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July 13, 2023
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March 8, 2022
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Publication Date: 
October 18, 1975
Ti g pproved-fo-r-Rele-a-s-e':'2-022./02/61-660'665-17-1-.L::_�-�-: OR GIN AL: � .-- HATIONALSECURITYi2INTORMATION Unauthorized Discicsure'Sul;ject to Criminal Sanctions Wi 1tttifv ittirri.�&itafr Report of Pro-ccedinge Hearing held before Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities Saturday, October 18, 1975 Wz.shington, D. C (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over tz, the Committee for destruction). WA1Z I) & PAUL 410 IIT ST R EET, s. WASHINGTON. 1). C. 20003 1.-(1000 Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 A-. nash 0 4 4 0 1.; �Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 CONTENTS ri�STIMONY OF Sidney Gottlieb --accompanied by-- Terry F. Lenzner, Counsel 1 A PAGE, 2 Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 s".44%; �r, VIARZ".1,".4-%91.0:3�5P0744.4.. 7�.7 shelburnc nash 0 0 3 ���,,P1 0 II Apiroved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 CRET : STAFF INTERVIEW Saturday, October 18, 1975 .,.. ���� - ' I.< - ��� - - ....-Its," .0... .r.",:r�-,..,:',...= ...4.'s � ;Ali* ..,�%- .,-.'.".,-,1'. ,.......-* 1"..;�,-. ...Z.:7 : - ........::1-, r-:'...;�,..v.tir7,-- . '.��.-:;�-�i . . . 1 United States Senate, Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activitlics,- Washington, D. C. The Staff net, pursuant to notice, at 10:2Q a.r in Room G08, Capitol Hill Hotel. Present: Elliot Maxwell and Frederick Baron, Profcssiona) StafE Members. Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 - - pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 CO0095171 1/21.-40.0- � � "'" � :;'"-.r.'�15. :��,.""t1X;r:-..." � := 7.1 TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB; ACCOMPANIED 2 BY TERRY F. LENZNER, COUNSEL -- resumed Mr. Baron. On the record. Dr. Gottlieb, we are resuming now a session that we left i off in the middle yesterday concerning executive action. And before we pick up with the substance of this session, I would like to go through the same formalities with you. u- a_e-aware that you have a-rraht�to counsel. 9 !: Dr. Gottlieb. Yes. , Mr. Lenzner. Yesterday we stipulated to each and every right, advice of counsel, warning and alert regarding Senators being present that we have had on the record the last five times we have been here. And it seems adequate for Elliot. We stipulate and agree to the same directions and advice that we have received on each occasion. Mr. Baron. Then you arc satisfied that you have re- ceived a satisfactory advisory as to rights, and you arc willing to testify without a Senator present? Mr. Lenzner. Yes. Mr. Daron.To pick up, then, where we left off yesterday. 4111111111111111about Executive Action as best we could based on your recollection and any refreshing of your recollection that we can achieve by reviewing these notes and relaying testimony to you. We were at the point where I was asking Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 Mr. Baron. Yes. 4011110 testified that he had a,clear . recollection of being called in by .45.0a,rd Bissell invbarry 1961 to discuss the launching of a Pr1i-ject-toidevelo : assassination capabilities at the CI -in that conversation to take charge o e. the developme44,-. _ , _ . . 'Bissellcalledan Executive Actiom:rrorc,t.:,_ - ~ 0 4 "MN pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 3 you whether the fact that's has testified that the phrase "25/1" On his notes indicates to him that this consideration took place on the 25th of January of a certain year. Is that any help to you in placing the conversation in 5 time? 6 Dr. Gottlieb. Not really. Assuming that is true, 7 and I guess it is, it could have been January or any number 9 r_as I am concerned. Mr. Baron. And the final bit of information I wanted to give you to see if we could refresh your recollection on this subject is the fact that wheneallilialM examined these notes the final time he said that he was "almost certain" that the conversation took place on January 25, 1961. Does that in any way help you place the conversation in time? Dr. Gottlieb. No. Mr. Lenzner. Did he express any factors that helped . him decide that it was that year rather than a prior'o subsequent year that might help Sid? - Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171-- ..44". - � - ; 5 pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 4 was later established under the cryptonum ZRRIFLE. agnift said that it was most likely, based on his recol lection of his activities on Staff D and his shift over to th Cuba task force, that the conversation would have taken place in early 1961. Dr. Gottlieb. I just thought of one other thing. The ? is mention in these notes of the U-2. It is of little help t I feel �Alont s thprr._ T was trying tn rPcplirct_Wh_em 9 I first became aware of the U-2 project. And clearly this 1.3634.4 would have to be after that, if he and I talked about somethi about the U-2. But my goodness, that just puts it in any - n..Imber of years after a date that I can't remember. Mr. Lenzner. I suppose one of the problems, too, is tha Dr. Gottlieb has already testified that he had a conversation with Bissell about something close to this subject, if not directly on it early 1960. So it would not have come -- it not be a singular or aberrational conversation for Dr. Gottlieb to have had this withal's, he obviously had at least one, if not more, conversations of a similar nature prior to this. Mr. Baron. Let me give you One:more'bi.t:O.U:baCkground - _ and sec if this brings anything backif I remind you of th,1 - fact that there was a change of administration on Jarivary 21, 1961, when John Kennedy took office, -:would that help you reca whether your conversation with.41111011Vtook.plicc before or a Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 - v_Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171`'" - - - , . , 5 2 the change of administration? Dr. Gottlieb. That brings up only one association in my mind, and that has nothing to do with this. And that was the snowy night of his inauguration. But I can't hang this on that 5 ' ladder at all. I just don't associate this meeting with that event. 7 Mr. Baron. . So it doesn't help you either way placed onl r-, either side if the inauguration? Dr. Gottlieb. No. Mr. Baron. Let's turn to these cryptic phrases on the of461111.0 and see if you can in for the record notes fill the meaning of any of these phrases or the discussion that surrounded these notations. At the top oft"... notes it says, 'Exec Actions". Do you have a clear recollection of using the phrase l'304(01Executive Action" when you discussed assassination capability . withal]." 0 0 0 6 " i 2 : Dr. Gottlieb. No, I do not. Mr. Baron. Did inform inform you that he was estab- I lishing a project to develop assassination capabilities? Dr. Gottlieb. I really don't remember that. In those terms I remember the conversation being a sort of a wondering one. It was clear to me that he wanted to know what I under- stood the capability.of the clandestine service in this general area to 1>e. TO � Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 13(0(4) pproved for Release-72022/02/01 C00095171 CRET 6 But my recollection is that he wondered all over the lot, asking what I was doing, and talking about things having nothing .to do with assassination. Mr. Baron. Once more for the record I would like to 5 ask you, what recollection do you have of anything that you 6 41111001frsaid dealing with assassinations or assassination 7 capabilities? and Dr. Gottlieb. I don't have any specific recollection, 9 I really don't. I can only make an assumption that I went C lc � over the materials at Camp Detrick, because that was the only capability we had that was relevant. Mr. Baron. So you assume that you would have explained. r- to 4111111.11110, the nature of the lethal, or potentially lethal, 14 ! or incapacitating materials that the CIA processed or had:. 1( :7.; 1.341X i access to? Dr. Gottlieb. But even that assumption. Mr. Baron. amp said that although he didn't have completely firm recollection on this point, he thought that a this conversation was held at your request upon your taking a new job. And I will read you his testimony on this subject o3 to see if this at all refreshes your recollection as tow took the initiative for the conversation or when it too page 53 in one of his early transcr1p15: recall this converSation, this was a -*sort ECRET Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 �: 0=47:2.ali4W;V:lttaeze.04.741,6i.4.A.;t .734:17a pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 of an exchange of ideas in briefing session probably held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual Chief of TSD,which was the Technical Services Division of he received instructions from Bissell to create an Executive Action capability, and that Bissell told leimmthat Dr. Gottlieb had already been discussions, and that he should talk with Dr. Mr. Baron. I think that that is an accurate rendition of But despite that act, he maintains that this particular was occasioned by a switch of jobs. become Chief of TSD until at Mr. Baron. Approved forRelease: 20 Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171;1...- . Dr. Gottlieb. I moved back from TSD from Bissell's :ffice. I would have said it would have been after this date Mr. Baron. When you say this date -- Dr. Gottlieb. best .I can say to that question that might be helpful, if you look at the notes, which we haven't ;one through, a good many of them refer to work I was doing t the time in my job as scientific advisor to Bissell. things mentioned here were not TSD projects. Mr. Baron. So this review of the notes then does help you bracket the time frame of this meeting with greater specificity than you were able to do yesterday, in that you know that this conversation must have occurred before you left. your position as science advisor to Richard Bissell? thing is chat I was probably in that job. by thCse notes asking mc what my job was. Because I-sec him 11�1%-12ZAA4---.'r : pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171- - ���� _ Net.) r ECRET.: 9 Mr. Baron. Once again, during what period of time were 2 you science advisor to Bissell? Dr. Gottlieb. To the best of my memory, I would say that would be in the period of late 1959 or early 1960 to about the middle of 1961. Mr. Baron. So would it be your assumption now that your 7 conversation with Harvey that is memorialized in these notes 8 9 10 nod of time? Dr. Gottlieb. That would be an assumption. Mr. Baron. Returning to the notes, then, what does the 11 phrase "magic button" refer to? Dr. Gottlieb. I know of no project capability or technique that we referred to by that name. And it doesn't 14 mean anything to me. Mr. Baron. We have discussed the narcotics bureau. ! 1 � Do you know what "for a living" would refer to? 1.3(a)(41. � Dr. Gottlieb. I am sorry. Mr. Baron. The next note says "RIS 201 cover". AndllOplphas testified that that referred to the Russian Intelligence Service. , Do you have any recollection ,of,a discussion of the - . .., - ., ..-� :, Russian Intelligende Service in the context of assassination planning? Dr. Gottlieb. No. But I don't know whether you have an 'testimony on-the 201 at all. But that means to me a 201 fil( TOP Approved for Release: 2022/02/01 C00095171 , - pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 C000951 - Aar 3,A,1. AL.- � ot_ler,..*". erce,A�ir li3(0(4) C Do you recall any such conversations? Dr. Gottlieb. Mr. Baron. I don't believe that he did. I would say here he might be talking I believe, to the bankruptcy of operational planning or pur- suit that would lead to trying an assassination. And it dicated to him that he was not in favor of assassination planning at that point. Do you recall any discussion like that with hir? Dr Cottlieb No Mr -Baron He has characterized his 'discussion wl you as "a general philosophic discussion of assassination and ai-sassination techniques" And he didn't mention the � ;*.n. � Approved for Release. 2022/02/01 C000951 1 - � -�:-.:3�� ' ..s pproved for Release: 2022/C12761 C0009517 - 0,...'���'�04-047���;