RABIN DISCUSSES U.S. ROLE, ISRAELI POSITION IN SETTLEMENT TALKS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: Library of Congress
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
• Release Decision: RIFLIM
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: January 11, 2017
• Document Release Date: June 11, 2010
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: June 1, 1975
• Content Type: CABLE

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RR 11'EHLG No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
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''ATT N PETER RODMAN, SECRETARY'S PARTY
RABIN DISCUSSES U.S. ROLE, ISRAELI POSITION IN SETTLEMENT TALKS
TA010720Y TAKE 1 OF 4--RABIN AL HAMISHMAR INTERVIEW
TEL AVIV 'AL HAMISHMAR SUPPLEMENT 30 MAY 75 PP 4-7 TA.
((INTERVIEW OF PRIME MINISTER YIZHAQ RABIN BY A PANEL OF
'AL HAMISHMAR JOURNALISTS--TIME AND PLACE OF INTERVIEW NOT GIVEN))
((EXCERPTS)) ((PASSAGE OMITTED)) ((QUESTION)) HOW SHOULD WE
VIEW THE LETTER OF THE SENATORS? IS IT RIGHT TO SAY THAT THIS IS
AN UNRESERVED SUPPORT?
((ANSWER)') THE LETTER-OF THE 76 RPT 76 SENATORS IS OF POLITICAL
AND PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPORTANCE. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT ISRAEL
WILL HAVE A FREE HAND TO PRESENT STANDS AS IT WISHES--ONE SHOULD
BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE INTERPRETATION--OR THAT THERE IS NO DEMAND
BY CONGRESS TO CONTINUE THE DIPLOMATIC PROCESS AND TO ADVANCE
TOWARD PEACE. NEVERTHELESS, THE FIRM STAND ON CENTRAL ISSUES
EXISTS, BOTH IN CONNECTION WITH THE CONTINUATION OF AIR FOR THE
STATE'S SECURITY AND ECONOMY AND FOR CENTRAL POINTS OF A POLITICAL
SOLUTION. THESE STANDS ARE CLOSER TO THE ISRAELI POSITION THAN
TO THE ARAB POSITION. ((PASSAGE OMITTED))
((QUESTION)) FOLLOWING THE FAILURE OF THE KISSINGER TALKS
THERE WAS A FEELING THAT THE SKIES WERE FALLING ON US.
((ANSWER)) WHOSE FEELING?
((QUESTION)) AMONG THE PUBLIC.
((ANSWER)) AMONG THE PUBLIC, YES, BECAUSE A SECTION TRIED TO
DESCRIBE THE SITUATION IN VERY SERIOUS TERMS. I DON'T WANT TO
SAY THAT WE ARE NOT IN A DIFFICULT PERIOD. THERE IS AN EXISTING
ARAB REALITY WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH EXISTED BEFORE
THE YOM KIPPUR WAR AND THERE IS ALSO A DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL
REALITY, BUT THE DESCRIPTION OF OUR SITUATION AFTER THE SUSPENSION
OF THE TALKS WAS EXAGGERATED AND I THINK THAT TIME HAS PROVED
THIS.
((QUESTION)) GOING BACK TO THE CLEARING IN THE ATMOSPHERE
WHICH HAS OCCURRED. IS IT TRUE TO SAY THAT AN ISRAELI
CLARIFICATION OF THE QUESTION: WHAT KIND OF A STATE WE WANT--
THAT 159 WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE AIM--:COULD HELP US? HAS THE HOUR
NOT COME TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION?
((ANSWER)) IT WOULD BE CORRECT TO SAY THAT SINCE WE HAVE
STOPPED DEALING IN THE ROGERS PLAN THERE HAS BEEN AN AMERICAN
POLICY OF NOT PRESENTING PEACE PLANS OF THEIR OWN9 BECAUSE OF THE
RECOGNITION THAT IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS AN AGREEMENT WHICH IS NOT
BASED ON CONSENT BETWEEN THE SIDES--EVEN IN INDIRECT NEGOTIATIONS--
WOULD NOT BE AN AGREEMENT OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE.
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 Tf1E IM No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2 IT
AND THE AMERICAN AIM HAS BEEN, AND I HDt'E 11 WILL turviiIvur. 10 BE SO
IN THE FUTURE, TO SEARCH FOR WAYS TO BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN THE
POSITIONS. PREVIOUS ISRAELI GOVERNMENTS HAVE MADE VERY SERIOUS
EFFORTS TO REACH AN UNDERSTANDING WITH THE UNITED STATES ON THE
QUESTION OF BORDERS. THESE EFFORTS HAVE NOT ACHIEVED ANY AGREEMENT
BETWEEN THE SIDES.
((QUESTION)) WHY?
((ANSWER)) BECAUSE THE AMERICANS HAVE NOTT COMMITTED
THEMSELVES TO US ON A POSITION WHICH IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO
EGYPT, JUST AS I HOPE THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO REFRAIN. FROM
COMMITTING THEMSELVES TO=EGYPT ON A POSITION WHICH IS NOTT
ACCEPTABLE TO US. THE UNITED STATES REMAINS THE ONLY ELEMENTS
WHICH CAN REALLY PLAY THE ROLE OF MEDIATOR WITH THE AIM OF
ACHIEVING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE SIDES, BECAUSE ITS APPROACH IS
DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE SOVIET UNION AND OF PART OF THE
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. THE MOMENT THAT IT COMES FORWARD WITH A
POSITION OF ITS OWN IT WILL LOSE ITS ABILITY TO BE THE ELEMENT
ACCEPTABLE TO THE SIDES AS A MEDIATOR AND CHANNEL FOR NEGOTIATIONS.
IF IT HAS A POSITION OF ITS OWN THEN ONE OF THE SIDES AGREES
WITH IT AND THUS IT LOSES ITS ABILITY TO MANEUVER. THE UNITED
STATES UNDERSTANDS THIS COMPLETELY IN VIEW OF THE FAILURE OF THE
ROGERS PLAN. HOWEVER, TO MY GREAT REGRET THIS HAS NOTT BEEN
UNDERSTOOD BY THE SOVIET UNION WHICH HAS PREFERRED, OUT OF ITS
DESIRE TO STRESS ITS RELATIONS WITH THE ARAB COUNTRIES, TO BE
ON THEIR SIDE CONTINUOUSLY. HENCE, THE SOVIET UNION HAS LOST
ITS VALUE AS AN ELEMENT IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS EVEN IH THE EYES
OF THE ARABS.
((QUESTION)) IS IT CORRECT TO ASSUME THAT IN HIS TALKS WITH YOU
AND WITH AS-SADAT, PRESIDENT FORD WILL NOT SUGGEST AN AMERICAN
PLAN OF HIS OWN?
((ANSWER)) 100 NOT WANT TQ COMMIT MYSELF TO WHAT PRESIDENT
FORD WILL OR WON'T DO. I HAVE REASON TO ASSUME THAT--AS WE WERE
INFORMED--THE MEETINGS WITH AS-SADAT AND WITH ME ARE PART OF THE
REASSESSMENT PROCESS AND THAT THERE WILL BE NO CONCLUSION OF THE
ASSESSMENT UNTIL AFTER THE TALKS. THAT IS, THEY CAN EXAMINE
VIEWS BUT THEY WILL NOT COME FORWARD WITH A POSITION. IF WE
ACCEPT WHAT WAS SAID TO US, AND I DO ACCEPT IT--I HAVE TO BELIEVE
THAT THE PROCESS OF REASSESSMENT WILL CONTINUE UNTIL AFTER THE
TWO MEETINGS.
((QUESTION)) IS IT POSSIBLE TO EXPEC THE PROCESS OF REASSESSMENT
TO GIVE BIRTH TO AN AMERICAN PLAN?
((ANSWER)) I DON'T WANT TO PROPHESY. I HAVE NO AUTHORITY
FROM PRESIDENT FORD TO SAY DEFINITELY "NO". I THINK THIS WOULD
BE A MISTAKE ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES IF IT DOES 90,
BECAUSE IT WOULD LOSE ITS ABILITY AND FLEXIBILITY AS A BODY
SERVING AS AN ACTIVE CHANNEL IN THE PROCESS OF POLITICAL
NEGOT IATIONS. BECAUSE THE MOMENT IT ADOPTS A STAND, THEN: TAKE
IT OR LEAVE IT. SINCE THE ROGERS PLAN THERE HAS BEEN AN AMERICAN
POSITION NOT TO COME FORWARD WITH A PLAN OF THEIR OWN.
((QUESTION)) DO YOU THINK THAT THIS STAND HAS CHANGED?
((ANSWER)) I DO NOT SAY SO, BUT I DO NOTT THINK THAT IT
NECESSARILY HAS TO BE IDENTICAL. 30 MAY AA/ERCK/SZ 01/105OZ JUN MORE
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11: LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
ATTN PETER RODMAN, SECRETARY'S PARTY
TA010747Y TAKE 2 OF 4--RABIN AL HAMISHMAR INTERVIEW
TEL AVIV 'AL HAMISHMAR SUPPLEMENT 30 75 XXX TO BE IDENTICAL.
((TXCERPTS)) ((QUESTION)) WOULD YOU CONSIDER IT A MISTAKE
TO EXPLAIN IN PUBLIC THE PRINCIPLES FOR A COMPREHENSIVE SETTLEMENT?
((ANSWER)) IF WE ENTER NEGOTIATIONS FOR A COMPREHENSIVE
SETTLEMENT THEN WE SHALL HAVE TO COME FORWARD WIH DEFINITE
POSITIONS. I DO NOTT THINK THE WORLD WILL MARVEL AT ISRAEL IF WE
DEFINE THE BEST POSSIBLY ATTAINABLE PEACE BY AN "X" NUMBER OF
PARAGRAPHS. WHOEVER THINKS OF IMPRESSING THE WORLD BY PRESENTING
20 RPT 20 ARTICLES OF PEACE IS MISTAKEN, BECAUSE THEY WISH TO
RECEIVE FROM 'US A COMPREHENSIVE PICTURE OF ALL THE COMPONENTS OF
PEACE. ((AS PUBLISHED)) HOWEVER, FROM THE ISRAELI POINT OF VIEW THE
TERRITORIAL ISSUE IS UNDOUBTEDLY PART OF THE QUESTION OF WHAT
KIND OF PEACE THE ARABS ARE READY FOR. THEREFORE, IT IS VERY
DIFFICULT TO RAISE SUCH A PROPOSAL AT PRESENT, AND I DO NOTT ADVISE
THAT WE DRAW PRECISE OUTLINES FOR PUBLIC PRESENTATION. IT IS
ENOUGH THAT WE HAVE CLARIFIED A FEW PRINCIPLES REGARDING THE
INTENDED MAP.
((QUESTION)) WHICH ARE?
((ANSWER)) WE SAID THAT IN RETURN FOR PEACE--A PEACE TREATY--
WE SHALL BE PREPARED TO RETURN MOST OF THE SINAI AND DEMILITERIZE
IT. WE ALSO SAID WE WANT AN ISRAELI PRESENCE AT OR CONTROL OF
SHARAM-ASH-SHAYKH, INCLUDING TERRITORIAL CONTINUITY WITH IT. AS FOR
THE GOLAN HEIGHTS, WE HAVE DETERMINED THAT EVEN WITH A PEACE
AGREEMENT WE DO NOTT WANT TO COME DONW FROM THE HEIGHTS. WE
HAVE NOT DETERMINED A LINE NOR ARE WE STICKING TO THE PRESENT
ONE.
((QUESTION)) WHEN YOU SAY "WE DO NOTT WANT TO COME DOWN",
DOES THIS MEAN THAT WE WILL NOTT COME DOWN?
((ANSWER)) WE WILL NOTT COME DOWN.
((QUESTION)) ON ANOTHER OCCASION YOU SAID, "WE SHALL KEEP
CERTAIN FOOTHOLDS ON THE HEIGHTS".
((ANSWER)) I SAID: EVEN WITH A PEACE AGREEMENT WE SHALL NOTT
DESCEND FROM THE GOLAN HEIGHTS, WHICH DOES NOTT MEAN STICKING
TO THE PRESENT LINE.
((QUESTION)) SHOULD THERE BE ANOTHER ROUND OF TALKS WITH
THE SYRIANS REGARDING AN INTERIM SETTLEMENT?
((ANSWER)) I DID NOTT SAY SO. IN MY OPINION T14ERE CANNOT BE
NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT AN INTERIM SETTLEMENT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND
SYRIA, BECAUSE OF SYRIA'S STAND AND BECAUSE OF THE LIMITED
TERRITORIAL SPACE. THERE I SEE A NEED FOR A C0t"IPREHENSIVE
AGREEMENT.
((QUESTION)) AN IMPRESSION PREVAILS THAT AN INTERNATIONAL
CONSENSUS IS FORMING WHICH WILL RECOGNIZE THE' 19671 RPT
1967
ISRAELI BOUNDARIES, ACCOMPANIED BY SECURITY AMENDMENTS.
IS
THERE
NO FEAR OF FINDING OURSELVES THE ONLY ELEMENT NOTT ABLE
TO
DISCERN
THIS INTERNATIONAL "CONSPIRACY"?
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
((ANSWER)) A SIMILAR CONCESUS HAS ALREADY BEEN CRYSTALLIZED IN
THE PAST. THERE WAS THE ROGERS PLAN IN 1969 RPT 1969,
WHICH IN FACT WAS NEVER REALIZED. THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT
TODAY--AND FOR THE BETTER--FROM THE ONE IN WHICH WE. FOUND OURSELVES
IN 1968-69 RPT 1968-69. BOTH THE JORDAN PLAN, WITH RUSK'S
SEVEN POINTS, AND THE ROGERS PLAN WERE MORE OR LESS BASED ON THE
RETURN TO THE 1967 RPT 1967 BOUNDARIES. IT IS EVIDENT THAT
THIS PLAN DIP NOTT TURN INTO A CONCRETE POLITICAL PLAN. THE
POSITIONS OF THE SIDES HAVE, THEREFORE, NOTT CHANGED IN PRI CIPLE.
NEITHER THE EUROPEANS, WHO HAVE POSSIBLY EVEN SOFTENED, NOR THE
RUSSIANS AND CERTAINLY NOTT THE UNITED STATES, WHICH SINCE 1970
RPT 1970 HAS NOTT PRESENTED THE ROGERS PLAN AS ITS OWN POLITICAL
PROGRAM. IT IS POSSIBLE TO SAY THAT, AS COMPARED TO THE PAST,
THE SITUATION HAS IMPROVED AND NOTT. WORSENED. WHAT WILL HAPPEN
IN THE FUTURE--WHO KNOWS?
((QUESTION)) YOU HAVE IGNORED JUDAEA AND SAMARIA UP TO NOW.
THERE ARE PLANS REFERRING TO SETTLEMENT WHICH WOULD GUARD THE
JEWISH CHARACTER OF THIS REGION. WE HAVE NOTT HEARD ANY CLEAR
DEFINITION FROM YOU REGARDING GIVING BACK JUDAEA AND SAMARIA.
((ANSWER)) TWO ISSUES ARE WRAPPED TOGETHER IN THE ALINEMENT
PLATFORM: SETTLEMENT WITH JORDAN AND THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE. A VERY
CLEAR POSITION IS DEFINED IN IT: IN THE ORIGINAL LAND OF ISRAEL
THERE IS ROOM FOR ONLY TWO STATES. THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE HAS
TO BE EXPRESSED THROUGH A PALESTINIAN IDENTITY WITHIN A JORDANIAN-
PALESTINIAN STATE AND THERE IS NO ROOM FOR A THIRD STATE. THE
BORDER BETWEEN THE TWO STATES IS SUBJECT TO NEGOTIATIONS.
((QUESTION)) A DECLARATION WAS MADE REGARDING THE SECUIRY
BOUNDARIES: WE WILL NOTT MOVE FROM THE JORDAN RIVER.
((ANSWER)) NO INTERPRETATION WAS GIVEN TO THE FACT THAT THE
JORDAN CONSTITUTES ISRAEL'S SECURITY.. BORDER. THE MEANING WAS
NOTT DETERMINED. .
((QUESTION)) WELL THEN, WHAT IS THE ;MEANING?
((ANSWER)) I 00 NOTT WISH TO ENTER INTO THIS. I WANT TO REMIND
YOU THAT EVEN THE NATIONAL UNITY GOVERNMENT DECIDED (NOTT AS A
GOVERNMENT DECISION) TO EXAMINE THE POSSIBLE EXTENT THIS COULD
CONSTITUTE A BASIS FOR NEGOTIATIONS. SINCE THEN AND UNTIL THIS
DAY MANY GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING THE PRESENT ONE, HAVE REEXA'IINED
THIS ISSUE. THE ANSWER HAS BEEN THAT IT COULD NOTT BE ACCEPTED AS A
BASIS FOR NEGOTIATIONS. SINCE SEPTEMBER 1974, SINCE THE RABAT
CONFERENCE, A QUESTION HAS EXISTED ABOUT JORDAN BEING A PARTNER
TO A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT EAST OF ISRAEL. WE CONTINUE TO EXAMINE
AND BELIEVE THAT JORDAN IS THE COUNTRY WITH WHICH. WE HAVE TO
REACH A PEACE SETTLEMENT REGARDING OUR EASTERN BORDER. 30 MAY
TR/ERCK/SZ 01/114OZ JUN.MORE
BT
#0014
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
TA010810Y TAKE 3 OF 4--RABIN 'AL HAMISHMAR INTERVIEW
TEL AVIV 'AL HAMISHMAR SUPPLEMENT 30 75 XXX OUR EASTERN BORDER.
((EXCERPTS)) ((QUESTION)) IF WE ARE TO BE UP TO DATE SHOULD
WE NOW OFFER HUSAYN SOMETHING TO PREVENT HIS JOINING AN EASTERN
FRONT?
((ANSWER)) THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY AT PRESENT OF ACHIEVING
A COMPREHENSIVE PEACE, A PEACE AGREEMENT, WITH ANY ONE ARAB COUNTRY
SEPARATELY. WE TRIED IT--BOTH PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS AND THE PRESENT
ONE--AND FOUND OUT THAT NO SUCH POSSIBILITY EXISTS.
((QUESTION)) NAMELY, THERE CANNOT BE ANY DEALINGS WITH THE
JORDANIAN ISSUE PRIOR TO GENEVA?
((ANSWER)) I DID NOTT SAY SO. HOWEVER, NOTT IN REGARD TO A
COMPREHENSIVE SETTLEMENT. NOTT BECAUSE WE ARE NOTT READY, BUT
BECAUSE IT IS DOUBTFUL WHETHER JORDAN HAS THE NECESSARY MANDATE.
DURING KISSINGER'S SHUTTLE TOUR EGYPT CATEGORICALLY TOLD US:
ON NO ACCOUNT WILL THERE BE A SEPARATE COMPREHENSIVE PEACE
AGREEMENT WITH US. NO ARAB STATE WILL SIGN A SEPARATE
PEACE AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL, NOTT EVEN WITHIN THE 1967 RPT 1967
BOUNDARIES.
((QUEST IO N)) WE HAVE ACTED A LONG TIME ACCORDING TO THE THESIS
THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO DRIVE A WEDGE BEWEEN THE ARAB STATES.
WAS THIS ERRONEOUS?
((ANSWER)) I DO NOTT WISH TO ENTER INTO THE QUESTION ABOUT
WHAT THESIS WE FOLLOWED. HOWEVER, IT WAS SHOWN THAT EGYPT IS
PREPARED FOR A SEPARATE INTERIN SETTLEMENT. THEY NEGOTIATED
WITH US AND WE DID NOTT ACCEPT THEIR CONCRETE TERMS, BUT THE ISSUE
OF THEIR UNPREPAREDNESS TO MAKE A SEPARATE AGREEMENT WITH US
WAS NEVER RAISED.
((QUESTION)) NOW, ON THE THRESHOLD OF FURTHER TALKS CONCERNING
A SETTLEMENT WITH EGYPT, IS IT TRUE TO SAY THAT WE ADHERE TO A
QUID PRO QUO WHICH IS NOTHING BUT A PERIOD OF TIME, OR TO A QUID
PRO QUO WHICH ALSO INCLUDES POLITICAL COMPONENTS?
((ANSWER)) AT THE MEETING WITH FORD ALL THE POSSIBILITIES,
FROM ISRAEL'S SIDE, FOR ADVANCEMENT TOWARD PEACE WILL BE RAISED.
THE GOVERNMENT WILL DECIDE WHAT IS PREFERABLE FOR WHAT AND WHICH
DIRECTION TO BE PREFERRED OVER ANOTHER. WHEN A LIMITED
INTERIM AGREEMENT IS DISCUSSED WE SHALL EXAMINE IT
ACCORDING TO FOUR CRITERIA: A)-- IN WHAT MEASURE IT ADVANCES US
TOWARD PEACE, EVEN AS A CONCRETE, SYMBOLIC NUCLEUS FOR MOVES
WHICH CONSTITUTE PROGRESS TOWARD PEACE. B) ENFORCING THE LIMITATION
OF THE USE OF FORCE AS A MEANS OF REACHING A SOLUTION TO THE
CONFLICT, SINCE THE ISSUE IN A LIMITED INTERIM AGREEMENT IS NOTT
THE ENDING OF THE STATE OF BELLIGERENCY. WHEN WE DECIDED TO
DISCUSS A LIMITED AGREEMENT, WE DID IT ON THE BASIS OF A STATE OF
BELLIGERENCY STILL EXISTING. C) THE PERIOD OF THE AGREEMENT'S
EFFECTIVENESS, NOTT ONLY VERBALLY BUT PRACTICALLY. WE HAVE
LEARNED THAT THE'PERIOD OF THE AGREEMENT'S EFFECTIVENESS
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
IS NOTT DETERMINED BY GENERAL FORMULAS BUT FIRST AND
FOREMOST BY THE PERIOD OF EFFECTIVENESS OF THE MANDATE OF THE UN
FORCES STATIONED I N THE BUFFER ZONE AND SUPERVISING THE GENERAL
COMPONENTS OF THE AGREEMENT, ESPECIALLY THE CEASE-FIRE AND THE
THINNING OUT OF FORCES. IN THIS SPHERE I REGARD THE EGYPTIAN
REPLY AS MOST UNSATISFACTORY. D) LINES AND ARRANGEMENTS IN THE AREA
UNDER CONDITIONS OF AN
AGREEMENT WHICH IS NOTT AN END TO THE STATE OF BELLIGERENCY. UNDER
THAT CIRCUMSTANCE, I DO NOTT SEE ANY POSSIBILITY OF ISRAEL
GIVING UP THE PASSES, OR A CONSIDERABLE PAR OF THEM,
AS A DEFENSE LINE AND I SHALL NOTT ENTER INTO THE QUESTION OF
WHICH PART EXACTLY. AT THE SAME TIME, HAD .WE BEEN SATISFIED
POLITICALLY REGARDING THE PERIOD OF THE AGREEMENT'S
EFFECTIVENESS, THE OIL ISSUE, WITH ALL ITS IMPORTANCE--AND
I REGARD IT AS LESS IMPORTANT THAN INSURING A DEFENSE LINE
BASED ON A CONSIDERABLE PART OF THE 'CREST WHICH BLOCKS THE
WAY INTO SINAI-WC WOULD HAVE SETTLED.
((QUESTION)) D0 WE U DERSTAND THAT YOUR STIPULATION IN REGARD
TO THE IMPORTANCE OF THE PASSES IS NOTT AFFECTED BY THE 5 JUNE
EVENT? NAAELY, THAT ONCE THE CANAL IS REOPENED TO NAVIGATION,
DOES IT NOTT LIMIT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF A DEFENSE LINE BY THE MERE
FACT OF CIVILIAN TRAFFIC PASSING IN THE CANAL?
((ANSWER)) THE EXISTENCE OF TRAFFIC PASSING LHROUGHITPER
CANAL IISIKOR VARIOUSIREASGN4U IMPORTANL MAINLYITG EGYPT,
REUPECIALLYIAFLER LHA ANCOUNCEVECTITPATITPEQ ESTIMATE EN
INCOME OF HALF A XBS))89: '9))-4 3, 5#3 IS
5 63-4. HOWEVER,
IN MY OPINION9 IT IS DOUBTFUL WHETHER THERE IS A SERIOUS BASIS
FOR THE ASSUMPTION THAT AN OPEN CANAL WILL OBLIGE EGYPT TO REFRAIN
FROM WAR.
((QUESTION)) MEANING THAT IT CANNOT 3E REGARDED AS
A PEACEFUL GESTURE?
((ANSWER)) NO. IT IS A GESTURE OF NORMALIZING EGYPTIAN LIFE
IN THE CANAL AREA. AS-SADAT, TOO, DOES NOTT SAY IT IS A GESTURE
OF PEACE.
((QUESTION)) DO YOU ESTIMATE THAT THE EGYPTIANS WILL TRANSFER
SOME FORCES FOLLOWING THE REOPENING OF THE CANAL?
((ANSWER)) I BELIEVE THAT EGYPT WILL RESPECT ITS UNDERTAKINGS
IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE SEPARATION OF FORCES AGREEMENT.
TRANSFERING FORCES IS A VIOLATION OF THE THINNING-(` AGREEMENT. I
DO NOTT BELIEVE THAT EGYPT, WHICH UNDERTOOK AN OBLIGATION BY THE
VERY SIGNING OF THE AGREEMENT, WOULD DO SUCH A THING. IF THE
CANAL IS REOPENED ISRAEL" WILL REGARD IT WITH A FRIENDLY EYE.
((QUESTION)) SHOULD ISRAEL CONTRIBUTE TO THE NORMALIZATION PROCESS
ALONG THE CANAL AREA, NAMELY--SHOULD THERE BE A PARALLEL
ISRAELI GESTURE?
((ANSWER)) I SHALL NOT ENTER INTO DETAILS AS TO ISRAEL'S
FUTURE MOVES. 30 MAY 75 TR/ERCK/NE MORE 01/1225Z JUN
BT
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
ATTN PETER RODMAN, SECRETARY'S PARTY
TAO 10928Y TAKE 4 OF 4--ARABIN AL HAMISHMAR INTERVIEW
TEL AVIV 'AL HA.MISHMAR SUPPLEMENT 30 75 XXX ISRAEL'S FUTURE
MOVES.
((EXCERPTS)) ((QUESTION)) WHY?
((ANSWER)) THINK THAT EGYPT'S DECISION TO REOPEN THE
CANAL IS NOTT A GESTURE TOWARD ISRAEL. IT IS FIRST AND FOREMOST
A GESTURE TOWARD THE SOVIET UNION, TOWARD EUROPE AND A MOVE
INTENDED TO INFLUENCE AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION. ISRAEL WAS
EGYPT'S LAST CONSIDERATION. IN MY OPINION IT IS A STEP WHICH WAS
INTENDED TO CREATE A BETTER ATMOSPHERE IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE
CONCESSIONS TO WHICH ISRAEL HAD NOTT AGREED TO IN THE COURSE OF
THE TALKS.
((QUESTION)) COMMONSENSE DICTATES THAT AN OPEN CANAL, WHICH
WOULD ENABLE THE SOVIET UNION TO INCREASE ITS POWER IN THE
PERSIAN GULF, MUST ENCOURAGE A MORE POSITIVE AMERICAN VIEW OF
ISRAEL AS ITS ALLY IN OUR AREA?
K(ANSWER)) THE SOVIET NAVY COULD HAVE PASSED THROUGH
THE CANAL THE MOMENT IT WAS CLEANED AND WITHOUT IT BEING OPENED
TO COMMERCIAL NAVIGATION. THE MOMENT WE WITHDREW FROM THE CANAL
AND THE EGYPTIANS DECIDED TO CLEAR IT, WHETHER IT WAS REOPENED
TO COMMERCIAL NAVIGATION OR NOTT, THE SOVIETS HAD A NAVAL AXIS
FOR TRANSFERRING FORCES FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN TO THE RED SEA
AND THE INDIAN OCEAN. I DO NOTT THINK THIS WILL INFLUENCE AMERICAN
CONSIDERATIONS.
((QUESTION)) ASSUMING THAT A PARTIAL SETTLEMENT AMOUNTS
TO SUICIDE IF SOME OF THE ARAB. COUNTRIES CONSIDER IT PART OF THE
PLAN TO LIQUIDATE ISRAEL, WOULDN'T IT BE RIGHT TO STRUGGLE FOR
AN OVERALL SETTLEMENT AND MOBILIZE JEWISH AND WORLD PUBLIC OPINION
FOR THIS PURPOSE?
((ANSWER)) I DO NOTT CONSIDER IT POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE AN OVERALL
SETTLEMENT,-BECAUSE THE MOMENT WE ENTER INTO THE DETAILS OF THE
OVERALL AGREEMENT WE WILL FACE A KNOWN ARAB POSITION: WITHDRAWAL
TO THE 1967 RPT 1967 LINES ON ALL FRONTS AND ESTABLISHMENT OF
A ' ARAFATITE STATE IN AJUDAEA AND.SAMARIA AND THE GAZA
STRIP--AND THIS NOTT IN RETURN FOR PEACE, BUT IN RETURN FOR THE
TERMINATION OF THE STATE OF BELLIGERENCY OR PEACE THE WAY
AS-SADAT AND AL-ASAD INTERPRET IT. 'ARAFAT HAS SAID WHAT HE WANTS
OPENLY. HE IS PREPARED TO CONTENT HIMSELF WITH SUCH A STATE AT
THIS STAGE, BUT HE HAS NOTT GIVEN UP THE CENTRAL IDEA, WHICH IS
THE POLITICAL, PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPT OF THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS--
TO LIQUIDATE ISRAEL AS A SOVEREIGN STATE. I DO NOTT UNDERSTAND
WHY OUR SITUATION WILL BE BETTER WHEN WE ARRIVE AT A CONFRONTATION
WITH THIS POSITION? FOR THE TIME BEING, I DO NOTT SEE THAT IF
THERE IS ARAB AGREEMENT IT IS AROUND AN OVERALL SETTLEMENT AND
THAT IF THERE IS NO ARAB AGREEMENT IT IS,'AROUND THE INTERIM
SETTLEMENT ISSUE?
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
 No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2
LL SETTLEMENT DO WE RISK
(QUESTION)) IN AN O
E
(
RA
THE
V
CRYSTALLIZING AN ARAB
((ANSWER)) THERE IS AN ARAB FRONT AISSUECOMMITMENT BY ALL
ARAB STATES ON THE OVERALL SETTLEMENT
ALSO BY HUSAYN? IS IT SERIOUS?
((ANSWER)) HUSAYN DEFINITELY CANNOT PROCEED TO AN OVERALL SETTLEME
NT XPLICITY AND SEPARATELY. WE HAVE BEEN TOLD OF THIS AE NPOVERALI-AS UNEQUIVOCALLY
ETTLEMENT
T}-ROUGH THE AMERICANS. WITH REGARD
THERE IS AN ARAB COMMITMENT AT INTERIM SETTLEMENTr~ARB SUCH
APPARENT THAT THE CONDITIONS
THAT WE CANNOT ACCEPT THEM, IT WILL BREEZE COCNTINUACTIE
E
POLITICAL MOVEMENT. I AM AGAINST
AND I F WE HAVE TO TACKLE AN OVERALL SETTLEMENT, AREBWILLMIA KLE
IT AND STRUGGLE OVER IT. HOWEVER,
REGARDING SUCH A SETTLEMENT.
((QUESTION)) WHAT ARE WE? EXPECTEDTO
WORKATN JOINTECOMMITTEES
CONFERENCE ;F IT RECONVENES?
YSPARATE SETTLEMENTS WITH EACH ONE OF THE ARAB SIDES
STATES?
((ANSWER)) IT SHOULD BEVE"1ET~ERADABSTHAT
ANDTUS~ASINTADDITION ON
I ONTI ,
EXIST I N EVERY POLITICAL MO OUR
TO THAT THE TWO BIG ISWFIRSTIOF BE THE COMPOSITION
IF WE GO TO GEENEVA,
OF THE PARTICIPANTS IN IT WILL L THE
GENEVA CONFERENCE SESSION, AND
PLACE IN SUBCOMMITTEES ON A BILATERAL GBASIS CBETWEENEISIAEL SUBJECT
EACH ONE OF THE STATES. A THIRD
FOR DISCUSSION-IS THE QUE~TAn~ OF THETGENEVAOCdNFERENCEE
THE
WE TALKING ABOUT, SINCE
IS TO ACHIEVE PEACE. THE NATURE OFTHE MAP WHICHHTAPA NYAEL WILL
PRESENT WILL BE LINKED TO THE NATURE PEACE- RATE9
WE DO NOTT CONSIDER THE RETURN TO THE 1967 RPT 1967 BORDERS
AS POSSIBLE. ((PASSAGE OMITTED))
AWAMONTHTHER~EOPPLETdHATEY0
((QUESTION)) THERE IS AN IMPRESSION
'DISPLAY A HAWKISH COLOR. ARE YOU
ULTIMATE OBJECTIVES, NAMELY, THE TS T?TE OF ISRAEL,
OR ONLY WITH REGARD TO THE WAY
((ANSWER)) I DO NOTT ENGAGE IN DEFINITIONS. I HAVE EXPLAINED
MY EXACT POSITION. WHAT IS IT? YOU DECIDE. BASICALLY,
BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING MUST BE DONE TO MAINTAIN ETURA
PROCESS WHILE INSURING MILITARY NOT
R I AM PREPARED FOR FAR-RESCUING Igp~iEPREPARI;DBTO ADVANCE TOWARD
TO THE 1967 RPT 1967 BORDERS. PEACE ALSO THROUGH INTERIM SETTLEMENTS, BUT )W3THMUY
MK/ER JEOPARDIZING
ISRAEL.
01/130OZ((PASSAGE
THE CSECURITY OF
JUN A
BT
#0016
No Objection to Declassification in Full 2010/06/11 : LOC-HAK-158-2-2-2