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September 5, 2003
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Approved For Release 200 TRANSCRIPT SPECIAL SESSION 812 SESSION TWO SG1 A #00: From the latitude and longitude that you gave us, along with the photograph it is apparent that the building is in the Washington, D.C. area. And, what I'd like to have you consider, and we can discuss this after the session, is whether or not you want to do. . . it's been my observation, particularly in. . in the last experience that #99 has had working in the archeological area in Egypt of the value of proximity. We have been working on that project for over a year from here. From the United States. And while the input has been in some cases amazingly detailed, what #99 has reported after being on site -- on the (not audible) and the sphynx and this area, reinforces what the literature has told us and #99 . . by previous experience is that there is . . there is importance, that proximity is important. What I'm suggesting is a consideration of driving to and around the building and . . to see what additional information #99 can pick up by being closer to the target. You know, I'd like to have you just think about that as a. . as we go through the thing. #6.5: I am not in a position to make a decision on that. #6.5: Okay. Granted, I know that it is in the Washington, DC area - whatever that means - within a radius of 20 miles I guess. But, I do not know and have never been to the building. Okay. So. #00: Well, its a suggestion and you may want to pass it on. You know we could do that Friday morning and I could . . we could cut the tape in the car. #6.5: Um hm. #00: And make it available to you. #6.5: Okay. Fine. I will. . I will. be back on . . one. . two. . I probably will give you a call Thursday night< GRILL Ivi';, CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, DAMI-ISH Ap 6?Yejj(or0 e s C RM 09/ 007805163OZ L78 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 #00: Okay. All right. SG1A SG1A was given 0 On several occasions on #00: All right, #99, we have . . let's take . . . discuss the three points. First of all I would like to have a . . a real concentrated effort - and I will try to assist you in this in being very sure of where we are operating as a. function of time. This is not a problem, but this is something that we must recognize - that you have a capability of shifting the time forward and back, as well as operating in the current ti.meframe, so . . what we're interested in in this room and this building is what is going on contemporarily -- at the present time. And, lot's see if we can clear up the . . the issue of the number of the room. The room SG1A the tape, and I corrected you one time, after you had said =I said 0 and you didn't, you didn't say anything, you just went on. Is there a significance of 0 or was that just simply a lapse on your part as far as the number is concerned. #99: No. It isn't because. . . I remember numbers very well. In other words, anythin sychically that comes as a number, you know, these numbers are clear. The 303 number came in as a flash into my mind that I had to pa some attention to number I said ]room and I'm going to stick w1. that because o e psychic input that I have there. That it must have some reference in some way which we did not discuss, to #00: Well, let's have a little. . a, small debate about this #99. You know,.I accept what you said, but I recall at least on one occasion, you were - I don't think in an altered state of consciousness - I think we were having a discussion like much as we are now and in the pattern of speech you said in room0 Now, you know, I think that was a . . I don't think that was a psychic input at that point, but of course you could have had the imprint of = at that point. But I am recalling on one occasion SGI ?G1 A SGI A SGI AGG1 A SGI A SGI how was used by you. A #99: If it was in error, from my previous work, I would have not repeated it twice, once I was corrected or three times. That's a very important factor I found with I I also. Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIPkIjj 00940001-4 #99: As such now. Whether there is a room in that building, I don't know. I mean I have not, you know, made that whole statement in there such. But there's something connected with in the building. #6.5: The problem that that posed for me was some of your other statements saying that one something spontaneously leaps out at you, whether it be a number or whatever, it usually is significant. #00: Okay. #6.5: The way it came up at least once in the text and the way you're explaining it now, that you may have gone to because that was more important to you than the mission you're on. #99: Let me put it . . . It wasn't more important than the mission that I was on, but had some relation to the mission that I was on. #6.5: 11mm. Well, we'd like to. . . If we could, divert slightly. . . SG1A #99: And go back to #6.5: Go to II #99: We had ignored that in the very beginning. And later on proved that whether its room II or " connecte with that room, but I did say room It had some signifi- cance. I mean in o ier areas. So I am not going to dismiss it. #6.5: Just slightly. And tell us about #00: That's fair. Let's try to clear the issue up, #99. #99: Okay. Can we come 'back to that question. #00: Okay. #99: I would like it to come back as spontaneous as we go on to the. . . Let me . . Let me put it this way, as we're talking I'm getting like a connection and I'm going to put it a connection like . . . as if I was walking from one area that is very highly specific or specified into another area which would Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-500940001-4 SGI 181 A SGI A SGI A SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA 000500940001-4 SGIA #00: Front in the sense. that . . that you enter into nd aftelr you have negotiated that then allows you egress, access rather to SG1A the. .0 or something like that. Or do you mean front in some other sense. #00: Okay. Well, let me ask a couple questions and you may . . just for you to think about. When you say front, you know, that term, I'm not sure I understand what a front means so I want to find out what you mean when you say front. #99: All right. SGIA #99: Yeah. What it means. . Front means. . What I mean is that . . . . you would walk in there and let s say that it was an insurance company, . . . #00: Okay. #99: And it really isn't an insurance company, it deals with an insurance company and may have a legitimate license as an insurance cog any. But really its feeding material to insurance #00: Okay, so you're using front in a sense of . . of cover. #99: Cover. #00: Okay. SG1A SGIA SG1A SG1A #99: See, from the very beginning when you gave me all right, the room was not enough for me. #00: All right. Well, let's explore that. Is give me 0 All right. Where it would be a front. All right. That's the only way I can explain it. At this point. and 0 adequate or are there other rooms also in . . . connected in the sense, perhaps not physically connected, but conceptually connected in that they're supportive of each other. #99: At this present time I have to say this much. That the only two rooms, or two number that I'm getting and I'm going to use numbers instead of rooms is 0 and Now, most of the time yesterday, I was in ~ but there are areas that I feel, and this came you know, when I was Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CI -R 00500940001-4 walking and when. . I was so silent through . . the route of the car and again this morning. . . that I have strongly felt that at certain points as I was seeing something in one room, all right, the shift easily could have been into 0 and one of these things that the shift could be into was this high mechanical or what it was mechanical thing --- but I am not sure and that is why I have to go return into the room. #00: Okay. #99: Do you follow. In other words, that some of the equipment that I was seeing was. . it was like a split screen. All right. But showing me the relationship at the same time from one room to another. #00: All right, we have several . . . #99: Do you follow. . do you follow that? #0.0: We. . yeah, we have several possibilities SG1A SG1A SG1A then. That while the sketch you drew yesterday of 0 it maybe still essentially accurate and that there is some ap aratus, machinery at one end and also some in or that you in fact had merged to the contents of two rooms and that the machinery and perhaps something else is in and not in or that there is machinery in both rooms. I mean, these are three obvious options. A fourth option is that there are other rooms besides O and 0 and we will have to explore this today. And, of course, I would be interested if there is machinery in both rooms, #99, if there is a connection. That is, if the machines themselves - like a computer you may have the main terminal, you may have the main processing unit in one room, but terminals in other rooms and connected by just normal wire linkage, that sort of thing. #99: Let me. . pose something as a picture running SG1A through my min Let's say. . . let's say here I am inlI and let me say that I have a geographical, what I can see of the room, don't get me wrong. And my ? . (not audible) another option here that I have to consider SG1A psychically. Let's say that one of the rooms within 0 is 0 In other words, am I seeing you know, another room, in there. I'm not saying psychically that it is, I'm merely opening the option that it may all be, you know, one floor which appears more at this time, some kind SGI A SGI ?G1 A SGI A SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : C w , 0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 r SG1A of like. . I cannot visualize the room as being one room 0 like this. It is extended for me from what I could gather last night as I was moulding over it. It is not one that I walk into a small room and here is room 0 SG I and its just a small room. There is an extension that I see and that's what last night -- I was A very silent and I was trying to put together, what is this extension. Is this extension another room connected with it, or a separate room. But =did play an. important part in SGI my thinking last night, because I realized that I have never come out with a number that A is not meaningful.. #00: Okay, #99, just before we went on tape, another possibility is that 0 has a significance other SGI than a room number. A #99: Than a room number. #00: And so we'll try to explore those this morning. All right, let's get back to another concern that was. expressed. That is, the concept of a leakage or information leaving the suite of rooms. And, I think just for terminology and so SG1A as to not to bias what will come out later, whether its =or I'll simply state that when I SGI SG1A say the suite, 1 mean the suite that the nominal entrance is II because that is the target. But A SG1A I'm gonna to refer to it as the suite now instead of 0 and I'm not gonna mention 0 I want you SGI SG1A to bring that up and clear. that up for us. The concern is, that the suite, which is the target A the entrance of which is 0 the leak of inform- ation, is that information leakage contemporary. Is that going on right now? #99: The answer is yes. And very strongly yes. I am going to return to some of the images that I got while we were driving in the car last night. #00: All right. #99: There is again a feeling, and I have to express that as a feeling more than an image, that there is a group in which I feel, and I'm not going to give any nationality, it could be the United States at this time, I have not made any, any . . 'where some information is being received, or certain information is gotten into which this leakage of information leaves this room. Now . . Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDA 500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 I have a. . . . . I have a problem. All right. I have a problem. And the problem is this, sir. On the one side, my psychic says something and on the other side it says something else. And, I'm not trying to confuse myself, its just that I have to give you the impression. The psychic impression is that whatever is going there . . . all. right. . . someone within the government knows of the activity. That's a strange state- ment. #00: Well, let me . . let me ask a supplementary question. When you say, knows of the activity I think that we can presume that the customer for this particular enterprise knows something of the operation or is concerned about the operation. Is that what you mean by knows the operation? #99: No. No. I don't. That's not what I mean. #00: Oh. Can you be more precise about what you mean? #99: Yeah. I mean . . . I have to play the double- edge sword again. And when I mean double-edge sword, I mean there seems. . . there is someone in there . . . all right. . . . . . let me rephrase that in my thoughts and I have to give that correctly to you. Its only an example and its the only way I can give it to you because I'm not. . . I'll give it as an example. Let's say that I am a customer. I am a customer. That as a customer I also have a contract from somebody, you know. And that I'm playing the contract as a role so that somebody else would not know what's going on. I'm not referring to what we're doing here, I'm merely referring that this way - there is something here where someone within our government, and I am not saying just the customer knows. . . #00: I. . . I'm a little confused, #99. I didn't follow your example very adequately enough. #99: All right. Let me. . Let me put it this way. And this is only an example to give you. . so that we understand our own jargon. Let us say that the Pentagon got someone to do some work. Here they hired this room or rooms. The work Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- 940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- -W000500940001-4 is going on for the Pentagon, but the people in the room, you know. . there's nothing. they're going on their business in what they're getting. Its for their work. They're doing their work, but its really somebody reporting to the Pentagon. But the others don't know. #00: All right. #99: Do you follow what I'm saying? #6.5: Are you saying that they wouldn't know that they are working for the government? #99: For the government or. . . I'm not saying that nobody knows. I'm merely saying that the implication of the information would go to the government. #00: Okay. #99: All right. Do you follow what I'm trying to say. That's only an example. #00: Okay, but is that. . is an example rather precise in the sense that you said someone in the government knows that there is a contract- ing officer in the Pentagon, who monitors what goes on in the office. Is that what you mean by someone in the government knows? #99: I will have to return that because I've gotta go back to some information that's being :fed to me. #00: Yeah. I thought that we had discussed, yesterday, that the . . that this firm. . or what goes on in the room was in fact sponsored by the government. Do you recall that? #99: I don't recall it. #00: Yeah. #99: You know. . you . #00: You know, this ground sounds familiar so I'm not sure that we're coming up with anything new which is all right. #99: No. I'm merely. I'm merely reputting the input of what I'm trying to restate whatever was said yesterday. Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : Cl 0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-pfflpj-MOO0500940001-4 #00: Well okay, but let's don't worry about what was said yesterday. #99: No no no. I'm not. I'm just saying that I don't remember what I said yesterday and I'm just going back over some of the things. #00: Well, let me make a . . put it in a straight- forward question. Is the activity in room, in this suite, government related in that they are / a contractor that does work for the government? They may do work for other . . . activities, commercial work, but do they do work for the government? #99: The answer is yes. And I don't know in what way. #00: Well, you know, if we don't. . . if it seems to be a unexceptional yes, this. . well yes, that's what they do. . . then of course some one in the government would know, . would know what goes on. #99: Its. . Its more deep than that, #00. Its more deep. It is very. . . . It is very well. . . . I'm not confused, its just that I want. . . . . because you need precision and I want to be very accurate in what we're doing, you know, in here. There are . . . I keep seeing people in this room - more than . . as I'm seeing it now, people working. There are things going on. There are again, papers there. There are all sorts of things. But that's only a front; - you know, partially a front. But there is something much"' deeper for a group of people in that room that are working on something very secret, very private, but there's a leakage on that thing and that's what's troubling me. #00: Okay, well to summarize it and put it in other words see if this is acceptable, #99. That there is a contract that is real, that has some significance, that employs the efforts of many or perhaps most of the other people in this suite. But, either within that contract or a separate. . undertaking is underway, that is more vital to the government, if not to the company of the people working in there. And it is not generally known to all of the employees this. And you have used the term, that the normal operating business or the contract that they are working on is . . provides some sort of cover for the more important, more secretive undertaking. Now is that a reasonable summation v a 2 Approved For Rele se 003/t 9/'0 : ClA-I DP 500940001-4 9 ' r-- Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-R EMAM6F 0500940001-4 #99: Yes, that would be an explanation of what I'm saying. #00: Okay. Can we put a subject matter to either of these endeavors? Either the one that they nominally work on or the one for which that is provide some cover. #99: All I can say that the information in which they put some cover . . is . . . . . how would I put it . . . . . . . if this does not follow the regulaties I want to be as specifically as its clear into my mind. Again, I repeat. Information is passed into this office.. or this suite which is very high or very, very important. Extremely important. And the injection, again, that some of this information that's very important is also leaked out and its coming back over and over again. Whether the customer knows or whatever it is, its still coming back. And, here at this point, comes the number /. I I #00: Okay. That's a good link. To follow that, you're saying that information comes in. That they're going to use in their analysis or some, whatever processing they do? #99: No. Its . . analysis, but something that is transferrable. #00: Okay. Well, .let's go into the process of the . . the people who work there, and let's call them analysts. And just use that generally, whatever. . you know, whatever analytical work it is. They need something to work on, they need something to read or to analyze or to massage. That information comes in. Was that the. . . you said the information comes in is very high; is that - did you mean high in the sense of a security classification, or high in what sense #99? #99: I'd say high in security. #00: Okay. Okay. So classified information and reasonably highly classified information comes in. #99: Right. Uh huh. I have to preface that when you say high, you know, classified information the answer is yes. I have. . let me give you Approved For Release 2003/09/10: IA- RP T_ 01-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- 40001-4 highly classified information. Again, an image comes to my mind but it may. not be related to (not audible). #00: All right. Let's just have it as it comes in #99. #99: As it comes in. Let's say that you were doing a . . . you were gonna send a rocket to the sky and its something new. And lets say that these people were working on some design on this rocket. You know, something to this effect - the design that they're going to put in together. #99: And. . this little piece or whatever it is, all right that's now, that I would consider, you know, highly secretive or highly. . . #00: Um hm. #99: The rest isn't. #00: Okay. An important component part - a vital part. #99: A component part of something. Whether its on a design I'm not sure or whether its a part itself or . . . that's only as an example. #00: Um hm. #99: Something is coming in which . . . no one. If I was gonna put this here, all right, here I am. You'd look at an eraser, but let's say that I could put something in this eraser that makes it highly valuable. And, I would. you'd pass me the eraser, I would not know the difference. Do you follow what I'm trying to say? #00: Only generally #99. #99: Yeah. And you know. . in other words, something is going on which is being unaware by only a certain number of people and it seems very small. Very small (not audible), #00: Okay, but that. . . is that supposed to go on? You see, we have . . . I have a problem with two concepts now. I understand what you're saying. Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CI 0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-AC-ADC1000500940001-4 #99: If this is supposed to go on, the answer is no. #00: Okay. Okay. But I . . . up to this. . up until that statement, I had the feeling that you were telling us that the normal operation of the office covered a legitimate additional, other undertaking. Are you suggesting now that the other undertaking, the more secretive undertaking, is not supposed to go on. #99: Oh, its my wrong. Its my wrong. Its my wrong interpretation. I'm merely saying that some of the things within this under- taking is not supposed to go on. #00: Okay. #99: All right? #00: Okay, so we. . we've established (not audible). #99: Whatever the undertaking is there which very few people know on what is being worked in there. . . #00: Is legitimate. #99: Is legitimate. #00: Okay, but within that operation, what? #99: Something is illegitimate.-" #00: Okay, something is going on within the . . . okay. #99: But remember that the people . . . #00: Then that's where the number . . . . - #99: 1 comes in. #00: And that is the area of the leakage also. #99 : And it appears to me . . . #00: I got just a. . a ,look from you. Is that the area where the leakage takes place? #99: Yes. Yes. And what appears to me is room. It appears as a room 0 All right. Appears '' SG I as a room and I have to say that. Room. The Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 1 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDFi9rQU R 0500940001-4 word Room _ keeps coming back and that's what I'm not . . . See, I don't know whether its a room that they have within . . . because yesterday I drew a. sketch that seemed to be limited. And that, last night, in my sleep, woke up from my sleep a couple of times and everything, that room was too limited for what when I was relaxed. In other words, it looked much longer, maybe exaggerated it longer, but it was much bigger. . than what I had seen. Now. . and there appears and I have to say this, appears because psychically I am not sure. But SG1A there may be - he gave me room 0 but it could be that there is a series of doors opening within that compound off that room, those rooms. SG1A #00: Yeah, that's very commonplace #99. Where you have an entrance that has a number for mailing purposes, for all sorts of practical purposes, but its. . . that's why a suggested going to the concept of a suite. The entrance to suite F____1 is simply that. It is a controlled entrance. And once you get in there, there are hallways that go to separate other rooms, to . . . . you know, the normal variety of facilities that you could expect to find. . to support the number of people that are in there. And . . . #99: You know, I'm getting psychically, to a very crucial point here. . as you're talking #00. #00: Go ahead #99. #99: Okay. Keep going. #00: Well, okay, just let that come forward, but SG1A SG1A what I want you to do is what was suggested off tape that let's, let's try and overview. Let's try a fly in and I want you to . . to go into an #99 Two state rather than to try to do this telepathically. And, a strip off the la ers of the building and simply focus on from a vantage point of above and we'll call it Suite lI And let's see if we can't get another sketch. Let's try to get another verbal description of it and try to get another sketch of this complex. #99: All right. 13 SECRET Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 #00: And, if you can, 1 -1 IN! T 7 the location of #99: All right, I have stripped. . . . . and the whole thing and I'm looking down. First of all, lot me . . . there's no roof over this . , this room now. And all I see is the back wall and the front as if you were going in.. I have to ex. . . I see it, at one side of the building. . . . It is long. I'm looking down and again, I have to repeat, please correct me if I'm wrong - there seemed to be . . . in there what appears and all I can say---I'm looking down on it, it appears there are divisions or rooms. #00: All right. #99: That is strong - that there are divisions or rooms. . or something to this effect here. That it is not . . I am not walking into a big room where there are . . you know, here I. there's a whole big room and there's a lot of people all around. There are separations or divisions. #00: All right. We accept that. #99: Okay. #00: Let me . . . Let me ask a question #99. Program yourself, make s we are dealing with the room the Suite as it looks today. #99; This is what I'm looking at today. #00: Okay. #99: The only -t:hing that I cannot place for you where I am from on top is what are those divisions. I have to put in equasion that they are to me from where I stand and when I stood. . as rooms or divisions. #00: Okay. They could be cubicles without going all the way to the ceiling, the divisions. but they may . . . #99: But they do not employ the whole room. #00: Okay. Now I want you to be able, when you after this to draw us another sketch #99 Approved For ReasleI2M/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 0 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96;QQZ88R000500940001-4 SG1A #00: In Suite LJ what else do you see beside a division of separate rooms or cubicles in that suite? What else is pronounced? #99: One thing is pronounced again. I have to . . which really comes back to me. . . . is one room . . . that's very closed. #00: All right a closed room. #99: A closed room. Or a closed . . . I have to say closed room. 'Cause I keep seeing . , . what appears to be a door with a window or a ,j door . . you know, but I cannot see through the window or something to this effect where I would go into an area which was a, room. SG1A #00: All right. This is one of the rooms inside of Suite IIthat you call closed. Closed means what in significance. . . #99: Its separated from everything else into the room. #00: All right. #99: That's what I'm trying to say. #00: Is there a conferencing facility in there? A conference room. #99: Its not a conference room, but again, adjacent to it seems to be -- I have to say seemed to be - what appears to me to be a place where you would meet, which I would call a conference room. SG1A #00; All right, in Suite 0 what else do you see? #99: Looking at here and now, objects - I see something again : . . . . opened. . . well, its like a drawing, I guess you would call a drawing table or something. At least I see one. If you're asking me . . #00: All right. A drafting table. #99: A drafting table. This is what I see. What its use, I don't know, this is what I'm seeing. I see a man. . . sitting on a . . . something like a stool. #00: All right. r~ Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA=~D m 001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP X500940001-4 #99: All right. #00: Are there any office machines that are pronounced? #99: Again, those squares keep coming in. J #00: Okay. #99: And I don't. . you know, that looks like #00: TV screens? #99: Like TV screens.,/,, #00: All right. #99: I can't tell you how many but I'm saying this. I see. . . I will put at this point that that is . . . if you're asking me for something in there, that is one of the things. #00: Okay. And there are more than one of these squares? Let's get a general number. Is there a half dozen of these squares and are they located together or are they separated or . . #99: No. They're separated because I keep seeing again, people sitting, . . at a desk and there is a square there. #00: Um hm. Okay. Can you see someone functioning with this, this unit? What do they do? Is there a keyboard in front of it? #99: Yes there's a keyboard. It looks, to me, as this would appear to be part of a general work that they were doing. Let me. . #00: Let me give you something to think about #99 and respond. What you've described you know it could. . could be a number of things. it could be a desk terminal computer terminal. It could also be a word processing machine for support personnel to type and make corrections and to edit on a (not audible) screen. Or it could be both of these. It could be a TV monitoring device. It could be a TV set. #99: No. Its not a TV set. That's for sure. 16 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA:BD :PJ0500940001-4 #99: The reason is, that again, I see numbers but,, I cannot see writing, Now, that might be a shortcoming on my part. #00: Urn hm. You're looking at the screens. #99: I'm looking at the screen. #00: Okay, you shift the perspective and I want you to say down because . . . #99: I'm seeing this, now remember, I'm. . I'm. over here on the top looking down. I'm not into the room, T'm looking down. #00: Okay, well stay there then and tell me about what other machinery, if any, you see besides these squares, tv like things. #99: I'm going to eliminate . . . for you the general things that could be . . because like typewriters . . #00: Yeah. Not interested in those. #99: I'm only picking out the . . what I'm seeing. I am still troubled by this high thing that I'm seeing against the wall. #00: Okay, is that . . let me get an orientation to help me. As you hover over this from your perspective, the suite may be irregularly shaped, that is there may be . . . it may not be a perfect square or perfect rectangle, but is it more rectangular in shape or more square in shape if you generalized the edges? Is it longer. . . #99: Longer than small. #00: Okay, so it is more of a rectangle than a square. #99: Yeah. As I said in the beginning, it is. . . I am not walking in a cubicle this big or a room this big. I am walking in something much longer which I did not really focus in yesterday because I was trying to get . . . apparently trying to see an area more than the length than when I was jumping. . it was from one area to another. #00: All right. Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 U #99: Do you have any question #6.5? Please ask them as we go along. . because it becomes very . , I'm at a crucial point here and putting, as you're asking me, time wise and your questions would be extremely important if there's something that you listened over the tape you know that will get me into the things that you want. #6.5: Okay. Again, I'm interested in pursuing the same thing that #00 was talking about. That piece of equipment that you're seeing as high. Okay. I'd like to get more details on that if you can. Maybe you'll have to move yourself closer. #00: Yeah. Shift yourself as necessary #99, to give a . . a detailed description as you go. #99: Yeah. Would you just turn this off for one second because when I shift, I'd like to . . . I want to be . . We're getting away from the scene but I. . Its just . . . that I'm very nervous, more than nervous and more than . . . its a negative thing and when I . . . had the picture that was one of the things. . that was/ the first thing and that first impression got me that it was something real bad. All right. But within the compound, the whole thing, the operation, it does not look - but I could not get away. . . . #00: Let me ask you a, question about that #99. And we're referring to . .. because of a pause in the tape, to a, feeling an overall feeling of what you had previously reported was a heavy high tension feeling. That. . and earlier yesterday you had said that . . as if they were almost afraid to breathe. You. . . today you get that feeling again. #99: Again. Very strongly. #00: All right. #99: But again, added this dimension that its negative for me. #00: Okay, is this coming from . . . Is it possible that this is essentially one, that you're picking this up from one person. Not from everybody, or is this a. collective . . . . you know, what's the source? Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP 18 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 r #99: The source is . . . . The source is the atmosphere that I'm picking from Room #00: Okay, but, you know, we accept this #99 but is , . is there one malfactor in the room who is essentially the cause of this? #99: I have to sa.y. . . if you're saying one, I have to say more than one. #00: All right. #99: But I'm not saying all of them. #00: Okay. Well is it the cadre of people who are working on this smaller project? #99: No. Its something dealing with . . a leakage of some information. Let me put it this way. This seems to be the overtone message that's coming that I have to know what that is. I don't know what you're looking for. As such. But the overtone message is coming to me is some information that is very valuable, that is very extremely valuable, from the project that is being worked here, is being leaked out.1 #00: Well let me make a suggestion #99 and evaluate this. Understandably there is a person on site who is. . who is controlling or is directing or at least knows about the leakage and he or she is highly apprehensive about it, that that they or he will be or she will be discovered. And this is the negative feeling that you are pick-- ing up. I mean thatperson is under great tension on a . . on a minute-by-minute basis. . . that they will lose everything if its discovered. Is that the source of the tension? A possible source. #99: My not and hesitatio yes. Bu in my ps n is not because the t you're speaking of ychic mind I see more answer is one person than one person. #00: All right. We can. accept that. #99: Would you accept. . more, you know. #00: Sure. 19 SGI A SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 #99: I must return and I don't know whether I mentioned - a woman keeps coming back to me. #00: Um bm, You mentioned two women yesterday. #99: No. This is a special . . . . Something. #00: Well tell us more about this special woman. Is she an employee? Is she in the room right now? In the suite now? #99: She's in the room right now. #00: Okay. But does she regularly work there? Does she work there eight hours a day? Or is she a visitor? #99: All of a sudden this woman appears in this room, you know. I But as she appears / SG I the room. . . the number ~. . RG1 (TURN OVER TAPE TO SIDE 2) A #00: I'd like to have you try something if you can do this. (Not audible) take that woman out of the . . of the suite and tell me what happens to the atmosphere. . the level of tension or what. Does it change when she is not there? #99: It is decreased because one other person, all right, . . is calmer. #00: Well, let's take . #99: If you're asking me, Does the atmosphere decrease, I have to answer yes. #00: Okay. But let's look for the common, more commonplace solution to this. That it really is . . it may involve security to some degree but in fact, let me suggest that it is a matter of personality. That when this woman comes in, there is a feeling of antagonism based on personality rather than a security leak or f anything like that. #99: No. 1 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CI8rDP96- Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDE.500940001-4 #00: 06 You don't like that. That as a hyposis. #99: No . No. #00: Okay. Well, the person . . , the person. . . let's try to identify the person besides the woman who comes in and brings another level of attention and is associated with = and is associated with the leak. Is that other . . is the person, the other person or persons male or female? #99: The other one is a male., #00: Okay. . Are. . Can. you narrow it down to two? The leak is associated with a woman who comes in on occasion and a man. Is there any other . is there a third or fourth party to the leak? #99: At this point, I have to say this is all that comes to my mind. SG1A #00: All right. The man is he . . does he spend his working day An #99: Yes. Yes./ #00: Okay. SG1A #99: But again you're saying =and the number flashes again -through my mind. SG1A SG1 A SGI A #00: All right. #99: I'm making these #6.5 because I'm gonna have to place what this =whether this room SG1 is there or is it in another place - I'm being A logical here - I mean If this = is there, SGI SG1A A&GI #00: Okay. Well, let me ask the question. How do A you feel? Is the number of a compartment SGI or of another room? Or let put it this way, is Q . internal in 0 Or is it not, is A it out of that building completely? #99: This is what I don't know right now. And I'll have the answer for you. #00: Okay. Okay. I want to shift gears slightly. #99: Lets go back to . . Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 2:1 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 #00: Lets go back to that machinery and-position yourself anywhere you want - inside the machinery, outside, facing it, but in such a position as to give us whatever level details you can concerning it. #99: I'm going to give it to you starting out from the top as I strip everything. I see it lets say that I'm here walking, lets say that I'm here - and I'm giving you now - I'm SG1A going into room 0 And I'm over the top. And the equipment is to my left: And it appears that I am at the end or I cannot go any further than this equipment. #00: All right. Its against a wall, is that a fair ? #99: I would assume its against a, wall., but I do not see the wall. #00: Because why? Its covered by the equipment? #99: Because the equipment seems to be extremely high to me. #00: Okay. #99: Now, again, I'm going to get off the psychic. Sometimes my psychic may exaggerate the length of the equipment and I have to make that known. #00: Okay, but . . well we can clear that up very quickly. Look at the floor and look at the ceiling - does the equipment go from the floor nearly to the ceiling? #99: The answer is . . as I'm seeing it, the answer v seems to be yes. #00: So it is #99: High. #00: . . assuming a nominal 8 foot ceiling, the equipment is, you know, approaches the ceiling. #99: It is not. . Let me put it this way, its not the height of a cabinet file, its much higher J and much broader. Now, let me go back. And its wide. #00: Okay. Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIADP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 #99: But its big. #00: Okay. Are theremodules, that is, is it solid or do you see that in fact there are. there are a number of the same type of . . . of. . of machinery that is you can see where they've been stacked next to each other - lined up next to each other. That's all one big thing? #99: Its all one big thing.' #00: Okay. I . . . I'm gonna need some more details. #99: This is all (.not audible) and I keep seeing needles. Circles, needles, keep seeing something / that your. . . knobs. . #00: Knobs, okay what else besides knobs? #99: And then as I'm approaching towards that there seems to be like . . That's this part of it and this part over here is a little different. I don't see any knobs or anything else that's solid. #00: Um hm. #99: And down . . . As if something was coming out on paper. #00: All right. #99: Now, in my minds eye, I'm also seeing somebody operate a type. #00: A keyboard of some sort. #99: A keyboard, But I cannot put it that the key- 1 board is on this. #00: All right. #99: It seemed to be away from it. But I don't know where, #00: All right, #99, I want you to follow some wires. I'm assuming that the machinery is powered by electricity. Can you tell us . , you know, is the machine plugged into an electrical outlet somewhere? Can you see those wires? Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-0'9'IIQM(p940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-PgRIQ~;,QQ788R000500940001-4 #99: Hold it! Hold it! Something. The information that comes from there does not come from the u" room itself Y- its fed in. PAUSE #00: Something is fed into the machine. #99: Fed in! #00: Okay. But are you cancelling that something,," comes out of the machine also. #99: No. No. No. That's not what I'm saying./ #00: Let me try to help you #99. Is the machine receiving information as from an antenna. You know as a radio receiver would receive informa- tion. #99: No. Somebody. The only way I can explain it to you is . , . . what appears to me. Lets say that here I am . . . No the example is not right. All right. Lets say I was working on. . like I've worked on Wall Street. #00: All right. #99: And suddenly over my . . information is being fed without my being . . . having to send information out. It does not mean that information cannot be sent out,of that room. But I'm merely saying that the way I'm seeing it in this moment of time is that information is coming in. Now, this . . I don't know. . its part of their work. The information is coming in. I'm not saying that its . . #00: Okay. #99: You know, but it appears part of the work. That's what I'm trying to say. #00: Yeah but that. . you know, we've . . . That is reasonably commonplace, you know. Information is coming in. What's the signif. . . you know why are you making o it?s Approved For Release 200/09/10 : CIA&6:dFOh000~Y4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP 0940001-4 the significance of it? #99: The significance of this is that some of the / information in here is a code. Or something. #00: Is the . . is the. . apparatus is the machine associated with code or incription or decription. Is that the function of the machine? #99: No, its not the, . its not the. . the primary function its feeding these people information. Now within this information -- remember yesterday I said that I was trying to find out how some- thing was getting in and out - #99: It appears to me now, and I'm not certain, all right, it only appears because of the psychic impression that I have to say this, I'm making conclusions. That some messages have to come in on that. Psychically! #00: Okay. Well, lets. . . I'm still a little confused. We're talking about the function of the machine. #99: We're talking about the function of the machine. I . . What I am seeing is something coming out of this machine which does riot come directly from the room. Again, comes in. #00: Okay. Well, lets. . . I'll have to leave that. #99: I. . . merely. . I'm just giving you as it comes in to me. #00: Okay. #6.5 do you have any questions in that area. #6.5: Min min. #00: I frankly am in a state of slight confusion as to the role of the machine. #6.5: So am I. Why don't you just leave it. Listen, go from that wall all the way across, okay, like from here to there. #99: From here to there. Okay. #6.5: And go to...the other wall. What is there? #99: What I'm seeing against the other wall is Approved For Release 2003/09/10: C111 A,0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP9 0001-4 #99: I got to separate myself from the other wall. All right. PAUSE I'm over this wall. . . #00: Now this is the wall opposite the machine banks. #99 there's a possibility that there's more than one wall op. . . that is that . . I'll put it in a question. Is there a wall rather immediately in front of the machine banks? And then, you know, which then -there's a door-- way you can go through and you . . . and. . I'm not sure which. wall you want him to go to. #99: He wants. . He wants me to go to the end of the room. #6.5: #00: SG1A #6.5: SG1A #99: #00: SG1A #99: The end of the room. Of the suite, okay. Okay. The end of that is where I see this separate office which is closed, you know, an office closed, or a cubicle or some, . where you would go in. #00: And who's office . or what is the purpose of that? PAUSE #99: At this point no answer comes. #00: Uni hm. #99: I do know - hold it _ I do know that it is' an important male person. #00: Urn hm . #99: You're asking me who, I don't know who. 26 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP'` (3500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00 #99: Adjacent to it is also another room. #00: Well, is it important in the sense of a #99: Its important. . Its important in the sense that it appears to me that its sound proof' or something because I cannot hear what is going on, and is being said in that room. #00: Okay. So there. . apparently there's some more attention to security there, but I'm after the importance of the male person in there. Is he important? #99: The importance is that he is in control of the whole . . . #00: You're saying that he's the manager of the / office or manager of. . #99: Yes. Yes. #00: . . of the operation. #99: Okay, yeah of the operation. This is what I'm getting. #00: Okay. #6.5: Okay, and this other area that's sound proof that's adjacent to his office or part of his office? #99: Its part of his office. It is. , I would have to say more like, its his office. #6.5: Yeah. Lets explore that area and tell me what's in. that area, in his office. #99: Cut for a minute, I've got to go to the bathroom. 27 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-R 00940001-4 #99: Yeah. What came to me. . this sound proof is that certain plans for certain designs of certain things which I have not yet put my finger on, is talked about. #00: Okay. #99: All right. More than that the room does not appear as an office to me. Its . . . very how would I put it comfortable. Its . . I'm now walking into a man sitting at a desk with a chair behind it. And you know I'm sitting down and he's asking me questions.,/ I feel more comfortable than that in this sound proof room. #00: Okay. #99: All right. He does have a monitor in the room. But . . what I'm trying to . . What I'm looking at into the room is . . . . . his operational . . . . . . his operational work. The designs that are. . . the work that's coming to me as I'm observing in the room, they are not designing or working on a project. They are not working on a project that is something that is completed like a tank Completion work of a tank. Or something. Its not like that. They're working on something which is part of a very advanced . . . . . war . . war. . I would say military more than war. . . . design of something that is military and that is . . . not big. By that I mean its not . I'm not building a tank; I'm not building a gun or something like that. I'm building something that goes with something else. That's what the . . the work is being done. If you follow that, you know what I'm trying to say now. #00: Well, yeah I follow that and lets try to build on that a.. little bit. Its small and its a component that goes with something else. What is . . When you put them together, what is the function? Is it in . . involved in what? Is it a weapon or is it not a weapon? Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIk-f$D ft%TM0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96.Gt Mff 40001-4 #99: It is a weapon, or it can be used as a weapon. #00: Well, all right. Let me give you another alternative. Is it involved in communications? #99: If you are asking me. #00: I'm sort of testing . . . . . . #99: No. no. no. I mean what do you mean by communications? #00: Well, I mean is it a . . part of a. . of a piece of equipment by which information is sent or received? #99: No. No. #00: Its not communication equipment? #99: No. No. #00: You're satisfied that it is part of a weapon system. #99: Its part . . . I'm saying that its part of a / weapon system meaning that I keep seeing water. that I don't understand whether its only one part of this -- I keep seeing water. And . . I keep seeing that this would, be tested in something that has to be in water." #00: It is tested in something that has to be in water. #99: Or it goes by . . yeah, I'm gonna stat:e it the same way, tested in something with water. It is not something that is already marketed. #00: Okay. Is what they're working on an improve- ment of something like it that already exists or is it a new component of a weapon system or a weapon system? #99: I would have to say its a.n extension and if you want to use improve as an extension I will accept that. #00: Well, okay, you don't . . . . . I. . You know, I . . I was just trying to get . . #99: No. No. I understand. #00: . . give you food to . Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIAP9 00940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4ii ~ 3 ^ #99: These are things - I've come from the bathroom and I'm Just giving you them as . . you know, as they're coming out. #00: Ha ha. Okay. I think we better move our working place in there. #99: All right. #6.5: I once made a mistake like that. I made my briefing up in a bathroom and it went over well so then everytime I have to give a briefing, my folks tell me Go to the bathroom, #00: Okay, #99, this is . . #99: Let me . . let me . . give you the word that comes to me. . #00: All right. #99: For whatever meaning it is, I don't know. it said submarine. The word submarine., #00: All right. Okay. #99: But. . it does not . . the word submarine, I don't know what it means now, and I want you to realize that I don't know what it means. #00: All right. I . . let inc challenge that, #99, because, you know, this is a tangent - appears to be a tangent. Can you. . . are you. . the word submarine comes in. Is that the business of this office, to be involved in submarines? Or is there just some relationship with the thing being developed in some means? #99: Its in some relationship developed with sub- marines because I could not put a battle ship in it. #00: Okay, you. . you've gone to Naval weapon systems now. #99: But. . . the. . I know I've gone to Naval weapons. . #00: Um hm. Its all right with me. If that's what's coming in. 3-ft IL Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA P96 00788R0 500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : Cl #99: No no no no. All I'm saying is . . What I'm saying . water, I'm saying that its . we're talking about Naval and I'm talking about, you know, under the Naval would be a battleship, but it has nothing to do with a battleship or . unless . . , I'm eliminating more than putting . . . #00: Okay. Okay. #99: Because I'm trying to narrow down, in my mind, what it meant that this dealt with water and its not a battleship. #00: Okay, but lets . . Okay, make sure that these are psychic inputs, #99, rather than logical ones. And . . . #99: Let me tell you what logically. . not logically, what psychically came to me. #00: All right. #99: And then we can work from there. It is a component part of an extension of something that deals with water. In water. Or with water. It is not . . . #00: Now see, you shifted on us now. Previously, I understood you to say, it is a, component part of a weapon. . . #99: Of a weapon. #00: Of a weapon system. #99: Yes a weapon system. #00: You're still staying with that. #99: Yes, I'm staying with that. Because I'm visualizing something in my mind #00: All right, now go ahead and say your statement. #99: All right. And . . the water. . something about water came in after that. And the word submarine. Now, I have to say that submarine might be a logical thing or it might be a psychic - I am V not sure. And I want to clear that with you. #00: Okay. All right, well let me ask you, if the . . this component. . or part of the weapon system, if the water relationship is . is - that it will only be used in connection with water Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP9~ 40001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96 p07.$800Q500940001-4 #99: The answer is no. #00: Okay. Otherwise it could be used on land as well as on water. Is the linkage with,,' water . . . #99: An important factor." #00: An important factor. #99: Yeah. #00: But is it important in the sense that it is associated with . . with testing the system rather than applying it when it gets issued to the field or to the operating troops? Do you have any feeling in this area? #99: Yeah. Let me put it this way. One, it would be used, what . . it appears psychically, it says that it would be more, of more value in water than in . . . in an airplane or on a ship or something like this. See, I'm not making. . I cannot . . I'm seeing the part. #00: Um hm. Well, describe the part. #99: All right. Its a very small thing, Maybe. this big. . . #00: All right. You have your hands about a . . and a . . and you've focused them as if its a circle. Is it a globe or is it a ball sort of . #99: Its. . Its. . Its . . Its long.f #00: Well, lets just . . lets just ease the tension. Sketch it for us please #99. #99: Well, I don't know if this is in its complete form, but it appears . . . . . . I cannot finish it here, I don't know why. And 'there appears to be . . . #00: Now are you drawing this to scale; is this the actual size of it? #99: Yeah. Just about the actual size of it. Yeah. #00: Okay. Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA?DP96- Q940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-R -4 #99: All right. Its not big. #00: All right. I don't know what were going to end up with. #99: Yeah. Yeah. On the drawing board, it will probably be something. . something as this. #00: Well, this is an 8 by 10 piece of paper. Do you mean your drawing? #99: My drawing here, all right, is just telling you that its a minature or a small, its not as big as this paper. #00: All right. So, it looks like something four / inches by two inches, something like that. #99: Something. And there appears to be little dots. And there seemed to be some kind of wire and V' I'm slipping that into something. #00: Okay, are we . . . I want to make sure that you're not . . xraying this. Are we. . . if I picked it up and looked at it, is this what I would see without taking it apart? #99: No. No. You may see the dots, but you would not see the inside. #00: The wires. #99: The wires. #00: Okay, the wires are internal. #99: Internal. This is . . The covering of this is of a metal. . but its not a metal that I would . . . . its a special type of metal... #00: Okay, that will be. . . did you say that would be slipped inside of something? #99: Slipped into #00: All right. Is that an explosive in any sense? #99: Would you rephrase the question? May I rephrase the question? Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-146P9644 940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-007188000500940001-4 #99: If I were to rephrase the question: Would I~ this add to the explosion of something that went off, the answer would be yes, #00: Okay. But that . , Now let me ask questions about your statement. Is it . . . a fuse in the sense that it initiates an explosion? That it is a. . . say that . . a component that senses a target and sends a signal to the explosive device that now is the time to detinate? Or does it have anything to do with fusing? #99: I don't know #00. It keeps coming back that I see water and it deals with water. #00: Okay. #99: Let me . , go back on . . . #00: But t h a t ' , - , .. . . I. . . I . .accept that and lets just sort of set that aside as an agreed . . it has something to do with water. #99: Yeah. What I'm zeroing in right now - now I have to make you understand that not everybody in that office is aware of this. #00: All right. #99: I am picking this -up from the office of the man that we were talking about. All right. #00: All right. Okay. We'll accept that. #99: Now, I don't . . . I neither believe. . that its built there. #00: Well, then what do they do there? Are they in . . . what phase of this development goes on in that . . at least in his office? #99: Maybe I should rephrase that. . . the assembly . . the assembly of this - and I have some- thing. . . Let me put it this way #00, I have to say this, psychically again, again. I am. I have a psychic feeling that this project of this thing is not finished. Do you follow what I'm saying? #00: All right. (% To C a% 34 _11~ Wig too 0 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96 W,&FN00500940001-4 #99: That its put together, but its not finished and what I'm picking up is how its going to be used, in what way its going to be used. I think that's what I'm. . . I feel. strongly not think, feel strongly, this is what. . . ~' what I'm seeing is a finished product. #00: Okay, that's important but lets shift back. #99: But I'd . I'd . . And what I'm seeing. is that . what is happening is that. . when I say that its not built there, I'm merely saying that the drawing is almost complete, of being completed. And I'm speaking about here and now. #00: Okay, world it be fair #99, to say that they are designing parts of this in that office? #99: I will accept that. #00: Okay. #99: But I will also accept. . . I have to add something. It appears to me. . . and when appears I mean seeing psychically. . is there appears to be at least one of these with this man that I'm seeing in this room which we're talking soundproof. #00: Okay. A prototype or a hand made model or something. #99: Its more than a handmade. #00: Well I say that versus production. #99: All right. Okay. But this off. . . this is . . . . It is a . . . Its something and its for the use. . . . . It could be used in other ways also #00. #00: What other ways #99? You mean in other . . in more than one weapon system? Or . . ? #99: In more than one weapon system. #00: Okay. Or do you also mean that it could be used in . . other than in a weapon system? #99: No. It could be in . . I will have to put It can be used in a weapon system and it could be used outside of a weapon system, It does not always mean that it is for the . . . Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA '~P96jAQP 0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000500940001-4