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August 3, 2004
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Approved For Release 2004/08/25 :J! -0788R000500930001-5 SG1A SG1A SG1A SG1A SG1A sort of discussing the project S G1 -1 F 0 and we had a little debrief on that. And, we A were talking about what you all may come up with for today. made the comment that, and what I think is probably logical as well as a psychical imput that there. was some discussion as to what photograph, what project, one thing or another, and he got tuned in on another one, other than this one. So, we had an interesting game that we can't use at this point. All right ..why don't you handle the photograph and look at it, an we'll work on the, we'll use the coordi- nates to reinforce your impressions you get from that. That building is referred to as and we are interested in We would like to get a description of the room as you enter the room, and we want to concentrate on the mission of that room. In other words, you can describe what's specifically going on now, but also as I discussed with you that day, what the purpose and overall purpose and function of that room is. SG1A #6.5: This is a picture of the building. This building that we are interested in, I have a geographic coordinate. I will give you a building number and I will give you a room in that building. It's that room only that we are interested in. The geographic coordinate is: SG1A 1100: All right. Let me say for the record, last nicht up. ware #99: Okay. First thing that I get //00 is a very heavy, weary high tension feeling almost to the point of.....high tension feeling of if people were afraid to,to breath. Now, I'm starting that way instead of the questions that you asked ..//00 , because of the feeling that I'm picking up within the room itself as we're going in. The feeling here is... I keep would I put it...things opened...there were sketches.. .and on these sketches things were being moved or plotted. In other words, certain things had to be ....I'm not saying the whole room, I'm merely saying that CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, DAMI-ISH 5 & REVIEW ON: a~~a~599~~ Approved For Release IA 9F-O0T8SRA0 -R 6 TWO OF TWO COPIES #99: .....this is the element here I'm seeing some pieces of paper or something, and they are like plots or doing lines or something to this affect on it. Now, the tension is high. SG1A SG1A Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET #00: Okay, let's go from broad to small. The building is SG1A building. What is the relation ... what is the building..... is the building a recognized government installation; is it a private building? What is the status of the building? Just sort of set aside the particular room, right now. and we are particularly interested in in the #99: Let me put it this way from the psychic imput that it is not fully recognized as a government building. By fully recognized meaning people around, you wouldn't look at it being singled this is a government building in a sense of government work, government project, government this, this and this. #00: Is the answer quite simply it has a dual function. It's commercial, and then they're government lease in it. #99: I would put it in the second one. #00: Does the government own the building, or is it a private building in which some space is leased by the government? PAUSE 1199: I would have to say the space is leased. #00: Now, I don't want to mislead you. #99: No, no, no. It's just something that when you asked the question it said leased. #00: Okay. But, the space may or may not be leased by the Now, let's go down and focus specifically on The occupants of this room, are these U.S. Gover.,nment personnel, people or not? SG1A #99: They're not. #00: They're not U.S. Government personnel? #99: No, not the way I can see it. #00: All right. Are these people civilians in the classical sense of the word. That is, they're in a business, U.S. citizens or a foreign connection with the activity in A non-U.S. interest. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : I 88R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- t-t AW a 8R000500930001-5 #99: Let me put it this way #00 to your question which seems to superimpose little of what you're asking about. There seems to be someone involved with the Government there (mumble) ......but the people are American people in the building, but I cannot tell you at this point whether these people are for or against what we are doing in the Government. ##00: Okay. Let's don't worry about that yet. Let's go back to the ...... I want you to try and enter the room #99, and you may need to go to some altered state at this point, because I want to try to get a description of the room. Let me ask you is the photograph enough or me repeating the latitude, longitude? #99: The latitude, longitude means very little to me. The photograph is the most important thing. The latitude, longitude would only have an importance to me if I was to put a setting of the building, which I do not need, into the ......... Into the room...... I'm going to this room. A door has no glass, from what I can see...... #00: All right. Are you outside the room now? Let's go in the hallway. There must be an entranceway. #99: All right. I'm, I'm......... I almost seem to come from where I'm standing at a block which means that I can see the end of a hallway. I'm here, I'm coming in front of a doorway. It does not appear to have glass, or if there is glass, you cannot see through it. I turn the knob and I walk the door ......... Inside this room.. ... I see something like partitions at first or some cubicles #00: Are these what we can call standard office.... #99: No. It's different than an office. I've seen cubicles of offices ....... that way.... I'm walking in and there's a large space ......there's a desk. Wait a minute. Field it! It's not that easy to go into that room. #00: IV hat's the difficulty? #99: The difficulty is that you need an identification. #00: What is identification? Can you see someone wearing a badge or a tag or something?. Give us a description of it. Either color or shape or size. ##99: Wearing identification ...... the word... identification meaning that the person ....... if I were to go in I would not be admitted because I was not known to the people within the room. #00: And at where is the check point for this? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 :3CIA- 08000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- 3R000500930001-5 #99: Right at the entrance. There's another thing that's bothering me. The building looks ....the building to me is a lot of disguise. It's like a double edged sword. SG1A #99: I could go into this building, one of the rooms, and I could go in and say I'm coming in for something ...... photography, let's say, just an example, I'm not. saying it's in the building.... but hidden within this building is more than just this's one of them, but it's more than one of T1 ese rooms as I'm describing where there's high tension. I'm just trying to put this whole element in Now, here I am entering in. I see a space. I need something for them or I have to be ident:ified...I have to be identified. #00: All right. Let. me ask some specific questions about this process #99. Picture someone who is going to get proper entry in there. Does he or she show a pass? Is the,pass.?, taken from them and inserted in something or exchanged for another pass? What is the process for getting in. The proper process. #99: Let me put it this way. The person is carrying nothing on him to show. The person going in either gets it from his wallet or gets it from somewhere....sshows something, shows him a looks like a small. card of some kind. Then, the person will take you from that point in.... Passing the disguise front that you have. #00: Well, now, you call it a disguise. Is it necessarily a disguise. Why not just a security entranceway. That does not. seem to be an exceptional. If it's a secure facility where authorized people are allowed in, there's a checkpoint where a receptionist either recognizes you or doesn't, and requires identification. #99: All right. Disguise may be the wrong word #00...... #00: Well, maybe it's the right word, but I'm............. #99: You could-be right. I'm only ...... as you know as we work together...I can only give you the impressions as I can understand them. #00: Okay. You can't give me any details of the check process of getting in at this time? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #99: The check process....the person walking in, I only see someone, and it's not the one at the desk, is a person there that I saw standing in this space as if they were waiting for the person and the person shows him his identification. The person escorts him. #00: Okay. Where do they go out of this check point. I want to go deeper into Is there another doorway that they go in? Give me some descriptions, please. #99: What I want to work with is the length of the #00: #99: It's...the way that it'slaid.' out, it's not a small oom, but it's a long room. #00: Overall what is the ratio of rit(phonetic) to length? Is it a square room or is it a rectangular room? #99: It's square. #00: My question was about the overall dimensions, not including the partitions in there. If all the partitions were removed, when they were setting up the room, it was more square than rectangular. #99: Yes, it was more square. #00: About how many people in the room right now #99? Are we working in the present? #99: If you are asking me right here 8:46, I would have to say I have my doubts that it's 8:46. The work, everything that I'm seeing is at 8:46 this morning. All I can say is that I would give you, that it's riot a small operation, and that not all the people come in at the same time to the building. #99: It's not shift work, but it's certainly an overturn depending an what's happening in the room. #00: Well, is there a normal number of people there, and then they are augmented, or people come in for a particular........... #99: There's a working crew. I'm trying to say. That's a poor description of what #00: Okay. A regular office cadre. What is that number? SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : a, TWE I 788R000500930001-5 #99: It can vary. I would say no less than six......six to ten. #00: Okay, but, is it your sense that at times there are more than that many? #00: Why, why would more people show up? #99: Again, I'm getting these plans or these sketches ...but the sketches are fragmented and it appears that different people are one knows the whole sketch.... or knows the whole layout. #00: Is the reason they don't is because some work is done in one cubicle out sight of the others? Is this why they don't know? There are physical barriers? #99: No, it's not dealing with physical barriers. It's dealing with the information. #00: My question was in response that everyone doesn't know what's going on. I was wondering practically how you keep information from being shared. Formerly, you said that there were cubicles, and I assumed that that meant that if I was in cubicle A and you were in cubicle B I couldn't see what you were doing. Therefore, I wouldn't know what you were doing unless I went in there. Is that how they keep information from being shared? #99: No. Not just that. There's something else. #00: What is the something else? PAUSE #99: I don't know if it's the answer to your question directly, but, I'm going to have to come back. There appears to be something like monitors, and I don't know whether it's a photograph monitor or a knowledge monitor of information. #00: Is it a monitor in a electronic sense or are there human monitors? Is there television coverage scanning like we see in banks for security? Is that what you mean by monitors? #99: All right. The picture that comes to me, I can only see the monitor or the square box, but: I can't see what is on it. ##00: A square box as in a television screen? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96-0 8R000500930001-5 r C%R VA a 1/99: Like a television screen .... or you know, if you were pressing keys and something would come out on it. Either it's a picture or it's writing. I'm riot close enough to see, and there seems to be some of this in this room. #00: Okay. Well, let's come back to that. I want to go back to your first psychic impressions now..... I have a question on that. You said in overview when you first handled the photograph that there was a heavy feeling of high tension, and you said the phrase "afraid to breath," When you said, "afraid to breath," did you mean that in a literal sense that there might be some hazard in inhalation or in a symbolic sense? #99: In a symbolic sense. Not that the building or anything else was ..... SG1A #99: No, no. That's not it. Let's, for example, here's a meeting is called and heavy tension, and heavy stress, and whether this is going to go through or how are we going to handle this or the information coming in, and if there was a slip or something to this affect. It's only an example of how I can explain the tension. #00: All right. Let's talk about that. That could describe a number of processes. It even could be an academic situation. It could be a business where people are making corporate decisions on investments of hiring and firing. //99: No, no. #00: All right. You don't like those? What do you think is the cause for the feeling of tension? 1199: The feeling of tension is information other than academic or any decision like business, and it has to deal with decisions that have to be made which have greater value than just within that office within that building or any- thing else around. #00: All right. I can accept that. But, generally, what is the subject, and specifically, what is the subject? #99: There is information being fed into this office which is of great importance or value, which I would believe quite strongly .....either it's only information that is brought there then transferred somewhere else which appears more of information coming in and which is used within the compound of their work. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CI DR MWJ8R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : Cl k__ 11 8R000500930001-5 #00: Okay. Information about what? Give me a subject. #99: The subject of information deals with ------ I want to try and use the right words here ................ Let's say that will I put it.....see, if you're asking me specific, and I believe that...there is not one specific piece of knowledge that it deals with. Let me give you an example. Let's say that a person was defecting or that we were going to explode an atom bomb or that something happened in China... something like this. It's that kind of information. It's not regular information that I'm giving you. I'm only giving you the sense of the information. This is what I'm trying to give you. #00: Let me rephrase the question. Is it your impression that the subject matter is more varied than specific. That is to say they don't deal with maritime information exclusively. #00: They don't deal with scientific information exclusively. But, the information they deal with is varied. #00: So, what is the significance of that? #99: My significance is this, and I'm going to lay it on the line as I see it. I am wondering from my tension, whether there is not part of....... again, I have to go back to a double- edged sword here .... part. of it is a front and part of it is information that they receive.. .1 can only use like a double agent: #00: Well, what is a double agent to you? #99: Double agent meaning ...... I would say I'm working for the United States Government, but at the same time I'm working for someone else. #00: Okay. Is that a benign situation or is that essentially a legal situation potentially harmful to the United States? By that I mean...working against the United States Government..... Is that the impression that you're getting? Is that going on in this room? 1199: If you're asking me as a whole if the room is working against the United States, I would say no. I will keep with no. #00: Is it a research firm? Is research going on? #99: There's research going's more than one subject. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-F 87000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R it MIT 0500930001-5 #99: It's more than research. It's something else that goes with research. It's information that's coming in that is needed which is given, but at the same time, I'm not...., I don't know whether the people know what I'm trying to feel, but certain people in there are dangerous what's going on within the room. #00: Okay. That's a little complicated, and we'll have to come back to that. I'm trying to pin down why the feeling of high tension in there ...why the stress and symbolically it's an area where you're almost afraid to breath for some reason. Is it because of the subject matter or because people know of the importance of what they're doing or feel the importance of what they're doing? #99: It's both on the subject matter and the people. I'm not saying all of the people ...some of the people. #00: Okay. Is this correct...that there's tension.... feeling of high tension is not shared by everyone, but only some of the workers? 1#00: So, you picked this up from some. Did you pick it up from only one of the workers? #99: No. It's the atmosphere within) the room. #00: Okay. An atmosphere that's not shared by all the people in there? #99: By all the people ..... #00: Now, this is important #99, because you may have focused in on.... on a dominant feeling or emotion, but now do you want to back away from that a little bit, and say that is not generally shared by everybody? #99: When I'm saying not generally shared by everybody #00, I'm merely meaning that certain people are not all in on what the information is that is being fed in here.. .what is taking place in here. #00: Well, you said that before... there's some compartmentation in there. Well, who are the people who feel this heavy tension, this stress? Are they the ones that know more about the process or the whole thing? Are they the managers? Why would some feel this and some not? Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD U 00500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CI i ?L8R000500930001-5 U' ...... #99: It depends on how much of the information is given to the person. The way that I can explain it is this: Let's say certain things happen during the day or something would take place, and a number of the people come in. Let's say they're given what has happened...let's say Asia, bla, bla, bla, bla, You know, you have all this information here. Only these people I feel would be responsible with the high tension. In other words, they're the core. #00: Okay. Are we talking about supervisors? #99: I'm not talking about supervisors. I'm talking about people more than just supervisors. I'm talking about people who have to handle information. #00: Well then, if it's crisis oriented... let's say a crisis in Cuba and information comes in only a few of the six to 10 people would concentrate on that problem. #00: Okay. Is this something that you are agreeing with me or am I agreeing with you? #99: No, no, no, no. You are agreeing with me as putting it more clearly know the feeling. Remember the first thing was not words, was feeling, and those first feelings become an important factor in recreating recreate...... #00: Okay. Well, let's try to get specific. Give me a...... something that has recently passed or something they're working on today that may be a candidate for this sort or stressful situation. What sort of subject matter can you focus on? What topic? What country? #99: I'm going to have to ask a question. This photograph taken at this time, was the building complete or incomplete? It's important. #6.5: I really don't know the answer to that question. #00: Okay. Why did you bring the question up? We don't know the answer to the question but let's talk about it. #99: In some way some information from that room is leaking out, and it frightens me. f#00: Okay. You said that the information is leaking out of the room. But, is that benign in that it's not a leak, except that as might be suspected whatever is analyzed or researched or determined in that is then communicated or transmitted somewhere else. Is that the type of thing that you're talking about or is it something else? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 10 S Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : C 0 88R000500930001-5 SHRE #00: That would be an authorized communication or transmission. #99: It's not authorized. ##00: Okay. You're talking about an unauthorized. ##99: Unauthorized, as if it was bugged, but it doesn't sound right. #00: Well, what does that have to do with the completion or incompletion of the building? What's the link there? #99: The link here is that someone knew about this room or what was going to take place in this room. #00: During the construction period? #99: During the construction period. #00: And it what? ##99: And, it appears that something took place in which infor- mation can be released, and I don't know how. ##00: Well, let's be very practical. If you're going to place a very sophisticated monitoring device, it would appear that one of the better times to do it is during the construction phase. Now, that's rational. Psychicall, is that what happened? #99: Let me put it this way, the feeling at this point is that I have to say some kind of information or a way of getting information was built in or that there is something built in. I cannot tell you how. All of these are feelings again. 1100: Okay. This can be important now, so let's perceive this a little bit. Who was responsible for this? And, I would like to have your first answer be the placement of a device that could monitor that what was going to go on in Was the...let's say divided in two oamps...friendly to the United States, or potentially, not friendly to the United SG1A States. Of those choices, who do you think was responsible for this. #99: All right. It's American, but not friendly to United States #00: Okay. Not friendly to the United States, but Americans who were responsible for this placement. Are they controlled Americans? That is controlled by a foreign country. " SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET #99: I wouldn't say that they were controlled by a foreign country, but certainly have relationship to a foreign country. #00: Okay. Maybe we're having simantic problem. When I say control, perhaps I was being somewhat technical. Controlled in the sense that they are paid in the service of any other country other than United States. That is they're actions in this case were controlled. They were hired, paid to do that. #99: If you say paid, the answer is yes. #00: That's what I meant when I said controlled. That they were hired for a specific task. #99: Well, you see, this is so disjointed in my mind. We're talking about one room in here, but the density of the whole building in other areas ...... I'm going to just stick with the room that he's asking because I could be picking up certain things from other areas. #00: Yes. Let's try the shield against that. That will give us a feel (phonetic). Let me ask a question about the success about this monitoring device. Is it functioning? Has it been functioning as it was designed? Is the leaking of information in fact leaking.... people able of monitoring in some respect of what goes on in~ SG1A #99: There's some kind of monitoring, but I don't know which way. #00: Well, we have two cases of monitoring. The first time you brought up...was someone in front of a square box, that may or may not have been a television. I assume that that was an internal monitoring system, for security. Is it possible that square box of monitoring is associated with this device that was installed during construction? #99: I could not say. #99: The thing here is that the importance of these people here in this room and the work that's taking place certainly has a great affect, and that something is going wrong in the room with thepeople that's jeopardizing what's going on in the room. #00: All right. Let me put that in my words. Whatever the room is dedicated to do, whatever their mission is they are doing it, but, in fact, something else is going on that diminishes the affect of their work. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA--?,QQ,_8?R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET #99: More than diminishes the affect here. It's how does somebody know? #00: Well is this this leakage you're talking about? Otherwise the security of this room has been breached, so whatever they are doing it is not as affective if the breach had not taken place. Well, let's go back to the function of the room. Put aside the potential of the breach of the security of the room. Are the people in the room doing things for the United States Government. That is, have they been hired to do research .,...and the subject matter, while varied as far as things they arc discussing, is intended primarily to be for the benefit of the US Government, and the use of the Government? #99: The answer would be yes. #00: Okay. Then, is this a research firm...that is, hired to do (had to turn the tape over) (Reverse side starts thus:) #99: I don't know how to put it, and why it is coming, and that has happened in the lab before, and I have to explain it. 1100: Okay. #99: I'm on the line...a direction line.. all 'rigfit. like I'm working.....and then something crosses my, we're going into...what we're saying, government.... and yet, on the other side of the coin ...and it's not an error, it's just that I don't know how to interpret it....because of what's going there is that ...I'm involved in a double thing here. I'm involved with what appears to be American Government, and yet it is not, and yet it is. Does that make sense? In other words, I don't know how to put it into words. #00: Okay. That's a little confusing to me, but let's talk about it. #99: Here's this building, and everything seems to be American Government and so forth, but yet we're finding people from another country infiltrating this, and really what they're doing is wondering what the people from the other country are doing, yet it looks like Arnerican.....I'm trying to give you a sense of what I'm trying to put here. #00: Well, I need a base. I need a base in order to even come up with rational questions. And, the base I'm trying to get is...let's set aside what is...going on that is goofy about the whole thing, but the mission of the room is know to some- one...what the nominal mission...what the responsible is. Now, is that controlled, a private or commercial enterprise, or is that a government enterprise? I guess I should put Approved For leflY@ 0081YSPd 1LtD 8-01)78BRb0 09 r5are they U.S. Government employees"'" .". Government employees? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET #99: The strongest that comes into the place is . . . I'm going to have to rephrase it. If you're asking me, "Do I see Army people, Navy people, Air Force people?" the answer is no. That's where I give you . for government. . . #00: Okay, but. . you know. #99: But if you're asking me . . . There are more #00: There are more civilians than military personnel in the US Government. #00: Okay. #99: If you're asking me, are they government people that would have into. . . had any clearance, anything of that sort, I would have to say yes. #00: Okay, there's a great potential for confusion here. #99: All right. Let's clear it. SG1A #00: So let's go back. Are the nomina #99: #00: I Paid. Either civilian or military. #00: #99: #00: say no. Have to say no. I don't know why. Okay. Are they. . . And I'll point out the . . the potential for. . confusion here. Are they hired by a . . a commercial, that is a company, a corporation? #99: Theansv&,r is here . . . would be, yes. 14 #00: Okay. Now the potential for confusion is that if the company is doing government work, they would be. . . they would be ceritified by the government and have a security clearance if its classified work. So, you know, are Approved For Relgasf 2004/08/2~utClA- P9~- 8li0 693 b~-5g?ver nrnent emp_ oyees. That mear ey . . . an employees Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD ;, - investigation has been conducted on them and they are certified to to handle a certain level of security. That would give them some sort of imprint of government . . a US security clearance, but it doesn't . . . #99: Let me put it in another way. Let's say that there is a contract where the government gives their money to this . . . what is going on. . from which you would be paid. How would you term that? #00: That's the other. . the other area of confusion, though. Which is very common in the research industry. . . where it is a private enterprise who's funding comes in many cases almost exclusive from the US government, from the government contract. Is that the sort of thing.. that's going on there? #99: Yeah. Well, this . . this seems to be more what I'm . . I'm leading towards. #00: All right. Now is . . do they have . . . let's just follow that. Let's assume right now. . as a function theory that what goes on there is part of, at least, a research firm. And that they have a government contract. In the govern- ment, who is their. . their sponsor. Is it a . . . an Army, an Air Force, a Navy. . a Depart- ment of Defense Agency, Central Intelligence Agency. . . you know, who pays the bill. You know, who . . who has the contract right now that is keeping them working? I mean who has provided the contract? #99: Well, the strongest word is Defense and I was just . . . #00: Okay, but that. . you know, that could be. the Department of Defense as a corporate entity . . you know can let contracts. But Defense also can cover. . all the others except the CIA that I mentioned, you know. Defense could cover the Air Force, the Army or the Navy. Can you be more specific? Is it one of the military services, like the Army, Navy, Air Force? SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #99: I would say, yes. #00: It's one of them? SECRET #99: It's one of them and I think. . . . . It's certainly not. . . . Navy is not strong. #00: Okay. #99: But something concerning Navy. I would have to put it - Army Defense. #00: Okay. Then what you're feeling now is that the Army is the. . the con. . the agency providing the funds for what is going on in the room. Is this psychic or rational? #99: That's psychic. Psychic. #00: Okay. The reason I asked is because. #99: Yeah, I asked that question because of #6.5 over here and I had to rephrase it in my own mind. That's why the word Defense. I have to go with Army. . . primarily that the others don't fit. . into the picture but it does not mean that they could not be involved in it. And that's what I want to make known. #00: Okay. Well, let's leave that sort of soft. But nevertheless that's a point where I want to depart from. Right now, we have a situation with the case you've built. . that there is a Defense agency, probably the Army, that is funding the activity of that office and that you feel that in addition to what goes on in the office in response to this . . there is a leakage of the information that is immical to the. . the the US Army or to the government. Is that correct? #99: Yes. #00: All right. Who is responsible for this leak- age, that is, is it a foreign country versus some internal competition in United States. I think we had settled that it was a foreign controlled activity that had sponsored the placement of a potential monitoring device. What country is that #99? I've asked you that question before, but this is rather important. Now don't be surprised. . . I mean don't reject anything that comes to your mind. . because foreign country doesn't mean. . In the sense Approved For Release 2004/08/25: C1&RDP 1500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET that I'm asking the question, a . . acknowledge an.tagnostic. Don't think the Soviet Union . . . #99: No, the Soviet Union is completely out and China is completely out. #00: All right. I mean, open it up to all foreign countries. Now can you . . can you. come up with any . . . I don't want to give you the shopping list. . foreign countries. #99: No, I don't want a shopping list. Primarily is that I'm taking it out of Russia, I'm taking it out of China. #00: Why did you reject them? They just simply. . #99: It said: This is not China. This is not Russia. #00: Okay. That's important. Do you have any other rejections? #99: And it's not Cuba. #00: All right. #99: And I don't have anything in Central America. #00: All right. #00: Now there are whole lists of other countries that are associated with the Soviet Union. The so-called Warsaw Pact countries. Is it one of these countries? #99: You will have to explain to me about Warsaw because I'm not familiar geographically. #00: Okay. Okay. The. . This is the political, economic and military alliance of the Soviet Union. That includes the Eastern European countries. Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria -- these are the Warsaw Pact countries. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 00930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #00: You don't like any o ose? #99: I have to say that I'm not saying either that it's not Russia or China that some of the information could not be fed. All right. #00: All right. #99: I just wanted to make that. . that's it. But it's not these countries which I'm seeing . . you know, directly . . I can't say, Hey somebody from Russia. . . it's a Russian spy or something, I cannot say that. . It doesn't.. ring that way. Or that the person is bringing in the information and bringing it directly to . . you know directing it to Russia itself. #00: Well. okay. But we had. . earlier in the session #99, we had a . . a foreign element. #00: . . that was in some way responsible for the implantation or the . . or the. . the placement of a monitoring device. Now, I'm trying to identify that. . that country. But let me ask another question. Is more than one country monitoring this. . this device? That is, whomever put it in, let's say it was . . and I don't mean to pick on Canada, but let's say it was Canada just for an example. Put it in. Is Canada monitoring this and is also someone else monitoring it? More than one country? #99: Not more than one country is monitoring, but more than one country is receiving certain information that's coming out of that room. #00: Yeah okay. But that's an entirely different #99: Yeah. I'm just . . I'm only throwing out psychically. . . so that. . . #00: Your feeling is that. . that one country is monitoring this. #99: Let me put it this way #00, I'm gonna have to say it differently. #00: All right. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 9. G I R 0500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96-00 aiFAQ 30001-5 #99: Whoever's getting the nformation. , is not in a foreign country. All right. It's. . . The information is here. . and then transferred. And that's what I'm trying to follow. Where is that information going? #00: Follow it. #99: And it's saying, not Russia, and its not China and its not Cuba and its not Central America and its not . . . Brazil. . its not. . . . it appears to be more in the countries like from the Middle East on into the African countries. That seemed to be the . . . but I don't. . It doesn't. . . As I say, I keep saying it doesn't make sense. #00: Well, don't worry about it making sense. You know. I realize its stupid of me to tell you not to worry but that's not important whether it makes sense or not. Just let the thing come out #99. SG1A #99: Yeah, you know, in other words if I was to go with it I would be going that direction. Okay. #00: All right. Do you have a sense when this building was built? And. let's go into time frames. Does appear to be less than five years old, or between five and ten, or ten and fifteen? #00: Or even more preferably, can you give me a year in which it was. . you know, it was probably several years in building, but when was it completed. When do you think people started moving in? PAUSE #99: My contention is that its . . . . . late 70's. #00: Late 70's. Okay. #99: You know. I don't know why, this says late 70's but. . . You said it was construction and I'm not asking the reason why. I don't know. Late 70's or . . . . I tried to use 75, but 75 doesn't ring anything into me. Its . . . #00: All right, late 70's. 1.9 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 00930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 500930001-5 SG1A SG1A #99: You know, I have to go into. . . after 75. And it could be that they've just moved into this whole building within the last couple of years. Maybe a year. #00: Well, of course, the building's construction and then. . the occupancy are two different things. Unless the building is completely dedicated to one . . . one company or to one government agency, there would be a change of occupancy. But its significant that you had a feeling #99, that someone knew of the intended use of . . of that suite or that And, therefore, may have arranged or are there other . . arrangements? #99: Well, this is what I was trying to tell. you earlier. That there seemed to be something in this building of a monitoring. . . you, know, not just this room. But I don't know. . I can't put . . . I can't put it together. #00: Okay, but are we confusing;the building may have a security monitor that is one of the services that's provided by the tenants is building security. And there is a security force that watches out for fire and theft. #99: No. Its not that. Its information that comes to the ear. SG1A #00: Okay so #99: And transferrable information. #00: Okay, now. All right, let's just forget about the classical building security then. So you are talking or thinking about a monitor that surreptitiously gains information from I I Do they also gain information from falls in that building? #99: Feeling and not questioned, the answer seems to be yes. #00: Um hm. #99: But I don't know. . you know. . I have this horrible feeling the answer is yes. #00: Well, okay. #99: But. . All right, I'm not going to say it Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD 500930001-5 CIRU 1) () 7. _or e placement of a monitoring device. Is your impression, #99, that this is the only such device in the building, that monitors z=n500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP ~Ir,th-919ET doesn't make sense. I don't know what it means. SG1A #00: Okay, but. . . if there is second and subsequent monitoring devices, are they associated with the same firm, or the same organization? Otherwise, whatever goes on in 0. you know, while the question is focused on that room, there may be. , . there may be . . . . there may be five other rooms with that firm. #99: You know. I'm just gonna through it off, cause its psychically. I'm wondering whether one of those rooms is not geared. . . . to monitoring within the building itself. #00: All right, this is an internal security. company security. . #99: And the information then is leaked out. Let's say that there wore offices upstairs. #00: All right. #99: And I would be down here. #00: Um hm. #99: And I would. be getting some of the information. All right. Then I would be able to leak it out. Now this is psy. . . . #00: Are you conjuring up a. . . a plan that is known to someone in the company? #99: Somebody knows about this, that's for sure. #00: Yeah but we're: . . the difference is they surreptitiously planted a listening device, or monitoring device, versus a company controlled security system. #99: That's right. That's what I'm trying to say. #00: All right. Which is it? Or is it both? #99: Let me. . . I'm going to ask you a question, #00, which is psychic to me. All right. #00: Okay. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET #99: All right. 'Cause I know nothing about how building security. The only one I know is that. . . my friend's apartment, if somebody is ringing the doorbell, they have it on a television and they can be seen. That's about the amount of security that I know. But, let me ask you a question. It is both logical and psychic. . . because first it came psychic. Let's say that there is a security in the building; a general security security. All right. Is it possible that someone could enter into. . without anything being known. . into the general security and still tap into the security of the rooms? #00: Okay, if the question is, can an authorized, bonafide, security monitoring system be used as a serruptious device, the answering is yes. Technically, of course it can be. #99: If I had a. small cubical or a small room in there - I'd be somewhere's within there - and I would. . . All right, here is the whole thing monitoring within the whole building, could I plug in. . into it without anyone knowing? And know what was going on on the general monitor or within the rooms itself. #00: I would say, technically, yes. Whether anyone knows it or not of course is a matter of efficiency of counter. . . countering such things. #99: It seems wild, #00, but that's the vision that I keep getting. . that the monitoring or whatever it is . . is unknown because it's so simple. #00: Okay, what you're talking about now is the potential - if I understand you #99, that a . . an established monitoring security system is being used not only for that process but also serruptitiously to get information out. #00: Unknown . . Unknown and also to the detriment of the . . of the process. #99: Yeah. You. see the reason I come up with that #00, is I )kept asking, how . . . 'cause it kept bugging me. . . how could information come out of that. You know, by monitor. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CI4? DP Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-R 00500930001-5 9RE #00: Okay, well this. . . Is that more plausible than. . the . . You think that's what happened when the building was constructed - that it wasn't a foreign country that caused a . . the implantation of a listening device, that in fact it was built into the building intentionally to provide security and now that has been breached by someone tapping into it. Do you think that's . . . #99: That's . . that's what I . . This is what is much . . . This just flashed across my mind. #00: Okay. #99: Not, you know . . . I'm trying to put in, know. . what I had seen.. . what the firstou thoughts came in, here we have this. #00: Okay. All right. This is the way we've done before, #99, . . . #99: I'm not contradicting what I said before. I'm merely explaining, how . Remember my . . my incent said that something. . somebody planted something, how did they do it. You know. . at the build. . you know when this was built. #00: Um hm. #99: Remember . . Correct me if I'm wrong. And I . . this has been bugging me. Flow they could without anyone knowing anything about it. And this has been what has been praying as we go along into the monitor. #00: You know I would like to leave both of them open. #99: Okay. #00: That, in fact, during construction there was a. . an illegal device or devices implanted. But right now, you are leaning more towards the fact that as a part of the architectual plans, a. security. . internal security system was put in and that system has now been breached and is being used to get information out. #99: Yes. #00: Now is that the sense of what you're having now? I BE 23 one Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R 00500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : Cl #99: Right. Now, let me. Now, let's go back. I want you to still hold that first one. As Dr. Osis says, you know, you may be fed into two systems and not just one system or something to this effect. I'm just going back over the training . #00: Okay, let's. . and you think that the information is leaking to. . into an area of the Middle East or Africa or Northern Africa. Do you think that's where the leakage is going? #99: I have to say that it's going by way of that, yes. #00: By way of that. #99: By way of that. #00: Okay, I want to try to get spec_ific,, #99. In that area, we have a number of countries, although we have a schizem in that country, essentially, Isreali, Isreal alone and the. an Arab block. . although there are a number of independent countries. Of the candidates, is the information going to Isreali, Isreal or is information going to one or more Arab countries? #99: Its not going to Isreal. #00: All right. So we eliminate that. PAUSE #99: I'm going to give you a description. I keep seeing a dark brown faced man. I don't see him black. #00: All right. Where is this man? Is he in. #99: When you. askedthe question, what country. this is the image that came in mind. #00: But is he in his country . . of origin, or is he. . is he in the United States. Is he at or around this side. SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 E T #99: This was giving me a description of the race where I have to look for the question you asked. #00: Okay, let's let that . . lay and let's go back to the room #99. #99: Okay. SG1A #00: I want you to go into a . . . either do an out of body, a #99 two, or at least go into a . . a deeper state and attempt to go to the room and give us as much descriptive narrative of the room as you can. We started off that way but we got. . we got diverted on other things as we frequently do. All right, Room Just give us a brief 11ow o descriptions of things that you see in the room. Jointed or disjointed. #99: All right. As I go in I see a . . space, I see a desk. . what appears to be perhaps a couch or something to sit on. There are cubicals. By cubicals, they could very well be rooms, you know, that one could not hear. They could very well be rooms. Doors. I see monitors. I keep seeing certain equipment, #00. I can't locate it. High things, like equipment. Some kind of equipment. Then, . . paper, as if there was something to plot on or work with. Perhaps something you would say on a, drawing board or that's a word to use. #99: But in one. . one end of the room. . I don't know what it is. . I keep seeing high. . . As if I was going to be . . something technical. #00: Is this machinery or some sort of apparatus or what? #99: Its an apparatus of some kind. #00: Well, how about a computer? Is there a computer in the facility? #99: I see it. I have to describe it 'cause I'm not. . . I don't know what different types of computers look like. The only thing of computers Approved For Release 2004/08/25: Cl) DP 0500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD 0% n 10500930001-5 I know is these little ones here. It looks high to me and there are dials or . . knobs. . things that I can turn. They're meters. #00: Meters of some sort. #99: Some sort. #00: Are there tapes on them? You have a reel-to-- reel tape recorder. Is . . is. . . Are there tapes on there'? #99: I'm seeing it from an angle. . . and I'm trying to get in the front of it to look what its like. #00: Is this equipment used to receive messages? Is it communication equipment? Or is it used in some sort of analysis? #99: I would have to put it more in an analysis. #00: All right. #99: May I ask you a question? #00: Um IUD . #99: Can you feed tapes to that and then get an answer on paper or something like that? #00: Well, you can put a tape. . . when you say tapes, tell me what you mean. #99: As if I was feeding something and. then . . I would get . . #00: Well, describe what you're feeling, what are you . . . #99: Like something going, round and round and then I see a piece of paper. #00: Okay. But when you say tape, do you mean magnetic tape. . that is as in a tape recorder or is it some other type of tape? #99: Well, the only reason I used the word tape is that I keep seeing this thing go around and then some information coming out. #00: All. right. Well, the answer is yes. I mean that's . . you know what could come out could be a numerical or alpha-numerical presentation of what was on the tape. Are you familiar with ticker-tape. . from the Wall Street . . . Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA?DP R0I500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SEr;RET #99: Yeah. Yeah. When you only have this little thing. But this is not what I see. #00: Okay. What do you see? I want to know what you see. #99: 1 keep seeing like a sheet of paper coming out. #00: Okay, what's on the paper? PAUSE #99: It looks like numbers. More than words. #00: All right. And this is. . And. you say this. you think this is some sort of an anai_ytical. process or an analysis of something? #99: Its some kind of analysis or something thats . . . is fed and you're getting some kind of information. #00: Okay. #99: I don't want to say its coded either. I'm merely saying that I don't know what it is. #00: Okay. #99: 1 see. . . It doesn't. . . I see numbers. I don't see the whole page. But I do see numbers. #00: Okay. What. . What is the . . Can you give us the general subject matter. . of what is being analyzed. In what field? Does it have something to do in the field of astro- nautics, in the field of communications, in the field of oceanography, or what field? #99: It has nothing to do with oceanography. I'm I keep seeing hands, tight. Something. #00: Is thhere a, keyboard associated with this equipment? Approved For Release 2004/08/25: C1~ S. 8000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R H 00500930001-5 .9,,R #99: Yeah. At one . . . Not there. But I keep seeing this here and then something out of there comes out. I don't know what that . . #00: Well. Is this . . The process that you've described in general - is this a normal function? Is this a routine that they go through as far as how they do their job?. . In analysis or in research? #99: It would appear to be. #00: Okay. #99: Yeah. #00: And, how about the subject matter? What are they working on right now? What's the problem? What are they trying to analyse? #99: It doesn't give me an answer right now. But let me put it into the back of my mind. I have to get closer. #00: Okay. #99: I have to . . Going back into this room, . . in one area I see a large. . it's a closed room that I know within that room a . . . and there's a table, like a conference something like that. A conference room. #00: Well, what's the significance of this, #99. I mean that. . to me in any, in most corporate areas. . . #99: No. No. #00: . . Its not unusual to have a conference room.. . combination library. #99: No. Its . . . #00: Is it something significant? #99: Yeah. There's something significant and I'm trying to . . . #00: Well, what is it? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : C?W-RD 610500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R 000500930001-5 i #00: Is this room kept secure from the other rooms? #99: Yes it is. What I'm picking up is. . I'm trying to tune in on a conference #00. #00: All right. PAUSE #99: There are six people. But there's one woman. #00: Five men and one woman? #99: Um hm. #00: Okay and they're in . #99: At least the way I . . . In this one. . section. They're in this big room. #00: All right. #99: Or in this room. PAUSE #00: What's going on? What are they discussing? PAUSE #99: They are discussing something that they are going to do. #00: What. . . Can you pick up any words at all #99, that would shed light on the subject? #99: It said, message. . something concerning the message has been relayed to such and such a person, action. . is to be taken in regards to . . and they are not saying the subject. but it looks like . . it's more of a code. Like two . . . #99: The number 206, but I don't know what that means. #00: Okay, well, is that a project number? #99: It could be a project number. #00: Action is being taken. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIAZ~DP96- 930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #99: 206. SECRET #00: Is there a code name for the project? You said #99: That's what I meant. . the number. . that's what I gave 206, that comes. #00: Is that important #99? #99: That's important. The meeting is important, primarily. . . whenever this happened, whether its happening now or it happenedin the past, I don't know. Because. . . . #00: Okay, let's get that straight. You don't know if you're dealing; with a meeting going on or one that has happened. . in the past. #99: Yeah. #00: Can you. . can you clear that up. #99: It appears to me that its one that has happened, #00. #00: Okay. #99:' Which is very . . important in which something went wrong with the information. #00: Something went wrong with the information in what sense? #99: In the sense that . . .They are back after. . after whatever was worked on and 206, whatever that means, and now they're . . . they're re- hashing what went wrong. #00: Okay. Okay, so . . so let's just make up something here. 206 was the project they were working on and . . they didn't get the results that they wanted or. something happened and they're discussing that. Is that. Is that something like that or what? #99: Yes. Yes. But its. . its so important. Its so important that they have to restructure something. #00: Well, is it important to them? As a company entity? Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : Cidr R % 00500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #99: No. No. Important to the project. To the #00: To the customer? To the. #99: The customer. #00: Well, is it important. . let me shift on you. Is the importance that there was an allegation that it was leaked? The results. I mean is the security an angle here or not? Or is there some other . . #99: No. Its security. PAUSE #00: Did I plant that in your mind? #99: No. No. The reason I say that is that the man who is speaking. . . . is. saying something to this effect. #00: Who is the man? #99: Wait a. minute! Hold it. #00: Okay. #99: Whatever number means, 206, whatever that comes in, had to be stopped. . . and we have to re. . . . redo it because of security. and it appears to be security leakage. #00: Okay. #99: Its a project. . Its something that happened - a security leakage. PAUSE And related #00 with somebody that was killed. #00: Now let's be more precise - related to someone who died or to someone who was killed? #99: I have to say killed. I'll keep my first impression. #00: Your first impression. . . #99: You've got to realize, #00, and I. . this is from prior knowledge and I think we know that, I don't know what I'm picking here. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 4#4400930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #00: Yeah okay. Tha But #99: All right? #00: But this person who was killed. . was associated with this company. #99: Yes. Now I said killed, you said died. #00: Uh hub. #99: All right. I have to say killed. #00: All right. #99: I'm not saying. . I don't know whether its a gun or ran over or whatever. #00: Well, you know, as you know I'm not arguing on it, because it is . . is #99: I'm trying to clear it for (not audible). #00: There is a difference, you know, that Mr. Smith died of a heart attack or was killed, you know, from . . . you know died of natural causes or unnatural causes. #99: To me, its not natural causes. #00: Okay. #99: That's if we're going to clear that. #00: Well, all right. Go on #99, what else are you picking up? #99: But I'm picking up that this had such a great affect that its still continuing right now. #00: Was Mr. . . . What's the name of the person who was killed? #99: They don't give a name. #00: Well, okay. Let's call him Mr. Smith. #99: They give a number, but they do not give a name. #00: Is it a different number than 206? #99: Yeah. #00: Okay. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CI 00500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP -0 788R000500930001-5 #99: But I can't. . . I can't hear it. #00: Well, okay, was . . was the person who was killed. . . did he impact on the project because he was a key member of the project, or what was the significance of the person who was killed to the . . repeating the project or the security leak? #99: Everything. #00: But that's more than I can handle. You know. . . #99: By everything . . let me put it this way. That he was a key man in the project. #00: Okay. Is the suspicion. . . was he killed and something taken from his person or his . . his home or apartment?. Was that where the security . . problem arose? #99: Let's go back. . . may I take a minute off and then come back. I've got to go to the bathroom. #00: Yeah. #99: It's very important. Assume. . . all right, let's put it this way. I said, killed. Now that might be my psychic impression. Is missing and assumed dead according to . . or killed. Do you follow what I'm trying to say. #00: Yeah. But that's #99: Assumed. They have no . . They have. . Its just that this person has disappeared. #00: Okay, but you say killed. #99: I say killed. That's my psychic impression. #00: Okay. Do they know that he is killed? Otherwise are you telling us more than they know at this time? #99: Yes. They are assuming something. And I am saying that he is killed. #00: Okay. But their knowledge is that he has disappeared. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : Cn-RD - 078 00500930001-5 9% 1 11.1 am `E KET Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96-0 {930001-5 k #99: Disappeared. And, assumed dead. #00: Okay, but is that their concern of the breach of security - that on Project 206, if that's. . . #99: The number. #00: That's a correct association? #99: Yeah. #00: That Mr. Smith, the person that disappeared, . . . you know, carried with him, you know a great deal of knowledge. . . #99: It said this person is young. Give you a description - thin, by thin I mean he's not fat, he is late 20's early 30's, hair looks as if it was curly or short, and it said this person was very important. #00: Okay, now this is the person that is missing slash killed. #99: Yeah. Killed. #00: All right. The person that. . . let's go back in the conference room where they're talking about this. The man who's leading the conference, what does he look like #99? #99: He's and elderly person - by elderly, oh what you wouldn't call elderly. Ha ha.. Is this in reference to what you want, .1 suppose. . . #00: You won't hurt my feelings if you say. . he's 50 years old, go ahead. #99: You know, you know, he's probably over 50, #00. / #00: All right. #99: IIe's not in 75 for sure, let's put it this way. #00: All right. #99: And he's very concerned about this young person. #00: Okay. #99: And he's briefing. . briefing this that this person has certain information. . . which was in. the whole project of this. NUCHM Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- SHRI&O00500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-FQt9? 8 jZ000500930001-5 #00: Well, what does that person look like who is briefing now? Is he grey-haired, or. #99: I would salt and pepper hair. Not, you know, grey. I wouldn't say stocky, but. . . I would put him more like #6.5 than more. . you know size wise, okay. #00: Uh huh. #99: Okay. But dressed not in uniform or anything, he's just: . , . #00: Since there's only one female in the room, you can . . should be easy to focus on her. What does she look like? #99: She's (END OF SIDE 2 - FIRST OF TWO SESSIONS) Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD S M-1 70500930001-5 TAPE 2 - SIDE 1 #99: . . . and she's slim, you know, she's not chubby or anything else. Very attractive looking. . #00: Okay, how about a name; people are talking to her, to they refer to her . . . #99: There's. . . There's no name given to anybody in there, that's what's. . . #00: Okay. #99: When I went to the bathroom that was the whole thing that I was trying to put. #00: Okay. #99: No one - he didn't say Hey Jim or Hey Susie. Its just . . . there are no names given by this person. I don't even know the name of the person . . . you know, the name of the person who's speaking. #00: Okay. #99: The other thing that came while I was in the bathroom. . . . #00 is this: We started out. . . #6.5 asked me to describe the room, and I seem to be going . . beyond. . you know more than that and I have to explain to #6.5 as we do in the laboratory and #6.5 knows about it. What comes more strongly in anything that I work is what is most important. You make ask me to describe - its not that I'm getting away from it. Its just that the strongest part always affects me more than, maybe, your question. It doesn't mean that I won't be coming back, to, you know, as we've been doing to the description of the room. Okay. #00: Okay, but now you told us that for a reason other than education. Do you suspect that you got out of I land went somewhere SG1A else? Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96- .YBPUMOMM930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96- 5Q0930001-5 #6.5: But the con m is within the confines of #99: No. No no no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm merely saying that . . . . I . . . Like in the lab test, Dr. Osis would say, Hey #99 will you do this. And suddenly that whole thing has not mattering, something else had some up, supers-imposed itself, which was more important. #00: Yeah. Okay, we'll go with the flow. #99: And that. . this is what I'm trying to say. #00: We're not against that at all. #99: I just want #6.5 that I'm not getting away from the description of the room that you're asking first, its just that these impressions seem to be much stronger and much faster. . . #00: Uh huh. Okay. #99: And'is . . are meaningful. #00: Okay, that's how we got in the conference room. . . #99: Yes. #00: As a matter of fact, because that which may have taken place before now, was important. #99: It was important; this is what I'm trying to explain. #00: All right. SG1A #99: This is what it appears to me. #00: Um hm. #99: . . as I'm looking at it, Okay. At least, their meeting. . place. #6.5: Within SG1A Yeah. I'm still within This is . . I have not . . I have not gone out of this room as far as I know now. All right. As far as I know now, I haven't. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIARDP CRUT 00930001-5 SG1A SG1A SG1A Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP #99: I have to also state that there are times that I have jumped from one room to another without knowing it. But, later on it comes back to me. But as far as I know now, no I #00: Okay, #99, I want to try . . . . back out, you know relax now, let's go out of body But get out in the hallway. #99: All right. Before we do that, I want to take a drink of something and we'll come back on that, 'cause I want to keep . . . #00: All right, we are continuing after a break. #99 if you will settle back down now - the last thing we were discussing was a . . a psychic impression of a room in which there were five men. and one woman. You provided You had provided a sketch of a table, an oval table where a more elderly man is holding forth and discussing the project and the death of a younger colleague. You indicated the death actually was the man was killed and you've given a description of that. #99: Can I make a preference. . another note on that #00? #00: Yes. #99: The why that its appearing; its appearing as if it was happening or has happened. All right. #00: The meeting. #99: The meeting. #00: Okay. #99: I also want to preface that at times, that meeting could still be coming. I want . . . . . I'm not trying to throw a monkey wrench in what I've said. uu: xean, but I need sPI=-n ` y. I -_ Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA- RDP' ~'0 6500930001-5 SG1A Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 500930001-5 #99: All right. I want to put this clarity. We're working here on something that's very important and I have to take into consideration all the things that have happened before into it to explain. . . what has happened. There has been a couple of times where I saw a meeting which was actually . . . I was living in . . that it was happening or had happened. All right. When, in all of a sudden, there was no information but lets say three or four weeks later that meeting took place. All right. Now, as I'm seeing it now, I can only explain that I'm living within that meeting as it has happened. #00: All right. #99: But I also want to preface. . . the other. Not to throw a monkey wrench in it, or to be aware of it if it has not happened. #00: All right #99, this is not disturbing, but #99: Okay. #00: I must ask you then in view of that state- ment about something that is probably . . something that you should be able to pin down better as to whether it has happened, already occurred, or will occur. And this is the death of the young man. Has that occurred? #99: This is what I was trying to put together when I was in the bathroom and that's why this scene. . what I've just told you . . . you know, I'm repeating. Before we end the meeting today on this, I will have the answer for you. #00: Okay. #99: I will get the answer. #00: Psychically you're (not audible - both talking at once). #99: Yes, I'll have the answer for you. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA RDP9 00930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 #00: Okay, so the young man may have died or have been killed or may not as of . . as of the . . the state in. . . . #99: Let me put it this way. The answer is . . . I have it. The answer is that the meeting that I'm seeing - that one meeting -- is past. #00: Is past. #99: Is past. #00: And so . . since they are discussing the Project 206 and the death of a colleague who is already been. . . he is already dead - has been killed. #99: 'Yes. Yes. #00: And the issue that is still unsettled in . . . You suspect, or do you know, that they don't know that he's been killed. They know that he has disappeared. #99: Um hm. #00: And presumed dead. #99: Presumed dead. #00: What are the conditions . . . What are their other assumptions? Disappeared in a . . he took a trip and never came back? Was on a sailing vessel and never returned? Any details of his disappearance. #99: No he wasn't. All I can say . . . in the meeting place. . you have to understand that I am not hearing a meeting like you and I are talking. I'm hearing something . . . . very cryptic. . . #00: All right (not audible) you brought up the fact that the. . . that they feel, that they believe he simply disappeared and presumed dead. #99: All right. The question. . . The answer is this. #00: What is. #99: The question is that this man . . . went somewneres from wh ther from the Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- RDP96-0930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-007 930001-5 KEr meeting, and . . has disappeared. #00: And never came back. #99: Never came back. We have nothing on him. #00: Okay. #6.5: And you're now satisfied that this meeting has taken place. #99: Has taken place. #00: Okay, The trip that the young man went on, was it associated with the project or was it unassociated with it? #99: It was associated with this project. Okay. SG1A #99: Or, associated with what's going on in #00: Yeah. Well, why is there a presumption of death? Simply because he didn't return? #99: I'm trying to read the man's mind, you know, what he's talking. . . #00: Um hm, #99: . . and that's why its taking me time. I'm trying to see what he is saying. #99: When I say it doesn't make sense, I'm going to leave it at, "doesn't make sense" but I'm going to tell you what it says. This man. . . as far as I can read his mind. . and I don't know how he is brief- ing the others in the room. . . #00: Urn hm. #99: . . This man was to be assumed disappeared for the reason here whatever it is. They don't know thatthe man has been killed. #00: Okay. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA,RD 1 0500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9.(; (00930001-5 #99: Do you follow. . Do you follow. . . #00: You said that before, right. #99: Yeah. In other words, they would report him as missing/presumed dead. #00: Okay. #99: And that's what they did. Now whatever this was involved with. Now I am picking up the man is dead. #00: Okay. #99: Do you follow . . Do you follow the double thing here? #00: Yeah but my question still stands unanswered. Why is there a presumption of death? Simply because he's been gone a long time? #99: That's. . No no. This is . . This is what I'm reading in his mind that is the plan. #00: Oh. Is the purpose of the meeting to discuss how they're going to . . . I mean this partic- ular subject. You know, how are we going to handle the disappearance of young Mr. Smith. #99: Which appears to be what . #00: Well, I'm a little confused. But let me ask another question, #99, in this regard. Of the five men and the one woman in the room, do any of these people know that he is dead? #99: No. #00: Okay, so that there is . . #99: It appears to me that the man is giving a briefing about this young man. #00: Uh huh. #99: All right. And this what the information is coming out. #00: Okay. All right. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA7RDP 500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 L-JECIRET to be a center point. I'm not gonna ask one of the side--track into the picture. #00: All right, #99, lets go back to the number 206, Do you think that was the number of a project that they were involved in? I guess I'm . . . Eventually I want to get at what does 206 mean? Can you tell us. . can you decode that? #99: At least that seemed Now, for what reason, the question, that is things that has come #99: 206 is . . . a way of speaking, . about a certain thing or certain project without giving names which everybody knows something about. #00: Okay. But you know, I accept that. But now tell me what 206 means. Does it refer to a country. . . #99: It refers to a project. #00: And the project is what? Any impressions on that? #99: It deals . . . . It deals with the leakage / of information. #00: Or. . . Okay, so 206 is the concern of . . okay, earlier I thought it was 206 - was something, a project that they had to do over because of leakage. #99: Yes, because of leakage, but it deals with . . the. . Again, when the question comes its a leakage, what they're doing because of the leakage, all right, they have to redo the project. Okay, do you follow what I'm saying? #00: Yeah, okay, but #99: In other words, what I . . let me try to explain. That they are gonna have to re Since this person is now out of the picture, all right, their gonna have to assign some- one else as far as I can see. 8 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 00930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA- #00: Yeah. But you know. My point is this: And this is conventional - that you'll as- sign a project a code name or a number so that in a . . in a common collection. assemblage of people who are not cleared for this, you can say, okay, tomorrow #99, 1 want to . . I'm meeting with you and I want to discuss 206 and 211. All right that means something to you. it doesn't mean anything to the secretaries or anything else. Okay. Is 206 the code number for the leak which is now a separate project or is 206 the code number of the project which was known to have been leaked? #99: The project. #00: It was the project? #99: The project. #00: Okay. So, I'm back to it. What does what was 206? And of course, you're entitled not to have any input. #99; I know. Its not an input. I'm gonna give you pictures. Pictures, again, paper. And on this paper, which I cannot see, are certain things. Symbols, other papers. . . #00: Are they dimensional., that is something that sticks up from the paper, or is this. . . . #99; No.. #00: . . something you move around on the paper. #99: You can . . its rolled. You open it up. #00: Okay, #99: Its laying down, you know, on a table. #00; That's the base paper. #99; The base paper. And on it seems to be something as if he was pointing, but I cannot see the paper. 9 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96-bd'6 'S60930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 00: But you, early, said . . you see things are open, sketches, things being moved and plotted. #99: That was totally different from what I'm seeing, you know, this is another scene. Somewhere's out here. We're talking about #00: We're talking about 206. #99: We're talking about 206 and its not telling me exacting what 206 is. #00: Okay, but we . . we roll out 'something and that paper a map #99? #99: I would say. . . yes. #00: Well, let me give you some. #99: But I have to . . I have to add something to this. It is more than a map. #00: Is it a blueprint? In addition to a map. Or is it a map. . . is it a blueprint which could be conceivably called a map of a design. #99: All right. I don't know what you're saying but let me describe something closer that I see concerning that even though I don't see it. #00: All right. #99: There are squares. And I see these lines running across. There are numbers on the top, there are numbers on the side. There are squares that I'm going through. Some. but I cannot see what is within the squares. #00: Okay, but have you described a graph paper, you know. . . #99: It is not just. . no. No, it is not that. The squares are bigger than that, #00: Okay, but something is entered into the squares? #99: Yeah. Something. . design not writing. . . are entered into the squares. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIAJRDP Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA7W,$R000500930001-5 #00: When you say not writing, could the . . the . . could the entry be a formulation, that is, a formula. Arithmetical or . . algebratic. . . When you say not writing, could it be some symbology, mathematical symbology? Or chemical formulas? #99: I have to say that I see mathematical numbers more than words. #00: Okay. #99: AndI don't know what that means. #00: Okay. #99: But superimposed. . . these numbers. as if there was a faint design on the paper, all right. #00: All right. #99: And then numbers are superimposed over this. . this little design. #00: Okay. Do we have in this case a something they're trying to complete. They have a plan or an outline on the paper and they are filling in data as they get it? #99:. I would have to say yes. Its not . . .The reason I say that is because I don't see the completion of it. All right. In other words I see a number here but I don't see a number here so there must be something into that relationship. #00: Okay, is that . . is that a unique project in this whole enterprise? #99:: To me it is, #00. #00: Well, okay, you need . #99:: Psychically. #00: Okay. But my question precisely is this: If we were . . had knowledge of project 1.15 and 412 would it look the same? They would roll out a piece of paper and there would be some sort of symbology and squares? Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA,- DP96 ; V, 590930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDF9 #99: #00: Okay, so . . R 500930001-5 #99: Let me . . Let me put it this way, #00. Again, clear blue sky. Let's say I was looking at this map or this design and I would say number 311. All right. And, whether its a person or whether it would be entered 311 on this map or on this piece of paper. That would be meaningful to those who know what 311 is and what the relation is on this blueprint or whatever it is. #00: Um hm. Okay. #99: What appears to what I'm assimulating together about here are certain SG1A projects taking p ace w ich on the surface people do not know that they are taking place.` All right. But in a way, certain people through codes or through numbers, know what they're talking about. All right, do you follow? And I don't know to what extent these projects are. . To what degree they are but certainly people, leave this 333 and .go out. Their not . you know. . and out. There are also, as it appears, monitors. There are also things that they can program. There are rooms. You. know, in here. #00: Well, what you're. . . Let me ask the question about making a statement. When you said that people can go out, I find that un- exceptional. Well, obviously people Igo out. They're not prisoners in SG1A #99: No no no no. I mean they sent out people. Lets say that I was working for them and they would say like number 210, you go to such and such a place. #00: Well now you've given a code number to an employee. #99: Yes. #00: Are employees coded? Do they carry. #99: It appears that some . . . in some of the projects that a person or one of the employees would be coded. #00,- Okay. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96 0930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD #99: Do you follow. This is just again, out. #00: Okay. Okay. #99: Now, I don't know how that is worked out #00, #00: Um hm. #99: I don't know how its worked out. There seemed to be a couple of levels of things going on. As if there were . . Let me put it this way, security coverage. #00 : Um hm . #99: All right and things are going on. Observa- tions, things that are taking place. #00: Okay, lets go back to something that we discussed earlier. We talked about a leakage of information. Specifically, #99, is this a breach of security? #99: Strongly #00. #00: Okay so that . . . from this enterprise, from what's going on in there is SG1A an unauthorized leakage of information. #99: Um hm. #00: Is this leakage in a . . going out because // one of the employees walks out with inform- ation and then -transmits it, or is it . . . No, I mean that's one possibility. Possibility A. Possibility B is that it is an electronic or listening leakage that somehow the inform- ation is being transmitted over a system. Or, is it both or could it be both or a third option? #99: The strongest #00 is through a system, but it does not involve a person. #00: Okay so . . so . . #99: That would be secondary. #00: Okay, the leakage is built in;somehow there someone is tapping a sensor that . . is this sensor . . . #99: See what bothers me #00, in this, is this. Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-0 7 500930001-5 13 g Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 q, rT 00930001-5 SG1A #99: When some information is being worked out I don't know how they know, you know, that this is taking place. #00: Okay. #99: That's troubling me. #00: You mean how . . when you say they, who are they? #99: I'm saying , . . lets say they're monitoring this. How would they know that at such and such an hour . . . #00: Okay, they being the people who are the unauthorized. . . #99: Unauthorized, yes. . . listeners. #00: Well, I . . . They don't know. I mean the #99: No. The point is they do know. That's what is troubling me. #00: Okay. They do know what? They do know when to focus in or listen in? #99: Um hm. #00: Well, its . . if the system . . . my simple answer is the system operates 24 hours a day and they man the listening device or the viewing device 24 hours a day. #99: That doesn't buy it psychically. #00: You reject that. #99: I reject that psychically. #00: Well tell me what you think happens and then we'll . . try to figure out why it happens, how it happens. What is happening? #99: I think someone in there is leaking out information and then it is monitored. #00: Well, does the monitor pick up . . and cover all of or only part of it? For example, does it monitor the conference room that you visited? PAUSE Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00 14 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RbP98.OO $II000500930001-5 #99: It does not monitor the whole building; I mean the whole room. #00: All right. #99: All right. But, . . one of the important rooms and . . . . . the strong psychic feeling is wherever they're having a. . the meeting, whether this meeting room, is also monitored. #00: One of the important rooms, psychically; could we call that room a vault. . or is. does that term mean anything to you psychically? And practically, let me tell you what it means to me. That within a . . secur. . within an area like this if they wanted to have a storage and/or a conference room that for which special internal access is required, that . . such an area might be called a vault. Is #99: Right. #00: The room called vault is an area that is being monitored. #99: Yeah. What I see . . . . . . closed room, separate, and that's monitored. #00: Okay, is that the conference room or is that another room? #99: That's something else. #00: Something else. #99: Plus, this conference room. All right. But I'm not going to ask how, because I don't know. #00: All right. #99: And I don't place. know how the leakage is taking #00: All right. Okay. #99: Now, I have to preface . . , I have to do a lot of things. I have to make a point known. How much of the people,and I have to say that again, of what I'm seeing is available to them or not, I don't know. All I'm saying is this. I don't know . . you know, what you are looking for. I'm giving you my psychic impressions of some of the things which are in the confines of that. And I want to make that known. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 27MUQQ500930001-5 15 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SG1A #00: CAST Okay, yeah, but, of course you weren't asked to do what we're doing. You're simply . . . Where originally we were tasked to talk about what goes on in I land we considerably enlarged upon that. But I expected to enlarge on it. I mean thats . . . I . . . I . . working with you, I know how these things go. #99: Yeah. I'm always saying that these impressions are coming and I'm Just letting them go. #00: Okay. #99: And, you're gonna. . . you people are gonna have to put them together in some kind of order. That's all 'I'm saying. #00: Okay, we have a little bit of time left #99 before we run out of what I consider to be a mandatory two hours. #99: Yeah. #00: Any overall . . Any additional overall things that have . . that has come to you that we haven't talked about. #99: Psychically, #00, . . . I'm going to tell you again - I have a very strong emotional bad feeling about the room. In that . . bad feeling is this. By had I mean negative and I don't know what. #00: Okay, is . . . #99: But it deals with the room and it deals with something very, very important that may not go off because of what's going on in that room. #00: Okay, that was my question. Are we . . . or you. . talking about; something that has transpired or something that will . . . #99: No. Something that is to happen and some surveyance or something that has to take place within that room. SG1A #00, Okay. #99, a quick resurvey of the . . of the room. Can you sketch the room. . . Can you draw the compartmentization as you see it? Can you hover over? Take off, if there's a fourth floor in the building, a fifth floor -- take them off. Hover over I land give Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-007 001-5 16 SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 SECRET us a sketch. . . of . . of the compartment- ization. Show us where the conference room is in relation to the entry where those machines, . . the machines that had dials and all on it were. #99: All right, let me give you compartment . . . I'm going into the room r I see this opening #00: I'd like a sketch. . I think that would be helpful, if you can sketch. #99: All right. It will be very sketchy because its . . By sketchy meaning . . I'm here in the room, I'm opening the door, here's door, SG1A #00: Well okay. Let me confine you -to a . a large square room. That's syou said it is more square than rectangle. #99: Yeah. #00: Okay, then we go in . . . . #99: Oh, wait a minute. Hold it. You meant more this way. I'm sorry #00, its my error. All right. My error of misunderstanding what you mean. #00: Okay. I want an architectural drawing of the room as we . . #99: I. . I'm seeing it long. #00: Okay. #99: All right. I see . . You know, I'm seeing it long. But doesn't mean that it isn't square. . I'm seeing. . I see with this. #00: All right. #99: So, we'll have to . . Because I don't want you to be restrained to a little square. #00: No. You draw what you are seeing. #99: And what I'm going to do here is, even though its square, I'm going to do it this way and Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9 V1T00930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 500930001-5 I'm going to leave it open. #00: Okay. #99: All right. And I'm going to put a line here. . Just because of the door. #00: Okay, #99: And here I am. As I'm entering what appears to me is some of the . . . . the instruments that I was telling you about are here. Okay. #00: All right. #99: What'll we put here - mechanics instruments. #00: Okay. #99: Then., . . along here I see like rooms or whatever they are, they seem to be separations. #00: Uin hm. Individual offices? #99: Yes, because I see doors. #00: Okay. How many are back in there? #99: I don't know. Now, the main person's office is not there. It appears to me from re- gathering that . . . the head office is more in here, right in here. #00: All right. #99: Now, it seems. . . #00: Where's the conference room #99? #99: There appeared . . . the conference room appears on this side #00. Or the room that I saw appears here. #00: Okay. #99: Now there's something that they can cross over and there seemed to be something here. #00: Well hallway, something or another. Where i.5 the . . the secure, the vault, or the other room that is monitored? Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-Rl 96` 510930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP 01500930001-5 #99: I'm in the room, I see this . . . Now, okay. The monitored room appears here also #00. You know, where the . . let me show you. Now, I have to say something. There seemed to be some monitors in some of the rooms here or something like monitors. Squares that I see. #00: Okay. #99: I don't know what that means. #00: Well, but . . I'm being. . I'm too casual in the . . in the use of monitors. I mean the serepitious, the illegal monitoring. #99: All right, its in here . . . #00: Now that was the manager's office. #99: The manager whoever's . . . yes, that room there. #00: Okay. #99: And here. #00: Okay. Well, how about the . . the vault, or the secure room. You erased it. #99: Oh, you mean here. #00: Well, you tell me where it is. #99: No. You mean. . . this. . is where . . I I. . . yeah. That's all part of it. Of the . . where its monitored. #00: Okay, the managers office, the had man's office, and the secure room and the . . . #99: Because he's able to go into this room, you know. . . . to go here, something takes place here also. #00: Okay. Now that's what I meant by monitored. #99: Now, I have to say as I'm thinking about this, that also has a table or you know could sit in here. #00: Um hm. SECRET Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R MRff 0500930001-5 #99: So. . I'm gonna have to . . I'm not gonna retake anything, all I'm gonna say is psychically I don't whether it took in this place or took in this place - the meeting that I'm talking about. #00: Yeah. #99: Okay. #00: All right. #6.5: But this is all. . you know, what I'm pointing at is the manager, the head man's office, the small vaulted area, all one area. . . SG1A SG1A #99: #6. 5: #99: yeah. Okay. But that's all. I see, you know there, that I can describe to you. 0 #00: Okay. #99: But what intrigues me most is this. . the mechanical., whatever. I see that's mechanical #00: Well, why are you intrigued by that? Are you intrigued intellectually or psychically? #99: Psychically. #00: All right. We'll pursue it. PAUSE #00: A paper input and a paper output. #99; I. . . I don't see what bothers me. Psychically is . . . I cannot and I'm not going to try it. I don't know what's going on in this room. #00: Uh huh. #99: I have to admit that. I don't know. . . what is going on in this room. All I know is that certain information which is very important which is taking place, projects, and that there is a leakage and there has been meetings and certain things and how they're going to deal with certain things, I know that much. At least that's strong. MPV500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA2-?D CAL I Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-RDP96f8 Qq$5U 0930001-5 #99: This machine seems to bring out some of the data which is going on here. #00: All right. #6.5: Do the people that work in there know that there's a leakage? #99: No they don't. That's only confined to very few. #6.5 : But somebody. . . #99: Somebody does, yes. #6.5; . knows that there's a leakage about what"s going on in that room. #99: Yes. Yes. That's right. #00: Okay, but obviously someone knows. The person who is taking advantage of the leakage. Someone else other than that person? #99: Well they seem . . . I have a strong feeling that the five people who he brought in for the meeting, know. . you know that there is a leakage. #00: Oh, know that there is a leak. But they don't know that they are talking about it and being overheard. #99: No . . no no. That's not what there is. #6.5: But they're not the cause of the leakage. #99; No they're not the cause of the leakage. #6.5: Okay. #99: I also want to make a very strong statement. Not the woman I mentioned here, but I don't know where she plays a part that has to be very carefully monitored. #00; All right. Another female. #99: Female. #00: . is playing an important role. Is she an employee in that office or does she have access to the office? , Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96-OQT 4 9 Q 1930001-5 wow Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R 000500930001-5 #99: She has access to the office, but I don't know how. #00: Well, is she. . does she have a badge, is she recognized as a . . . . #99: I'm . . . I'm giving this psychically. #00: Okay. #99: There's no images. Its . . Its . . you know .. . an . . . #00: Well, when I say badged. . . . PAUSE #99: This is a clairvoyant aspect of it. #00. JIold it #99, let me get you . . . . #99 And I have to make the distinctions on this. PAUSE Its a clairvoyant message. Its not a picture. That a woman. . . . is involved in the leakage of what is taking place. Whoever this is . . let me put it this way . . direct or indirect I mean, you know, voluntarily, involuntarily, I don't know. #00: Okay, You know, I accept the fact this is another type of . . . #99: Its something that's out of the clear blue sky that's coming in. #00: Okay, but my question is, query this input does the second female have . . have ordinary and authorized access to room 333? #99; Yes as i;C it was a report of some kind that was given. #00: No. That's. . That's. . That's an answer but that's not an answer to my question. She and others, a lot many others could well receive the information. #99: No. No. This . . This is something different #00. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA21~D 0 0500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP96 fCRIM0930001-5 SG1A #00: Does she get into I . by ordinary procedure, otherwise this . . . #99: No. She's not. The procedure is that they -- its clearance, much more than some of the others here. I would put here in clearance close to the man here. #00: Okay, I'm not . . . I'm not being clear to you #99. The second woman. . #99: Yes. #00: By all normal appearances she is authorized to have the knowledge. Otherwise she appears to be a legitimate receptor of the information. #99: Of the information. #00: Okay. But in fact she has a second part of I her. She is in part of the leakage. #99: Part of a leakage. #00: Okay. #99: But . . . . . . PAUSE Part of the leakage. PAUSE I have suspicioned, psychically again, that they do know something. Now I don't know what is happening, again. This is totally off base, I don't know where its coming forth its happening. Whether a test is being run on this woman or not and I have a feeling it is. #00: That she is under suspicion. #99: Suspicion. #00: Okay. #99 I think its prudent that we stop at this point because I've run you over two hours. #99; I don't know, this is the last thing that I had to have it in. I don't know how she fits in or what but I have to say that. #00: We can accept that. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-R 3 96 REIS0930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RDP9,J'W 0@500930001-5 #6.5: Can I ask just one question, I don't want to run you over? #99: Yeah, sure. No no. #6.5: You mentioned earlier, and I'm just trying to get some things ?- that we have a contact that I'll have him measure and I'll have him measure - that there may be an identifica- tion card or a badge (not audible). #99: Yes. #6.5: Can you focus on that and describe that? PAUSE Size, color, etc. #99: There were . . Let me go back and correct me. because many times these I do not remember so I have to go back on it. I believe that I said at first that they were showing a badge which was not attached to them. Now that seems to be a small badge in a wallet or something to that affect that you could flash and go through. Then, there is another one which you would put on here. And, it looks like . . there's some . yellowish to me, but I cannot be sure. All right. There seems to be a photograph and something written on it. Does that answer you question? #6.5: All right. Okay. I show you my ID card, #99: Yeah. #0.5: and because I have the proper ID card you give me a badge. #00: Yes. #6.5: And I wear the badge. #99: Yes. #00: Now don't accept that. #99: No no no no. I'm merely saying that . . you . . that's the person . . there are two types / of badges - one with a picture, the other one I don't see any picture at all. #6.5: Oh. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIAy DP96 ff MW 0930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RIP Fj00500930001-5 01 SG1A #99: Do you follow what I'm trying to say? #00: Yeah, but what #6.5 brought up is a technique of managing the badges.. When he comes in, he's authorized to go in O he comes in. #99: All right. All right. #00: This is the question now, let me go through it. He comes in, does he had the reception- ist or the guard an ID card and then he gets something in exchange. Is that the way it works or is there some other technique? #99: No., At least the one that I see is . in other words. . . let me put it together #6.5 so . . what I see and that's the only way I can explain it. I see someone bringing. . . showing a badge and he's admitted. Whether .he's given a badge to go on I don't know. Then I see others which have a different type of badge or something that looks like a picture on it or something written on, so I . . . #00: And then, that one may be trimmed in yellow v" . the one . , . #99: Yeah. Maybe trimmed in yellow. #00: Now #99 I don't want you to try to give me an answer now, but I want you to think about this. When you approach the door from the outside in addition to the number there probably is something on the door that identifies it as the Atlas. Research Corporation or something like that. You know, I'd like to have you just relax and if you can pick up a name or a title, you know, sometime, let me know, but work on that. And that is obviously, . . would help. . give some level SG1A of confidence. That in fact you were at in that building. And that's the reason I ask. If. - If . . If it . . you know, let it come out anytime. But I'm going to turn you off. #99: Certainly. Certainly, names do come at certain times and at certain times they don't. Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD 1, 0500930001-5 Approved For Release 2004/08/25 : CIA-R V tKi 00500930001-5 #99: You can turn the tape recorder off. Its Just that I'm .. , . . Approved For Release 2004/08/25: CIA-RD - 0500930001-5