MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: Library of Congress
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): LOC-HAK-534-17-1-9
• Release Decision: RIFLIM
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 13
• Document Creation Date: January 11, 2017
• Document Release Date: August 11, 2010
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: August 27, 1973
• Content Type: MEMO

THE WHITE HOUSE.
WASHINGTON
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PARTICIPANTS:
DATE & TIME:
PLACE:
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
State, OSD, JCS reviews
completed
and Eliot yesterday.
Henry A. Kissinger
Kenneth Rush, Deputy,$ecretary of State
Lawrence S. Eaglebr,ar6tetakerj
August 27, x1973; 8:15 a, m.
0
The Western White House
Dr. Kissinger: I bad a good session with your associates, Pickering
on as Secretary, I'd begun to try to reorganize the Department. I was
not happy, for example, with relations between the. Planning and Coordina-
tion Staff and the Secretary. There were second-rate people in there and
they were failing in their coordination role. I wanted a tough man to
head it a man who would reorient the operation. I selected Jim Sutterlin.
He's a very good man. I picked both Tom Pickering and Jim Sutterlirs.
Secretary Rush: So I understand. Before I heard that you were coming
right. Your switch should make it possible.
Secreta Rush It will be far better for government if things work out
.rti ming the interdepartmental process.
bothered to call up and congratulate me. State's their natural enemy in
Dr. Kissin er: As you know, I wasn't sure that I was going to take this
job. Before the. Watergate mess, I had planned to leave. I planned to
leave by the end of the year. Now this switch could mean that before it's
over I'll lose some power. You know only Schlesinger and Moores haven't
the Department exciting, help overcome our domestic problems by
Dr. Kissinger: The reason I took the job was to try to institutionalize
what we've been doing.. I wanted to bring along the professionals, amake
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experience. It must be as unifying as possible; that depends to some
degree on Rogers. I thought his remarks on the wiretapping were
unnecessary. You know it will hurt the President if the real truth
?comes out.
moving on the foreign side. Thus the transition must be a unifying
Secretary Rush: The Sullivan reply was best. He said he had assumed
all along that he was tapped.
Der,. Kissinger: Can we keep the Departmen
s comments unde
Secretary Rush: I can't keep Bill under restraint; the others, yes.
Dr. Kissinger. OK, first off, I want to give a dinner for Rogers. I want
you, ,the widows of former Secretaries of State, Senior FSO's. It's in
our interest to make this transition as non-contentious as possible. By
the way, I'm sorry about the Alsop column. I haven't talked to him;
'I don't know who has.
Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. I wanted you to
know how I intend to approach the process. I have. ideas, but I want
yours. I want the payoff to be that we leave the Department in the best
shape it's ever been in. When I came here the staff was bitching for about
the first six months, but now they're pretty satisfied.
intend to bargain .about what they are going to be doing; they'll, take it
whether they like it or not. The attitude ought to be that they will be
Secretary RRsh: Let me give you a little background.. You know in the
State Department, in the Foreign Service, reassignment is a matter of
policy; therefore there should be no problem in moving people about.
Dr. Kissinger: That's right, the Foreign Set-vice is a service. I don't
concept of what is. important is that you get to be an Ambassador; that's
Secretary Rush: That's true. You know in the Foreign Service the
measured.by the contribution they can make.
the ultimate ambition.
become one of my closest associates and a distinguished public servant.
.for maple,, was a child when he came to work for me. But now he's
underqualified for the job. If he's good, it stretches him. Winston Lord,
career. I always think that you should pick somebody who's slightly
Dr. Kissiner;. I have little sympathy for those who cry about their
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my confirmation,. but we can talk in general, particularly about senior
people. I'm calling some back, you know, but that's largely for eyewash.
Incidentally, you and I will be partners, everything I know you will know..
:Just as when Haig worked for me, he knew everything I knew; now
Scvwcroft knows everything. So will you. We will then have to decide
on who else ought to know. One leak and I'm moving things back to the
White House. You and I and the Executive Secretary should know every
I don't believe we should discuss the details of personnel until after
thing. We'll-decide who else should know.
Secretary Rush: I see no basic problem with that.
crop, haven't leaked. I've worked with a number of FSO's quite directly
Dr. Kissmger: The FSO's on my staff, though not the cream of the
like Sullivan and Porter; they haven't leaked.
Secretary Rush: Henry, to some degree it's in the nature of things.
Reporters are trained to put pieces together.
Dr. Kissinger I want to shut down the practice of having reporters
wander the halls. We've got to get a situation in which the FSO's don't
want to show off so much.
Secretary Rush. Part of it is frustration; that's part of the cause of the
leaks.
Secretary Rush: I'll talk to Bray today. I don't think there's any serious
Dr. Kissinger:. Has the Bray thing multiplied?
for, but I'm not vindictive.
put the best people in the right job; I may be a pain in the neck to work
Dr. Kissinger: I don't want him to continue in his present job. I don't
think he's good for that job,. but he does have good qualities. I want to
or steam in the Department. I'll be frank with you about your plans and
Secretary. Rush: If we work properly together we can build up a real head
activities.
will rely upon you to manage the Department once you and I know what
Dr. Kissinger : That's what I want. You and I will meet every day. I
.I nt. you must tell me ?when you think I'm wrong.
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Secretary Rush: Each of us. must know what the other i
of us must know what the other is thinking.
Dr., Kissinger: I have no secrets from you. The FSO's will want me
to dominate the city. I must lean over backward not to do that. You
should manage the IG papers. I'll have the last crack at them anyway.
Once In a while State must lose.
;~ecrgtary_Rush: There are certain essentials. First, your relationship
with the President.
Dr. Kisser Yes, because of that I expect to spend part of each, day
at the White House.
will be murderous. We may need to develop an adversary position.
Secretary Rush: Yes, now the second point is that you must be Secretary
of State and you must trust the Department. Third, you must be
impartial. in the interdepartmental forum. State has felt downtrodden
in the past. It will try to reassert itself. Now is when we must be
modest. You shouldn't be a gladiator for the State Department.
Dr. Kissinger: Take the Verification Panel. We're going to have a
murderous problem on SALT. Dobrynin and I will finally have to work
out the negotiation, but I can't do it as Secretary of State. The Chiefs
Secretary Rush: Yes, we don't want to get State ideologically cornnii
to any particular course.
well. We can use the NSC system very well for that.
l Kissinger: Some issues I'll turn over to you completely. Others
like SALT, and MBFR I'll take an active interest in, but I'll always want
your active participation and advice. We must make Brant a partner as
I'll want to shape positions more than Bill did.
Secretary Rush: That's right. We've got to let people be heard.
of the impact. on other departments. . Over time you should shift some
mental meetings. There's a problem of your time and there's a problem
Secretary Rush I have trouble seeing you preside at these interdepart-
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need that.
of the committees to the Deputy Secretaries and let other committees
slip to Assistant Secretaries, with Brent chairing. You know that the
real purpose of the committees was to move power to the President.
The Deputies were spokesmen for the Secretaries. Today you don!t
Secretaries, we 111 have an NSC without the President.
Dr. Kissinger: If we move these committees to committees of the
Secretary Rush: No, that's not true. Shultz has an East-West Trade
Committee. I attended a meeting with Dent and Butz. It was a useful
meeting. It will help save you time but it doesn't replace the need
for the President, ti
Dry Kissinger: As an Assistant to the President, I can take issues to
the President.
Secretary Rush: Yes, there's no problem.
Dr. Kissinger: I really ought to have breakfast on Mondays with Colby,
Schlesinger and Moorer.
Secretary Rush: It's not really tolerable for you to want to continue to
chair these meetings. Is it fair to the Secretary of State, particularly
in terms of your time? It's certainly not fair to the Defense Department.
Mr. Eagle aurger: Yes, but if you have meetings with Secretaries. you
may have a head-to-head confrontation. Then you'll have to go to the
President to get it resolved.
Dr. Kissinger:- Of course, but if the President backs,me a few times
it'll be good. If I maintain my position with the President there
shouldn't be any trouble.
Secretary Rushy But if I'm there at these meetings, State will have no
input. I'm not going to argue with the Secretary of State.
Br,, Kissinger: Well, we could change you and put me in your spot and
we could have Schlesinger for Clements.
more as a study committee. Brent could chair the Assistant Secretaries
Secretary,Rusb Yes, and you can use the Under Secretaries Committee
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meetings where they thrash out things. By and large you should have
fewer meetings. Have. more done at a lower level.
Dr., Kissinger: You're right. I want to look at the Policy Planning
Operation. I'm particularly concerned that it's overstaffed.
Secretary Rush: I've talked to Jim Sutterlin about that. I've told.. him
'without getting any blood flowing we must get a smaller staff, get the
academics in. We should move the PARA thing out entirely. Get
things down to one-third or one-half of what they are today.
Dr. Kissinger: Fine. But hold up on restructuring until I get there.
Secretary Rush: I'd like to get the planning and coordination people moving.
Dr. Kaissinger: Well, hold up until. I get there.
Secretary Rush: OK. I don't want you to be the focal point for discontent
as we remove people, however. I've asked Jim Sutherland and Tom
.Pickering to look at the restructuring plans for the planning council and
for SS.
Dr. Kissinger. I don't have vanities over prerogatives. I will, however,
have views on substance.
Secretary Rush: I know you will, Henry. We won't have any problems.
The worst thing that could happen would be for you to leave government.
Dr. Kissinger: Well, I was thinking about it. The President didn't even
raise this move with me until about one week before it happened.
Secretary Rush: In all honesty, it's better than yourstaying here and my
e
b
coming Secretary of State.
Dr. Kissinger: Protocol -- what do we do about that? It ought to be
Secretary Rush: Yes,' he has to be changed. It's a mess now.
RE,. K# singer I want you to go to China. Maybe not: this year, but
'ear. You should see how they handle, protocol. You are enveloped
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in graciousness. But everything has a purpose. For instance, when
we were on the_ plane the protocol girl mentioned to me that Mrs. Bhutto
was in Peking. I told the others on the plane that that meant that the
Chinese wanted me to see her. They said no. Then the Chinese mentioned
it to me several other times. When I finally offered to see Mrs. Bhutto
they were pleased as punch.
Secretary Rush: Our Protocol department is the worst thing in Washington.
Dr, 1Sjssiger: Who would be good? Carter Burton. He has an attractive
wife. That might be a, possibility.
Have you given me a list of ambassadors? By the end of the year we
will have them filled. By the first of November every embassy not now
filled will be.. By January 1, every ambassador who needs to be,changed
will be. If you could go through that list I would appreciate it. You know
them better than I.
By the way, I see that you are going to Africa in October. That may not
be possible because I probably will be in China then.
Sect tart' usb: OK, but let me'know as soon as possible, please. I plan
to travel to each area to see the ambassadors there.
Ar Kissinger: I want to .go to two or three ambassadorial meetings out.
of the country myself. When I go to China I plan to see the Asian ambas-
sadors in Japan. I'll see the European ambassadors before the NATO
meeting. There will be a Pilgrims meeting in October. Maybe I could
go then. But I have no occasion to see the Africans. You should` do that.
My most probable dates for the China trip are between the 20th and the
30th of October:
Secretary Rush: I'll shift a month. Maybe from the. 5th to the 19th. Also,
Henry, you don't realize the many unproductive demands. upon your time.
You have to go to NATO, to SEATO. Frankly, SEATO will die without
your presence. And CENTO.
Dr. Kissir: I'd like to do CENTO. . To keep it going..
there is a SEATO meeting in New York on the 28th.
Se:cretaryRu s You ought to go to that. You also ought to spend some
time, at the UN. Ism always charged these days by others. wlth,.ignoring
UN.
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Dr. Kissinger: I'd prefer to give the opening speech, stay two or
three days, and then leave it to you the rest of the time.
Secretary. Rush: The world is ;watching to see if you will be interested
in the UN.
Dr. Kissinger: I'll have a lunch for the Arabs, for the Africans, and
for the Latin Americans. I'll want to see as many European foreign
ministers as possible. I'll also want to see Groxnyko. Then I'll want
to have a dinner for all senior delegations. I want to have more fun
than the normal entertainment given by the State Department. Maybe
I can, get some of my entertainment friends to participate. I'll give a
little speech and we'll have some entertainment. i'll want to give a
dinner here for the diplomatic corps, with some entertainment; and I'll
also want to give a dinner for the State press corps.
Secretary Rush: I think you ought to give a dinner. Particularly because
you won't see so much of them. Henry, it will be hazardous for you to
see only the major ambassadors all the time and less of the ambassadors
from the, smaller countries. You ought to let the subject matter determine
.who sees ambassadors.
Dr. Kissiter: What about the legal adviser? Who picked him? I see
that we got a 67 year old lawyer from New York. I wanted a well-known
top lawyer. I suppose it would hurt us in the legal community to pull
him out now, though. Perhaps we can replace him later. Maybe we
could make him an ambassador .in a year,or so.
Secret= Rush: Bill Casey and I picked him. He is not a Rogers man.
Rogers told us.to get him somebody and get him in. - He's already been
in the Department for more than six weeks waiting to be confirmed.
He's left- his firm. Unless you send his name up, it would look very odd.
Dr. Kiissi.ger: OK, let's wait. until I get over there.
hated Hummel and Sneider. I think Sneider is the better of the two, but
Secretary Rush: What about a Marshall Green successor? We've nomi
there is a feeling around that you had a run- in with him.
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Sec eta
Ex, ItuPh_ What do you think of Ingersoll?
Dr, Kissinger: That's one reason I'm waiting. I like him. You and he
are the lest ambassadorial appointments we ever made.
Secretary'. Rush: I talked him into taking the job.
Dr. Kissinger: I have nothing against Sneider. He's tough and he's disloyal.
Every time I saw him in Japan he tore his Ambassador down to me. What
about .iNR? I cannot understand why we need 400 people in Intelligence.
What we need is a small tight outfit that flags things for the Secretary. It
can't: match CIA. It should be pared down to research and monitoring
the efforts of the intelligence community. I also want to have a systems
analysis capability.
Secretary Rush: I agree. I've seen the thing evolve. Cline is pushing
now for an even greater machine. He should be working with the Assistant
Secretaries. My view now is that we should cut the thing back to a small
tight-knit group. Also, you have a mass of assistants to the Secretary
that supposedly report to you. Those should be cut way back; they should
report to someone else. If we get our legislation we can put a lot of them
into the Science Assistant Secretary's slot. We could make them sub-bureau
chiefs.
Henry, it is important that we get Hall out of the. Director General's job.
He ought to retire, but there would be trouble because the foreign service
is watching. He ought to get a good embassy for a year and then retire.
Dr. Kisses r:. I've asked him to come back. I'm asking a number of
Dean Brown would be my choice for that job.
people back.
Secretary Rush: Yes, you'd better ask Graham Martin back o
be getting some screams from him.
Secretary Rush: You must have a strong staff. But, you must get rid
liar. Kissinggr: . OK. Larry, call him back.
of Lissy.
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Dr. , Kissiger:: I agree.
But you should tell him that he'll get a good job.
Secretary Rush: I'll do that. You need very good people. Tom Pickering
will be a very big help to you. He was my"personal choice. You need
FSOs around you. Thus, you should not bring in someone from the NSC.
You can find FSOs.
Dr. Kissinger: There are two problems. One is loyalty. But that
doesn't worry me. But I need someone who, knows my style of work.
haven't got six months to educate people.
[Conversation interrupted by Gwertzxnan call.
Dr. Kissinger: Gwertzman tells me that Rogers is beside himself
about the Alsop article. Will you call him, please, and tell him I had
nothing to do with the article. Tell him,,, too, of my talk with Gwertzman..
be important. You will get loyalty from the Foreign Service.
Secretary Rush: Yes, of course, I will. Henry, the first six weeks will
Dr. Kissin ,er: They have got to understand that they work for me, not
me tor them.
Secretary Rush: You should come into the Department with State people..,
Dr. Kissinger: The key spots will be filled by State people -- except for
two or three who know me and work with me well.
I want to end, the constant talk of prerogatives that goes on in the State
Department.. We must bring up the young people. I 'am not going over
there in an adversary relationship as Dulles did. But painful things need
to be done, and they should be done early, But for the good of the State
Department.
would be to;go over in an adversary relationship.
Secretazry Rush: The worst thing would be to do 'nothing. The next worst
Dt Kis5in er:. They will have to learn to humor me for awhile. We all
gra s I intend to speak to the staff on the first day and have a
is why I am trying to keep Bray. That is why I am working the way I am
conciliation. That is why I said-what I did on Thursday to the press. That
must be working for the country. I am going over there in a spirit of
press conference on the second.
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Secretary Rush: Let me come back to this thing, Henry. One important
thing is that you should not be seen to be putting your total reliance on
those you bring. over from the NSC.
Dr. Kissinger: That is OK for about 90 percent. But I have got to have
two. or three, people. I agree that the Director General is, a key spot and
must be used creatively. It should be filled by an FSO.
Secretary-Rush : It would be a great morale booster to be seen to be
acting in that direction. I am thinking of a strong right-hand man for
you. He would deal with the Executive Secretary for you, with my staff,
with 'Schlesinger, etc. You will be outside the Department and outside
the country often. You will need someone to hold your staff together.
You will need someone for liaison at the Secretarial level, that is, with
the Assistant Secretaries, with me, etc. You have two bats, Henry, and
you must be careful to have someone to coordinate those hats and your .
personal sfaV.
I think you ought to ask Larry to do that job for you. He's highly respected
in the Department. He knows the Pentagon. He knows you. He knows
the NSC staff. I think it would be very important for you to have him
with you.
to replace him on the NSC staff. I'd appreciate it if you'd get me a
suggestion.
Dr, Kissinger: If Eagleburger goes with me, then we'll need someone
Secretary Rush: I want to leave with you the thought that you really must
have a strong personal staff.
Dr. Kissinger: Can' t the Executive Secretariat do it?
Secretary. Rush: No. Not totally. They work for me, too. They work for
staff, with the staff over here and with other departments., is that right?
Dr. Kissinger; You think then that I need someone for liaison with your
Samuels. He handles :a lot of very, sensitive stuff for me. , I'm simply
important who you pick.' I have one political man on ray staff, Mike
Secretary Rush: If you do this which I think you should do, it is terribly
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Secretary Rushy That's fine. I'm going to have the senior people in the
Department up for lunch. I'm going to tell them of our talk and tell
them that we're going to get things moving.
can work would be appreciated.
will be personalized at State, they'll center around you. You have great
prestige. It's in the bag, Henry.
Dr. Kissinger: Anything you can do over the next few days to get people
to suspend judgment over there until I get there and show them how we
Secretary Rush: Frankly, if you do that, within three to six months there
will, be the,highest morale in State that's been seen in our lifetime. Things
Dr ? singer: Ken, all key spots will be filled with Foreign Service
officers. Maybe they'll be younger than they are now, but they'li.be
Foreign Service officers. I want the Foreign Service seen as an elite
service. The best service in town. The preponderance of key slots in
the State Department will go to the Foreign Service.
State supported by the NSC Staff. I want to see the Secretary of State
supported by the State Department.
raising the flag for you, Henry.', I don't want to see the Secretary of
the Loy Henderpons, and so forth. And then I'll want to have another
Dr. Kissinger: I'll want to give a dinner. I'll want toitivite the Bohlens,
our conversation when I go to my meetings with them.
Dr. Kissinger: Ken, I'll want to have breakfast with you next Monday.
Secreta, r Rush: Good. Also, I'm going to tell our Ambassadors about
dinner with the press.
Secretary,, l i sh: Henry, we have to move on MBFR: We have to set up
Dr. Kissinger: I'll check when I get back from San Clemente.
our group. First, has anyone talked to Stan Res or?
Secretary Rush; Then there's Jock Dean. I want to e hi,i t
Deputy Negotiator.
That's OK with me.
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Secretary Rush: Dean is a very good man. By the way, Fred lkl.e wants
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requirement? -
Dr. Kissinger: That's all right with me. But who would do it?
Secretary Rush: He'11 come up with the right man. We'll approve him.
By the way, one of the things that may come up.in your confirmation is
the issue of State's appropriation.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, I know. Wayne Hayes called me about that. He's
rabid. He said we take his compromise or we get no bill. I told him I
hadn't studied the issue. What's our objection to the base agreement
Secretary Rush: If we accept it then the President can't put in any bases
without Congressional approval. If there's an earthquake in Managua
the President can't even send our forces there without Congressional
approval.
? Dr. Kissinger: I have asked Tom Pickering to give me a report on the
big issues that may come up in the confirmation, and on Congressional
hobby horses.. During the confirmation if the question of the budget
comes up I'll 'say I oppose these legislative restrictions, but I'll be glad
to look at them again. Then I'll go back to therri later and turn them
down again.
forth. Lou should be prepared for the worst. It may not happen, but
they may push you on the intimate details of your relationship with the
President. They'll be anxious to confirm you, but they're going to give
in the headlines as they explore wiretapping, Cambodian bombing and so
before the Committee they're not going to give up the opportunity to be
What's your instinct on how the hearings will go, Ken?
Secretary Rush I saw Fulbright while playing golf a few weeks ago.
He said he would be all for your appointment. But when they have you
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