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November 4, 2016
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June 8, 2004
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September 25, 1979
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PDF icon CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2.pdf437.05 KB
Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SUBJECT: Minutes of DOD GRILL FLAME CommitteeSMeetting 1. Meeting was held in DIA Conference Room, 0930 hours, , 25 September 1979. AMt~,vDres ', 2. T110-se-in attendance were Dale Graff SG1I SG1J SG1I LTC Watt MAJ Stoner Dr. Vorona Billy Charlie ~~~ luu~eu copies of the minutes of the 12 July 79 DOD Grill Flame Committee Meeting. He asked for corrections or changes to the minutes. 2. Dale Graff - Have validated ICR's with me (copies) to give to each person present. SG1J 3. Dale and are to meet with SG1I Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1I SG1I SG1I SG1J SG1I SG1I SG1J SG1I SG1I and she is interested in finding out what we need in the area Reference Item 20 - add right/left hemisphere - is this who gets what requirement where. STONER: Which researchers do they will develop this between now and whatever after we have meeting with - Send requirements through normal channels with information copy to me. - Let minutes stand. STONER: Re #12. indicated that he had sent a couple copies over or whatever office of the CIA was supposed to send office. has a copy. SG1J SG1 A 2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 OLD BUSINESS: (Asked for by SG1J DR. VORONA - There's another review panel has been set up at Secretary Brown's request. DOD Advisory Board, Chairman Mansford Gale of the Army. Apparently they have been set up to provide another scientific and overview to give the Under Secretary of the Army a warmer feeling regarding this subject. Have already made rounds to SRI, etc. Vorona invited to talk to Group, 26 Sep, 1000 hours - informal. Vorona met Gale a few weeks ago. Gale had selection of the group. One psychiatrist, scientists, engineers, mathameticians, Jesse Orlansky will be on this committee. VORONA suspects this committee to get together with each and every organization to look into particular involvements in the matter. CHARLIE - They came to MICOM. Billy and I gave review. Orlansky was in the group. They understood the program but disagreed on protocol. Yet, offered no suggestions. SGFOIA3 STONER: I am a member of that Group, as an advisor. There are nine members. Gale is the Chairman. Dr. Halloway 06 Scientist Halloway has background in this. Dr. Douglas Tang, Army Res Int Bio Statistician Dr. Rich Montgomery - Engineer R&A California Cartwright Navy, China Lake (well balanced person). Approved For Release 20046/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 MG (Mr.) Laddie Stahl (earthy sort of guy) Dr. Orlansky, Jesse (fine old gent to have a beer with) Dr. Davis and Laberge proposed to have: Dr. Orlansky Dr. Ray Hyman Dr. Snyder Stoner and his General scrubbed Hyman. The Evaluation Group visited Ord and SRI - three days. SG1J - Hal was very unhappy with Evaluation Team Meeting. Seemed to want to pick SRI apart. Puthoff has written a letter to Gale regarding coming out to SRI for one thing and doing something else. (Stoner has a .copy of this letter). Tang and (.?) succeeded in getting SRI to come up with better statistics. 7-191n They visited Redstone (another battle). Visited AMSAA. Wayne Copes handled situation well. Mr. Gale assigned each team member to write a particular report - for example, PK protocol. All of these reports will make up the final report by the team. STONER: Snyder is an excellent consultant. VORONA - Will this committee/team go on forever? STONER: Don't know - hope 10 months will be all. Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIAJRDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 VORONO told Dale to alert General Brown that Ruth Davis No, Vorono will alert General Brown. (re visit to AF) STONER: Team to INSCOM Thursday and AMSAA on Friday. Suspect at the end of this month, Team will talk to Air Force. VORONO - Professor Wheeler refuses to look at evidence. STONER believes committee end result will be to proceed STONER the committee to investigate paranormal activities - several members have resigned. STONER: visited with Gale to Dr. John, Princeton and Dr. Lucky, Bell Labs - revealed only an interest.. VORONO - What's Johns status? STONER: Johns has a program and will succeed. He has 100,000dollar Budget. He has assistant part time psychic and sophisticated type experiment. VORONO'- He's not getting into investigative business. STONER will give trip report re Johns visit to Vorono on their meeting (Stoner's report to his General). STONER: Johns has a$:$,000 generator. He has been criticized by his peers in the University. Johns appealed to the President often for his work. He also answers to an overview Committee within the University. Johns says SRI's protocol is not good. Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1I SG1I SG1I SG1I STONER: Dr. Lucky, Bell Labs visit: SRI is sophmoric, not good scientific acts - repeat same things over and over. This thing needs to come out in the open for peer review. Lucky talked to Targ and Puthoff and suggested to them that they bring critics in to watch tests. Let Martin Garner in to cirtici,ke. Targ and Puthoff refused critics. - agrees they ought to do this. However, need a dis- VORONO - Suggested to Bob Dailey that he propose to Ruth Davis that this be put under National Scientific Foundation. She meet-ed aAt& said No. not expose to newspapers. - Did the members of this group sign a form that they would STONER: Yes, they all signed a security oath. They understand the security of it. on 26 Sep. can apply it. will get together to prepare for meeting - Synder came up with a protocol - not sure we Approved For Release 2004/06/7,9 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1I STONER: Only ones to see Lucky and Johns were Gale, Stoner Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 - was this protocol discussed with Johns or Lucky? and the guy from NSA. SG1I VORONA - CIA had a contract SRI's was supposed to be the best. to look into protocols. WATT - would like to have a copy of the protocol. Stoner will send him one. SG1I SG1I SG1J SG1J - CIA contractor monitors criticized SRI. DALE - when good viewers come to SRI, other things are dropped. Informal stage mainly for viewer to practice to get used to - a warm up is necessary. - Puthoff and Targ lump everything together (warm I up and actual session). Helter Skelter approach of Puthoff and Targ is due to lack of funds (getting a good viewer - Swann). FINANCING -II Congressman Rose had erroneous impressions of funding that DOD had to support SRI in this field. Dr. Vorono testified in front of Rose's committee and straightened this out. as to any changes in funding VORONO - Please notify me or so Vorono can post Cong Rose. Army may not get FY 81 funds. .S'150,000 projected. Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 STONER: No change in FY 81 funds. 9 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 STONER: Who will keep Rose informed, Ruth Davis? General Ty wrote a: letter to say Vorono will keep Rose informed. CHARLIE: 119 K will go to SRI. In the second phase of contract with SRI. Our in house R&D Programs 115K. STONER - AMSAA doesn't seem to have any problem obtaining funds for their program. STONER will check on funding profile and let Vorono know. DALE: Had written an update of collection requirements. Have copies of CRIs now for everyone. STONER wants to suggest amendments. Collection requirements - general guidelines. This is not the only way to get specifics into the field. STONER: Comment by collectors - add to DAO's, add FSTC on Army side, Japan/Europe, INSCOM Det A 0 E. DALE: Final distribution will include all those. DALE; Summary of collection effort of last summer. Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 I5ALE REPORT: Russians are looking for gifted children in psychic abilities (Moscow). RADECT. Moscow/Lenigrad - Flashing Light Experiment. Radect says there was correlation. Radeck is Czeckosilvokian. ,Attended a session in Madison, Wisconsin where two boys from Japan with an interpreter attempted images on photographic film and metal bending. Whole session was far too loose to verify demonstrations. There is a video tape on one of the boys. Dale will try to bring this tape to the next meeting. Japan has offered no official statements re their interest in RV. Dale questioned: Why must Walker's name be linked with Aberdeen Proving Ground? .The meeting was hosted by Dr. Uphoff. Dr. Hasted (Professor J. B. Hasted) from England has had 3 or 4 years work with metal softening. Hans Bender in Germany makes field trips to Switzerland actually deforms metal and then has it go back together. National Inquirer provides leads sometimes. Article regarding a foot doctor in Palo Alto. He and his children have the ability to bend metal. Dr. Lane (the foot doctor) has offered his children to SRI for demonstrations. PA meeting held in San Francisco. Brain Mind Pamphlet has small article. Dales office is doing informal things. Into diagonostics. Medical diagonostics. Unofficial - not FTD. STONER: In the library at ARE, there are two books we might be interested in: THE DIVINING HAND (regarding dowsing) - Marine Corps Combat early 70's Vietnam. Finding tunnels, etc. SCIENCE AND PSI, by Carol Nash, C. Thomas Pub. 1979 release Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1J SG1I SG1I SG1I SG1I SG1J SG1I - The Army's Evaluation from the Surgeon General - if we SG1I Appr Any further business? I We are presently trying to define a program. Proceeding cautiously. Program with $70,000 contract with SRI. We're concerned with Evaluation and Protocols. Qualifications sensor. Vocabulary. Targets - keep statistics and evaluations separate. Would like a more formal (written) pact with SRI. We have a six month effort to start. Want to get an Evaluation Plan. STONER: Suggested to to write the Evaluation that Johns (Princeton) as the person Need: Final Security Guide (especially for contractor) Protocols Document (Now using INSCOM draft guide prepared by AMSAA) Security Classification Guide WATT: Committee was aksed for comments four months ago re Security Classification Guide. Comments were to be provided to John Kramar of AMSAA. CHARLIE: Bill Johnson and his security people are working on it tied with DIA. STONER: will talk to Pattakos regarding security profile. CHARLIE: will have Bill Johnson call Stoner and explain his work regarding security. come up with more stringent protocol, will we be covered. It's now 1150, do you want to keep going. BILLY: Yes, keep going. 11 use SRI remote viewers. invites contract monitors to RV. ved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 10 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1J SG1J SG1J 2. Second Thursday of odd numbered month our scheduled meetings. 8 Nov 79 will be next meeting, 0930, DIA Conference Room. 3. Will hold meetings here (DIA) until there are other proposals. 4. Asked for suggested comments for the next meeting. 1. Watt will send minutes to STONER: Security. these him a month prior to meeting so he can put out an agenda. WATT: Concerned that SRI does things in an awkward manner. They use whatever resources they have available. They used one of our people who just happened to be there. Security and SRI - They tasked one of our viewers over the telephone. SRI has tremendous telephone security problems. WATT: Is there anyway this committee can get a secure telephone line at SRI. CHARLIE: There's a daycom at Mountain View. Suggested WATT give SRI a security briefing and have it reviewed every 2 months. STONER: said just call them and say don't do it again. CHARLIE: We tried for a secure phone before at SRI. Didn't work out. Its only a 10-15 minute drive from SRI to Mountain View. WATT: Gale Committee visits his office Thursday, 27 Sep - may be out of a job Friday. CHARLIE: Oul of the group, Gale was the most reasonable. If you have something to discuss at next meeting get Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 SG1I SG1I SG1J BILLY: PK program still in equipment building stage. Phase II early November. Protocols are still in abeyance. COL Busher of Fort Detrick hasn't decided yet. STONER: Cong Rose will be DOD Representative on Panel. are looking for people who can look inside of restricted spaces. Also, ones who can read a document or a message. Cryptanalysts - related to chemistry of the brain. We I I Suggested when calling SRI to use a pay telephone. This is more secure. Adjourn meeting for today (1220 hours). Approved For Release 2004/06/2&-?CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 Approved For Release 2004/06/29 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000130014-2 4- SG1I -\Q Tas cA M-4 F'7_ 63S/ f-564L E, ~ T Zslf ~4y~ l2 f~ 12~'K S G 1_c1c -__n1_ __ __ S G 11 LLP 2 F SG1I U.!'. rrl~ ~Co (AV) ?IZ3-1~z4 4 V ----SG 1 A 5d Approved rzor - 4-2