Document Type: 
Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 
Release Decision: 
Original Classification: 
Document Page Count: 
Document Creation Date: 
November 4, 2016
Document Release Date: 
April 25, 2000
Sequence Number: 
Case Number: 
Content Type: 
PDF icon CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7.pdf838.31 KB
Su~ S i d Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 A. All right, the vault has designs for certain egdipt`ment, is one of the two, things, and also hastpicture~s three,it also has devices that have been worked on. S. All rights are these functional devices, or are they models of the devices, or are they both? A. I would say bath. How, there also, also seems4o be something like tapes. S. Okey, are these magetic tapes or paper tapes? A. I have no answer for you; I know that it just says tapes. S. Okey, but do you understand rationally the difference between a paper tape and a magetic tape? A. No, I do not. S. All rights the magetic tape is what we are transcribing this on right now. ,,, paper tape is l i ke '.the tkre- tape used on Wall Street, and used on some computers to iNput information and to get information out. A. From what I coulUsee it would be more matic than ticker tape. S. All right. Is the tape that is in the vault associated in some way with the machines in the suite? A. The answer is yes. S. In what way is it associated? A. I don't knbj~dt this momement, Scott. I know that there is some connection between the machine and , concerning the machine and the information that is put into the vault. S. Well. okey, did you generalize it . . ? A. No, no, no. S. Specifically;the tapes? A. Tape is one of them, but I'm going, I have to say that as we were working there is more information that,thg~e I merely associated ... but I'm trying to figure out psychically where these tapes are from. They;~are connected, but do they come out of the machine is the answer which; don't have. S.Well, okey, they could either come out of the machine or they could be, lets say, digested or used by the machine for analysis. They could be both put into the machine and then become another tape, be an output form the machine. A. Because again in the machine I keep seeing some information coming Q&taroved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 S. And again tell us what that looks like when it comes out. A. It looks like a piece of paper with something on;~ its you know,, like it has been tabulated. S. All right, tabulation as in numbers? A. Well, wkat ix xaaxuaw ami what I have seen before and what I see now is stil3, umbers. I cannot see any writing. S. Okey, all right, that is consistant.there. All right, the pictures in the vault, as in photographs, you said photographs I believe. A. Uh huh. S. Are these a particular type of photograph, and by that I mean are they aerial photography, or grpund photography,or both,or what? A. Well, they are, but there are also other photographs of, how would I put it, very selected spots and options (?) is the word that comes S. Okey, are they photographs of the devices which they have some . . A. Relationship ? I would have to say yes, S. Okey, but in addition are there other types of photographs? A. There are other photographs but I'm not sure what they are, I know that they are photographs. S. All right, I would like to know that . . . if you would put that back A. Would you keep that in note, maybe while we are driving it will come out. S. Okey, now the third thing that Col Watt wanted was a description of the area around the building. I think in fairness to what we are doing we should not try to answer that because we are close to the building and we have looked at a map of the area and so tba* anything , either the questions that I might ask or any of the answers that you might give could be based upon rational knowledge. . . A. But let us make also a note that I, the sketch I drew ib he came in/ Perhaps . . . S. We will bring these, share these with him. A. That are very, seem to be close to some of the things, S. Okey, okey. All right Alex, is there any other thing,now that we are as close as we are going to be able to get to the building? A. The only thing I can repeat is what I repeated this afternoon and this morning and it seems stronger - a sense of urgency to find out the Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 leakage in that building, that's all I want. If nothing else comes out of this that would be the most important factor involved. S. Okey, all right, we will secure and drive out and if you get any other impulses we will turn it on and activate it yourself. A. Okey . . . . . . Some minutes later while driving away from the site . A. (?) feel right now as R psychicallyas~an impulse is that the person, the man that is carrying this may dis~appear,or pronounce dead,or something like this. S. Oh, A. This is what I'm feeling. S. Well now,let us talk this over, Is device the young man who you think has and be killed? A. The emotion is yes. S. What is . . the person who is carrying this dis,'appeared or will dis,aappeared A. I don't know ; it is very emotional, Scott, S. Does that appear psychic ix put? A. Yes, its, its . . . S. Okey, then there is to be wrapped,'.up then, at this point.and I don't know . . . some possibility that the,Othat operation A!s ?oi>ng that;'if that in fact has happened,the bug is, will not come back into the area. A. If it has happened, it has picking up, all I can say is, S. But you . . . can we agree not come back, urgency. that . . but I don't know what I am I want you to go ahead in now, Alex, delibe~rly go ahead in time, Will the device come into the Army's hands, will they locate . 2 A. No, unless they do something they will not. S. Well, okey, but what can they do and when can they do it? A. I don't know, I don't know.'?his is what I'm trying to figure outi S. Okey. Well, there is one thing to batch the person responsible . . . I guess we can say thiShcogically,if the agent in place is still there, and for reasons that are yet somewhat obscure to us they decide to get rid of the of the person who is the carrier of the device, it is something they can do again later, implant another device in the same sort of . . Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 A. The same sort of cover. S. Or some other cover, use the same mode. I am just logically saying this. A. All right, there is something that crime to me. I spoke about one man being white, theretis another person that appears oriental to me. I don't know how to explain that. I don't know whether . . .all I can say is tha, the word is oriental, all right ? I cannot say Chinese, Japanese; I cannot say what it is. S. But what is the signficance? A. There is something important here that I have to put together. S. Okey. A. I just want to make a note of that, that I try to come back to that. S. Well,is the oriental a normal employee of the office? A. Yes, of the office. S. Are there any other orientals working there? A. I don't know. S, It would be nice if you could tell us,because that would be a positive. identification of a unique individual. A. But I don't know what this orientallerson$ has in this whole thing. - - - - - - pause - - - - A. I've not had a psychic emotion like this in a couple of months, and the last time that I had before this session . . . . my question is: has any young man, I'm not talking about here and now, I get a feeling, has ever left this post and no word has ever heard from it and nothing has been done because of its dis%appearance? S. Well, this is a very large post,,. A. No, I mevely mean. . S. You mean within the area (Secure area where building 303 is located) A. That area S. 333, A. Yea. The thins here that is asking, I keep hearing a disappearance, but it is not connected directly with what I am seeing now ; it just an impression, that's all I'm asking, you know. It may come out later for what this means, connected or in (non) connected I don't know, but I just . . . . (' J,, ~ c ) Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 A o6e ISF?rf Fs ew'0(floo/b yciA*D t6tOF8$P,0 061recordi~ mike being used was failing, and not recognized unti after the ing. Side 6, taped in the morning of 10 September 1981 A. (Unintelligible) S. Yes, you said there was a, you identified two women. A. Not the one in the conference room. S. You didn't give much on her; you said there was a second woman, and I frankly would have to replay the tape to get whatever you did say, but I recall that there was not much description of her other than she was older than the one (unintelligible) A. (Unintelligible) S. Where is she going to come back into play now, in what way? A. Well, she (unintelligible ) in a number of ways, I just don't want them to miss that because (unintelligible) You see, what is happening here first of all, the people who want the information either believe orl Ag':eCfk?R6Pbta-d 7>'> gb67b694666% eyes, (?) Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Hazel maybe? Light. S. All right . Skin? A. White, fair, almost babyish. S. Okey, any distinguishing marks that you would ordinarily see that y6Th associate with him? Sbar~ness of features? A. There is no sharpness of features, but sharpness of character. By character, personality. Joe College. You know what I mean. S. How about his bearing, the way he walks? A. (?) This is what I mean (?) S. So you say he has an upright bearing and sort of marches out rather than, than, not slouchy at all. A. No. very, let me put it this way, irould put him as a typical Madison Avenue type, Wall Street. S. Where does he live; can you get an impression, immediately around the area where he works, or does he live in Virginia, Washington, D.C. Maryland? A. (? ? ?) He is married. S. Married. A. I believe that he has. children, maybe two. S. Sex of children? A. I don't know. S. Young children? A. Young, I would give you, running around. S. Are they pre-school? Are either of them in school? A. It would appear that either pre-school,or that one has started school. S. Does he commufte for a long distance to work, or medium distance,or short distance? A. No answer at this time. S. And no location of where he lives. A. No location. Let me put it this way, I know that he uses a car and goes off base (?) S. Does he car-pool; does he drive himself? A. He drives himself, because I only see one (?). S. What is the make of the car? Color of the car? A. (?)(no make or color given) S. Okey haws, this person you say was reasonably recently recruited by someone to be an agent in place. What country recruited him? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 A. ? (very short, non country answer) S. All right. A. It appe that (?) information that it would be paid for, but I don't even know,jwhat country it is, is that possible? S. It is possible that he is deceived, that someone might even think that he is working for the United States. There are a number of recruiting devices,,but let's don't go into that. I wan to cut through all of that, and regardless of who he thinks he is working for, actually what country is behind it? A. I'll have to return to that because I'm at that point , you know,in my, you know how my mind works to get through a point (?). S. Okey, but let me try to program you a little bit on, . . it is possible that he was approached by a country and he is convinced, that he may not think that he is doing anything traftorious at this pointy that he was approached by someone who convinced him by documentation or by referals that thee person that approached him is a member of Army counter-intelligence, and that he is being used to1test the security of the office, when in fact that is a cover for recruitment and that he is , that he is, that person is working for an alien government. Just a second, let's clear the dog out of here. A. It appears to me that this information is going to certain people in which in turn they sell that information tp a customer; can this be possible? S. Yes, this is possible. A. It seems to be the way that it is, and it is not a direct (?) (country ?) (Not) Russia, China, Lybia ti* or any country in the Middle East. S. All right, give me some details about this group, are they American citizens or a mixed group, or what? A. Its a mixed - well, you knowit, again psychic emotion, and when I say psychic emotion I mean something with impact, it looks like, and when I say looks like I mean it is. They are not foreigners, although there are one or two which I think from their faces to be foreign, they look like Chinese or Japanese, you know, I'm not saying that they are, I'm merely saying that t it is an American group with foreign people in it, in which thay can transfer this information. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 S. Okey, but it is essentially it is a private enterprise. Is that what you are saying? A. That is what I am saying. It is something so different to me, you know in (?) that is I'm confused. S. Okey, don't worry about whether it is sta.rtUhing or conceivable or CA, Oto gre theft headquartered? is conceiv6b he. Where is this group located, w sa ou A. Well, the venal headquarters ashington is Washington. S.Where about in Washington? A. I don't know, all I could see was (?) in my mind whether it was this building or that building. S. Okey, are you talking about Washington, D.C.? A. Yea, Washington, D.C. An office that appears to be a l4gitim office. S. Okey now, let's try to be precise, the Washington, D.C. area including Maryland and Virginia. . . A. No. Washington, the city of Washington, D.C. S. The political entity of Washington, D.C. A. Washington, D.C. where the capitol is. S. Do they have any ther meeting places anywhere else in the United States;' dr the world? A. The answer to that is, the only word that comes to me is , and I don't know whether it'means anything is "net . . "network." S. All right, network. A. And thq reason I see that is that in my mind there are lines. S. Okey, let me change the question from meeting places; do they have any other officesl in other places in the Unites States or anywhere else in the world? A. The answer is yes. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 S. Okey, then the network you have a psychic impressaion of lines as if there is a - linkages - okey let's stop this line of inquiry and if theArmy is interested we can pick it up later. I want to get more identification of the second person about whoml you have strong feelings. This is the young man who may be carrying or perhaps did carry the device which was the transmitter. You describe him as a young man before. Can we have a pick up on that description and give us as much detail as possible . . . A. -- - - - - - after a pause and discussion off tape - - - S. We have been discussing this description in size and the location of the transmitter, and Alex is now making a sketch of it,larger than life size. A. Andin it is a very smalVdot S. This is. . A. This is, let us say S. Well, what is this thing? A. This thing looks like something within the device the person is carrying, all right, one of the trans-systems, and within that system . . . the system has - like a little cartridge. S. Okey, but I want to know this, yesterday yam and this is on the other side of the tape, you came up with the suggestion that it was a computer.. A. All right S. A hand held computer. A. It's like a little computer. S. All right is that what ?ak that is? A. No, no, this is not the computer. S. That is something inside the computer. A. That is inside the computer. S. Okey A. It looks like a little car3trige,very small, all right? S.~ike a battery maybe. A. Like a, but its very small, like a battery but4ery small. S. Okey A. Its something like the pin of a needle, the head of a needle. S. Okey, but that's that little dot. AAroQWF6r a k@ 2606/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 S. Okey, but I want to know that this oblong thing is? A. That oblong,t its just my image of something that looks like inside of whatever it is, the computer or whatever they are carrying. S. That's a component part A. A component part in it. It is very samll. S. Okey, xamw now draw the computer around it that so that we know where, where that is. Is it in the center, or one corner or one end, or what? A. Okey, can we shut that off? S. Yea. A. Note that it really doesn't fully belong into this, not that he always feels have any doubt about what I was saying. What Dr. Osis said that that some of the things are so outrageous and so way out that those are the things that are really Kaa1t- you get on the (?) and that's how I feel about what I just tol& you. I mean it seems so out, but that's the way I feel about it, psychically.. S. Okey, w}at we are talking about and what was off the recorder for a short time was a discussion of solid state circuitry. Alex feels very strmngly, psychicallyithat something that he can best describe nowr that appears and may be a hand-held calculator, or some device that appears that way is the receptor of a transmitter. The transmitter itself is exceedinglj small, very small, pin head size. And appears is embedded or is a disguised part of a normal electronic oomponent. He fax feels also that this is activated wka xtkw that the transmitter is turned on by the switch that normally turns on the device let's say the calculator, and by extension is therefore only used when it is turned on, and when the calculator or device is turned off, then it is not transmitting. Is this correct? A. That is correct S. And that this device has been unwittingly carried, that is,,the transmitter has been unwittingly carried into the suite by a young man whoes description has been given. That there is an employee, also relatively young, but what, older than the man carrying the device, this is the agent in place - - the relative Apo ell o~49 a @?2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 A. One is older than the other. S. Okey, and which is older ee=- -, the agent in place? A. The agent in place, the man carrying is the younger. S. 2kwyx Is the younger, okeyd A. Now I have to say that the man carrying - it is unknown to him. S. Rkay Right, we have that. All right now, the next issue, Alex, is one we have faced before, we have gone reasonably fart. you have reached a block on this. And this concerns the issue of time. The young man, it is suggested on another tape, that the young man carrying this, and /just for purposes of conversation call it a calculator, hand calculator - - the man carrying this hand calculator is the man who you feel will take a trip or has taken a trip, which may end up or has ended up in his death, being killed. Alex, has this happened, or it is it something to happen in the future? or may happen in the future? A. ? ? I don't know. S.,hat is perfectly all right, always an acceptable answer. A. It's just that - again I have a psychic emotion on it, a psychic emotion - - whenever I have a psychic emption and I have to say that, but I don't know ifxtkw whether the man is dead, already d . . (?) it can be stopped. S. The point isAAlex e to lay a additional burden on you, pressure, but to make it obvious, if it has already happened) if the young man has taken his trip, and has not returned, this will tend to verify all of this s- iario, but it also may mean that it will be more difficult, if not impossible, to locate the bug, the device, or9other devices like this and the counter (measure),and it may also make it more difficult to wrap this whole thing up. A. I understand this, let mw put it this way, from my past experience in working in the lab, you know, things have come out that, yzxxkxzxT they are not, you know turning out (?) and therefore I'm not going to stop with this tape, (?) the information will then be related to . . . S, Okey, I'll make sure that it gets transfered. A. But what I'm trying to say is, I have one of the settings, they have to understand this, I don't know (? if there has been a murder? ?) I do get a psychic emotion because of the trauma Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 -3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 that takes there, but I also get a psychic emotion (from) the tramma that will take place. And in here, because I am not in the situation ,Ithe situation n know we have been as close as we could get, it doesn't seem yet enough for (?), it is one of the short comings at this movement that it is not -Corning oa S. Well, are you suggesting, it appears that you are suggesting to me that you could be more precise if you were allowed entry into tie suitep-333. A. I would say that it is a high probability that I would be aktaa able to, but I would not . . . S. Okey, A. I would still pick up the emotions, but you know, in other w words, the center of my work is to pick up the emotion of what is wrong, or what has been wrong in the place)( and therefore try to put it together ins m descriptinn , and the things that I state, so that the people there can make significant (?) S. Would the effect or the pick-up be essentially the same whether you were there with people or without people? Otherwise, if you went there in the evening, for security purposes, so that you would not interrupt anything going on there, would it be just; as valuable to do that'at night say, as it would be during the day? A. Yes it would be. Let me put it this way, I don't know, aA; I never did it1in a living group. I've done it (?) in the past. What I've done in the same junction you are talking about like on Wall Street or other places, is while the people are there I would just walk through and, you know, have my psychic emotion work into it. Now, I'm willing to try it, but, you know, again it would be a first time.. S. Okey, well that's theVie decision. A. I'm just giving you the information. S. But it would appear to be a good deal more awkward for you to walk, just walk through during the day when people are in place because of the normal security. A. What can be done, what can be done Scmtt, We can walk through the empty building (?) and see what I pick up, and if I'm not sati -~~~__ed l it ? Approve For Releasehen 2 60/ "/57 : ~v ~A-~DP09 6 v788R000 U 140004-7 S. All right. Well,let us shift from this line right now, Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 I think we've hit all those things that we tried, that we talked about yesterday on the ether side of the tape, that we going to come back to - that is identification of the man and a stick point is whether or not the young man disappearance has taken place and his possible death, or whether that is something in the future. Yo~mentioned yesterday, that did not get on the tape (this is in error, it did get on the tape) when we were driving back from Fort Belvior - is there on record the disappearance of another young man, a military personnel that has'nt been investigated. Is that the connection you had? A. Yes? teher question S. That is another question, somehow it is related. A. Somehow, something is related to it, I'm not sure what it is.(?) S. Okey, well it is on tape, and that was the reason I wanted to get it on tape. Let's cycle back just for a moment to the second female. Will you tell us where she is going to fit in? Where does she fit in? A. She is a transit only. S. A transient in the senge that she doesn't work full time in 333. is all I can say A. Or comes in and out n I don't see her coming in at eight a o'clock in the mornigg, nine o'clock. S. Is it possible that she works somewhere else in the building and on occas4ion comes down to 333? A. The answer is no. S. She doesn't work in t_bbuilding? Does she work on thebase? A. Let us return to that. that she travels ft6om time at to time into the suite, but is not on the base. For _wPQ~ reason I don't know. But I do know that there is something (?),Ache secrecy of the (?) =-, S. But, okey,Alit could be important to the normal pr oject that they are working on, itfalso could be important to the leak? A. Yes. S. Which is it, or is it both? A. Its, its, what it says is important to the whole thing we have been discussing. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Is Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 S. Okey, but that again is everything,so we need if you can, to get some differene'iation, now or later on. A. It's just that she came in as a shadow, you know at the beginning, by shadow meaning disturbance in the amaeae sceAW,, I should have pursued it, or something, I dpn't recall what happened (?) I will continue it this week when I get back (to Maine) (?) S. Okey, Alex, I want to know, this bug is transmitting information out of the suite, out of the building, now it is being received somewhere. Where is that somewhere, how far is itR transmitting? One of the problems od . . A. It's close, and it may be right on the base. S, I would ka suspect that it is on ?ka base. Where on base Alex, you have been around that base, did you come close to a receiving site? A. I/was wondering Scott, (? ? ? ?),the psychic emotion comes through ( ? ? ) S. But it would be easier if it could be in one of the homes in the housing area closer to that. Is it in one of those? A. I don't knM.I'm just trying to explainer the short time (he was onrSase)Ath/psychic tells me that it is either on base or close located (end of tape 6) - - - Tape 7 - - - S. The person5who monitorrthe bug, the signal for reception a{ suc1Z and recording out of room 333-- Alex, you said that it transmits fvr a short distance, or thw receiver is a short distance away from the transmitter, probably on base. Is that person who receives thatiand is responsible for recording, it male or fethale? A. At this present time my psychic tells me that it is a female. S. X11 right. T A. But I don't know, that is clafrvoyice. itQ8e.. . S. Okey, now, but does that person live on base, or come on the base and go off the base? A. At the present time, no answer. S. No answer. Is that person an employee, a full-time employee Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7 of this organization that has a network that is responsible for this act of inage? ul izne employee? o,.t 3 w , A-It . The an wer ~r~o, ) I'm no saying S. Well, let me, okey, I~ an see that, butdoes this female r-eeae that she is, what she is doing, does she know- ingly do this, or is she in fact being used. Has the received and recorder been planted in her apartment or house and she doesn't realize what is going on? Y' ? "~ , A. This is what I don't kncr) yet. ?- ) I keep - --?-) and I'm trying to relate I%t tells me that if i can interpretate the symbol of thetlines, it tells me I have to *Rxixk~ By doing it before IN and Dr. Osis not to 1. worry about the =?) to let if go at this point. S. All right let's, Alex, for conversatinn in the future, if something urgent comes up and we have to refer to this over the phone, let's call this the "Z." network, with,-,&t refering to listening devices or receivers or room 333, or anything else. If you say I have some more information on t the "Z" network just tell what it is without any reference to any of thisi But we will only do thht if you think that it is sp vital that you can't wait to write it A. And even to my letters ? ? an I v .ll type all letters j (? ?) I just want to hope, the people who are 1* to in : k~1 i h ur lex, at this p-oint has not been missed e t S. I'm u that they are as sensitive to this as we, if not more so, after all, this islsome of their full-time job, we are only part-time actors. - end of tape 7 - - Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000700140004-7