. The outside...the top, the top is metal. #66: All right, now... #07: The top is metal.. rnA Q r% f- Approved For Release 2000/ 88R000200530001-2 Approved For Reled..M MOOR - 0200530001-2 #66: Now concentrate on this entirely and completely, I'm going to examine this in detail. I have to turn the tape over now. #07: I don't know where it is... #66: Just hold on to it, I'm going to turn our tape over now, and then we'll examine the dagwood sandwich. #66: All right. #07: I...I dunno. It was like a...a six inch square, or a thin... quarter to...half inch funny, funny, uh...metal. Doesn't have paint on it. It's bonded, uh...bonded, uh...the intershufface (phonetic) of this where (phonetic) metal is, uh... #66: (mumble) don't understand you. #07: It's rough, am it's bonded. I've, I've got it pu-pe-peeled apart, now. Just, uh, under this plate is, uh...I dunno, it's a...kinda brownish, uh...tannish funny. layer of a- of bonding, or something. I have the feeling that, uh...I see fractures in it. It appears, kindaibrittle, brittle, brittle stuff. I'm havin' trouble seeing the rest of this stuff, but, uh...Damn thing keeps changing from something important to something to eat. Yeah, there's a 'lastic, uh...stuff with, uh...'lastististisity (phonetic). It's,, uh...the damn thing reminds me of, uh taffy. It's tough, but it don't shatter, it's uh, it's uh...stretchy stuff. Viscosity...increases with inertia. Whatever the hell that means. Humm...I...I musta got mixed up there, that don't make no sense. #66: Continue. #07: Oh, I just wrestle dis thing, wanted tuh...I was tryin' to figure out...why the viscosity of this, uh....taffy-like material-changes. There's something about the taffy's viscosity increasing under certain conditions. +50 #66: All right, remember it's not your job now to figure out whatyou see, simply report it to me. Move on, now. #07: Where do you want me to go? #66: Continue to describe this that you perceive as a dagwood sandwich. Approved For Release 2000/0P87 . -('t l'9 00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 #07: Oh. I dunno, I...I got some...I got some ...other layers of this thing that...Well I see one. I got a layer peeled out here somewhere. It, uh...feels like a thick "space blanket." Like' coated, uh...plastic mylar or something. Uhhh..I don't know if it's anythin g to do with it or not, but I...I see a...a black..uh..a black..uh..Wait a minute. I lost it. I forget what I was gonna say...a black..uh..charcoal- like consisisitency (phonetic). Like a high density, uh's light, like a high density... Like a high density foam or something. It's a (mumble) must be... must be proous 'cause it's weight. But, it's dark in, uh...color. But, I'm tryin' to get close enough to see the proosity, but, porosity but... It appears to have a very tiny, uh...very tiny voids in it. An' they.... they're not all perfectly round like bubbles, I don't know what it is. Some has irregular ...uh, void shapes in it. I don't know why that is. That's uh...that's apparently below the vas-a-visc-a-(phonetic)...uh, the sticky stuff, flexible stuff. #66: So far now, so far, you've talked about metal, you talked about sticky stuff, you've talked about a space blanket, and, you've talked about this...other stuff...uhmm... that's black, but it's light and porous. Before you continue, put these in their proper order as they appear. #07: Okay. I...guess I made a mistake, I peeled these damn things apart. I got 'em spread out to work a little while t' see how they go back together. Ibbouter(phonetic), (mumble) three more pieces over there I didn't separate, uh..seem to be pretty thin. Aah, the stuff that I said, uh..used the word sticky, I...I guess I said sticky because it reminded me of...reminded me of taffy. I guess I mean, uh..stretchy, I guess. #66: As you deal with the stretchy, sticky stuff that reminds you of taffy..... #07: I'm sorry. What'd you say? #66: As you deal with the stretchy, sticky stuff that reminds you of taffy, touch it with your hand, and expand your mind, and ask for a name. #07: Whoops.....Goddamn, I "zapped" all the way back to the factory where the stuff was th...sticky stuff was, uh... I dunno, the (phonetic)...this may be important an' I jus' dump it, uh.. I don't understand it, but...while I was looking for , for a name of the stretchy stuff, I saw..... I saw a shiny steel ball.... pressing the flexible stuff into a.....stuff that...a light stuff behind it that..... shattered into tiny' the stretchy stuff dimpled Approved For Release 2000 -00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 R000200530001-2 #07: ....dimpled into the....the....the....material that jus'...seemed to shatter into a...a million pieces behind the.... stretchy stuff. But, the ball jus' made a nice...nice, black hole-dimple. #66: Okay. #07: Funny thing is.-that's impossible, but...I looked at a cross- section of that an' I swear that it looked like, uh...looked like the...stretchy stuff.... seemed to shrink slightly on the.... outside, above the ball to where the ball wouldn't come out, momentarily. Jus' like the shock of the...stuff that fractured jus' pushed up around it, an' formed the sticky stuff... stretchy stuff almost around the...the ball. An' there's some kind a...damn, I dunno...what this ball's got to do with it...but...I jus' saw that very clear an' crips an' sharp an' I...thought I'd let you worry about it. #66: Okay. Move now to the part that you've described that's charcoal black, porous, and light. #07: I think that's a material that jus' fractured all to pieces. An' kind'a let the stretchy into it an' rearrange its structure. I think it...I think as the dimple ....of the stretchy stuff pressed into it, an'...after the charcoal stuff had fractured in the vicinity, it... looks like...the density is greater in this area. #66: Placing your hand on the part that is........ #07: That Goddamn thing is hot! #66: All right. Disregarding the heat, disregarding the heat now, focusing your attention on the charcoal stuff, this light, porous material, expand your mind and ask for a name. #07: Waahno(phonetic)...I was trying tuh...hold on to it... I kept getting the...the sound of the letter "R" somewhere in it..... Is a.... I'm sorry, I don't handle names very well. #66: All right. Now, let's move through the layers. You said you have not described to me three layers yet, that you hadn't peeled them off. Let's move through........... #07: That was another three layers over here to the left that I. they were thinner, an' thinner, an'......... Approved For Release 2000/&C -00788R000200530001-2 ua9 Q oar Approved For Release 2000/0& r 8R000200530001-2 #66: Okay. Let's start from the beginning, starting with the metal and move through...... #07: Well. Wait a minute. #66: Briefly move through. #07: I've got a...I dunno, I...looks like some kind of a...I guess about a quarter inch, some kind's quarter inch uh, a metal like material. An' there, there was a brownish-tan, uh...stuff that I peeled off to....... look at the bond between it, an' the metal stuff. An' it reminded me of a....I didn't know whether I was looking at the bonding agent or whether I was looking at a layer of stuff, here,' I.....somehow (mumble) myself examining a...a stretchy... material... an' I thought it might be...stuff ...the brown stuff, I...I didn't get that doped out, I'm not sure. #66: What is the thickness of the sticky material? #07: I dunno, it mus' be....I keep wantin' to say an inch, but I think it's a little less than that. #66: Okay. Continue. #07: It's a nice,'s a nice, uh...I dunno, it's a ... (mumble)'s not like rubber, it', don't don't seem to have snap-back..uh..elasticity like rubber, it...resistance of its stretching...seems to increase rapidly with distance stretched, but it doesn't seem to have memory. It doesn't seem to come back real fast. #66: Move now to the next layer. #07: Layering next to's dark, charcoal, porous light stuff. #66: How thick? #07: (Mumble) I think it's a little over an inch. It's..uh.. I've seen stuff something like this somewhere. #66: Okay. How does this relate to the..... #07: Wait a minute. I dunno why, I dunno why....the word... the damn word ceramic jumped into my head for some reason very strong .... big white letters, ah...big white letters with, ah...oh, I know .... a friend of mine handed me a...... block of material from the outside insulation of the... of device. This stuff reminds me of that stuff a lot. It's a ceramic. Approved For Release 2000/08 3~6-d0788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 88R000200530001-2 #66: Okay. #07: And, let's see, one, two...... #66: You had mentioned before a space-blanket type thing. Do you still perceive this? #07: Yeah. It's ah..whamido? (Phonetic) Wait a minute. For some reason, I get the feeling. that..uh..I get the feeling..I'm trying to locate the position of this, uh, blanket, uh, like thing. It's thicker than a space- blanket. But...I have a feeling that...its purpose might be to...very rapidly, reflect, uh..heat, I guess. I dunno. remaining sandwich, there, is, uh.. all the stuff together must be..'bout an inch, uh. Having trouble..separating 'em. I'm getting all confused. 'eye's a...there's a...relatilaleeik(phonetic) relatively thin ...layer a' material behind the charcoal. I, uh.. maybe quarter inch. 'en there's a stack of about three things I couldn't separate. #66: Okay. I understand everything you said with the exception of where is the space-blanket in relation to the others? #07: Well...It's not on doesn't appear to be on the bottom as I...would like to say, it's up in the...mess here somewhere. It is.. .appears to be closer to the charcoal than it is to the bottom side. #66: Okay. I am going to...try back that which you've told me, and you correct me if I...mis-describe that which you are seeing. You have a. ...sandwich picture with metal side, .a bonding. material, a...the metal itself is approximately three-quarters of an inch thick, than the bonding material. Then a...sticky variable viscosity material, about an inch thick. Then a...charcoal black light porous material about an inch thick. A space blanket like layer. Another three quarter inch metal like layer, and three other layers you have not described. #07: You know. I don't recognize all that. If I may...laying here on this table is...haha(phonetic) three-quarter inch.. metal. The bonding agent may be a bonding agent or it may be the sticky, uh, uh, uh...the stretchy stuff. I........ #66: All right. #07: I couldn't dope that out. I...I'd try an' separate 'em, an' they....I can't see a dividing line between them, so it may be the same thing. Approved For Release 2000/08/ in VFN~-77118RO00200530001-2 2 Approved For Release 2000/08 8ROO0200530001-2 #66: Yes. #07: Then, there's the...the, brittle charcoal stuff. #66: Yes. #07: An' I get a little mixed up here...I see... One time I see ...a quarter inch thick...stuff. But, I... And I... the space-blanket thing... feeling could be right here. It could be just below that. #66: All right. #07: I don't remember the...metal thing except...metal seemed to be part of the last three ...things sandwiched together. Let's see, that'd be one, two, three... four... three things like... seven... wait a minute. I seem to be missing something here somewhere. The transmit...the transition between the...hum...the stuff behind.. .the charcoal stretches pretty good, too, you know. I just...went back to look at a cross-section of that...steel ball...thing. And, the charcoal's all fractured and...dimpled into the material below it an' it didn't shatter. I dunno, there's seven or or eight layers of whatever this damn stuff is. #66: What is the overall thickness? #07: Well...overall thickness? #66: Umm, hum (affirmative) #07: I dunno, you can add it up if you want to. I guess. Maybe a little more'n three inches, I guess. Say, four inches. I dunno. I don't want to think about adding. #66: All right. If you put one hand on one side of it, and one hand on the other, what does it look like between your hands? Without adding, what does it look like between your hands? #07: I can' t see it...that way, but...I've got my...thumb on one side, and...I'm feeling the other edge with my middle finger. That's funny, I can't see it, but I'm feeling it. Trying very hard to keep from ...wrestlin gwith numbers, but, I have an awareness of... about the thickness of two telephone directories. #66: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/x7 -O0788ROO0200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07-?(t1o4'Tr7" Q0000200530001-2 #07: Humm...that don't make sense, thick is a telephone directory? Let me see...... All I can say is I got... my thumb looked around one edge an' I...I'm feeling the other edge with my...middle finger. #66: Now, as you look at your device, as you look at this sandwich device that you have in front of you, describe the setting in which you see that...... #07: Oh! Hell. I was just sitting here to...everybody's gone. An' I...I was sitting here, an' I...I guess it's a big, shop like place, an' I was sitting here at this work bench, an' first I...saw the dog...dagwood sandwich in blank space. You wanted me to go back an' look at it again, an' I saw this metal thing... sandwich... in' you started asking silly questions about it, an' answer it I sat down at bench on a stool, an'...started takin' it apart...piece by piece, an' laying it out on a table. I don't know how I got it apart, but, I can see tear lines... It's...I got it apart. Feeling real life.... I mean...I think I willed it apart. I didn't just take it in my bear fingers, and pull it. apart. It'd'd just tear all to hell if you did. You couldn't do it. You couldn't delaminate it...without losing it. But, I did. I just wanted to see it, an' it was laying out on the table in front of me. I don't know how it got pieces, except, uh...except, ah those last three ...those three. The setting is..uh..some kind of shop, and I'm sitting at this ... workbench. Parts of a...armor vehicle's over there behind me. There's a big hangar-like door over there, that looks like it comes up and down. An' it's cold in here. #66: Okay. #07: I don't know what else to tell you. #66: Thinking of the sandwich itself, thinking of the sandwich itself, I want you to expand your awareness in all directions, in all directions. Expand your awareness now in all directions beyond this target, and ask yourself, "Is there a device which will defeat or penetrate this sandwich?" Is there a device which will defeat or penetrate this sandwich? PAUSE #66: Feel free to go wherever it's necessary to obtain this......... #07: Defeat it, uh.... #66: ....information. Approved For Release 2000/0$1Q,Z 788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08 R000200530001-2 #07: You say this is some kind of barrier. Right? it must mean a barrier. Defeat #66: Simply ask yourself the question, "Is there a device which will defeat or penetrate." #07: Oh, it's with yeah, you can defeat it. Let me look an' see .... You oughta have trouble.... gonna have that, uh...taffy, uh...'cause it's molecular if trouble structure changes where it...hangs on, an' you gotta drag the damn stuff through. with you. use one of them big shells over there; even the shaped charge won't do it. It, uh... surface area is too great. You wanta get through this thing ...the... extremely high density.. .high density.. .high density. Small, small, that... inertia with... inertia with.. .inertia. . .inertia with, uh, small ...small ... cross-sections...generate tremendous amount of...'sere's (phonetic) a tremendous amount of...heat an' energy. Very small area. But, such a device ..cannot..cannot..cannot be explosive-must be extremely dense.. and have it's mass.. concentrated in..concentrated, uh..linearity so that density increases with, uh..density increases with deceleration. An effect of..effects of..effect of..'ere(phonetic) the effect of..extreme escalation of' dissipated energy. Something.... I don't know what the hell I'm sayin'. #66: Does this device exist now? #07: I....... #66: ....Present time. Does this exa...device exist now? #07: Same..same..I'm all mixed up here. I dunno what the hell I am. #66: Report. #07: Wait a minute. I..I lost my position on the..stool here, an' I'm up in the air here, upside down. #66: Go through space. Search for the device that you've been describing. Does this device exist now? Present time. #07: Research, uh..research is ben' ...conducted. I don't... I have a feeling that..the people who..made the sandwich.. is also aware of..counter..countermeasure. Get the feeling that-they are supporting people..who are..developing counter- measure. I been tryin' to figure out..vwe(phonetic) got this..stretchy, sticky stuff. I don't know who it is. I,'s like-it's like-like, uh..I dunno. It reminds me of something silly. Like tryin' to beat your way out of a marshmallow room, you know. You just beat the hell out of it, an' you can see where you hit it, but, it don't do any good; you can't get through it. Approved For Release 2000/0 R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP99--W88R000200530001-2 #66: All right. #07: 'less you..... #66: I understand that the problem to this..sandwich is the sticky stuff. I understand that completely. (ADMIN NOTE: Tape changed) #66: All right. This sticky, stretchy stuff which changes is the the big factor in this sandwich now..... #07: I don't think it's a problem. I think it's....I think it... I think it might be part of the...I guess the word solution, uh... #66: It's what makes the sandwich work. #07: Yeah. But, it wouldn't work by itself. #66: All right. #07: If it didn't have that crumbly stuff behind it, it would get to the point of no return, an'.., an' give way. I guess, I dunno. #66: All right. Now, we have examined the device which could defeat or penetrate the sandwich. We have disam...examined the possibilities, and the research for such a device. Now expand, once again expand your awareness, once again. Is this research...and this device... #07: (Hiccup.) +90 #66: Whose research is this? Whose sandwich device is this? Whose sandwich is this? #07: Uh, (mumble) Hell! I never asked myself any of that. I jus'..I just went somewhere out in space, uh(phonetic) saw some imagery somewhere. But, I'm aware of..three different factions..doing..getting great..great breakthroughs in.. this-this thing.. It's three different..' I see four different peoples-pursuing this actively, but..three of them seem to be doing..pretty good, but..s-slightly different. That's funny. I get the feeling that, uh..I get a..contradictory feeling..that..thing that's gonna go through this is..very small, and blunt ended. Approved For Release 2000/08 000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08 r 000200530001-2 #07: I woulda thought it'd been like a spear, but I..I see..I'm now looking at a..looking at the end of a broom handle, which I think is representative..of..of a..device that will..defeat this. #66: All right. The sandwich itself, who owns the sandwich? Whose sandwich is this? #07: I dunno, felt so good to go after pure science without getting political that I..didn't even..didn't even look. Lemme get out here an' see if I can figure out where I am. Ah, there's one way of doin' it. That's funny, I..I get the feeling that it's U-S, a funny awareness that it's U-S, but the fact that I..sittin' here lookin' around..I don't see anybody-tells me that..must be..after working hours, uh.. in some other part of the world. Possibly Soviet Union. That's a sort of a, uh, uh, uh logic cut on the thing. #66: Only because you don't see anybody around? #07: I don't see anybody around here. #66: All right. You say the sandwich device, you have the feeling that it's U-S. #07: I just have a fleeting..gnawing thing in..left side of my head that said, uh..U-S,, it didn't say U-S, it said ours. #66: All right. Who owns the broomstick? #07: We do. #66: All right. #07: But, there's somebody else,' it's not a secret. We're not the only ones...playing with a mop handle. #66: All right. Do the Russians own the broomstick? Do they have a broomstick, too? #07: Yeah. But, it's ah..this is weird as hell. But, when you said that, I saw..I saw..a long broomstick that was just goin' like a bat out of hell, an' then when it hit this big thing hangin' out in a field, this big plate hangin' down, it.. on impact it, another kick in the'..charge went off, uh..direetional that give it another kick, uh. And, the thing, uh..that's weird. The thing fired at a..extremely high speed, an' soon as it hit, uh..this thing hanging Approved For Release 2000/b8/b7--r- NAEMJ"61-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : C1AyR[T-R *8$Ft000200530001-2 #07: down in the field, it,, it..set off another charge. kicked it in the..direction of the.. the sandwich. Damn, it went right through jus' like uh... went right through. Oh, and funny thing about is uh, it didn't seem to blow a big jagged hole like you'd expect a shell to do. It..just like a hot rod, a hot, a very hot rod, just melted through the thing. But, it's so fast you couldn't see it. You couldn't see it melting;it jus', uh.. like, uh..stickin' a hot wire in butter, it jus' "pssssst', an' it just kept going across the field there. #66: This penetration that you've seen.... #07: Yeah. But, it didn't blow up. #66: ....describe the area surrounding this. #07: I dunno. It's just a big, flat, dirt field here. #66: Fifty thousand feet. #07: Oh, yeah. There's..over there..over there..way over there.... there's a big berm....... #66: Fifty thousand feet. Look down from fifty thousand feet. Where is this? #07: I'm, uh..I..I getz(phonetic) Moscow over there. I be, uh.. somewhere to the..southeast. Think that's right. Looks like...yeah, (mumble) southeast of..uh..Moscow. Uh, southeast of a big city, an' there app.... there appears to be a big river, uh..let's see that'd be..running diagonally from the.... well, it's alined, uh..from the upper left to the lower right. It..from the northwest. #66: All right. Let's move back now on the ground again where you saw the broomstick go through the thing hanging. Stand right there on the ground,and move up very slowly. We want to be very sure where this location is. So, stand on the ground where you actually saw this happen, and then move up very slowly and maintain your continuity so that we're certain were this is. Move very slowly now. #07: Well, I'm having trouble here. This thing hanging looks like a...a big...slab of middlin' meat (phonetic)...I mean... it looked like a..a side 'a pork hangin' there, you know... lean and fat meat layered. Jus' a minute I gotta..I gotta get rid of that. Okay. I'm going up. I.-I'm up..three hundred feet up..What'm I lookin' for, I forgot. Approved For Release 200""'"'^' ? ^'" ?^oar;_n0788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000 0788R000200530001-2 #66: I want you to describe this location from fifty thousand feet. #07: That's a firing range... It looks like a firing range that's, uh..I thought at first it was..lying in a north- westerly direction, but I...I flashed back down to the ground an' I feel it's, ah..East, an', uh..down range is in a ... westerly direction. Ah...There appears to be a river here; a big city up there. #66: Move to a hundred thousand feet. #07: I lost it. I lost it. I'm north of the....wait a minute... little better than halfway...up in a northerly direction... little more than halfway between the equator and the pole. #66: What continent? #07: I'm trying to figure that out. There's a's like looking through a lot of how(phonetic) clouds and haze. But, I get... #66: Simply make the clouds go away. #07: I didn't think of that. I'm aware of a big lake here, somewhere, below, and to the right over there. I dunno. I guess I'm awfully tired. I'm just comes and goes, and when it comes back it don't look exactly the same, and I've got to figure out if it connects. PAUSE #66: Are you on the coastline or the interior? #07: Oh. It's interior somewhere. #66: All right. I have one last question. Previously, you had talked about three factions and four parties that were working on the... #07: Well, I think tha... I'm sorry. Go ahead with your question. #66: You had talked about three. Do you have an answer for (mumble) now? Do you have a location that you'd like to report? #07: No. I was trying to... trying to think what your question is. #66: Okay. You had....when you were talking about a device which would defeat or penetrate this sandwich, you talked about three factions, and four parties that were working on this situation. Approved For Release 2 8-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/ 2 CJA=F Q6-90788R000200530001-2 #07: What about it? #66: I'd like to know the raw data that made you say that. #07: I don't know what question I was asking myself, but...I saw four distinct, separate location inside. Uh... engineering type laboratories. Ah..and I asked myself if I was seeing multiple views of the same place, awareness said that they were separate. Then, I was then aware of asking myself if..... same country would ..... have multiple labs approaching the same problem, and my awareness said no........ #66: All right. #07: It was three different places. I...I had the feeling... this is very, very raw vague...raw. I didn't pursue it. I thought England was one, France was another, Soviet Union and the U-S. For some reason, I started to ask myself, "Who is having the least success?" and, I thought it was France. That's just...raw garbage that I was sidelining there, and I didn't get a chance to really concentrate on it. But, ah..think that was, ah..that that was the gist of the raw, the raw impressions. #66: All right. Thank you. Now, in a moment I'm going to be asking you to draw the sandwich that you saw... #07: Oh God! I mean... #66: Is there anything you'd like to add before drawing? #07: I'm so confused with all the things I've been looking at that I can't remember what the heck I got to draw. #66: All right. I'll be able to refresh your recollection with the notes I've been taking. Is there anything you'd like to say before we draw? #07: I're really going to have to help me because there, for a part of it, I...I can't remember what I was doing. I think I've got a feeling for what this thing is now. #66: All right. #07: I don't know whether it's a question you asked or what this thing developed into, but this is a..I saw the raw data. Approved For Release 2000/0?1,04 i 00788R000200530001-2 %-) LAJ 1A L. I Approved For Release 2000/08,01, . 000200530001-2 #07: Okay. When you said something there I saw the Germans in World War II putting reinforced concrete on the glacis plates of their tanks. Building up a layer or two. It give-them a chance against our shells. So, I found myself wondering if this wasn't a modern version of the same thing. Some kind of stuff you put over armor to help it-help it do its job. I guess. Some kind of, some kind of protective armor. Just an impression. I would have thought some kind of, some kind of graphite fibrous steel would have been the way to go, but,....Well I'll be damned! I just saw a..... I just saw a police, ah...bullet proof, bullet proof vest. #66: Can you now name the object in the photograph in the sealed envelope? #07: I forgot what we're going after, but....see any connection between this police vest, we're looking at some kind of..... some type of projectile stopper of some kind. Okay. I'm seeing a tank indoors, tube pointed aft, kind of...that's funny...oh, the sides of this tank, don't appear to be like big, fat castings... They-appear to be...flat slabs.. that only change direction at a abrupt angle rather than the full compound curve as a casting. This tank is like if you took real thick sheets of plywood, and sawed out the component parts and glued them together at angles-rather than a smooth, graceful curve. #66: Do you recognize this? #07: Just now, I thought that-an the way it approached me was (mumble) damn that looks an awful like an XM-l. But, there's no reason why somebody else couldn't build something like an XM-1, too...also. But, ah..and I found myself... looking at the XM-l going...going like a bat out of hell across the Arizona desert. I think that was just...that could be just...... spurious imagery. #66: Okay. #07: Noise of some kind. #66: Do you have any other comments now before we draw? #07; Naw, I don't think so, except that I'm awful tired. #66: Okay. Return your awareness now to me in the room. Move your arms, move your legs, take a deep...deep breath several times, and let's prepare to draw. (Admin Note: Tape off) Approved For Release 2000 788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/001V I 1VVTN-W F-0 000200530001-2 #31: Hit it. Okay. I will, ah..I will give you a quick review of the first part of the session. You had a...for your continuities, for your continuities' sake, you had a spot- light, a grid, feeling of city streets. #07: Spotlight? #31: Spotlight, grid, feeling of city streets, close up of a building. Deep tubular shape, long arch...then little later on you had long archway; stanchions, columns, lots of posts...words like "the post would hold up a heavy load", okay. Then you had closeup of a cone...a hollow cone shape which you took to be the exhaust nozzle of some type of propulsion. #07: Umm (affirmative) I remember that. #31: that point, it seems, my notes say you thought of tanks, but something to do with the closeup of the shape, you sort of felt that it was more rocket-like. Then, you were focused on some sort of an object, and you said, "is a bright hot spot under the front glacis to the right of center ...eighteen to twenty inches in from the bow, inside." Okay. You were asked if you were asked to describe it. You couldn't see it all, you were directed to move over to it closer. You had tracks, big tube on its back kind of raised; something on the front like where the driver sits, about twenty-five feet long. You don't think it was a rocket; thick skirting below the tube on the vehicle carrier. The skirting goes over part of the wheels/track, ah ...wheels slash track... #07: Aha (affirmative) #31: Closeup of the plating appeared to taper underneath. Clear, distinct image of real heavy black wheels; rubber wheeled armor type thing with tube on top. If not, if not for wheels, it would have a crude landing craft shape. Heavy tires in front. Some kind of tires which I did not catch; we'll have to look at the transcript. Some kind of tires behind. It was longer than you thought. Okay? What I would like you to do for sketch one is to draw your perceptions, this composite perceptions of your perception of the... object... that you were describing at that time. #07: Composite of the object? #31: Aha (affirmative) you perceived the thing with the wheels that was roughly landing craft shape. Approved For Release 2000108/07.': CIbDPE6-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200 8R000200530001-2 #07: Yeah. Okay. I'll try an...sometimes it's hard for me to visualize shape on a piece of paper, so, I'll try an' rough this in with regular pencil, and then fill it in with...ah... #31: Well, if you don't feel..... #07: .....with ink. #31: a composite would be justifiable, then, go ahead and draw the various shapes individually the session. #07: Aha (affirmative) Okay. PAUSE #07: I guess I should talk while I'm doing this, but I'm trying to visualize. #31: That's okay. #07: It, it, it's ...the thing reminded me of a...if you took flat sheets of cardboard, and.just cut out sections triangles and what have you, and, and glued them together at the edges, rather than having... rather than having, ah, compound curves. It was...multiple wheeled at the back, and this thing had a...the widest part was just about the equi.... halfway up the side of the vehicle. It appeared to slope inward below that line, and inward above that line. I can't remember what the, the back end of it looked like, but it seemed like there was a lot of parallelogram and....triangular shapes in this thing. And, there sin(phonetic)be tubes and things on the outside of the thing. I can't remember the exact position of them, but, seemed like a great big hollow tube that....I felt a rocket or a missile might of...maybe was supposed to go inside of it or something. I, I didn't see a sharp nose or anything like that. #07: Something wrong with the cab of this critter. Looks too much like a sports car, but'Iremember there was a lot of slope to it, and there was some slits on it. I dunno, something like that, but, the whole thing seemed like it was put together, cardboard cutouts. #31: Okay. All right. That's sketch one. Approved For Release 20Q,Qj -00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2-2 ccJ1.PJTr6OO788ROOO2OO53OOO1 #07: It's as though the sides were of a material that could not be stamped into a curve, like in building trucks or things like that. #31: Okay. All right. #07: Ummhumm(affirma,tive) #31: Umm. Associated with this at sketch one, I'll continue with my notes now.... #07: Aha, aha, aha (affirmative) #31: bring the tracking through. You were asked to examine the plates which you had been talking about which are on the vehicle sketch one. #07: The plates on the vehicle? #31: The plates. You said they were welded at least outside..... #07: Oh, yeah, yeah. #31: ....about one and a quarter inch weld...wide. #07: What it is...there's a little flat seam between the two. They come up at an angle. Lemme draw that. You want me to draw that? #31: Okay. #07: It's almost like' there was a...I'm talking about this. There's a flat right there between the two...flat surfaces. #31: Aha, aha (affirmative) #07: It was a kind of a little flat about an inch wide itself. #31: 'kay. #07: Like a...a weld was in there or a glue was in there or something like that. I don't know why I said glue, but it was was like that. Like you was...take two plants an' put 'em edge to edge, and then bend 'em ov...from the hori... flat surface n' then fill that edge with something, is what it looked like. 'kay. Now.... #07: I'll label these plates. Approved For Release 20 r__ A 96-00788R000200530001-2 11 Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA RPP96-- 0Q788R000200530001-2 #31: ...You said that you can't see any curved plates on this thing. #07: Weld ... or ... filler. #31: And..just hold on tb that because I think we may have to go....describe were directed the substance of construction of the plates. #07: Ummhummm (affirmative) #31: You, uh, said it looks like on the right mid-section below the halfway point kind of curved beneath the tires, uh... goes underneath about three quarter of an inch thick. The top part underneath the tube is a little thinner than the plate on the bottom side, 'kay, we're talking about sketch one again. #07: Are the, the, the one flat, horizontal along the top. #31: Okay. #07: Yeah. #31: That's the one that was a little thinner. #07: Ummhumm(affirmative) #31: Then, umm, okay, you were directed to examine some of the previous imagery like the cone shape. You mentioned that you only got a real closeup. #07: Ummhumm(affirmative) #31: I remember seeing a...kind of a...cone shape that looked almost like a deep parabolic, very deep parabolic, uh.. reflector, that had, uh, and I'm talking about one deep, uh..maybe twice as deep as it is wide across the open part. There appeared to be pipes outside. #31: Okay. #07: Like a shaped..uh..nozzle. #31: Why don't you split that one in half, there, sketch two, and give me that on a..... #07: Two, let's call this two-A... #31: Okay. #07: And two-B. Approved For Release 2000/08/071:--- A- 8R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/0 88R000200530001-2 #31: You felt that that was the business end of a big rocket with tubes leading to it. #07: Uh, hum. (affirmative) #31: And, um, you felt that it was not a solid propellant. When asked how big, you. said twenty-five to thirty inches was the outsi....biggest outside diameter. #07: Back at the base of the thing were some shapes I can't remember, but I remember seeing these tubes back there, I... running from around the nozzle, and I thought it was a nozzle, I don't know. #31: Yeah, and it had what you referred to as plumbing or tubes around the outside. #07: I put a note here: conical shape thought to be rocket nozzle. That's what I felt. #31: Aha, aha (affirmative) #07: I don't know whether I said it or not, but 'ats what I thought. #31: Okay. All right. Now, this point in the session, #66 reviewed essentially the three items of imagery which you had previously provided; the feeling of tanks over on....... I believe it was the left side, the feeling of this landing craft; nozzle. Landing craft, rather with a tube on it, and then this nozzle type shape at this point in the session, you happened to mention all you could see was a sandwich, and that you weren't hungry, so, you were going to try again. The next note I have is that you see a shell, a projectile... Oh, I'm sorry.#66 reviewed the stuff, the imagery, and "ask yourself the meaning of the imagery in relation to the target object," at that point, the sandwich, you were going to try again, and you say you see a shell projectile partly into some black material.... interest in penetrability of a certain type of projectile...concern with the resistance of the material. #66 directed you to return to the imagery of the dagwood, and ask yourself what was the significance of that picture; the dagwood sandwich #07: Ummhumm (affirmative) #31: At that point you didn't get a sandwich, but you got a six inch square by approximately three inch thick thing looking like a cutting away a section of a layered cookie. Different kinds of layers of goodies inside were your words. #07: Humm. #31: And, then, boom, you said that the first thing, it was metal on top;apparently, on one side of it you said it was metal. Now, in this sketch, I'm going to ask you to...we'll Approved For ReTOAdP M .~: a , 6 F~ ( OeOv 001 of this... Approved For Release 20 -00788R000200530001-2 #07: Oh! Wow! I hope I can... #31: ...cookie slash sandwich... #07: Okay. I thought you wanted a tank. So, I... #31: ...feeling. #07: Let me wipe this out here. I was going to draw tanks. Okay. #31: Now, while you're starting that, I'll go through my notes. #07: You want the dagwood sandwich? #31: Yes. The object which resembled the dagwood sandwich or the cookie.... #07: Okay. I .... #31: ....with the goodies inside. #07: Oh. Okay. #31: You had no paint. You had bonded, and it was rough. You pulled it apart or mentally separated it. Just under the plate is a kind of brownish-tannish funny layer of bonding or something. Then, I believe talking about the layer beneath the bonding or tannish-brownish bonding thing, I believe you then talked about a...a dark charcoal like... uh, but very light layering of material. #07: Wait. I'll have to catch up with, with that. I... #31: Okay. #07: For some reason, when I looked at this thing it was above me in space. Uhmmm.. #31: Can you qualify that statement? #07: What statement? #31: It being above you in sp.... #07: Oh! Ah ah For some reason, I don't know why, I felt that I.was prone, flat on my back, and I'm looking around, and everything's blank, and I can't see anything, and 't. was (phonetic) when he asked some question, whatever it was, everything went blank on me, and the only thing that came was a dagwood sandwich, and this disturbed me, and aggravated me because it me obviously, had nothing to do with the target, and I wasn't hungry. And, I dunno wh....I don't know how I got there, but right after that...I saw a six Approved For Release 20 PP6-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 20 r_ PP6-00788R000200530001-2 #07: inch square sandwich about three inches thick that was also above me, and kind'a away so I could see two edges and (Admin Note: Tape change) #07: Is it going yet? #31: Yeah. It's probably going now. #07: You got it turned over. #31: Yeah. I got it turned over. It's on side B now for this tape. #07: Umm. Okay. At this point, I was still aggravated with myself 'cause I was seeing.... shapes of the dagwood sandwich ...and I, I guess I must have been asked a question about this..uh..this layer cake like thing. #31: No. You were asked to ask yourself what the significance of that imagery was. #07: Oh. Okay. Well, anyway, in trying to look at these separate layers my eyes was flickering between 'em. I was having trouble holding vision on either one of them, I found that I had somehow or another separated them, and they were laid out on a, a bench top, and I was sitting there examining them, and I remember looking at the detail such as...the bond between the top layer of metal, and whatever was underneath. Aha... a bond that has given can see it attach here(phonetic) to it when it's pulled away. I remember toying with that, and...I'm gonna have to draw these separate but kind'a in the position I remember seeing them. There was a square of metal that...I don't know, half three-quarter inch thick, something... It was rather, umm strange looking metal. Almost like it had, ah, had a gray to it like it....might of had zinc or something in it. I'm not suggesting it had zinc, but it had a gray like that. Uhl one half to three-quarter metal. There was a thinner layer underneath, and I kind's got lost and mixed up there. I didn't know whether there was a bonding agent between this stretchy stuff or whether the stretchy stuff, when I first looked at it, was what I identified as a bonding agent. They may be one and the same. I...I went back and tried to count, and I, I don't know what happened there. But, the next thing I'm listing is the, uh...stretchy sticky stuff. #31: Okay. Now, I'd like to interrupt you here for a while, and get some words from you. Approved For Release 2000/0..8/U-:tV tj'PW=00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200 R000200530001-2 #07: How do you spell stretchy? #31: Umm s-t-r-e-t-c-h-y, I guess. #07: Yeah. That's what I got, stretchy, sticky...slash sticky. #31: Now, you describe this as elastic stuff,. with elasticity, like taffy. Tough, but doesn't shatter;it stretches. Suddenly, you said: "viscosity increases with inertia", then you thought about that a little bit, and you said that that don't make much sense. #07: Well, it sure don't now, either. #31: Okay. #07: Viscosity increases with what? #31: Inertia. Okay. Well, if you don't.... #07: Well, it, it, it, okay, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. #31: And, you were directed to continue, and you were trying to figure said trying to figure out about the taffy increasing, and I believe you meant increasing its... um, elasticity under certain conditions. You were....... #07: I thought decreased, uh..I thought it..I thought it's, I thought t's...what's the words I want...I thought its elasticity, rate of stretch, decreased with, uh, the distance it moved and the speed that it moved. If you stretched it very fast, that its resistance to stretch would increase at a certain rate, and I found myself toying with, uh, some kind of mathematical curve as a rate that it...decelerates or... stretches.or..its elasticity decreases, not increases is what uh, is what I remember, but.... #31: Okay. #07: I remember that feeling. #31: Okay. #07: That it... #31: That may be an error in my notes, you know, I'ss..monitoring. #07: The faster you stretched it, the faster it...resisted; Approved For Release 2000/0 . 1 8R000200530001-2 0,01 Approved For Release 2000/0 8R000200530001-2 #31: Okay. #07: And, the resistance built up with speed. #31: Okay. #07: That's the way I felt about it, but I'm not sure I understand that. There wa...oh, underneath that was a, yeah, okay, underneath that was a...little bit thicker char- coal like material, brittle and crumbly, but light and porous, as I remember. #31: Um hum (affirmative). It had irregular... let me remember your words...... #07: Merifelike(phonetic). #31: ...could see fractures, brittle stuff. Having high density, but then you said it's light. #07: Humm #31: Glass foam or something; must be porous because light.... #07: That's contradictory, you know., okay, if I said it. #31: ....something must be porous because light in weight, but, dark in color. Appears very tiny voids in it, not all perfectly round like bubbles, irregular void shapes in it. And, you said that it was below the sticky stuff. The flexible stuff. #07: I don't know whether that sticky word has any meaning or not. Where I was....since I was relating it to taffy, I think, #07: ...whether I got the stickiness from the taffy or whether I really thought it was sticky. I just don't have a feel for that. I've written ya..brittle foam like material, and I remember sometime, somewhere in the session trying to figure out why I said foam like, and I remembered having been shown a block of insulating material for the space shuttle. #31: Okay. #07: And, I. thought this stuff reminded me of that kind of stuff, and, the word...some word came to me...ceramic. #31: Um humm(affirmative) Approved For Release 200 00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/0-100200530001-2 #07: Ceramic. I'm going to write ceramic question mark. I don't know. #31: Okay. #07: Okay. #31: Okay. #07: Now, let me see. Wasn't there some kind of unknown something or another that, oh, no, wait a minute. There was another material under the brittle foam, I felt that also stretched. #31: Yes. That's later on. #07: Okay. #31: Okay. I wanted to..... #07: Okay. #31: ...ask a couple more questions.... #07: Okay. #31: ....about this charcoal like thing..... #07: Oh, yeah. #31: ....going into the sandwich thing in order to bring this back into context of the charcoal. Uh, you referred to it as material that fractured, and let this stretchy stuff press into it and rearraged or rearrange its structure, and then you said density greater in this area, but, this is in the context of the ball coming and hitting the sandwich. 'kay. #07: Density what greater in the foam stuff? #31: That's what I'm asking you. #07: Just a minute. #31: The density greater in this area, and you were referring, you had been directed to talk about the charcoal porous... #07: Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah, the stuff all, you know, crumbled and got into finer, finer particles at the center of impact, and the particulate matter seemed to get closer and closer together. And the farther out from that point of impact you get the greater, as I see it now, the greater the porosity. Approved For Release 2000/ _ 888000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000 -. R000200530001-2 #31: Okay. All right. Now, I'll review for you the, um...the imagery you had regarding the shiny steel ball pressing... #07: Humm. Okay. I don't have this sandwich finished yet. But, okay, get's...let's do it. #31: Well, it may help us go on. I wanted to remind you..... #07: Okay. #31: ..uh, it of you now 'cause this is about where it came in the... #07: Okay. #31: Okay. You had ball, the steel ball was pressing stuff like light stuff behind it, stretchy stuff dimpled into the material, the stretchy stuff dimpled into the material which seemed to shatter into a million pieces. But, the ball made a nice black hole, a dimple. You looked at a cross-section, and it appeared that the stretchy stuff fell around the ball or moved around the ball. I, ma...fell is my word because I was scribbling very rapidly here. The stretchy stuff came around the ball, so the ball couldn't come out for a moment; momentarily is your word. #31: The ball couldn't come out momentarily. #07: Yeah. I can see that now. #31: Okay. Anyway, you can go along with this... #07: Did you want that...that ball thing? #31: We'll do that in a... #07: Okay. #31: another quick sketch, we'll go on with the layering. #07: There was something below...there was something below the foam like material that was fairly, was relatively thin, but also stretched. An' I seem to remember getting the color of tannish-browns or something.Was that..... #31: I'm looking through my notes here. #07: I seem to remember this was a flexible brown or tan. Approved For Release 2000/Q8/0 ` 88R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 -00788R000200530001-2 #31: Okay. Here you are, at what would be sixty-three minutes into the session, I guess... No, not that long. Anyway, my note says ten-eighteen. Relatively thin material behind the charcoal. The others are thin and can't be separated. #07: Yeah. I remember the three was below this section. One, two, three. What we got here? One, two, three, four.... six; that's seven. There's another something somewhere.. I had trouble pinning down. #31: You said...... #07: Oh! Yeah. It must have been that mylar like stuff. #31: Okay. Here we are: stuff behind charcoal stretches pretty good, too, you know. Charcoal dimpled into the stuff below it, and it didn't shatter. #07: Huh? #31: And, I think, that's where you were referring to...the thin mylar. #07: Okay. Uh...let me get this. Below this point, I'm..... having a little trouble with ...this is where the three-sandwich thing was. This was the one I couldn't separate, and I was trying to pinpoint the position of a...aluminized plastic- like material. I don't remember if it was in the sandwich of three or whether it was below the charcoal...below the foam-like material, and it was before...the bottom.layer. Uh... I really don't know where it was in there. I remember pla..... Did I ever establish where it was? #31: Are you referring to the thing now that you spoke of as the space blanket? #07: Yeah. #31: Okay. No. had difficulty locating that in the overall... #07: Let me just put a note here space blanket somewhere in this area. #31: Okay. #07: Space blanket, eh..humm. #31: All right. Is the space blanket thing...that which dimples also behind the charcoal? #07: Oh! Okay. You just sprung something. I felt that the space blanket thing was below the second layer of stretchy material. Approved For Release 2009Q$; R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 20004 ~ . 1 A RbP -00788R000200530001-2 ,, Tv #31: Okay. #07: Okay. Now, let me go through the...the stuff. Now, I'm locking onto it. I can see it. There's the-the steel like material, the stretchy material, the foam-charcoal like material, another stretchy..area..and, at one point, I remember thinking, well, gee, this space blanket thing is right below this, and I was getting, something about.... reflecting heat energy something. I...... #31: Yes. #07: I remember... #31: You associated... #07: ...and that was somewhere... #31: ...that with the space blanket thing #07: ...and, that was somewhere. I thought below the second flexible material. #31: Okay. Fine. #07: Okay. So, okay, uh, I'm changing this. I got this thing to says space blanket somewhere within this area, and I've got it including the second stretchy material. So, I'm going to change that to show below that. I'm putting a zigzaggy line over it to wipe that line out, okay? #31: Um humm (affirmative) #07: I'm going to put delete on that portion. Okay, okay. Got it. Three layer, three layer undescribable material. I don't think I described it. Did I? #07: ...the three layers... #31: ...difficulty separating the.... #07: ...I couldn't separate? #31: Final three layers... #07: Yeah, okay. #31: Okay. Hey that's... #07: That's about what I got there. #31: All right. Let me take a look at it there. Approved For Release 20 g., 6-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/ R000200530001-2 #07: Now, these things were laying out on a table. I've attached them the order they...I felt they were... This seems different than something I did a month or so ago. #31: Well, I was going to ask you, us...regarding that during this debrief. It was much longer than a month ago. It was about three months ago. Uh...there was, received tasking and did a similar function that is in analyzing. #07: Oh. This is the cutaway of that mockup thing. #31: Okay. Those are familiar words to me. Is...regarding what came out of that session, and an admin note will be made somewhere through here as to what session we're talking about. You just mentioned, now, that this was different than that. #07: Yeah. It...if my memory serves me rig...right, it ...this is different. #31: Okay. In, in..what are your gut feelings regarding the differences. I mean are they abstract differences or are they very s...significant, material differences. #07: I'm not working from memory, 'cause I.don't remember how the other stuff was, was together. #31: Well, we can let that sit..... Yeah, I.... #31: ....during the course of the debriefing. #07: I just have a, I just have a, a feeling that, uh, I have a feeling that this is intentionally different. #31: Okay. #07: Not a mistake, but a difference. #31: Okay. #07: I dunno. #31: I'll ask you some more questions when we're done with the sketching, then. #07: Okay. Item four (mumbling).... #31: Well, I would like to come back to three, here. #07: Okay. Approved For Release -14 0788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA=RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 #31: have the one half to three quarter metal on the top of the stack. #31: Through the session you did discuss other thickness that you perceived, okay, and I'd like you to..... #07: Oh, Lord, I.... #31: Okay. Well, I can recall them. #07: You'd like me to put them down, huh? #31: Yeah. I'd like you to put them down in your hand. I'll recall them here on my notes those that I was able to catch and write down. #07: What about the s.ticky...second layer of sticky material? #31: I'm looking at that right now. I'm looking for it. I believe there is a reference in here. #07: Or the first sticky layer, I guess or stretchy layer. #31: We worked it over so much, it's,the various data is scattered throughout my notes in different places. #07: Would you like me to shut this off until you catch up in your notes? #31: No. #07: Save tape? #31: No, that's fine. #07: Okay. #31: I'll be...okay, at one point, you were...right after the incident with the heat...the hotness that you perceived. #07: Yeah l #31: Umm. You were asked to expand awareness and try to come up with some name or word for the thing, and you couldn't. Umm. .Then you mentioned there's this other three layers over here on...on the left. They were thinner, and you spoke about a quarter inch metal-like material brownish-tan bonding that you had peeled off; that was a quarter inch metal like material.... #31: Humm.. Approved For Relea 8R000200530001-2 Approved For Release -OO788ROOO2OO53OOO1-2 #07: ....brownish-tan bonding. There's one. Gonna have to put this on the tape, 'cause I... #31: Okay. Here you are... #07: I'm so mixed up, I can't... #31: At thirteen minutes after ten o'clock. How thick? Was my interjection to #66. #66 asked you, "What is the thickness?" And, we were referring to the sticky material at that time. #07: Um hum... #31: You said a little less than an inch, nice, smooth, not like rubber, doesn't have "snap-back" elasticity like rubber; doesn't seem to have...and you used a very interesting ward, there, do you recall the word you used? You used the word "memory," It doesn't come back real fast. #07: Lord. I don't know. #31: Okay. So, that was a feeling of a little less than an inch. #07: What'd I say, it had memory or it had no memory? It had no memory? #31: That it had no memory. It doesn't s... you didn't say it didn't have; you said it doesn't seem to have memory. #07: Ummm. #31: It doesn't come back real fast. #07: Less than an inch thick. #31: Yeah. A little less than an inch thick. Okay. Now,.... #07: Little less than an inch thick...I made a note of that. #31: Okay. Now, when you were ab...again, from the notes, when you were referring to charcoal like thing... just before, you said the word "ceramic" jumped into your head.... #07: Um hum... #31: big white letters #07: I've made a note of that on here. #31: Just before that...... #07: Oh! #31: had, in response to a question of "How thick?" you had a little over an inch. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200008/0;T. I-96-007888000200530001-2 #07: A little over an inch. Should I write that down? #31: Yes, please. #07: Okay. I've made a note of that. #31: Okay. Then, that's when you felt that it was similar to the material you had been shown on the outside of the orbital device. #07: Yeah. Uh...yeah, which was the space shuttle. Uh, space shuttle brick, whatever. #31: And, we discussed, we returned to the space blanket idea. were asked if you till perceived this because there was some question as to where it was in the order of things. You said that the purpose might be to rapidly reflect heat. #07: Humm. #31: And, that the remaining sandwich all together must be about an inch. #07: Oh. That's the remaining three; the remaining three layers was about an inch. #31: Okay. #07: Okay. #31: And, those were the three which were thin and couldn't be separated. Am I right? #07: I wasn't able to separate them. #31: Okay. #07: Okay. I've made a note that the last, uh, combined three layers about an inch thick. I assume that this second stretchy layer was probably, uh, probably similar to the first stretchy layer. I dunno. #31: Okay. Now, another entry here on my notes is...that metal is part of the last three,comma, maybe the space blanket, too; meaning maybe the space blanket is part of the last three. #07: Um humm(affirmative) Approved For Release 2000/ 00788R000200530001-2 ns Approved For Release 2000/08/377' lA 788R000200530001-2 #31: Okay. Well, you seem to have cleared the space blanket part up. What I'm directing my focus here at is the metal being part of the last three. Could we discuss the last, the last three layers there. #07: Yeah. I...had a vague feeling that-there was a thin... layer of metal like material, uh...I didn't feel that it had a great deal to do with resistance to penetration, but perhaps resistance of working abrasion from...the other side or something. I..... #31: Okay. #07: I didn't feel it was....very important. #6.5: I didn't know I was bustin' in on anything. #31: We're in the debrief, sir. #6.5: Okay. I didn't know. I'm sorry. #07: No problem. No problem. #6.5: (Mumble) I was bringing a visitor through the building and I yelled and didn't hear anything. #31: Oh. Well, okay. We heard you, but I thought it was like #66, someone talking outside. #6.5: Okay. #31: Okay. #07: Do you want this drawing? #31: Yes, I do. I definitely do. #07: What's my next number? #31: Four. #07: Oh. You wanted to talk about something ...the ball, or, uh, the ball hitting this thing, sphere? #31: Um, yeah. For four, now.... #07: For four, that's this one, okay. #31: for four, if you would do me a...lay this instead of a vertical position, lay this in a horizontal position. Just do it, you know, quickly, place them together, and..... Approved For Release 200 R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2 T8'8 000200530001-2 #07: Place them together? #31: Yeah. #07: Contact? #31: You can go ahead and place them together as though they're actually in contact. #07: You're saying you want the layers to go in a vertical direction? #31: Yes. #07: Jus'. you see take this like this and put it like that, is that what you're saying? #31: Right. #07: Okay. #31: Right. If you would do that with a...the ball impacting, causing curving.... #07: I tell you, I see it in a vertical position. #31: Okay. A vertical position..... Can I..... #07: Okay. I'll turn the paper sideways, and then we'll rotate the paper.. #31: Whichever, whichever is easiest for you, but..... #07: Okay. I'll..... #31: ....make your note as to the activity which occurs at the level at each layer. What does each layer do when the ball impacts. #07: Okay. I'll try. #07: God! This is weird as hell, but I had a feeling..... that sphere is oval shape; it's supposed to be round. I'll label it ball. The viscous stuff appeared to...stretch around and snap back in above the ball some, so that.... momentarily, at least, if the ball wanted to come out, it couldn't-stretchy material. Approved For Release7MMISID T 8R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000 88R000200530001-2 #07: Okay? #31: Okay now. In discussing the stretchy material, now, what other...... you've mentioned another na-now the stretchy material might even encase or almost entrap the ball or something like that. #07: Um humm (affirmative) #31: You're... discuss now this interplay of the elasticity..... The diminishing elasticity of this viscous.... this wa..... sticky material as it is more and more penetrated.... more and more deeply penetrated, you know..... #07: Okay. #31: ....In other words, what action does that actually..... #07: I thought, I, I don't know, I thought at first it, it give way, stretched away from impact rather easily and rapidly, but its resistance to stretch increased with the speed that it was required to stretch. If you hit it very hard, it'd.....decelerate or become more resistant at a faster rate. I felt that if you put pressure on it, and applied pressure continually and steadily, that it would probably move further than if you hit it very far, very fa... like, uh, like, uh, something they used to have years ago.... my kids, uh...crazy putty or something like..... it. If you tried to move it fast, it wouldn't move; if you moved slowly it would give way. Something like that. But, I had a..... I had an awareness that deceleration or resistance to stretching was relative to the speed that it was required to move. #31: To move. Okay. #07: If that makes sense. I.... #31: All right. Now, proceeding on to the next layer, it should be the charcoal layer, there. #07: I'm calling it foam like because it's a shorter word. Foam like material, and this stuff...that's a lot of dots... but, it seemed that, the particulate matter was extremely dense and closely packed in the vicinity of the center of this thing and the space between particles became greater the further away from the fracture impact point. I felt that the particles were considerably larger the further you got away from there. But, that they were very, very fine. My God. If this is, uh, if this ..something that is supposed to repeatedly stopped impact, it looks like it'd be severely the area of the that it micht not resist...continue to resist impa....resist impact in the same area repeatedly. I don't know, that just now came on me. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 40 Approved For Release 2000/ J h-0788R000200530001-2 #07: It instead of the nose blowing up, it was like the tail end blew up. It had a, uh...and I don't even know if you can shape a charge like that, but, I thought it blasted the thing in the direction of the target. That's what I saw. #31: Okay. Well, now, let me get this straight. Now it was moving.... what we would call down range.... #07: Towards the plate. #31: .....the broomstick was blunt nosed broomstick thing was striking the exterior of the target, and in association with that striking action there was another secondary type explosion? #07: A secondary type explosion that was.... #31:....associated with the..... #07: ......not in the nose, that I thought was in the tail. #31: .....that was not in the nose; associated with the tail, you say... ....of the overall projectile thing. Okay. Of the thing that moved down range..... #07: I felt it was not in the nose. It was further back. #31: Okay. #07: And, I felt the results was to kick it harder in the direction of the target. It's already hit target. #31: In the direction of the target? It had already hit the target? #07: It'd already hit the target. #31: Okay. But, you mean to.... #07: But, I felt... #31: .....into the target. #07: .....into the target. #31: Okay. #07: Not outward, not outward, not in all directions. #31: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000108J07. CL Qr96-00788R000200530001-2 #07: I felt that the pressure was probably in both directions, but the inertia concentrated it in the direction of penetrating. #31: Okay. #07: I don't know if that makes sense or not. #31: Wha...did you note any particular characteristic ...other character- istic of the explosion've not reported as yet? Any other peculiarity associated or not associated with this singular peculiarity? #07: No. I just remember seeing... extreme stress lines that seemed to get lighter in tone the deeper the material was stretched, as it stretched into the hole. And, after it went so far, then I couldn't see any further. But, the stuff had a nice, smooth curve as though dropped a marble in...molasses or something, and it makes a didn't swirl, it didn't seem to swirl. It just, like it stretched straight in. #31: Um hum (affirmative) #07: And, what was otherwise a rather smooth material took on linear stress lines..... #31: Okay. #07: ....rather than shatter. #31: Okay. #07: And, I found that very interesting. #31: Okay. Was the... that's... still working on this imagery, the timing sequence of strike to secondary explosion. First...first touch, first contact to secondary explosion, did you feel that there was any...was it instantan...were both actions instantaneous? #07: You mean contact and explosion? #31: (Mumble) contact. #07: No. There was a certain degree of penetration before the secondary explosion occurred. I felt there was damn near molten material in the vicinity of the blunt nose, and the extra kick, rather than exploding out in all directions, and blowing a big hole, kicked the small projectile straight on through, and i remember seeing it almost in slow motion going in a very, very straight line straight down range, and I was able to follow it close up. I don't know how I was able to do that, but, I remember it was just about eye level, and I was just behind it to the.... to the ? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-Rnp 6-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 #07: left, and I could see it go right on down range, and I was surprised it wasn't dropping very fast...... #31: Um hum (affirmative) #07: Which now tells me it was moving very fast. #31: Um hum. Okay. #07: But, uh, there was a big berm great, big berm down range that this thing went into. #31: Well, that...which thing went into, the projectile or the.... 07: The projectile that went through the plate....the thing that was hanging between the..... posts. #31: Okay. Now, understanding that at this time you were....had been directed.... understanding that at this time, that you had been directed to pursue the broomstick device, you were directed to move up...... #07: Um hum (affirmative) #31: a high altitude.... #07: This is when I thought I was looking at, uh....someplace south of Moscow. I guess. #31: Okay. #07: Now, this was...I was having trouble with this. I remember being told, know, get rid of the clouds,, I could take a good look. I :emembeT seeing a river running diagonally from the northwest to the southeast, and there was another time I was aware of a...a lake somewhere. Let's see that..... that would be to the east. It gets kinda vague-in there. I don't know whether I succeeding in naming this, or...I kinds lose it there. #31: Okay. #07: I seem to be aware of..... #31: ....that's essentially it.... SG1A Approved For Release 2000/08/07` =CTA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 SG1A Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Next 1 Page(s) In Document Exempt Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/ : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Apprcf- F jeL*a 2000/08/1: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 wi t-f q ~0i&-e4' SI~eeD 6 lift/r- less 4"alt Got 1OW4 ti>cL" to 444 oree C-,t 1*4 `/wet De4e7~. Approved For Release 2000/08/0 IA- -007 00200530001-2 a4O0, Ox 1/t.G4 ~~?t 3C MET, L T " 54'014' 6 &It TN N SfIfl 4'' Mq rERI4 t. 0M ? h 3 l~ -eJ? ! ~'~ Usti j) A~- [/A4 gegAI p ~ulef Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 4AJO-rlle 40 GdyR`R Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 SG1 B Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Next 1 Page(s) In Document Exempt Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2 MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD 17 September 1980 SUBJECT: Session D-48 Targeting Data 1. (S/NOFORN) This was #07's first completed session against 8003d (OPSEC portion of Project 8003). A previous session (D-28) attempted on 5 September 1980, was aborted due to noise interference. Prior to that date, #07 had performed four sessions against 8003a(CC74, CC87, CCC139 CCC15), three sessions against 8003b (CCC98, CD40, CD42), and one session against 8003c (CD53) using diverse targeting methods (geo coordinates, sealed envelope). 2. (S/NOFORN) It must be noted that sub-Project 8003d is an otherwise unrelated OPSEC oriented aspect of 8003 directed against a commensurate piece of allied equipment, as opposed to the primary hostile equipment. It must also be noted that considerable time had elapsed since #07 had had any involvement whatsoever with this project, the last consummated session having occurred on 17 June 1980. #07 was unaware prior to this session of any contiguity/ relationship (however marginal) between this session and those in which #07 had had earlier invol ement. In fact, #07 was unaware of project analyst identity until just prior to the debriefing. 3. (S/NOFORN) Interviewer #66 had been involved in 22 of the preceding 23 sessions concerning Project 8003, was aware of the project analyst for this session, and was aware of the identity of the object targeted during the earlier D-28/D-29 dual session as a result of post-session conversations with the project analyst. Prior to this session, #66 was not informed of any data regarding this session's target other than that contained at TAB B, this report. 4. (S/NOFORN) At session start, #07 was provided a sealed envelope by #66, and was informed by #66 that the contents of the envelope consisted of a photo- graph of the actual target object. #07 was at no time allowed to open the envelope (which had been in a sealed condition since 5 September 1980) to observe the photografp, nor had #66 ever seen the contents of the target envelope. 5. (S/NOFORN) The session was monitored by the project analyst from a separate room of the facility. The analyst was cognizant of target identity, and was also aware of basic areas of interest regarding the object as a result of earlier professional association with OPSEC. The analyst was/is not aware of finite or detained data regarding actual specifications/construction/etc. During latter part of the session, the analyst provided considerable guidance/direction to the interviewer. These elements are recorded at TAB B, this report. KENNETH V. BELL Analyst CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH DTG: 05163OZ JUL 78 REVIEW: October 2000 Approved For Release 2000/08107- CIA-'RDP96-M4b NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS Approved For Release 2000/0 00200530001-2 #31: Okay. You wanna give that to me again #07? What you were just saying. #07: Oh. I was just looking at this drawing here, know, it looks like it'd pierced the outer metal skin, and that the... structure of the foam like layer has been altered and perhaps changed to something like a...a more powdery form which looks like, you know, just looking at this thing....... left brain, it looks like it'd probably be a weak point in the future .....that you could not impact the same area more than once and expect to have the same degree of resistance. #31: Okay. #07: That its, its effectiveness is spent in a particular area when it's impacted. #31: Okay. #07: Tha...that's just, I don't know.... #31: Fine. #07: It's just a feelin gI had there, just looking at this...uhhh.. I've drawn in a layer just below that, that I felt also stretched somewhat. It may be it's a stretchy material, but I didn't feel that it was. Uh... I felt it was more, um, more resistance. Its degree of resistance to stretch was greater than the first layer. #31: Okay. #07: I kinda get lost after this area, here. #31: Okay. Then, we should be space blanketing, and the final three layers which couldn't be separated. I believe that's all that's left. #07: Okay. The space blanket, where ...I, I don't know, the space blanket could be right adjacent to this second stretchy layer.... #31: Um hum. (Affirmative) #07: ...or it could be after another layer in there, down in the... down in the three layers somewhere. #31: Okay. Fine. Why don't you just...... #07: And, I know that's contradictory, 'cause, if..... #31: No. Approved For Relea 6-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08107 a 1 X000200530001-2 #07:'s down in there.....that makes four layers. #31: No. I understand. #07: But, I...I just can' t ...that's the best I can do. #31: Why don't you just put a dotted line across there, and label it remaining layers, uh..... #07: Um hum.. #31: Okay. Sketch four is our result of impact. #07: I wish I'd done that in the vertical... the other angle there, and, I'da had more writing space on each side. It's okay. #31: No. That's fine.... #07: No problem? #31: That's fine. Okay. Um...overall thickness... #07: I think I said about... somewhere I put my hand on it, and I could feel one edge with my thumb and my middle finger was feelng the other side. I know I said about three inches. Didn't I? #31: Um hum (affirmative). You said three to four inches. #07: Well, I was feeling it, but..... #31: Um... You said it was like it was about two telephone directories. I'm gonna ask..... #07: It was kinda like closing your eyes, and feeling something, and you don't know how far you've got your hand squeezed together. But, you can feel the edges between your thumb and your finger. #31: Okay. #07: So, I don't know. #31: How much distance is there between there? #07: What is that, five inches? #31: Okay. #07: But, somewhere in there I said something about three. Approved For Releaf P96-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/0~ 8R000200530001-2 #31: In looking at his hand in the proper position, he estimates five inches thick. Uh...Okay. Now, there's a very interesting aspect of this session, right now, which occurred. Uh...I, I the analyst opted to drive the session in a certain manner, at this time. I directed number 66 to have you expand your consciousness, and to search for anything which could fully penetrate the sandwich. Uh, now, I'm making admin notes here on the transcript. #07: What was presented..... #31: Now, at this time..... #07: me was, I believe, defeat. I believe the word defeat was used. #31: Okay. But, these were my directions. this time um... I informed 66 that this would probably bring you off target, but that it would be the last area of questioning in any case. Uhh. Number 66 tasked you then to go ahead, and do those things.... To, uh, expand your awareness of anything which could defeat or penetrate the sandwich, I believe is the terminology he used. Okay, and after he had given you that tasking, I interjected once again into the...into number 66 to allow you to flow wherever you needed to do this. Now, for your refresh...... for refreshing your memory, I will read from my notes. The trouble with taffy. Shaped charge wouldn't do it. #07: Ohl That's explosive shaped charge, you know. It blows inward, okay. #31: Get through with high density, high density, small cross-section. So, inertia, inertia, tremendous heat energy on a small area. Device cannot be explosive, extremely dense, have mass concentra- ted, density increases with deceleration, effect... effect of extreme escalation of density is dissipated energy. #07: I said that? #31: You said that. I don't know....this was spontaneous "dump" of verbage, is what it is..... #07: Just, just a fast "dump." #31: That's fine. It was very fast, and I want to spend some time .... you to spend some time here reviewing that "dump", and see if you can.....put "dump" in quotation marks, please, reviewing this data "dump" and attempting, possibly, to provide some more clarification of that. #07: Well, I don't even understand it. All I, all I got was, uh..... Approved For Release 2000/08#0 R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200010810 .: = 0788R000200530001-2 #31: Now, remember this is gisting. I have...gisted the dialogue at this point, because I did not have enough time to write it down verbatim. Now, that .... your actual words may be more clear. This contains only the essence of what you were saying at that moment. #07: I remember having a very, very strong excited feeling about....... Yeah, you could, you could do it this way, and I thought...... I likened it to taking your fist and hitting something, and backing off, and just taking one finger and striking real hard, and real fast, and going right through it, and then when I was looking at that I saw...... I saw someone with a (laugh) someone with a swab handle, with the swab still on it, just back off, and just ram it right through something that they couldn't, couldn't bust through. #31: Okay. Let me ask you. your definition of "swab handle." What do you mean? #07: A mop handle. #31: Okay. All right. #07: Ohl Okay, okay, a mop handle. #31: Okay. #07: And, it's someone with a two-handed thing, and they..... visualize 'em,you know, trying like trying to beat through a door or something, and they....picked up this...mop handle, and put it a ram..... #31: Um hum (affirmative). #07: ...the old fashioned ram. #31: Um hum (affirmative). #07: And... #31: You likened it to trying to beat your...beat your way out of a marshmallow room or something like that, at one point in time. #07: Oh! I guess I was trying to see how you defeat this stuff, and because of its given moving away from impact, and absorbing the energy, I.... Yeah, I remember feeling like it beating a big marshmallow, and...not getting out of it. But, I felt that, uh, a very small... and I said blunt ...mop handle with extremely high velocity, should go right through. But, I remember feeling that the device could not be explosive or it'd blow up before it got through. #31: Okay. Approved For Release 20 - 7888000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200 ~P*PmW 6000 000200530001-2 #07: And- I remember asking myself, well, what good is the thing if it don't blow up inside or the other side. ust punch a hole in it. .....You know. I, I got lost there. I don't know what happened. Maybe, someone asked me a question or something. I don't know. ?#31: Okay. Now, let's, um, all right, this was, um... #07: But, I remember playing with, uh, this feelings of heat and melting, and..... things. #31: Okay. This is all a continuous portion, now. This is a sub- section of the...of the session. So, let me go on through the notes, okay. You were asked .... in response to this....verbage... spontaneous verbage earlier...does this device exist now? And, the session was moving extremely rapidly at this time, and all I have written down from you is...same ...same...something. Then, you were directed to go through space and search for the device. Does it exist now? And, your comment was research is being conducted. Feeling of...people who made the sandwich also aware of countermeasures. They are supporting the people working on the countermeasures. #07: Hum. #31: Okay? #07: Yeah. Okay. #31: Do you have any clarifying words for that or..... #07: No. In my mind now, I see people working hand-in-hand trying to build the resistance, working with the people, trying to overcome it ..... #31: Um hum (affirmative) #07: ...and sharing data. Yeah. Sharing data... But, God, why would you want to defeat it..... #31: Okay. #07: ...unless, you knew somebody else had it,....that the....I....I'm ...getting into logic now. #31: No, let's not logic. #07: I'm getting lost. #31: Okay. I want to make an admin note here........ #07: Yeah. I'm getting lost. Approved For Release 2000/0 / 7. : -kA-RDP96-a-00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 200530001-2 #31: .....for the sake of the transcript. At this point in time, uh..... the remote viewer used the term "our" in relation to the sandwich people supporting the countermeasures people. All right? #07: Um hum. (affirmative) #31: Now, later on the...also, admin note continued, later on this point was re-clarified, but at this point, a review of the transcript should reveal that the term "our" possessive plural, was used in referring to the countermeasures. All right. At.... continuing on, then, you were again directed to expand your awareness, and, uh....... #07: We're towards the end of the tape, here. We're going to eject here. #31: (Mumble) Okay. Let's go ahead. We'll change it now. (Admin Note: tape change) #07: Okay. It's going again. #31: Ummm. All right. Uh, you were asked...I guess we can go down here, through... there was a little bit of dialogue here, at this point in the session. You were asked, "Whose sandwich is this?" And, you said three different factions: four different peoples, and....again, you used the term peoples, as in social groups, peoples, actively.... actively, but three pretty good, but slightly different. Okay? #07: Oh. Okay. I remember that. I remember that. #31: Your...... #07: I can explain that. #31: Okay ..... okay, and, uh...go ahead, explain that. I, you..... #31: We had a chance later on in the session to (mumble)... #07: Yeah. Later on I, I think this, this came out. I..... #31: (Mumble) clarify...... #07: I...I wasn't this stage I wasn't sure. All I could see was, uh....four different labs working at this, and I could see that three....for some reason seemed to be having some success. #31: Um hum (affirmative) #07: And, it was three diff..uh..four different labs...four different attempts, and three had great similarity, and seemed to be having some success or perhaps had achieved success. I don't know. But, I felt that one wasn't doing too well, and I think Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200530001-2 Approved For Release 2 00788R000200530001-2 #07: ...I later came on, and I thought ...I thought these.. .four represented, uh, the US, England, France, and Soviet Russia, and I felt that France was not doing as well. I think that's the way it came out. #31: Um hum (affirmative) Okay. You were asked, "Who owns the sandwich?" "Whose sandwich is this?" #07: Um hum. #31: Okay. #07: One of the four.... #31: You said U-S. #07: Hum. #31: You didn't say "us," you said U-S. Ours, and then you referred back earlier in the session..I'd said "our." #07: Um hum. #31: You said, "Who owns the broomstick?" #07: Um hum. #31: Okay. #07: Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah!` I know..... #31: What did you say then. Do you recall your..... #07: I said the S-Soviet Union had the broomstick. I guess. I don't know. I'm,right now, what I'm seeing now is I'm going up to of feet, and I'm looking at geography. Yes. I know, but.... #07: .....for some reason, I guess I'm lost. #31: I'm interested in your words here, because it is a very difficult part of the session, because you were really working. (Laugh) #31: Okay. Umm. You said, "We do, but someone else, and it's not a secret." Okay. "It's not a secret." Do you recall those words? #07: Uh uh (negative) Approved For Release 2 00788R000200530001-2 Approved For Release 200 88R000200530001-2 #31: Okay and, you were talking about this long broomstick. #07: I think this be about the time I was getting so tired. #31: Okay. (Mumble) I'm going through... Now, this...long broomstick situation... words which you used later on in the session, which I take is the same thing as the mop handle idea. #31: You had spontaneous imagery of.a hanging plate on something apparently like a firing range...... #07: Oh yeah! Yeah. I'd forgotten about that #31: and, the broomstick..... #07: Just went straight through like it was greased. #31: ...projectile type thing being fired at the plate, or... #07: Um hum (affirmative) #31: ...presumably, being propelled at the plate. I...firing, I don't know. Uh, and, there was a peculiar, different, recognizably different type activity upon impact associated with the broomstick; and, if you would review that imagery now, and would explain to..... and explain once again, putting it together. #07: I'm trying to get back, uh..... #31: This is where you used words such as "double kick," "kick in the..." #07: Oh, yeah! Okay. I...I thought, and I don't know whether I said it or not, but,. I thought this thing was a...I thought this thing had a...was accelerated to speed... perhaps by rocket or...projectile of some type...and, on impact, an explosion was set off that give it an extra kick. It started accelerating again. I don't know if that's feasible or not. But, that's what I saw. I saw the thing hit, and then it...something in the tail of it blasted, and the thing speeded even faster .... went right on through. #31: Okay. Approved For Release 20 DP96-007888000200530001-2