CODEL CURTIS MEETS WITH VICE FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HAI-JUNG

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP83B00100R000100130009-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: C
• Document Page Count: 35
• Document Creation Date: December 12, 2016
• Document Release Date: April 15, 2002
• Sequence Number: 9
• Publication Date: November 13, 1976
• Content Type: TELEGRAM

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- 0 R 131330E NOV 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6769
INFO RUMJDH/AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4000
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW 500
RUEHTP/AMEMBASSY TAIPEN 868
RUEHKO/AMEMBASSY TOKYO 1749
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TA GS: PF R PI IT_,_~H~
SUBJECT: CODECRT? S MEETS WJTH VICE _FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HA I-JUNG
SUMMARY. CODEL CURTIS MEETING NOVEMBER 13 WITH VICE
FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HA'I-JUNG PROVIDED NO SURPRISES
EXCEPT THAT WANG DID NOT AVAIL HERSELF OF OPPORTUNITY TO
TAKE SWIPE AT DETENTE. END SUMMARY.
1. IN HOUR AND FORTY MINUTE MEETING NOVEMBER 13 WITH
SENATOR CURTIS AND HIS FIVE COLLEAGUES AND AMBASSADOR
GATES, WANG HAI-JUNG PRESENTED A RATHER RELAXED AND
CONFIDENT EXTERIOR.
2. ON SI NO-SOVIET RELATI O NS, WANG REITERATED
CHINESE IDEOLOGICAL CRITICISM OF SOVIET REVISIONISM,
BUT STATED THAT "THE DEBATE OVER PRINCIPLES NEED NOT
HINDER AND OBSTRUCT STATE-TO-STATE RELATIONS." QUESTIONED
ABOUT SOVIET TROOPS ON CHINA'S BORDER, SHE DISMISSED
THEM AS TOO SPREAD OUT TO BE A SERIOUS THREAT, AND
CLAIMED THAT ANY INVASION WOULD BE "ANNIHILATED IN THE
GREAT SEA OF A PEOPLE'S WAR." IN ANY CASE, SHE SAID,
THE SOVIET THREAT WAS DIRECTED MAINLY AGAINST THE UNITED
STATES, NOT CHINA, SHE EMPHASISED THAT THE UNITED STATES
AND THE PRC HAVE A "VERY GREAT POINT IN COMMON" IN
COUNTERING SOVIET AMBITIONS. THROUGHOUT THE TALK, SHE
AVOIDED ANY CRITICISM OF DETENTE. SHE CHARACTERIZED THE
SOVIET UNION AS A WEAKLING, A PAPER TIGER, DUE TO ITS
INTERNAL ECONOMIC DIFFICULTIES AND ITS UNPOPULARITY
ABROAD.
3,IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION ABOUT NORMALIZATION, WANG
REPEATED THE STANDARD THREE POINTS ON TAIWAN: THE U.S.
MUST "SEVER DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S. AND
C
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TAIWAN, WITHDRAW AMERICAN TROOPS FROM TAIWAN, AND SHE
ABROGATE THE SO-CALLED DEFENSE; TREATY WITH TAIWAN. If
STATED F.URTHER THAT THE THREE PRINCIPLES ARE "INSEPARABLE
AND IND_ISPENSAELE T- ER-E..._C_.AN_ PE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE..
I E I O N n F TAI WAN, WE D Q N.L~-t I N SHE _SQ
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-TA -I WA N_-AN-D S~dF M T -H ODS_ WE WILL ADOFT T0 LIBE: ~~AIWAN
THIS IS PURELY AN I ~NTERNA NN MA FrTE~ WHAT INA AN~b X10 0-THE-
SV ER . HER
S o f)E
~ _ _ A E r[.-TI W-U- H6 nVER,WASMATT r: IM RESPONSE
MOOD THROUGHOUT?
TO A STATEMENT ABOUT TKE U.S. HOP.E FOR 'A PEACEFUL SOLUTION,
HE "NO
SHE FORCEFULLY, BUT WITH A SMILE? REPEATr-D T
PEACEFUL TRANSITION" REFRA IN.'S 1-E FURTHER
r"'i a A "MT AF no Tc:I IF; Of AND
E BIB ?ISS TE--I INTERNATI N A _ ON ." TROOPS ' ' t ~`
"THi--!;,
AK~ A f~11T?'r HETPRCIS Af I'T-UWlE WAS' U.'a.
IN KOREA, WANG REITERATED CHINA'S "'CONSISTENT STAND" (PV- rw
OF SUPPORT FOR THE NORTH KOREAN DE19AND FOR INDEPENDENT ViaA
~
A EFUL REUNIFICATION OF KOREA, FOR WITHDRAWAL _
S
AND
ED NATION
S TnnnPC AND THE DISSOLUTION OF THE UNIT
U
..
T
E KOREAN
H
i~ I
COMMAND. THE ISSUE OF KOREA SHOULD BE LE I TO
PEOPLE THEMSELVES TO SETTLE.
5. QUESTIONED ABOUT CHINESE FOREIGN POLICY
UNDER HUA KUO-FENG, SHE SAID ONLY THAT
HUA WAS LOYAL TO MAO'S REVOLUTIONARY LINE AND POLICIES
AND WOULD CARRY THEM OUT. INCLUDING THOSE IN FOREIGN
AFFAIRS. SHE DESCRIBED HUA'S SWIFT ACTION AGAINST THE
"GANG OF FOUR" AS A FULFILLMENT OF WHAT CHAIRMAN MAO
WOULD HAVE DONE HAD HE LIVED, AND REPEATED THE NOW
STANDARD STORY OF MAO'S EARLIER CRITICISM OF THE FOUR
AND HIS PERSONAL SELECTION OF HUA AS HIS SUCCESSOR.
6. FULL MEMCON WILL BE SENT 13Y CABLE AFTER CODEL HAS
CLEARED IT. GATES
STAT
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REF: PEKING 2345 ---
1, IN AN HOUR AND A HALF MEETING NOVEMBER 14 WITH CODEL
CURTIS, VICE PREMIER LI HSIEN-NIEN TOOK A RELAXED VIEW OF
US-CHINA RELATIONS, AVOIDED ALL MENTION OF CHINAIS
CONDITIONS FOR A TAIWAN SETTLEMENT. AND DID NOT MENTION DETENTE.
HE DESCRIBED CHINA'S MILITARY CONFRONTATION WITH THE SOVIET
UNION IN FAMILIAR TERMS, SAYING THAT THE SOVIET TROOPS ON
THE BORDER WERE DIRECTED PRIMARILY AGAINST THE U.S. AND a~'K
I JAPAN,
IV IA
2, ASKED ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR U -S . - PR C TRADE, L I S A I D
THAT CHINA NEEDED MANY THINGS, BUT WOULD IMPORT ONLY WHAT
IT COULD PAY FOR, CHINA HAD ONCE BEEN INDEBTED T O THE
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INDEBTEDNESS, HE ALSO MENTIONED HIGH AMERICAN TARIFFS
AS AN ADDITIONAL BARRIER TO TRADE.
3, D IS CU SS IN G_CEI"! S...E _N OM Y. L I REFERRED E_XP_.L-I_C-I TL.Y
TO THE FOUR MO DERNIATIONS A_DV ATE ED BY_-CI~iO-LA!
V RTS_ -REPORT0THE FOURTH NP C. HE REAFFIRMED THE
PRIORITIES AGRICULTURE, THEN LIGHT I NDUSTRY,.__THEN
_7R_ N-DU-STRY -ASKED-AB-TUT---THE FIFTH FIVE-YEAR. PLAN,
t'NOT-YETMATURED AND STILL UNDER DISCUSSION,"
HE ADDED, "IN DISC'USSING-_IT WE NAY FIND
SOME NEW PROBLEMS AND REVISE THE PLAN."
4. SEVERAL SENATORS IN THE CURTIS PARTY PRESSED LI
ON THE DESIRABILITY OF INCREASING EXCHANGES IN
ADVANCE OF NORMALIZATION IN ORDER To BUILD PUBLIC
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SUPPORT IN THE U;S, FOR THE STEP. LI WAS NUT
RESPONSIVE, HE REITERATED THAT CHINESE LEADERS WOULD NOT
VISIT WASHINGTON AS LONG AS AN EMBASSY OF THE "TAIWAN
CLIQUE" REMAINED THERE #
5, LI CITED VICE FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HAI-JUNG'S
STATEMENT DURING HER EARLIER MEETING WITH THE GROUP
THAT THE MAJOR ASPECT OF SINO-1.11,S. RELATIONS IS THE
INTERNATIONAL SITUATION AND THE MINOR QUESTION I S
TAIWAN, HE THEN SAID# "I THINK SHE PUT THE QUESTION
VERY WELL. NEVERTHELESS TAIWAN REMAINS AN ISSUE. I THINK OUR AMERICAN
FRIENDS, ESPECIALLY MR. GATES, HOW OUR VIEWS VERY WELL
SO I WON'T DISCUSS THIS ANY MORE."
6, M EM Cti N WILL B E SENT B Y CABLE AFTER CO DEE L HAS CLEARED IT- GATES
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TAGS I, PFOR, ECON. CH, US I UR, TW, OREP (CURT IS, CARL)
SUSJECTI TRANSCRIPT OF LT HSIEN-NIEN/CODEL CURTIS CONVERSATION
REFS PEKING 2353
It THERE FOLLOWS NEARLY VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT, CLEARED BY
SENATOR CU RT I S .. OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN CO DE L CURT-IS AND
. PRC VICE PREMIER LI HSIEN*NIEN ON NOVEMBER 14, 445
6115 P,M.. AT THE GREAT HALL OF THE PEOPLE. AMERICANS
PRESENT WERE i
CODELI
SENATOR AND MRS, CARL CURT IS
SENATOR AND MRS. BIRCH BAY H
SENATOR AND MRS, MILTON YOUNG
SENATOR AND MRS, ERNEST HOLLINGS
SENATOR AND -1'RS, TED STEVENS
SENATOR AND MRS. SENNETT JOHNSON
MR. AND MRS. ROBERT WOLTHJUS
MR w TERRY HOWE
MRr RICHARD HART
USLO I
AMBASSADOR GATES
MR # RICHARD BOCK
PRINCIPAL CHINESE PRESENTS IN ADDITION TO VICE
PREMIER L I P WERE 1
VICE FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HAI-JUNG
TANG WEN-SHENG, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, .,AMERICAN AND OCEANIAN
DEPARTMENT, MFA
KO PO-NIEN, VICE PRESIDENT, CHINESE PEOPLE'S INSTITUTE
OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (CPIFA)
KANG TAI-SHA, DEPUTY SECRETARYIGENERAL, CPIFA,
C O N F I D E N T I A L
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2, LI : WELCOME TO OUR FRIENDS,
CURTISI WE ARE DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.
LII TODAY YOU VISITED THE GREAT WALL?
CURT IS I WE HAVE READ OF IT THROUGH THE YEARS, FOR MANY OF US
THIS IS OUR FIRST VISIT TO CHINA AND WE WERE DELIGHTED TO VISIT
THE GREAT WALL,
LII IT'S A PLACE OF HISTORICAL, INTEREST. I WONDER WHETHER
ANY OF YOU HAVE BEEN TO CHINA BEFORE,
CURT IS I SENATOR STEVENS, TELL US OF YOUR FIRST TRIP TO CHINA.
STEVENS: I WAS IN THE 14TH AIR FORCE, STATIONED IN KUNMING AND
WAS HERE IN PEKING IN 1945 RIGHT AFTER THE WAR ENDED.
LII THAT IS UNDER CHENNAULT?
STEVENSI YES, I SERVED WITH GENERAL CHENNAULT,
LII YOU WERE IN CHINA DURING WORLD WAR 11, AT THAT TIME YOU
HAD A TRANSPORT TEAM e
STEVENS: I WAS A PILOT. I FLEW TRANSPORT PLANES INTO SIAN.
HANKOW, KWEILIN, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY,
LII HOW LONG SINCE YOU ARRIVED IN CHINA?
CURT IS WE ARRIVED LAST MONDAY, HAD A DELIGHTFUL STAY IN
SHANGHAI, TOOK THE TRAIN TO NANKING, ENJOYED OUR STAY THERE OF
TWO NIGHTS AND THEN HAD A VERY PLEASANT TRAIN RIDE HERE. WE HAVE
BEEN TREATED WONDERFULLY,
LII SO YOU ARRIVED THE 8TH OF NOVEMBER. IN SHANGHAI DID YOU
READ THE SIG CHARACTER POSTERS?
CURT IS WE COULDN'T READ THEM OURSELVES, I3UT OUR GUIDES TOLD US
ABOUT SOME OF THEM.
L I I YOU HAVE ARRIVED I N CHINA AT. A TIME THAT THE CENTRAL
COMMITTEE HAS MADE THE DECISION TO APPOINT HUA KUO-FENG AS
CHAIRMAN OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE AND OF THE MILITARY COMMISSION
OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE+ IT IS ALSO AT THE' TIME THAT WE HAVE
EXPLAINED THE SCHEMES OF THE GANG OF FOUR -- WANG HUNG-WEN, CHANG
CHUN-CHIAO, CHIANG CHINGi AND YAO WEN-YUA'N. THE DECISION WAS MADE IN
OCTOBER, THUS, YOU MUST HAVE
SEEM MANY BIG CHARACTER POSTERS IN-SHANGHAI.
C 0 N F I D E N T I A L
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EXDIS -----
CURTIS: YES, WE DID.
LI:, THAT WAS A MAJOR EVENT IN CHINA. THIS YEAR FIRST PREMIER
CHOU EN-LAI PASSED AWAY, THEN CHU TEH, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE NATIONAL
PEOPLE'S CONGRESS, AND THEN OUR GREAT LEADER AND TEACHER CHAIRMAN
MAO TSE-TUNG?
CURTIS: WE FOLLOW ALL THE NEWS WE GET FROM CHINA BECAUSE WE VALUE THE
FRIENDSHIP OF YOUR GREAT COUNTRY. WE WISH TO EXPRESS OUR CONDOLENCES
ON THE LOSS OF YOUR LEADERS, PARTICULARLY CHAIRMAN MAO. ALSO, WE
BRING GREETINGS TO YOU FROM PRESIDENT FORD.
LI: THANK YOU. WHEN PRESIDENT FORD VISITED CHINA LAST YEAR,
I MET HIM, PLEASE CONVEY MY GREETINGS TO HIM.
CURT IS : THANK YOU, I WILL DO So. A FEW DAYS BEFORE I LEFT THE U.S.
I HAD A CALL FROM FORMER PRESIDENT NIXON AND HE ASKED THAT I CONVEY
HIS GREETINGS TO CHINA AND THE CHINESE PEOPLE.
LI: PLEASE CONVEY MY THANKS TO MR.'NIXON.
CURTIS: YOU'LL BE PLEASED TO KNOW THAT WHEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF
OUR VISIT WAS MADE, ALL OF US EXPERIENCED A TREMDNDOUS RESPONSE
FROM OUR PEOPLE WHO EXPRESSED A GREAT INTEREST IN CHINA. MY
NEBRASKA CONSTITUENTS WERE DELIGHTED THAT WE WERE MAKING THIS TRIP.
LI: YOUR STATE HAS A HIGHLY DEVELOPED AGRICULTURE.
CURTIS: YES,'WE ARE A GREAT AGRICULTURAL STATE. A NUMBER OF
THE SENATORS HERE REPRESENT AGRICULTURAL STATES AND WE HAVE BEEN
TREMENDOUSLY IMPRESSED BY THE INDUSTRIOUSNESS OF YOUR AGRICULTURAL
W ORKERS.
LI: SENATOR YOUNG, YOU ARE ALSO FROM AN AGRICULTURAL STATE, I
BELIEVE.
YOUNG: I'M A F ARMER MYSELF AND MY THREE SONS F ARM, ONE OF THE
AMAZING THINGS TO ME IS THAT YOUR LAND HAS BEEN PRODUCING FOR
2,000 YEARS OR MORE AND PRODUCES JUST AS WELL AS OURS WHICH HAS
BEEN PRODUCING FOR ONLY A LITTLE OVER EEONE ONE-HUNDRED YEARS.
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LI: IN THE PAST 2,000 YEARS OR MORE WE WERE UNDER FEUDAL RULE
AND PRODUCTION WAS RESTRAINED. AFTERWARDS, THERE WAS AGGRESSION
BY FOREIGN IMPERIALIST STATES SO OUR AGRICULTURE DID NOT DEVELOP.
BEFORE LIBERATION (IN 1949) PRODUCTION WAS BACKWARD IN CHINA
AND NOT ONLY DRAFT ANIMALS BUT ALSO HUMAN BEINGS HAD TO
PULL PLOWS. THERE WAS THE RUTHLESS PLUNDER BY.LANDLORDS
AND BUREAUTCRATICMCAPITALISTS, AS WELL AS BY IMPERIALISTS. SO
PEASANTS
AT THAT TIME WERE IN A DIRE PLIGHT. IT WAS NOT SURPRISING THAT
SEVERAL MILLION PEASANTS STARVED TO DEATH. THAT WAS THE
SITUATION DURING THE FEUDAL DYNASTIES AND UNDER CHIANG KAI-SHEK
RULE. YOU MIGHT VERY WELL STUDY WHY CHIANG KAI-SHEK FELL,
THERE MUST BE SOME REASONS BEHIND IT. IT WAS BECAUSE HE
OFFENDED THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, ABOVE ALL HE OFFENDED THE
PEASANTS AND WORKERS. NOW IN CHINA, WITH SUCH A VAST TERRITORY
AND 800 MILLION PEOPLE, WE HAVE SOLVED THE FOOD PROBLEM IN T H
MAIN, SO PEOPLE WON'T STARVE TO DEATH OR; DIE OF COLD. THIS WAS
THE GREAT ACHIEVEMENT MADE UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF CHAIRMAN MAO
AND BY RELYING ON THE EFFORTS OF THE BROAD MASSES OF PEOPLE.
BUT WE ARE NOT SATISFIED. JUST_NOW I SAID WE HAD SOLVED
THE FOOD PROBLEM IN THE MAIN. IT IS NOT YET COMPLETELY SOLVED AND
WE MUST CONTINUE OUR EFFORTS. WE JUST HAVE SUFFICIENT FOOD GRAIN
TO FEED OUR PEOPLE. WE HAVE SOME TO EXPORT BUT WE ALSO IMPORT
SOME. THE AMOUNT IS LIMITED COMPARED TG , YOURS. WE EXPORT
ONE OR TWO MILLION TONS AND IMPORT ABOUT THE SAME. WE MUST
RELY ON OUR OWN EFFORTS AND RUN EVERYTHING WITH OUR OWN STRENGTH.
CURTIS: I WISH TO COMEND YOU ON YOUR GREAT PROGRESS, AND ON
YOUR DETERMINATION TO Be SELF-SUFFICIENT IN FOOD, YOU HAVE DONE A
GREAT JOB. I UNDERSTAND YOUR E=XPORTS INCLUDE: SOME RICE. IS THAT
RIGHT?
LI: WE EXPORT SOME RICE AND SOY BEANS.
CURTIS: WHAT DO YOU IMPORT?
LI : A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WHEA T, A LSO SOME FOOD GRAINS FROM
YOUR COUNTRY.
CURTIS: WHILE WE COMMEND YOUR DETERMINATION TO BE
SELF-SUFFICIENT IN FOOD GRAIN. IF YOU HAVE TO BUY ANY, PLEASE
COME TO US. SENATOR YOUNG IS A WHEAT FARMER AND SO IS
SENATOR BAYH?
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UT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.
CURTIS: THEN WE MUST BUY SOMETHING FROM YOU. DO YOU HAVE SOME
OIL TO SELL US?
LI: WE ARE JUST SELF-SUFFICIENT IN OIL. OUR SURPLUS IS
NOT MUCH. OF COURSE WE HAVE BIG OIL DEPOSITS.
CURTIS: WE UNDERSTAND THE POTENTIAL IS VERY GREAT.
LI: YES, YOU'RE RIGHT, FURTHER EFFORTS SHOULD.BE MADE FOR
EXPLORATION. OUR OIL INDUSTRY IS STILL VERY YOUNG AND IN THE
PAST WE HAD VERY LITTLE. IN 1960 WE BEGAN TO HAVE OUR OWN OIL
INDUSTRY. BUT WE HAD TO IMPORT OIL FROM OTHtRS, ESPECIALLY
FROM OUR NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH WHO TRIED TO STRANGLE US.
PERHAPS YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY OUR NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH. WE'VE HAD
BAD RELATIONS.
CURTIS: WE DON'T THINK THEY'RE VERY NEIGHBORLY.
LI! THEY SEEK HEGEMONY.
CURTIS: THE MAJOR REASON THE U.S. SPENDS SO MUCH TO STAY STRONG
MILITARILY IS THAT WE FEEL THAT WILL RETARD ANY CHANCE THAT THE SOVIET
UNION WILL TRY AGGRESSION.
LI: THE SOVIETS HAVE BIG AMBITIONS, AND WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE
WHOLE GLOBE. BUT THEY ARE UNABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT BECAUSE
THEIR STRENGTH IS NOT THAT GREAT. POLITICALLY. THEY SEEK HEGEMONY
NO MATTER WHAT TRICKS OR FINE WORDS- THEY USE, THEY WILL EVENTUALLY
BE EXPOSED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD. THEIR SEEKING HEGEMONY
MAKES THEM THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD'S PEOPLE. AT HOME THERE IS
LOPSIDED DEVELOPMENT IN THE SOVIET ECONOMY, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH
FOOD TO EAT, NOT ENOUGH FOOD GRAINS. SOME PEOPLE SATIRIZE THE
SOVIET UNION BY SAYING THE SOVIETS SOW SEEDS IN
THE UKRAINE AND HARVEST CROPS IN THE US.
THEIR TOP PRIORITY IS THE DEVELOPMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENSE AND IN
DOMESTIC POLICIES THE SOVIET UNION OPPRESSES THE MINORITY NATIONAL-
C O N F I D E N T I A L
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ITIES AND PRACTICES FASCIST RULE. ACTUALLY THEY ARE VERY
FEEBLE.
CURT IS t YOU HAVE HAD A LONG AND DISTINGUISHED CAREER AND YOU
ARE A STUDENT OF ECONOMICS. WHY IN YOUR OPINION IS THE SOVIET
ECONOMY WEAK?
LI: I'M NO STUDENT OF ECONOMICS. I'M NOT A SCHOLAR OF ECONOMICS.
BUT I DID FIGHT IN THE WAR. IN MY VIEW, THE SOVIET UNION HAS
OFFENDED THE WORKERS AND PEASANTS AND BROAD MASSES OF. THE PEOPLE,
THEREFORE THERE IS NO ENTHUSIASM ON THEIR PART. IN PLANNING, THEY
GIVE PROMINENCE TO DEVELOPMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENSE. OTHER BRANCHES
OF INDUSTRY MACHINE BUILDING, CHEMICALS, ETC, -- ARE LAGGING BE-
HIND. IN RELATIONS BETWEEN INDUSTRY AND AGRICULTURE, THEY
NEGLECT THE DEVELOPMENT OF AGRICULTURE. YOU CAN STUDY WHETHER OR
NOT I'M RIGHT. IN THE SOVIET UNION LINE, PRINCIPLES, AND
POLICIES ARE ALL WRONG. THEY PRACTICE REVISIONISM AND FASCISM,
AND THERE IS NO WAY TO MOB IL ICE THE ENTHUSIASM OF THE WORKERS,
PEASANTS AND OTHER PEOPLE.
CURTIS! WE IN THE U.S. ARE VERY AWARE OF.THE' SOVIET MILITARY
THREAT AND THE GREAT SUMS THEY ARE SPENDING ON ARMAMENTS. THAT IS
WHY WE INTEND TO STAY STRONG, WHY WE MAKE SACRIFICES IN MANY
PARTS OF THE WORLD TO RESIST SOVIET AGGRESSION.
LI: WE ARE ALSO AWARE OF SOVIET MILITARY STRENGTH, BUT THEY
TALK OF DISARMAMENT EVERY DAY.
CURT IS: DO YOU THINK TIE SOVIETS HAVE PLANS FOR WESTERN EUROPE IF
THEY ARE NOT RESISTED?
LI: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY PLANS? THE SOVIETS THINK FIRST OF ALL
ABOUT EUROPE.
CURTIS: I MEAN AGGRESSIVE PLANS.
LI: SOME PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TEND TO THINK THAT THE FOCUS
OF SOVIET STRATEGY LIES IN THE EAST. CHAIRMAN MAO THOUGHT THAT.
THE SOVIET STRATEG IC FOCUS WAS IN EUROPE, INCLUDING THE MIDDLE
EAST. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE WILL SLACKEN OUR VIGILANCE. WE ARE
HEIGHTENING OUR VIGILANCE. THAT IS WHY WE DIG TUNNELS DEEP AND
STORE GRAIN EVERYWHERE. BY DIGGING TUNNELS DEEP WE MEAN IF THE
SOVIETS INVADE US WE WILL FIGHT BACK. MAO TAUGHT US TO PREPARE
AGAINST WAR, PREPARE AGAINST NATURAL DISASTERS, AND DO EVERYTHING
FOR THE PEOPLE. BY PREPARING FOR WAR WE MEAN IF THE SOVIETS ATTACK
CH :NA, WE CERTAINLY WILL FIGHT BACK. BUT THE FOCUS OF SOVIET
STRATEGY REMAINS IN EUROPE INCLUDING THE MIDDLE EAST, SO WE
.SUPPORT A UNITED EUROPE. BUT AT PRESENT THE
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TOR:1617082 NOV 76
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE TOO DIVIDED.
CURT I S t D O YOU SUPPORT THE EFFORTS OF THE UNITED STATES T O
MAKE NATO STRONG?
LI: YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LEAVE EUROPE,-NEITHER CAN EUROPE.
CURTISt THE US HAS ASSUMED RESPONSIBILITY IN SO MANY PLACES
IN THE WORLD AND WE EXPECT TO CONTINUE THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES. SO
WE WELCOME THE SUPPORT OF THE GREAT PEOPLE OF CHINA IN OPPOSITION
TO SOVIET AGGRESSION.
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TOR11617081 NOV 76
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INFO RUMJDH.AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4017
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LII WE HOPE YOU WILL ESTABLISH AN EQUAL PARTNERSHIP WITH EUROPE
AND ALL OTHER PEOPLES OF THE WORLD?
CURTISI DO THE SOVIETS HAVE MANY TROOPS ON YOUR BORDERS?
LI I THEY CLAIM TO HAVE STATIONED ABOUT ONE MILLION TROOPS ON THE
BORDER. THE BORDER EXTENDS OVER MANY THOUSANDS OF KILOMETERS. ITS
A LONG FRONT LINE;I DO YOU THINK THE ONE MILLION TROOPS ARE
DIRECTED AGAINST CHINA ONLY? I THINK THEY ARE PRIMARILY DIRECTED
AGAINST THE U,S.1 THEN AGAINST JAPAN, AND-OF COURSE ARE ALSO
DIRECTED AGAINST CHINA. ONE MILLION TROOPS IS NOT. ENOUGH TO FIGHT
AGAINST CHINA, EVEN IF THEY ADDED ANOTHER ONE MILLION IT WOULD
NOT BE ENOUGH, NOR EVEN TWO MILLION MORE.. IF THE SOVIETS COME,
WE'LL YIELD SOME PLACES TO THEM. THEN CLOSE OUR DOOR AND BEAT THE
DOG INSIDE THE ROOM. WHEN THE DOOR IS CLOSED, IT-IS EASIER TO,
DEAL WITH THE DOG AND TO BEAT THE DOG. THAT WAS THE WAY WE
FOUGHT THE JAPANESE. WE CLOSED THE DOOR AND THOROUGHLY
ANNIHILATED THE JAPANESE, AT THAT TIKE, CHINA WAS RULED BY
CHIANG KAIj-SHEK AND LARGE TRACTS 'OF TERRITORY IN THE NORTH AND
CENTRAL CHINA WERE LEFT TO US BECAUSE CHIANG KAIw$HEK RAN AWAY.
CHIANG KAI-SHEK FIRST RAN FROM THE NORTHEAST AND THE JAPANESE
OCCUPIED IT. THEN FROM NORTH. CENTRAL, SOUTH AND EAST CHINA.
CHIANG KAI-SHEK TROOPS WERE RUNNING IN,FRONT OF THE JAPANESE AND
OUR TROOPS WERE RUNNING AFTER THE JAPANESE. THEY TURNED THEIR
BACKS Tv" THE JAPANESE BUT?WE FACED THE JAPANESE. DURING THE WAR
OF RESISTANCE AGAINST THE JAPANESE t NORTH, CENTRAL, EVEN EAST AND
SOUTH CHINA WAS LED BY THE COMMUNIST PARTY. SO ONE MILLION
SOVIET TROOPS ON THE BORDER WILL BE NO MATCH FOR US.
IN FINAL ANALYSIS; THE FOCUS OF THE SOVIET STRATEGY IS EUROPE,
MY FRIENDS MAY NOT BELIEVE MY WORDS BUT FACTS WILL BEAR ME
OUT, AS FOR THE DISARMAMENT THEY ARE ALWAYS
TALKING ABOUT. WE DON'T BELIEVE IT. IC
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TOR1 1617082 NOV 76
CURT IS s WHAT WOULD B E THE BEST STRATEGY IN EUROPE TO OPPOSE
SOVIET AGGRESSION?
LIB I DON'T KNOW, THE SOVIET UNION WANTS TO SWALLOW UP THAT
PLACE,
CURT 151 ARE YOU MAKING PROGRESS IN YOUR ARMAMENT PROGRAM?
L I SINCE WE MUST MAKE PREPARATIONS AGAINST WAR, WE MUST MANUFACTURE
SOME THINGS.
CURTISI YOU HAVE BEEN VERY GRACIOUS IN RECEIVING US. I WOULD LIKE TO
YIELD AT THIS POINT TO THE VICE CHAIRMAN OF OUR DELEGATION,
SENATOR BIRCH BAYW OF THE STATE OF INDIANA. HE MIGHT WISH TO MAKE
SOME COMMENTS OR ASK SOME QUESTIONS.
BAYHI MR. VICE PREMIER. THIS IS MY FIRST TIME IN YOUR COUNTRY.
EARLIER
I SAW IT THROUGH THE EYES OF MY FATHER WHO WAS HERE AT THE TIME WHEN
SENATOR STEVENS WAS HEREa BUT IT'S NOT LIKE SEEING IT MYSELF, MY WIFE
AND I ARE DELIGHTED AND EXTREMELY IMPRESSED BY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN.
IT WOULD BE REMISS OF US NOT TO INDICATE OUR GRA1'f TUDE
TO YOUR VICE FOREIGN MINISTER WHO MET US YESTERDAY., TO OUR HOST
AT THE BANQUET AND TO ALL THOSE, INCLUDING MADAME KANG, WHO HAVE
SHOWN US THE KINDEST HOSPITALITY.
L I - WHAT YEARS WAS YOUR FATHER I N CHINA?
BAYH E 1943-45, I'M A FARMER BASICALLY AS WELL AS A SENATOR. I HAVE
BEEN IMPRESSED B Y THE WAY THAT THE GREATEST AM OU Nt O F PRODUCTION I S
OBTAINED FROM EACH SQUARE CENTIMETER OF GROUND, BY THE INDUSTRIOUS-
NE SS
OF YOUR PEOPLE AND BY THE DIVERSIFICATION OF YOUR AGRICULTURE. WE
HAVE SEEN ALL THIS AS WELL AS YOUR CANCER INSTITUTE, YOUR HOSPITAL,
INDUSTRIES. IT IS TO SEE THE LEGEND OF CHAIRMAN MAO COME ALIVE.
WE CAN THUS REALIZE BETTER THE DEPTH OF THE GRIEF YOUR COUNTRY MUST
HAVE A T THE DEATH OF THE CHAIRMAN, AND W E WISH T O CONVEY OUR
SYMPATHY,
L11 TH L K YOU,
BAYHI I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOUR THOUGHTS ON A DIFFERENT AREA.
YOU HAVE UNDERSTANDABLY TALKED ABOUT DEFENSE AGAINST THE WAR-MAKING
POTENTIAL OF THE SOVIET UNION, WHICH I S OF COURSE EXTREMELY IMPORT-
ANTI WE ARE ALL CONCERNED THAT ANOTHER WAR WITH THE MODERN INSTRUMENTS OF
WAR NOW AVAILABLE WOULD BE A HOLOCAUST. I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT
PEACE, I DO NOT WISH TO CONTRADICT pANYTHITTNGII
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YOU HAVE SAID BUT WE HAVE HEARD OF THE IMPORTANT
WORK YOU HAVE GIVEN IN ECONOMIC GUIDANCE I N HELPING CHAIRMAN MAO #
I BELIEVE YOU ARE AN ECONOMIC GENIUS. I APPRECIATE YOUR MODESTY, BUT
I
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0 R 1609092 NOV 76
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9Et1 VE CAN SEE YOUR EXPERTISE EVERYWHERE.
LIs YOU FLATTER ME.
BAYH= THIS HAS BEEN A LONG PROLOGUE. I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR THOUGHT
S
ON WHAT I THINK OUR WHOLE COUNTRY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, AS I UNDERSTAND
SOMETIME THIS YEAR YOU WILL PROMULGATE YOUR FIFTH FIVE YEAR PLAN OF
YOUR COUNTRY. ARE THERE ELEMENTS IN THIS PLAN WHICH YOU COULD DISCLOS
.E
TO US IN WHICH A CLOSER
RELATIONSHIP OF FRIENDSHIP AND COOPERATION BETWEEN CHINA AND THE US
COULD BE BENEFICIAL? ARE THERE WAYS IN WHICH WE COULD BE OF ASSISTANC
E .
-- ALTHOUGH I CAN APPRECIATE YOUR STRONG FEELING OF SELF-RELIANCE --
TRADE OPPORTUNITIES, MACHINERY, FACTORIES, EQUIPMENT AND A LARGE
RANGE OF AREAS WHICH COULD BE PART OF THE,
CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP BETEWEN OUR TWO COUNTRIES?
LIr SPEAKING ABOUT OUR PLAN IS COMPLEX AND INVOLVES LOTS OF
ASPECTS. IT IS DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY.
DURING HIS LIFETIME, CHAIRMAN MAO NOT ONLY LAID DOWN THE BASIC
LINE FOR POLICY FIJT ALSO THE BASIC LINE AND
PRINCIPLES FOR CONSTRUCTION OF THE COUNTRY. THESE PRINCIPLES WERE
STATED IN THE REPORT BY THE LATE PREMIER CHOU EN-LAI AT THE FOURTH NP
C.
HE DISCUSSED THE MODERNIZATION OF INDUSTRY, AGRICULTURE. NATIONAL
DEFENSE, AND SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY. IN MAKING ECONOMIC PLANS, WE
MUST FIRST THINK OF THE 800 MILLION PEOPLE AND BEAR
IN MIND THE FOOD, CLOTHING AND HOUSING PROBLEMS OF 800 MILLION PEOPLE
SO WE PLAN THE ECONOMY IN THE ORDER OF AGRICULTURE, LIGHT INDUSTRY
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AND HEAVY INDUSTRY. THIS WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE TEACHINGS OF CHAIRMA
N
MAO THAT WE MUST FIRST DEVELOP AGRICULTURE. IF WE DONUT HAVE ENOUGH
FOOD FOR OUR PEOPLE, EVEN IF WE IMPORT 10 OR 20 MILLION TONS OF GRAIN
THIS WOULD NOT SOLVE OUR PROBLEM. IF AGRICULTURE IS DEVELOPED. IT
IS EASIER TO DEVELOP LIGHT INDUSTRY,. AND HEAVY INDUSTRY WILL HAVE A
SOLID FOUNDATION, SO WE MAKE OUR PLANS ACCORDING TO THIS PRINCIPLE.
WE HAVE A PLAN BUT IT IS NOT YET FINALIZED. WE HAVE NO INTENT
MAKING IT PUB... THE PLAN HAS NOT YET MATURED STILL UNDER
"DTSD N. IN DISCUSSING IT WE MAY FIND NEWW PROBLEMS AND REVISE THE
PLAN, AS FOR RELATIONS BETWEEN OUR TWO COUNTRIES, ESPECIALLY
TRADE, IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN. WE HAVE BOUGHT SOME EQUIPMENT FROM THE
us
--SUCH AS CHEMICAL FERTILIZER PLANTS.
BAYHS THE KELLOGG UREA PLANTS.
LI: IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE_E;D PHIS AND ARE ABLE TO DO IT. THE
QUESTION OF NECESSITY;IS EASY. RUT IF WE. ASK OUR MINISTER+ HE WILL
.
ASK FOR MANY THINGS. AS FOR OUR ABILITY. THAT IS VERY DjILLUO
WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUY, ONT-R-TNCIPLI WE RELY ON OUR OWN
EFFORTS. MAINLY WE RELY ON OUR OWN EFFOR'TS. WE DO NOT PLAN TO BE IN
DEBT. WE WERE ONCE IN DEBT TO THE SOVIET UNION. OUR DEBTS TO THE SOVI
ET
UNION WERE INCURRED IN 1950-51 DURING THE WAR OF RESISTANCE AGAINST
THE U.S. AND TO ASSIST KOREA. WE FOUGHT A WAR IN THAT COUNTRY, OUR
TWO COUNTRIES. IT IS NOT PLEASANT TO BE A DEBTOR,
BAYHi IT IS NOT PLEASANT TO BE A CREDITOR OF THE SOVIETS EITHER.
L I : EEa a .THE SS O____I ET1lN I a .FINDS IZ__P_LZASANT. THEN WE MADE
OUR MINDS UP TO REPAY ALL DEBTS TO THE SOVIET UNION. AFTER THAT WE
NEVER INCURRED ANY FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC DEBTS, ONCE WE ISSUED PUBLIC
BONDS BUT W E LATER REPAID THEM. SO A S TO TRADE BETWEEN OUR
TWO COUNTRIES, WE'LL HAVE TO SE. I HAVE JUST SAID THAT IT DEPENDS ON
NECESSITT AND ABILITY. ANOTHER THING IS YOUR HIGH TARRIFF WHICH IS
TROUBLESOME. I THINK IT IS NOT EASY TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM FOR THE
TIME BEING. ROUGHLY THIS IS WHERE WE ARE AT THE PRESENT STAGE. I
THINK WE IMPORT MORE FROM THE U.S. THAN YOU DO FROM US.
BAYH: YOU HAVE BEEN VERY KIND AND I APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE.
WHAT I ASKED WAS IN RESPECT TO OUR FUTURE RELATIONS. I THINK THAT TO
THE EXTENT THAT WE CAN INCREASE TRADE OPPORTUNITIES, PERMIT MORE
PEOPLE OF THE US TO VISIT CHINA AND MORE ?CHINESE TO VISIT THE U.S.
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THERE HAS BEEN SOME OF THIS BUT IT SHOULD BE INCREASED -- TO
THE EXTENT THAT TRADE AND OTHER OPEN DOOR POLICIES CAN BE PURSUED
THEY WILL HELP TO FIND A SOLUTION. THE GROUP HERE IS GOING BACK
.AS AMBASSADORS OF GOODWILL?FOR CHINA.
LI: AT PRESENT THERE ARE TS OF EXCHANGES A LREA DY.
CURTIS! WE FEEL PRIVILEGED AND APPRECIATE ,T P ORTUNITY TO
CARRY ON THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOU. I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND TO
MY COLLEAGUES THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY SOMETHING OR TO ASK QUESTIONS.
YOUNG: FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO S'AY THAT I DEEPLY APPRECIATE THE
-REAL FRIENDSHIP WHICH WE HAVE RECEIVED WHILE HERE. YOU HAVE OPENED
YOUR DOORS TO US AND SHOWED US REAL FRIENDSHIP. I WOULD LIKE TO SAY
ALSO' THAT NO OTHER NATION IN THE WORLD COULD FEED, CLOTHE, EDUCATE,
AND PROVIDE SUCH GOOD CARE OF 800 MILLION PEOPLE, TO _DO THIS AND TO
STAY OUT OF DEBT IS SOMETHING. WE COULD LEARN A FEW THINGS FROM YOU A
BOUT
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STAYING OUT OF DEBT. THANK YOU.
HOLLINGS: MR. VICE PREMIER, I APPRECIATE VERY MUCH THE OPPORTUNITY
AND I AM PARTICULARLY HONORED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOU,
SINCE YOU ARE WELL KNOWN IN THE U.S. AS ONE OF THE LAST OF THE
VETERANS OF THE LONG MARCH AND AS A PARTNER WITH CHAIRMAN MAO
AND PREMIER GHOU IN THE MODERNIZATION OF CHINA.
LI: WELL WORK STILL HARDER TO BUILD OUR COUNTRY UNDER THE
LEADERSHIP OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE HEADED BY CHAIRMAN HUA, RELYING
ON THE EFFORTS OF THE PROPLE.
HOLLINGS: AS A SENATOR, I MUST POINT OUT THAT I SPEAK INDIVIDUALLY.
WE ARE TOLD THATANYTHING A U.S. SENATOR MAY UTTER IS CONSIDERED
A POSITION OF THE USG. THAT IS NOT TRUE. EACH ONE OF US SPEAKS FOR
HIMSELF. THERE ARE FIVE OTHER SENATORS HERE: AND THEY DO NOT
SPEAK FOR ME AND I CANNOT SPEAK FOR THEM. I. BELIEVE YOU HAVE AN
INVESTMENT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT IT TOOK TO BRING ME
ALL THE WA'Y TO CHINA AND I WISH, TOi SPEAK FRANKLY. SPEAKING FOR
MYSELF,
WE BELIEVE IN,THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE AND WE
BELIEVE WE ARE ADHERING TO THE PRINCIPLES, AND AS THE COMMUNIQUE
STATES, AS TENSIONS EASE, WE CAN CONTINUE TO MAKE PROGRESS UNDER THE
SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE. WE BELIEVE THIS TRIP,SO GENEROUSLY PROVIDED TO
US. HAS HELPED TO EASE TENSIONS AND CERTAINLY HAS-ENHANCED MY UNDER-
STANDING AND APPRECIATION OF CHINA. AS SENATOR, I BELIEVE THAT THERE
IS ONE CHINA AND THAT YOU ARE THAT CHINA.
LI: YOU'RE RIGHT.
HOLLINGS: HOWEVER, WE HAVE HAD FRIENDS OF LONG STANDING ON
TAIWAN AND AS A SENATOR, I DON'T BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF THE
U.S. SENATORS WOULD ABRUPTLY ABANDON THAT FRIENDSHIP, A JOURNEY OF
1,000 MILES, THEY SAY IN CHINA, BEGINS WITH ONE STEP. I THINK WE
SHOULD MAKE STEPS TOGETHER TO TRY TO INCREASE TRADE,
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TOR:i617092 NOV 76
OPEN AIR ROUTES, AND,ON OUR SIDE REDUCE TROOPS ON TAIWAN TO
MAKE STEPS TO THE REALIZATION OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE
PRINCIPLES. WE IN THE US HAVE NEVER. BELIEVED IN HEGEMONY. THE FACT IN
OUR LONG HISTORY IS THAT WE GAVE FREEDOM TO THE PHILIPPINES
AND CUBA.
AFTER WORLD WAR 11 IN WHICH WE DEFEATED GERMANY, ITALY, AND JAPAN,
WE NOT ONLY GAVE THEM FREEDOM BUT ALSO' FINANCED THEIR RECOVERY.
LI: PE PLE IN THE WORL ELIEVE Y ILL HEGEM Y.
itjs HO L L I N G S:
k,,WE ABSOLUTELY REFUTE THAT BY OUR OWN ACTS OVER 200 YEARS
HS,~ OF HISTORY. SH NOTHING BUT FREEDOM FOR THE PEOPLES AND I THINK
THE U.S. AND CHINA WORKING TOGETHER COULD BRING ABOUT FREEDOM AND
ECONOMIC SUSTENANCE TO THE THIRD WORLD.
I'M SURE THIS VISIT HAS SERVED AS A PLATFORM OR STJATING POINT rnR
....tE,, AS A SENATOR TO UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE THE GREATNESS OF CHINA
AND I HOPE SIMILAR VISITS BY, Ycl R DISTINGUISHED LEADERS TO THE U.S.
WILL FOLLOW.
LI: HOW CAN WE GO TO THE US SINCE THE EMBASSY OF THE TAIWAN CLIQUE IS
THERE?
HOLLINGS: THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE WILL HAVE TO SOLVE
AND WE IN THE SENATE W ILL BE WORKING ON THAT PROBLEM.
LI: THE SOLUTION MUST CONFORM TO THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE.
CURTIS: SENATOR S.TEVENS OF ALASKA.
LI: THAT IS THE NORTHERNMOST STATE.
STEVENS: YES WE ARE. ALASKA IS SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TO YUNNAN PROVINCE
WHERE I WAS STATIONED DURING THE WAR. IT MAY INTEREST YOU TO KNOW
THAT THOSE?OF US IN THE AIR FORCE HERE HAD GREAT RES SECT FOR YOUR
PEOPLE IN NTH E NORTH. MY SQUADRON SUPPLIED YOUR TROOPS AT TIMES. YOU
SPEAK THE TRUTH WHEN YOU SAY YOU REALLY FOUGHT THE JAPANESE. WE
KNEW THAT AND RESPECTED YOU FOR IT. MY LARGE COLLEAGUE FROM THE
SOUTH,
HE SPEAKS CANDIDLY AND WE RESPECT HIS CANDOR. BUT I'D LIKE TO
PURSUE HIS POINT. ISN'T THERE SOME WAY E COULD START THE FLOW
OF VISITS BOTH WAYS? WE HAVE DIFFICULTIES IN CONGRESS IN BEING
ABLE TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS RELATIONSHIP
BASED ON A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING . YOUR PEOPLE HAVE DOUBLED SINCE I
WAS HERE. YOUR HOUSING AND FOOD PROBLEMS HAVE BEEN SOLVED, BUT THAT
WORD ISN'T G ETTIN3 BACK TO THE U.S. WE NEED: MORE OF OUR PEOPLE
COMING THIS WAY BUT ALSO MORE OF YOUR PEOPLE COMING TO THE U.S. TO
VISIT
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MESSAGE
NC 561Y41`
COLLEGES, OUR COUNTIES, OUR CITIES, TO INCREASE FRIENDSHIP AND
UNDERSTANDING. I HAVE BEEN AMAZED BY THE FRIENDSHIP I HAVE FOUND
HERE.
I AM DEEPLY IMPRESSED BY THE SMILES I HAVE.SEEN ON THE
STREETS HERE BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE THAT DURING THE WAR. PERHAPS
PEOPLE DON'T SMILE DURING WARS. BUT THIS IS A TWO WAY STREET. THIS
APPROACH TO NORMALIZATION. SOMEHOW I DON'T SEE MUCH COMING OUR WAY
ON THAT TWO-WAY STREET.
G/-" -- )
I BY\
''`.SON/UNIT NOTIFIED I C 0 N F I D E N T I A L
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141
T 386157 EI A820
PAGE @1 CCl i.'' NC 56754
TOR:170458E NOV 76
0 R 17003@E NOV 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6795
INFO RUMJDH/AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4021
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW 510
RUEHTP/AMEMBASSY TAIPEI 881
RUEHKO/AMEMBASSY TOKYO 1765
BT
7m, & x A/() /
0 N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 1 OF 41 PEKING 2370
EXDI
E.0..1,1652: XGDS-1
TAGS: PFOR, ECON, CH, US, UR, TW, OREP (CURTIS, CARL)
SUBJECT: TRANSCRIPT OF WANG HAI-JUNG/CODEL CURTIS CONVERSATION
REF: PEKING 2345
1. THERE FOLLOWS NEARLY VERBATIM TRANSTR IPT, CLEARED BY
SENATOR CURTIS, OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN CODEL CURTIS AND
PRC VICE FOREIGN MINISTER WANG HAI-JUNG ON NOVEMBER 13, 4:00
5:40 P.M., AT THE FORMER AMERICAN LEGATION. AMERICANS
PRESENT WERE:
CODEL:
SENATOR CARL CURTIS
SENATOR BIRCH BAYH
SENATOR MILTON YOUNG
SENATOR ERNEST HOLLINGS
SENATOR TED STEVENS
SENATOR BENNETT JOHNSON
MR. ROBERT WOLTHIUS-
MR,. TERRY H OWE
MR. RICHARD HART
USLO:
AMBASSADOR GATES
MR, RICHARD BOCK
PRINCIPAL CHINESE PRESENT, IN ADDITION To VICE FOREIGN MINISTER
WANG WERE:
TANG WEN-SHENG, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, 'AMERICAN AND OCEANIAN
DEPARTMENT, MFA
KO PO-NIEN, VICE PRESIDENT, CHINESE PEOPLE'S INSTITUTE OF
FOREIGN AFFAIRS (CPIFA)
KANG TAI-SHA, DEPUTY SECRETARY-GENERAL, CPIFA.
2. WANG: I Age e6~6FRika :ZM2M8l21WR 8315O0p1LORRO RQt RO R'IENDS
C 0 N F I D E N T I A L
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MESSAGE
T 386157 EIA820
PAGE 02 NC 56754
TOR :17 045BE NOV 76
ON BEHALF OF MY COLLEAGUES AND TO THANK THEM FOR COMING SO FAR
TO VISIT OUR COUNTRY.
CURTIS: I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION FOR THE
OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT YOUR COUNTRY. WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF YOUR
COUNTRYSIDE AND INDUSTRY AND THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU ARE
DEVELOPING YOUR ECONOMY, I ALSO WISH TO EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION
FOR YOUR HOSPITALITY
WANG: YOU ARE OUR FRIENDS AND WHEN YOU COME OVER TO LOOK AT OUR
COUNTRY IT HELPS PROMOTE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN US,
CURTIS: WE VALUE THAT FRIENDSHIP. OUR PEOPLE: HAVE A WARM FEELING
FOR THE CHINESE PEOPLE. WE ARE HAPPY TO BRING YOU THE GREETINGS
FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITFD STATES,,
WANG : THANK YOU, IT IS OUR Q.OMMON DESIRE TO DEVELOP FRIENDSHIP
BETWEEN THE CHINESE AND AMERICAN PEEOPLE:S.
CURRtTIS: I THINK THAT IS A MUTUAL DESIRE. WE WERE DELIGHTED
WITH YOUR INVITATION TO COME: VISIT YOU. WE HAVE SIX SENATORS
AND THEIR WIVES, THREE FROM EACH PARTY. THE THREE DEMOCRATIC
SENATORS ARE VERY INFLUENTIAL WITHIN THAT PARTY AND CLOSE TO
PRESIDENT-ELECT CARTER. F WE ARTR HERE KNOWOMORETABOUTWY UR ECONOMYHANDBTO MEETEWITHAYOU ANDUR
COUNNTRY, TO
OTHER LEADERS O F YOUR COUNTRY.
WANG: WELL, HOW SHALL WE PROCEED THIS AFTERNOON?
CURTIS! WE ARE YOUR GUESTS. WHATEVER YOU WISH. WE WILL BE GLAD TO
HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY.
WANG! IN THAT CASE, WE WELCOME OUR FRIENDS WHO HAVE TRAVELLED SO
FAR TO TAKE THE FLOOR FIRST AND TO EXPRESS YOUR VIEWS ON THE
INTERNATIONAL SITUATION,
CURTIS' WE FEEL VERY STRONGLY OBLIGATED ON OUR PART FOR THE U.S. TO
REMAIN A VERY STRONG POWER. THIS IS NOT ONLY IN OUR INTERESTS BUT
ALSO THAT OF OUR FRIENDS, THERE. ARE THOSE WHO HAVE GREAT
AMBITIONS AND WE HOPE TO MAKE OUR CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD PEACE
BY REMAINING THE NUMBER ONE MILITARY PO'WER,, WE FEEL THAT ONE OF THE
BIG FACTORS IN WORLD POLITICS AT PRESENT IS THE SUPPLY OF OIL.
IT HAS SHIFTED SOME OF THE POWER. WE ARE PLEASED TO KNOW THAT YOUR
OIL PRODUCTION IS INCREASING AND WOULD APPRECIATE KNOWING SOMETHING
ABOUT THIS. UNDER OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, WE, AS MEMBERS OF
THE U.S. SENATE, ARE NOT EMPOWERED TO CARRY OUT OR ADMINISTER
SPONSIBILITY OF THE PRESIDENT AND
R
T
HE
E
FOREIGN AFFAIRS. THAT IS
HIS SECRETARY OF STATE. COONSEQUENILYY,EWHILEICERTAIN POLICIES MUST BE
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 ABLE SEC DASS#M BY__AP_Proved Or P.We
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T 386157 EIA820 PAGE 03-fs NC 56754
TOR:1704582 NOV 76
APPROVED BY CONGRESS, WE ARE WITHOUT POWER TO NEGOTIATE WITH
FOREIGN COUNTRIES, MAKE PROPOSALS? OR REACT TO THEM. BUT, IN THE
END, WHAT OUR PRESIDENT PROPOSES OR WHAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE
CARRIES OUT, WE ARE OF COURSE INTERESTED IN. WE WOULD LIKE TO
CARRY BACK WITH US SOME OF YOUR IDEAS AND EXPECTATIONS WITH
REGARD TO MATTERS OF COMMON INTEREST. WE WOULD BE MOST PLEASED
TO HEAR FROM YOU YOUR VIEWS CONCERNING THE CONDUCT AND FUTURE
PLANS OF THE SOVIETS.
WANG: WELL, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR US TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE
CONDUCT AND FUTURE PLANS OF THE SOVIETS. MAYBE THIS QUESTION CAN
BEST BE ANSWERED BY THE CONCRETE ACTIVITIES AND CONDUCT OF THE
SOVIETS IN DAYS TO COME. WHAT THE SOVIET UNION SAYS IS ACTUALLY
UNBELIEVABLE AND IS MEANT TO DECEIVE PEOPLE. THEY TALK OF SHAM
THINGS. THIS CONCLUSION IS DRAWN FROM THE CONDUCT AND ACTIVITIES
OF THE SOVIET UNION.
CURTIS: I CAN SHARE YOUR OPINION. I HAVE GREAT DOUBTS OF MANY
THINGS THEY SAY. I REGARD THEM AS ADVENTURERS .AND A POTENTIAL
THREAT. PERHAPS IT WOULD BE BETTER PUT TO ASK WHAT SHOULD BE OUR
COURSE OF ACTION WITH REGARD TO THE SOVIET UNION.
WANG: WHAT COURSE THE U.S. WILL TAKE IS A MATTER FOR THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT. THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S ATTITUDE IS TO EXPOSE THEIR
SCHEMES, CRITICIZING AND REPUDIATING THEIR SCHEMES, AND EXPOSING
THEIR DECEPTIONS AND FALLACIES AND ADOPTING A TIT-FOR-TAT STRUGGLE
AGAINST THEM. IN DEALING WITH SOVIET SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM, CHINA AND
THE U.S.. HAVE A VERY GREAT POINT IN COMMON. OUR DIFFERENCE OF
PRINCIPLE WITH THE SOVIET UNION MUST CONTINUE TO BE CARRIED OUT.
BUT THE DEBATE ON PRINCIPLES NEED NOT HINDER AND OBSTRUCT STATE
RELATIONS. BUT WE HOLD THAT THE SOVIET SOCIAL-IMPERIALISTS HAVE
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TORS 17?1500 NOV 76
0 R 1700302 NOV 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6796
INFO RUMJDH/AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4022
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW
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RU EH TP /AMEMBASSY TAIPEI
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C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 2 OF 4 PEKING 23 70
EXDIS
FUNDAMENTALLY BETRAYED THE PRINCIPLES OF MARX AND LENIN AND THEIR
IMPERIALISTIC NATURE WILL NEVER CHA'IGE+
CURTIS: DO YOU FEEL THE SOVIETS ARE A THREAT TO YOUR BORDER?
WANG S PEOPLE- SAY THEY HAVE DEPLOYED ONE MILLION TROOPS ALONG THE
BORDER. ONE MILLION TROOPS ALONG A BORDERLINE OF MORE THAN 7,000
KILOMETERS, WHAT USE IS IT TO STATION SO MANY TROOPS ON SUCH A
LONG BORDERLINE? I F THEY DARE TO MOUNT AN INVASION AGAINST US,
JIM SURE THEY WILL BE ANNIHILATED IN THE GREAT SEA OF A PEOPLE'S
WAR, OUR POLICY IS: "WE WILL NOT ATTACK UNLESS WE ARE ATTACKED.
IF ATTACKED WE WILL CERTAINLY COUNTER-ATTACK." WE HAVE NO FEAR OF
THEM, THE SOVIET THREAT IS MAINLY DIRECTED AGAINST THE U.S.
CURT IS: WHY DO THEY THREATEN THE U.S.?
WANG., BECAUSE THEY WANT TO STRIVE FOR WORLD HEGEMONY. YOU HAVE
INTERESTS IN THE WORLD TO DEFEND 'AND THE SOVIET UNION SEEKS TO
EXPAND. IN OUR VIEW, SUCH A SITUATION WILL NEVER CHANGE.
CURT IS S I AGREE THAT THEY ARE A SERIOUS ADVERSARY AND I AM
INTERESTED IN YOUR VIEWS REGARDING THEM.
WANG: SUPERFICIALLY, SOVIET SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM APPEARS WILDLY
AMBITIOUS, BUT ACTUALLY THEY ARE VERY WEAK, THE IMPERIALISTIC NATURE
OF THEIR POLICIES CAUSES THEM TO CARRY OUT AGGRESSION, EXPANSION,
AND TO BULLY OTHER COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD. BUT ESSENTIALLY
THEY ARE WEAK, ALTHOUGH WILDLY AMBITIOUS, IF' THEY CONTINUE
TO SEEK WORLD HEGEMONY s THEY LACK THE PHYSICAL STRENGTH AND THEY
ARE MOST UNPOPULAR AMONG THE PEOPLE: OF THE KORLD,
CU RT I S : WHAT I S THE BASIS OF THEIR WEAKNESS?
WANG I THEY ARE CARRYING OUT FASCIST RULE: I N THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
INTERNATIONALLY THEY WANT TO ENSLAVE THE PEOPLES OF OTHER
COUNTRIES, THE IRREGULAR DEVELOPMENT OF INDUSTRY IN THEIR COUNTRY,
THE BAD HARVESTS ARE ALL PART OF THIS. WE LOOK UPON THEM AS
PAPER TIGERS AND PAPER TIGERS ARE ALWAYS WEAK. THEIR WEAKNESS IS
C O N F I D E N T I A L
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DECIDED BY THE NATURE OF SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
C'URTISa MY INDIVIDUAL OPINION IS THAT THEY ARE IMPERIALISTS,
PERMIT NO FREEDOM TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE, AND HAVE AMBITIONS TO
DOMINATE I N THE WORLD, D O YOU BELIEVE THE SOVIETS ARE ANXIOUS TO
TAKE MORE TERRITORY?
WANG $ THEY ARE SEEKING HEGEMONY.
CURT IS 3 SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SOVIETS r ACTIVITIES
TOWARDS WESTERN EUROPE?
WANG: YES, WE SHOULD, (WANG APPARENTLY MISUNDERSTOOD QUESTION
AS BEING DIRECTED AT CHINESE ATTITUDES. SHE WAS CORRECTED BY
NANCY TANG.)
CURT IS DO YOU FAVOR THE U.S. POLICY OF STRENGTHENING NATO AND FULL
SUPPORT OF NATO?
WANG: THIS IS AN AFFAIR OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, ON,OUR PART, WE ENDORSE
THAT THE US AND WESTERN EUROPE SHOULD ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP OF
PARTNERSHIP AND EQUALITY; WE ALSO ENDORSE AND HOPE THAT EUROPE
BECOMES UNITED AND STRONG, TODAY THERE ARE MANY COUNTRIES IN
EUROPE AND THEY SEEM TO BE DIVIDED AND TOO SOFT. WE ENDORSE YOUR
EFFORTS TO IMPROVE RELATIONS WITH EUROPE.
CURTIS. OUR DELEGATION WHICH IS HERE AT YOUR GRACIOUS INVITATION
IS A BIPARTISAN ONE AND THE VICE CHAIRMAN IS THE DISTINGUISHED
SENATOR FROM INDIANA P BIRCH BAYH. I WOULD LIKE T O YIELD TO HIM.
WANG: WELCOME,
BAYHI MADAME VICE FOREIGN MINISTER, I ALSO APPRECIATE YOUR
HOSPITALITY AND DON'T WISH TO IMPOSE TO A GREAT EXTENT. FOR
MOST OF US, THIS I S OUR FIRST VISIT TO CHINA. SENATOR STEVENS OF
ALASKA SERVED HERE DURING OUR COMMON EFFORT AGAIST THE JAPANESE AND
MY FATHER WAS IN KUNMING, WE HAVE HEARD WARM REPORTS OF THE
CHINESE PEOPLE BUT THIS 1S OUR FIRST EXPOSURE. I MAKE THESE REMARKS
SO THAT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT MY COMMENTS ON BASED ON A LACK OF
FAMILIARITY AND NOT DESIGNED TO BE OFFENSIVE, BOTH OF OUR COUNTRIES
HAVE GONE THROUGH DRAMATIC TIMES IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. WE SHARE
YOUR GRIEF AT THE LOSS OF YOUR GREAT CHAIRMAN MAO TSE-TONG. I
WOULD LIKE TO CONVEY OUR SYMPATHY AT HIS PASSING,
IN THE SAME PERIOD, YOU HAVE A NEW CHAIRMAN, MR. HUA. YOU HAVE
ALSO HAD A NATURAL DISASTER AND HAVE DISPLAYED A MARVELOUS ABILITY
TO BOUNCE BACK, AT THE SAME TIME OUR COUNTRY HAS TRIED TO STRENGTHEN
OURSELVES ECONOMICALLY AND WE
HAVE HAD THE QUADRENNIAL EXERCISE OF POLITICAL ELECTIONS. THESE
THINGS ARE NOW BEHIND US FOR NBO~TH THE US TANDt CHINA, NOW TO THE
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011
,? C:7
NC 5675
f--38,61 59 El A621 PAGE:
TOR1170500E NOV' 76
FUTURE, I APOLOGIZE FOR SPEAKING S O LONG- WE HERE OF COURSE WISH
TO SUSTAIN THE INITIATIVE TAKEN BY CHAIRMAN MAO, FORMER PRESIDENT
WARD
NI XON, PREMIER CHOU, AND SECRETARY K ISSI NGERF~AT TRYYTO MOVE TOWA
NORMAL RELATIONS, NOW WE HAVE NEW LEADERS,
RELATIONSHIP UNDER CHAIRMAN HUA AS OPPOSED TO THAT UNDER CHAIRMAN
MAD? WE READ OF THE GANG 5_F_.EZUB_--HAVING E3 EEN_ 0PL'0S_ED TO THIS
, T t ON q4 J P S T A RT EIl-B Y_ D--AN 1) H 0 -I--~C IS WE-~ A_N A L PEAK
WITH SOME AUTHORITY THAT OUR NEW PRESIDENT IS DETERMINED TO MOVE
TOWARD NORMALIZATION UNDER THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SHANGHAI
COMMUNIQUE, WE CANNOT BE CERTAIN OF YOUR ATTITUDE, COULD YOU
ENLIGHTEN US, PLEASE?
WANG1 IT IS TRUE `THAT HIS YEAR CHOU EN-LAI, CHAIRMAN CHU TEH OF
THE NATIONAL PEOPLE'S CONGRESS AND CHAIRMAN 'MAO ALL PASSED AWAY
UNFORTUNATELY, THE CHINESE PEOPLE: WERE DEEPLY GRIEVED IN
PARTICULAR WITH THE PASSING AWAY OF OUR GREAT LEADER, CHAIRMAN
MAO. BUT I+M SURE YOU WILL BE ABLE TO WITNESS FROM OUR
NEWSPAPERS THAT THE CHINESE PEOPLE ARE HEEDING THE CALL BY THE
CENTRAL COMMITTEE HEADED BY CHAIRMAN HUA TO TURN GRIEF INTO
STRENGTH, THEY ARE ALSO DETERMINED T O CARRY ON THE BEHEST OF
CHAIRMAN MAO AND RESOLUTELY IMPLEMENT THE POLICIES AND LINE FORMU-
LATED BY CHAIRMAN MAO, AND TO CARRY THROUGH TO THE END THE REVOLU-
TIONARY CAUSE PIONEERED BY HIM, CHAIRMAN HUA. WAS PERSONALLY
SELECTED BY CHAIRMAN MAO BEFORE HE DIED TO BE HIS SUCCESSOR 70
THE REVOLUTIONARY CAUSE. CHAIRMAN HUA HAS BEEN LOYAL TO MARX-
LENINISM-MAO TSE-TUNG THOUGHT, MAYBE YOU HAVE ALSO HEARD OF
THE WORDS OF CHAIRMAN CMAO NARGEENI~M ~TSEASE~" YOU GANKSEETCHAIRMANAN
HUA THAT "WITH YOU IN
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T 386164 EIA826 PAGE"' NC 567
TOR:i70504Z NOV 76
0 R 1700 30 Z NOV 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6797
INFO RUMJDH/AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4023
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW 512
RUEHTP/AMEMBASSY TAIPEI 883
RUEHKO/AMEMBASSY TOKYO 1767
BT
C 0 N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 3 OF 4 PEKING 2370
EXDIS
HUA IS RESOLUTELY CARRYING OUT AND IMPLEMENTING THE POLICIES
FORMULATED BY CHAIRMAN MAO. WITH CHAIRMAN MAO AT EASE; THE
8009000;000 CHINESE PEOPLE ARE EVEN MORE AT EASE BECAUSE THE
SUCCESSOR OF THE REVOLUTIONARY CAUSE WAS SELECTED AND
ARRANGED BY CHAIRMAN MAO WHILE HE WAS ALIVE. AS TO THE`GANG OF
FOUR, YOU'VE HEARD OF THEM -- WANG HUNG-WEN, CHANG CHUN-CHIAO,
.CHIANG CHING, YAO WEN-YUAN -- THEY CONSTITUTE A TVI#
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MOSED HIS THOUGHT,
AND FRANTICALLY OPPOSED THE POLICIES AND LINE FORMULATED FOR US
PERSONALLY BY CHAIRMAN MAO. THEY ENGAGED IN SCHEMING ACTIVITIES A
AND PLOTTED TO USURP PARTY AND STATE POWER. WHEN CHAIRMAN MAO WAS
STILL ALIVE, H E CRITICIZED THEM FOR A NUMBER O F YEARS, TRIED T O
EDUCATE THEM WHEN HE SAW THEN ENGAGING IN REVISIONISM, SPLITTISM,
AND SCHEMING. BECAUSE CHAIRMAN MAO DISCOVERED THIS SCHEME
~~M~L~.F.SkI.ON AND ACTED AND EXPOSED THEM THEY WERE UNAB gTO
SUCCEED WHILE CHAIRMAN MAO WAS ALIVE. WHEN CHATRMAN MAO PASSED
AWAY, THEY AGAIN ENGAGED IN FRENZIED OPPOSITION TO CHAIRMAN HUA,
WHO HAD BEEN SELECTED AS SUCCESSOR TO THE REVOLUTIONARY CAUSE
BY CHAIRMAN MAO WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. THEY PLOTTED TO USURP THE
SUPREME PARTY AND STATE POWER. WHY WERE THEY SO FRENZIEDLY OPPOSED
TO CHAIRMAN HUA? JUST BECAUSE CHAIRMAN HUA RESOLUTELY INHERITED
THE BEHEST OF CHAIRMAN MAO, RESOLUTELY CARRIED OUV- THE POLICIES
AND LINE OF CHAIRMAN MAO, AND REMAINS INFINITELY LOYAL TO HIS
THOUGHT, CHAIRMAN HUA HAD BEEN WAGING A RESOLUTE STRUGGLE
AGAINST THEIR SCHEMING ACTIVITIES. ORIGINALLY, CHAIRMAN MAO WANTED
TO SETTLE THE QUESTION OF THE GANG OF FOUR WHILE HE WAS
C O N F I D E N T I A L
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NC 5675
TOR:17Z504ix_ NOV 76
ALIVE BUT UNFORTUNATELY B5FORE___HE_CO.1JD DO SO, HE PASSED AWAY.
CHAIRMAN HUA BROUGHT ABOUT THE SOLUTION O HIS ISSUE WHICH CHAIR-A,y~n,~'G .K,
MAN XU4_WISHED TO BUT WAS UNAB TO BECAUSE OF HIS DEATH. CHAIRMAN Poa_ -ce.z
H3 WITH ONE_ _STRD.Ji SMASHED E PLOT OF THE GANG OF FOUR TO USURP y,~v arse.
PARTY AND STATE POWER. IN THIS WAY. UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE
CENTRAL COMMITTEE HEADED BY CHAIRMAN HUA, WE ARE EVEN MORE DETER-
MINED TO CARRY OUT THE LINE AND POLICIES OF CHAIRMAN MAO.
BAYH: DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU WILL. CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES
OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE TO.MOVE TOWARDS NORMALIEAT'ION?
WANG: OF COURSE, THE LINES AND POLICIES FbRMULATED BY CHAIRMAN MAO
ALSO INCLUDE FOREIGN PO].ICY AND UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CENTRAL
COMMITTEE HEADED BY CHAIRMAN HUA. WE WILL RESOLUTELY IMPLEMENT
SUCH LINES AND POLICIES. ON THE QUESTION OF NORMALIZATION BETWEEN
OUR-TWO COUNTRIES, AS I HAVE OFTEN
STATED TO AMERICAN FRIENDS AND MR. GATES OF THE LIAISON OFFICE
UNDERSTANDS WELL, IF BOTH PARTIES ADHERE TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE
SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE RELATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA CAN BE
IMPROVED. THIS WAS STATED BY PREMIER CHOU IN HIS REPORT TO THE
FOURTH NPC. ON THE QUESTION OF NORMALIZATION BETWEEN OUR TWO
COUNTRIES, WE-HAVE THREE PRINCIPLES WHICH WE HAVE TIME AND AGAIN
STATED, I AM SURE YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH'THEM BUT I WOULD LIKE TO
CLEARLY STATE THEM FOR YOU. THE THREE PRINCIPLES ARE: SEVER
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S. AND TAIWAN; WITHDRAWAL OF-
AMERICAN TROOPS FROM TAIWAN, AND ABROGATION OF THE SO-CALLED
DEFENSE TREATY WITH TAIWAN. THESE ARE INSEPARABLE AND INDISPEN-
SABLE. THERE CAN BE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE. ON THE QUESTION OF TAIWAN,
WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SO-CALLED PEACEFUL-TRANSITION. CHAIRMAN
TAUGHT US "WHERE THE BROOM DOESN'T REACH, DUST WILL NOT RUN AWAY
BY ITSELF." IN TAIWAN, THERE IS STILL A BUNCH OF COUNTER-REVO-
LUTIONARIES. OUR$_TAND ON TAIWAN IS THAT WE BASE OURSELVES ON
_-A_.F00.I_IN G TO FIG HT. AS TO WHEN WE WILL LIBERATE TAIWAN AND THE
METHODS WE_WILL ADOPT TO LIBERATE TAIWAN, THIS IS PURELY AN
INTERNAL MATTER FOR CHINA AND NO OTHER NATION HAS,THE RIGHT TO
INTERFERE WHATSOEVER, SINCE YOU RAISED THIS ISSUE, I HAVE STATED
OUR CONSISTENT STAND VERY CANDIDLY.
BAYH: I APPRECIATE YOUR CANDOR? OUR NATION REMAINS COMMITTED TO
THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE ALTHOUGH WE REALISE THERE MIGHT BE
SOME DIFFICULTIES, BUT WE ARE DEDICATED TO THIS PURPOSE AND
OUR DISTINGUISHED REPRESENTATIVE AMBASSADOR GATES HAS STRESSED TO
US THE THREE PRINCIPLES WITH THE VICE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS
C 0 N F I D E N T I A L
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TOR:1-70504E NOV 76
MENTIONED. ONE LAST THING--
AFTER TALKING WITH OUTSTANDING LEADERS LIKE YOURSELF, AND
MEETING WITH OUR HOSTS WHO ARE. OUTSTANDING AMBASSADORS OF GOOD-
WILL, I AM CONVINCED THAT OUR TWO NATIONS HAVE SO MUCH TO OFFER
TO EACH OTHER AND TO THE WORLD. I AM CERTAIN THAT IF OUR TWO
NATIONS ARE INTERESTED IN SOLVING THESE QUESTIONS, WE CAN FIND A
METHOD TO RESOLVE OUR DIFFERENCES.
WANG: BETWEEN FRIENDS, WE CAN HAVE A CANDID EXCHANGE OF
VIEWS. BETWEEN CHINA AND THE U.S. THERE ARE MANY COMMON POINTS ON
MANY ISSUES. THE BIG ISSUE IS THE INTERNATIONAL ONE, TAIWAN IS A
MINOR ISSUE. A` _QNG._T-E_ ANYCOMMON
TN S_WE SHARE, THE MOST IMPORTANT IS TO DEAL IN COMMON WITH
OUR NORTHERN SOCALLED ALL-Y._.
BAYHI WE NAVE A SAYING.. THAT WITH FRIENDS LIKE THAT WE DON'T
NEED ENEMIES.
CURT IS: WE DO HAVE SOMETHING VERY MUCH IN COMMON -- THE PROTECTION
OF THINGS WE HOLD DEAR AGAINST THE SOVIETS, JUST AS YOU HAVE. THE
FACT THAT YOU EXTENDED AN INVITATION TO US AND THAT WE WERE ABLE
TO ACCEPT IT HAS LED TO BETTER UNDERSTANDING. I COMMEND YOU ON
INVITING US TO VISIT HERE. WE ALSO COMMEND YOU ON YOUR STATEMENT
THAT THE LARGE PICTURE IS WORLD AFFAIRS, AND THE WELFARE OF YOUR
GREAT COUNTRY AND OUR COUNTRY WITH RESPECT TO THE SOVIET UNION.
WE ALSO FEEL THAT WAY, WE ARE PLEASED TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT THE
PROBLEM OF TAIWAN IS SECONDARY TO THESE WORLD PROBLEMS. TAIWAN IS
- - .pR_lLS AS WELL AND WF HOPE THAT FVENTUAi~LYTHE L__3 E
A P1P A EF
WANG (SMILING BROADLY); I ALREADY STATED THAT WE DON'T BELIEVE IN
PEACEFUL TRANSITION AN AYS BEEN OUR CONSISTENT TANK,
C YOU MUST REALISE THAT WHEN A IOII SUt OURS FOLLOW
A COURSE OF CONDUCT FOR DECADES, IT IS DIFFICULT TO CHANGE. JUST
AS YOU HAVE PROBLEMS, WE HAVE PROBLEMS.
9A YH1 TIME IS ALL TOO SHORT AND ESPECIALLY I'VE ALREADY HAD SOME
TIME TO SPEAK. THIS FIRST VISIT TO CHINA HAS BEEN AN EYE-OPENER.
AS MUCH AS I HAD RESPECTED YOUR COUNTRY AND YOUR PEOPLE, I NOW
RESPECT THEM EVEN MORE. I AM CONVINCED THAT IT IS POSSIBLE FOR
MORE CHINESE TO COME TO THE U.S. I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A SLIGHT
SUGGESTION. I AM CONVINCED IT CAN RESOLVE SOME PROBLEMS.
RELATIONS COULD BE MORE SUPPORTIVE THROUGH BROADER EXCHANGE
PROGRAMS, MORE TRADE, AND OTHER WAYS OF GETTING TO KNOW ONE ANOTHER
BETTER. WE'VE HAD THIS OPPORTUNITY BUT THERE ARE ONLY SIX OF US.
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TOR:170504Z NOV 76
IF THERE WERE 600 YOU WOULD HAVE 600 MISSIONARIES GOING BACK.
STATE
C 0 N F I D E N A L
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0 R 1700302 NOV 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6798
INFO RUMJDH/AMCONSUL HONG KONG 4024
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY
MOSCOW
513
RUEHTP/AMEMBASSY
TAIPEI
884
RUEHKO/AMEMBASSY
BT
TOKYO
1768
E MESSAGE
C 0 N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 4 OF 4 PEKING 2,370
EXDIS
WANG: SINCE THE DOORS BETWEEN CHINA AND THE US WERE OPENED BY
YO UR FORMER PRESIDENT NIXON. AND BY CHAIRMAN MAO, AND AF' TER THE
ISSUANCE OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE. THERE HAVE BEEN QUITE A FEW
EXCHANGES BETWEEN CHINA AND THE U.S.
CURT IS: YOU HAVE BEEN A MOST GRACIOUS HOSTESS. BEFORE WE END, I
WONDER IF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.
YOUNG. WE DEEPLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME TO KNOW YOU
BETTER, WE WILL KNOW YOU MORE IN THE FUTURE. THE U.S. IS SPREAD
THINLY OVER THE WORLD BUT WE ARE BOUND NOT BECOME SECOND TO THE
SOVIET UNION- STILL, THERE ARE PROBLEMS -- THE PHILIPPINES WANT US
TO REMOVE OUR BASES. WE HAVE PROBLEMS ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THAT'S
WHY WE NEED FRIENDS LIKE YOU.
HOLLINGS: I TOO AM VERY GRATEFUL FOR YOUR HOSPITALITY AND AS
SENATOR BAYH HAS POINTED OUT, THIS VISIT HAS BEEN AN EYE OPENER.
CHINA HAS A BIG PART OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION AND THE U.S.
AND CHINA SHOULD,BE WORKING TOGETHER FOR PEACE IN THE FUTURE.
I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET
YOU THIS AFTERNOONS
STEVENS: I THANK YOU TOO. THIS HAS BEEN A VERY ENJOYABLE TIME AND
IT IS MOST MEMORABLE FOR ME TO COME BACK AGAIN. I WOULD LIKE AT
SOME TIME TO EXPLORE WHY WE CANNOT HAVE SOME OF THE STEPS THAT LEAD
TOWARDS NORMALIZATION PRIOR TO THE REALIZATION OF THE PRINCIPLES
YOU HAVE MENTIONED, SUCH AS AIR ROUTES, EXPANSION OF EXCHANGES.
I_ THINK, AND IT MAY BE IMPORTANT, SOMETIMES I'M NOT SURE YOU ARE
FULLY COGNIZANT OF THE DIFFICULTIES WE FACE, AND INCREASED
EXCHANGES WOULD HELP YOU BECOME 'AWARE OF THESE PROBLEMS.
JOHNSTON: MADAME VICE FOREIGN MINISTER, I WOULD LIKE TO ADD MY
GRATITUDE TO THAT OF MY COLLEAGUES. ONE QUESTION OF SUBSTANCE IS
RELATED TO KOREA. IN THE COMING SESSION OF CONGRESS IN JANUARY,
SOME COLLEAGUES WILL BE CALLING FOR THE WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS
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STATE MESSAGE
51
THERE, MAY WE REPORT TO OUR COLLEAGUES THAT THE RETENTION OF TROOPS
AND THE TREATY WITH KOREA WILL. NOT BE A MAJOR STUMBLING BLOCK IN
IMPLEMENTING THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE OR A BLOCK TO THE IMPROVEMENT
OF OUR RELATIONS?
WANG: O N KOREA, OUR STAND IS CONSISTENT. WE SUPPORT THE 1 a ~~
STAND OF THE DPRK ON I NDEP E_r ~DEN7 AND F; ~EUL, REUNIFICATION OF
KOREA AND THAT ALL US TROOPS SHOULD WITHDRAWN AND THE UNC
DISBANDED, THE ISSUE OF KOREA
SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE KOREAN PEOPLE THEMSELVES TO SETTLE,
THIS HAS BEEN OUR PRINCIPLED STAND.
CURTIS: AMBASSADOR GATES, DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY?
GATES: WE'RE OLD FRIENDS.
WANG: I WELCOMEYOUR COMING HERE AND THE EXCHANG'E OF VIEWS. THEY
WILL HELP PROMOTE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN US.
CURTIS: WE BELIEVE MUCH AS BEEN GAINED. YOU ARE A CHARMING
HOSTESS.
WANG: OUR EXCHANGE OF VIEWS AND DISCUSSION WILL HELP UNDERSTANDING
BUT WHEN YOU LEAVE PEKING AND VISIT OTHER PARTS OF OUR COUNTRY
YOU WILL UNDERSTAND MORE WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR COUNT TRY. YOU CAN
WITNESS FOR YOURSELF HOW THE PEOPLE BRING THEIR INITIATIVE INTO
FULL PLAY AND RELY ON THEIR OWN EFFORTS TO BRING ABOUT SOCIAL-
IST REVOLUTION AND CONSTRUCTION OF OUR COUNTRY.
CURTIS: WE HAVE ALREADY WITNESSED SOME: OF THAT. BEFORE WE DEPART,
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT FORMER PRESIDENT NIXON ASKED ME TO EXTEND
HIS WARMEST GREETINGS,
WANG: I WILL CONVEY THAT TO OUR LEADERS. THANK YOU FOR COMING
TO VISIT US.
(AFTER THE SESSION HAD ENDED. WANG CAME UP TO SENATOR CURTIS TO
SAY THAT THE CONVERSATION HAD BEEN FRANK AND WAS NOT FOR
PUBLICATION.)
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19 November 1976
National Intelligence Officers
STATINTL FROM:
Sorry I didn't get these to you sooner.
The top two USLO cables are summaries of
talks that the Curtis Delegation had with
Li Hsien-nien and Wang Hai-jung. I've also
added the full text of each meeting.
Senator Bayh posed the questions on the
Chinese economy to Li at my suggestion. Most
analysts here and at State consider the Chine
not giving anything away but they are general
d
following the more moderate tone reflecte
in talks with Schlesinger and Mansfield.
Attachment:
4 Cables
00130009-3
STATINTL
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