TRANSCRIPT: HU-1056/8310/08

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November 4, 2016
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June 25, 1998
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December 8, 1983
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Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 TRANSCRIPT HU-1056/8310/08 #66: This will be a CENTER LANE interview for 0900 hours 8 December 1983. Relax and concentrate now. Relax and focus your attention solely and completely on the individual in the photograph I've shown you. Focus and describe his location on 2 August 1983, the evening hours 1700 to 2200, 2 August 1983. #08: He a..was a ....... he was a watched, observed ah.. going into a grayish stone, almost ah....gray bluish building with a... with a glass doors. ..........old hotel type, three stories,. (mumble). He is observed by a.... by two people, ah...diagonally across from him on opposite... sides of the street, that's the initial scenario. #66: Okay. Tell me about what he does inside this building that he goes into. #08: Okay. ...... The a....he's a..carrying a..the briefcase in his left hand. .......The ah.. briefcase is important. The a...briefcase ah...contains a ..... 8x10 ah... black and white glossies.there in the ..there in the a... pocket or the strap of the briefcase inside. ...Ah... I jumping ahead, just a second. ....... The a...I can't make out what is on the a.. pictures, except there is contrast, big, huge contrast, black and white... with the a focus ah..... the focus of a ...of attention on the white,.... the portion of the photograph like.. resembles, it's a..circular #66: Is the photograph landscape, object or person? #08: No, I don't know what it is, I can only describe, it has lines, horizontal, little lines that you would find on a plastic cover. It's not that but it gives that appearance. There are three series of lines or layers. It was focused at was taken at very close range. I'm going to get off that kick now. #66: Okay. #08: Ah...There is a, as he came through the glass door, there is a reception desk on the left. There is Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 ah..a greenery that resembles a ...... why should I get at ..... some green, greenery plant... behind, behind the desk, and behind the receptionist, part of the decor, I guess. As if this is slow. Ah... he's going up a..white steps ah with a...dark iron railing. I have to wait. ............. The top of the step comes right faced to a ah..elevator. ......... (mumble).... goes left. It's a grayish rug with a red border. ...... in the second room to the left of the front, the end of the corridor and other part is a window. .......... The room is dark or the nature of this activity is a...under a desk lamp. .. .. .(mumble).... a (mumble) is.. is ah ..... there's interest being shown by a second man as if to...say a....that a....this step or whatever it is, happening took place without incident. #66: Describe the second man. #08: ...(......mumble) a twin bed, very dimwitted, dimlit (mumble) in fact the guy's got suspenders. ..... Wait. .. ...This a..the activity under the desk lamp is ..... has to do with little plastic or glass viles and pieces of glass like slides. ..........By the plastic viles are little chains, ..small chains like the old "dog tag chains" but much smaller. .......... There the a....the glass viles with a ..... like a pills, like aspirin but that's a distracter, it's not the real purpose. ......... It's something about a very small.... piece of plastic. ......... (mumble) work chip, I don't know. .......................... The a. . the, the a..activity or the discussions about the activity.... are both are legal....are plausible and a ...... a cover for a.... another activity that is about 5 to 10% illegal. The a....nature of the activity is contained in the, in a..plastic a bound lead plastic bound or books or something like, something, it is used to brief, ....... to brief, ...... used to brief a...people...about the nature of the legal activity that they're working on. Ah.... this goes into an 11 o'clock, midnight. What do you want to pursue? #66: Okay, I'm interested in the description of the legal activity and the description of the illegal activity. #08: They all...the percentages are terribly impressive so let me start with that. ...... The degree of the Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 illegal activities is a...only about 5, less than 10 % of the legal activity. The illegal activity is a... is something-taken from the legal activity and illegally disseminated, distributed or given. ....I have to wait ..................... I don't know, this gets complicated here. ......... #66: Break it out. #08: It has to do with representation of interest. .......... Two....let me start again. ....Representation of one interest to a foreign interest,....a public relations is involved or...a form there of...and the illegal activity is two fold, one, two. It's a disclosure of part of the interest.. represented to the other interest. ........ And the highly questionable second part is to....have the parties of the second interest... make them believe that a...that this guy has doubled himself against the first interest to the nature of ....... The a...raw data answer to the nature and I'm losing it, is a..books, books, books and a...information not necessarily classified but, just say that because it just came as books, that information. #66: Okay. Anything else to add at this time? #08: No, I think, I think it's going. #66: Okay. Now as you lose your perceptions, I want you to remember and recall everything that you perceived. #08: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 3 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 EXPLANATION HU-1056/8310/08 #08: Okay. I picked him up in front of this a. glass entrance door of a..stone building, grayish, almost steel blue, 'cause it was quite...ah..dark appearing, and the idea of an arch or. cover over the doorway was present. I had him there. I got the distinct impression that he was being surveilled from two points diagonallly left and right, down the street one man was already in place, one man had already followed him there and I saw this vision sort of zooming in on him. That's where I picked him up. #66: What type of a place was this he was going in? #08: It was, certainly turned out to be a hotel as far as I know. #66: Okay. #08: Ah..and I later sort of, from this still shot and as I examined it, I kind of let it run afterwards and he crossed through the glass doors and picked up his key from the receptionist which was on the left, trying to describe the oddities of that receptionist. Trying to describe some type of fern or green ah...greenery that she had behind her key boxes sort of a...a...thing to liven up the place a little bit. And from there he went up white stone stairwell with a...with a iron railing with sorts which leads right up to in front of an elevator, in fact the elevator opened but he never even got in, he went to the left which I think placed him on the second floor. And went down the hall. I was trying to look at the carpeting, carpeting again appeared very dim and gray. It could be the poor light but it had a little red border. I followed him all the way down the hall. And at the end of the hall there's a window and he was either in the second, last to second room from the last on the left. Then 1 was trying to determine the nature of the activity that took place. Oh, let me back track. After I had him coming through the doors, my focus was, of attention was directed towards this damn briefcase and difficult for me to see and photographs piled on one another, maybe four or five, maybe as many as eight, maybe less, ah...either 5x7s or 8xlOs, glossies and I was Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 trying to see through that to give me an idea what the hell was so important about the photographs. And all I got was a.. .really clashing perspective of,...within the framework of the photograph, a black background and a concentration on something white in the center, which looked like a reel of slides. There's was, it was,...I call that serrations or lines and that's the best I could describe it. It was like a basic tier on top of a smaller tier and on top of a smaller tier with a little cover, it looked like a thermos top, clear plastic thermos top. And I can't describe it any further. #66: Okay. Part of the picture looked to you to be similar to a carousel that fits on a slide projector? #08: Yes, because of the serrations. #66: Okay. It was circular with little serrations? #08: Yes. #66: Okay. And go on from there. #08: And then on top of a...all in one piece, this would have been the bottom piece and like there would have been another carousel on top of that one, but smaller and something else on top of that with a plastic cover and a few lines. It didn't make sense but the area of concentration of interest was in that white portion of the picture. It's just the best I could do with the picture. #66: Okay, so and then you said it was taken close up as though this were something that was taken quite close to this? #08: Yes, yes. #66: And it was circular and progressively smaller, like conical in the sense that it got smaller but it was made up of individual like circles. #08: Yes. This was definitely a very small article that was blown up. #66: Oh, I see, okay. You had the perception that this was something smaller-- Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: Yes, someone made a special effort it get 12 or 18 inches away from that thing and clipped it away. #66: Okay. #08: That was an answer to my question as to what is so important about the briefcase, why did you bring my attention to the briefcase and then from the briefcase to the photos. #66: Okay. #08: Okay. This happened before-- #66: --- You went up stairs-- #08: --I went up stairs. #66: Okay. #08: And a. let them do that. The nature of the activity in the room was rapidly brought to a desk lamp. The rest of the room was extremely dim. There was a man, I'm not too sure if it was the bald headed man, or maybe I wanted to see the bald beaded, I don't know, but there was a man lying on the bed, on his elbow expressing the thought, "how did it go", or that, that this phase of this activity which is important, but which was not all important, like phase two of five phases went without hitch like it was asking it went without a hitch. #66: Umm, umm. #08: And apparently it did. The a..And then I tried to find out what the nature of the activity in the room was, the important activity in the room was, and I was quickly brought to this desk lamp. And I thought he was going to look at the photographs. I really thought that's what it was going to be and it didn't turn out to be like that at all. What I saw were pieces of glasses like slides that you would use on a microscope, and about 5 or 6 viles, plastic, plastic screw on viles, about 2 inches tall with little plastic caps, and a little chain around those, about 5 or 6 of them. #66: Umm, um. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 3 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: And I sort of forced myself to find out what, what was in the viles and I got the impression of powder and pills of sort, as a, and I said is this the real nature of the interest and the answer was no, there is a small piece of plastic film or microchip appearing thing that was in there, not in all viles but in one or two, I don't know. Then I lost it. #66: Okay. #08: And this picture of the desk lamp concentrating this beam of light on this activity was steady, it was not interrupted and the rest of the room was kind of dark. #66: Okay, now I want to make sure of your choice of words. #08: It's very difficult. #66: Microchip or-- #08: The size, in size. #66: Okay. #08: To express smallness. #66: Okay, are we talking microdot? #08: No, no, nothing like that, nothing, well I don't know nothing like. #66: You didn't get a flavor of microdot processing? #08: No, the piece of plastic or whatever it was, was the item of interest which is perhaps the size of a thumb nail, square, was already covered in another piece of plastic. #66: So it seems that was. #08: In an envelope. #66: --there was something that was very small and protected in that. #66: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: Then I don't remember the rest, you can pump me anymore-, I don't think that was it was it? #66: Well, you said that there was a legal and an illegal activity. #08: Oh yeah, God yes, God that was, I got involved in mathematics there because I could not get something material, something substantive of a material nature to describe to you and what it translated was that the nature his activity which was legal was the great extent of his activity like this where the 90%, 95% came in-- #66: And what do you think that legal activity is, how would you describe that legal activity? #08: It has, I found later that it was, it had a PR flavor, it had an information flavor, it had like a..the guy was acting as an intermediate middle man involved in some information process. I want to quickly say, I did not get the flavor it was classified information at all. It was just an information process that he was trying to put across. He was trying to sell something to 5 other representatives, for lack of a better number, and that they were interested. And he then, in turn, gave the impression to these 5 people that he was really representing their individual interests against the main interest. And he was playing both sides against one another. #66: Okay, but he was involved in some sort of information exchange with other people? #08: Yes, then I went back to further clarify to tell me what is the nature of the business at hand and all I got was books. #66: And this is the legal side? #08: That's the legal side of it. #66: Books and what else? #08: Information from papers. #66: Books and information from papers and things like that. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 5 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: And that's as raw as I could get and that's all I got. #66: Okay. What about the illegal side of the house? #08: The illegal side of the house was obtained from that portion of which was legal. #66: Okay. #08: Okay, which he was not supposed to be handing over or giving over or doing. And I think he was milking both interests from the middle. That's as much as I can tell you. #66: You said something about, you used the HUMINT term, okay, I'll just remember to word that one-- #66: Yeah, some sort of a-- #08: Oh yeah, he's got a natural cover because he's representing the interest of the firm. #66: Okay. #08: Okay, so his activities are going to appear all legal. #66: Okay. #08: Okay. It's as if I were going to HUMINT conference, okay, but say I had a meeting on the side with an attache or something, that,..if I spent a week and had one meeting, that would represent 5% of my activity, but my cover would natural, because HUMINT would have sponsored me to the HUMINT conference. No matter who followed me, that's what they would have found, because that's what I was supposed to do. #66: So you feel that there was a-- #08: They're working within the legality of the system to accomplish something illegal. #66: All right. Do you have any idea what that accomplishment is? Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: That's, it has to do with that information they're not supposed to release. #66: Okay. #08: It has to do with this other stupid activity about a...the photographs, the a--- #66: But you don't have any other information on right now? #08: No, just, just described physical aspects of it. #66: Okay. Maybe we will be able in later explorations to get some more information on that. Back to the scene at the desk and the lamp and looking at little viles and powders and things, and I asked whether or not this was microdot oriented and you said no, just something small in size. #08: Well, microdot is something on a newspaper where you dot the "i" if you work on microdot so I-- #66: Right, okay. Is it trades craft oriented? #08: Could be, yeah, sure. #66: Did you get a feeling that it was trades craft oriented? #08: Absolutely, you could have an entire document printed on that piece of plastic that is the size of a thumb nail. But in terms of microdot-- #66: You're not saying that's what it is, you're just saying that it's certainly possible. #08: Sure, absolutely. #66: Okay. So do you have anything else in summary to add to this? #08: No, no. #66: Okay, good. Oh, I know one more thing I wanted to ask, I'm sorry. Recalling in your mind, the entrance before the glass doors, describe the main thoroughfare right outside this place. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #08: Ah, there was very little traffic, it was in a city type environment, very old. #66: You have an old feeling about it? #08: Yeah, old type environment with a pseudo morden hotel but not that extremely plush,..a..the buildings across the street from the hotel were very close to the, to the sidewalk and the road. And the people had them on the site didn't really get close at all, they're were opposite ends of the street, in terms of yards, I don't know, maybe 30 to 40 yards away. One was in place, one was already in place definitely and other guy just petered out. #66: But in general terms, this place outside the hotel, was city like, there were buildings right at the sidewalk which is right at the street as opposed to being set back a big distance. #08: Yes, yes. But if I were to characterize it, it would not have been in the extreme middle of the city. #66: Okay. #08: Not in the center of the complete activity, somewhere to the side, but still part of the city, very much part of the city. #66: Okay. Smaller in city size as opposed to being-- #08: --Yeah, New Yorkish. #66: Right, not big giant sky rises? #08: No. #66: But building types. #08: Yes. #66: A built up area. #08: Two or three stories. #66: And not much traffic at the particular time. #08: No. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 8 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2 #66: Of course it was a little later in the afternoon. #08: That was weird. In fact I got an impression of darkness, but that didn't jive, but what the hell, overcastish, very shadowy, might have been just my viewing. #66: Sure. Okay, anything else? #08: No. #66: Okay, good. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2